Negative Film, Negative Space & Positive Thoughts w/Stephen Zane

Uncertainty is everywhere right now, and it can either shut you down or sharpen you. Mo sit’s down with Stephen Zane, a portrait photographer and the owner of Ybor City’s Coastal Film Lab, in Tampa Bay Florida. Together they talk about what it really takes to build a creative business while protecting your mind. We get into the boundaries that keep you informed without getting swallowed by news, and why a little positivity is not naïve, it is necessary fuel.

Before you dive into this wonderful episode, please know we recorded in the bustling studio space and took ample time to figure out the best Audio editing in order to see to this conversation being published. If there are any hiccups in the sound—we’ve done our best and feel the conversation is worth the busy background!

They also pull back the curtain on the unglamorous side of analog photography and film development: leases, staffing, backlogs, and the constant game of fixing what is most broken. Stephen shares how he approached risk without taking on debt, how the lab grew faster than the space could hold, and what happens when an open concept shop becomes both a community magnet and a chaos amplifier. If you are building any kind of small business, the lessons on systems, efficiency, and gradual improvement translate fast.

Then they go deep on craft and focus. How do you master the technical side of photography so you can stop thinking about settings and start making intentional images? What does a creative plateau actually mean, and why do warm-up periods happen before you hit flow? Mo and Stephen talk ADHD, hyperfocus, walks and showers as reset tools, competitiveness turned into steady improvement, and why your attention span might be the most valuable asset you have.

You can find Stephen & the whole crew over at https://www.coastalfilmlab.com/ or him directly at https://stephenzane.com/
And see all the cool film things at https://www.instagram.com/coastalfilmlab 

If you have ever felt pulled between ambition and burnout, this one is a doozy.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share it with a friend who is building something, and leave a review so more creative people can find the show.

Instagram: @tiam.podcast &  @joyscout.mo 

For Guest Inquiries, collaborations, and questions:

Email Mo: mo@joyscoutstudio.com

“Don’t get Deterred, get Inspired” 

Transcript

Welcome To Coastal Film Lab

SPEAKER_01 0:13

So I met Steven back in the beginning of the year because I was doing a piece for Tampa Bay Arts Passport. And I really enjoyed talking to him. And we, you know, it was supposed to be a short article, and we ended up speaking for about an hour and a half. And I was, I you know, I was like, well, let's just let's do a podcast. Let's let's do this. And um, and then we did. I'm so happy because if you if you're not familiar with him, um, he's a portrait photographer and the owner of Coastal Film Lab. And if you are curious in analog photography or have any photos or any any memories that you want digitized, or you want to shop film equipment, or you have something you need to prepare on, or just general knowledge on how to do what you want to do when it comes to the world of film, this is the place to go, and you will probably see a bunch of cool people that you will want to be friends with almost immediately. Until you do that, please enjoy this conversation.

unknown 1:19

Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

I would I would argue that everybody in this space definitely holds true to like setting a tone fashion-wise. Like everybody, everybody has a little bit of an edge and represent. Yeah, there's no missed corner.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Everybody's got their own personality on display.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Yeah. That's like really exciting to walk into too, as I immediately an energy.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the that's the whole goal of the space, is that we can have a kind of a fun and welcoming and inviting space that uh everybody can kind of be hunky or strange artistic person who does all sorts of interesting things. I don't know where I'm going with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

I picked that up. I I think that you're going in the truth, the direction of truth. Um so I'm really excited and happy that you wanted to to to chat because when I last spoke with you, it was like October and I had come for a publication and we had been talking about the the mailbox and and the the funness there, but then there was just so much more of a conversation. And I had just really gotten into the zone of podcasting, and I was like, I really feel like there's a lot to talk

Uncertainty And Setting Healthy Boundaries

SPEAKER_01 2:29

about. And I feel like I remember we left off on this conversation about uncertainty, like uncertainty in having a creative dream or like a creative pursuit, and how much uncertainty I think is like a massive theme right now, not just with an entrepreneur, but like just like people, yeah, in every direction. You're like, what is happening?

SPEAKER_00 2:54

I'm gonna do one tiny tweak to the lighting real quick while I'm seated.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Oh, ambiance? How about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Yeah, that one was that one needed to be a little brighter because your face was getting some kind of funky shadows on it. Okay, we are all good. Sorry. Continuing on.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

No more funk, okay. Um, but just that uncertainty is I think like consume it can be very consuming and knock you over.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Yeah, I think that's something that can be tricky, is you know, with every there are all the like crazy things going on in the world and stuff, it's it's hard to know how much to pay attention to.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Um because it's like obviously you need you obviously want to pay attention to some level because they show you care about things and all that, but then also there's only so much of a level that's actually like healthy.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Especially when you can't maybe necessarily change the course of American life by yourself, you know? It's like there's a level where it's like, okay, you need to reserve some space for yourself to be able to do your own creative things without necessarily having to be polluted by the toxicity and negativity of society at large. But I don't know. Maybe that's not a people are in a lot of conversation about that right now. Like what the what the appropriate level of boundaries are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you where do you put those boundaries? Is it okay to put any boundaries? I mean, I think you have to put something. You really have to, or you're gonna just consume news 24-7, you'll you'll die.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Like you really like you will kill that that inner curiosity, and you like very much need that, I think, to like get to where you're going.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

And you need to, I think, I don't know. My my sense is that you need to have there needs to be some level of positivity in your life. It can't be all all like the hostility of politics in 2025 and pop culture in 2025, or what year are we in?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

They're very quickly like I like intertwining too. Like it's never really been separate, I think. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

It's a really all one gross conglomerate of misinformation, it seems.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

But I won't go too political. I I guess I the I think a big theme for me, especially in January, was just getting really comfortable with being deeply uncomfortable about the things I like can't control and I and I don't just mean like like economically or like in your community or in your country, but like on your path. And I remember when we were talking, I mean you were talking about starting this business and like the levels of I think enthusiasm you have to do have to have like in order to do that, but then also like how much doubt did you have to deal with and how did you get like how did you balance out the doubt?

Risk Tolerance And Starting The Business

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, uh, I mean, my risk tolerance is perhaps a little higher than the average person. Um like what? I have some perhaps to a a detriment. I don't necessarily always think of the downsides of things before I do them.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Is that like an amygdala thing?

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Is that is just a little bit of a which can which can cause issues that could really help me. I think I remember in high school doing the BMX thing when remember the first time I ever rode up one of those like the the pools at like the skate park or whatever. Yeah. I didn't realize that you couldn't just go straight at it. And so the first time I did it, I was like, I'm going to get air out of this thing.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

And I just went straight up the side, and then I realized if you go straight up as opposed to at an angle, you you go back out and then you land flat as opposed to landing on the little so I think that's probably a good summary of how my brain did you hit your head?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

Was there a head hitting?

