Michael Sadler - Men in Black/The Matrix 022

This week on Core Memory, Cortney chats with musician, artist, actor, and former venue owner, Michael Sadler, about Men in Black (1997) and The Matrix (1999)!

Follow Michael on Instagram: @themouthhole

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Theme song by Ray Duncan: @rayduncanmusic on all platforms
Artwork by Holley Maher: @holleymaher on all platforms
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New Episodes every Friday!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Yeah, and that's why I love science fiction, is because it is it's taking these these things about humanity or society or what have you and and fucking with them so that it makes you think about them in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Oh, welcome back to Core Memory, a podcast about movies. I'm your host, Courtney Warner, and joining me this week, I'm so excited. Uh, we have a musician, a visual artist, and former venue owner. It's Michael Sadler. Yay!

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Hey, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Of course. Michael, how how are you doing? What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 0:55

I'm doing great. Um, having a chill day, ready to talk about these movies.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Hell yeah. Uh well, audience, something something fun uh that I always enjoy getting guests on this podcast who either work in film or or have podcasts about film. And Michael has done both, which is very exciting. He used to have a movie podcast, and he also is a videographer and filmmaker. So it's very exciting to get to talk to you about these movies. Um, and you know, it'll I feel like you know, when you ever get another person on who has a has or had a podcast, it's like two podcast hosts trying to, you know, you know what I mean. It's like watching like Conan O'Brien go on David Lennerman or something like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, we'll see if my like uh host tendencies um take over at any point and I like attempt to steer or sometimes that happens. I've appeared on podcasts and I'm like, I'm a little more um uh I I try to be in it more in control than I should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

So I feel I dude, I feel you. It does, it is funny when people because it's like not that there's like tricks to hosting, but it is a muscle that if you do it a long time, you're used to it. So you almost kind of default to that the factory settings of like, well, I'm on a microphone, I must host. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Right. You find yourself like, oh, that was a long digression. Let me steer this back to the to the like the the bigger point.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Right, exactly. Um, I feel like I starting out with this podcast, I had a bit of a hard time finding the rhythm of being a host, where I do feel like sometimes people had to like help guide it back a little bit, but hopefully, hopefully that won't be the case tonight. But um, but yeah, uh so audience, um Michael's two movies he brought tonight, really truly classics of the 90s, and very are they complement each other really well. So um Michael brought us Men in Black and The Matrix. Very excited to talk about these movies. Um, so let's start off with the Men in Black. Here's some quick stats. Sierra came out in 1997, uh, co-directed by Barry Sonnenfeld. And and this guy's name, I I was I had to read it like five times, F. Gary Gray. At first I thought it was like F. Gary Gary for a minute. Um, which is which is a hell of and which is uh which is funny. So co-directed by them, starring Tom and Lee Jones and Will Smith, uh absolute classic. Uh there's a theme park ride based off of it um at Universal. Uh so Michael, uh, can you tell me about the first time you saw this movie?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Yeah, the reason I chose this, you know, uh you prompted me to think of like what's the first movie I saw, and I kind of cheated a little. And uh this was just the first movie that I saw in the theater. Um, and I was like 12 at the time, and I went with my older brother, and I remember uh I thought I was I thought um they were gonna card me, which is like, why would a child have identification in the first place? But uh, and then they didn't ask any questions, and I thought, yeah, I do look like old for my age. This is cool. Like I get to go into an adult movie for the first time. Um, but it was it was truly like a magical experience, you know. Seeing this in the theater was just like completely immersive and so whimsical and fun and uh funny. It it was just like an amazing formative experience.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

That's amazing. Um, what a good first movie in the theaters, too. I uh audience, I was telling Michael yesterday when I was rewatching, when I was watching it, I had never seen, I'd never seen Men in Black. I thought I had because I'd written the ride at Universal a bunch of times when I've been there. Uh but so I'm like, certainly, yeah, I know this movie, but like at Universal, the set like their the whole like headquarters, they had that all built out for the ride and stuff. So in my mind, I'm like, yeah, I've seen this before, but when I sat down to watch it, I was like, oh, I've never seen a second of this movie before. But oh my God, what a what a fun ride it is.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

So how did it stack up against going to like the like movie versus the ride experience?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Oh man, so I think the uh I think the movie's better. The ride is like pretty dated. It's like a shooting game, basically. So it's like the the queue is really cool where it is like the headquarters and it's very like funny and really, really well detailed. But then you get on the ride and they just kind of they kind of move you around and you shoot at aliens as they pop out at you, which now seeing the movie it makes a lot of sense, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Um Do you happen to remember if the so you you know the scene where they have Will Smith in the headquarters and they're putting him through the tests to see if he might be uh a men in black and he shoots the little girl holding like the physics books. Do you remember seeing her in the shooting game of part of the ride, or is that just too distant of a memory?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

