Rich, White Guys Make Crappy Financial Advisors with Katy Chen Mazzara

Dave Ramsey has built an empire on “tough love” money advice. But what happens when that advice is rigid, shame-based, and completely ignores things like privilege, trauma, or the actual cost of living in 2025?

In this episode of Disrupt Your Money, Meg sits down with financial wellness coach Katy Chen Mazzara, creator of Financial Freedom for Creatives, to unpack the impact of Dave Ramsey–style personal finance on real humans—especially creatives and marginalized folks.

You’ll hear how to keep the useful parts of popular money advice while ditching the shame, rigidity, and “if you just tried harder” nonsense. By the end, you’ll have permission to build a money plan that fits your nervous system, your values, and your actual life—not some entitled white guy’s bootstraps fantasy.

⏱️ In This Episode:

00:00 Why We’re Talking About Dave Ramsey

00:34 Meet Money Mentor Katy Chen Mazzara

01:42 Privileged White-Guy Money Platforms

02:51 Bankruptcy, Shame & Double Standards

06:00 One-Size-Fits-All Rules vs Real Humans

07:09 Credit Card Debt vs Investing “On Paper”

11:16 “Baby Steps” & Treating Adults Like Toddlers

12:08 Debt “Addiction,” Nuance & Knowing Yourself

31:42 When Debt Payoff Becomes Your Whole Life

32:53 Why Paying Off Your Mortgage Early Isn’t Always Wise

43:21 Final Thoughts: Rules, Values & Your Money Choices

🔗 Mentioned in This Episode:

👉 Katy Chen Mazzara – Money Mentor & Financial Freedom for Creatives → https://www.katychenmazzara.com (Katy Chen Mazzara | Money Mentor)
👉 Financial Freedom for Creatives Club (Katy’s membership for creatives) → https://www.financialfreedomforcreatives.com (Katy Chen Mazzara, Money Mentor)

👉 Disrupt Your Money – submit your questions or money story → https://disruptyourmoney.com

💬 Connect with Us:

🌐 Website → https://equitablemoneyproject.com
📸 Instagram → https://instagram.com/equitablemoneyproject
🎧 Podcast → https://equitablemoneyproject.com/podcast

🚀 Your Next Step:
Ready to make your money match your values (without the shame spiral)? Download our free Wealth is Resistance Action Kit → https://equitablemoneyproject.com/kit

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Well, hey there, and welcome back to another episode of Disruptor Money. And I am really excited for today's episode. I know I say that every week, but this is an episode that has been many, many months in the making because I knew the minute I started this podcast that I wanted to talk about this topic. And then I had the pleasure of meeting in real life for the first time a good friend and mentor and peer in the business who also loves to talk about this topic. And we connected over our mutual concern and frustration over this topic. So that is why we're here today. And it's why I am so delighted to introduce Katie to Disrupt Your Money to our podcast. Katie, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Yeah, hi everyone. I'm Katie Chenmazara. I'm a financial wellness coach, and I help creative freelancers and entrepreneurs to release generational wealth or release generational traumas to actually create some generational wealth and then also to not worry about money so much and act and create true financial freedom for themselves.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I love that. You do all of the important work that needs to happen so that when people get to people like me, we can actually dive into the the the nitty-gritty of how we run our businesses every day. So I am so grateful, you know, to you and for you for being in this space and doing the work that you do.

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Oh, I I appreciate you too. Like I have so many clients and members of my Financial Freedom for Creatives Club who have joined your program or are working with you one-on-one and they just love it. And you know, you just make their lives so much easier as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

We try. It's hard to make this stuff that much easier, but we definitely try. And I'm also grateful to you and for you for being willing to talk about this topic today, which is Dave Ramsey. And not just I mean, we're gonna mostly brag on Dave Ramsey, but I really think this topic even goes beyond him, which is more about this proliferate proliferation. That was that was too big of a word for Wednesday. Proliferation of entitled, privileged white guys using their platforms, their incredibly immense platforms, to uh persuade is maybe the kindest way of putting it, us to do do certain things that might not actually be in our best interest. So if it's not putting you too much on the spot, I'd love to start off by just asking, what do you think about Dave?

