10. Will Nicoll, CIO, RLAM on why trust, transparency, and disciplined decision-making define the modern CIO

In this episode of The CIO Chair Podcast, we sit down with Will Nicoll, chief investment officer at Royal London Asset Management, for a wide-ranging conversation on investment leadership, team building, and navigating uncertainty in today's markets.

Drawing on decades of experience across asset management and institutional investing, Will shares why trust is the foundation of every successful investment organisation. He explains how CIOs can build high-performing teams, encourage constructive disagreement, and create an environment where people are motivated by purpose rather than hierarchy. His approach to leadership is rooted in transparency, honesty, and putting clients' interests first.

The conversation also explores some of the most challenging moments of Will's career, including lessons learned during the Global Financial Crisis, the dangers of making decisions based on what feels "normal," and why patience is often one of the most underrated skills in investing. Will discusses the opportunities and challenges facing UK investors, the role of infrastructure in supporting economic growth, and how long-term investors should think about market cycles and portfolio resilience.

Alongside his investment insights, Will offers thoughtful reflections on hiring, career development, and the importance of helping people find roles where they can thrive. His leadership philosophy is refreshingly simple: great teams are built on trust, great advice is clear and unbiased, and successful organisations are those that continue serving their clients long after today's leaders have moved on.

https://www.cioinvestmentclub.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/cio-investment-club/posts/?feedView=all

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the CIO Chair, a collaboration between the CIO Investment Club and Pension Insurance Corporation, hosted by me, Sean Thompson. And me, Hart Edge Singh. The CIO Chair's guest today is Will Nickel, the Chief Investment Officer at Royal London Asset Management. Will joined Royal London Asset Management in October 2023 and became CIO in September 2025, having formerly been head of fixed income and private assets. Previously, Will was at MG Investment Management for 19 years, latterly as CIO, Private and Alternative Assets, responsible for managing global teams investing in private debt, property, and private equity, as well as other businesses. Will has also worked at Henderson Global Investors, Casanovan Co., and the Civil Service. Welcome to the CIO chair, Will. It is a pleasure to have you here. And as I always say to our guests, I hope you are sitting comfortably.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Sean, thank you very much for inviting me. It's a delight to be here, and I'm sitting as comfortably as I can. So looking forward to it. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Fantastic. So thanks, Will. If we could start at the very beginning and to have a look at your education and early career, I'd like to ask the question: did you always plan to be in investments?

SPEAKER_03 1:28

No, I planned the opposite. I so I actually did medicine at university and realized that I was going to be a pretty awful doctor. And so when I left university, I walked into the worst job market. I I think by the start of the 90s was about as bad as it got. And so I joined the civil service because the civil service were hiring and I needed a job. And so after I'd done that for about two and a half years, I realized that all my animosity, and it was that strong, all my animosity towards the city that I'd had at university had probably better go. And I probably should go and work where I I think I could frankly do better. So so I then applied to the city and 60 or so applications later, I I got a job at Casno. And what was your first role? And uh was that a natural fit? Well, my first role was as a trainee bond fund manager, which was I can't pretend it was a natural fit because I can't pretend that I really understood what I was getting into. Um so to to suggest that that since the age of 10 I knew what I was going to be doing, that's not true. And also to suggest that in my early 20s when I joined the city, that I knew exactly where I wanted to go, that equally isn't true. So I had two jobs that I chose between one was on a syndicate desk at a at a you know Swiss banking corporation that's now gone, and and one was at Kasnov as a as a junior bond fund manager, um, which looking back on it, clearly are about as different as you can get in the debt markets. But at the time, I didn't think it was that odd that I'd been offered two roles that were quite so different, and clearly were two very different parts of my character.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

That's fantastic. And and so the road to CIO from there, what did that look like? And were there any lucky breaks you'd like to draw out uh along the way?

SPEAKER_03 3:14

I think there are always loads of lucky breaks. I think I think that you to pretend that everything is straight up, I think is well, I'm sorry, that's not true. I am sure there are people who can do that, but but that certainly wasn't the case with me. I I I was a Casno for six, seven years. I then joined Henderson and was lucky to hit um a point when structured credit just started. So I was involved with with probably I think the second or third CLO in in Europe at the time. Uh and so got some some some interesting um expertise there and interesting uh exposure, and then moved from there to M and G, but not on a sideways move, actually on a slightly down move. I was I was head of European credit at Henderson and it was a slightly more junior role at M and G. But but what it did do is it allowed me to use the structured credit expertise and my fund management in standard assets, standard bonds, and at the same time the sort of development that I always enjoyed doing. So I was able to put those together in a sort of portfolio job. And and that was lucky because you know, to find to find a company that I think is very, very strong in bonds. I mean M and G has always been very, very strong in in the debt markets, and and to be allowed to do a variety of roles at the same time and then choose which path you go on, I think that's lucky. Or maybe I was just cheeky in in asking. I'm not quite sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

That's brilliant. And and I guess that a CIO brings sort of lots of different skills, and often, you know, people who have got to this position of, you know, lots of varied uh types of roles. Are there any sort of you know, different parts of your career that have helped, let's say, create a CIO type profile that you are today?

