How Seller Surveys Could Reshape Residential Surveying ft. Dan Knowles | The Surveying Shift Ep. 6

What happens if seller surveys become the norm in the UK property market, and what does that mean for residential surveyors who have built their reputation on quality, buyer-focused advice? 

In this episode of The Surveying Shift, host Louis Blaxill sits down with Dan Knowles FRICS, Director and Residential Surveyor, and founder of Webster Surveyors and Sawyer Fielding, to unpack the government’s proposed home buying reform and what it could mean for the future of residential surveying.

Dan breaks down why these conversations are back on the table, what changed since the era of Home Information Packs, and why a shift to seller-led surveys could reshape competition, quality, recruitment, and client expectations across the profession. From the risks facing smaller independent firms to the role of estate agents, upfront information, report clarity, and AI, this is a practical, honest conversation for surveyors who want to stay ahead of change and protect the value they deliver.

If you want to understand seller surveys, residential surveying reform, property market change, and how to future-proof your surveying practice, this episode gives you the context, the caution, and the practical thinking you need.

Webster Surveyors
Sawyer Fielding

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Transcript

Coming up...

SPEAKER_00 0:00

If that digital camera has a fault on it, I take it back to the shop. I get a refund. You can't do that with a host.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

That is Dan Knowles, Frix, residential surveyor, entrepreneur, and successful founder of not one but two surveying practices, Webster Surveyors and Sawyer Fielding. In today's episode, we discussed how the shift to stellar surveys has the potential to completely change the residential surveying market as we know it. And how the shift could remove the incentive to produce high quality work.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

A lot of these really small companies, some of them provide an absolutely fantastic level of service. They've got what I'd call a lifestyle company. They're quite happy of doing two or three reports a week to a very, very good quality. That sort of model is probably not going to work.

Meet Dan Knowles

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Today, Dan outlines what the government's proposed tele-survey reform really means for residential surveyors and which firms are at greatest risk of being left behind. By the end of the episode, we will have covered what's changing, why it matters, and what you can do to protect your practice before the market shifts beneath you. I'm Louis Blaxil, and this is the Surveying Shift. Welcome to this episode of The Surveying Shift. I'm Louis Blaxil, CEO at Go Report, and I'm very lucky today to be joined by Dan Knowles, F Rix, director, residential surveyor, entrepreneur, and founder of not one but two very successful surveying practices, Webster Surveyors and Sawyer Fielding. Dan, I appreciate I've already stolen some of your thunder, but would you like to do a quick introduction to yourself?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Well, thanks for inviting me on today. I'll be very happy to talk. I think everything you said is perfectly accurate, so I won't really expand on that. The only thing I suppose I will say uh is I I'm often told that if you need three opinions, ask two surveyors. Uh but if you ask me, you'll get four opinions. Uh so uh hopefully I've got a lot to say today.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Well, yes, we will we'll try and stick to time, but that's uh that's a very good place to start. And um, you know, I think you're incredibly well positioned to comment on the topic we're discussing today. Um so there's a lot of change going on in the in the broader residential sector at the moment over the what's looking like the next couple of years. Today's episode is going to focus on the government's proposed uh home buying reform. Obviously, a a topic that will impact a number of uh well everyone in the industry if it does come to fruition. Um what we'd like to do is start with the context, we'll then go into the potential implications, and then we'll talk about how surveying or residential surveying practices can prepare, and how indeed you and your firms are preparing um for the potential changes that that may come in. Just one caveat and we'll do a separate podcast on this, but we're gonna keep the um RICS proposed home survey standards reform uh separate. So we're gonna focus purely on the government side of things today. Um, Dan, if you could kick us off with the context as to why, why are these conversations happening? Have they happened before? What's different today?

Why home buying reform is back

SPEAKER_00 3:06

Okay, well, of course, we've been here before uh in 2007 with the introduction of home information packs, uh, which themselves were going to have a condition survey of some kind. Uh now we'll we'll no doubt come on to that in a bit more detail later on in the podcast, anyway. But we have a similar situation now, and I think surveyors, we're we're almost being caught in the crossfire uh by government. Uh now government have a very admirable uh desire here, really, to increase the speed that transactions go through because sales do take too long and they do take a lot longer uh in the UK than they do elsewhere. Um I think that's that that's there for everyone to see.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