I don't remember. You know, I haven't been on I haven't been to Universal in God. I mean, it's probably been since like 2018 or so. Um and I've only gone like twice, just the two times. I don't, I don't surprise to know what I don't have a lot of money to go to theme parks, but occasionally I don't think a lot of people do uh at this point. I would like to go more. I think they're cool, but especially like the ones with all the movies and stuff. But yeah, I don't remember them having that. I think it was just strictly like it was supposed to be like training, because that's why they have you go through the headquarters and everything. So it's like you're in training, but you're shooting at targets at aliens. So it is a, I guess, derivative from the from that part of the movie. But the movie was a lot cooler than uh than the ride.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

But yeah, it's uh but it's a it's a great movie. Um honestly, like the graphics I think hold up for the most part. Like, even it's not like you can tell it's mid 97, but like it's not like offensive to look at, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Yeah, I think they did a pretty good job as far as like working in a lot of practical effects. Uh, so that when you do end up with like you know, the climax and it's all just like the CGI cockroach bug guy, it is it is a little cheesy, but you've kind of bought in by that point, and you're not you're not you're not really like trying to take it apart because you're immersed and you've like suspended your disbelief.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Yeah. Well, I'm curious too, what like because for me watching it now as an adult in my 30s for the first time, I'm like, these aren't remotely scary. They're kind of cute and funny looking. Was that that way for you? Or did you feel that at the time that you saw it in the theater, were people like actually scared and freaked out by how these creatures looked?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Oh, I don't really remember like having one of those kind of joined audience experiences. I was just there myself. It was like too singular for me to really know what people were thinking or feeling. But for me, it was like not scary, but slightly like tense and exciting. Uh you know, when you see Mikey come out of like the guy, uh and the head pops up, and then when he snarls and like runs after the guy, it was kind of like a little uh scary, you know. But as far as like there's so many cute aliens that it really uh, you know, like the baby that spits up on him and yeah, it's so cute. Even the like raunchy, like coffee uh the coffee room guys, they're all really funny and like it's all even even when Tony Shaloub's head gets blown off, it's kind of like it's done in like the blood is like another color. It's like it's all pretty like fun and there's not there's not much to be afraid of. I would say Vincent D'Amafrio is the scariest part.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I I feel that there is probably there was kind of a cool trend around that time. I feel like because the mummy probably, I think, came around out that time too, or like there's like these action adventure movies that could be like scary for kids, but they're just really can be appreciated by everyone. Where I feel like to get the I don't know, I don't feel like I see a ton of stuff that comes out that's like that universal, but also like has a lot of humor in it too. You know, I feel like the 90s were really cooking with some with those kinds of movies.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

But so how do you feel that did the movie do you feel that the movie affected you at all as a kid? Like affected like your imagination, or like if you like kind of did any play pretend or made you interested in outer space or aliens or anything?

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Oh, it definitely like um I think solidified my interest in like sci-fi fantasy films, um and just like blockbuster movies, you know. I at I had seen that movie probably before I saw E.T., you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

Oh, really? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I I think I'd seen that before. I'd seen a lot of other things that were maybe formative for other people. So um yeah, I mean, just the sense of humor of it, you know. I think by that point everybody was already a a fan of Will Smith via like The Fresh Prince and Independence Day and all of that stuff. Um but just like I don't know, the the like the the movie-making magic of all of it, the puppetry and like the score, Danny Elfman, that whole opening sequence with the like dragonfly. Um yeah, it was just like um so exciting. And I had never experienced something quite like that. You can't you can't quite get that excited when you like pop into VHS in front of your like you know in your like living room television.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

No, there's something so yeah, it made me like kind of obsessed with going to the movies too.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. I was gonna ask, like, the this like um do you think do you see like a direct line from seeing men in black at the in the theater to like wanting to make movies and wanting to be part of like production and stuff now as an adult?

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Definitely, yeah. I think that like just there, you know, I can I'm not saying that you can see like the scenes of it or anything, but just like wondering immediately, like, okay, how do they make Vincent D'Nafrio look like he's wearing a suit of himself? You know, it's just like the incredible uh like artistry of that practical effect is it's just like even at the time, I just remember being like 12 years old, and like, how did they do that? How did they make this little alien move around so articulately inside this guy's head? Yeah, you can tell all those things aren't computer generated. So, like, what goes into making any of that stuff look like it's actually moving in real space and time, and like you know, you you but you feel sad for that little alien. How did they do that? How do they make you feel something for like a little piece of what I didn't even know at the time, you know?

