Avoid Burnout by Making Bank: A Conversation with Tiffany McLain, LMFT

If you’ve ever felt guilty for wanting to make good money doing healing work, this conversation is for you.

Meg sits down with licensed marriage and family therapist Tiffany McLain, LMFT to talk about raising fees in a way that’s ethical, boundaried, and actually includes the therapist in the definition of “care.” They unpack the tension between “I want to help people” and “I also need to pay my bills, rest, and not resent my work.”

This is a love note to therapists, social workers, and helpers of all kinds who are ready to stop sacrificing themselves for a system that was never designed for their well-being.

⏱️ In This Episode:

00:00 Meet Tiffany & her work with therapists

02:52 Money and helping professions can coexist

04:21 The martyr myth in mental health

06:19 Raising your fees with integrity

08:22 Tiffany’s family, boundaries & money story

11:07 Wealthy therapists aren’t the villains

16:21 Queer wealth, Pride & joyful representation

18:12 Sliding scales, scholarships & access

24:28 Better-paid therapists and systemic change

33:25 A love note to therapists & social workers

🔗 Mentioned in This Episode:

👉 Biz Money Library – Meg’s free hub of templates, checklists, resources & guides
 → https://equitablemoneyproject.com/biz-money-library-landing

💬 Connect with Us:

 🌐 Website → https://equitablemoneyproject.com
📸 Instagram → https://instagram.com/equitablemoneyproject
🎧 Podcast → https://equitablemoneyproject.com/podcast

🚀 Your Next Step:

 Ready to make your money match your values—and stop martyring yourself for a broken system? Download our free Wealth is Resistance Action Kit → https://equitablemoneyproject.com/kit

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Well, hey there, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Disrupt Your Money Podcast. And I am really excited to be here today with one of our fabulous community members, clients, guests, mentors in our space. Tiffany, thank you so much for being here. And while I certainly have your bio and could say lots of amazing things about you, I'd love to kick it off with you just telling the community a little bit about who you are, what you do, and how you got to us.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Sure. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist. I have a program one signature program where we help therapists and private practice, therapists and social workers, particularly people who come from working class backgrounds. So maybe they're the first in their family to go to college, probably definitely to go to second master's or PhD, people of color, marginalized groups. We work to help them raise their fees in private practice in an ethical way, but that also is actually prioritizing their own needs, privileging their needs, probably for the first time in their entire lives. So that's what we teach in our program, the Lean In Bake Bake Academy.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

And that well, thank you so much for sharing that. And I definitely want to dive into your own journey because I know that's such a big part of the work you do. But I also want to touch on something you just said, which I absolutely loved when I first saw your thoughts on our interview here today, which is the ethical piece of this. Because I think that mental health is one of the most critical resources. In fact, ironically, I just had a conversation with my therapist yesterday. We often talk politics. We often talk politics, which is why I love her. And of course, we were talking about the 2024 election and all that. But we were talking about, she said that she thinks that if we actually can get health care and mental health care kind of fixed as a system in this country, that that is like the number one thing, and everything else kind of falls from that. And it's funny because when I ran for state senate years ago, I used to say that if we could fix economic equity or inequity, that that would everything would fall from that. And we had a great conversation about that. But I loved her point about how the lack of access to quality and affordable health care is so critical. And especially now coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic, and there there is such a challenge around it, right? Because it is a human right, a human need. But we also have, I mean, the work therapists do is so hard. And I put them in the bucket with teachers and you know, firefighters and nurses and doctors and medical professionals and other medical professionals. Um, so I'd love to hear your thoughts more around that ethical piece of how do you but both how do you do it, but also as a therapist or really anyone in a profession where your your um service is helping other people in such a critical way. How do we reconcile the needing to make money, the wanting to make money with the the critical human need that we provide?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