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Well, once you once you first started with that whole privilege thing, um, the thing that I what bothers me the most is actually the fact that he had bankruptcies in his past, right? And not that there's anything to be ashamed of if you have a bankruptcy. Um however, if you're working with people with their money, like CFPs can't have bankruptcies. I don't know about CPAs, but CFPs cannot have bankruptcies, yeah. Um, unless it's for a very like a major situation, like let's say you had cancer and you had a lot of medical bills, you know, then there were those extenuating circumstances that you know they will excuse. But if you become a certified financial planner, one of the things they look at is the the background, right, of where you come from. And if you've had one, two, you know, obviously more bankruptcies, um, it's gonna really be a major barrier to you actually getting the certification. And so for him to be out there talking, you know, giving people financial advice when he's had this in his past, that's the sort of the beginning for me of like, uh, you know, be careful, right? Be careful of what you're actually listening to and watching with him. Because, you know, um, yeah, it's like, yes, he may understand that situation and gotten himself out of it. However, um, he is not, he should not be the end all and be all of all of your financial advice for right.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

I don't, I mean, I will admit I listened to him sparingly because I solely for business research you know purposes, so I can slam him on my podcast. But did he talk about the bankruptcies? I don't think I've I didn't I didn't know that about him.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yes, he actually does talk about the bankruptcy. Yeah, he has talked about it. Um he couches it as like, you know, it was the reason he got into this work, and it was the reason that he um was so passionate about like making himself like a millionaire or billionaire or whatever he is at this point.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Yeah. Well, and it's it's funny you say that. I mean, I I remember reading that financial troubles are what got him to this. I I didn't realize it had had gone as far as bankruptcy. But um I often find and I I love when people figure out solutions to their problems and then take it a step further to figure out how to help impact other people and help other people to wear that situation. So I actually I have a lot of respect for that. What I notice sometimes though is when people do that, they adopt a very one size fits all mentality about this is the way I did it, and therefore this is the only way you can do it. And one of the big things we focus on in my business is that there is no one size fits all for everybody. We don't require you to use one accounting system. We don't like, we don't have all these rules because we recognize that each person is different, and to the extent possible within the confines of the tax laws, we really try to work with you to create a system that works for you. Um, and for me, that's actually why a lot of what Dave Ramsey talks about really rubs me the wrong way because like there, you know, he always talks about um uh like one of his oh gosh, there's so many. I'm gonna drop open so many cans of worms here, and I'm sorry, because I know we're gonna want to talk about all of them. Yes. But you know, his attitudes about not using debt, his attitudes about paying debt off before you start investing.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

Like I get the debt, the debt piece is what also gets me going. I think that rail really worked up about it.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

