This is a Metaphor
There are so many ways to be a person. This Is A Metaphor is what happens when a curious creative can’t stop connecting dots. Life hands you a breakup, a bird call, a bagel? Boom. That’s a metaphor. This show isn’t therapy, and it isn’t theater, but it is art. It’s an existential treasure hunt—with jokes. Hosted by Mo Houston, a sharp-witted, soul-deep storyteller who views life through many lenses. She who knows the world makes sense… if you squint really hard. She’s lived out of suitcases and studios, built brands and burned out, laughed onstage and cried in voice notes. This podcast is kind of a memoir, a mirror, and definitely a metaphor.
This is a Metaphor
Ep 22: She Said What? w/Madeline Sargent
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Recording a podcast is one of the fastest ways to meet yourself, especially when the Wi‑Fi lags, Riverside refuses to cooperate, and you still decide to hit record. Mo sits down with Madeline Sargent, creator of the She Says It Podcast, to talk about the unglamorous truth of starting a podcast: the tech hiccups, the nerves, the editing spiral, and the pressure to market something that still feels tender. What surprised them most is how quickly all of that friction turns into momentum once they kept showing up.
They get into the craft and the business in a very real way. Madeline shares how she thinks about podcast editing, solo episodes that feel like journal entries, and the confidence boost that comes from finally accepting your voice as it is. They also unpack the push-pull between creativity and podcast SEO: titles, episode length, discoverability, and how to make “content” without letting the word drain the art out of it. Threads (the anti X platform) comes up as a rare bright spot for community building, guest booking, and finding talented indie shows that deserve more attention.
The conversation widens into self-compassion and discipline: journaling prompts for clarity, what to do when writer’s block hits, and why half marathon training mirrors the long game of creative work. We talk visibility fears, handling low-validation weeks, and the quiet power of choosing kindness as a standard in your work and relationships.
If you’re building a show, a brand, or a braver version of yourself, listen through and then share this with a friend who needs the push. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: What part of podcasting feels hardest right now?
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“Don’t get Deterred, get Inspired”
eta Perspective On Podcasting
SPEAKER_03The meta part of this is a metaphor is about the many layers of an experience. It's about perspective. And so you could see something from the emotional side of it, from the intellectual side. You can see something from the spiritual side, as I often enjoy seeing it from. And in today's case, in this week's episode case, the perspective that we are being meta about is that of the industry and of the pursuit of podcasting. Today I'm talking with Madeline Sargent, and she has a podcast that's called She Says It. And I came across her and she came across me on Threads. And if you haven't been on Threads, you know, I recommend that you do it. I recommend it's I know that it's it's owned by Meta, but it is a platform in which at the moment just seems so genuinely eager and happy to connect, to support, to expand, to clarify. And it's very curious. I just enjoy it and I'm grateful for it. And I I met Madeline there, and I had been doing my podcast for a couple of months when she was launching hers in December, I believe, the end of 2025, in the beginning of 26. And I thought it would be a wonderful conversation for someone to listen to, to know that these things have hangups. Like even in this episode today, I tried not to overly edit it because I wanted you to see and to hear and to know that you know, when you haven't met somebody and you're recording virtually, there are delay, there is lag, there are hangups. Bluetooth and Wi-Fi are one of the largest lies I think we've been told as far as accuracy and and seamless sinking. Everything's a struggle. And even talking to someone as I think kind and patient as as Madeline has proved to be, is you know, you still have you still have hurdles and quarrels with pursuing something that is very technological as far as recording and editing, and then there's just the marketing aspect, there's the consistency aspect, there's the content aspect, and we got into into a lot of that. And it's a a sweet conversation, a gentle one, and I hope that you enjoy it, and I know that I did. I don't know. Time and fate just aligns better. But it's funny, I think, that technical difficulties are occurring because we want to talk so much, I think, about starting podcasts and the hurdles that you you know have to get over, I think, when you're when you're going about it. And so this is a first so far, which is exciting because it would be super deterring if it happened every time.
SPEAKER_00It would be like, yes, what is going on? There's always something with podcasting I've learned. What are some hiccups that have come up for you? To be honest, my first episode, I was so nervous. And the woman that was coming on, her name is KJ. She's a publicist, she's like absolutely incredible. And I just felt like this just like little girl who had no idea what she was doing. And I was a little intimidated, to be honest. And my Zoom ended up not being able to record. So I had to ask her to use her Zoom, which was fine. It all worked out, but definitely a first, you know, time host error. And but it all worked out. So that was the first hurdle, I think.
SPEAKER_03Was that her first podcast also? Or was is she like seasoned?
SPEAKER_00She's so seasoned and she was so impressive. And I was just like, oh, but it all worked out, and she made me feel so comfortable. And I think it's crazy. And I don't know if you feel like this too, but the more you do this, the more comfortable you get. And I'm like, wow, I've really grown in, you know, a couple months of recording. So it's very interesting.
SPEAKER_03I yeah, I I agreed. There's that term um that you're a limitless being. And I think like that's one of those sayings along the way that I was like, get it, you know. But the last really, I think so much of like December and January that has been like popping into my mind. And it's like you, you really are, you can just you expand into every moment that you keep showing up for. There's you know, if there's a reason that you're doing it and you know why you're doing it, or you know, you're compelled to do it even if you don't know what the reason is, like you're gonna get so much better. And I I completely agree with that. When you, especially when you get to listen, do you when you record, do you edit your audio or do you I edit it?
diting Choices And Solo Episodes
SPEAKER_00I listen to it a couple of times before I like decide on what the final cut will be. But I have noticed that now I'm just kind of letting the conversation flow how it's supposed to be, and I will make a little bit less edits just because I want, you know, the guests to be have their voice just really authentic and stuff. But I will admit I've started to do solo episodes, and that is an entirely new process for sure. Does it feel intimate? Yes, it does. And I've been doing like these like journal-esque episodes um for like the audience to just really like have a cozy Sunday sit down and like reflect and and have that experience. And so just producing that and creating it is it feels so intimate because it's like, ooh, I hope they're enjoying this on Sunday. You know what I mean? I do I know, I I definitely, I definitely know what you mean.