SPEAKER_03 4:53

I honestly think that there's no such thing as bad experience, and I always have done. I you know, you can do some things that you really dislike, but they still teach you things. Uh so I was a really very bad civil servant. I I wanted things to happen. I wanted to do things, but it was extremely useful to do that because that teaches you, firstly, that you know you need to be patient. And and secondly, the other thing the civil service teaches you very, very clearly is that you can come up with the best ideas in the world. And if a minister turns up the next day and says, no, no, we're gonna do something completely different, you don't argue. You just have to say that's fine. And so it teaches you a certain amount of humility that you may think you're right, but that's frankly doesn't matter. And so uh oddly, I'd say they were extremely useful experiences to have early in my career, so you don't get carried away, so you so you spend a lot of time listening. Because I I would say that that one of the things that that you have to do is you have to listen. You have to spend a lot of time listening because the idea is you as you get more senior in an organization, the idea that you can do everyone's job as well as them clearly is a is a nonsense. And so you you have to be able to listen, you have to be able to trust, and and therefore you have to hone those skills to know who you can trust, who understands, and find out what what they are thinking and what is driving their behaviour and their thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

What part of the civil service were you actually working for?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Oh, I was in education, because at the time education was the biggest policy thing. So this was uh when John Major had been elected, so it was quite a depressed civil service um because th they'd assumed that the Labour would get in. But there was a lot of policy happening in education, so I spent most of my time there. Which we which again it I don't think it it's odd. It doesn't really matter in the civil service where you are, because it's just a very different way of looking at the levers of power. And and having some idea about how that works is, I think, again, quite useful in grounding you in terms of what you can do and what you can't do. And and also that given the other way around, I mean, so during the financial crisis, spent quite a lot of time with the Treasury trying to help them with what they could do. And and again, that little bit of knowledge about where things were going meant that that me and a couple of colleagues were able to help. I think we actually were able to help in that circumstance, which again was a great experience.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So before we go into your investing style and decision making, I thought it was worth um just drawing attention to the fact that Royal London is owned by clients. And I just wanted to understand what that means in practice and does it impact the way the institution works? It means my life is much, much simpler, is the answer.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

It it means that that I have I just have to think about the clients. It's obvious and it's trite in some ways, but if you think about asset growth and all the other things that drive a listed asset manager, so as a listed asset manager, you are normally looking at how do I grow assets as fast as possible. I need to grow revenues, I've got expectations all over me, and they are an annual or six-monthly or even three-monthly cycle. So I I need to be doing things in that in that order. And so that makes long-term thinking really quite difficult. Because if you're doing something that you know isn't really going to work till three, four, five years, um, but you don't know whether it's gonna be three years or five years, then that's very difficult to put a put a plan around it that is that is absolutely solid. And and if you've got shareholders looking at every single time you come out with a plan, then that becomes difficult. As a mutual, then you do have the the luxury of a bit more time because we've been around for a hundred plus years, uh long one actually. Um and so the the interest in the board is to make sure that we continue to be able to look after our clients and and and help their financial future for for another hundred, another hundred and fifty years. So so in that way, I can I can take a very long view, and that even comes down to discussions about you know who runs funds. I was having a discussion with a client yesterday, and we were discussing, you know, who's gonna be doing it in 10 years or in 20 years. And that that's a very different way of doing it than having to react to, well, who's gonna be doing it next six months or year or various other things, because you you have got that timeline. That's the big difference.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Is there anything that that that is made more difficult by the fact that it doesn't have shareholders?

SPEAKER_03 9:14

The risk is always that if you're in an environment that that has got the luxury of time, then you that you use the time. So, you know, you have to continue to carry on driving yourself. But but that's not difficult in that way. So I think the risk is always there. As long as you know the risk is there, then then I I think that's fine. Um, but there's very few downsides. There really aren't, because asset management, investment management is not something that works on an annual cycle. And and it doesn't naturally fit there. Equally, the returns are volatile, they are cyclical. So so the idea of people wanting a share that you know goes up every year, that increases dividend every year, that's really very difficult to do in an asset management world when you've got markets flying around the place. So having long-term ownership with a you know sensible board that can see through these things, I think, is is really vital.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

So, how would you overall describe your investment style? And are there any decision raisers that you use to sort of help put a framework around that?