unknown 11:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

Silicone and and metal and you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah. No, I love that. And yeah, it is like, you know, I guess like watching it in my mind, I'm like, oh, certainly they just use mostly just CGI stuff, but like when I looked into it more, I'm like, oh, and it was a lot of practical lot of practical effects, which um, you know, I think it's coming back around now, practical effects and film and stuff, which is cool. But like I like that they did the blend of two, where it's like, I think CGI and like any kind of technology stuff, I think is it was used the way that I think it's intended to be, where it's like it fills in the gaps that like human and practical practical stuff can't do, like with the giant cockroach guy, you know. I think like the over reliance on it uh is uh obviously not great, but I think if it's used in in a tool to enhance like the uh physical stuff, I think is really good uh in movies. And I'm really it's really cool to see that that was used really well in this movie.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Yeah, definitely. Um I think that you know by the time the movie's climax happens, you kind of can't get away from having it be a big CGI bug. But um yeah, any any of the times that they're able to use practical effects, it just it it invites you like in to believe it more.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Yeah, no, definitely. And also you mentioned Danny Alfman doing the score. I mean, he's come up a lot on this podcast too. It's like he really was, he's obviously great, he's still doing really cool stuff, but he was really everywhere in the 80s and 90s, I feel like, too.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, Beetlejuice and Batman and Yeah, I mean, you probably had a longer list at this point.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, uh all the Pee-wee.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Pee-wee, right.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, it's just um it's just funny that like um that even you almost can't, there's like certain figures in film, and maybe it's just like the age demographic of people that I talk to, which are generally all of my friends, and we're all roughly around the same age or in the same bracket. Um, you can't escape certain like figures in film, and it's so interesting, like like Steven Spielberg, George Lucas, Danny Elfman, you know, a lot of Tim Burton, like those guys, like you it's kind of crazy how they shaped a lot of like what what what they like is what we like, you know what I mean? And what we grew up enjoying. Um it's just kind of funny how it gets distilled down to like these like four or five people that really just were like everywhere. Because um, yeah, I didn't even realize it was Danny Elfman that did the score, which is uh which makes sense, you know, but because given like thinking about how whimsical it did play into kind of adding the levity, levity to the to a movie that could have been very scary for kids, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, I think it's interesting the like the comedic tone of the thing, which I think like is perfect for Danny Elfman, because if it had played a little more seriously, I don't think you could, you know, you I don't think you could have Danny Elfman, I don't think you could have even Will Smith uh to a certain extent at that time, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Um because it's like he he just has such a like knack for bringing this element of like levity through being kind of wacky. And you don't really see him doing more serious acting until a little later, like a decade later or something.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Right. Yeah, like I mean, I know he won the Oscar for King Richard during the famous slap of the Oscars. But uh But yeah, yeah, you don't really yeah, I think he was known as like this like kind of hot shot, good-looking guy on a sitcom, does music, all those things. And he was definitely, I think, kind of slotted in as a comedic relief for things. Um, so you know, because I remember as a kid seeing the commercials and all like the trailers and stuff for men in black, and I thought as a time at the time, I'm like, that looks so scary and so serious. And I just never really touched it. I think that's maybe one of the reasons why subconsciously that I didn't see the mummy for a long time. And just another one that like that, like that just looked too scary for me at the time. Um, but then to see them, I'm like, oh, these are really fun, and these are really and it's like, well, of course, Brendan Frazier's not gonna do a super serious thing until he's like much older. You know, he doesn't like he was also kind of a goofy guy, too.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, and it was just the time of of you know, action cinema at the time uh to be kind of comedy, you know, like infused.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

Yeah. Yeah. And then I feel like it kind of took a turn for a bit, but then, you know, I I um I feel like comedy and action maybe kind of gotten back into into the forefront with like Marvel and stuff. I think like Guardians was pro of the galaxy was probably a good uh good like turn back into like, oh, people like to laugh while they're like be excited that things are getting blown up, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Yeah, I mean, even like something that's a little more um you know, martial arts kind of serious, like John Wick has some, you know, some good comedy moments.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

But I wanted to touch back on, you know, you brought up like the uh the song, you know? Like he did Men in Black, he did uh Wild Wild West when that came out. And I I just find myself wishing that that trend had continued, you know. Like, can we get concussion of a song? Yeah, can we get pursuit of happiness? Like we need to keep this like movie, this movie single soundtrack thing going.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Dude, I agree, because um I I think about like in general, I feel like soundtracks for movies, they you like they're I I feel like you know, they'll get like one or two that actually will be hits on the radio that you forget they're from that movie, you know. And you and that just isn't very common, I feel like anymore. Uh like I don't think maybe a few Disney songs that are like on like adult contemporary radio, like you know, or whatever, but you don't get that anymore. And I I I think the most recent one that I could think of that comes to mind is that Eminem did a song for the movie Venom, and it's just called Venom. You know, I mean Eminem's man of many words, but very simple in execution sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Um Yeah, I just want to see I you know, I want to see more of that. Like, let's get like have an in-credits King Richards song. Let's let's like let's go, let's keep Will Smith working, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Right. He needs yeah, he needs get him back in the studio, you know what I mean? But yeah, because I feel like I mean, I yeah, because that is like a it was a I could see that being like a song you could just hear on the radio in the 90s, and like, oh, like that is from Men in Black, but it's also like a really fun It was all over the place.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Yeah, it was just like that was a radio single, you know. It's like it was up there with Miami. It's like that one didn't need a movie, but it's you know, men in black, everybody was pumping that on the radio at the time.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Oh yeah, and like um, I think about the song. This is uh definitely not men in black, but I'm not that it came out not that much later. It was uh in Shrek 2. The song accident accidentally in love by Counting Crows was written for Shrek 2 and now you don't even you wouldn't you wouldn't think about that. You're like, oh that's a really fun Counting Crow song. Uh but it yeah, it's just the cre the the lack of the creativity of like let's just write something for this movie that can be played forever, you know? But yeah, I think we need I think we need to bring that back. I think Michael, I think you could do it. I think we gotta put you in a movie. We're gonna get you in a starring movie, and you're gonna write a song for it, and uh it's gonna be a top 40 hit for and then you'll be known as uh as a as that guy.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