And there are too many fall throughs as well uh compared to other countries. That's there for everyone to see. So I don't think anyone can really argue against let's take measures to provide some upfront information to make sales quicker. Now, how much of that is down to the surveyor, and how much of that is down to other professionals? So, for example, whether local searches should be provided up front and the property information uh forms, the law society protocol forms, whether they should be provided up front. There's certainly an argument to, and it's one I'd agree with, that not many sales really get delayed or fall through as a result of the survey reports. Uh, we're we're providing a relatively small part of that process. But because governments are looking at how can we speed up everything, and the way that they see that working is let's provide more upfront information, uh, we're being caught in that in those crossfires. So, can we provide um uh an upfront sellers survey of some kind um or some kind of condition report? It is quite interesting that government aren't really calling it a seller survey. That's something that within the RICS, yeah, Facebook groups and the like, we're all calling it uh because we remember uh back in 2007, uh, but what they're actually talking about is a condition report. Uh and there's a couple of schools of thought about what's going to be included within that. So, do do we go all out? Uh and it's very similar to what we provide right now, in accordance with the home survey standard, and uh, and of course that's gonna be changing as well, and and there could be extra things that that we're going to need to provide if that comes through. Uh, or do we go with something that might be far more like similar to a a level one survey?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

You mentioned 2007, and uh I've had numerous conversations inevitably with with customers uh and surveyors more broadly around 2007, what happened then, you know, why it it lost momentum? And also the I suppose the there are two ends of the spectrum for people. Some are saying it's definitely gonna happen, it's an inevitability, I need to prepare for it now, and and we need to get moving on it. Others are going, like it's still in the very early stages, and with government uncertainty and elections and everything else, who knows whether it's even going to come into fruction. Do you do you think it is materially different from 2007 and where do you stand on the likelihood? Appreciate you know it's crystal ball uh territory. But do you think there's anything materially different to suggest that there will be change this this time around?

SPEAKER_00 6:38

I think it is very different to 2007. We live in a very different world now. Um, we live in a far more digital world than we used to. Uh, we've now got AI uh coming through as well. I think it's far easier to provide upfront information than it used to be. Uh and back back back in 2007 when home information packs were introduced, and and originally conditional ports were in them as well, but but of course they weren't compulsory, so some provided it, some didn't. I remember when estate agents used to send these out, and half the time they would send them out by PDF, and half the time they they would post them out in in paper copy. Uh, and when they posted them out in paper copy, they'd be posting them out along with a lot of other documentation as well. Uh, and Joe Bloggs, who's selling who's selling a property or buying somewhere, is just going to get this mountain load of paperwork. They don't understand half of it, uh, and there's so much all in one go, uh it becomes unwieldy. Um, and I'm not really surprised that it didn't work back then. Uh, but of course, the one thing we do still have from 2007 uh are the EPCs. Uh because when when when hips were abandoned, I think I think it was in 2010 from memory, hips were abandoned, but the EPC stayed. Now, uh with with at risk of upsetting a few EPC providers, uh, I'm sure I'm sure even the most ardent of them will will acknowledge that there is there's more disparity between best and worst than even there is with within the surveying market as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

If it's any consolation, I don't think we'll get many EPC listeners. So I don't know. So you're right.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

I can offend at Will.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

I think so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Well, of course, ePCs are so cheap to provide because by uh because sellers think, well, we've got to have one of these, uh, so we don't really want to pay a lot of money for them. And with them being cheap to provide, the only way it's been economically viable for EPC providers to to do these at scale uh is to cut corners. Yeah. And there are so many EPCs which are are very, very, very poorly written. But if we think that they were introduced in 2007, we're 19 years on now, and those problems have not been resolved. So are we confident enough that if sellers' surveys or whatever you want to call them, let's call them seller surveys for the purpose of today. Uh, if if they're introduced, are we confident enough that if they don't work as well as they should do, that there's going to be the the political will to change how they are provided? Or 19 years later, is there going to be a similar podcast to this where someone else is going to be saying, oh yeah, those seller surveys, they've been terrible. They shouldn't have been introduced.

Will buyers really push back?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

It's an interesting one because I do hear that comparison between EPCs and and the notion of seller surveys. I hope and I believe that that surveys are so much more intrinsic to the value of the property, the um I suppose the outgoings of the individual who's buying and selling the property going forward, that you know, there would be an outcry if survey surveys became meaningless and you know people were buying properties with very poor information and then being left with quite large bills post-purchase. So I I I mean, I don't know how you feel about that, but my my innate belief is that people would be more or push back harder than they potentially would with EPCs.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Yeah, I I think there will be pushback, but we also have to look at what's happened elsewhere in uh within Europe and and even even closer, what's happened, what's happened in Scotland, where they have seller surveys there. Uh buyer surveys are extremely few and far between. Uh now the prices for those seller surveys actually aren't too bad. They're probably a little bit less than what you typically typically pay somewhere in England. Uh, but the quality of the quality of them, and I I've seen quite a number of these in my research, they're they're a little bit above a level one survey. And actually, we don't even provide level one surveys at Webster surveyors, and a lot of companies don't.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