SPEAKER_03 10:14

The one of the lovely things about being a CIO is you is you can make sure that you've got lots and lots of fund managers who are doing superb jobs in each of their markets. So I don't spend my time, I have to say, walking around the various teams saying I wouldn't do that if I were you, because that's not my job here. My job is to make sure that we've got the right teams together and the right capabilities and the and the right right views. I've always been a long-term investor. I mean, uh so so my investment style has always been long-term. I I've generally always ended up in in the bits of the market that have been changing most. I mean, that's why I ended up I ended up doing the private assets job in my previous firm because of that and came here to build the same thing, but because that that's fast moving, that's changing, and I think you can make a difference and you can you can mold it and and develop it in some ways. Um so but equally, it's it you've got to have quite a long-term view. You know, it I I'm I'm not a day trader, never have been. And so the the idea that you're flicking things in and out in the market in that way is not the way that I've always looked at things. I've always looked at things as as being a slower but but more fundamental shift in markets uh is is the bit that I find most interesting.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

And do you think that an investment style um should change in response to the market environment? Or do you think there are some sort of evergreen um ways to sort of invest? And and how do you communicate that with the people that you manage money for?

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Well, I I think I'd sorry there are always some non-negotiables. I mean, so Royal London, we're very strong on responsible investment. Responsible investment is and sustainable investment is is not particularly fashionable at the moment. That that doesn't mean that you change the way you look at things. I mean that that's that's part of what we do, that's part of the culture here. So if anything, we we end up doubling down on that because we think that becomes more important as other people think it is less important. So I think there are various parts where you absolutely don't negotiate. Equally, the markets change all the time. I mean, you know, you're looking at uh at the growth of private markets, you're looking at the public markets at the moment. I mean, if somebody had said, you know, ten years ago, well, you know, maybe maybe you had to get it before the dot-com boom, uh, somebody talked about SpaceX, then then that would that would have seemed extraordinary. So I I think that you you have to be able to react to markets, you have to be able to react to conditions, but equally you you need to have some very firm guidelines on on uh on how you behave. Because otherwise it's very difficult for investors. I mean, I I I I think you know, if you're an investor, you have certain expectations, and and our job as asset managers is should be pretty simple. You know, we should be giving people what they want and what they expect, and therefore flicking around the place and changing things a lot really doesn't fit in with that.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

What's the makeup of your your client base? And is it is it predominantly or all UK base?

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Yeah, it's almost I mean it it's it's predominantly UK. I mean, we've got a very strong UK franchise and an extremely strong franchise in UK wealth. I mean that that's very strong indeed. Um we are one of the things that we're looking at is to take that strong core and and expand it more overseas. So there clearly there are some parts of the of the markets which are already global, already European. So so we we run a series of very successful global equity funds, for example. So we're already around the place, but but our distribution is growing, so we are looking at at growing more distribution in in continental Europe and and a few other countries. And similarly, we will continue to diversify our assets, um the funds that we offer in the same way to make sure that they're appropriate. And and I think that that works both ways. I mean, you can see the UK market you know is looking for more global product, has been, you know, that that's a long-term trend. I don't think that's going to change. So it's going with our UK client base to some extent, but equally offering some things that I think have been very attractive to our UK clients for years and taking some of those across to other other client bases.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

And and you mentioned about obviously responsible investing um being quite key to the way in which Royal London invests their their monies. That's because I suspect because it's very much predominantly UK client focus. But when you go across the pond, do you think that's going to change in in ways in which you might have to think about the way in you you invest overseas monies? And also how does that affect your investment style in terms of how you might um allocate to different parts of the asset classes you manage?

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yeah, I mean, I think uh you know, that we talked before about the advantages and disadvantages of mutuality. One of the advantages or disadvantages is that we're not going to do this overnight.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

Um, so so it it this is a slow build. So I I don't expect to suddenly uh have a large franchise sitting in the US and and having to change my investment style. Um so we will grow into into I I think that the most obvious thing is you grow into continental Europe, uh, and and we clearly have distribution agreements, etc., there already. And then, you know, each country has its own separate ideas, views, and slightly unusual uh ways of investing that that you learn and you get to understand. And and if you think about it, the world is moving all the time and the people are moving through it. So so there's a lot of expertise sitting in the building who are very used to talking to more people outside the UK. So I don't think that's going to be a surprise. But the answer is yes, I can see that we might change, but it won't be fast if we did.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

So given that you've been a pioneer of innovation, so you know, you were early in the structured credit evolution, in the private credit evolution. What do you see that's that's sort of happening next in fixed income? Um, I I ask that because the the market return can be accessed fairly cheaply. And it's almost like how do asset managers uh add value to clients in this environment?