SPEAKER_00 6:22

No, there's no head injury, but I definitely knocked I fell my back and got the wind knocked out of me pretty good. It's like, yeah, I'm not gonna do that again.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Did you like consistently do this? You know, did you get better or was that was that?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

I was kind of the one in dinosaur of airing out of a bowl of a pool. I was like, I think that's not for me. I don't I think that level of injury is as big as what I'm looking for in life.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

But yeah, no the too brave, too brave, actually. Like save one's own life and step away.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Yeah, the I think I think I'd realize with that sort of stuff that like my lack of danger sense was probably detrimental because like the kids that got a lot better would would be a little more actually would be a little more cautious about it and they'd slowly ramp up the risk. Whereas I'd just go full all the way to 100 and then end up hurting myself or something.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Has that come into play with your like professional pursuit? Let's that seem to be like a good counter. You definitely counterpart is like full risk.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Swing big, you'll you'll you'll hit real far if you if you hit, and if you don't, you'll just look really silly.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

Um did you get comfortable with looking silly or have you uh you get good at laughing at yourself, I'd say.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

That's for sure. You you gotta you gotta you have to be good at laughing at yourself if you're doing that. It's you're not gonna have a good time otherwise. So so I I've definitely made myself made a fool of myself on numerous occasions, but you just you just keep going, you laugh, and as long as it's not a yeah, you don't dwell on it and just kind of move on. Um But I think the the lab was was fairly calculated. I mean we the like jokes aside, I think this was something that it was like the it was easy in the we you started a lab in a town where there wasn't any like photo business at all. And so that was very easy. And then it was like kind of the right moment as far as like you know, we started during COVID and like everybody needed something to do and was looking for kind of hobbies that they could go outside to do, you know. So that made it really easy to find people. Um and it was kind of already on its way up even before that. So there was just a lot of general momentum, you know, it's it's not like the same level of risk as like, you know, if we'd started this place in like some tiny town in the Midwest or something, it probably would have been way harder. But you know, it's like it's like a tight city. So like it wasn't yeah, it was achievable. And I think basically what my my upfront was like I didn't have a lot of money to invest, I didn't take out any debt. So like I in my head, I was like, I just have to make back the little tiny amount of savings that I was able to put into initially. And if I can do that, then we're fine. And then I can just close it after a year, like you know, worst case, and I it wouldn't be the end of the world. Um, because my the first time the first year of lease of this place was was just a one-year lease. So it was it was very like slow stakes in some regard. Was that a fast year or was it like January was, which I feel like was two years of so it started in the middle, because we it was we started in the middle of of 2021 um with like the retail store at least, because we'd been working out of my house um yeah, yeah, for about like the previous 18 or so not quite 18 months, because it was you know, there was a couple months you couldn't do anything in 2020, but um and and that kind of we had like a year of runaway from that, and then we had to like close to start working on the build out for this because like there wasn't enough money to do both, and there wasn't enough staff to do both. It was me and two other people, so yeah. So we started we had to close starting the build out, and then the rolls just kept like piling up, like people were still dropping off, like and I was letting people drop off so that we'd have a lot to do once we kind of got the ball rolling. So we we got from I think at the time it was like probably 300 rolls like saved up, which at the time was like a crazy amount. We were like 300 rolls to develop. Oh my goodness. Now we do that every day and a half, so it's it's now it would be like no big deal, but you know, we now we have all these people and like systems and all this stuff. And so at the time it was like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

It's uh I think it probably took us two weeks to get through it or something, but numbers I uh numbers I think when you don't know what they mean, oh yeah, that would be older like well, I mean I just mean even in the beginning of doing I mean like for anybody doing something new, like a number can be so overwhelming until you get your pace down and your rhythm, and suddenly you're like, Oh yeah, that's actually totally a doable thing, but like numbers don't mean anything until you have Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

I think the little the little improvements, you just gotta always get a little better at something. Like it's okay to like screw the first time you do something, you're gonna screw up pretty bad. And you you just have to think of all right, let's make a list of all the things I did wrong there, and then just kind of go down that list like what was the most wrong to least wrong, and then just go down that list of like, all right, well, I'm not gonna do the next the top one on the list wrong the next time or you know, maybe 10 times, 20 times later.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

And then you can kind of like work your way down until you're doing it mostly right, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Yeah. So do you really like that process of sort of having like a a task-oriented reflection on what just went down, or is it more of like a mental it's it's it's physical or mental?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

It's not it, you can make it real formal, or you can make it really like 50 journals that are just this is what went right today. My short-term memory is not great. My long-term memory is good, but my short-term memory is not great. It's the ADD thing. So so for me, I have to write almost everything down.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

So for me, I do, but if you're a person who you can you can hold more information in your head at one time, then you know you might be able to get away with that. I think I find writing it down is helpful.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I I agree. I writing stuff down is incredibly helpful, and especially with ADHD. I think that people recall so much because there's so much stimulation happening. And so I don't think we all we don't always store it where we think we're storing it. And so like I definitely have that information, but I don't know where I filed it.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Somewhere in the spaghetti dish that you're just like, all right, this is connected to that, which is connected to this.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Very much in the visual thing you were just doing, and you're like, it's in there, and when I do that action, it will come back into uh my cellular being.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

But until then, I have this notebook. So I I just try to just write things down as soon as I think of them immediately as soon as I do. But um, yeah, I think the the lab, it was always just lots of you know, when when you're doing a group thing, it's a lot easier to kind of because you know everybody's gonna have their own take on what the the most wrong thing is, right? And so you kind of have to come to that consensus of all right, what's the thing that's most broken that is the highest priority to fix? And usually that's kind of a scrum to figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Um the most broken. Because there's always gonna be a lot of broken things. And you're never gonna run out of broken things to fix. There's always so it's always like, okay, what is what is the most important?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

That's the thing that's the hardest to figure out, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:49

I feel like a quick fix can be really good for the soul time sometimes too. When you when maybe there's quite a few pieces that aren't quite coming together, you're like, what is the trash can that you picked over that you can like pick up the stuff that was in it?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

That would be a good start, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Yeah, and having the or just crumpling something up and putting it into the trash can can be deeply cathartic when you're like, this is clearly trash.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So that's you sometimes I'll I'll go and like or like shipping in the receiving area. I don't just go and like cut all the boxes up and throw them in the trash, and it's like just as like a little like reset, you know?

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Yeah, and like the dismantling of something. I feel like that would be very very purposeful when you're actually taking something apart.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Just a quick stab, you know, nothing sociopathic about it, I think. Just aggressively. Just cutting a dagger or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I'm not I'm not stabbing at it. I'm just just nicely cutting it apart.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Everything's fine emotionally. Everything is totally fine. Yeah.

Scaling Up Without Losing The Plot

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Um another thing that I was super curious about is what are when it comes to how much because it has to do with uncertainty, but like when it comes to being uncomfortable in expanding, because you're you're getting a new spot too, right? Is that am I making that up or expanding?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

The goal is to put a hole in the wall area and kind of just shift that way. We haven't managed the the wall, the hole in the wall part, but we're we've gotten a lot of the other renovations. Okay, so that's that'll be anything.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

How much more space is that?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

It's another third, so it's a third larger than what we are at now. Um, and mostly that was to just get a lot of our clutter out of the main space because when you have a big the open concept workplace is has its pros and cons. Um and the downside is then all of your mess is just out there for the world to see, which can keep you honest. Yeah, but it also is a little too chaotic sometimes. So we're trying to get some of the mess out of the main like community space and into a secondary space, and also give ourselves more room for like studio and that would give us the space to do things like this that wouldn't necessarily have to have customers walking by.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

So like yeah, I uh the added spaces is funny because when it comes to open workspaces, they're like saying in home design and and home flipping right now that a lot of like right before COVID, a lot of people wanted open concept and they were all investing in like having a kitchen that was connected to the dining room and could also be in the living space. And you can see and hear everything, and then suddenly you were forced inside and you were like, I really need you to not be in this space with me. Like I need to be alone so I can hear my thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

You need to be a room to yourself at least.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

There's like a lot of construction happening that's separating these great rooms that everybody wanted for a good 10 years, I think. And now we're like, copies are great, actually. Little quiet.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

I might be in the I might still be in the the like millennial coded idea that everything should be open, but mostly just because well for for what we're doing, I like it because it's it's useful for because we're trying to do something that's educat that's kind of fundamentally educational because we're trying to we're trying to get people into a sort of dead hobby, and like it's not dead anymore, but you know, it it kind of died for a while. Oh resurrection. A lot of this is educating where you're just pointing to the different things and explaining what they are. So it's kind of like the idea of having like the the factory with the little window where you can kind of look in and be like, that's what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Um, so I think that's something where that's important to us, but it it is good to have that that'll we're so we're gonna we are to that point hybridizing that and having some things that will be off and on their own where people can be left undisturbed and then there's a balance, I think, like especially when you're when you're creating.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

Like, have you have you worked from home before in a sense that you know what someone was doing right next to you is totally lovely when you're not trying to get something done, but otherwise it's like yeah you really need that.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

I have an old house that I live in and so that that the house we live in is lots of little little rooms, so it it it it's definitely always had it has that yeah. Um so the office being its own little thing is helpful. So it's very helpful. Yeah, yeah. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

When it comes to like expansion and growing into a space, what are some of the discomforts that have like popped up along the way that were surprising, if if any?