All right, we're gonna get there. Let me finish right here and then we're gonna get there because I agree that's a huge one. But for me, it's like, yes, I get that like intellectually on paper, maybe these things make sense. But the reality is they are not factoring in people's attitudes and and personalities and struggles and privileges and lack of privilege and and situations. And I just, you know, like I actually saw something, this wasn't Dave Ramsey, but I saw something today about how um it was actually from I I'm not trying to slam them because I actually like their stuff. It was Dow Dow Jones or not Dow Jones, what is it, Dow Jane or whatever? Dow Jane's, yeah. Yeah. Um and they said, no, we don't think you should be investing in the market until you've paid off all your credit card debt. No, they're not wrong on paper. On paper, yes, it costs you, you know, if you're a 20% interest rate, of course, that makes that's the right answer. But the reality is I work with so many people who get so, and you may as well, who get so discouraged by feeling like they're not making any forward progress in something that gives them something, that telling someone to put$50 into an investment account every month and so they can see that grow brings them back so much, so many benefits that give them the motivation and the the hope that they need to then tackle that credit card debt even harder. And and so it's to me like that you know, sort of one size fits all answer just doesn't really address the fact, and I mean I you deal with generational trauma. So you probably could take this so much deeper than I could, but it just doesn't deal with the fact that we are people who have our own attitudes and and habits and challenges, and and you know, like I know what every time I open up my investment account, there's not a lot in it, and I have some debt I have to pay off, but being able to look at that investment account gives me hope. It makes me feel like I am building something. And it it it you know, I think that that is so important and it gets overlooked in a lot of this financial knowledge.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of what Dave Ramsey talks about, including the debt piece, is that there's a lot rooted in scarcity. It's a lot, a lot of it is rooted in um that there isn't there really isn't enough or there's not enough room to do both, right? And that that's the reason why it's important that you're paying down your debts. And of course, yeah, I I actually advocate, of course, you know, to try and pay down your debts. However, I also understand that there are different circumstances for different people, like you're saying. And for me, it's like if let's say you you do work a nine to five type of job and the company gives you a 401k, do you know, or match your 401k, and do you turn down that free money just to keep paying down your debt? No, of course not. That makes no sense whatsoever, right? And that's one of the things that, you know, he yeah, he doesn't advocate for you to actually put money into your 401k, even if there is a match, right? Yeah, so there's a lot of that, you know, and then when it comes to debt, it's like his idea of like basically, I mean, he's never said this exact word, but he basically says, like, you know, do whatever you can to pay down your debts. Move home, live in your parents' basement, live off of like stereo, in order to actually pay down your debts, because the debts are the thing that for him is is the evil thing, right? And sometimes it's not. Sometimes, you know, in terms of debt, sometimes debt can be a great way to leverage you into different things, right? Like during the pandemic, when the government was giving out those PPP loans that were at 1% interest, and some of them didn't even have payments like for a whole year, right? Like, why wouldn't you take advantage of something like that when um you know savings rates are at that time were even lower than the 1%, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:07

So yeah, I I I completely agree. And I think what really rubs me about him and about other folks who kind of have a similar style, and again, it does go back to that one size fits all. It's I feel like he's treating people like they're toddlers. He's basically saying you're not smart enough or capable enough to figure this, you know, to kind of craft a plan that works for you and to be trusted with this stuff. Right. Oh, yeah. Cool, you're gonna I mean, it sounds like I mean his method is called baby steps, right? That's a that's a great point. I know. I figure I was like, one of us has to say it. Um you know, it but it which don't get me wrong, I get that you could look at the way Americans especially treat money and say that we're crap at it and you know we shouldn't be trusted. Maybe I'm a hopeful optimist, I don't know, but I just think that we're better off if we empower people and give them the tools to learn how to manage this stuff. And look, some people might say, you know what? I'm an addict when it comes to debt. I shouldn't have debt because it's not healthy for me, much like you know, alcohol or drugs or whatever. And fine, if that's you, then much like an alcoholic would say, I'm not going to drink, these are the steps I'm gonna take. Great, and I support that a hundred percent. But he's acting like everybody's an alcoholic. And it just to your point about leverage, leverage is such a critical component. When we look at big businesses, why are they successful? A huge part of it is because they have learned how to leverage what they have. They're not going out and paying cash for everything, they would never be at the point they're at if they had to. That doesn't mean they can't afford their debt, it means that they understand how this economy works and they are using it to their advantage in a way that enables them to grow. And frankly, I think that when we're talking about building generational wealth, if we are not thinking outside of this perfect little nine to five no debt box, then we are actually never going to achieve the wealth that we need to have the power in the society.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, leveraging is how most wealthy people become wealthy. You know, most people most wealthy people don't actually use their own money to finance a lot of their projects. Yeah. You know, and and then why, like when we were talking about kind of privilege, you know, 99% of venture capital money goes to white male founders. Yeah. So, you know, when we're talking about that, it's like they're leveraging money. They're leveraging someone someone else's money. And do they owe that you know, venture capital a debt? Absolutely, that is a debt, right? It's not the same as like a credit card debt. However, it is a debt. And so for us to sit here and go, all debt is terrible, it's all evil, it's the thing that we we've got to do to kind of pay down the debts. And you know, and he said things, and this is this is the part that bothers me too, is that he kind of goes on his like high horse a little bit, right? And says things like, oh, if you have any debt whatsoever, you should not even step inside a restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Don't even get me started.