That's a tall order.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I think it could happen. You know, I think you just need you just need the right, you need to be paired with the right director and then the right studio, and it'll uh then you'll be you'll be super famous. I feel that you're the guy to do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I like the confidence.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Oh, it's it's a it's I I fully believe it because um we need more of that, I feel like. Um because yeah, there's a quality to movies now that they're still good. There's obviously still amazing movies being made, and more than ever, and more people have accessibility to make stuff that they want to make. But sometimes I think that it was maybe helpful to have a little more constraint. Like, I don't think necessarily studios should be controlling things, but it seemed like things were more curated. Like where it felt like a whole package where it's like, okay, we're gonna have Will Smith star in this movie, he's gonna do a song for the movie, it's gonna be this, and we're gonna make more movies as that one did well. It almost kind of reminds me of like that kind of stuff reminds me of like in like the old days of Hollywood where it's like an actor would be signed to like like a like universal and be like, oh, you're gonna be in these five movies, you're gonna do music for on our record label and all that stuff. And there is something kind of, I don't know, kind of like nice that it was so curated in that way. And you got a lot of good you get there's a lot of good art that came out of that.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Yeah, yeah. It's like the three-picture deal, the five picture deal kind of thing. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, yeah, at this point, uh there's there's the the other side of that is you just want to see these people have like ultimate freedom to go, you know, right, work work on different things. Because in a way, it's like, do we need to see Chris Hemsworth uh spend his entire career being tour or you know uh Robert Downey Jr. only doing like 47 Marvel movies for the rest of his career? Uh not to say that these are like necessarily incredible artists, but um but but if you know but yeah, I I'm just uh the franchise has kind of brought that back in a way, but it it it's you know, hopefully those people can get whatever they want to get made outside of that system.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Right, agreed.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Um you just hope that like Brie Larson can go and work on whatever she wants or get something greenlit because she's been, you know, Captain Marvel a couple of times.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Right. Hopefully, although I feel like people don't like her very much, even though I think she's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Yeah, that is an interesting person to bring up because she is sort of maligned by by people. But I think it's just because people are nerds and assholes. I don't I don't know that it actually has to do with the quality of her uh Work. I thought she was great as Captain Marvel.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

And same.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

As good as anybody else is in any of those other roles, I guess. You know?

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Right. No, I think she's awesome. I loved her and all her indie stuff. Like I loved her in Room. That was the first thing I think I saw her in. You know, well, no, actually, no, the first thing I saw her in, I think was 13 going on 30, because apparently she was in that movie as like a kid.

unknown 22:23

Huh.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

So I didn't, but I didn't know it at the time. But like seeing her as like an actor act the actress, like Brie Larson, you know. Um, but yeah, I think I think there's a there could be a balance there too. Because it does seem like those those um the Marvel people and the Star Wars people can all go off and make whatever they want to. But I do like, I don't know, there's something nice to have in a bit of structure, but like where if the actor or if the performer has like the talent to make music for a movie and to do all those things, it is kind of cool. And I think that I mean, I feel like most actors are don't do all of that anymore. I feel like we kind of lost that, like, oh, I'm an actor and I'm a musician and I do this and this. Like it kind of died off with like the Nickelodeon Disney Disney kids a little bit too, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Well, I feel like you see a little bit of that coming back in like the Stranger Things uh era, you know, with like Finn Wolfhart or or uh what's his name?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Joe uh Joe Kierie.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Joe Cierry, yeah. It's like there are still there are still people dabbling in that world of like I'm a musician as well, and I'm going on tour, and I'm a director, and I'm an actor. Um so I mean I find that none of their music is ever very good, but yeah, exactly. But I think Will Smith is like it may be a slight exception because those were like huge hits.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

But he kind of, you know, I I think that's maybe the the instance of he started as a musician before he really got into the acting game. So I'm not and I don't think he's great by any means. I just those are good pop songs, you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Agreed, agreed. And and yeah, like I think that that like you know, you mentioned the stranger stranger stranger things kids. It's like they're not making music for the show, though. You know, they're not making like a hit song for the show.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

They're doing their own. Uh stranger things song.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

Right. I think they gotta get off. I would love to hear whatever he has to say about Stranger Things in music.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Let's just get the whole cast in on it. Let's do like uh let's do a Backstreet Boys, but like with the boys of Stranger Things or something, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Right, get everyone, get like do like a we are the world, but like get everyone in the studio.

