This is a Metaphor
There are so many ways to be a person. This Is A Metaphor is what happens when a curious creative can’t stop connecting dots. Life hands you a breakup, a bird call, a bagel? Boom. That’s a metaphor. This show isn’t therapy, and it isn’t theater, but it is art. It’s an existential treasure hunt—with jokes. Hosted by Mo Houston, a sharp-witted, soul-deep storyteller who views life through many lenses. She who knows the world makes sense… if you squint really hard. She’s lived out of suitcases and studios, built brands and burned out, laughed onstage and cried in voice notes. This podcast is kind of a memoir, a mirror, and definitely a metaphor.
This is a Metaphor
Really Good People w/ Matt Lathrom
What do fragile dreams, public grief, and indie film have in common? More than you might think. Mo & Matt Lathrom (from the last guest episode) start with an unsettling “protect the tiny creature” dreams and move through the losses of cultural icons, asking what kind of space opens when giants leave—and who has the courage to fill it. Along the way, they talk illness, resilience, and why a single look in a scene can change how you feel about a character more than any speech ever could.
Matt, a visual effects artist, writer, and producer, joins Mo to unpack what really happens behind the Sundance mystique: submissions with unfinished shots, the quiet bravery of showing work-in-progress to people who can truly see it, and the unspoken rule of respecting the room. From there they wade into today’s biggest creative fault line—AI. They challenge the myth of “AI actors,” the promise of cheap, automated storytelling, and why those projects become expensive VFX pipelines the moment you ask for continuity, pores, light, and soul. Productivity without purpose is a trap; the point isn’t more output, it’s better outcomes.
They also get practical. Where AI can help—scaffolding ideas, clarifying structure, reducing noise—it’s a tool. Where it starts replacing performance, editing intuition, or the moral labor of choosing what to show and why, it’s a cost we shouldn’t hide. Film remains our best empathy engine, letting us sit with people we’d otherwise never understand. If you’ve been waiting to start your script, short, or show, consider this your nudge. Begin messy. Share early. Keep the room respectful. And keep showing up, because the space our legends leave won’t fill itself.
If this spoke to you, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a quick review—what part changed how you see the creative future?
Instagram: @this.is.a.metaphor & @joyscout.mo
Email Mo: mo@joyscoutstudio.com
Cover Design by: Joyscout Studio // For commissioned art & design inquiries: Joyscout Studio
“Don’t get Deterred, get Inspired”
Do you ever have those dreams though where you're putting like you find a small animal and you decide that you you know you want to save it or something or it's hurt or you just want to get it out of harm's way, and so you have all these things to do in your dream and you decide to put it in your pocket, or like you can't carry everything you're carrying, and then you accidentally crush this tiny creature that you're trying to save. Or you injure it or it becomes some other creature or you just forget about it, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I don't know if you uh it's usually babies for me. Like I'm saving a small baby, and then like I drop it, and I'm I'm like, no.
SPEAKER_05:Today is a continuation of a conversation that I had with my friend Matt, who is a visual effects specialist, artist, mastermind, magician, um, storyteller. He is a script writer, he is a well-rounded creative human, and he was kind enough to have a second conversation with me because the first one well, it was delightfully long, and there was more that we wanted to to dive into. And so that's kind of the joy of having your own podcast is that you get to do to do that. You get there are no rules here. There are no rules. When you're pursuing art and what it is uh that lights you up and someone else is on board to to light up with you, um keep going. Like that's uh that that is exactly how to do it, I think. If there's any right way to do it, it's the way that is fun. Um and you get to make the rules, and so here they are. And today is exciting because our conversation just goes We talk about a lot of stuff, and I really appreciate that about him. And one of the things that's really beautiful about what we get to talk about is that sometimes we find our way around discussing film or or characters, or we reference a lot of cinema because it's a way to connect more with the stories that we're telling each other, and just as uh wonderful bits of of information that why you know, you know, why would you not want to talk about it? Why would you not want to share it? And as someone who wants to very much be inside of the film industry, that will be me. Um yeah, I'll just eat it up all day, every day. Like a project thing? Like, do you think babies represent projects or just delicate things? I don't know. Or youth.
SPEAKER_00:Youth, maybe. I don't know. I think of the movie uh eraser head whenever that happens, because you know, he deals with the like small, fragile child in eraser head. He's like unwrapping the bandages on it, but then it turns out the bandages are just like its body, and so he like opens it up. It's like horrifying. Yeah. But I feel like that it triggers what I feel in dreams when I'm dealing with a small creature or a baby and I accidentally like kill it or hurt it.
SPEAKER_05:Would you recommend a racer head to someone who is easily disturbed?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Really? Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I think David Lynch is something you should definitely watch.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, that's okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:R.I.P. Oh man, it sucks that the world is without David Lynch.
SPEAKER_05:I don't think I understood the enormity of his work until like after this passing. And then I think that kind of sometimes happens when people pass. I think people that you think you have more time with too in their careers, but he was like a lot older than I think I thought that he was too, which yeah, not that that matters because you can die at whatever age, but yeah, um that was shocking, and yet I don't know, he was one of the people that's passed. He was at the beginning of this year, wasn't he?
SPEAKER_00:Or was it the yeah, because of the fires.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because he had emphysema and him having to move, and you know, there's just a California fires were too much, and so he declined pretty quick. Oh man.
SPEAKER_05:I I heard that with Diane Keaton that her I don't know if you saw, but like her family released a statement that said like what was going on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I only saw that she like her health declined quickly over a week, but I didn't see why.
SPEAKER_05:She had pneumonia.
SPEAKER_00:Dude.
SPEAKER_05:I know, and I mean that will that will just it's so tragic because like you know, uh pneumonia is one of those things that no matter what age you are, and I think no matter even how advanced we've become with medicine and and like self-care, it's pneumonia can fucking knock you over. I mean, it's like I had pneumonia as a four-year-old, actually. Like I had pneumonia and it was terrible when I was in the hospital.
unknown:Dude.
SPEAKER_05:Like most people are, but for an older person, even like a healthy, vibrant, stunning person like Diane Keaton. Have you had pneumonia?
SPEAKER_00:I had it this year.
SPEAKER_05:What?
SPEAKER_00:I had it in I don't know that I don't think you did. Uh I had it in January, right after the fires, I think because of the fires. Because I have asthma and allergies, and so I think that it just you know disturbed my delicate ecosystem. And uh yeah, it was horrible. It's the worst sick I've ever been. I lost 15 pounds in like a couple weeks. Uh yeah, I was I kind of want to lose that again because I've regained it and some. I felt it was weird though. It it was so first of all, it I was so sick, I ended up going to the hospital. I was on like two things of antibiotics. It was right before sundance. So, like the day before sundance, my lungs finally cleared so I could go. But it was so horrible. It was like coughing all night, literally not sleeping at a wink, coughing all night, being I was lightheaded in the morning, like almost passed out. It was, and then my like ribs were sore for like a month, and the cough didn't actually go away for like six months. I would say like two, like a month and a half, two months ago was when the residual was finally gone, which is crazy.