SPEAKER_03 16:10

Yeah, I think I I honestly think that's that's almost any question at the moment for an asset manager is why should people pay you? And the answer is access is in the public markets, you should get paid for, and clearly is that's worthless. Um, I think uh when we come back to responsible investing, I mean I think we've got a very strong sustainability sustainable franchise, and I think that's a belief system which has been decades in the making. And I I think that you can, you know, you you are offering something to people, which I think is very hard to replicate with that. And similarly, you need to offer some uh or some very some exceptional returns. I mean, so so again, you you have some funds that are that are doing very well. In the public markets, you really have to be offering either very cheap, low volatile sort of products, or or more volatile but it but extremely high return, or some sort of belief system that really is difficult to replicate. And and as AI comes through, those niches may get smaller. Okay. So therefore you've then got the the the private assets, and and the private assets continue to grow. Uh and part of that is from diversification, and part of that is because you can still add value. And it's not a way of adding value in in terms of market, but you you can definitely add value by doing uh bespoke good deals. They're hard work, but and and again, people will pay for that. And and and it quite rationally, on the basis that you're offering people diversification or extra return or something that that requires a lot of work. And I see AI helping with that, but but I don't see that it it's gonna have quite the same effect as it might do on some of the public markets, simply because the information is not so available and and there's a little bit more personality involved in in actually getting some of those deals.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

And and so the private markets have obviously increased significantly in size, you know, over your uh tenure. Um, what do you think is happening in private markets right now? Um, you know, you you have people who are very keen to access that sort of you know unique origination, but also there's more discussion around transparency and and actual asset quality.

SPEAKER_03 18:14

The same thing's happening, happening as has always happened. You're you're watching markets commoditize. And so you you watch, you know, what what was exciting 10 years ago isn't now. What was difficult to access becomes commoditized. And and I agree, I mean, things like pricing transparency w will come through. Uh and if you think about um blockchain and putting assets onto a blockchain, that that will, and and I and I've always been early on that. I've and I was saying that it would do, you know, nine years ago, it it'll definitely come through in the next five, and I was wrong. But but it will, and and when everybody's got a wallet and can therefore do something with those assets, then you you get a very different set of transparency and a very different set of transferability, which is the problem really with with private assets. And that's a very different world. So a world where every asset is on a blockchain and and you have AI enabling you to look at thousands of assets, then that's quite an interesting world. I can't pretend that I I I see exactly how it works yet, but you're going to end up with something where people are going to be able to access assets and asset types in a way they couldn't dream of at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Why why do you think it's been so slow coming together blockchain, investing in that way? Because as you say, it's been spoken about for a long time now. And I I, like you, would have thought that it would have been out there already and people would have been investing in it quite a lot, but obviously not at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

I I agree. I it it I think I because I've I've thought of exactly the same question because when the first public bonds were were issued in in digital format, the difficulty is they're quite painful. People didn't didn't have a wallet. It's that simple, really. I mean, you know, people don't have anywhere to put it. And and so I think you need to have that happening. And and and as soon as that happens, then then I think uh I think it jumps quite quickly because it's clearly cheaper to to issue digital, and when you've got that sort of cost advantage, that that will make a difference. But uh I uh there's no there's no intellectual barriers anymore in previous life. We have put assets on the blockchain, it's gone all through the system, all through the back office, all through the custodians. Everything has has has worked in that way. And and I have to say, first time I did did one of those, I sat back and thought, well, that's that done. You know, everything will now fix itself in the next five years. And and it just didn't. And and I've come to the conclusion, it's it's actually because nobody's got a wallet. No one's got the right place to put it into. And and and at some point that breaks in the same way, at some point it goes from the odd person's got a smartphone to everybody has a smartphone, and that'll accelerate dramatically. And that's gonna have some very interesting effects on on fund management and asset management.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

So we're just gonna slightly move now to you know forming good relationships with clients and what what that actually looks like in practice. So, what does a good asset manager and client relationship look like from an asset manager perspective?

SPEAKER_03 21:18

Oh, really, really simple. It trust. It's nothing more than that. When when a client truly believes that you are just got their interests at heart and nothing else, um, and and everyone's trained to be cynical, so it takes a while to get through there, but when you get to that stage, then you can do some remarkable things because then it becomes very simple in terms of what what do you actually need? I think this is the answer. And and everybody understands that that's what you truly believe, not what you've got to sell. And then you can build things together. Because, you know, I can't pretend that I know a client's mind better than them. Uh and and similarly, they will probably not know exactly what is available and what what makes sense. And the disconnect is always a a client saying, I want this. And I'll say, yeah, I don't uh I I'm surprised you do if we're being polite or or that feels like a bad idea if we if we if we're being less polite, but but doing that in in a way that that is constructive. And and similarly, I mean most most, yeah, I won't say all you know, possibly all, uh of the good ideas come from clients. Because when a client says, I really want something that does this, this, and this, I can't find any assets to work like that, then then they set you off on the right trail. And then you can go back and say, Right, fine, this is the answer, and then then you realise that other clients might want that as well. So, you know, that sort of um, you know, nice reciprocity is really that's what you're looking for. And it's quite and it is quite hard and and it takes a while, and uh, but when you've got it, you want to keep that forever.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