This is such a complex issue. We're diving right in. So I'm gonna do, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tackle this from a few different angles. Um, I really love the conversation you and your therapist were having around um if more people had money, that would, that would, if if if economics are more equitable, equitable, the society would be doing better. I think that's absolutely true. If more people have access to mental health care, the society would be doing much better. So true. And often those things go hand in hand in the way we have mental health care set up, those who have more money have more access to health care, uh, medical care, all those things as well. So our society is all fucked up, number one. So, given that, one of the struggles that therapists and social workers in private practice have, or even if they're not in private practice, they take the weight of our broken system onto their individual shoulders and they feel it is their ethical duty um to give back through their private practice, if they're in private practice, which is their business, they sacrifice their own financial well-being, which leads to sacrificing their emotional well-being, their family's well-being, their own mental health, because they have um internalized the belief that they are the ones responsible for taking care of everyone else's mental health. Then that leads them to being burnt out, overwhelmed. And interestingly, as the uh profession, the field of psychology has shifted more to women and minorities coming into the field, the income has gone down, down, down. So when it was, you know, white, rich white dudes with PhDs back in the 50s, therapists made fabulous money, psychologists made fabulous money. But as more women and minorities come into the field, um, I talk a lot about the triple-fold um uh difficulty for charging for the work we do as therapists. Most of us have um grown up in our family and been the role of helper. So we're the ones who take care of the family, you know, navigate, negotiate conflicts, take care of other people's emotions, parents, siblings, at the neglect of our own. Then we come into the wider society where we're continued, where we're continuing to be told, sacrifice, it's your job to give back, be a martyr. So we we continue to do it. And then we go into the field of psychology, uh, therapy, and social work where that message is reinforced again. So then we go into our own businesses with the idea of I really want to help people. In truth, if therapists are going into their own business, there is a part of them that also is aware of, like, I also want to do something for myself. But that often is riddled with guilt and anxiety and fear. So then they just end up recreating a system where they're um internalizing the larger narrative, sacrifice yourself, give back terra nails. If you have your own needs or desires, you're um uh bad, wrong, you're the man, you're greedy. Selfish, selfish, yeah. Hurting other people, um you know, taking advantage of the very people you're here to serve. So when it comes to thinking about how do we, how do we um take care of, how do we raise our fees ethically, I actually am an advocate for the therapist. I'm not an advocate in this, in my role here at Lim, Lena McVeigh, I'm not an advocate for everyone in society who needs their mental health taken care of. I'm starting with what does a therapist need to do to actually show up and take care of themselves and also do better clinical work, which you can't do if you're burnt out and broke and overwhelmed and guilty and have no boundaries. So that's where I start is with the therapist, him or herself, themselves.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

I love that because as anyone who is um seeking or has sought mental health probably knows right now, it is really hard to find people with availability. Because, you know, my understanding is people are either not going into the profession or leaving it because they're burnt out, because this work, from what I understand, you know, just in and of itself is exhausting. And then you add on the pressure, the guilt and the stress and the you know, the low fees that you make and it just compounds it. And I mean, yes, absolutely. We know that if we pay the people who support us more, and they can they can then do better work, they can then be healthier people themselves, and that of course is going to trickle down to us. And I I I just I love that you do this work, and I um it it's what I love about it is how niche it is, but how critical it is too. It's it is um so necessary. And so that makes me just really happy that that you're doing this. And I I love that you touched on, you know, kind of guilt and shame and and you know, we talked about feeling selfish. And you've said that one of your challenges is mindset around money. So I'd I'd love for you to share a little bit about your story, if you don't mind, and how that led you to this work. Because I think it's really helpful for people to hear what that journey looks like. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