SPEAKER_04 14:25

It's like, okay, so people should not eat, people shouldn't, you know, um take care of themselves, right? Like this is this is not the way to live. First of all, like money should not be such a binding, important like thing that we're we're like, okay, now we can't do anything until we've got this debt paid off, right? Instead, it's like the way we should treat money is that it can enhance our life and it takes care of the the necessities, right? Yeah. And so how can you do that in a way that feels more expansive, more free, all of those things, you know, rather than constrict yourself to the point, because I've actually had a couple of clients who first came to me and said they did the Dave Ramsey method. Okay, they went through the program, did the Dave Ramsey method, and paid down a lot of debt. But now, when they first came to me, they actually were in more debt than they were the first time around. And to me, this is that part of the problem, right? Because sometimes when you're restricting yourself so much, you can do it, right? It's like a diet. You can totally go on a diet and lose a lot of weight, but it's not a sustainable way of being in the world, right? And so it's not a sustainable thing for the rest of your life. So then it becomes, yeah, you you get back into it. And then what do you do? You know, do you go back to the Dave Ramsey method when it didn't work this time?

SPEAKER_02 16:04

You know, so are you suggesting that perhaps this might all be part of their plan to keep people apart?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

Maybe. Well, it's an addictive method too, right? Because for them, they're all about like celebrating all of the wins of people, you know, paying off$10,000 of debt. You paid off$100,000, you paid off$40,000, you know, and it and it becomes like this exciting, you know, almost like auction-like environment when you're part of his thing as well.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

I mean, I think addictive is the best way to put it because it really does create that, and that's what I've seen from the people I've worked with who have done the program or similar programs, you know, they're he's not the only one out there, um, is that it is very addictive and it's very restrictive, and it's very hard to operate on that type of program outside of that type of program. I don't think he's doing a good job at all of setting people up for success long term outside of his world. And that's to me the at best irresponsible, at worst, manipulative um aspect of this. You know, when people come and work with us, in fact, we even have like book, let's take bookkeeping. This is a great example of we can do your monthly bookkeeping for you. We absolutely have you know that service you can pay us. We have programs to help you figure out your bookkeeping so that you can go do it on your own. Does that in theory cost me sales? Sure. But I don't want you to ever feel like you have to do it my way with me, paying me forever and ever and ever. I want you to have the tools and resources to do what works best for you. Yes. And that's how I feel empowerment piece, right? That's missing. And again, like whether it's debt or or anything else, it he's not actually teaching you anything. He's giving you a little bit of a drug so that you keep saying, I want more, I want more, I want more. And then if you're released from that, now you're addicted.

SPEAKER_04 18:15

Right, absolutely. Yeah. And I and I think that, you know, for me, I I always think I'm the most successful when I actually help my clients and members graduate from me and no no longer need my services. You know, that's that's the success measure for me, you know, and and I've heard from so many clients who years later they're like, yeah, I'm still out of debt, right? And so that to me is the successful model, is that okay, they pay down the their debts and they keep it off, right? Yeah. And not go back into it, not go back into the cycle where they have to go on that diet again. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah. Well, it's that it's that restrictive mindset. If you if you go the you know, time that you're working in this program, not allowing yourself to have any of these things, and then all of a sudden, you know, you you you're not within the confines of that anymore, and in theory, you can have whatever you want. You don't know how to manage it. You don't know how to to be responsible. And again, it's the same thing with debt, it's the same thing with anything. And and you're just sort of it's like dropping the person off on the side of the road, you know, when they, I don't know, when they get out of prison with like a dollar. Like what are we supposed to do? You know, you're you're you're setting them up for failure, and and that just feels scary to me. Yeah that there are so many people out there who are being led to believe that this is the answer and then really are left no better off. Or sometimes even worse.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Right. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Yeah. I was looking I'm looking over at my notes because I was like, I know there are other things I wanted to complain about him about. Um I you know, I actually one thing we haven't touched on at all, which I'm surprised because I thought it would be the first thing we we really like went to town on is um is the privilege aspect. And the fact that he I feel like he ignores the realities of the inequitable society that we operate in. And this idea, like you even mentioned, like, oh, go live in your parents' basement. What if your parents don't have a home that can support you? What if you don't have parents?