How do you deal with situations where what the client is asking for is something that you think isn't a bad idea, but they're set on what they're asking for.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

If I don't think it's a good idea, then I say I can't really help you. I mean the honesty is the only way to do it because it it otherwise, and again it comes back to time frames. If I've got a time frame that says I need to earn some money in the next three months from a you know fees or something, then then I might have a different view. If if I've got a view that says the next three months doesn't really matter, it's the next five, ten years, then then doing something for a client that I think is a bad idea is not sensible. I mean, I you know, I'm right at the start of my career. I remember um I joined, I went to which company, but I joined one of them, and and my first job was to kill something. And and you had a client who was desperate to go and do something. And and and it was an awful idea. And I saw them about five years later and and said, Did did you do that deal? And I and they said yes. And I said, Did you lose all your money? And they said yes. And and and you know, and that that's that's fine, and I'm very pleased that we weren't the people who did that. Uh and and Simon, you got you can have a much better conversation with them afterwards, and then then they they can come back as a client. So it's just about time frame and it's old fashioned, but you you know, the city changes very quickly, and you do just have your reputation. And so so the the idea that you can take on stuff and and and do stuff badly is is not something that lasts very long. You we've all seen groups that have oversold and they tend to burn, tend to crash and burn.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

It's interesting because um very similar. I I worked um once upon an asset manager and um they tried to get me to sell hedge funds to my insurance clients probably 18 years ago. Yeah. And I have to say, I I had to say to them, I'm not gonna do that. I'm sorry, but my my my insurance clients are not gonna be happy if I'm going in there trying to sell them hedge funds.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

And you had to just say, no, it's not gonna happen. Um so it no, it's interesting. I I I think sometimes it doesn't always happen, unfortunately. But uh yeah, I mean I agree, you you need to have that trust.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

No, I I get it, and it can come at at a certain amount of cost. You know, none none of these things are free. And and I and I have been in conversations where where I've said, you know, unfortunately, I don't think we can do this, you know, although it would be helpful in terms of the bottom line, because I don't think it's the right thing for the client. And that can be difficult, either because you've got people who aren't that close to the clients going, I don't know what why why would you not do it, sort of thing. Um, and and similarly people with different time frames. So you so you have to be firm with that. But again, that comes back to the discussion when you're talking about what's your style. I mean, there the you know there are certain things that are non-negotiable and you and you need to just get clear about what those are, and and then that enables you to to be able to work with disparate teams. I mean, I I've always thought that the the the times when you know the teams are working well is when they're not asking you anything because they know what you're gonna say anyway. You know, and I've not been here quite long enough yet. But that you know, the that that's when I feel comforted on the basis that people say, we wanted to ask you advice on this, but we knew we were gonna say. And and and that's fine. And that and and that doesn't worry me at all because that that means we're being consistent and clear.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I guess sort of setting the relationship out in the in the right way is obviously a very important thing. Um, and then other than in good performance, like how can an asset manager sort of keep that relationship strong? What in what other ways can they add value?

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Offering unbiased, clear advice is always worth it. And not messing people about. Sorry, Sean, come back to you know, you know, you're trying to sell hedge funds to insurance companies that don't want them. I mean, that that's messing them about. You just you just don't need that. And so you know, again, if you think of it, it it's always you've always got to be in their shoes and and see how you can help them, how you can do things that that that aren't gonna get in their way. And if you and if something is gonna happen, if if you're gonna ask them something which which is gonna be inconvenient for them, then be honest, be straight, straightforward with it and say, I'm sorry, we're gonna do this and this and this. I know that doesn't exactly suit, but here's the reasons why. Because, you know, again, you are you are doing a service for them, so it's got to be in their best interest for some reason, and and you've just got to be clear and transparent and open. Yeah, no, absolutely totally agree.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Um, so just thinking about um UK investing and just sort of looking at from your perspective, I mean what is your approach to investing in the UK? Um, and and what areas are you seeing where perhaps there's strong value um in terms of uh the investments that you're making?