A number of people don't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

Because the market does doesn't really see the demand for them. Uh people want higher quality information. Uh, but up in Scotland, of course, it because it's the sellers who are commissioning those surveys, a seller's motivation and a buyer's motivation are very, very, very, very different. Buyers want us to find things wrong. So partly so they they think, okay, well, the thousand thousand five hundred or so that they paid us is money well spent. Um, uh, and they they can potentially renegotiate or they can potentially budget for whatever they're gonna have to do, yeah. Uh, but also buys that bit of bit of credibility as well. Uh a Estella doesn't. Uh a a Stella will want a tick box exercise to to give it a clean bill of health.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, and that's a real concern, I think, in particular for for the independence and and the smaller practices, that's a real concern, particularly for those who have built themselves on really high quality um buyer surveys for uh want of a better phrase. Um who, yeah, as I said, uh uh pride themselves on five-star reviews of having really served the the purchaser well, you know, all of a sudden, and it won't be overnight, but even over the course of a year or two, you know, that flip being now the onus on the seller, not hiding imperfections, certainly, or or defects, but yeah, you could understand and why people would perhaps stray away from people who've been more stringent in the past. I mean, is that a concern that you hold because I know Webster's uh have a very good reputation in the market for producing very thorough and high quality reports? Is that a concern for you and how do you plan on on mitigating that?

SPEAKER_00 12:58

It is a concern. Um, yeah, we do pride ourselves on quality over quantity. So we're we're one of those firms who we will only ever do one survey per day, uh per surveyor, sometimes less than that. And that's because every morning when I went when I wake up and and I decide, well, uh this is what I'm gonna do in running my company today, I want to be proud of the service that we offer. I want to go to bed at night thinking, yeah, we've genuinely helped the end user. And the end user here has to be the buyer, because they're the ones who are gonna be lumbered with a property if they buy it, and if there are defects, they're the they're the ones who are then gonna have to potentially pay to get those repaired. I don't really want to go to bed at night thinking, yeah, we've we've done two or three surveys today on a seller survey, which is going to be quite different to what we provide right now, and we're not really helping the people who really need it the most. Uh, I'll probably go to bed on a bed made of banknotes if we do. So with my business owner's hat on, uh, seller surveys would be a fantastic thing. Because we're one, we're one of those companies that we're we're fortunate enough to be large enough that we will be able to get those times with with estate agents and solicitors and and we'll be able to work at sculpture, but that's not what I want to do. I I don't want to work at scale to make to make money. I I want to be able to provide a good quality service for the person who matters the most here, which has to be the buyer.

What happens to smaller firms?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Is there a an assurance or a uh a silver lining, albeit potentially small, for the the smaller firms? I know you you are of a scale, as you said, that you could you could operate in a market that is predominantly led by seller surveys, but for the smaller surveyors who are concerned about um their position within the market, and I suppose you look at Scotland and look at the way that that market's consolidated, is there a silver lining perhaps in the volume of surveys that are going to be required? You know, we talked before we jumped on on the podcast about the the number of surveys completed in purchases at the moment being between 10 and 20 percent um across the market. You know, if again, even if it's over two years, the government say we now need a survey of some kind, however high level, for every single purchase, that is gonna have a massive impact on demand. And you know, almost every surveyor in the market is is gonna be rushed off their feet, you would assume, depends how they manage it and depends how it plays out. But I'd I'd be interested to get your take on on that side of things.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

I think there will be. Uh now, over time though, I I suspect, and I'm sorry to say, I suspect a lot of these really small practices will end up being pushed out because over time, when more surveyors do come on the market, they're going to go to the larger firms. Uh we might find instances where uh estate agents start employing their own surveyors uh because well that the sellers are coming to them anyway. We we might we might find solicitors who tie up closely with with surveyors as well because of the volume of these. Uh, we're gonna find a lot of the really, really big players in the market uh all trying to grab as many surveyors as they possibly possibly can. So when the new ones come along, they're not gonna go to the one, two man bands very often. They're gonna go to the big companies. And and actually a lot of these really, really small companies who some of them provide absolutely fantastic level of service because a bunch of them have got what I'd call a lifestyle company. They're quite happy, maybe doing two or three reports a week to a very, very, very good quality, uh then charging a pretty penny for them as well, and it's warranted. Uh, that sort of model is probably not going to work when we're looking at um what's gonna be little more than a level one survey, uh, technically. Uh and actually a lot of these people who who provide these, uh, that uh a lot of them are very old school. They uh then they're not so keen on the valuation side, they are fantastic with their building pathology knowledge. But if they get told with a new seller survey, you've got to provide a valuation as well, how many of them are are then going to retrain? Or how many of them will say, actually, no, I I think I've I've had I've had enough now. That's the sort of profession we're in. It's getting it is getting older and older.

Could a Norway style model work?

SPEAKER_01 18:05

And the combination of that, and and you know, rightly so, they're commanding high fees for really high quality surveys and uh an exemplary service, but if you combine the would you like to retrain and then do higher volumes plus uh for for lower fees, because the market is is just that much more competitive. I I I I'm inclined to agree with you and I am searching for for silver linings, and the only other solace I can I can find, I suppose, is you know, if we look at if we look beyond Scotland, if we look beyond these these aisles, and we look at uh you mentioned Belgium before when we were speaking, you know, Norway has a has a um an effective model in place where the the value of the surveyor is critical, particularly to the to the seller because of liability. Is there a I suppose two questions? One, let's suspend reality for a moment, and if that were to come in, do you think that would have an impact and then come back down to earth with a crash and say two, whether you think that is a viable option for England and Wales?