SPEAKER_00 17:12

I think one thing that was tricky for us because we're doing like a I don't know how how many people are really apply applicable to the whole like this is what it's like to run a retail business, because like that's not like something that's like as much in in vogue or popular to talk about anymore, I guess. Everybody's very like giving advice for people that have like a like an online business or something, which is much more general purpose. But for us, one thing that was tricky that that I didn't realize at first was just how quickly the space would fill up.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

So and that's also because our ambitions are kind of insane. So you know, I think you you have to do if you're if you're gonna if you're gonna get a space to work out of, you do have to kind of scale the space to your ambitions.

SPEAKER_02 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

So and if you do have a very large ambition, you might have to make this the space might have to be a lot bigger scale than you think it should be to fit whatever your needs are at the time. And I thought our this space was was scaled to the ambition we had, and it turns out it wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

So Well, you filled it. You filled the spected it, we floated about a year in.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

I think after I think it w after about a year it was already too small. Um so that that was a problem we didn't think we were gonna have, but oh well, you'll have to learn.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

I mean, I think that's a great problem. I think that's like the definition of success, is when you're like, I have now outgrown the pot that I was growing inside of.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Yeah, it does force you to figure out ways around it though. I will say we've we had to get a lot better at just getting more efficient and utilizing the room we had better.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Do you time block at all? Or is it more of like a only certain people in here or just efficiency with moving and what goes on when?

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah, just trying to set things up so people don't have to bonk into each other as much and get in each other's way. Yeah, yeah. That was helpful. And some of that is still kind of hard to be avoided, but we did little like subtle things, like we made our little like corral slash wall, great wall thing here that kind of has a bunch of desks inside of it so that we can kind of gently separate the customers from the employees that are actually trying to get their stuff done.

unknown 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Um, while still allowing people to kind of look in and see.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I mean, it's lovely to be able to walk in and be immediately sinking into an activity. It's like a treat very much. Like when you walk into the bakery and watch someone making, I don't know, laffy taffy or something. And then and it's just like it's neat. Far more technical for sure, obviously. I mean, I think that's all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Everything's got a like a level of of uh complexity to it that maybe might not be visible from the surface. I think like almost any job you can get, you can get like freakishly good at it, and like the getting freakishly good at it just is kind of just whittling down to what the actual thing is and just doing it over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

The you practice is like pretty much everything in preparation, I think. It's like sadly, not sadly, but like very surprisingly. You could be great at something, you can be super talented at something, you could be driven to do it, but like if you're not putting in the time, I think it doesn't really it doesn't matter. Like you have to consistently do something. And like environment really affects, I think, everything. You know, you might be in a practice environment, but you get thrown one curveball and suddenly, you know, you're really not prepped, and it can really knock you over. I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Right, yeah. I can I can I can get get behind that, I guess, as an idea. I think trying to think of where to go with that.

Technical Mastery And Creative Plateaus

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I think it comes into play with like photography in general, though, because like you have to be ready for quite a few elements, you know, even just if you're out there in the world, like I think that's a very technical side of being prepared, is like knowing you've equipment and like for other creative mediums, you know, the equipment comes very different, and that's maybe sometimes what you know or how much you've practiced the process of doing something. But like it's nice to know your tools.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I think that's one of those things that it you one thing I always advise people when they're coming in here is if they're just getting into photography, is just try to get as much of the technical stuff out of the way as quickly as possible. So just get relatively professional with all the boring technical side of things so that you can forget it and like let it become subconscious. I remember I had a moment where I I don't know, I I guess nobody ever really told me it was okay that to like not to like not think about the you know that kind of the technical aspect of like the art form that you practice. Um and I remember for a long time it was always very conscious about all the steps I was doing when I'd go to take a photo of someone or you know in a in an environment or on their own or some landscape or something. And I hit a point probably six years in where I completely I would go and I would take a photo and I would be so an autopilot that I'd be like, was that good? Did I did I do that right? Because I didn't have all that background thought process of you know looking at all the elements of it and being like, Do these all work together? Because I just done It so many times that it was all kind of instinctual at that point. And so you can get this weird existential crisis. This is a sidetrack, but you can get a weird existential crisis that'll hit where once you get kind of get like uh moderately to very proficient at something. Yes. Where you kind of feel like you you might feel like you're hitting a plateau. Like I'm not getting any better because I I I'm just I'm just going through the motions. But there's a chance that what really is happening there is that you've just hit you've just hit a point of proficiency where you're now ready to get to the next level.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah. It's nice to be that that moment of proficiency because it's like flow state, but then you'll start like plateauing, you know, and then you have to have like the next, I don't know, a new camera. That's a celebration point though.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

I don't think it should necessarily be a a negative thing. And I think then that just enables you to start worrying, maybe not worrying, but thinking about new things. Um so then you've you've mastered all the the basics of how to do that thing, including the composition and all that stuff. So now it comes very automatically to you. And then you can kind of start imposing artificial constraints to to give yourself new novelty for it.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Yeah. Like a scientific approach starts to weave its way back in. I I was doing um a portrait photography quite a few years ago and a lot of like brand photography. So like going to studios and helping people like capture you know what they're doing and put it into their brand. And I had like quite a I feel like there's quite a bit of freedom when it comes to creative expression. And when you like you can if you're in the right field, there's quite a bit that maybe you don't technically know how to like refine. And I think that there's total freedom in and being like limited because of like the end result, like what like what's added to the photo, like like maybe it's a little blurry in a way that is like stunning, or it's a little less refined, or you know, I think like composition will carry you through most stuff in life, honestly. But but when it comes to like little sometimes, like and I think like motion photography is a big thing right now where you're just getting the yeah, photographic the lights, but yeah, of movement.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

And there's something about that is yeah, like I don't know, that's very moving. My hot take on that is that that is needs to be a lot more intentional than it usually is. Okay, that motion is to be motivated by something.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

You can't just be like, These colors are nice, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I'm gonna check and make sure these are still recording because that one's still on. Perfect, and it still has battery, and it still has twenty seven minutes left, I think. And then this one is also still on and also has 27 minutes left. Fantastic. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Third fits.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Just because there's nobody to monitor it, I was like, yeah, we should probably Yeah, that's a good monitor. Make sure it's all still alive. Do you know that person?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Nope. I was just saying hi. She's fine. She seemed very nice.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 25:08

She's adding to the ambiance of the room. Um what were we just talking about?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Composition.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Composition. Yeah, well, I think composition is a lot of stuff. Like and being comfortable with negative space, I think is really freaking important as a human being. And most of us are not comfortable with space. We like to fill up everything, like with our with our thoughts, with our things, with our you know, just so uncomfortable with the unknown and and not to fighting something.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

And so, how would you say that plays into uh photographic composition? Sorry, uh like the the the more the more maximalist versus the minimalist perspective on that. That's such a good thing. You can go a lot of different directions.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

That's a that's a that's a I think that when it comes to composition and filling up space and photography, that it's actually maybe the the opposite. Like it's a real strength to be able like you could do so much with a frame and you could see so many different things just from your perspective versus like my perspective or the way that I would frame something, the way that you would frame something. And I think when I I remember, do you remember like 10 years ago, especially in the Instagram world? And I think this is this happened because everyone had pretty much iPhones and the the iPhone really couldn't process a lot of stuff, like it looked really crappy if you didn't know how to edit. And so we all went super minimal and photos, and it was like black and black and white or neutral colors, not like black and white editing, but just like as little as possible in a frame so that it was really pretty on your feed.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

And we had this like neutrality because I don't think people the busyness was like overwhelming emotionally, and then it went on the flip side where it was like maximalism, and I think like just holding your your phone got a lot easier, and we wanted things to be more textural and we wanted like excess, and and now I think both can coexist together, but yeah, I don't know if I'm even answering the question directly, but I think I blame or credit, I uh or credit the uh the all gray, the all grayish houses for that.