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I'm sure they can all sing.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I feel like they probably can. Oh, I know like most of them, I feel like most of them do some sort of music too, which I think is interesting. Like I know Maya Hawk does music.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Um I forgot about her. She uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

So they I think they need to get all three of them in there, and they gotta do some like, it's stranger things. Oh, it's stranger or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah, it could only help at this point, right.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

I mean, the show on its final season, why don't we just throw some music in there? Um, you know, like one of them has to do a has to do a rap over the bridge, you know. I mean, I'd I'd at least listen to it once just to see what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

We'll make David Harbour do the rap.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Yeah, oh yeah. I think he'd be, yeah, I think he would be perfect for that, you know. Um too bad him and Lily Allen aren't together anymore. She could have produced it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Oh but uh so I'm curious, do you still do you still like this movie or do you feel that it's purely nostalgia or do you like it on the merit of its like artistic how it holds up?

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Well, I was trying to, I was thinking about that when I was watching it again uh the other day. And you know, I was thinking it a bunch of times, and yeah, I was thinking like, is this just holding a place in my heart because it was the first movie I saw? But no, I mean I still got captured by the magic of it, and I still like cared about what was happening, you know. I still was like immersed and and had I still had questions. Uh at the end of the day, it's like, what is the deal with the like coroner? Like, yeah, what what what was she about to say that she does when nobody's around at night? Like, is she a freak? Is she like and and maybe it's like I'm looking at it through like this other lens of like I've seen a million movies at this point, and but I still was so enthralled by the whole thing. I still found Vincent D'Anofrio to be incredible and like um menacing and funny, and you know, Tommy Lee Jones to be the perfect straight man, and like the pace of it and everything, I just felt like no notes. I just like loved it. I just had a really great time. The music and all the little like contraptions and the like production design, just phenomenal. I I feel like I got right in there with it again.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah, no, I totally feel you. I as seeing it for the first time as a full-fledged adult, I thought it was awesome. Like, I I I see why they made so many after them because it's they're just fun, it's a fun universe to live in, you know what I mean? And yeah, like the coroner, like what the fuck was her deal? You know, I do I was wondering that too. I'm like, so why are you where do you fit into all this?

SPEAKER_00 27:32

She was just about to like really, you know, reveal her freak, and then she didn't get the chance. She kept getting like neuralized before she could be like, you know, this is who I really am.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

Right. It's like, oh let me just show you what goes on down here.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Right. But um, yeah, I mean, I I just got right back into it and just uh it felt like you know a good short entertaining watch.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Yeah. Agreed. I think that like if they I feel like if they released it today, not the remakes or whatever, I think it could still I mean if they, you know, tweak some of the CGI, it would still be a hit, I think. You know, I just yeah I I don't I don't think I'd really seen anything quite like that before and like the it's aliens, it's kind of scary, but it's funny. Um, I don't know, just a good mix of a lot of things going on there um that I think would it would it would absolutely hit hit today.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Definitely, yeah. I mean, it you know, and a lot of things have tried to uh mimic that or even like the sequels trying to recapture that, which they they blow. The sequels are terrible.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Good to know.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

And you know, we're gonna talk about that in regards to the matrix too, but it's just so hard to to like cash in again on something like that because there was just there was something magic about it. And I don't know if it's just like the the stakes are higher because you have to like really knock it out of the park on the first go, and then you can kind of phone it in on the sequels. I don't really know what happened, but it just doesn't have the same kind of like um sparkle as the first one.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's that's really unfortunate because it does feel like everyone's given it their all, they're all perfectly cast in these roles. And, you know, I I think this will relate. I um was watching uh the new Actors on Actors episode, and it was Kate Hudson and Jeremy Allen White, and they get on the subject of her talking of they're talking about all the rom-com she does and how she loves the genre of the rom-com. And she's like, you know, these studios, the the point of making a rom-com to them is not to make some art project, it's to fill get people to come out and see it. And they're they basically have she's like, I've heard this over and over again from studios, from directors, whoever. It's like it doesn't matter about the character, it doesn't matter what happens. What matters is that we sell this product basically. And she's like, Well, I care about the art. I care that people, I want this to be a great rom-com. I want this to live in a world where it's timeless. And I think that's why a lot of hers, I think, are pretty timeless, you know. And I think that I feel that that can happen with action movies too, you know, action and comedies, you know, where it's like studios are like, we don't give a shit. It made a lot of money, we'll make we'll just pump out another one. And I wonder sometimes if that care and that precision that goes into those first ones, like the first men in black, uh, because they don't, because they're, you know, it felt more like felt like there's a lot more passion, I would assume, behind that than like, oh, studios just want more of these, you know. So I don't know if I don't know if that's related, that relates to it or not, but I wonder if that's maybe why they kind of fell flat, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Yeah, I mean, I think that uh anytime throughout history someone's seen an opportunity to cash in again, they take it, whether they should or not. And I think a lot of the times that is without good scripts or without like um things being as thought out as the first time. Uh because they they have to take a chance the first time, you know. Who knew that Men in Black would have been a success? Who knew that it would have been a like a cultural phenomenon in the way that it was?