SPEAKER_00 19:03

I would certainly prefer something that's more similar to the Belgium or the nor or the Norwegian model, where I'm I think it's sellers on sellers are on the hook for 10 years um after a survey is produced for for any any defects that the surveyor does not identify. So it's in the seller's interest to get a decent quality surveyor. Uh but of course there's a difference between identifying a defect and reporting on it well. So I I I can go to the back of a big house and say, here's a big crack, I've identified it. But then if the next person says, Here's the same crack, I've uh I'd I've identified it, and here's lots of information about what you can do about it and what's causing it, that level of detail is is in is incredibly important, and and that may be missing even with something like the the Belgian or or the Norwegian model. Uh what I would like to see is yes, seller surveys can happen, but seller surveys happen on the basis of the RICS home survey standard. Yeah, it doesn't get dumbed down to a level one survey. Now we we we could probably discuss separately, and I think you've got this on another podcast on on whether the home survey standard is is going to be appropriate or not.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

We might have to get you back on the maybe, yeah.

Why are so few buyers getting surveys?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Um uh but even with the home survey standard as it stands right today, that is a hell of a lot better than a level one survey. Uh and and if seller surveys don't happen, what I would like to see is I'd like to see more encouragement for for people to actually have surveys. The idea of 10 to 20 percent of buyers having a survey now is absolutely horrendous. And I I'm thinking when I've bought properties in the past and and and I might be going on viewings with up to in other people at the same time, but bearing in mind we work in London, uh, and that there have been times in the London market where you might get 10 minutes on a viewing and you're viewing at the same time as hard with other people. Yeah. Uh I I I'm into my photography. Um uh I've spent far longer looking at buying a digital camera for maybe a thousand pounds or so that that than I have viewing a house.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Running on it.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, if that digital camera has a fault on it, I take it back to the shop and get I get a refund. You can't do that with you can't do that with a house. So the idea of that there only being ten to twenty percent, that is horrendously low for something as important as hundreds of thousands of pounds, if not millions of pounds, that you're spending. Everyone should be suggesting get a survey. Uh solicitors should should be suggesting it. And that there's actually with within the law society rules, the law society rules actually recommend that solicitors advise people to get a survey. But do they? Not very often.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

It's again an interesting one in in the sense that there's a I wouldn't say it's go as far as to say there's a conflict of interest, but in the interest of it being a smooth purchase and someone having not off their own back got a survey. I'd imagine from a a legal perspective, or if you're a less scrupulous lawyer, let's say, you know, there there is an interest in in not adding in extra complications and and more things that they then have to go and research. Discover, iron out, whatever it may be. So I I agree. And that the the the guidance is there, but you're absolutely right, it's not being um implemented perhaps as it should.

What would a seller survey actually include?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

It is, but then having said that, a lot of solicitors also work on work on an hourly rate basis. So the more the more they have to investigate, the uh the better it works. And um I I I know I'm I'm not on this podcast to to to plug your own service go report, but it it's a service we use ourselves. Uh and one of the things that we set up with with your developers is we have our own solicitors report. Yeah. So it's an extraction from the main report, a a summary purely aimed at helping the solicitors speed up the process.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

No, and that works really well. Yeah, and solicitors love it. Clients love it.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah, anything that will that will speed up the process, absolutely. So, I mean, some quite significant implications for for residential surveyors. Um, we've talked about the condition survey or seller survey likely resembling a home buyer level one. Is there anything else that you would expect? Uh I mean, we're in an interesting stage where we've got customers coming to us saying, look, we know this is on the horizon, we'd like to start thinking about offering something so that we're ready and we've got a presence in the in the market. Um, what what do you expect to see in that uh that seller survey?

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Because we already deal with um questionnaires for sellers, uh, and because some of the extra things government are talking about uh in introducing with upfront information, I imagine some of that's going to fall to the surveyor. Uh so for example, lit uh leasehold information. So it may well be for the surveyor to report, well, uh the ground rent is X mount, uh, and it increases in 24 years' time to this amount, and uh and then so many years later it it then increases again, or maybe it increases by by RPI or or whatever, what whatever other metric. Uh but whilst I think that sort of information is is useful, uh, and I I think a little bit a little bit of information can be dangerous. Um a lot of information can be even more dangerous sometimes. Um it depends how it how it is used. So so let's picture the situation where a seller survey is reporting on on the ground rent for a leasehold property. Uh and let's suspend for the moment that uh there may be a grand rent cap coming in at£250, may or may not happen. Um and seller surveys could come in before then, anyway. Uh so let's pretend for a moment that we're writing a survey report and we're having to advise that the grand rent reaches a certain level at a certain time. Uh I've dealt with I've dealt with grand rents that in many, many years' time to come reach millions of pounds per year. I I think the highest I had was about£2.3,£2.4 million per per year as a as a grand rent.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

No one reading that ill-informed, I imagine, is uh eye watering.