When I went into, well, first of all, of course I had the role of helper in my family. There's something going on emotionally here, folks. You know, kind of understanding that something wasn't quite adding up in terms of the family system, and and bending myself backwards to try to help make sure everyone else felt seen and heard. So then by the time I go to grad school, um, even on the interview when I was uh interviewing for grad school, I knew I couldn't say, ultimately I want to go into private practice and have my own business. Like even then, I knew like something about that is a bad thing to say in an interview at grad school. So by the time I did all my work, got out, um, decided I wanted to go into private practice, by that point I had had clients who I'd worked with for some years who were paying a very low fee because they'd come with me through various uh life internships, um, grad programs. And so I knew I was at that point where I had a caseload of folks who I loved. The clinical work with rich, I felt very connected to them. Um, I resonated with their stories, and I was not, you know, 22 or needed to just hang out. I was in my 30s, uh, I was living in San Francisco, still am the most expensive city at the time in the world, and is still on the top of one of the most expensive cities. And I had some ideas of maybe I want to have a family, like where might that fit in? And looking at the income I was earning with my private practice and the reality of being an adult with student loans, no retirement, most expensive city in the world, I was like, okay, I have to do something different here. I have to charge more, but I had the same feelings we're talking about. Oh, I feel so bad for my clients, I'm gonna be hurting them. Um, who am I to raise these fees? Like, that does not make me selfish. And when I looked around at my supervisors, seasoned clinicians, people I really respected, all of them were doing the same thing. And I had nowhere to go to get help or thinking about how to do this differently. And so, really, um, I had to figure it out for myself. I tried to have conversations with my own friends, colleagues, and I I just couldn't, we couldn't work, we couldn't do it. So I was like, all right, I gotta do this thing. I gotta do it for me. And one of the best ways I do something for myself is if I do it with impact. Uh start talking to other people about it. How do we solve this? Have conversations. And so before long, that's the way my I had my private practice, but my online business started going in that direction as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah. I I love that idea of do it with impact because I think um so much in business, especially when you you you think about marginalized business owners, I feel like so often we are kind of shrinking in our inside of our businesses. You know, we're afraid to advocate for ourselves, we're afraid to ask for the sale, we're afraid to raise our prices. Um and for many, if many people in our community, we're afraid to look at the numbers, we're afraid to dive into that CEO role uh for a variety of reasons. We all have our own baggage. Um, so I love that idea of not just doing something, but but being loud about it, doing it with impact, really, really focusing on um how you can make a difference through that work. And I think that's um really great. I'm I'm curious what what your kind of thoughts on this is a big question, I think. But you know, when it comes to, because obviously you work with practitioners one-on-one, which I think is great, is where does the big action need to happen? Is it, I mean, on a societal level, and I know you mentioned that now that we're seeing more women and people of color go into this industry, we're seeing rates come down. How much of that is driven by the individuals going into the practice with with our own money baggage? And how much is driven by society and racism and you know, all of this sort of um, I would call them broken, but they're not. They're set up to work the way they were intended to work, you know, this infrastructure that doesn't is not intended to serve um most people. I I mean, uh where is the biggest impact that can be had in fixing this problem?

SPEAKER_00 12:15

Well, first of all, I want to step back and say that you just blew my mind a little bit. I've never heard anyone say it in that way. I've I I hear folks referring to our broken system. I have not heard anyone explicitly articulate, no, they're actually working exactly how they were supposed to work.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

So thank you for that. It's a break it to people, but our system isn't broken. It's working perfectly if you were the original founders who decided to design a system for old white guys.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Wow. Okay, I'm gonna have to marinate on that for a little while. That's exactly right. Okay, so our very well-working system, uh, exactly how how it intended. Um, that's a really good question about how to, how would we address this? Um, one of, I'm sure you've heard this stat. I don't know where it comes from. You probably do. Uh, the statistics that said when women have more money, they actually give more, uh make more social impact, contribute more. Do you know where that comes from?

SPEAKER_01 13:12

I don't, but I have heard that. Yeah, yes, 100%. Yeah. Some studies that came out.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

And so a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 13:17

I think we'll have to find it. We'll see if we can find it and put in the show notes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, let's put what you find it, give it to me. Um, I had it at one point. Um, so many therapists, when they say, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, if I raise my fees, I'm taking from other people, I'm becoming, you know, the greedy man. Um that actually is not the case. When therapists have more money, they actually figure out how can I give, where can I serve, how can I make an impact. Now, if therapists just simply take that money and go on great vacations and live amazing lives, yay, I want it. But but therapists only do that so much. We're actually geared, wired, whatever it is, to really find out how can we help? How can we, you know, uh help people have a different experience than we had? We just do it automatically. So, one of the things that I think about, and also your question about um why has the salary gone down over time? Uh, is it because the individuals coming into the field are undervaluing the services, or is it the kind of coming top down, the very well-working system is doing what it's supposed to do? That's a fabulous question, and I think they're both come into play. So I I'm certain that um we've seen all over the place just the way that insurance reimburses therapists is just abysmal. Um, I can't imagine uh a rich white doctor of psychology in the 40s would accept uh what is now$60 an hour for a session. It just won't happen. Um but therapists so often do. We accept that. Okay, that's just what it has to be. Um, but even if we go into private practice, we continue to uh devalue our services. If someone comes in, we have we can talk all day long about um our own biases that go into devaluing our services, by the way. I so often hear therapists say, but I want white therapists, but also people of color, but I really want to work with people of color, so I have to charge low fees. Whoa, let's think that like that is a common um statement that folks make, and we really have to untangle that, which we do on our program. Uh let's pause it for a minute. What happened to you when I said that?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