SPEAKER_05:When I was in college, I ended up getting like walking pneumonia, and then that develops into like bronchitis, which is like maybe what you got after, because like that's the the cough sometimes at last is just the total aggravation of your your throat and your chest. And I ended up cracking a rib. Oh I had fallen asleep in a very tight dress as you know, a college student, and I was coughing so bad that it was just the the pressure was like and so trying to heal a rib, and then also having just nonstop coughing, that was that was one of those times where I was like, this is the rest of my life. I won't this will never be this will never not be this feeling, you know? And and then one day you stop coughing.
SPEAKER_00:And you're like, oh my god, whoa, I can I can breathe again. That dude, the let the the rib thing, I'm always I'm like, did I break something? Is it am I gonna die? What's what's happening? I thought I actually thought briefly during it that I could die. I was like, especially with asthma. I'm like, if something just goes wrong, you know, I've had asthma since I was a kid, pretty severe asthma, and it was I was coughing so much, and my lungs were so compromised, and I was on like prednisone and all kinds of shit. I was like, dude, if one thing goes wrong, I am fucked. Luckily, I survived.
SPEAKER_05:Do you when I I so I was I think I was 10 when I got I was like sports-related asthma, and I remember do you do you do you remember like when was the last time you had like an asthma attack?
SPEAKER_00:I would say during pneumonia I had some asthma attacks and briefly afterward, not like attacks attacks. I haven't had an attack attack since I was like a kid. Yeah, but you had sports.
SPEAKER_05:Well, did you cry?
SPEAKER_00:Did I cry?
SPEAKER_05:Do you remember I because I remember I just remember the feeling of not being able to breathe, which I think that most a lot of people don't understand like how insanely surreal it becomes when you like can't catch your next breath, and then your body starts going into overdrive trying to accommodate, and then suddenly, like you are there's like a different type of fear. And I remember as a kid, like I'd have an asthma attack every game, and I would start I would just involuntarily be like bawling my eyes out just because of like being maybe very aggravated athletically, and then like your insides are like screaming for air. But was it like that for you when you were when what was like aggravating for you?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, there were times I cried. I had it since I was really little, and a pretty good amount of my growing up when I was really little was asthma attacks like every night. So I think I eventually kind of got used to it, but I would say there were definitely times where it was so bad I probably cried. But I've had control of my asthma and allergies pretty well since I've been an adult.
SPEAKER_05:That's that's insane. How long did that last for? For like every night or every other night?
SPEAKER_00:Years.
SPEAKER_02:That's wild.
SPEAKER_00:Because they hadn't come out with any medicine that really controlled it well until until they came out with singular. And then I've been on singular since I was like 13 or something like that. Take it every day since I was like 13.
SPEAKER_05:That's cool that it still works though, because sometimes the longer you're on something, it's like, well, we gotta find something new. And then just the process of someone trying to find a new medication is trial and error, which is frustrating.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, when I get off it, I can definitely feel it.
SPEAKER_05:So we're gonna we're doing something today, which is basically going again after our first recording because one is learning myself, learning audio and I think pace and and feedback, and I always fucking love talking to you. So you were quite a friend and and said that you would record again. And I think it's important to let the people know that I said your name wrong, which I can't remember if I said it was so close, but it's Lei, right? Like Lathrum.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Lathrum.
SPEAKER_05:Lathrum. So it's like a um, it's more of a um.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And yeah, I say Lothrum. And I am sure a few years I'm saying it this way. And as I was recording the intro last week, or I guess a week and a half ago, I was like, what if I don't say his name right? And I had this glimpse of this memory of me, of you telling me like years ago, maybe when I when I saw you in Los Angeles, but they say it, but time is funny and fickle, and names are just there's not a rule. There's not really a rule unless you know the rule.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And yours is Houston, right?
SPEAKER_05:I have had people have it used to be Houston, I think. It was like a I mean, I don't know for sure, but there's there's some rules in my family that say that maybe during the 50s it was changed to Houston because you know, a little bit after the war, Houston has some quite a bit of German-ness in it.
SPEAKER_00:So I kind of like Houston, the Houston that Mo built.
SPEAKER_05:It is it is I such a fun, it is actually a fun name, I think. However, my mom's maiden name is Ritten House, and so a very cool combination of house, something house. I don't know if that's manifested in some way.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe something that was a really cool name up until maybe four years ago.
SPEAKER_04:Rittenhouse?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Wait, is there wait? Uh who am I? Who am I? Is there like a person that I'm not?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I really don't want to go there, but Kyle Rittenhouse? Kyle Ritten House.
SPEAKER_04:Kyle Rittenhouse. Okay, never mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was uh I wonder my mom has a cousin's name who's Kyle, but I don't think he's a Rittenhouse, which is hilarious. But my brother is a Kyle, so you know maybe just parallel universes of total chaos exactly. I thought you were talking about some written house, and I'm like, that was a long time ago, so I feel like that's not that's not what's going on. Yeah. Are there things that you want to talk about today?
SPEAKER_00:I want to talk about whatever you want to talk about and whatever we want to talk about.
SPEAKER_05:I want to talk about a bunch of stuff, but also to not force oneself. I think, oh, you know, one of the things that we'd said that, you know, we were just feeding into each other's energy, and it was maybe towards the second half of our conversation, is we were talking about a lot of cinema and film, and you had been talking about Sundance, and then we talked about, I mean, the day that we recorded was the day that Robert Redford had passed.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, really? Was it?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Or he had just passed, I think, like either the like the day before or the day that we were recording. And that was, I think that was another one of those famous passings. Because since then, Jane Goodall has passed, and so has Danny Keaton.
SPEAKER_00:Dude.
SPEAKER_05:And it's like I just feel like the internet always rises to the occasion as far as people really sharing when someone had a huge impact on their lives. And with Robert Redford, I mean, I felt I felt sad when I saw that he had passed. And I, you know, I had seen Out of Africa a couple of months ago for the first time ever, which I thought was like, and it's just a brilliant movie. But I'm I've not seen a bunch of his movies, but I have certainly seen, you know, films from his lifetime. And and I remember every time he would be on screen, someone around me would just say, I just love Robert, right? I just they just love him, or like, you know, he's so dreamy, or like he's such a good person. And and I feel like with these three recent passings, everyone had something. It was all like this was a really good person. Like Jane Goodall was is the mother of of chimpanzees, or yeah, she was like a legendary uh researcher in apes and chimps and stuff.