SPEAKER_04 20:38

Like, what if completely what if you have a really terrible relationship with your parents, you know?

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Um yeah, like ignoring the realities that most many people do not have safety nets, do not come from families with wealth that can catch you when you fall, that many people are entering adulthood with massive student loan debt that's crushing them. And I think Dave would act like those people are irresponsible, but are they? I mean, they have uh they have done what they were told they were supposed to do and are now in this really um challenging position. And so I just you know, I feel like uh he just completely ignores the fact that most people do not have what he has or had, do not start off the way that he seems to think people do, and you know, are already living extremely restricted lives in many cases because they can't afford the things they need. Debt is a way that they can get child care or health, you know, health care or food. And and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Yeah. I mean, one one of the things that he talks about or he did talk about, and I think he got a lot of flack for during the pandemic, was when Biden gave the what$1,300 or something like that for um each person who made under a certain amount of money, right? And he went out there and said, like, you know, you don't have a life if you, you know, or get a life or something like that around the those terms, right? Um and and he got a lot of fleck, kind of very, very much like deservedly so, because that was sort of out of touch, right? Like his methods isn't like a lot of his methods are not inherently terrible, right? But it in some ways it's yeah, it's not taking into account um people who just don't have anything, and then it's also not taking into account kind of our our modern day situation, which is very, very different than most likely how he grew up and how you know, and even when he was in his 20s or 30s, right? Um it's just a different world that we're living in these days. And, you know, I mean, student student loans, for example, I mean, when I went to school, uh, I went to NYU, which is notoriously a very expensive school. And when I went there, tuition was around$30,000 a year. I had an intern that I mentored, and you know, he asked me to write him a letter of recommendation, and then he got in to NYU, um, but then he couldn't afford it because I think now tuition is around$65,000,$70,000,$75,000 a year. Yeah. It's like doubled the amount of money that when I went to school, right? So so for us to sit here and judge somebody who's coming out of college or you know, any kind of university program with like$100,000 in debt,$200,000 debt, like that wasn't something that we probably experienced, right? Like I had scholarships and grants, I probably came out of school with around$33,000 of student loan debt, which I was able to pay off in the 10 years, right? Yeah. But that's$33,000 of debt, right? Like if somebody's coming out of school with$100,000 of debt,$200,000 of debt, right, that is a amount, you know, a huge mountain to actually climb to that situation. And so for us to sit here and judge that, right, rather than have compassion and say, yes, I've paid off my debt. However, I'm all for the government giving forgiveness, right? Yeah. And I I actually don't think the government's even doing enough to give forgiveness, right? 10,000 or 20,000 is not enough, right? Instead, I actually think that they should base it off of an income thing, right? Like, okay, if your your if your debt, your student loan debt is more than 10% of your overall income, that should be the the forgiveness point, right? And then there's that's more of an equitable um playing field, too, you know, versus somebody who is making, you know, maybe making$200,000 or$500,000 and then they're getting$10,000 off their student loan, right? Like that to me doesn't seem to make as much sense, you know. So yeah. And for him, it's you know, for he keeps calling it socialism, right? Like he goes on and on sometimes on his on his podcasts and and shows, you know, anything, anything to help other people is really socialism in his book.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

I I I I was I before we came into this episode, I was like, you're not gonna let this episode get political. You're not gonna make it political. Don't because you know me, I will always talk politics. But you said the S words.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Well, when we talk about Dave Ramsey, you almost can't not talk about politics, right? Because he he goes there, right? And he doesn't, I mean, he he does go both sides. I mean, he is definitely a lot more right-leaning than left-leaning. However, he does call out both sides, you know. Um, but he definitely gets political. He definitely talks about, you know, the politicians and he talks about student loan forgiveness, and he's not for it. He was not for the you know Biden administration giving out those$1,300 checks, you know, any of anything like that to him is socialism.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