SPEAKER_03I think that the just the process of being able to record yourself, especially when it is just you, so far for me is like wildly just grounding. I mean, it's it's and especially if because what I so far as far as interviews, I don't, you know, I don't put a headset on. Um but when you're doing your own, like when you get that feedback loop of your own voice, there's something very yes, like it just feels good. Especially, I think the more that you get comfortable with your voice, you like the sound of it. Like it, it's like guiding you back into the moment. And yeah, I think it makes everything that you're saying feel better because if you, you know, if you it's like when you get dressed, if you like the way that you look, I think your whole day is better. And if you're talking on a podcast and you like the way that your voice sounds, your whole day is gonna be way better.
SPEAKER_00I think like it was so interesting to me starting out with podcasting because I've never been someone who has loved the sound of my own voice. And honestly, I've kind of tried to avoid hearing it. And then I've had like family members, which I think is really sweet, just be like, I love the sound of your voice. And I'm like, really? Okay. So I feel like that has given me a little bit more confidence in just like accepting myself as I am, which I feel like is a little bit deep and philosophical, but I think there's some sort of like self-confidence that comes from podcasting.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I completely agree. I think going back to kind of what you said earlier, too, every time you every time you show up to do the thing that you like said you were gonna do, I think you get a little more just like confident, confident in your your ability. And like if you continue with any practice, you feel so much better. And I guess, yeah, in in a couple months' time of doing a podcast, you get to feel proud, like probably just like pretty proud. Um because even the process gets better, I think. Like when you, you know, you sit down, you know, maybe like when something feels fluid or something is in a flow state versus when. I mean, have you come across that in in recording some of your solo episodes where it's not the right time? Like you're just like what like making yourself dance and you don't want to dance.
SPEAKER_00Yes, 100%. Or the energy isn't there. And I'll find myself trying, like recording for a couple of minutes, and I'm just like, no, today is not the day, and that's okay. And I think sitting down to write too, because I I kind of script these out and make sure that, you know, it feels authentic to me and what I want to help the audience with at the end of the day. Um, but yeah, definitely there's been times where I've been like, ooh, I need to record this today, but it's not gonna happen today. And that's that's okay, I think.
SPEAKER_03Have you always had a disposition of kindness towards yourself, or is that something you've kind of cultivated?
onfidence Comes From Showing Up
SPEAKER_00That is a great question. I think that there's been times when I have been so hard on myself. And I think she says it was started with the thought of how can I help myself and other women be kinder to ourselves and be more confident and, you know, support each other on that process. But yeah, I think becoming more kind to myself is something that I've cultivated.
SPEAKER_03I really, I like really admire, I think, when people can talk about moments of like expectation, you know, when you want to be, when you want to be doing something or you have, you know, set time in your day to sit and do this thing and it's not quite coming out. And to be able to just, yeah, to be kind and to be a little more forgiving for for those moments because like especially if it's just you that's cracking the whip or commanding the ship, like there's so many other factors I think going on in in your brain. Like if it was, you know, if you were part of like a production crew or something, your maybe one real responsibility in that moment is to show up and and to talk. But like when you're the master and the commander, you I think you have to like also be the manager and you have to be like, okay, it's it's okay that like right now is not the time. Like you're fine, you're fine. Everybody loves you. We love ourselves. Like it's gonna you're gonna come back later when you, you know, went for a run or punched the punching bag, or you know, got some food, whatever it is that you need to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I was I was having a conversation with my friend um about like podcasting, and like I've been listening to Amy Polar's podcast, Good Hang, and I just think she's so talented and just really good at, you know, being a natural, authentic, funny host, and is definitely someone I admire. I think we can be a little hard on ourselves. Like she has a whole team and and people helping her, and you know, it's just me and it's you know, we're doing our best.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I love that you brought up Amy Polar because, you know, at the um not the Golden Globes, the uh what is the award show? Not the Emmys. Is it the Emmys? Is it the Golden Globes? She the because they created, did you hear this? They created a new like podcast category this year, and she like obviously won it. And I remember thinking, like, how self-serving is this category, you know, like to to you like it's a it's a award show for for cinema and for like visual storytelling, and then to like create a and I think it's like great to create a a category for for podcasting, but like, and then to just place it in the hands of someone who is brilliant and so heartwarming and like has a beautiful podcast. Like I enjoy it too, but also there's a side of me that's just like okay, yeah, if I was gonna create an award show, I would totally nominate, you know, all of my own versus like the giant plethora of the podcasting world that could totally use that stage. Which is kind of crazy to me.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I don't know how you feel about this, but like on threads and and whatnot, it's been incredible to see all of the different shows that I had no idea existed. And all of these hosts are so talented and the content they're creating is amazing. Like I saw um a podcast that was about, you know, different hiking trips that women go on. And I'm just like, how cool is that? And how creative to think about something like that. So I love what you're saying. I think there's so many other, you know, podcast shows that that could be recognized.
isibility Fears And Needing Validation
SPEAKER_03You I I think that's a a big part of our what I've noticed in your brand is your ability. And I and I, you know, I think this is a massive part of your podcast, which is the support of women and and of females. And do you like where does that where's where does that come from? Like I know you said you wanted to be able to help yourself, and I think that that is beautiful, but it's so it's so intense to me, I think, to be able to extend that and say, like, this is this is to really lift up other people. Like even the compliment you just gave me, that's incredibly that's just very genuine and sincere. Like, has it always been that way for you? That sincerity.
SPEAKER_00You know, I think sometimes it's hard for me to acknowledge that about myself. But yeah, I think that's always been a strength. And I was really lucky to have such an incredible mom who has always like modeled that for me and like supporting other women. And I think I've had a lot of really great female friends growing up. I'm an only child, so they were like sisters to me. I've always loved to support other women and what they're doing.