SPEAKER_00:Which is a much nicer way to say what she did. Or eloquent.
SPEAKER_05:I saw a quote which I think I I shared with you that was saying, you know, and it's one of these sort of mantras which a lot of people are probably adhering to their lives right now to stay in a more hopeful frame of mind. But it's like, you know, when something leaves, you make space for something new and and and a bit of goodness or greatness to come in, you know, and it's like sometimes you lose things, but it provides space. And like I saw this right after I'd seen maybe something about Diane Keaton and how inspiring she was as just an independent female and a woman who seemed to be entirely herself throughout her lifetime and to not make a sacrifice as to who she was and how she believed herself to show up in the world. Then to add on to this, so this is a lot of this a lot of ideas, but with the um with Robert Irwin doing the celebrity like contemporary dance, did you see that?
SPEAKER_00:I haven't seen it yet, no.
SPEAKER_05:So he is, you know, I followed his Instagram for a few years now, just because like it he just was so much like the Steve Irwin that I remember, but also like as his child, and then seeing the family and just being like just always feeling so good when I saw their post or like what they were doing, or like how they interacted, how they treated people, how they were in the comments section, how they how they include themselves in each other's, you know, online personal branding, really. And their branding is very much who they are. And so many people like reposted this this dance, this this tribute that he did to his mom, and which she was there to like receive, and then at the end of the dance, she was up there with him and they did an embrace. And I was just like, whoo! I mean, I I was crying deeply because like we were all there when Steve Irwin passed, and like to be able to to somehow see a kid grow up in the world, a world that we all have some perception of as maybe being a celebrity or walking into fame, like and to just be such a good person, yeah, and like how we're so hungry for people to like from for model for role models of for good people, good people, like we're so hungry for it.
SPEAKER_00:We just want good people, it's all we've had a we've had a good like 20 years of all of our heroes turning out to be terrible people.
SPEAKER_05:Ooh, that gave me chills. You don't want to see the man behind the curtain because it's and then yeah, I mean, there's a fear there too that you don't want to see some of the people who you still believe in deeply to turn out to be like wildly corrupt or not as kind as you as you think. Like, I was at a a barbecue grill out or whatever a few weeks ago, and we were all standing around these, you know, ribs that this person has smoked for like 12 hours or whatever it was. And we were talking about I think it was like a movie that had just come out and like fandom, and someone had said something about Ryan Gosling, and then they were like, Oh yeah, Ryan Gosselins, and I love Ryan Gosling. And uh, the girl at the party was like, No, we don't like Ryan Gosling anymore. We don't remember? We know I know, and I was like, What? What happened? What happened to Ryan? And I was just immediately like, I can't take it, I can't take it, don't tell me. Like, I don't want to know if something bad.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. This is what happened with Ryan Gosling.
SPEAKER_05:And then I was like, Do you mean Ryan Reynolds? That's what I you know, is that maybe what you mean? And you know, it was just like, it's just on this side of the camera, on this side of the screen where she was just, you know, feeding off of gossip and and media that was kind of putting this person in not as favorable light as they had been in for a very long time, I would say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And so, but like for her to say that about like it was crazy how immediately everyone in the room was like, no, please, please don't take another person.
SPEAKER_04:Let him be good.
SPEAKER_00:Don't take away Ry Rai. We love him.
SPEAKER_04:Please no.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_05:There's like a just uh a hunger for I guess too that the idea of like making space is just you know, how are you gonna show up? Like what it what impact do those people have on like were you a Diane Keaton fan?
SPEAKER_00:Not particularly, like I've seen her movies, but I I wouldn't say that I was like a fan. Honestly, you know, I feel really bad about this as like a film guy, but I am not in like super familiar with the filmography of Diane Keaton or Robert Redford. Like I've seen a few movies, but not like I couldn't sit here and start like giving a dissertation on Robert Redford and Diane Keaton's careers. What did you like about Diane Keaton? What what struck you about?
SPEAKER_05:I well, I it seems as though she was very capable of completely maybe becoming the role that she's playing, and there's a I feel like she had an ability to be the very rational one, very irrationally, like her ability to show both sides of really like maybe humanity and it's and you know, like the the masculinity in it, which I think probably comes out a lot in her style, but also this just this like softness, man. Like, I don't know. When I pulled up, when I pulled up my Instagram and the first thing I saw was her photo, I immediately thought, this isn't what I think it is. Like that's what I thought because I thought that she would be around forever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you feel that way, right? Like, especially when you grew up with them, all of these legends, you're like, I didn't think about Robert Redford dying. When Arnold Schwarzenegger dies, that's gonna be like weird for me. That one's gonna hit me.
SPEAKER_05:Is that one of your big heavy hitters growing up?
SPEAKER_00:I think just being aware, like so aware of Arnold Schwarzenegger for so much of my life and like loving Terminator and Terminator 2, and you know, being really into action movies when I was young, growing up with Arnold as like the action guy. When he passes, it's gonna be like, whoa, we live in a world without Arnold Schwarzenegger.
SPEAKER_05:His ability to make you laugh, I feel like, is something that I mean jingle all the way, come on.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe not a masterpiece, but what a grateful you were saying, like it's a question of do these like when these people pass, is there space to be filled? Like, what is what is the space when they pass? Is there yeah? I mean, no one can fill those shoes really, but you can be inspired by them.
SPEAKER_05:Inspiration is deeply needed at the moment, I would say.
SPEAKER_00:Why? The world's awesome.
SPEAKER_05:The world is it's really coming around. I feel like it's really shaping up, you know? And there was a moment there where I was like, this isn't good, but right now I feel screened about it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I keep like looking up, I keep looking up places, I'm like, well, what if I left the country and I look up a place, I'm like, damn, that place sucks too. Oh wait, no, this place is getting bad too. No, it's global. What's happening? But but I I think film is important in that way. Because film can make you sit with a perspective that you're not comfortable with, and it can make you feel for a person that you wouldn't normally feel with, feel for. That's why I like that's why I love film. You can sit there and empathize with somebody who you would never empathize with if you heard about them. Someone's like, Oh, have you heard about this person? Oh no, I hate them, they're terrible. But then you watch a movie and you're like, I feel for them now. I understand them. And it's not even willing, it's not even willing. You're just being pulled along by the narrative.
SPEAKER_05:I like great narrative. There's um, because I know when we were talking about maybe some of the talk points that we could talk about today, we were we were wondering if maybe we wanted to talk about ice at all. And it was like after we'd said this, I was driving around town and I saw so many ice machines, you know, like the like just ice machines where it was just big like I C E and yeah, you know, like cartoon ice. And I was like, they might have to rebrand, man.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:This might not be, you know, what is their I mean they're pretty cold-hearted, so it's kind of kind of worse.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Bazinga.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god, why did I bring that up?