So I love that you said all that. And uh two things to say. First of all, all of this is political, and that's why we end up here, because your money is political. We talk about that a lot on this show. So to act like or to think that they can be separate is is ridiculous because our uh what what we do with our money, how our money comes to us, it is all political. But the other thing, just as a fun fact for folks listening, we already live in a socialist country. We benefit from roads and schools and hospitals, all of those things are socialism. So adding on more health care, student loan support, things like that, that's not oh, we're becoming socialists. We are socialists. It's just that now we're talking about wanting to give socialism benefits to people who maybe don't look like you or don't have your socioeconomic status, um, or don't live in your area. And so this idea that politically, you know, we're gonna get sucked into this thing. People talk about socialism like it's a bad thing. Yeah, not to get on my soapbox, but I don't know what is so bad about a society in which everyone has access to affordable health care, in which everyone has access to quality education, in which no one cannot pay their bills because they decided to pursue education, or they have to put their can in child care, or they had a medical, you know, you talked about cancer earlier. It is absolutely out of this world to me, but sadly, so much of this world that that is the environment we live in.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

So I work with people all over the world um as a financial coach, and what I see over and over again is you know, people in Canada feel sorry for us because they get free healthcare, right? People in Europe, like they're like surprised, you know, because their undergraduate degree was already is paid for by the governments, right? Like all of these things, you know, when you look at the rest of the world and how it sets you up for an even playing field, right? Like let's say you, you know, if everyone has the privilege of going and getting their undergraduate degree and you're all starting off with an undergraduate degree, how much more equitable can you know can it be? Right, that's actually more equitable than in this country where it's like, well, you have to have some money to actually go to uh a university for four years, right? Yeah, and and the people who don't have the money, they go to a community college, they go to a trade school, they may not even go to school, right? And then they have those high school degrees, and then we've seen study after study showing that you know people with uh higher degrees actually make more money. Big surprise. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

So we could probably complain about Dave Ramsay for hours. Love it. But I do want to wrap us up here because I also want to pivot us to another really important topic. But before I do that, let's end. If you had to just pick one thing, what is the worst piece of advice that you think Dave Ramsey gives? You have to just pick one. I know it's hard.

SPEAKER_04 30:11

Um well, yeah, there's so many. I mean, I think like we didn't even go get into kind of the investment advice that he talks about, right? Because he talks to me started. Yeah, he advocates for mutual funds over ETFs, which of course we all know mutual funds have much more fees than ETFs do. Um, he talks about S P 500 being um a return of 12% over the last 10 years, when it when in fact, if you actually average it out, it's more like 10%, you know, and and that may seem like, okay, he's being an optimist, but it's not really because you do want to be a little bit more on the conservative side when you're trying to save up for your retirement, right? So those kinds of things. But I think like the number one thing to me is the fact that you know, advocating for people to pay down their debts, all of their debts, in spite of everything, right? In spite of like where you are, uh, what you're doing, how much you're bringing in, all of these things. Um, I think that is that's coming from a place of privilege, really, because you know, and again, like I want I want people to be able to use their money to expand their lives, right? To be able to do something that feels like freedom for them, to be able to pursue the things that they love and to have a more expansive life rather than spending all your time doing nothing but paying down your debts.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:46

Because that that means that that is the priority in your life, right? Like when we're talking about, you know, people always talk about, okay, what are your priorities? And most of the time people will say something like, you know, God, family, friends, or something like that, or family friends, and you know, all of that. But when you actually look at what you're focusing your life on, right, what you end up focusing your life on is like work, you know, paying down your debts and that kind of stuff. And so those things are become like the number one priority in your life life. And when it becomes that, it actually creates more contraction. It it doesn't make your life richer in any way, you know, and you know, true wealth and true financial uh freedom is actually being able to live the life that you want to live.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

I feel like we need a mic drop moment right there. That was beautiful. That was perfect. I don't even want to follow that up. That was so good. I'm I will follow it up with one really quick piece of advice that I hate that he gives, which is actually to do with mortgages. So he is you know he's very big on pay off your mortgage because when you talk about pay down debt, he talks about every kind of debt, not just credit card debt. And as a tax professional and a financey type person, I think this is just so, so, so, so bad. It just was one of those things that really just pisses me off that he says it. Because for most people, the interest rate on your mortgage is pretty low. Yeah. If you put your cash to paying that down, not only are you giving up the tax deduction, but you're paying down low interest debt that you could instead be putting that money into investments, making a whole lot more than three, four, five percent. Uh and so that just that one really rubs me the wrong way. But he also says, and this is a privileged one, absolutely, that if you cannot afford a 15-year mortgage, you should not be buying a house.