Why upfront information still needs context

SPEAKER_00 25:52

Yeah, absolutely. So so if you're a seller and you've got a document from a surveyor saying the grand rent's going to reach£2.4 million, even in 200 and something years' time, you're gonna know that, well, hang on a minute, buyers are really gonna be put off by this. Am I gonna be able to sell my property at all? Uh but what the seller might not realise, and what the buyer might not realise, that is that with that being so far in the future, uh a lease extension probably isn't gonna cost them anywhere remotely near how much they think it's going to. So I think that particular example where it was reaching 2.3, 2.4 million, I think we settled the lease extension for£14,000,£15,000 or so from memory. So I think if we are providing upfront information, we then need to also be able to provide additional information to put that in context, to be able to say, yes, okay, this may look horrible, but there's a way around it. And similarly, if if I give you one other lease old example, uh if in a if in a survey we're writing here's a block of flats that there is no uh reserve fund, no annual sinking fund on, and here's an identical block of flats that we've just done a survey on that uh that does have a reserve fund. Well, for the seller, they they they will know that if those two properties are on the market at the same time, chances are the buyer is gonna go for the one with the lower service charge because everything else is the same.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Up front and it, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Yeah, but the property with no service charge probably isn't managed as well because they're not paying anything into that reserve fund. So years later, when there's a massive problem with the roof, they're gonna be hit with a section 20 bill. Whilst the other block isn't. So what that might encourage is some uh groups of uh uh let's say share freeholders, for example, uh to say, well, actually, we don't want a reserve fund. We want to manage our building really poorly because a number of us are gonna want to sell in the next few years, uh, and we want our properties to look a bit better when when they're up for sale. Uh and that's that's short-term thinking. So I think if we do have this information up front, there's gonna need to be some massive health warnings with it as well. Like you buy a buy a pack of cigarettes, you get a health warning on the on the back. You don't get anything when you when you buy a house.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yeah, I mean you know, evidence would suggest otherwise, but if the information in the seller pack is so cursory and so high level, is there a chance, given that buyer surveys are between 10 and 20% at the moment, that that volume will maintain because the the information will be so cursory, and you know, to your point, like there's a big crack down the back of the building, I've noted it, that's fine, move on. Do you think there's a chance that would inspire buyers to then go, okay, right? Well, I need a professional to come and explore this because that's you know, I like I love the house, it could be nothing, I could be getting a reasonable deal here, but I can't in good conscience progress with it without having it explored further.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

There is a chance, and and and I and I hope that does happen. I think practice elsewhere in places like Scotland, for example, suggested that it won't. Uh and and my fear is let let's let's take that that buyer. Uh that buyer would then be coming to us as a firm as a surveyor saying, I've already got something which is of some value. It may not be what I want, the seller survey, but I've got something some value. Are they going to pay us the same amount of money as they would have if they didn't have anything at all? I'm not sure they would do. I I think they might be more likely to come to us and say, uh, here's condition reports. I'm concerned about one thing in particular that it says, can you give me a separate defect report purely on this? Uh and may maybe that maybe there'll be more of that type of work.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Quite potentially. But you know, that still impact or would have a significant impact. Um Okay, uh, I mean, yeah, you've said uh likely outcome is is something akin to a level one, which is is high-level information. Preference would be, you know, there'll be some kind of mandate of minimum of level two. What what do you want to see from both the government and the RICS in terms of managing this reform and and making sure that if it does take place it's done effectively?

Should older homes need a higher level survey?

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Okay, well, I think from the RICS, uh I'd like to see suggestions that it doesn't actually need to be more than a level two, that they need to be property specific. Uh so I don't know it to take an extreme example, if it's uh a 16th century detached cottage with uh um with uh with all sorts of problems, make maybe a thatched roof. Uh want to have anyone doing a level two on that in a million years. Uh but even something like a late late Victorian, even something like a late Victorian property, maybe there needs to be some kind of cutoff where we say properties of a certain age have to have a level three set.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

And under that age, there's there's some discretion. So yeah, if it's 1970s house that is in terrible condition, then there's discretion for a level two or level three. Uh and some surveyors may turn it, may turn it down on a level two basis. Uh, I think it is important to have a sufficient lead-in period, and the RSES have talked about um in their submission they'd want two years after this is introduced for for the sellers surveys to come in. That's in theory to how to give the likes of Sava and and others enough time to really train people up. Um, I don't think that's enough time to be honest. Uh two years is very, very little if we're going to be dealing with potentially five, six, seven times as many surveys as as we have now, uh, unless they get dumbed down to such such a point where where they're bait barely worth anything at all.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