SPEAKER_00:We were definitely you had just said something that was like I said the world, we said the world's awesome, and then I said I looked at places to leave and go out of the country, and I was like, oh man, everywhere kind of sucks.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, so when it comes to film being able to kind of carry you away in a narrative that maybe you would never have experienced and or been compassionate about, there was this post by the New Yorker cartoon that was, you know, they usually post cartoons, but they were talking about they're very much attacking anyone who's signing up to to work for ICE to be an ex agent. And it was one of those moments where I was like, you know, you're like not, you're not wrong for like trying to like show someone that like this is not the most humane thing that you can do. But at the same time, I was so disappointed in like how they did it because they the you know, it was a carousel post like on Instagram, and it was basically saying that you know, the same person who's being paid$50,000 sign-on, I think I think it's$50K, isn't it? Something like that. It's like you're getting paid a$50,000 sign-on to hide your face, and you're probably the same person that didn't want to wear a mask during COVID. And it was like that's funny.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't thought about that.
SPEAKER_05:And I mean, you know, it's like funny, but like it made me angry because I was like, this is this is not the way to do it. Like it's divisive, and it's also grouping people together that maybe aren't in the same group because man, it sucks to know that so many people are signing up to do this out of maybe being lost or angry, or maybe some idea of patriotism. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe desperation too, because jobs are hard to get.
SPEAKER_05:And that's the one for me that I'm like, you're being so alienating towards a person who could probably use$50,000, you know, and and what they're doing, maybe technically, if they were doing it entirely by the book, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, but it would be morally gray and hard to feel empathy towards, you know. And and we're growing up grown up in a world and an economy that very much wants you to be a very rich person. There's so much changing and and fluctuating happening with like how one shows up to receive money in this world that I'm like, how how dare you, New Yorker cartoons, to just yeah, be that's not the way to deliver the message. I was like a lot of hate, and I'm like, I don't know how to do it with love, but like I don't think this is the way, is how I felt about that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's like I get it, I'm frustrated too by them. And the New Yorker isn't necessarily wrong, but it's not the way, it's it's the least creative way to approach that conversation, I think.
SPEAKER_05:Um That's a really good point. It's I mean I expect more. Like I expect more from you. Yeah, a bunch of creatives, like a bunch of writers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's like I really do feel like we need to elevate the way that we talk about things like this. As much as it sucks, and as much as decorum has been stripped away, we need to like do the hard work of learning how to talk about these things intelligently. Like, I know that the world's getting dumped down, and you know, there's this kind of stigma against elitism and intellectualism, but I think you need it. We need it because this is the alternative. This is the alternative, the way we're talking now and the way the world exists now, where the clowns are running the country and uh uh morons are running like big institutions, you know, getting on TV telling you absolutely insane things. You're like, is this the world you want? No, okay, then we gotta start talking like it.
SPEAKER_05:I really wish I remembered word for word uh a quote I had heard. He was a Marine who had served two tours, I think. And so he had, I would say he's one of those people who could talk about what he thought bravery was, like a little different than the average person. But he had said that some of the bravest things that he'd ever done were out of sheer stupidity. And I was like, it was just one of those sentences that was like, whoa, you know, like gonna blow my mind because I feel like a lot of people who have found their way into a position of power are deeply there's not as much of a I mean, just look at like I guess what the White House is posting right now. Like, you don't have a bunch of writers on your staff, like you don't have a bunch of writers, you're writing from a different place. And and at the same time, it's just as like it's the same, it's either someone's really good with words and they're using it to manipulate you, or someone is not as good at words, and they're just like maybe not even saying what they think they're saying, which is really the scariest part. Is that like, do you know what you're saying? What if you didn't? What if they didn't know the absolute like hate that is in or the embarrassment I think that I feel in reading them at times, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, we grew up in a I mean it's it's blowing our minds a little bit because we did grow up in a world with some level of decorum where there was an understanding that you had to talk at least a certain way. And I think we I think the internet's just poisoned everybody's brains, like the comment sections and the way that you can talk in the internet, and the Overton window has shifted and now and then we had one person come in and kind of break things, and I get that it felt good to watch somebody talk shit to a bunch of politicians who you're used to watching use language to conceal the truth, to watch somebody come in there and like shatter their entire system, but like that person isn't building anything in its place, they're just going in there with a hammer and smashing things. That's a big that's a big thing I talk with people when they're when you know I have a friend who's you know into this, into this stuff, and I'm like, dude, they're not building anything, they're just smashing things. Like, I'm I might be interested if they're putting something in its place, but no, they're just wrecking the Department of Education, they're wrecking the economy, they're wrecking regulations, they're wrecking Supreme Court decisions. This they didn't put anything in its place, they wrecked abortion and they just said, Oh, we'll let the states handle it. Okay, cool. So you just like smashed it and said, Okay, somebody will figure out how to fix it. Come on. The real hard work is sitting there and thinking, I don't like how this system works right now. How do I get it to a system that works better? And their answer seems to be, let's just smash the way it is now and see what happens. That's not, I mean, human beings aren't coordinated or intelligent enough to pick up that rubble and make something good out of it that quickly. So a lot of people are gonna suffer in the meantime, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and we don't really have the resources to to do that. Like the time resource. You know, it would be great to be like, you know what, I'm gonna set down my life right now and I'm gonna fix this. But like, who the fuck can do that unless maybe Your life's already wrecked, in which case one would argue you still don't have a lot of time to focus on anything other than yourself.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So how do you feel about California at doing things at the state level? Because it seems like there's quite a bit happening.
SPEAKER_03:Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, like AI comes to mind. I think the most on the as far as what I can see from over here is that there's like movement on limiting AI, which seems kind of cool. AI representation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, like uh like Newsome sign the thing, where I haven't read into it, I just saw headlines that you can't use a person's likeness with AI without their permission, something like that.
SPEAKER_05:I think I saw too the because of the the actress, the AI Tilly Norway. Yes, that you know, it's it's it's stupid, and yet like what else is to be expected? It's like it's like so stupid. That's honestly the best way that I know just put it with you, is like it's so fucking stupid because you understand exactly why this person has done it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And you know, she I think she's like 36, 37, the creator of this this actress, this AI actress, you know. Yeah, and she probably just wants to like fund her life in some way. And she's like, well, they like that, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00:Like, it's probably not the worst thing someone's ever done, and yet the aftermath of it and the stupidity of it is like but I don't know, I don't know, but I feel like I just took that in a totally different direction, and we don't have to continue well in that direction, but well, here let's put it this way that is not the way to fill the space left by people like Robert Redford and Diane Keaton. I don't, you know, the guy who created the Sundance Film Festival.