SPEAKER_03 27:25

Well, I normally you just have to look for I mean, so we we've bought a UK infrastructure business, um Dalmore, and and part of the reason for that is is because UK infrastructure is is restarting, but but that's that's a difficult market at the moment. I mean there's not there's not huge numbers of big infrastructure projects being done in the UK. Um but but they're coming through. And and therefore that is going to offer great value. I think I think that's gonna be a very interesting um asset class. Uh and and there are always bits happening. You know, then there's always there's always stuff in every market. Um I and I think that as you look at a a lot of what I mean, you know, and the government has always been the same. You know, there's always been this focus on how do we get money into either early startups, which has been solved to some extent, but but equally into pre-IPO type ideas. I mean, I think that that's you know, there is some money there. But equally, you've still got a lot of the bank debt and a lot of uh bank finance you know coming out. So if you're looking about how do you help the UK economy, you probably help it through infrastructure. And and that's the way we think about it, you know, you probably help it through infrastructure, you probably help it by you know make meaning that the banks become more efficient by you know removing some some bits of the balance sheet they don't particularly want. And then you're looking at how do you make sure the equity market is vibrant? And I think those those things will all would all help dramatically. Not easy.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Talking to others that on the CIO chair, the the the idea of the government trying to push people towards investing in the UK more. I mean, d do you see that there's just not enough incentives to do so? And maybe also, whilst you might have invested in parts of the infrastructure sector, um, do you think there's enough opportunities for pension schemes, insurance firms, charities, trust foundations to be investing in the UK and feel that they're incentivized to do so?

SPEAKER_03 29:28

I I I don't think we're making it very easy. So I are are there enough things, yes, I think there are enough things to do, but we're we're not making it easy. And there's always, you know, some policies that take a while to come through and and and roast it. So so you know, the the position will will change. But you know, if you look at it the other way, uh are we making it very easier for people to invest in UK infrastructure? Probably not. I mean, I'm not saying that any other country is doing any better. I mean that that that I don't think we we that people generally do that. Um I I I think that if you think about the tax system, the tax system has has some very strong incentives to save and some very strong incentives to go and go and you know for early stage investing, for example. So so I think in that way, you know, there are some very strong incentives. So w we are slightly I I don't know whether we we we don't we suffer a little bit from the fact that we are a very open economy, our financial markets are very well developed, and therefore it's quite natural for people to look outside the UK and go go more globally. And and that's not something that that's the case in some other countries. And and as you know, other countries have much more significant rules about investing within the country linked to taxes. And but part of me, I have to say, looks at that and says, if you're gonna get a tax break, then then that that is a reasonable thing to do. I fully understand the other argument that says, but wait a second, we need to get the highest return for our investors. But but again, it's transparency that's important here. The the understanding that says if you want to invest in US tech companies, then clearly you're gonna have to be outside the UK. But i if if there were tax breaks that were linked only to UK assets, then then that would would change it slightly. Now, I mean all of these things are market distorting, so you know, not that attractive really when it when you think about long term. But but I mean that that's what happens in other countries. And as I say, we we benefit a lot, I think, from having a very strong financial sector in the UK, which I think does help everybody, but I think that that probably means we're much more global looking and and seeking than than than other countries have been.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

So so at the start, you said one of the key parts of your role is is really sort of building teams and and making sure that you know they're they're clear that there's leadership there. So if I if I could ask uh the a quick, a fairly broad question. So what does a great team look like?

SPEAKER_03 31:51

Great investment teams, normally normally not that big. Uh normally not that big, knows exactly what they're doing and has uh absolute trust in each other. But I mean I think you can almost say that about any team. I mean, you know, teams work when there's complete trust with other. I mean, the team building exercises are there to build trust for the for for a very good reason. That that if you absolutely believe that other people not only are are acting in a way that you you you understand, and they're not gonna surprise you, and you you're all acting together and you've all got each other's backs, then then that that's the sort of minimum you need. Because the problem with investing is you're going to get it wrong at some point. And and so therefore the best investment teams uh tend to have worked together for quite a long time because they've been through some pretty nasty bits and and they understand when it's time to be relaxed and when it's time to be happy and and they can enjoy the good bits. Do you see some teams that have either been forged in very difficult circumstances and they tend to be very good, but they tend to be a bit too pessimistic forever. Or or you you have the ones who who've been put together when when everything was great and find it very hard when when you suddenly hit a hit a crash. But ideally you want somebody who's been through both and and got to the other side. So i it's it's it's an odd thing. I think you do just tend to get better in investment management as you get older. I think experience does help and and it you know historically it's helped a lot. I'll now find out that AI is going to change everything, and I was completely wrong about that, but I don't I I I think that's the way it works.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

And obviously people are gonna have differing opinions. So what does good disagreement look like?

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Oh, good disagreement is any disagreement that's polite. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

I I I love I love this question because it's quite a a strange one to ask, isn't it? What does good disagreement look like?