SPEAKER_00 27:16

I think people got kind of were like, okay, well, we don't want that, whatever that is. No, we're all good here. So there's also a difference between um something that is lacks all personality and something that is intentionally quiet, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Like I take that, yeah, intentionally quiet.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

That's important. You know, you it if you're gonna do something that's more on minimalist from an artistic perspective, it has to be very intentional. It can't be that you you weren't able to figure out what to do and so you just didn't do anything or you did the bare minimum. Then it's like that's not that doesn't count.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Like Yeah, like intention is something I think, especially when you get like skilled at something and you start recognizing the psychology of something, you know, and you work with more people who do it, you get pretty good at like calling people out who do hide behind like made-up rhetoric or something. Where you're like, yeah. Or like, yeah, if I were to say, yeah, I chose to make this photo blurring because I was a style versus that I just didn't have any of the settings. Yeah, you didn't have your anappropriate, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

You can definitely get lucky where you'll have something that'll just happen to work out, but I don't think you can the I think that is tough was when you is when you're and somebody who's a professional creative, somebody who's who's paid to be creative is that uh okay, but happy accidents aren't necessarily replicable. So so if somebody's paying you to be to do your specific thing, then how do you replicate that across time?

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah, I think the risk factor there could be very great. It could be very great, I think. Which is one of those areas that, like, I don't know, could pay off very well, but also um it could incredibly backfire because you only get one shot sometimes. Right. And you're not gonna get that, you're not gonna get that setting back, you're not gonna get that group of people back, you're not gonna get that event back or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Yeah, events are tough for that. Anything that involves like something that's not easily replicated again is always much harder.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

I think I was always I I did a lot of that, but I when I did mostly photography, I was much more comfortable in like the the the the photo shoot kind of confines where you can you can redo. Yeah, you can endlessly redo control your space. Although it's fun, the the events are fun because events are just like a microcosm of street photography where you're kind of just thrown into this space and you gotta just figure it out. And it's it's just it's just a through line.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

There's no backwards like I I uh it is a through line. I like that. And you get to really immerse yourself in the event. Like the more you're like connected with what's happening, like every direction is potentially a beautiful, a beautiful shot or a beautiful moment.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, always can be.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Yeah, I think that is high pressure for a lot of creatives though, I think. Mm-hmm. As a f as far as events, that's a different type of of mentality.

SPEAKER_00 30:02

Yeah, that I think the one thing I've noticed that is common with photography though is that um anything that you're doing that requires some intention, so like yeah, photographing an event or photographing on the street or photographing, you know, in a a photo shoot type context or something.

Warm-Up Time And Reset Rituals

SPEAKER_00 30:18

Anything other than basically just wandering around and taking photos is that you're going to I've always noticed that there's like the there's like a weird warm-up period that's like hard to get around. Like you can make you can shrink the time of the warm-up period, but like there's always gonna be some warm-up period where you're like you're just taking terrible pictures and you just have to kind of get through that to get to the point where you can where your brain starts clicking, and and that's not something to be scared of. It's just like, oh, you just gotta mentally prepare for that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

It's like I think it's like when you're at the gym and or doing anything more like physical, you gotta warm your your muscles up. Like it doesn't matter if you're a super athlete, like there's gonna be a moment where it's maybe pretty cold outside and you're just gonna have to work with the wake up and the connection. But I also think that compounding will get you in that like flow state. So like maybe the first day you had whether it's photography or another creative pursuit, you are like a little rough around the edges, maybe you had a quick break, or it's the first big gig, and so you're in there and you get warmed up and that's fine. And then the second day you've already like compounded that first day, and so you're in the flow, and then the third day you're like really just like jiving. I think I always I don't know, I call it a rule of three. And like if I'm if I'm like drawing, for instance, and I haven't drawn in maybe a few weeks or a couple months, there'll be this moment where I'm just like, ah, I've lost all ability. It's gone, it's like it's clearly terrible. It's gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'll like shed that, you know, tear that away, and then I'll go again, which is round two, and then I'll get really frustrated. And then round three is usually where I flip out a little bit, and whatever it is like was released, and I like allowed myself to be sucky, and then by it's like, I don't know, it's the rule three, I guess, where on that fourth time it's like good, you got it, you got out. Whatever was like backlogged. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

To get that into a good that's like that's a good way of thinking about it. I don't know that I've necessarily observed that precise of a correlation, but I think that's maybe because I don't do the same thing every time.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Yeah. Oh, so you like to get through.

SPEAKER_01 32:20

I I mean there's kind of poetic to be able to find new ways to to get somewhere. The only reason I called the rule three is I remember reading that when something traumatic happens to you, or just something that changes in your life day to day, where you can know it no longer was what it was, that it takes your brain three days to process the end of something. And and so, like, I I don't know, and I guess I kind of took that to heart over a lot of things where and like yeah, like three full days to to do something differently, or three full days to get back at something that you put down, or three full days to potentially, you know, um do something very poorly. I don't know. But on the fourth day, it's like, yeah, on the fourth day, if something's not connecting, then maybe it's time for a good therapy session or or like an intervention.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Some sort of a reset. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Or reframing, or hmm, let me think about this some more and let me Yes. For me, that's always like I like I'm movement is always my thing with that. So it's just I do like a little walk reset, is always the if I can't, if I can't get myself into the point where I can focus and function, I have to just take a little lap.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

I think that's brilliant. I I think they say that all the philosophers really like that was a key in philosophical pursuit is the art of walking. There's a book called The Art of Walking, I think. And it's and it's the great walks of time where people would go and clear their minds on how have you have you ever come back from a walk that was very long and you will feel like a different person. Like, like very literally, it was such a long walk that things happened mentally.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

I don't know about a different person, but it usually clears the cobwebs out though.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

I don't know, I feel like my own mentor mental whatever wheels or whatever are always wheels, isn't the right word. My own mental chaos is always there, but it but it it can get less for sure.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, on the on a good walk.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah, good walk.

Team Goals And Learning With ADHD

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I when it comes to this like expansion that's happening, and like you know, you said you had like lofty goals and big, big goals. How how much do you let like your your team and like your coworkers and even like people in your life, how much how much do you talk about like the goals versus like oh gosh, all the time.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

All the time.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

So it's like very is that is that like gasoline?

SPEAKER_00 34:46

They're implement uh informing those goals as much as I am, sometimes more. So sometimes they'll you know, like we'll have individual folks on the crew that have like their own goal that they want to work towards, and it's like, okay, how can we kind of subsume that into the bigger one?