I need to take that in because that blows my. I'm I'm both not shocked, but it also blows my mind. And I I see this a lot too, just in general in the business community, this idea of, and it does seem to come up more with race than with gender or other um kind of aspects, but this idea that if I want to work with people of color, if I want to work with this marginalized community, I have to charge lower rates. And it absolutely blows my mind because it's it's almost like, you know, it's sort of, I don't, I don't have a, I'm not gonna be eloquent explaining this, but it's almost like assuming that the person or that population isn't competent enough or valuable enough to have the money to afford the service. And it's, I understand it's coming from a good place of wanting to be um more available and more accessible to people, but the assumption and and I suppose in fairness, when we look at black wealth, it we don't see a lot of it because we're not shown a lot of it. Doesn't mean it's not there. Um, I actually talked about this. Um, we're in Pride Month right now, and uh one of the first days of the month, I posted about, you know, we need to be showing um LGBTQ joy and not just trauma. The trauma is important, we need to acknowledge it, we need to uh be aware of it happening, um, but we also need to share the joy because otherwise we're just reducing people in this group to trauma or to poverty or to whatever it is. And so when you say that, I'm just like, whoa, I it just you know, it's like I I I tell people in our community all the time who um who want to pay less for something. And I say, if you are devaluing that business's work, then what do you expect people to do to you? And I think it's a similar idea here. If you are telling a community you can't afford me, like kind of mindset is that putting out there?

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Yeah, and I and for people listening, if you're like, oh no, if you're falling into a shames file, I want to be open that I had that thought too when I first went to private practice, right? I was like, oh, I want to work with people of color, so I have to charge low rates. And I was able to catch myself and say, hold the phone, what am I thinking? And that really is the way people talk in our field, even with uh queer populations. You know, we have LGBTQ students who come in, therapists, and they say, I really want to work with a queer population. I really want to work with transgender folks, so I have to keep my fees low and be accessible. And it's just like, let's let's examine all of these assumptions. Yeah, yeah. Really paying attention to that.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Yeah, and and and two things to add on to that. First and foremost, we're I don't think you are, but I'm gonna speak for me and then you can tell me if you agree or not, but not saying that you can't offer scholarships or you can't offer, you know, a certain number of reduced fees or whatever, something like that. Absolutely. And I, you know, I work with a lot of my clients on how to set those those things up, but you're not doing that because you're making the assumption that a certain community can't afford you. You're doing that because there will always be people of any background who will have a challenge affording the work that you do. And, you know, many of us want to give back, and that's a way that we can do that. The other thing I always tell people, and you kind of said a version of this a few minutes ago, is that when we devalue our services and we we lower our prices out of fear or to accommodate or whatever it is, we are essentially sealing our death of that business. Because if we cannot sustain both the business itself and our lives, then we will not be able to continue to do that work. So anytime somebody says in our community, oh, I have to charge a slower price because I want to be able to help as many people as possible, I say you will not be helping them when you go out of business. And so if you want to help as many people as possible, you have got to charge what you need to make this business work. Um, and it's why we don't, I don't really stand for a lot of talk in our community about what's the cheapest or how do I get this cheaper or what it's it's a it's a bad mindset to get into. Um, not just, I mean, everybody loves a deal, I get it, but it's a bad mindset to get into of, you know, how do I pay as little as possible for something? Um, when in reality, I I happily support the businesses in my in my sphere because I want them to stay around forever so that they can continue to support me.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Absolutely. It's so many therapists. Are seeing their own therapist on a sliding scale rate, which literally they don't have to do because they're in their own business. So they could, they could be charging the their own therapist or paying their own therapist what their therapist would like to have. And so it just that trickles down to this devaluing of our work. So one of the things we encourage therapists in our program to do is go out and pay, even if it's not their own therapist, go out and see what it feels like to pay a therapist$250 per session. See what it feels like to sit in the presence of that person who's charging$250. And also really get into integrity about what we're doing in terms of paying for our own therapy or chiropractor or all the places where we can kind of try to get a deal. Stop trying to get a deal and actually pay full fee for the services you're having. Exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