SPEAKER_03Was there any fear for you in the months and the weeks leading up to promoting and/or even like launching the podcast? Was there something? Yeah, are you comfortable saying like what that defined fear was?
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh, yes. It was, it was just, I found like this very interesting contradiction between the work I want to do as she says it and wanting to be visible myself and being like so terrified of that. I remember, gosh, it was probably like late 2024. I completely scrubbed, not completely, but I scrubbed a lot of my like Instagram followers because I just didn't, I wanted it to be more private in my life. And so coming back to this, she says it and and creating this brand where it is about, you know, kind of making myself front and center at first was terrifying. I think the day that I was about to, you know, go and make the brand in live, I I just had this tremendous like, ooh, should I do it? Should I not? Like, will people support this? Will people think this is cheesy? Like, what will be the vibe of this? And I found that those fears were unfounded and that I've had a lot of people reach out and be like, this is really cool what you're doing, keep doing it. So that's been really nice to see.
SPEAKER_03When what's what's your relationship with not receiving um validation, like moments where you're not getting the, you know, I'm so glad that you're doing this, or that was really wonderful, or you know, I love listening to the sound of your voice. Is there, is there something that you lean on internally that gets you to where you're going?
SPEAKER_00I've been trying to keep telling myself during weeks where it maybe feels like the momentum isn't going my way, or you know, I'm just not getting that validation that it's okay. And like I said, I am an only child, so I think I've had to really embrace not having like as many people around all the time, like as a child and stuff. And so I think I have a strong sense of self in that way.
hreads Community And Being Imperfect
SPEAKER_03I like the the metaphor of being an only child. I I was a middle child for a long time. So I mean, for like a long time, I was like the middle child, and then my parents had my sister, and so there's a big age gap between us. She's like 11 years younger than I am. And wow, I yeah, and it's I mean, and it's like you know, it's not a a giant deal, but like suddenly you're there's like the second oldest, and I think that changes you have kind of two different childhoods in in in that regard. But I always enjoy the process of trying to guess what somebody else's what their their childhood situation was as far as you know, was their are you the youngest or like definitely oldest child vibes? Like how going back to threads, what are some of the relationships that you feel like you've like cultivated on that platform so far?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's been incredible. Um, I think most of the guests that I've had on the podcast have been relationships that have been cultivated through threads. Yesterday I interviewed um this woman who is from Estonia and now she lives in Mexico. And her and I were talking about, you know, being a little bit more of an introvert or being quieter and how that shows up online and how even having that conversation. It was her first podcast conversation, and she was so nervous. And I thought back to myself, who yesterday was more comfortable, but you know, a month and a half, two months ago, I was in that same position. And it was just a really nice moment for us to be able to acknowledge that it's okay to be nervous and it's okay to say the wrong thing. And I think having those types of conversations in the last month through through threads have been like, I would say, the major theme of what I've talked to people about. And it's okay to be imperfect. And and so I, yeah, threads has been amazing because I feel like I've really been able to have these genuine conversations that I don't even know if I had those with, you know, people in high school or or, you know, even younger than that, we just didn't talk about that. But it's crazy how people show up in such a genuine way on threads. And I really I love it.
SPEAKER_03They really do show up in such a genuine way. I I completely agree with that. And I I love the idea that like like our conversation, for instance, you know, in the beginning we have like technical hangups, and I think it has a way of kind of like pulling up the not the gate, what's the word, the curtain, you know, where like you get to see the man behind the curtain and you're just like, all right, we're just trying to figure this out. Everyone is just trying to figure this out. It's very grounding, I think, rather than you know, just being on a racehorse and like getting out the gate and like getting right into feeling like you know somebody that you've never met. And I think it's it's a very like humanizing thing to like be nervous and to allow somebody to like be nervous. And it's like so much better to be nervous and to acknowledge it, I think, because the energy that it takes to pretend that you aren't nervous is like totally a distracting, you know, that's taking even more from you. I think as someone who has dealt with like nervousness on on stage or like before a performance, you know, like that will just that will just take you from the moment. So it's really, it's quite powerful. That you're able to let someone have their moment and then and then you got through it? Like, how long have your conversations been so far for your podcast?
SPEAKER_00Um, they've been usually between like 30 and 40 minutes.
SPEAKER_03Is that something that you like is that is that a time frame that you like to to stick into, or do you read it as the conversation goes where you like you said earlier, you kind of want it to be a little more organic and you want it to flow?