SPEAKER_02 35:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Um, so that's I don't know, I think that yeah, there's and everybody's always got their various like little projects, like I know a couple of our um a couple of our guys are very big into like what well, one of our guys specifically is trying to build his own camera, and so that's like his big goal. And so we've been like, okay, how can we get enough money and get enough like capacity so that we can let you do that, you know, one day a week? Because I think I'd like to the there's like the the Google idea of doing of allowing the the people that are doing kind of more of the like knowledge worky type jobs to do like to spend 20% of their time like pursuing their own thing, yeah, like on the clock, but then with the idea that it'll like kind of benefit the overall whole of the company. Um so that's something that we're I'd like to we're aiming, I'd I'm aiming for, I guess. You know, take getting there is tricky because you you know you have to have enough income to make that happen, right? And we're not Google, so we don't have bazillions of dollars laying around.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Um but you know, we're like this little this little film lab community, but but I think that's something we're we're trying to do is like give everybody a little bit more space to kind of pursue their own like little niche. Yeah. But re doing that is requires like being hyper ambitious and like scaling outward like rapidly to be able to get to the point where you have enough like bandwidth that there's enough for everybody to do, but not too much, and kind of finding that balance is really hard.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

So yeah, I imagine when you when this place gets even bigger, there'll be some balancing happening there too, but it might be more like automatic.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

So that won't be it mostly when you're doing like a and it probably depends on what kind of like thing you're doing. But for us, I think that well, just well, just having more space is not gonna make anything substantially more complicated. I mean, it adds some cost, but it's not it just gives everyone more space to work, so that'll probably make everything a little more efficient as the hopes.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Negative space, the space still space from each other, yeah, then jumping on top of each other as much anymore.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

So that should be helpful. But um, yeah, I don't know. It's it we're we're all doing very physical things too, which is different. I think you know, a lot of like people that are kind of doing more entrepreneurial type things are are doing things that are very abstract now, and so I think it's funny to speak as somebody who's doing something that's very physical, as like a physical and an abstract component, and like how those are kind of constantly warring with each other. Um sometimes even literally just we just have so much stuff everywhere now, and it's yeah, figuring out what's actually needed is is kind of hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

But it is deeply organized, I think. There's quite a an organized, even when you walk in, I think there is there is intention. I'm glad it feels that way. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:50

Well, yeah, it doesn't seem like that way from my perspective, but I'm glad it feels that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's far better. I can't wait to have more like shelves in organization. It's green, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Yeah. That that comes with I think like it's quite a a privilege and an art form to be good at organization.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

And it's like I'm not I'm mediocre on a good day. Really?

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Okay, okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

No, I think uh we have one or two of the crew members that are very their brains are more organizationally gifted, and the goal is to kind of let them let them loose on the task at some point.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

Yeah. Well, it's like a treat if you really like it, I think. Like, let's let me in there. You just let me in there and I'll organize the shit out of that. Yeah. Cause yeah, not everybody has that that mindset.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah, I can I I know it's important. So I'll I'll do it out of knowing it's important, but not because I'm good at it.

SPEAKER_01 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

What was something in your I think so far, like in your career and in this business building that was a skill set that you just like didn't know that you had that just came to light?

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Skill set that I didn't know I had. I think the the ability, well, I don't know, this isn't really a skill set, but one thing I did learn I have learned is getting good at buckling down and doing things you don't want to do. It's just practice. That's all that is. There's no magic secret to it. I always thought it was just, oh, some people are just more oriented towards that. It's like, no, it's just you just have to just do it. You just have to be like, okay, I'm going to I'm going to do my accounting and bookkeeping in Texas, and then just it's whatever.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

I know. I what a gift it would be to enjoy those things. I think, you know, like there's someone out there that's like, love all those things is the great thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

Um so yeah, and then also there's like a thing of like, okay, maybe if you're maybe if you're avoiding something to this degree, it is something that you should just find somebody who's better at it than you and just you know. I don't think one idea I got from from my dad growing up that is you know not original to him, but is the idea that you should spend most of your mental energy trying to improve the things you're already good at rather than things you're not good at, because you can just make so much more progress in the areas you are good at. It does get a little hard sometimes when you're just like, okay, but there's no money, so I do I will have to do this thing that I'm not good at. And so there's that that balance is important.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Maybe you just allow something to be mediocre and but you just kind of buckle down and do it to a mediocre level and then stop there and then focus again on the this is just an idea.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

I don't I don't know if this is like no, I like the thought, the thought process because it it kind of goes into the plateauing too. Like that that's like a grace period if you got to a level of uh you know, a skill set that was high functioning enough to like succeed at what you're doing, then that that plateau area is a good moment to like step off and start putting that like education energy into something else. Because it is really taxing when you're learning something new. Like it's oh gosh, not uh sometimes physically, but like for me, I I I think there's so much like mental because your brain is expanding and growing with information and you have to reorganize, like you have to reorganize where you're putting things because you're now trying to implement the skill set that you're learning. And yeah, you can't be learning like you can't be learning everything new every day. That I can't even imagine if every area of your life was like, I am also getting better at this thing today, and then Yeah, it's I I think it seems like you can probably get yourself through depends on how hard it how taxing it is, but you can probably get yourself about four hours of learning a day that's actually productive.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

I think past that point it's like, and that's with some gaps and some space. And between the and more than that, is can be very it seems to be very challenging, if especially if it's real high level, it's real cognitively demeaning because your brain just burns out.

SPEAKER_02 41:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

So I think it it can be important to try to find a if you're somebody that wants to constantly be kind of like improving, you you have to kind of you have to structure yourself out in such a way that you're getting the you're getting those moments of of focusing on and on something new and learning something new for you know, I don't know however many hours that would be, a few hours. And then in between that you're giving your brain your break by doing like the like grunt work, like boring mediocre tasks that are you know answering emails or or doing some physical thing that and while you while your brain just chews on all that information you just learned.

SPEAKER_01 42:28

Um I think that that's that negative space coming back in again because you really have to give something space in order, like, okay, now it needs to sit down, marinate or yeah, integrate for it for I think that like 15-minute intervals are really effective. I don't know, as it as an ADHD or and someone who do you find that you can work on something for 15 minutes? No, when it comes to learning, I love a good 15-minute uh increment and then task switching 15 minutes and then going back to the other thing. And like so, I like to flip off unless it is, you know, there's certainly areas where that wouldn't do you any good. But when it's brand new, I think that's super effective. It's like 15 minutes and then you kind of stack those. And the more you get into the learning or the medium, then yeah, I think four hours is a really good chunk of time to like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

I think I don't know if you should do that all in one go. I think that I think it unless you have the hyper focus thing. I've got the hyper focus thing. And for me, I have to it takes me 15 to 30 minutes to get focused.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

And then if I can get in the zone, then I want to stay in the zone for as long as I can.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

Too many.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Uh not pharmacologically, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah, yeah. I uh I don't I don't I don't take like Adderall super consistently. Um totally affects my sleep.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

I do take stimulants, but I don't take anything that strong. I just take weak stimulants.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

So Okay, like this is a good amount coffee can be super effective. Um

SPEAKER_00 44:00

I think the and that that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Everybody f finds their own way of of coping with the What's one of your ways to get in there if you know you're about to do a a big chunk of time? Like like is it like a do you noise cancel or or like a really long time?