SPEAKER_05:Man, how was what was the energy at Sundance this year?
SPEAKER_00:Um Well, it was right after the well, I think the fires were still going on. So it was during that. So obviously that was a topic of conversation with everybody.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, wait, so I'm sorry, for some reason when we talked, I was like, Sundance is happening, Sundance that happens at the beginning of the year, and right now you were doing submissions.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah. I was working on movies that were trying to hit the Sundance submission date, which is not super strict because you're just sending them a link to your movie. So it's like basically the movies I was working on wanted to have some key VFX VFX shots done for their submission, just in the event that Sundance people watch their movie right away. Um but you can after submission continue to update the Sundance link so that when they do watch it, they'll see, you know, see your movie the way you want them to see it.
SPEAKER_05:That's really cool. That's really inspiring.
SPEAKER_00:I had yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_05:No, no, you go, you go.
SPEAKER_00:No, you go. Uh yeah, I had a few movies, I had two movies in in Sundance last year, and so we hit that date, and that was actually I think one of them we we were shooting for January. Like they had already submitted it, but they you know, there was a lot of like blue screen and incomplete VFX in it, and so we finished it by like January for the final showing because it did get it in accepted into Sundance, so we wanted to finish it by that date. This year I was working on movies that were submitting to Sundance and South By to hopefully get in. So we'll see what happens.
SPEAKER_05:That is really inspiring because there's I think when it comes to showing unfinished things, that it can be it's like one of the scariest things you can do if you're showing it to someone who doesn't understand at all what you're doing. And like if you don't know what you're doing, that their feedback can be just wildly demoralizing, or like you know, just put a bit of a trip up in your step, I think, you know, to but enable to put it in front of a film committee is like something to like these people who they know, like they know, and like to be able to show that you know what you're doing and you're not quite there yet, and for them to still accept it is just like that's gotta be like a super invigorating feeling.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely. And the energy is it is you know it's weird. You hear these stories about people walking out of movies at Sundance, and after go, this was my first this last year was my first year going. I'm like, how do you do that? That just seems really embarrassing and weird to do. It doesn't feel like the vibe. I mean, maybe I'm just not in the right circles or didn't go to the right movies, but I'm like, I don't I can't imagine myself walking out of a Sundance movie. Maybe it could be one of those things where they like walk out of that one to go to a different one or something because they're like, well, this movie's turning out not to be so amazing, and I really wanted to see this one. But the idea of people walking out in like protest because the movie was so bad just seems weird to me. I you know, not every movie I saw there was a banger, but they weren't so like I wouldn't have walked out on any of them, and I finished them and I had interesting thoughts about them and like got to talk to some of the filmmakers, but yeah, it seems weird.
SPEAKER_05:I was it was and I was kind of an envisioning music festival where you're like, I love this performer, but I'm trying to make it over there by the time that you know they're going on at the same time, and you gotta like make it across the terrain to go see someone else that you also love. But I don't think it's I don't think it's like that. I don't think it's like that. It's I mean it's film, it's a totally different experience, and someone's telling a story, you know. It's not an album that you've listened to for three years straight, or like, you know, can't stop playing the last month and a half or something. It's like yeah, you kind of have to be present for the whole thing. And like, and you're kind of there to be present for the whole thing, aren't you? Like good or bad, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like that's the situation, and it can sometimes be hard to even get into a movie there. So I feel like once you get in, you don't really want to leave. I wouldn't.
SPEAKER_05:Why is it hard to get into? Is it just a lot of people? Depending on like a first problem?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and depending on the movie, there's like a waiting list. So, like there's a few movies like I went and saw Bubble and Squeak, which I worked on, and there was a bit of a waiting list to get get in on that one. Like I got in, but the other two people I worked on it with, like they were only able to get one ticket for us, and so the other two had to try to snipe a ticket and get in on the waiting list. Because they fill up fast, especially if it's a popular movie that everybody wants to see, it fills up really quick.
SPEAKER_05:Wonder if there's like a level of of gratitude like missing at a certain point with the industry changing where it's like you still show respect for being there and like you know, excited to be to be seeing it, like first eyes type thing.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like that's the way it would be. Like if you walked out, then it's like you kind of are not currying any favor with that particular filmmaker.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's very personal. That that's like that's I would imagine that's deeply like no offense, but like offense taken.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're the guy who walked out on my movie. I'm not gonna work with you.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah, it kind of goes back to what you were saying too about the chili Norwood, Norwood, Norwood. Does it matter though? I can probably say her name wrong, and it wouldn't mean anything. There's no history there.
SPEAKER_00:It's nothing. It is nothing.
SPEAKER_05:It's not it's not years and years of ancestors coming from other countries to say her name with their historic background and origins.
SPEAKER_00:She's nothing. They typed into a thing. What's a an all-American good name for a AI actress with brown hair, and it spit out like 10 options, and they chose that one.
SPEAKER_05:Tilly sounds cute. Yeah, but it makes me think about that, where it's just so money-driven, and it's not about I mean, Sundance is about from my end, my idea of Sundance is so much about the independent filmmaker and the idea, and like getting getting supported through probably community and and people with a lot of experience and like being able to show a lot of like forthcoming things and and and yet, yeah, it's like a trick of the like like the an AI contribution. The I don't even know if she would take roles from other actors because who knows what the fuck, who knows who's actually gonna utilize that and what they're utilizing it for. Like, I don't know, maybe it's actually a totally new industry that would create hundreds of thousands of new jobs. No idea, but it's definitely not what it used to be. Like, it's not you're not contributing to to the art that exists. I mean, you're very much creating a different pathway, I think, when you're and you're diving into that world.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're creating slop. What's your perspective on like as somebody who's not in the film industry? What's your perspective when you see stories like that? Because I have, especially being in visual effects, I have a very strong opinion about that situation. And I want to know what yours is from the distance you have.