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Yeah, I I know, but I there's no so there's no sorry, and in the same way there's no such thing as bad experience. I mean, you know, you you learn from everything the that that comes through. There's there's no such thing as a bad disagreement as long as it comes from the right place. I mean, if it becomes impolite or or or if it is is um well again, it all comes down to be, you know, if it's if it's wantonly destructive. I mean, that's impolite.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

So I think it I think it is that simple. And and then clearly with with that environment, you need to make sure you hire the right people. So what what do you over-index on in hiring that other people might overlook?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Um I only ask them one question. I asked them why they come to work. And what's the answer you're looking for? I'm not looking for any answer, I'm looking for the truth. I'm actually looking to to to find out why really why I mean, you know, sorry, there's the obvious thing that of of you'd like to be able to eat, but uh honestly, the the answers vary all the way through from people saying, No, I I work because I want to be rich. And you go, okay, fine, that's all right. You may suit some jobs, you won't suit others. But uh but that's fine. I don't as long as he's honest, then there's no problem. And and other people are there just for the curiosity, other people and and and that's but as long as you know people's motivation, that then you can do something with them, then there's some way you can put them. If you don't know what they're trying to do, then then it's very difficult indeed. And that that's how it how it's hard to build a team when you when you find somebody who you know if somebody is pretending that you know they truly love this asset class, having a great time. And actually, they don't really love the asset class. They they they'd rather be doing something different, but but they don't want to say that because they want to get paid in a certain way. And uh you just need to have again, you need to have the honest conversation that says, look, if that's what you need and you're really good at that, then let's work out how that works. Not not let's make you unhappy and put you in a in a job that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

So, Will, what's um what's been the most difficult investment decision that you've made and and what did you learn from it?

SPEAKER_03 35:32

I think there were some things around the financial crisis which were were exciting. Bad decisions are going back into markets that are still falling. So, so you you know, w when when something is looking so cheap, you can't imagine that it can get any cheaper, and you suddenly find out it can get a lot cheaper, then that that that's quite exciting. And and so I I I've seen I've seen funds go down to their you know principal protected level, you know, from from and again the clients okay. I mean what not an exciting investment, but but they got their capital back, but from a position where they would have hoped that it was sensible returns and and everyone ends up being something little a little bit more boring. But it's the speed of those things, which I think uh uh is is is the stuff that I remember about the financial crisis and about the the decisions you're making there, is that I don't think anyone believed that markets would move that quickly and and so often that quickly over that, you know, 18 months, two years. And and so that that's when you see bad decision making. That's that's when I've made some bad decisions simply because you're so so used to what you think is normal and it and it's hard to break away from that.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

And it's also a difficult time to be able to or have to explain it to the client who might be wanting to get out as quickly as possible, whereas you might be saying, hold on a second. How have you acted upon that?

SPEAKER_03 36:56

No, but that comes down to trust again. I mean, so I and and again, through the financial cost, I've had clients where they've said to me, I should do this, nice. I think that's a really bad idea, you should do the opposite. And and and half the clients have said, Well, I don't really care what you think. I'm gonna do it. And and and the other half go, okay, fine, we'll do it. And and and in that case, I mean that particular one, I was I was right. But but that's all you can do is you can offer your advice. It it it is it is the client's money. And and if they want to decide that they want to take that away, then then that's fine. That that's their prerogative. But but all you can do is offer unbiased, sensible, reasoned advice and hope that you're helping.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

So looking back over your your career, and if you were sort of to start off um again, what would you go back and and tell your younger self?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Um, there's so many different pieces of advice you could give on there. I would probably tell I tell my younger self to be more patient. And that's what I tell my younger self. Don't worry about it's all fine. And I'd only say that because I've given that piece of advice to so many other people over the years. That that it it it must be the right one because everybody at some points is frustrated and and and saying, Why is it not happening fast? And and and actually occasionally taking a bit of time is is is actually what it needs.

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Yeah, I'm trying to sell a house at the moment, and uh everyone's telling me, just be patient. Just be patient. There's nothing well, there's nothing you can do about it. There's nothing.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

You can't solve the problem, so you're just causing pain yourself. And and and it and it sounds so simple, but it's it's hard to do. You know, the the bit about you know, do things that are within your control, but but don't worry about the others, sounds sounds so easy, but it's very hard to do.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

So so is there is there a a book, uh, newspaper or podcast that you would recommend to professional investors for high quality insight, other than the you know, the the famous ones out there?

SPEAKER_03 38:49

I think at the moment, given that everybody is quite so happy, then then now now's the time to r to reread you know Gal Braith and various other people. Uh you know, in the about the Great Crash and other things. That that's that's where I would go. Because we did um I I took my team once on a on a course on how to deal with uh aggressive and unhappy investors. And and they were like, well, we haven't had any of those for a decade. And I said, No, that's exactly the reason why you do it now. You don't because none of you, none of you have met anybody who's been unhappy for ten years. That's not a good thing. You need you, you know, what what if somebody is unhappy with you, you're not gonna know how to react. And and and I feel that the markets have been going one way for quite a long time. And and although the Trump, the you know, tantrums and various other bits have have have given us a a brief shock, nobody's really had that sort of grinding unpleasantness for a long time. And and I'm not saying it's happening tomorrow, I just think that that everybody needs to remember that it does happen and and and to have have a plan for when it does.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Oh yeah, that's that's fantastic advice. So is there a particular uh Gal Graith uh Oh, the great cra the great crash works on it, isn't it? Um and and I know Sean, this is your favorite question. So, Will, what would you like your legacy as the CIO to be?