SPEAKER_00 44:16

That's what it is. Sometimes it'll be well it depends on what kind of task. So if it's like a work task where I'm actually having to work, then I I'd probably just put like instrumental music on or something if it was gonna be something that I really had to focus on, or like music or a podcast, if it was like something that wasn't quite as demanding. And then if it was something where I just have to think, then yeah, like a walk or like just literally taking a shower and just sitting there and washing your hair for 30 minutes and you're just wasting all the water. Sorry, state of Florida, but um, that's very useful.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yes. I I'm about to segue and I don't want to segue. I want to I was about to tell a shower story, and I'm like, I just don't know that it matters. But some people out there are taking two showers a day. Like that's their like that's how they grew up. And they're like, you have to take one of the show. That would probably be really useful every day.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

I could I could get so much thinking done if I took two showers a day.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Like I like I understand it feels to me. That's what I argued about.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

But man, you get so much thinking done. And if you just are like, well, I mean it's getting recycled, the water's not disappearing off the earth, then maybe you can justify that.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah, maybe if they're not gonna be able to do it if you live in a desert. But yeah, yeah. I just I read that and I was like, there's a whole group of people that like this very much how they were like were raised, where it's like, no, no, no, morning and evening, every day.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Like, I can see that. I could see that, especially you get the extra time to just sit there and clear out your thoughts for a little while. Yeah. That's useful. But you can get the same thing from like a walker, just some people like a heavy exercise will work for some people. For me, if I heavily exercise, I don't think I don't I can't heavily exercise and think if it doesn't work for me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

That sounds like quite a reprieve, actually. Like when you want to turn your brain off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you turn your brain off.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

But that's a different thing. Yeah. Versus walking is not that intense. You're thinking while you're walking, right?

Competitiveness, Parenting, Work-Life Reality

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Do you do any um like group activities as far as uh sports or something that is probably showed again?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

I gotta figure out. I thought I had to like for my own mental well-being, had to quit sports because I was so I was so uh hyper competitive.

SPEAKER_02 46:06

I was about to say, like, you strike me as someone who could be a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 46:09

I couldn't I couldn't chill and I was like, I'm not gonna like ruin my friend group over this game of ultimate frisbee here. That would that's not so do you get now that I'm older, I probably could I could probably just take it more easy, but when did you step away?

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Has it been like three years?

SPEAKER_00 46:23

It was probably like teenager years, so I don't think I did it past my 20s. So I could probably do it now and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

I've definitely had moments of my own competitiveness in the past where I I don't like insult people and it was not like you know, but I I feel like it would have their if I was playing poorly or they're paying playing poorly, it's a lot of peace. If they were playing poorly, it would I could definitely see myself like shutting down and like being so disappointed, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

For me, I would just get I would just get I would just get angry. Not not like angry in the sense of like yelling at somebody, but I you know you just keep pushing yourself harder and harder and harder and harder, and you're like, okay, I push myself way too hard for this like pickup game of soccer or whatever. It's not so where'd you put that energy?

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Soccer got it. Okay, me too. Yeah, running.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

This is running, lots of running.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Lots of running, very fast-paced environment. One that will exhaust you very quick.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

I I did midfield, so it's just nothing but running. It's all you're doing is running up and down.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

I love a good clearing of the ball too. Like I played midfield and then defense, like I a lot of a lot of defender action, and I would like clearing of the ball. It's like one of those very simple things.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

I wish there was something else I could explain.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

Yeah. I wish I could explain something else in life that like had that feeling where you just knew you were just trying to get it up the field.

SPEAKER_00 47:35

I don't like throwing things away. I feel like that's that's very similar. Getting rid of things is that's what I would identify that as.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Or yeah, I guess especially if it was someone else's thing. You made the call for them, and you were like, this no, this is done now. Actually, I've tossed it for you. You're clearly hoarding. This is a problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

For me, it's just me, but I don't know. I'm usually the the hoarder hoarder in chief here.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

So the hoarder and sheep, that's really that's good too. That's good copy. Really good copy. When it comes to a competitive uh part of yourself, if you're no longer on the field or in that, like where does that go? Where do you put that energy?

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Just the lab, pretty much. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

In a healthier pursuit, or yeah, it's pretty healthy.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Uh you'll have those, you'll have those like not as healthy thoughts, and you'd be like, no, we're not doing that. We're not doing that. We're not we're not sabotaging the competition here today. We're just we'll just compete fairly.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Those thoughts occur. You just you just go, nope, that's not right, and you keep going.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yeah. Journal about it, I think. That's helpful.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

So yeah, but no, it's mostly just trying to figure out uh the this the that's a I think the healthy way of doing that is just constant improvement. But the problem with constant improvement you can get into is definitely you can definitely get into an unhealthy place where it becomes like uh you're never being satisfied with with where you're at.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

I don't know that I've figured that one out. Maybe, maybe in 10 years, 15 years I'll have a better sense of how to be okay with where I'm at at the moment and not just be stressed out about improvement. I think that just takes time.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

The yeah, the self-critique, I think, especially when there's deep thinking involved and like always being task-oriented as to like how to fix the situation. It's so easy to like click into the mindset of I could do this better, or there's another way for me to do this that would be more effective. And I think turning that off is really challenging for a lot of self-critical people, I think, but like especially entrepreneurs, because you're in that mindset all day, I think. And it's really hard to turn that thing off and it goes with you everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Yeah, I usually have to the the the classic like sitting in your car when you get home for like five minutes and just like staring into outer space. I thought you were gonna say like cry.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

No, no, it's just the staring in outer space.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

But yeah, hopefully not. Usually things go reasonably well. So it's yeah. That one's not necessary usually, but but yeah, the staring in outer space for five minutes and just being like, all right, I'm transitioning to trying to be chill. But then you'll you will you'll you'll carry it home and then you'll be like it suckless when you're working from home too, because then it like it never leaves and you're just like, how do I get to the I think that's whether you need the you need a you need a transition activity to get yourself out of the I think it's good to have like like uh separate rooms back to the room thing, but like I think it's healthy if you had like a studio space or an office or like to have a little bit of a separate space because I I oh I remember I started freelancing, I had my massive, very cool studio desk that had a lot of projects on top of it, but it was kind of like right near like the foyer of how this apartment was laid out, right?

SPEAKER_01 50:47

And it was like great when I was home by myself, but I was like seeing someone at the time, and I didn't really realize every morning like I would wake up and like you know, get ready, and it would just be like waiting for it's like right there. It's like it's like this thing that's asking you, have you finished this yet? And it's just picking up so much real estate in your life.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Then you spend more time worrying about it than you do actually working on it.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, and then it was the guilt where like you walk past it on your way out the door if you're procrastinating, just all of the the the compounding. Like it just takes up so much, and so it's nice to have it there to remind yourself like this is what I want to be doing. But also if you can't turn it off and you're always thinking about it, I would not recommend that to be. I would not recommend that style of that that can be hard, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

I don't I think you have to find I don't know, I'm I'm not the best advocate for uh work life balance. I don't I don't think in my brain works that way.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

I think it's just how you feel about the word balance in general. Is that like a word because I don't know, that's such a weird word for me. I don't I don't want to say triggering, but I would that's a good word to describe it.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

I don't know. I don't know if the crew feels that way, but I feel like I tried to give make sure that they have good work life balance and then I'm just off the deep end with it. But uh no, it's better than it used to be. I think I I take I take much more time off now. I have I have a a little a little boy, so I I I play with him a lot. Um and that's like a he's four.

SPEAKER_02 52:13

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

So that's my my the the hey you gotta be present. You know, he will literally like slap you into being like, hey, you gotta be present.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Like have you learned any new um do you guys have like something you share together that seems to be like blossoming like something that's very like are you learning anything with my son?

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Yeah, uh yeah, uh let's see. Well, I mean, because so he'll he's kind of you know, he's growing up coming here. So for him, so it's very I'm not by any means pushing him in the direction of photo things, but it's submerged in hand. He's he's very he's so he's we've been started doing like the little photo walks together. Really?

SPEAKER_01 52:51

Where he'll bring his little camera out and go take pictures and I'll take mine and is it analog for for him too, or is it?