SPEAKER_05:I think it's it's complex. I mean, do we know? I would like to know actually a little bit more about the creator because if she has a lot of film industry experience, that would that would make me say something. But like I think it's like that fork in the road where I'm gonna I'm gonna go from a lens that I can hold more personally, which is like everybody can have a podcast. And I would not be against that that life because everybody has something to say, everyone has a conversation that needs to be heard, even if it affects five people or 500,000 or 2 million. Like, you know, it's like everybody deserves to to put their thoughts out there and to contribute. And it doesn't necessarily have to be because it's your next business pursuit, but rather it's like an offering that you're giving that someone can learn from or that you just feel better by doing. And so, like, you know, people say, Oh, I want to have a podcast, and then they want to do it just to like become super famous or or you know, make money or profit off of it, or put a bunch of ads on it. I'm just like, okay, you know, like there's like a feeling that you get when someone is doing something because they're wildly enthusiastic and passionate about it, and you're like, I'm on board, like I want you to succeed. Yeah, and there's a feeling that you get when someone is just like creating something because they want to profit off of it. And yeah, and I feel that way. You can feel it, you can feel it, and and it's like, okay, well, what if everyone had their own AI actress? An actor. What if I created one and you created one and everybody created one and they were all up? That's you know, I don't know how easy this is to do, but I would imagine it's kind of pretty easy to do. But maybe the better you are at articulating, the better you are at editing, the better you are at writing, you're probably gonna create a pretty phenomenal actress. And so, like, if we all did it and everybody had some other avenue of income, then I'm kind of like, that's not I'm not opposed to that because that could help a lot of people. And like, I would it would be it would be exactly how I feel about AI, which is very much about productivity, about easy instantness. It's not, it's you know, and it's about self-help. I think AI is so deeply about self-help and self-reflection, and like, you know, giving you a team that you otherwise can't afford, most likely. And so in that world, I I mean that's the only way that I can see it where I'm like, I I can see something happening there that could be really helpful for this kind of fucked world we live in that requires so much goddamn money to exist in. However, in the world that I want to be living in, I just I just want people to be able to perform and and to be able to have way more access to industry and and to be able to create art that is like meaningful and it's not just for profit. Like fuck, I'm so you know, I'm not opposed at all to making profit on something wonderful because like you should be hopefully rewarded for making beautiful things and and doing it with heart and passion. But like it's hard to listen to some people start talking about what they're doing with AI and they immediately are like, this is automated, and this is automated, and everything is print ready or like supply and demand, and like they're just off putting all of the things that make your life worth living as a person, which is like sometimes doing the work and sometimes showing up, and like the fact that like the I think every single human is an actor, like you are an actor, I am an actress because you're just playing we're playing a role, you know, we're playing a fucking role, and and now someone is trying to take that away from themselves, so they don't have to they don't have to play like I it's like what what are you doing? What is the point? Like, what is the point? And it's not their fault. I'm sure we're all feeling this way. Like, what the fuck is the point right now?
SPEAKER_00:That what are you doing that for? When you say what is the point, you bring up the point, which is we need to stop and ask why we're doing anything. So people, there's a lot of assumptions built into people's reasons for building these tools and using these tools, and it's well to increase productivity. Increase productivity to do what? What is the end there? Increase productivity for the sake of increasing productivity, increase productivity to bring down prices because it won't bring down prices because any gains from that productivity increase are gonna be taken by the people at the top. That's just how it is, it's how it always is. It's not gonna benefit anybody. If you can be five times four times more productive, they're gonna give you five times more work. That's just how it's gonna be. The incentives are completely poisoned. And and Tilly Norwood, just to set it up for anybody who doesn't know who Tilly Norwood is and isn't connected in this, but Tilly Norwood is a in very heavy air quotes AI actress that is getting lots of press coverage because this actress created this AI actress and is trying to get her representation and people see it as a possible threat to the industry, and and agencies were excited too, from what I saw.
SPEAKER_05:I saw the agents like, okay, like send her over.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So if it if you would allow me to completely dismantle this once and for all.
SPEAKER_04:Allowed.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I'm a visual effects artist and producer. I do digital graphics and in movies and TV shows, music videos, and stuff. Very simply, Tilly Norwood is nothing. It is nothing, it is a pure grift, and I'm not that's not to say that the person making it isn't excited about it and doesn't think that that that it's a cool possibility. I don't think that you have to be conscious that you're grifting to grift, okay? But it is a short-term in the moment thing. It's not real, it is nothing, and every single project that tries to use Tilly Norwood is going to inevitably become a visual effects project. That's just what's gonna happen. Because here's what's gonna happen you're gonna use her, you're gonna find it's clunky, you're gonna find that her face doesn't look the same, you're gonna try to do a close-up and the pores aren't gonna look right, or it's gonna create a random zit. And then what's gonna happen is you're gonna have to hand that shot off to a visual effects artist, and the visual effects artist is then gonna have to fix the shot. And then you're gonna want a shot that you can't get because no AI has been trained on the type of thing you want to do. It's just not gonna work. So then you're gonna say, okay, well, let's just build Tilly Norwood as a 3D animated character, and then you're gonna hire a team at Framestore or MPC to build, which are huge visual effects companies that are very expensive. Then you're gonna have to build a CG version of Tilly Norwood. And now you're just making avatar. So what's the point? You have not automated anything, you have saved no money, you have just turned what could have been a normal movie that you went and filmed with a normal actress into a big fat VFX project. Like, what was the point of all that? And not to mention that you know, people are like, oh, this is gonna change everything, it's gonna make it so much cheaper. Okay, OpenAI is losing eight billion dollars this year. So exactly how cheap is it if they are subsidizing the cost?
SPEAKER_05:And if what is that what does that mean exactly like they everything like they profited, right? No complete okay.
SPEAKER_00:No. No AI company is profitable. They are losing billions of dollars a year. Billions and billions and billions. They are dumping billions of dollars into this.
SPEAKER_05:Is that why they're implementing advertising? Yes. Like, okay. You're seeing advertising is the name.
SPEAKER_00:What you're seeing is the the like the to quote Corey Doctoro, the inchidification process of a tech company happening at hyperspeed. So like the normal process of it of a tech company becoming insidified is they make a great product, get users hooked. Once the users are hooked, they shift their focus to business users, get the business users in there to take advantage of the normal users, and they start stripping the value from the normal users. Then once the business users are hooked, they start shifting all the value to shareholders, and then they strip all the value out of the product, give it to the shareholders until there's just enough to keep you hooked. And now your product, which was great and affordable, is now terrible and expensive, but you have to use it because you're already hooked. That's every tech company, and that is happening with AI right now. Only it's happening way faster because it's so unprofitable. I actually did a very quick calculation by running like a like an AI model on my local computer, and then I calculated the energy usage of my computer to do the generation, and I won't walk you through the whole calculation, but once I was done, I was like, So to make a movie, assuming you have to generate each shot 10 times to get it right, it's gonna cost and assuming you have to do visual effects, which you will, your movie's still gonna cost$15 million for a 90-minute movie. So what's the point? You didn't save any money. You didn't save any money. So just make a normal movie. These things are just unprofitable until you ignore what is nothing.
SPEAKER_05:Save money, and yet you're spending more, and it's like gotten to the point where, yeah, it doesn't once what is the point again? Like, what is the point?
SPEAKER_00:What are we trying to achieve?