EO Versus Creativity In Podcast Titles
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's something I've been experimenting with. I think that And this is an interesting little tidbit. Creatively, I love to be really like authentic and or organic. And I was, I had these podcast titles that like created to create and um say it out loud, even if your voice shakes. And I recently talked with a podcast producer who is very lovely and helpful, and she was like suggesting SEO options for me and whatnot. And that process of fighting between my head and my heart, because I want people to discover the podcast, but I also love like that editorial feel of things and being creative and being authentic in my creativity has been a struggle for me. And just kind of hearing her recommendations about episode length and stuff, because I love, you know, being able to talk freely with people and all of that. And so I struggle with what content is going to perform best, should it be shorter, should it be longer? But I think at the end of the day, it needs to be that um, you know, that flow state and just an authentic conversation. It's it's a struggle that I that I deal with currently. I think as someone who is doing all of this podcasting work alone. And I I'd love to hear your thoughts too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think that I've some of the some of the conversations I've had are very long. Like they're like two hours. Some of them have gone for like three hours. And and I love it. Um, I think that happens naturally when you're really talking to someone that you really know very well. And so I've been, you know, like I don't I don't know a whole lot about you, but I I do know the things that I think that we can I've been eager to talk about can be a really wonderful conversation. And so there's I think I feel the same where there's this moment of wanting to be patient with whatever format wants to kind of create itself and not have a time constraint. But like also my time is super valuable when it comes to editing. And so suddenly you have like a three-hour podcast that I'm just like, oh no. I mean, like it's a really long. That's like, you know, potentially four or five hours of editing. Like, because you're not, you know, you're not listening to it for three hours. You're you're listening to it in segments and you're trying to fix moments of not great discourse or weird noises or whatever it is. And and so I've been kind of watching myself and my time, I think, with that process. And just being, yeah, like kind of kind in in the sense of if it feels I would rather go shorter than have it like be too long and kind of lose the weight of it. And sometimes I think I do that. Like, I think, and that comes up in writing a lot for me, where you'll get so in love with the words and and like how you write that you're kind of like lost the point of it, you know? And like it's like the kill your darlings approach where you're like, Where? This whole paragraph needs to get out of here. Like, I know. Like, you know, maybe I was ripping with someone and they were saying something funny, and I felt funny, but I'm like, this didn't actually do, you know, it didn't add anything to this, this conversation. So I'll I'll like take that out. But it does feel powerful, I think, in the moments, and maybe you feel this where you do hear something and you're just like, cut it, and there's no, there's no, there's no pause. Like you just know, you're like, no, it's out of there, and like you're on to the next thing. Like it feels very empowering. Where you're like, I'm not gonna contemplate it. Like, if I wanted to cut it, I'm not gonna second guess it. Like, just get it, get it out of there and get on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_00I think that like the the topic of like what to cut and what not to cut is so interesting because I'm really trying to let these women in these podcast conversations finish their thought and tell their story. And I don't want to edit them because I think what they have to say is so important. And so I had this discussion. I have a couple of my friends who will listen to the episodes before I publish them, which is so kind of them and they're the best. But it's funny because different people will give me different feedback. Like they'll be like, oh, this way that she went is really interesting. I love this. And then someone else will be kind of like, oh, I would have rather had you talk about that. So that the assessment of that, I think, is that everybody likes to listen to different things, and we can't try to um make everybody happy. At the end of the day, I want the content to just be as authentic as possible.
SPEAKER_03How do you feel about the word content? Is it is it a love-hate relationship, or are you just like, no, it's content?
SPEAKER_01I'm good with there's something there's an artist in me that's just like, ugh, this word, but like it's it's real.
SPEAKER_03It's a real thing. And I don't like calling it content, but also it is like hurting myself to not call it content.
SPEAKER_00No, I feel you. My career experience has been in copywriting and like magazine writing and that kind of thing. And so I think that there is an art and a science to those um to those practices. So the content thing to me is interesting because it is content, but I don't love it either. I think that writing a really, I was talking to this girl who's writing a novel, and like that is amazing. That is an art and that is hard work. And I think on the internet these days, you know, all the content creators, I'm not discounting what they do, but I think sometimes with podcasting or with writing, it is such like deep, thoughtful, like emotional work at times that like you have to like dig into your feelings and stuff. And again, I don't want to discount content creators, but it is a different, it's definitely a different style and a different thing.
opywriting Skills And Journal Prompts
SPEAKER_03I don't know that I knew that you had a background in copywriting. I also have a background in copywriting and some magazine writing. And it's I think that really that kind of flows into one of the notes that you made in your email before uh just the other day, but you were talking about like the power of like journal prompts. Am I quoting you right? Like journal prompting? Yeah. Yeah. Does that have like a big a big part of your like morning right now or like your evening? Or when do you do this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I wouldn't say that I do it every day. Um, I try to do it once a week. And I try to just really make sure that I'm kind of researching the prompts that I want to talk to, talk about based on mood. And my goal with she says it is to help women with their voice and what they really want to say, like underneath it all. So I think that I will experiment with prompts to make sure that I'm kind of doing the same thing. But yeah, I love journaling. I've always been a big journaler. I remember in fifth grade, I had this journal and all these stickers on the journal. And I would be journaling like during class all the time. And I recently like went back and looked at that. And it's so funny how you kind of notice that wow, I haven't changed much. I'm still kind of talking about the same things or the same themes, and it's just really funny.
SPEAKER_03I I was doing organizing this week and I had a similar experience. It wasn't as far back as like high school, but it was, it was like five years ago. I think it was like, I guess maybe six years ago, it was like 2020. Oh time. But I was reading some journal, some journaling that I was doing like every day, like at the coffee shop and whatnot. And I was like, okay, some of these have changed. Growth, but like some of them are like, oh no, I could have this literally could have been me like two days ago. This is I am the same. I am nurturing the sameness inside of me. When it comes to copywriting, because one of one of the things that I think is very important to me in talking about how people kind of found the calling that they're they're going after at this moment, and when that feels right, is like learning how they got there. And especially I think when it comes to any creative endeavor that requires you to learn a lot of stuff yourself, and there's no path there, you just have to make the path. Like it's really interesting the things that you acquired along the way. Like, for example, before I was in before copywriting, there was an internship that I'd had that was all like interface design, and then I was doing all of the manual writing. And so it was like the exact opposite of creative freedom and what you're writing. You had to say like the same thing again and again, and you couldn't say press or start, you had to say start or press. Like they're like just little things where you had to really be and you couldn't elaborate, you just had to say the best way there. Like word count was everything. And it just was such a better writer. Like it made me better writer and it made me a better communicator. And it also, you know, made me pretty good at being able to finish something, even though on the inside I was freaking the fuck out. So do what are what are some of the things that like stacked, or maybe copywriting is one of those things that has stacked itself to be so helpful now.
riter’s Block Breaks And Running
SPEAKER_00Yes, I would say absolutely. A lot of, you know, word count writing and a lot of you know, writing about things that maybe don't excite you too much. I've done a lot of like financial writing, insurance writing. I think that it's helpful to be able to understand that you can say things in a more concise way. And I think that's what copywriting has helped me with. I would say that along the way, I've always kind of gravitated towards the more creative roles, but I think that the more technical roles, like you were saying, have taught me a lot. And I think it just makes you be able to sit down and really write about anything in a way, and maybe not perfectly the first time, but yeah, it's it's been a journey of 10 years of of writing about different things. And I think each job has some I've loved, some I haven't. And uh I just think that anyone who does write, I have noticed that it has helped me with this podcast process and being able to come up with content, which I know that that word is maybe not our favorite, but it has helped me, I think, to be able to come up with ideas more on the fly than without all of these years of without, you know, doing it for so long.