SPEAKER_00 52:58

He just got his he's got his first he's he's in true hoarding tendencies fashion. He he went from having no film cameras to having two in the last in the last like six months.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

So yeah, it's gonna yeah, like two a year. I think that's a good maybe two this year or three next year.

SPEAKER_00 53:21

But it's like a one, two, three, four kind of like a sequential picture thing that you the idea is like you can get like a a frame of somebody, like some sort of movement, like where you you know, one you know, where you can it's like a step progression.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

Is it rapid or it's just like you can take as much time okay up there?

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Yeah, yeah, all in one go. Um so he's been he's been working his way through this first roll of that, and it's been funny to try to get a toddler through the idea of like no the person you have to get some some something doing something movement-wise. Yeah, otherwise it'll just be four of the same picture.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Like a micro expression change or something. Yeah. How many how many frames are there in like one roll?

SPEAKER_00 53:57

Uh well, 35mm, you most cameras would be 36 or 24. So you get a decent number.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

So it's yeah, but it's like four on each. Four in each picture.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

So then it'd be 36 times four bad at math. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Interesting. Yeah, I don't know that it takes.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

50 or something.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

It's so if you're gonna do it. Whatever number you say, I would be like, that's the number for sure. That's totally the number.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I I I usually just ballpark with that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Believe you, whatever number. Yeah. That's one of the skill sets I've gladly.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Yeah, it I think that's one thing that you can get a little too. It's you can be have to be careful with accepting advice from strangers on the internet because everybody is very different.

SPEAKER_02 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

And you know, what might be the appropriate amount of work for you is might not be the appropriate amount of of work for somebody else. And you know, so there there is there's range to that. You know, you can have somebody who their whole life is very much consumed by something, and I don't think that necessarily means that's a bad thing for them. Or you can have somebody who they just want to be out hanging out in the wildflower fields picking flowers and you know, and staring at the sky, and that's how they want to spend their existence. And yeah. I don't think those are necessarily wrong. You just they're just you gotta figure out which direction you're gonna go and kind of the the intention figure out what's appropriate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:21

Yeah, like why are you doing this? I think I think a lot of people could benefit from asking why a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Oh yeah. Yeah, little kids love asking why. Why? No, I it's every other every every question's a why.

SPEAKER_01 55:32

Kids really have it down. Like the mannerisms I think of the child that like it's crying, you know. I think crying is like super, it will keep you very young. Like having a place to like your body cleanses, it salves itself, you know, it has resets your nervous system. And then you play and they learn when they play, and like most of us aren't playing, we're just like making the learning process the most painful that it is, you know, like forcing ourselves into a room and like locking up.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Reading a textbook and then having somebody drone on about the textbook while you read along. Bro, it's not a that's a rough way of learning.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

It's not fun. It's not fun. Unless it's like a book that you really like reading, which is uh not very common, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 56:12

You're not gonna get that out of the out of the group room. You let the let the room be for talking to other people about the thing you just learned about. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:22

How much stupid?

SPEAKER_00 56:23

I don't know. I don't have any deep I don't have any good thoughts on the state of modern education.

Homeschooling, Learning Styles, Authority Balance

SPEAKER_00 56:27

I didn't grow up in it, so I was homeschooled, so I so mine was very my education was very left of normal or you know, off the beaten path is maybe a better way of saying it.

SPEAKER_01 56:37

How was it as far as other homeschooling techniques that you're are you aware of how other people kind of grow up at homeschool? Like does it seem to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

So I know there's a lot of there's a lot of focus on learning styles. Um and that has some like modern pushback now where some people like there's no such thing as learning styles. I I don't know if that's the case, but there's people that say that.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

I viscerally feel like there are definitely definitely.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

I've heard that though, and I'm like, huh, that's interesting. But uh so homeschool, I know and like the like growing up, there was a big focus with like a lot of the kids there, you know, because your parents become very deeply involved in your education for better or for worse when you're doing that. Um and there's a big focus on like what what kind of learning. So if you're auditory, if you're kinesthetic, so you need to touch things to to learn, you need to um um you need to verbalize the thing, um, which is what I kind of found about I was I I need to say it back to myself.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Speak it out loud, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

Um to learn something new. Uh or or just straight up, you know, reading something a text on paper. And like those are, I guess, kind of a I believe the main four. Uh maybe I think there might be three, but I I'm adding a fourth.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Oh no, no, I think there's four.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Like, but I So And I think the the school's normal main line, like kind of the the what is it, the is it the Prussian Empire that came up with the modern education system that we use, I believe. And like the top.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

The depression empire?

SPEAKER_00 58:02

No, no, a Prussian, probably like the okay, both are bad.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Not both are the right words. I think okay. I was like, man, we developed the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

It was to to make uh you know soldiers and factory workers, right? And so it's so you have like the bell and everything, and you have the you know, the really regimented like schedules and stuff like that to get people comfortable working in a in a factory environment. We never really updated that for some reason, despite the fact that most people don't work in factories anymore.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

Uh we're really good at funding our education system, I think, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

We fund it. I don't know who we necessarily spend spend the money well, but we we definitely fund it. I I think that you could think ours is the most expensive in the whole world.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Really?

SPEAKER_00 58:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:40

But it's not going into it, can't possibly be going into because so much has been. So where is it going?

SPEAKER_00 58:46

I don't know, and I'm not an I'm not an expert on such stuff.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Definitely not going to the teachers.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

No, I'm no expert. I'm no explanation on that.

SPEAKER_01 58:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:52

But uh I think as ours is one of the if maybe it might not be the most, but again, don't quote me on any of this. I'm not an expert.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Too late. It's getting yeah, yeah. Fact check.

SPEAKER_00 59:01

You could, I could be wrong, I don't know. But uh a lot of that stuff is very weird. Like, I don't know, that's a that's a whole cost disease is a whole nother conversation.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

But I have a question, and I don't know if you could answer it, so there's no pressure to, but it's I think if if you had an education system that you could like be a part of like building for a kid, like what was something that you think is pivotal that is just not a part of it right now that would really I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

I don't know that I'm the person to answer that question, but uh I think yeah, it's I mean the easy easy wins would just be adding yeah, focusing on how you how different kids learn and grouping them with other kids who learn in similar ways. I feel like that's an easy win because you don't have to spend a lot of money to do that, but I don't I don't know. I don't know what the grand scheme of that is. Um, I know I do always like the the kind of like the Montessori style where you let the kids kind of like teach themselves things as neat, but I don't know how scalable that is, but uh yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

I do you do you have Montessori uh friends or acquaintances?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Oh, I've just read some of the books. Actually, I've never I've I've only just learned about it from that perspective from the outside, not from the inside.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

I think it's really interesting because there's like so many different ways to do Montessori. And like it's like studied in in design systems, actually, because of they were, you know, they took this the principle of like learning in the education system and they made it catered to, yeah, I guess more of the way that children learn. But what's interesting about that system to me, I'm not an expert either, just on my own experience with having grown up with a lot of Montessori kids. I was not a Montessori kid, is there's like a level of compassion that doesn't seem to be available. Like like it seems like a longer road to having like compassion for people. And I wonder.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:50

You think that they are less compassionate or more?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

I would do. I do, and I mean less compassionate levels. Oh, interesting. Yeah, and I wonder I don't know enough enough. And I don't know either. I mean, this is a really it's really just like an experience-based thing, which could have no merit. But like, like I think, and I just think it and I'm not saying they don't have compassion as adults, I just mean as kids, like there there was less because there's like a lot of room that the the way that the system works for the kid to be right about their choices. And sometimes that can really sometimes you're not right.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:19