SPEAKER_05:Exactly. And the I feel like this is a crazy thing to say, so I'm gonna try to say it as delicately as possible. But when it comes to some of the videos that I've seen AI do, that I'm like, whoa, that is that is a dream. That is that's just dreaming. I mean, that's how we think and dream when things become another thing and another thing and another thing, and that's how you imagine. And that's you know, that's a whole nother conversation. But like when it comes to shorter clips where you're like caught off guard a little bit, you're like, oh wait, no, that's not real. And you have to like check in, you're like, this isn't actually this is a fake video, and then you see all the indicators that say that this is fake. Those moments where I'm just like, we're not utilizing this for the right reasons at all, because I feel like when it comes, let's say AI is for storytelling in some regard, it would be for the stories that you can't that you don't want for someone to have to act out for the story that you don't want to have to pay someone to write that is maybe for a bigger, better reason that's not for profiting, like things to change humanity. Like, like when I think about all the the shootings that happen at schools specifically, and like children being shot to death. That's not something that I would ever want to be like, you should make a movie off this and then terrorize child actors to play these parts. Like, I don't want to see that, and I definitely don't want and I wouldn't want to pay a bunch of animators for a four-year stretch of time to do some sort of animated feature on what this looks like. And it's like, well, why would you ever want to see that? And I'm like, I would not want to see it because I can imagine it. But there's however ever there's so many other Americans who will sh turn the fucking what is the what is the phrase? They will close their eyes to the idea that children are being murdered because they don't want to think about it and they can't see it because they're not visual creatures, because they're not imaginative, and so they're just like, well, someone will figure that out. And yet, you know, that's not something that we would even want to show. Like this, there are videos out there that exist, obviously, that's that show kind of what's happened on the inside to some regard. But I feel like what we were talking about earlier, which is that movies have the ability to make you feel and to have empathy and compassion for something that you would never experience. Like, you know, if somebody did an AI film that kind of showed that in a way that would move people to create phenomenal change, you know, or like at the very least, create a better school system that promotes healthy children so they can grow up and not want to shoot up where they came from, but you know, make their community better. Like, that's that's like that would be like a wonderful use for a platform that right now we're like, well, just make money with it. And I'm like, why don't you try fucking saving a life with it? Like, that would be cool. Yeah, that would be really cool. I would, I mean, you can you can be eight billion in debt or whatever for changing what feels like decades worth of of non-change, I guess.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, it's there's uh you know, there's people in the film industry. This is like an old phrase, like we make money to make movies, we don't make movies to make money. Like this, it's for it's for the love of the game, okay? Uh, we do it because we love this, and you love the surprises that come out of not having control and a performer surprising you. You don't get that same thing. It's not the same kind of surprise when you get an AI generation that's wrong. It's just frustrating and weird. But when you're on set and an actor does a thing that you didn't expect that you never visualized, and it opens your mind to a whole new pathway for the movie or the scene or whatever or the character, that's like inspiring and exciting. And that happens with writing too, you know, like the AI is doing so much writing. It's a glorified Thesaurus in Google search for me now because Google search is so terrible. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, I guess I gotta use this to search for things, or I gotta use this to find words. I still use thesaurus.com because I'm old school, but you know, we just I just wrote a a series pitch with uh my writing partner, and it was so hard. It took us like a year, and there is no part of that yeah, and there's no part of that process that that would have been made easier, less painful, or better by using AI tools, other than just to get quick information, like a glorified search.
SPEAKER_05:I um my my coach, my my life coach, when we talk about um scaffolding. And you know, like in web design, you can say wireframing and storyboard, you can like storyboarding, I think. It's actually two conversations. I'm gonna try and I'm gonna try and navigate the direction that I want to go. But like scaffolding is a deeply needed, like that is a place where you could definitely use a team and use uh uh feedback or use a big space for visualizing like what you're trying to do, or like um an outline for a story or like plot, like like like feedback in that case, I feel like AI is maybe pretty useful. And I've I've used it for those things quite a lot. And right away, as a very uh judgmental and pretty harsh critic, I think like right away you can kind of be like, Well, these all suck, but let's start here. Like, there's like there's a way to just be like filter out the noise, and it just helps you, you know what I mean? It's not like it but I never look at it like AI is gonna solve my problem. Like, it's like, no, it's just helping, it's just it's a tool to like help you get through your own noise. Yeah, and yet there's plenty of fucking things that I've run through that it really did not do a good job with. You know, I was talking to my my editor the uh the other day about an article I'd written, and he was like, There was a lot of M-dashes in this, and it's kind of like I don't know if you know this, but like that's a huge ChatGPT thing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And I was like, I was like, yeah, I know. Like you're allowed to take the publishing-wise, you're like take your grammar and run it through Chat GPT and correct for errors. And so, in a lot of ways, definitely is really good for AP style, but also like I don't write an AP style, it's really hard, it's a hard rewrite and rewiring of my brain to like kind of fit this mold. And so, like when I ran it through to be like, look for these things, I don't actually know what I'm saying. I'm just like, this is what the guide says, like, can you help me, Chat GPT? And it spits out like it gets rid of all the commas and does M-dashes because it's kind of like the comma placement. I don't know if you know, in AP style is you don't want it before an end, and then after that, I'm like my art brain was just like, they all are terrible. And so it was at this moment that I'm like, I'm using this, I'm using something that I was guided to use, and it has like still created more fucking work.
SPEAKER_03:Yep.
SPEAKER_05:And yet there are plenty of things that I would continue and will continue to use, like Chat GPT for, as far as daily thoughts and like, and and you know, getting through the noise and finding clarity. And I also like that it doesn't know the fucking answer. Like that, how could it possibly? It's a reflection of all of us. And I like having those moments where I'm like, that's not that's not right, dude. You didn't get that right, and it makes me feel like I'm paying attention, like I'm showing up. I'm not thinking there's this all-knowing device that's gonna set me straight. Like, that's my responsibility.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you're the one who knows, it doesn't know. It like I I really think people need to we we really need to call it what it is. It is it is a text generation tool. That's it. It's a it is predictive text on your iPhone on steroids. That's all it is, and I'm not diminishing its capabilities, that's what it is. Text in, text out. That's it. It's good at making associations, but it doesn't know. And it doesn't know because you can say, Hey, tell me about this, and it'll say, Here it is, here's the answer, and then you say, No, that's wrong. It's actually this, and it goes, You're absolutely right, it is this. And it's like, no, it's not. I just made that up too. It's actually this. Yeah, oh, you're right. I I didn't realize that. It's like, come on, what is this thing? It is a reflection of you. It is it's text in, text out, and and it doesn't actually know. You're just being sold a lie.
SPEAKER_05:Algorithm on quite a bit of crack, too. Yeah. Because I mean, it's like it's like what you want to it's there to support you in a way that it will the more you interact, the more it will be guided to give you the feedback that you want.