It's yeah, it's a self-perpetuating problem, if you will. And I and again, I say the same thing in the online business community of if we keep trying to get people to get their prices down, then none of us are going to be around to serve each other. And it just doesn't work. And I also think, you know, you had said something earlier, and I'm forgetting exactly what it was, but about kind of the um the value of this stuff. I mean, when we think about the intangible and long-term benefits of good mental health care, it's I will, I happily will pay. Now, I do come from a place of privilege. I'm in a position to be able to do that, and I recognize that, but I know that every session with my therapist pays dividends in my personal life and my relationships and my business and all of that. And it's so critical. And the frustrating part is our country currently, our system does not really acknowledge that. Um, you know, in fact, I was having a conversation with my same therapist yesterday about um uh some some treatment that I'm gonna look into because I do struggle with anxiety, depression, and I've been open about that before. And the insurance company will only cover it if I've tried so many drugs first. And I sort of, I laugh at that laugh. It's not funny, but I laugh at that because it's like, are you kidding me? Like this therapy that will probably make me better in a few months. I have to try chemical after chemical after chemical after chemical before I you'll pay for that. Um, and I'm in a position, thankfully, to be able to pay out of pocket for it, but so many people aren't. And that's um, you know, again, and again, I'm not calling it a broken system because it's a system that was designed by health insurance companies and by drug companies, and it it's working the way they intended it to work. Um, but it doesn't work for most of us.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

It's really interesting. I'm gonna I'm gonna jump over to a different example here, but it makes me think about um how they just finally come out with some drugs for women going through menopause that are really helpful with the symptoms, right? And it's like if if dudes had been rich white dudes had been having menopause symptoms, they would never, right? It wouldn't even be a problem. It wouldn't be. 100%. Not to bag on dudes. We actually do have men in our program, but the men who come into our program are a very specific type of man because they're gonna, they're they're open and thoughtful and they're aware of these things. We need more guys like that, straight cis guys like that.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah, to be careful, be clear, we like dudes. Dudes are totally welcome.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

I got a dude in my house, got some kids with a dude.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