SPEAKER_03Do you have as far as like because I think writer's block is one of the most common blocks that any creative can really like identify? I think other types of blocks are harder outside of I don't want to say industry, but outside of like the practice, not everybody would be able to like say exactly what the block is. But like with writing, you're just like, yeah, the words aren't coming out. And so do you is that something that you find is a good practice? Like, do you have a practice for when the words aren't coming out in the way that you want them to? Is it you know, some people would just kind of blow past it and wait till something magical comes out, or do you have your own process?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I believe that it's really hard to force things creatively. So I will I'm training for a half marathon right now, which is very hard in its own way. Um, but I try to go on a run or you know, just take a take a breath, call a friend, do something else. Obviously, you know, I'm doing she says it, but I also have a full-time job. So a lot of those tasks aren't necessarily creative. Um, so I'll try to get, you know, some of the more administrative stuff done and then just come back to it. I don't have like a really structured process to get rid of the writer's block, but I think it's just time away sometimes helps the most for me. I I love that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I think that space is something deeply undervalued by people, like just creating space in your endeavors. And like running, I mean, that's amazing to do a marathon. And I think that that has just so many little elements to it that are so helpful. Anything, I think, when it comes to self-discipline of like the physical form, it's like so helpful in every other facet of your life, especially when there's kind of like a quota that you have to meet, like maybe you're running once a day or like twice a day, or you know, increments of miles that you're kind of trying to stack upon so you can get to that end goal. Like I think it's so helpful for people to have these experiences because it really helps you with other things that don't have that type of structure to them, at least not like physically and/or like visually. Because it's nice to look at a calendar and be like, okay, this is what I'm doing, this marathon, and to know you have this much time. But like some things don't have that, and it can be really scary and overwhelming and uncertain. And so it's nice to see the part of you that comes out when you don't need to worry about that type of uncertainty, you know. Like you've so much freedom, I think, to just totally commit to what you're doing. Do you struggle with uncertainty and in other aspects?
areer Uncertainty And Learning Sales
SPEAKER_00100%. I would say that I am a little bit more type B in certain aspects, but I have always been someone who has had a plan with like career stuff or those goals and uncertainty, like it makes me itchy. It makes me just really uncomfortable. And I'm kind of going through a period of transition right now with like what I want to do for my nine to five job. And I've been looking at jobs, and I just got an um an offer to do insurance sales. That is one of those jobs that does not like light up my soul whatsoever. But I know that like, you know, we all have to pay the bills, and that is an important part of life. Um, but the uncertainty of how that role would go is something that makes me so uncomfortable, but it's nice to have two.
SPEAKER_03It's oh, this is so real. I'm gonna fix my mic for a second because I I feel like it's creating weird shadows, but I'm so happy that you brought this up.
SPEAKER_02Um also uh tangle tangle myself.
SPEAKER_03Good news is that you're gonna hear all this like amplified. So sorry about that.
SPEAKER_02Mic's on, by the way.
SPEAKER_03You are my test subject.
SPEAKER_02Good, good. Okay. Okay. I don't know that I mind that it's like right there. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, I think it's super interesting that you bring that up about sales, because I also had this opportunity recently that came up that is about nothing that I ever thought that I would like transition myself into. However, the the benefits I think of learning to sell anything is like such a pivotal art form. Like the the art of selling really is a thing because you, you know, sometimes there's a script involved, there's like a product knowledge involved, there's interpersonal skills that are like invaluable. And it is, I mean, kind of like a marathon, except that you don't know when it's gonna be over. And like it really tests, I think it really, really tests like what it is that you're what you want from the experience. And obviously, if you want a sale, but also if you go in with that like that feeling and that neediness, like that other person, like every single one of us knows what it's like when someone is just trying to like buy us, and and to be able, I think, to build trust is really the thing that I feel like I'm gonna pull out of, you know, a very similar skill set, which this this sales experience for me is like 100% commission-based. And that's crazy. Like I that's crazy, but also it's that way for a reason. Because if you do it right, you make bank. And so it's like, okay, well, either you don't do it and you don't learn this skill, and that's fine, but also you do do it and you do learn the skill, and perhaps who even knows how I can bring that into the other facets of like my own business. Because yeah, I think uh contracting or freelancing or just being an entrepreneur, like there are stretches of time. It doesn't matter how good you are, it doesn't matter how much you care, I think. It doesn't matter how disciplined you've been, and it doesn't matter like who you know. Like sometimes there is a a dry period, and you're just like, okay, what else can I be doing? And what can I be learning? I think in this immense uncertainty. But I you said that you got itchy, like with uncertainty. Like, is that like more of like a saying, or do you physically, is that like a physical manifestation?
SPEAKER_00Um, it's it's more just just feeling not not physically itchy, but just very uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_03Where do you where do you feel it in your in your body if you have like uh like physical anxiety or whatnot that that comes up?