SPEAKER_00:So and I think I think it also highlights the limitations of language. I think that's a big thing we all need to take away from this, is that language is yeah, language is only so capable of capturing existence. And that's why I like I mean, that's why films are great, because it's visual and it's audio. You can feel things from watching them, you can feel things from hearing them. Any one of those things by itself isn't quite as powerful. But when you watch a film, people say things, you hear things, you see things, maybe a look triggers something in you. I don't remember what I was watching the other day, but the character made a look, and me noticing that look totally changed the tone of the scene for me. Just the way that they made an expression. I'm like, oh, they don't actually feel that way. They feel a totally different way, you know? And so there's a whole other level of communication that's happening. But I think because words are being pushed at us so constantly, we're looking at words, we're sending texts, we're reading articles, that we tend to start to think that language is reality and language is not reality. Language is uh a collection of symbols that we use to point at things in the world.
SPEAKER_05:It's it's like I think it touches the topic of logic for me, where like logic is the thing that will make sense of the chaos. Logic is the thing that we're like again and again will keep us safe and make you feel secure in the sense that you know what things mean, whether or not you ascribe that meaning or it was taught to you. And like it will save your life logic, but also it will keep you so confined and it will start like wrecking you if you don't push against that what it is that you think that you know. I think, and like when it comes to empathy or emotional intelligence, like a lot of people, I think, don't trust their emotional intelligence to any regard because they have such a hard time defining why they feel the way that they do about something. And they're like, Well, I feel like she didn't like that, but they couldn't in any way tell you why they thought that she didn't like that, and so they will, you know, abandon that part of themselves by not wanting to look foolish, or they will just over they will over they will just lean on what they can put words to, you know. And I feel like when it comes to looking at film and looking at people making faces and the things that it evokes inside of you because you can read, you know, I think you're you're pretty um emotionally intelligent and pretty empathic. Not everybody, but do you do you do you know uh in American Psycho when they had uh Willem Dafoe do the interrogation scene in the first scene where he's just getting to know Christian Bale's character, like he comes to his office.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Patrick Bale.
SPEAKER_05:And yeah, Patrick, thank you, thank you. And and the scene as the viewer, what's happening is you are watching Willem Defoe's uh detective character. And you feel uneasy, and you're like, I feel uneasy with these questions because he's basically asking uh Christian Bale, like at first, he maybe he's a friend, second, maybe he thinks that he You know, you're like, no, he definitely suspects this guy. And then on the like another feeling you'll have is that maybe he actually I don't remember what the third one was, but basically the director had him do they had them do the scene like three different times.
SPEAKER_02:That's cool.
SPEAKER_05:From three different perspectives. And so Willem Dafoe on the first take was like, You got you think this guy's fucking guilty as shit, and you're gonna treat him that way. And but it's all the same lines. And yet he gets to be an actor and say, This is, you know, like this is how I would treat that line if I thought this guy was guilty as fuck. And the next one was just like, Oh, I think the next one was like, I don't want to be here, they're making me here, type thing. And so it's like not, you know, he just laid back and doesn't care. And the third one is kind of like he's super curious, and it's so interesting when you combine curious with like laid back, because immediately you're just like, like, do I try like as a viewer, I just remember being like, I do not know what's and I could not put any words to that. But when I when I heard that behind the scenes, it made so much more sense. I was like, wow, that's fucking brilliant.
SPEAKER_00:That's so cool. And then they cut between them, and then you're like, what do I feel in this scene?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and the power of editing and storytelling and like knowing what you want your audience to feel from one look or one phrase or yeah, kind of insane.
SPEAKER_00:People keep using the term democratize to refer to what's happening, it's democratizing creativity or democratizing filmmaking. I'm like, it's not really, it's it's commodifying it. Well, they think democratize, they mean, oh, now it's available to anybody. And I'm like, it already was like maybe you can't get a distributor to put your movie in a theater, maybe because you don't have the right connections, or maybe your movie's just not very good. But these tools are not democratizing that, they're just commodifying it. It's one company taking ownership of the entire process, making you feel like you have ownership because you get to type in a thing and it gives you a thing. But it's really just commodifying it. It's just the capitalist system building a new thing to feed off of human beings.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, it's like we're yeah, it's something that's available to you that's now being sold to you, which is crazy. Like you could already make a film before and you could do it in a lot of different ways. Sure. Now it's like, well, you can't do it that way because the industry won't let you. And it's like, no, it it's it's just like any industry, I imagine, where you have to, in fact, if you're not given the gateway or you don't have the connection, you gotta start your own business, you gotta start your own thing, you start from scratch, which is the joy of life.
SPEAKER_00:We're chasing our tails. It's like, you know, we are in a system in which the the incentives have been poisoned, and where this infinite growth economy requires input, input, input, input. It needs to eat, it needs to eat creativity, it needs to eat uh thought, it needs to eat products, it needs to eat minerals, it needs to eat the environment, it needs to eat the human body. Like, you know, uh, people talk about OnlyFans and the growth of OnlyFans, and I'm like, I yeah, I think that people should be able to do whatever they want. I think that it's empowering to use your body in whatever way you want that isn't hurting you or other people. Uh, but I I see the growth of it, the the explosive growth as and also the explosive growth of influencing in general as this system needing food, and now the only thing that's left because it's eaten everything else is the actual human body. It's the last thing for it to eat before it just destroys everything. And we need to stop for a second and be like, hey, maybe we should find a system that doesn't require this much food because it's eating everything. It's eating our food, even like it's eating our food and our money and our houses and our everything. And now, and now, like, what you know, the career, everybody's like, what should you do? You know, when people are like, what should I do? I'm like, I don't know, start a YouTube channel, I guess, because the only thing you have left is like yourself to sell.
SPEAKER_05:Well, if you've made it this far, I want to thank you for for listening and really send quite a shout out of deep soul deep gratitude to the people who have reached out to me saying that they have listened to the podcast and have given me um words of encouragement and excitement and just all the things that you know you don't you don't need, but you sure do love receiving because it just is like sunlight, you know, more warm sunlight. So I I do know that a big part of this podcast for me is to be able to really show the behind the scenes part of creating anything, especially from nothing. And and so there is a lot of metadith to the layers of of a podcast, especially if you're doing the editing or or there are people that you know that you're talking to, or you're just talking to yourself about your own creative projects, and then it's and it's all deeply interconnected, and to be able to to talk about it into the void and to have someone answer back is really cool. And I believe sincerely that if there's a part of you that wants to begin something, if it's a podcast, it's starting a website, it's it's uh dancing, it's playing an instrument, it's uh picking up the camera that you said that you were gonna learn how to use. If it's building something with your hands, just begin. I swear to you. You just keep showing up. And it's a profound experience, and it will change your life.