Sometimes you're just wrong.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

There's no room, and there's not like room for someone else's rightness sometimes, I think. Okay, yeah. And so I think there's a longer path to compassion. And I don't know, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

That could be super useful.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:30

That could be really useful in life because you're not gonna get caught up on other people's worries or hold stuff that's not yours, but also you can be a dick.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

That's true, yeah. Well, I think there's a lot of that with kids. I mean, you you that's I think life is a lot of figuring out what the balance is of respecting authority versus questioning it, and there there is a balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:53

So so maybe that's what you're getting at. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

I maybe it could very much be.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Yeah, there's respecting authority versus questioning it is a is a balance, and you can you can go too far either way, and then you end up with all sorts of bad things on either end of that thing. If you think that nobody else can tell you anything about anything, and I'm the foremost expert about everything, then you know you're you're probably gonna end up injured or hurt at some point and run run right up against the limits of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:17

But yeah, yeah, you'll like learn that lesson.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

But also just blindly accepting, you know, something some authority figure says to you is also not good because then you have bad at hands in that on that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

So it's problematic, yeah. Yeah to not have individual thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:31

Yeah, I think I think just balance is an important thing in life, and I think that probably should be more emphasized than it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah. It's like a hard thing, it's a feeling-based thing. I could I think balance. Like it's you could be very visual because you could be like, we're gonna do this much now, and then this year, or but like you know, someone else's idea of balance might exhaust me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

That's fair. Yeah, I think more what I'm coming from when I say that is just that um maybe that's just uh being okay or comfortable or uh tolerant of others' perspectives is another way of saying that you're uh saying balance, I guess. And like that can be another way, other ways of doing

Time Value And Defending Attention

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

things. And those ways are not necessarily bad just because they're so like I I think about that with like the with work things of like of the like you know, when I the year that we started this, I was like, okay, so I'm gonna work 16 to 18 hours a day, six days a week, and then 12 days a week on Sunday. It's like that's the mo the most opposite of balance you could possibly get, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:40

But it was necessary.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

So it's like so you can like course correct in time. Yeah, yeah, but then we balance it out after that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

No I work like 45, 50 hours a week. And now we now we're at a but but but you needed that, you needed that like wall of like ah going to the just peg the accelerator and see see how fast you can get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Was there like a a burnout or a crash out that happened, or was it more of just knowing that?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

So for that was that was predicated on like when my my uh son was being born, and I was like, okay, I gotta get this off the ground by the time he's born. So I had like a nine-month window of just like, let's go. And then a very hard transition when, okay, baby. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:23

So that was helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

Uh was it more process-based, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

Um, is that nine-month, like really getting the process down of the that was a lot of just like we couldn't afford more employees, and so I had to just do multiple roles because there just wasn't the budget to have more people. So it was just trading my life energy for dollars I didn't have.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:45

Looking back, I should have just gotten a loan. I should have just gotten a loan and paid people with a loan. That would have been way easier.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

But that yeah, I I like that um juxtaposition between starting your business and like not needing a loan and like I think being very I think I I think uh if your idea if you're if you have an idea that you really believe in, I don't think I don't think that is all that scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:06

I think it's if you have an idea you really, really believe in and the core fundamentals are there, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

You mean to not take a loan or to take a loan?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:14

Take a loan. Like I think some people should just take the money. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

You know, I don't that's not a universal rule. I'm not gonna don't blame me if that doesn't work out for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

But I that comes down yeah, don't blame, yeah, don't blame me. But it like I think when it comes down to like nervous system has a lot to to play with that. Because I think you can handle taking a loan at whatever capacity you've taken it at, or you can't handle the fear of like not knowing when you're gonna pay that off, or like the pressure of paying that off.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

And so it's really like one can yoke so you could just go bankrupt and start over. So that is the thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Always an option. Know your options. So I think that yeah, which is a very real option that people should be. That is the thing that people should be. Like a system that very much works and is like, well, you can't pay this yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

Well the business too, you can you can you you also can kinda not that I'm going to do this, creditors, but um but you could.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

Yeah, you could. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

And sometimes your idea just didn't work out and now it's time to try again. But but no, I think there's you know val valuing your life is also a good thing. I think that that more is maybe more the direction I've trying to go with that, which is that yeah, yeah, maybe I wasn't valuing enough of like how much that that eight nine months of my life was actually worth.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:38

Ooh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

Maybe trading some some borrowed dollars for being able to have more of a life that year would have been a wiser move. But these things are all hindsight and most of the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:49

Yeah, but you yeah, you learned that in like time, you know, where you're like that that retrospect.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:54

So I think that's also when you start something real young, you you tend to tend to when you're young you have like lots of time and so you're you're much more you're ripp much more time rich, and so you're much more willing to trade that and then as you get older you try to buy that time back.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

Do you feel do you do you feel that way about your your journey? Is that you have a your relationship with time has changed?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

Yeah, well I've also been learning from people that are older and wiser than me and like how they seeing how they're managing their time and being like, okay, all right, maybe maybe I don't need to be doing every possible task, you know. Maybe it needs the maybe I need to have the humility to accept that I I'm not gonna be the best at at doing every specific thing and I need to let just and I need to just outsource as much as I possibly can for to other great people around me that can that can do stuff with me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

Have you had a fear of time at any moment?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Like Yeah, I think it for me that would come out come out as being like fear of wasting time.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:56

So I think uh I don't know, some you can work this way, but I think for me I'm very I get very upset at the idea of of that I'm wasting the amount of time that I do have in whatever way that isn't up being. Um but then it doesn't always correlate to action. So you'll get times where you'll be really you'll you'll sit there scrolling Instagram or whatever your preferred social media is, and you'll be very like in the back of your head stressed about how much time I'm wasting. Yeah. But you'll still keep doing it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

You'll still sit there and keep, you'll be an hour, uh man, now I'm an hour deep. Yeah, I'm an hour, ooh, and I'm an hour and ten minutes deep.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

This is so stressful and frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

Yeah, a check-in. There is a there's always a moment of like looking for something too. There's a moment where I'm like, what are you starting, what are you searching for? And I'm like, it's just a staggering feeling sometimes. Yeah. I am I think I've been far more kind to myself recently for the amount of like screen time that I have uh subjected myself to because well, I think sometimes when you're really going after big stuff and you are checking the boxes and you feel good about like what you're doing, there is a little there is a room to just be like, yeah, this is this is a filthy quality that I have right now that I'm okay with because it makes me feel better. And I think when you're uncomfortable or you're learning or you're expanding, you're allowed to fucking feel better about something, you know, little things. And they don't have to be didn't have to be like your phone addiction.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:23

It can just be yeah, I think I would I would highly encourage people to pick almost any any other any other uh coping reset mechanism other than phone addiction.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

But why?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:35

Oh man, I don't think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

There's quite a bit of inspiration, I think that can be a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

Yeah, the exposure to the the the wiles of the internet is rough though. It just also wrecks your attention span. Yeah. And I feel like uh people do not do enough to defend their attention span, is my my counterpoint to that. Somebody who has a bad attention span. If you have a good attention span, do everything you can to preserve it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:57

I think it's called cheap dopamine when you're you're going for the next scroll. It's like a cheap ping, and it's not as it's not as like chemically satisfying to break.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:05

Or talk to a real talk to a person that you can speak to in real life, or call a friend, or do yeah, some task if you can. I mean, I say this as somebody who doesn't manage his time well with us to to some degree, but there's there's again balance. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:20

Yeah, it is balance, it is balance. But also having awareness, I think, is very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Yeah. So like maybe maybe an hour is okay, but maybe uh, you know, hour or two and a half, you go, okay, I need to take a chill, chill this out.