I got a couple of them, yeah. That came out wrong. I have a I have a spouse and a child. I would judge more. If that's your thing, that's cool too. I'm not judging, I'm just to clarify.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, so it is it is um, I think about uh coming back to this question of how do we make change, if therapists have more money and support and time and freedom. Actually, there's one therapist, um, Drew Rabadu, she's in New York, who actually during COVID had a pulmonary embolism. She was on our podcast, she talked about this. Uh pulmonary embolism, which made her realize I can't keep working on the way I have been working. Low fees, you know, give me back, this kind of thing. And so she was able to raise her fees. And now she's doing a lot of advocacy work around um getting maybe a therapist union going um so that we could start talking to insurance companies about increasing rates, like actually doing advocacy to make uh bigger changes in the system. If if therapy, if insurance reimbursed a reasonable rate, even dare we say a fabulous rate for therapists, um, a lot more people would have access to uh therapy. So again, when I'm out there talking, this is a very controversial topic. People come after me for this. How dare you? But but they're not saying how dare you, anthem Blue Cross, for reimbursing a therapist$60 per session, right? So go where the problem is. And if therapists have more money, more freedom, more access, they'll actually be able to start if they so choose, impacting that system.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Yeah, I mean, it's I love that so much. And and there's a um there's actually another interesting conversation that I kind of has been circling around, and I've also talked with my therapist about I love your therapist. Yeah, she's great. I I actually have three therapists, which is a whole other story, but I the one, I mean, I love them all. They're all fabulous. Um, but there's a few people out there um who are have been talking about how any of these basic human rights, healthcare, housing, those are the two big ones, education, I think might get on that list too. Um, how those shouldn't be profitized. How those should be because they're basic human rights. Um, and you know, the the people that I've seen talk about this talk about how people shouldn't be landlords because they're profitizing off of housing. And it's a really fascinating conversation, and I'm not bringing it up to say they're right or they're wrong. I it it the first time I heard this or I saw this conversation go down, I was like, that's really interesting. I'm really, I want to dig into that more. And I candidly don't know where I land on that. I have some pieces of it that I'm like, yes, that makes total sense, and others where I'm like, yeah, but I don't know. But I think it's interesting when you come to the healthcare piece because, you know, again, basic human right. And so, you know, that idea of profitization, and we look at the drug companies, we look at the insurance companies that are making so much money off of our healthcare, and let's be honest, not doing a great job at it. I mean, yes, there, you know, obviously there are drugs that are helpful, and you know, having insurance is is helpful. I'm using air quotes for anyone listening. Um, but our our country is unhealthy because we many of us don't have access to the care we need. And it's interesting that we've made the therapists the the enemies or the you know, the bad guys here, to your point. Um, when in reality, it's the the middle people in that system that are the ones raking in all the cash. And, you know, nobody's really, I mean, yeah, people bitch about their insurance company, people bitch about drug companies, but um I happen to I do a lot of work with Medicare for All. And let me just tell you, it's really hard to get people to pay attention to that idea as a concept, which is shocking given how much people hate their insurance companies. Um, so it's it's we've got to refocus our efforts on what piece of the system isn't working for us. And it's not the therapists who are trying to charge a reasonable rate for the really critical work they do.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I could not agree more. That's absolutely right. And and um it's much easier to attack a therapist who has a rate of$200 on their website than to attack Anthem Blue Cross. And so we've seen this a lot too, where individuals are just gone after um because we have a reaction. Oh no, am I bad? And Anthem Blue Cross, you go stand outside that by the way. I like Anthem Blue Cross, I have a PPO through my partner, thank you. So thank you for all your help you do it. Thank you for helping me with my own therapy. You better watch it, they're gonna cancel your insurance because the other one. But even like being beholden to um these these big companies. And again, I I'm also like, I don't know about what's for profit, what should it should it be? There's so much built into the system already. Um man, that it's a it's it's a struggle, which always brings me right back down to my business is just helping these therapists, and then they can go on and do what they do because it it's hard to figure out how to make an impact on the bigger system.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Well, and I'm so glad you just said that piece because I often um taught, we I often talk about in our emails and and other places about you know how it can all feel really overwhelming. And actually, for anyone who you know knows me really well knows that um after I ran for state senate and I lost, I really have struggled the last few years with what is my place in politics. I mean, I serve on some boards and I do still help, but I'm not a really loud voice in it right now because I I'm I'm like a squirrel in a field of nuts. I'm like immigration, healthcare, you know, free productive access, like all like I'm all voting rights, like I'm all over the place and I haven't figured out how do I make the biggest impact in an actual, in a meaningful way, given that I'm just one person. And so I love that, and when I made my comment earlier about how I I love what you do because it's so niche but so critical, it it's the perfect example of how to make an impact when everything feels really overwhelming, is to take something that you are really good at and you know, and or have gone through the journey of and share that with people so that you know, I mean, yeah, in the whole big scheme of the world, you're touching a small piece, but it is a huge piece that has a great ripple effect. And if the more we can do that, I mean, I think we get so overwhelmed and crippled by this idea of like, I'm not gonna do anything because nothing I do is gonna have a big enough impact. But in reality, you can absolutely take small steps that have a huge impact. You just have to recognize that it's the ripple effects of those impacts that is really um where the magic happens. It's not just that one person you've helped, but who they help and so on and so on and so on.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

That's right. I think that's one of the really cool things about being a therapist. I no longer have a private practice, but even over the time I was working there, seeing the our client, my clients who then would be having to be different in their own families of origin and then having to be different, like it's changing systems on a on a micro level. Yeah. And and it's still um, there's the difficulty, and I think about this too. I I've been thinking more the past couple of weeks of the impact it's sometimes hard for me to even think about that I've made in our field. Um nobody was talking about this uh five or seven years ago. And now I'm starting to see more and more people talk, more and more therapists making like tens of thousands of therapists I'm seeing are now having these conversations that have never been had before. It's like, wow, that's wild. And I sometimes do think if every therapist really does start valuing their services and charging for what they do, who will help the little guy? You know, I do think about those things, and so it it is easy to, especially for people who care, um, it's easy to get in our own heads about what does this mean on a bigger level? And coming back to that idea of if more people have freedom, more people who are ethical, who value um inequity and change, if if more folks like that have access, then there will be a bigger ripple effect overall.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Well, and and I can answer that question for you, which is if therapists make more money, then they will, then more people will enter the field. And then that will be more people who are helping people, and then that'll be more people who have time and energy and money because now they're making enough to afford their lives, who can go out there and be activists to change the healthcare system so that it does work for everybody, and that the people who can't afford$250 an hour can now get access to that, you know, under a better system, which I won't spend the entire um episode talking about Medicare for all. That's my preferred answer. Everybody might have a different one. Um, but but yeah, I mean that's the thing. And and it goes back to what I said earlier about if we can't afford to sustain, we're not gonna have any impact at all. So we have to do this. This isn't a choice. We have to do this. And it will have a ripple effect and it will have an impact on our communities. Um, and we won't leave people out because we'll be in a better position to help more people, believe it or not, even though it feels counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Ultimately.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