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Oh, well, here it's really simple because you just want the business to carry on doing what it's doing. You've got uh you know millions of members, you know, and you're looking after a huge number of pensions. And and so therefore the the legacy is that it continued and it worked and and it and it's well set up for the future. That that's that's legacy. It's not it's not clever. You don't you don't have to reinvent the world, you just have to make sure that it's still going in 50, 100 years, and it's still helping people with their pensions and it's still doing what it said it was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Brilliant, brilliant. So um before we go to the quick fire questions, uh Will, I was gonna actually ask Hartaj um a question because I know that he and and you have uh professionally crossed paths um in the past. And I believe, Will, you gave him some queer advice at the time. Um so Hartaj, take us back to that moment. What was the advice and how has it played out since?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Well, we we'll have to cast our minds back to 2013. After I had sort of been in the the banking world, I had sort of you know long hoped for a move to the buy side. I had a an offer in hand, but at the same time I'd sort of have been you know looking at other roles and uh had a a management consultant role as well. Um, and so I I felt I felt I needed some needed some advice. And and it's actually, you know, Will is obviously very senior now. He was very senior then as well, but was very approachable. So I asked him if he would you know give me some time to to to help me talk it through. I don't remember the exact words or how I framed the question, but I do remember very clearly that he said, What are you gonna regret more not doing in 10 years' time? And and how does that gel with what you really, really are passionate about? And all I wanted to say, Will, is it was a fantastic way of framing it. I'm delighted that I spoke to you. It's worked out well, I'd like to think. Uh my uh my organization might think differently. Uh but I just wanted to thank you for that. You were extremely approachable, and I really appreciate that generosity.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

No, no, absolutely pleasure. But I mean I again I think that if you think about asset management, it's about people, it's only about the people. And you you have to be you have to be in the right job. You know, and then if you're in the right job, everything's quite nice. If you're in the wrong job, it's appalling. And and and and so it it's you know, that that I've always felt that's a very big part of any any management role is to make sure that that as best as you can you get people into the right things. And if we talk about things, I mean, you know, generally the things that I tend to regret is is when you find that that people weren't happy in the role and I hadn't noticed. Those are the things that that upset me when for some reason the organization hasn't hasn't managed to do the right thing. And and it happens, of course it does, but try not to. Good, I'm telling I helped.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

I I think I needed your advice six years ago. I may have started the CIO Investment Club a lot sooner. It's been an absolute pleasure, thank you so much. We're gonna go straight to the quick fire questions. Uh we're gonna ask you favourite sport cricket. Cricket. Excellent, very good indeed. Uh favorite film or TV drama?

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Oh, um oh good golly. Sorry, I spent so I I don't go and see um uh Hamlin at cinema for so long that I've forgotten that I I've I quite like Tarantino. Yeah, cheese to film, but I like Tarantino.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

That's so good. Yeah, Sean, my wife says if I don't watch a film that has a thousand bullets in it, it's not worth watching. Yeah, well that that's uh favorite drink? Uh red wine. Any particular red wine?

SPEAKER_03 44:05

I vary. Um I lived in Spain for a while, so I sort of grew the anti-rioka with uh with a Rioca, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

So uh favourite book? I think we've mentioned one already, but maybe there's a non-fiction.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Well, I I was gonna say they tend to read fiction rather than non-fiction. Um so uh and I've I I've always liked Ian Banks, but I mean, you know, he sadly died, um simply because I find the I find the writing style attractive and and and I find some of the ideas um challenging.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

And last favorite hobby. Well, I think I Travis, my favorite hobby ends up being children, doesn't it? Because that's what you spend more time doing than anything else. Um I I will I'll I I'll say something, I'll say gardening, if only because we we don't we have a garden that is uh an absolute wild land and I don't really garden, I I hack and and and hope that it looks better. You could have said gardening with children.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

I could have said gardening with children if that were true, which is true. Listen, Will, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Um, and we very much look forward to hopefully speaking to you again on the CIO chair. But in the meantime, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Thanks, Sean. Thanks, Artist. Thank you so much for listening. Be sure to stay tuned. In the meantime, follow the CIO Investment Club on LinkedIn, Threads and X to stay in the loop about our upcoming guest interviews on the CIO Chair Podcast. For more information about us, please visit our website at www.cioinvestmentclub.com. Thank you and goodbye.