And I it the the other challenge that we have at the moment, more broadly as an industry, is you know, that there are plenty of surveys out there, even at the 10, 20% that are being done currently, and it's still difficult to attract and recruit people into the residential surveying industry. Uh, I'm sure you managed to snap up some good talent, but I know from speaking to people that you know really good surveyors are are hard to come by and hard to keep. So it's uh you know, even if they have two years, you know, at the start of those two years, there's got to be a big marketing drive, recruitment drive to push people into the industry in a world in which uh I suppose the the jam doesn't come until two years down the line. So it doesn't really matter almost how long that lag is unless there is obviously money and people are drawn to that that demand or that increased demand, it's gonna be really challenging to meet that.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah, it it will, and and I suppose there's two concerns though. And first of all, will people make the gamble of I'm gonna retrain as a surveyor because in a couple of years' time, if I qualify, there's gonna be a gravy train because there's gonna be a shortage. So will people make that gamble? Uh bearing in mind that they're relying on politicians for that gamble to be successful. Uh right now we have a Labour government. The last government was was Conservatives who are the people who got rid of hips. Uh the next government uh may be reform if the polls are to be believed, and regardless of what anyone thinks of them, and I'm not going to get into that. Uh no one really yeah, no one really knows right now uh where they stand on things like this. Uh will will this current government even last the three and a half years until the next general election is due? Um that the the five the five-year term is is a standard, but it can be earlier, uh, and it often has been. Yeah. So a lot can change. So one will will people actually give that gamble of yes, I'm going to retrain in the hope that this does come in. Uh knowing that back in 2007, when people started to try and retrain, uh and home information packs came in, well, in 2010 that they were abandoned. Um, so it's the a lot of people who retrained just wasted a lot of money, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And felt let down, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

The other issue is if you if you need an awful lot of people to be retraining all at the same time, uh, that's gonna create a lot of problems. It's gonna create problems for how do you train them? Are there enough people who can who can provide that? It's gonna create problems for how do you attract the right types of people, because I dare say you're gonna get a lot of the wrong types of people as well. Uh, you're gonna get people who really should not be surveyors who still try to get through the process. Uh, and and that that could reduce the quality. I'm also old enough, and this is showing my age now, but I'm I'm also old enough to to remember uh uh an example back in the mid-1980s and in 1986, where that there was uh uh an economy. Um I'm going the other side of the world now in what was Russia at the time, where lots and lots and lots of people had to train in a very short space of time because the Russian government said we've got a five-year program uh that we want to be the best in the world at a particular thing. Uh and that they had a lot of substandard people do the training and they cut an awful lot of corners. Now that that program was the nuclear program, uh, and those people were for a nuclear power station called Chernobyl. Uh, and look what happened there.

How should surveying firms prepare now?

SPEAKER_01 36:01

A chilling comparison, certainly, and and well, yeah, I mean, obviously not one that would be as dramatic in in in terms of the the scale of the disaster, but uh a useful reference point in terms of you can't just switch uh you know switch things that require expertise on overnight.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, well much much more recently than that. We we we we can look we can look at COVID and all the people who needed to retrain for for different things at the time and the amount of money that was was wasted by government then.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I have throughout this trying to find silver linings. I'm not sure I've done it particularly successfully, uh more as devil's advocate than anything. I suppose question for you then, uh and if I could ask you to apply wear even more hats in this scenario. So one of the kind of smaller independent survey, what what would you do to prepare? And then the other hat would be you know slightly more uh larger surveying firm like like Websays, what are you doing to prepare for these potential changes?

SPEAKER_00 37:02

I think for small independent firms, I think those those uh connections with estate agents in particular, to a lesser extent, solicitors, are going to be incredibly important. Yeah. Uh I dare say estate agents may prove to be the gatekeeper of a lot of these surveys. Uh because just like now estate agents often recommend the EPC providers, I think they will also recommend the surveyors as well. Uh now the big chains of estate agents will will no doubt have their head offices telling them these are the firms that you've got to go with. They're gonna have little control. Uh, but the smaller, independent estate agents are gonna have more control, so they may well be able to recommend that uh the local surveyor. Uh but one of the issues with estate agents is that they often want referral fees, uh, which then cuts into the profit that you make. Uh, and some surveyors are comfortable with them, some aren't. Uh, I would actually like to see government say that if seller surveys get introduced that that um those fees are banned. Uh, because I I think it gives the estate agents a conflict of interest, where estate agents can be putting putting firms forward who are going to pay them a referral fee, or estate agents can be putting people forward who um who are going to give their sellers an easy ride.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

I mean, there's a there's a risk that happens irrespective of fees. I completely agree in terms of the conflict of interest and and incorrect incentives on the on the fees side of things. Yeah. The challenge is whether whether you know estate agents will will opt for um cutting those corners irrespective of the fees.