SPEAKER_04 33:45

Right. I mean that's crazy, ludicrous.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

That's that's privileged right there. When I like every time I see a reference to that, because I'm just like it is completely asinine to say that given the state of the housing market today, but also just the fact that people are the cost of housing compared to income is so drastically different than it was in our parents' generation or you know, prior. And so this this I I mean housing is so unaffordable and unattainable for so many people today, anyway. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 34:20

We're not living in the 40s anymore or 50s, right? Where houses are like$40,000, you know, total.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

Not even. I think I think like my grandparents' first house was like a thousand dollars. No, but still, you know, it's where you could afford a house on one person's income that was doable, it that is no longer a reality for most people these days. So okay, so again, we could go on at this forever, but I want to get to an equally important topic, and this is something that you know, for all of the folks that we're talking about who are being left out of this conversation that you know that Dave Ramsey's having, and and and that this advice is not good for. We know that job loss is just compounds all of these issues tenfold. And most people in this country, and I'm of course I'm speaking specifically in the US, but probably probably around the world as well, are living paycheck to paycheck, are in a situation where losing your job is you know has a profound effect. And even if that's not you, even if you have savings, even if you you you are okay to manage for a bit, as you pointed out, for so many of us work is that number one priority right now, and so much of our identity is wrapped up in work. So I know you've been doing a lot recently around job loss, and I think the timing is particularly wise because we are seeing so many people, especially in the tech world, but but all over being laid off. I'd love to have you just touch a little bit on the work you're doing around job loss, you know, any sort of things that people can be thinking about if they find themselves in this position.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

Yeah, so yeah, recently with the tech world, also the entertainment industry, I mean the writers guild just uh decided to go on strike. Um, well, they didn't decide, they actually kind of got forced into going on strike. Um and you know, a lot of people are out of a job right now, right? And even last month, um, I think they uh the unemployment numbers went up, you know, um slightly, but I think that this month it's gonna go up by a lot, right? And um and so I really want to be able to support and help the people who are now facing job loss, right? Either for the first time or for the you know 15th time, right? Because there is there is some kind of not just financial toll when you have a job loss, but it's also an emotional toll. You know, and what I've seen over and over again, and I've experienced it myself too, whenever I've had a job loss, it's that you know, you start to go into a grief cycle, right? It's the same exact feelings when you actually are in grief over loss of a loved one. You go into denial, you go into anger, you know, you go into all of these different feelings. And sometimes people don't really see that or people don't really acknowledge it. And and society almost wants you to kind of just like pick it up, get going, move on, you know, why are you so upset about it? It's fine, or or yes, it's upsetting, but you know, you should just go and find the next job and you should be fine after that. But it's not that easy, really. And to be honest, like if you're still in those grief cycles, trying to find another job is actually more challenging because you the energy that you're bringing into those interviews is one of like, I don't have closure yet, right? It's the same thing as dating, for example, right? If you start to date somebody too soon after a breakup, right, that person either ends up being the um rebound person, or they end up, you know, you just can't handle that relationship yet, right? There's nothing that you can do, and and it ends pretty quickly. So it's the same thing with you know jobs. You know, you've got to go through these grief cycles, be able to release those emotions, and then start to understand what it is that you really, really want to do, whether it's going back into the same industry and going to find that next job, or perhaps it's even a pivot, right? Like um, sometimes out of that kind of loss, you actually find the thing that you really want to do, which is what really happened with me, you know, after one of my job losses. Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02 38:56

So and yes, people were being laid off around me. So yeah, it was right.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