So I just I love that. And I want to just thank you for being here because I have loved this conversation. I could honestly talk to you for hours about this. Um, healthcare and mental health is one of the one of my when when I'm when I'm the squirrel in the field, it's one of the nuts that I'm, you know, particularly drawn to. Um, but I also want, before we wrap up, folks to just hear a little bit more about where they can find you if they are a therapist, how can they um get into your program and just anything else you want folks to know and and maybe a final message as well to anyone listening, uh, you know, about how to kind of start down this path of changing the narrative around what we charge. Uh excellent.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

So I'm like, that's a big question. Let me think on that one. That was like seven questions. Um you can find me, you can go to Instagram at lean in make bank. That's our Instagram handle. Um, we also have a fee calculator. You also might have children in the background. One of the ways I've set up my business is to have my daughter home with her little friend and they hang out downstairs, so you might hear them. Um we have a fee calculator. So if you're actually trying to figure out what should my fee should be, not based on fears or anxieties or you know what my neighbor's doing, but actually based on your financial situation, we have a fee calculator. You can go to leaninmakebank.com forward slash fee calculator. Uh and then the final word I'll leave folks with, if you're a therapist, if you're a social worker particularly, and I know this will apply to other professions as well, but therapists and social workers, I'm talking to you. Um when we think about, when you think about your values, what your values are or what your ethical standards are, I want to encourage you to include yourself in that. So often we think about my value is giving back, my value is making an impact in the lives of X, Y, Z. You're that too, right? So it's actually unethical to be overworking yourself, being stressed out, being burdened, putting yourself blast, neglecting your emotional needs. I suspect that's not within your value or your code of ethics to be treating yourself that way if you're also not wanting to um treat others that way as well. So I encourage you to take up space, um, take care of your little parts, and um start imagining what could be possible for you if you took care of you.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Oh my gosh, I love that. That was beautiful, thank you. And I I do think a message that applies to everyone. So uh I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to you for being here for your time today. Uh just really excited to get this conversation out in the world. Uh, for everyone listening, we will have all of those links inside of the show notes. Um, but thank you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

And I do want to say for folks who I don't know if you don't know Meg, Meg, I don't know how you do all this stuff, but you have not only are you in my accountant, but you have clubs and calls and these activist newsletters and like passionate money Friday tips. So, really, again, I don't know how you do it all, but you don't just like look at my numbers, you're actually creating like a whole community around all of this stuff. So thank you for what you're doing out there too. And if anyone out there is looking for help with your numbers, definitely check out what Meg has going on for sure.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Well, thank you for that. And you just made me so happy because now I know at least one person is reading my Friday money tip.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

So sometimes, sometimes when I do, I definitely keep those in there. And I'm like, okay, I gotta read those before I can archive them. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

That's that's actually a really good point. We should have something on the website that's like, you know, a place for that. I love it. I love it's a great idea already. Um, well, thank you again for being here. Thanks to our listeners for um sticking through another episode of Disrupt Your Money. Uh, again, you can always find our show notes at disruptyourmoney.com. Please like us, review us, subscribe to this podcast, and we'll see you back here next week for another episode of Disrupt Your Money. Thanks for listening to Disrupt Your Money. If you have a money question you'd like answered in a future episode, go to disruptyourmoney.com. To support the podcast, please rate and review it wherever you get your podcasts. And if you want access to all of my free templates, checklists, resources, and guides, click the link for the Biz Money Library in the show notes.