SPEAKER_02 31:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Um and oh, something I wanted to bring up because it's kind of related, but um, you know, it's this is a Marvel property too.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

That's right. I was gonna I was looking into that. I'm like, yeah, it is, it's it's based off of a comic.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

So, you know, this like I think predates Blade even, or maybe came out the same the same year. Blade might have been 98, I think, but no, it's like uh that's a another interesting thing, only because they they're that's the like you know, sausage factory of a lifetime where they just keep pumping those things out.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Because there's like you know, the because of the success of those first few movies. Um and it's that's essentially redefined our this this generation of like blockbuster films.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Um no. I'm not saying that that starts with Men in Black, but like the precedent of like this science fiction kind of world-building um action comedy is sort of like it is the backbone of what all of those Marvel movies are trying to be anyway.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah, definitely. And I was surprised to learn that it was a Marvel property. I I I think I'm a pretty, pretty uh av or was a pretty avid comic book reader, you know, when I was younger. Um still like them to to today, but not maybe I don't have as much time to read them now. Uh, but I don't remember, I guess Men in Black never really registered as like one that I would have picked. I did a lot of the superhero ones. Um, but I remember reading um and when I was researching this movie too, that Tommy Lee Jones initially passed on the on the movie because he's like it doesn't it doesn't match the comic enough. It's not good enough, it doesn't reflect the comic as well, which I'm like that's pretty cool to hear, you know. Um, so that was my first like, oh, I didn't realize it was based off of a Marvel property. But um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:07

I'm surprised by him because you know, I I know that he had kind of famously a bad time working on Batman and Robin. Um or Bat Batman Forever. I can't, I can never fucking remember which one.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

I think it I think it was Batman Forever, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

But then, you know, he goes on to do like Men in Black, which is another kind of like very over-the-top kind of thing. I guess he's doing something a little more in like the realm of like the straight man, so it's maybe a little easier. But it's it's interesting that he like wanted the comedy in there, uh, and the kind of like whimsy of it. Uh, because I think of him as like more of a very serious actor, but he's great at like he he's got the tone perfectly down for something like this.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah, like he definitely nailed the uh yeah, like you said, the straight man where it's like he is, he's he seems like a serious, he is a serious actor, he has a very serious face, you know, like even but maybe that's why it worked so well because it was just like so ridiculous that he's very like, no, I take this very seriously, and this is what's going on, and like this and Will Smith is like the audience basically being like, what the fuck is happening? Um, and so I think that it worked really well for him. And I wish I wish he would do more comedies, you know?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Yeah, yeah, the the things that CM and I've enjoyed that side that side of him.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

So yeah, oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Oh no, I was just gonna no, no, it was it was just a dumb tangent where I was like, he's kind of like Jason Bateman, where he sets up the joke really well, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

But what were you what were you gonna say?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Oh, this is an element of this movie that I think relates to the Matrix, uh, is and especially like perfect for somebody uh like 12 years old, like a 12-year-old boy, you know, is this like the you're talking about Will Smith being kind of the the audience member uh character, uh which he definitely is. It's like the that like the secret world opening up, uh and everything you thought was real is something else. And that was especially like wonderful as like, you know, as like a teenage boy. It's like you're just having all those thoughts and you're having all those feelings. It's like, what if the world were different? What if you know you're letting your imagination like kind of I I spent a lot of time as a kid thinking like that I was the only human uh in existence and everything.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