SPEAKER_00My gosh. This is probably too much information, but I have always had sweaty hands and it has always manifested that way. And so yeah, that that is the T. But I think that it's interesting, you know, getting older. I don't know if you feel this way too, but being more aware of your body and being more um just like in tune with your reactions to things. And I think that that has helped me kind of follow my intuition a little bit more and be like, ooh, this is a no or this is a yes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I mean I feel it's interesting because sometimes things in the body like come up that I think there's so much like current like literature and and opinion on like sitting with the feeling. And there's a lot in it that you have to sit with, which I know I would not object to, but there's some some feelings aren't actually real. Like there's a there's there's some that I think I'm coming uh up against lately that are more dealing with the the uncertainty of things and like really releasing any control that I think that I have over this thing, and like where it comes up for me and my body is it's really like a like a a gut type of it's like a feeling in like my stomach where I'm like, oh yeah, that's it, which is great actually, because it used to be in my vocal cords, which is not a great place when you're trying to sing or you're trying to talk or you're trying to really be present. And so I'm like grateful that it's dropped somewhere else. But also I don't really want it to to be anywhere in in the body, but yeah. I guess when it comes to yeah, I'm super curious as to like what sweaty hands like might mean if it's like holding on to something. Like it's like it feels like it's like outside of your grasp or something. But like I know with with uh stomach things that has so much to do with where fear lives, you know, with like a very uh certain type of fear.
SPEAKER_02So that is interesting. It is.
SPEAKER_00I need to do some research. I've been dealing with this my whole life, it feels like does it does it um does it come up in like do you ever get anxiousness and other on other parts of kind of showing up for yourself, like presentations or um uncertain travel or yeah, presentations my whole life, always so nervous. Um I think that it was interesting posting about the podcast. I don't know if you saw this thread, but I was very honest online and I was like, it is wild to me that I am starting a podcast because that girl back then would have never done anything like this. And yeah, it's just crazy how things can um can manifest. And yeah, always, always a very nervous public speaker, but it's getting easier, I think. And it's like that repetition thing.
SPEAKER_03Life really is just like repetition. It really is just until you know it's the last time you do something, which is not something that most of us are privy to.
raining Mindset And Personal Limits
SPEAKER_02But when is your marathon, by the way?
SPEAKER_00It's in July. It's in July. It's in July, yeah. And it's it's a ha it's a half marathon, so thank goodness it's it's not a full yet, but maybe someday.
SPEAKER_02Well, how long have you been training for it?
SPEAKER_00I started in September, and I just looked at my Strava, and it's been like I think 20, 22, 23 weeks that I've that I've ran for. And I have had three knee surgeries before the age of 20, and now I'm 31. So we shall see how this goes.
SPEAKER_03That is super exciting, being able to test your limits, like your and also, yeah, to be able to like test your limits and like far exceed. That's that's just super, that's like the that's the epitome of like the 80s montage, I think, which is like training or something, and then and then exceeding that expectation. Just exhilarating for like you, but literally everyone around you, I think, too, to be like, she did it, like she did it, she did it in her knees.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think it's crazy to just um I think that we put a lot of limits on ourselves, whether it's physically or mentally. And what I've found is like creating she says it, doing the podcast, doing you know, this training for this running, it all goes hand in hand, building confidence and showing up. And I think it's been like really invaluable to be doing it all at the same time, overwhelming, but I've been learning so much about myself. And a previous version of me, I don't think would have been able to handle all of this all at once. So it's great to, you know, I said that the girl with the journal was, I'm saying the same things now, but there also is a lot of shifting that goes on. And I do think it has a lot to do with the support around you and and people that are like in your corner and being really positive about things too.
SPEAKER_02The the positivity, I think, is the half of it.
SPEAKER_03Like I think it might be like more than half of it, actually, because and it kind of goes back to the idea of like having like a team of people. Having a manager in your corner is uh probably like an invaluable experience as someone who's doing the sort of repetition of showing up in entertainment in any way, and you know, or in something that consistently requires you to be some version of yourself and to show up and you know, use the same voice or the same the same performance, whatever it is. And I think having a manager there is something that like everybody needs, and it doesn't in any industry, like to be able to have someone in your corner, whether it's like a coach, to tell you that you're doing the right thing, like you're doing this for a reason, and like remind you that you're real, like it's what you what you think is real, it's very much there for a reason, and like that you're powerful, or that you're freaking talented, or that you're yeah, or that it's like okay that you didn't do great today. You know, it's like totally good you actually did a terrible job today. Like, I still you're still fine. Like that, it's okay because you showed up.
SPEAKER_00We're still good. Yeah, that's it's been so funny. Um just seeing like the difference in like times that I run like a mile in or three miles in. They vary so much day to day, but I'm still showing up, and I think that that is enough, you know.
ife Lists And The Butterfly Effect
SPEAKER_03I I think it's like a really remarkable thing to to hold oneself accountable and and yeah, to go after especially like telling. I don't know if you get this, but like when you tell people that you're gonna do this thing too, you're like, okay, well, everybody knows so now we're actually for sure like have to do this. I have to do this. When you don't do the thing and someone checks in and you're like, oh damn it. Yeah, whoops. Yeah, I think that that can be very deterring. I think also creatively that that's a massive problem for people when they give away a little bit of your power because you say that you're gonna do this thing and you mean it so much. And maybe you've heard this before, but it's there's the science behind when you say that you're gonna do something, you have the same chemical release in your brain as if you'd already done it. And so like people are like, oh, I'm good. Like they actually have a sense of fulfillment and you didn't do the thing, but you keep talking about it. And the more you talk about doing a thing and don't do it, you're like, you're just like pacifying your experience and and so often kind of giving it away, which is really tragic.
SPEAKER_00I have um created this list of 32 things I want to do before I'm 32. My birthday is in August 23rd, and it is now February. So I guess I have like six-ish months to get it done, but we shall see. But I will say that the process of doing that has been just really incredible. I think that I said I was going to do um a hiking club in Seattle, that's where I live, and I did that last summer, and just like the butterfly effect of meeting certain friends on the trail, and now we hang out all the time. I'm like, wow, like just putting things out there that you wouldn't normally do can lead to incredible things. And now I'm like, okay, I do want to get the 32 things done, but it's not the sole focus anymore. It's more like the process along the way.
SPEAKER_03That is pure poetry. Pure poetry.