Why old school reporting may not survive

SPEAKER_00 38:50

We've had some real scare stories with it with estate agents where they've asked for ridiculous amounts in in referral fees, and and they've even we've even had one, and I I won't name the name, but we we had one who suggested well if you if you increase your fees by£250 to£300 across the board, we'll we'll tell the client that they have to go with you. And that's first of all, that's unethical. So we're not gonna do that. And and and secondly, that's a huge amount of money. And what what if that client then came comes to us separately uh without us knowing about the estate agent and and then gets a fee£250-300 lower? Yeah, it's it's it's it's not gonna go well. Estate agents are naturally salespeople, yeah, and street scientists have not. So they can look for things like that. Yes, solicitors are far less likely to want referral fees, it's the the way that their business operates. Uh they're great partners to have. Uh, I I think it's also important, uh, and I'd say this for for all firms of surveyors, not just the small ones, but to be able to report really efficiently. Uh if if we look a number of years ago when when iPad surveyors first first came in, and there were so many of what what I call old school surveyors who threw their hands up, oh no, don't don't don't don't like this, this isn't isn't the way things are done. Like I'll be pen and paper forever and then type something up in Microsoft Word. Uh that is not going to work if fees need to be at a level where you need to do the work quickly, and if volume needs to be at a level where you can't afford to be doing just one survey per day, you need to be going and doing two or three surveys. So it seems to you need you need that technology as well. And similarly, how can firms differentiate themselves? So, for example, we use drones, which I think increasingly more and more surveyors are using. Um but there's still a lot of surveyors who don't use drones and and are scared by the idea. Well, you you can buy a DJI Mini, if I can get my words out, um uh Mini 4 for I think they're about 350 pounds or so. Um uh insurance is dirt dirt dirt cheap. You can take tech take a test to become uh a certified drone pilot, which is a multiple choice, it's very, very simple. Uh you even get to then go down the pub with your mates and say, Yeah, I'm I'm a pilot. Fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, yeah. I I I've definitely used that one with friends before. People need to differentiate themselves uh to the to the rest of the market. But people also need to work out how can how can we afford to provide this service in a cost-effective manner if the people who were instructing us are more cost sensitive than the people who instruct us now are. Because the sellers, they are going to be cost sensitive, more so than buyers, because they don't get the benefit. Um, and we've also got to then be thinking about well, what what about all the all the things after you've provided a survey? So what about the post-survey call, for example? So so right now we'll provide a report on I don't know, a Tuesday, uh, and by the end of the week, we're we're on the phone with a client for half an hour, maybe an hour, talking about what they've read through in the report. That's all well and good because chances are we probably saw them saw the property last week, it's fresh in our memory. Uh, but with a seller survey, that survey might be done months even before the property comes to market, or certainly months before they find a buyer. And if the buyer then comes to us and says, I'd like to talk to you about the survey that you did for the seller half a year ago.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah.

Can AI improve survey quality and speed?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Uh, and we've surveyed lots and lots and lots of properties since, we're not gonna remember it that well. We're we we're gonna have to go over our notes. So I I I know that uh that those site notes are gonna be even more important than they are right now because you're refreshing your memory from from a long time ago, not from a few days or a week ago. Um, how do you price that in? Um that that there's one school of thought to say, well, you're not my client, I'm only gonna talk to the seller, not gonna talk to you. But that's not gonna go down well with with the seller. Uh when they find out, that's then gonna get back to the estate agent, and then the estate agent might not recommend you. So they're gonna want you to talk to the buyer. So how do you price that? Um uh and who pays for that? So do you then recharge the seller an extra amount to talk to the buyer? Or do you charge the buyer directly? Um, but then if you're charging the seller, uh I if you charge an upfront fee on day one when you do the survey to include a post-survey call with someone else, what if that sale falls through? And then there's another buyer who comes along three or four months later, and another, and another, and another, and you keep having the same damned phone calls, uh, and eventually you're looking at a you're looking at your site notes from something that you saw a year, year and a half ago.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

You can't remember what like Yeah, short of well, I mean that that is gonna be key, taking a lot of photos, right? You mentioned notes, but also documenting not in a in a frivolous sense, but uh making sure you've got comprehensive photos to refer to so you can can jog your memory, it's gonna be critical. I mean, clearly you've you've done a lot of thinking and and and preparation, uh, or at least um put in the the kind of foundations of how you're going to. Accommodate that. One thing that we're doing on our side is uh thinking about how AI can support us as well. And we've we've got a number of features with the with the core kind of being how do we support a surveyor to do the thing that's really valuable. Well, first of all, it's interesting for you guys, right? Evaluating and assessing the the condition of a property, but second of all maximising the the amount of time you can spend on the important things for the for the buyer or seller in this instance, um to make sure you can provide professional judgment. And I think AI does have a a role to play. I I we haven't actually discussed whether you're an advocate or a uh quest or something on that front. Yeah, huge advocacy, yeah. Yeah. I think the potential to produce more efficient surveys that are uh of a better quality, if anything, um, is is huge on the AI side of things. So that's where we as a as an organization are focusing our attention. I'd be interested to get your your take on that as well and whether that has a has a role to play.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, well we're we we're looking at AI for a couple of things. First of all, in our in our file setup, so it's the desktop research, uh, because I think the the LLMs don't work particularly well. Um I think it's pointless putting into chat GPT telling me the council tax ban for this property because half the time it'll get it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Um get it wrong convincingly, which is the issue.