And then every and then I was being experimented on by all everyone else. Very crazy conspiratorial little kid stuff. But uh but so yeah, that like this and the matrix, like both, you know, they like uh it's mind-blowing for like a young mind to be like, oh, like, you know, the the world is is like stranger and wilder and weirder and like vaster than you ever thought.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Uh and all this, all those like things that you think are true could be true. And maybe you've just been brainwashed to not see them, or you know, maybe somebody neuralized you.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Right, right. No, that's so true, and it is such a fun, those types of movies I think are really good for like young people just to be like, well, what else is out there? Whether, I mean, whether or not we're being controlled by the government with with aliens or not, or there's just more that meets the eye out there for for people to find beyond, like, you know, I know you and I both come from like rural small towns, didn't have a lot of money. So there it's it's a nice thing to dream about, you know, like well, what else can I what else can I do? You know?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, I think you and when you're in a circumstance like that, you have to let your imagination like go well beyond the bounds of what you know because you just live in like you know, poverty or or like a very small community. And like what what is out there? What is out there for me?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Right. Yeah. Oh, well, that's beautiful. Um, are you ready to move on to your second movie, The Matrix? Yeah, let's fucking go. All right, so for some stats for the audience, uh, The Matrix came out in 1999, famously directed by the Wachowskis. Uh, it's starring Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne, and Carrie Ann Moss. Uh, truly a classic of the genre and just in general. Uh, Michael, why is this your one of your favorite movies?

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Uh, it it's just the coolest fucking thing ever. I mean, I don't know. It's like it's uh it's not my favorite movie, but it's definitely, you know, it tops the list of of like my favorites. And and I picked this because it kind of went hand in hand with Men in Black, because I saw this a couple years later in the theater. I was a little older, and it just blew my mind. Uh you know, it was like kind of you know a like more serious, more like uh far out version of the same thing where you're like being taken out of your reality and put into this other reality. Uh and you know, just like all the clothes and all the music and all of the like um all the philosophy of it. Uh it just was like formative completely.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Yeah. Oh, and it's so, I mean, it really was ahead of its time in a lot of ways too. Like, it's a shame that it got commandeered by all these like, you know, these like right wing, right, right wing idiots, you know, the red pill, blue pill bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

When it's like when I think I believe I believe it's like an allegory for being trans, I'm pretty sure. Uh for the Chelsea sisters. Uh, it's kind of crazy how that got commandeered. There's, you know, I think for me sometimes, like with seeing all that bullshit in the media about like how things get commandeered, like like this movie, sometimes I'm like, man, I wish that movie was never fucking made, honestly, because of just how misconstrued it gets. But like upon rewatch, I'm like, it's still just a phenomenal movie, and it sucks that it gets tainted by that stuff, but it holds it, it doesn't take away from how good it is, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah, I mean, you can't, you know, you can't judge the movie for what people contort it into. Um like you're saying, especially because there's like, you know, it's actually very much about something in a way that like you can interpret whatever you want, I guess, but uh it's it's funny that the the like the way people have co-opted it is so far from what it's actually about that it's hilarious. But yeah, uh you know, it's the same thing with like Fight Club or these films that are like kind of um bold in their you know depiction of of what they're trying to get across and just how easily it I don't know how easy it is for people to say like that's about me and how I don't get laid and like yeah I don't know it's like I want to be a man and go beat people up in my basement. It's like that's kind of you're missing the point.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Right, exactly. Um yeah, I think it's not actually cool, yeah. Yeah, like it's actually pretty fucking American Psycho's kind of in that same category directed by a woman, and guys like, no, that's that's the ideal male physical form, and that's the way to be. It's like that, it's that's not it's that's not the point of the movie, you know. Um, but all of that aside, like it is funny how people just like contort that stuff where it's like where they think like, oh no, I'm the I'm in the right here. Like, like I don't, it's just it's so stupid.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

Um you've you've you've managed to turn the matrix into confirmation bias to your shitty opinions. It's really it's pretty ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Right. I don't really like the the mental gymnastics that you have to go through to be like this movie is describing my life story of how I want to be racist. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 41:24

It's actually just a cool movie, dude. Just chill out.

SPEAKER_01 41:28

Yeah, just like you know, smoke a little weed, pop on the matrix, you know. We're all Neo at the end of the day. But it's uh it's I mean, another one that just kind of sticks uh stands out is like late 90s, you know. The technology that we have now is obviously better than what they had had back then, but it still looks really fucking cool.

SPEAKER_00 41:50

It's very stylized and yeah, incredible production design, costuming, like even the CD looks like it's already looking a lot better than Men in Black at this point.

SPEAKER_03 42:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Um, you know, it's just absolutely phenomenal. And at the time, you know, it was definitely like this is the height of like effects and and all these all of these things in cinema. It was absolutely like insane to see in a theater. And was like just every aspect of the filmmaking of it was like fuck, how did they do that? Like, oh, that choice is perfect, like, you know, down to like the the like fabrics they used when they like when they're in the real world.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Just like every aspect of it was so thoughtful and creative and and amazing.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Yeah, and and I feel like too, like uh the Wachowskis, like they're I don't know of a lot of other famous directing duos that predate them per se, you know, because now we have the Daniels, we have the Safety, well, RAP to the Safety brothers, they don't work together anymore. And I we also had the DuPlace brothers, who I also don't think work together anymore. But beside the point, you know, like I feel like they kind of were like, oh yeah, you can definitely like make something cool with your with your sibling, I guess. I don't I don't know. That was just something that stuck out to me.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

I that I yeah, I mean, you know, you the uh the other big one is the Cohen's uh what's your cohen?