SPEAKER_02What happens?
SPEAKER_03How did you start your hiking club?
SPEAKER_02Like, did you did you like do a thing on Instagram where you just like kept showing up and then people were like, I want to hike with you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it's through um a Palladio studio in Seattle called Move. And the summer before I really wanted to do it, but I was living at my parents' house. So I wasn't, I had moved back from Arizona and I was in a bit of a transition period. So I just wasn't able to make it um that summer. So it was something I kept an eye on for the next summer, and all of the girls ended up just being so, so nice and and friendly and and all of that. And yeah, there's probably a group of like 20 people every week that go.
SPEAKER_03What's um what's an example of the the butterfly effect that happened from that? Just from like meeting people and like cultivating real friendships, or did other like passions come along with it because of who you met?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Oh, this is such a good question.
SPEAKER_00So there's this a friend of mine. Um, her name is Bethany, and I met her on the trail, and she has this like intuitive healing um business that that she does. And her and I just started talking. I was talking about, you know, a previous relationship that I had had, and I just kind of needed some healing energy from that experience. It had been something that had stuck with me for a long time. And she offered this program, and so I decided to sign up. And through that program, I think it helped me more than like therapy had ever had ever done. Um, and just gave me a lot more confidence in myself. And that is kind of, I think, what led to starting she says it and having all these amazing conversations and meeting all these people and and stuff. So it really truly has been a butterfly effect. And I'm just really thankful that I met her and did the hiking group and everything like that. And it's just it's funny looking back on that series of events and where life takes you. I think I was just more open than I had been in in years. So that I think too is important.
SPEAKER_03Did you feel open just in your choices? Like you were open to whatever you weren't putting as much pressure on your choices, or do you think it was um like more of a mindset or like heart-based? I think they all feel a little different, but I'm curious as to what open means for you.
SPEAKER_00I think I was just I like decided to kind of just shift my mindset and be just a little bit more like present and a little bit more goal-oriented than I than I had been in the last year with like things that felt really aligned. Um instead of listening to like the opinions of other people and and what I should do. It was more like, you know, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this list for me, and we're gonna see what happens. It is cheesy, but I watched um the life list on Netflix, and it kind of gave me some good inspo to to get going on that.
SPEAKER_03It's not it's not cheesy at all. One of the films, because it was during like hurricane season, and I remember there was really like there was just like bad storm after bad storm, and I had put on The Secret. And have you ever seen The Secret? It's it was like No, but I need to. It's I mean, it's pretty much about it's about it's like after the the book by Rhonda Burns. And she and it's I mean, it just it's you it uses all of that law of attraction, like rhetoric. But it's such a good, it's one of those films for me that's like it I I couldn't help but help, it helps with my my belief system where I was like, oh yeah, you've done so much work on all every other facet of like self-recognition and and and trust and healing and you know, so many, so many ventures into healing and all of the metaphysical things about that, I think. And to be able to have a movie kind of like remind you, do you believe it? You know, and like what are your actions kind of reflecting that you believe this? And it was one of those, it was definitely one of those pivotal moments for me too, where I was like, it was the next piece that I needed on the the journey of like getting what I want. So I don't think it's cheesy at all. Like I love when just kind of like does the thing and you're like, damn, that was good. I haven't watched it, I think, since then, but I kind of have been called to do it.
SPEAKER_02So this was a good reminder to watch it. What is the the name of the movie?
SPEAKER_00Um it's it's the life list, and it's about a girl who loses her mom, and her mom gives her her like life list of things that she wants her daughter to to do, and she goes out and starts doing them, and she falls in love, and it's just this like really cool story, I feel like, of living life to the fullest. And I watched it at a time when I felt like I was not living life to the fullest, and so it was a bit of like a a wake-up call, like, oh, I did see this, I did see this.
SPEAKER_03Okay, this was a yeah, that was a great movie. Yeah, it was good. That was sad, but like inspiring and like deeply inspiring. It's like the reason I think like good film and good stories exist. And I think with that character, what I remember from the narrative too. So you tell me if I'm wrong, is that she yeah, had like a big sense of like control and like couldn't see some of the stuff that was just like right in front of her, which to me is just such a do you have like I have that's a moment for me sometimes where I'm like, oh, this was like here the whole time, you know. I'm like, oh.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that I that's so profound. I think along this process of doing this list, I have realized, you know, the world is complicated and messy and hard, but I have realized that there is a lot to be thankful for and people that have been there the whole time that are in my corner. And I think without that just experience of doing this list, and like I have, you know, more glamorous things on there, like going to Japan or um, you know, the half marathon, maybe that's not glamorous, but just bigger, bigger things on there. But I think I've found that the things that have been the most impactful are like the smaller but still like very important things. So that has been interesting to see too.
SPEAKER_03I I I love that. Like the the idea that the smaller things it's like the steps that you take. Like the steps are very important, the steps are integral to getting up the staircase. I wonder if I should make a list this year. I don't that gives me. I mean, I certainly am a goal-oriented person. Like, you know, I have like um lofty ideas, I'm sure. I'm sure everybody falls into this category, but there's something probably a little more verse about like creating a list that is like about the experience of things and not necessarily like the the conquering of it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, so true. I think I I haven't talked about this list with too many people, but the people that I have talked to about it are people that I trust and people that I think just get it, that it's not about um admiration or it's not about you know being like, ooh, I'm so cool. I I went to Japan, or you know, it's not about that. It's about the journey and like what I'll learn. And just like I said, I think living life to the fullest. I think I don't know if you relate to this, but there was a time, you know, a couple of years ago where I wasn't doing that. And after reflecting, it's kind of just like, why not? It's been it's been great to to get there. Yeah, I think it's I think it's like for me, it was maybe fear-based or um instances in my life where I had failed and wondering if I tried again, if I would fail again. And so I added things like like career types of things, like take a writing class, like I took a write, a travel writing seminar, and I took like a graphic design seminar and stuff like that. So things where I was learning again, and that has all translated into just really cool things that I can use in the podcast and in general just that that learning aspect. And I think that I was a little bit just stuck in my own head about moving forward and not wanting to make the wrong decision with things again. And that's just being way too hard on yourself at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I like self self-critique, I think, and and being able to being able to to be kind, I think, is literally one of the the most powerful skills a person can really have. And I don't know that everybody was like taught kindness, you know, especially like kindness, kindness towards yourself, like to not have that. Yes. It's like it will just it'll see you overcommitting, you know, if you're not kind to yourself, it will see you uh, you know, being exhausted, it will see to you having really cruel inner monologue that isn't certainly isn't helping you get to where like you're going. And then yeah, like I think if you're kind to yourself, you're probably certainly kind to other people. And I don't know, I don't know about you, but even when it comes to partnership, kindness was like never something that I it was like that I held to be of great value. I mean, I I wanted kindness, but I didn't understand that it was like a core value until you know, having dated a lot and like really understanding that it's a strength to be kind.