SPEAKER_00 45:53

Yeah, but if you if you have an an AI bot or an AI agent uh and they you ask that for the for the council tax band, then it can be done in a way that it looks like someone's taking remote control remote access to your PC.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah.

Are video reports the next evolution?

SPEAKER_00 46:08

Uh and you see someone doing exactly the same as a surveyor or a support member of staff would would buy um it's going on the government web, it's going on websites and check the council tax band and it's taking taking a screenshot and it's putting that straight into to Go report, for example. Uh, I think that will help. Uh I think certainly having something that can rephrase things, uh, because we as surveyors we we tend to be very technical people, uh, we're very nerdy people. I'm a geek. Um, lots of other surveyors are as well. Uh but we can we can sometimes drift into writing things for our clients in the way that we would like to read them, but our clients are most likely not surveyors, maybe geeks. So things need to be written in the right way as well. And and I and I know there are some firms who are getting into AI for actually well, take take a picture of a defect and then describe it. Uh and I'm in tune minds on how accurate that's gonna be. I I think time will tell over the next year or so. Uh AI is going on absolutely leaps and bounds. Uh, one one thing I would like to see is reports getting more interactive. Uh so so for for example, um because a lot of reports are provided in PDF format right now, which may well not be the case in in a number of years' time, but even with PDFs, uh you can embed videos within a PDF. So could you perhaps have a video of the surveyor talking about the defects that they've spotted at the individual property? Uh and that might then cut down the time that you need to spend on post-survey calls. Yeah. And what whilst it's whilst it's fresh in your memory. Uh there are technological ways to do that.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

Yeah, and that that splits splits opinions in terms of liability and in terms of um uh how comfortable I suppose people are on camera. I mean, you I know you you feel comfortable and and you're very articulate. There are some that I've spoken to because we've looked at video side things that they would say, oh you know, I I'd be worried about what I was saying and it would take more time and all that side of things. But there is a natural evolution if you look at the broader world, right? There was um YouTube's birthday. 21st birthday yesterday, I think, on the day of recording this, um, to to reference it. And you know, the world is moving towards videos, the world is moving towards more information being projected to you rather than you having to absorb it from text. So I I think it's very prudent to be considering that side of things, certainly.

SPEAKER_00 48:48

If I buy a flat pack, uh I never look at the instruction manual. First thing I do is I look on YouTube for a guide. Well, how do I build this? I think that's the way a lot of people think now. We've we have we have visual people, I think attention spans are far shorter than they used to be, and I think that's getting worse and worse and worse and worse. The average reading age in the UK is what about eight, eight, nine, ten years old, something like that. Um, I I've got I've got two kids, and my my my kids are nine and six. Uh so the way I uh way I look at things is if my nine-year-old could have the basic understanding of a survey, then it works for the client.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Yeah, yeah. I mean that that that is I suppose it really challenges you at that point to think about the way that you communicate. And in incidentally, that's exactly what we've developed and is is with some customers in early release now is one, the ability to rephrase and simplify, and and you know, the classic is you mentioned surveyors being geeks. When people get carried away, they'll write, you know, four paragraphs on something, and then they'll go, actually, hang on, I could have said this in in one paragraph, and being able to compress that and challenge your your one use of technical language and two that the length of the text is is really important.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Yeah, the the the the end user, the client, they they don't want they don't want to know this section and that section of the building regulations and exactly why it complies or why it doesn't. They want to know what's wrong, how do I fix it? What are the implications? And uh yeah, that's what we need to get across.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

I have there's another podcast there as well, so we'll have to get you on two two separate other podcasts. But um I all that's left for me to say, I think, is is is thank you. I appreciate you know it we're in early days uh of this being proposed, and uh, and there's a lot of uncertainty and unknowns. Um but I think there's some useful nuggets in terms of making sure you're strengthening your relationships with solicitors and uh agents as much as possible, irrespective of your size, because they're going to be an important player uh going forward, as well as thinking about what should be included in that that kind of seller survey if it is to come about. So thank you for for the conversation. It was really interesting that I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah, pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Fantastic. Thank you. If you enjoyed today's episode and/or it gave you some food for thought, be sure to follow our show on your preferred podcast platform. To learn more about what we do at GoReports, visit goreport.com. The links are also in the bio. Until next time.