And that's that's also the same thing, right? To me, this is what I tell people too, is that it can also be around you quitting a job that just wasn't right for you, right? Like I had to quit a job that was, yeah, like I felt like every day it it wasn't, you know, if I was doing something that was in my values, they didn't think I was doing a good job. And then when I was doing stuff that they thought I was doing a good job on, I was like, I was feeling like I wasn't in my own value. You know, so and and that was a job that I was like, I gotta get out of here. And there were lingering effects afterwards, because afterwards you still start to feel like, oh, I failed, right? Like I couldn't, you know, sometimes quitting actually feels even worse because it really feels like you didn't you couldn't hack it or you couldn't make it, right? And that's why you quit, you know. So because society has also these ideas about what quitting means. Too right. It's it's not an empowering thing sometimes. And so these are all of the things that I want to help people and support people to go through, right? And so I'm actually doing a retreat with um a fellow coach who's a grief recovery specialist. And the two of us are doing an in-person retreat in Los Angeles at the end of this month, um, uh Memorial Day weekend, and where we're gonna, you know, talk through and work through the grief cycles. We're gonna do some somatic release work, which is you know, getting into your body. You know, there's also moments of reflection, and then we're gonna come out of it to help you to feel more expansive both emotionally, uh both in your also in your career and then also in your finances, right? Because when you lose a job, it's also important that again, unlike Dave Ramsey, I want you to feel more expansive, right? Because when you start to contract, because the natural inclination after a job loss is to contract and say, let me get rid of every single expense I possibly can, live really leanly, let me just live off of ramen noodles for the next however long before I find my next job. However, when you're in that same survival mode, it's really hard to create and then be able to build upon that, right? It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like you've got to take care of your basic needs and feel that sense of safety and security before you can actually find the next job or get to the next career move and and or be just be creative in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

I love that. And I'm so excited you're doing the retreat. Uh, I think really it's it's something that is needed because there really aren't a lot of support systems set up for people when this happens. There's certainly, you know, companies might offer you know job assistance and placement and things like that, but there's nothing to deal with the emotional side of this. Yes. Uh, and that is is really the biggest piece. So for anyone who is going through this, where can they find details about this retreat? How can they sign up? Where can they get this goodness?

SPEAKER_04 42:17

So we're um I'll I'll give you the link. It's subscribepage.com slash thriving after job loss. Um, but I'll give you the link where you can put it into the show notes. And um, yeah, and and also you can find me on Instagram at Katie Chen Mazzara, and I have links to it on my page there as well.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Perfect. And yeah, we'll put all of that in the show notes. But Katie, thank you so much for being here. I have loved this conversation. I kind of want to have a part two because I feel like we can smart. I know we still have so much more to talk about. Didn't want to go you know too into the um super technical stuff, but yes, I could absolutely uh go into that because his investing advice really ticks me off too. Um but any final thoughts to to leave our listeners with before we we wrap this up?

SPEAKER_04 43:12

Yeah, I just want everyone to understand that money really is a tool that you can have, you know, in your tool belt, right? And understanding also um the rules, you know, the tax laws, those kinds of things, um, helps kind of to helps you to put a parameter and and helps you to understand how you want to deal with money. However, it's still up to you, right? You have this life to live, and you know, money is of this earth. We can't take it with us when we pass. And so you get to decide what value you want to put onto money, you get to decide what you want to do with your money, and you also get to um make as much money as you want to make and do all of the things because this is your life, really.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Yeah, I I absolutely love that and I second all of that. And I again I'm just so grateful for you being here, for you being willing to have this conversation and to share all of your incredible thoughts around this because it is important that we talk about all of this stuff and and uh we need to be calling out things when they feel problematic, and that's exactly what we try to do here on Disrupt Your Money. So thank you again for being here. And for all of our listeners, thank you so much for listening to another episode of Disrupt Your Money. As always, you can find us by going to disrupt your money.com. Send us your questions. We'd love to answer them on air. And please remember to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcast player, as well as leave us a review. And until next time, please make sure you are finding all the ways that you can to disrupt your own money. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Thanks for listening to Disrupt Your Money. If you have a money question you'd like answered in a future episode, go to disruptyourmoney.com. To support the podcast, please rate and review it wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want access to all of my free templates, checklists, resources, and guides, click the link for the Biz Money Library in the show notes.