SPEAKER_00Totally. And like I what I've noticed, I think, is that I was always like the very nice, um nice girl that was just such a people pleaser, and I wasn't articulating like what I actually needed and wanted. And so when that happens, I think it's inevitable that people they don't know what you want, and so they're not going to, and you don't have a standard, so it's just it ends up becoming a little bit of a mess. And I think what I've tried to cultivate in the last couple of years is like you said, just a kindness. Yeah, I mean, I I guess that I think your relationship towards yourself kind of comes with experience too.
SPEAKER_03So we can only be we can only be mean for so long until yeah, you like talking to yourself and they're like, oh my god, like don't you're don't say that to yourself. That's not nice. I think I had been very fortunate to have lovely friends to to call you out when you're being mean to yourself, which that would probably be my one um bit of advice to myself, I think is to yeah, to be kind. What is one bit of advice that you would really extend to yourself that you think has just been critical in on your path?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say the advice I would give myself is Maddie, you can't do it all all at once. And it's something I'm still learning all the time.
SPEAKER_02That is that's a good one.
SPEAKER_03That's very that's it's so hard not to, I think, especially when you're creative, like to be having inspiration kind of just like spit at you from every direction. And yeah, especially if you like people and you like trying new things, and very quickly stuff will distract you or you know, be of like great interest, and you'll kind of have to decide to like put something else down. Maybe not forever, but yeah, it's it's hard.
SPEAKER_02I think that's a very hard thing to have to learn, and that's wonderful advice.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's it's like um, you know, I want to do everything perfectly all the time, but that is not realistic, and I think setting yourself up to do that is like it's not gonna work, and and that's okay. And I think giving yourself room to to realize that things will happen over time, yeah. That's I think that you have uh a wonderful.
SPEAKER_03A wonderful sense of like who you are. And I I can I can tell I can understand fully why you've chosen to embark on the podcast ship. And I uh I just you know want to extend all of uh the positive energy towards your your ship's sales so that you can know where you're going because I I can uh totally understand what you wanted to do. I think it was a beautiful choice, and I'm looking forward to see how you how you grow on the journey and all the people you get to talk to.
he Says It Community And Where To Find
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I feel really excited and like it is something that is a fit, so it's nice to be in alignment.
SPEAKER_03Definitely, definitely. Um, do you is there anything that you'd like to say about your uh podcast uh before I like to let you go as far as where like when it airs and um yeah, if anybody maybe wants to reach out to the audience? I don't know how you let scroll overshadow.
SPEAKER_00So she says it is a podcast and um creative community for women who want to say it or do it or create it, and it's really about empowering us as women to have the courage to speak, and I think that really encompasses just being authentic to yourself, and you don't have to be like everyone else to be successful, and I have Sunday sessions in February that are the rest of the month, and then I have my more interview title episodes that are going to be um every month, so that everyone and I have a strategic communication studio that I'm so so excited about. It's a really great community for women, and it's a very personalized um process and all about helping women with their voice and their business. So you can check that out at madlycreative.co um thank you so much, Madeline.
SPEAKER_03This has been absolutely delightful. Um, I really appreciate you opening up and talking about you know any vulnerabilities and any sincerity. I just absolutely adore. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much. I really enjoyed talking to you. It was lovely.
ideo Podcast Plans And Closing
SPEAKER_03And I just want to say big thank you. I think it's always a little intense or intimidating when you're speaking with someone you've never met before and you're talking about what to do, and it's online, and a lot of it feels out of your control. And I think it was great. And um, I look forward to maybe one day meeting in person. Can I call you that? Is that it's the first YouTube version of I mean it's the first video version of this as a metaphor. And so there's it's a little different. Um, the content's gonna be the same, but the intro and the outro is gonna be a little different based on the platform. What is video based and one what is not. And if you've been following me for a little while, you know that I pursue many different um modes of expression and really being more prominent in scene on YouTube as a goal here based off of some of my own I mean, what I'm trying to get after, and so being able to pull together some of my narration as far as this podcast and some of my visual output with my studio creation and and what will eventually be the studio to record. This is a metaphor inside the stuff that's gonna be happening over the next couple of months for me, and so being able to document it on YouTube and have a seamless bridge between the podcast and what I'm actually doing in the little world, so I can start being seen more and get more listeners and really get more opportunities with what I do as a specialist and as an artist and as a creator. All these things have a purpose, and you know, at some point you just have to make music with it, and that's what I'm trying to do. And I think that's doing the same thing, and so we have to make a little music together, and I hope you had quite a good time listening to it. You can find our podcast in the link above a place on whatever platform you listen to. This is a metaphor on. And if you are probably female, she really loves to work with females and to promote women speaking up and out about what they're doing and to give them a space in order to say those things. And if that calls to you, please go follow her, check her out on Instagram and and give her a listen. And until next time, I hope you stay kind. Stay kind.