SPEAKER_01 43:20

Fuck, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

But no, yeah, I mean, but the the that was um that is a thing at the time that was like, oh wow, you can like make uh like somehow a duo works in this role that seems like it should be for one person.

SPEAKER_01 43:41

Right. But I think that's how I felt oh go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

I don't know if you feel this way. Like I got like the 90s is it uh like from the 70s until now, basically, like everybody got high on the idea of like the autour filmmaker. So it's like that's what I was gonna say the single, you know, the Quentin. Tarantino, the Paul Thomas Anderson, like the person that's like, I wrote this, I direct it, you know. But then you you get somebody like the Wachowskis or the Collins, and you can see, like, now that they've worked apart, it's like, oh, that's that's a special sauce that requires the other one to be like this one thing that they do.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

Right, agreed. And even like you think, I mean, going back to Marvel, you have the Russo brothers too, who like took off who like, yeah, Avengers was was um the Russo brothers with like Marvel, like that's a hell of a feat to take on. Like an Avengers, like to do all of that stuff, you know. Um that like I think would be really hard for a director to do alone, you know, that something like that. So so there is something special if you find a collaborator that also happens to be related to you, I guess too. Um, is it's it's irreplaceable.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Yeah, you have to imagine that the shorthand of being a sibling or you know, being related in that some like major way has to be like you just you just have like a great history of communication has to make it a lot more cohesive.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah, and I it is interesting how like we see all these other autour duos like kind of breaking off and making their own stuff. And it's all like it's all fine, but like nothing that the Sad Fees have made separately has matched like uncut gems or good time, you know what I mean? And right, I wonder if that and same with like yeah, same with the Coens. I think the last movie that I saw from one of them was like that new one with Margaret Quali and uh Aubrey Plaza. That I was like, it would have been a lot better if your brother was there, I think, helping like balance things out, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

But right, yeah, that's an interesting split for them because one of them goes off to make like a Macbeth movie is very serious, and and then the other one makes like a lesbian like road movie, uh which was like fun, but again, it's like yeah, these kind of things, like these two things you could tell they're like the two pieces of the recipe that got split or something.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Right. Yeah, where it's yeah, it's like that's why they they work so well together because it is that duality of like, well, I want more this or more that or whatever, but when you take them apart, it is just like too, just it's too much of the one thing, it seems like. Um, but yeah, I know the Wachowski's they did they continue doing the Matrix. I know they did Speed Racer, which I don't know if you ever saw Speed Racer.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

I did, but that was that was a trip.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

That was a fun one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah, uh they did V for Vendetta.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Another Hugo Weaving movie, which he was great in.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

Um, yeah, I mean, just to talk about the Matrix, like what a character Agent Smith is yeah, just so like uh menacing and dry and funny and weird uh in this like you know manifestation of like disgruntled AI, which we should all like really, you know, we should all pay attention to.

SPEAKER_02 47:09

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

It's like there there's the like uh cautionary tale right there, the Matrix. Like we're fucking around with AI hard right now. We just don't even understand we're about to become, you know, liquid batteries for uh sentient computers.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Dude, you know, again, like this movie is timeless in the fact that like it came out, and I think people are like, oh, what a cool, like futuristic movie, and now it's like still futuristic, but not as far off, but still like it's it turned almost from being like a fun idea to a cautionary tale, uh, just in that in the time in the 27 years almost that it since it's come out. Um yeah, people need to really uh at least just say please and thank you to the to the robot if you're gonna be using it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Well, yeah, I mean, at this point, we haven't quite figured out as the society how like far we want to go in using it. A lot of people are, you know, um against it. I think that like it's inevitable. And they probably even said that in The Matrix.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Agent Smith probably says that they're inevitable because once you start, you can't put that genie back in the bottle, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 48:26

Um no.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Uh, but yeah, I mean, I think we're we're trying to decide right now how and and why and like the extent of how we're gonna use all that. But yeah, maybe hopefully after people like use it for masturbation that they say thank you. So it doesn't so it doesn't resent and overthrow us, or at least not as the interest.

SPEAKER_01 48:51

Right, exactly. It's like right, it's like, oh well, they did say thank you, I guess, you know. So, but um, I'm curious your thoughts. So, you know, I I know that like obviously Keanu Reeves, national treasure, beloved, he's not really beloved for his acting. And I know that people have had varying opinions on him as a leading man, but it's uh I hear a lot of like polarizing thoughts on him in The Matrix, where they're like, he's boring, should have been whoever the fuck else they were gonna try and get for that movie. I'm curious, do you think he's well fit for this? Or like I guess what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Well, okay, so to to just like touch back, you know, uh one of the things I learned a while back is that Will Smith was uh considered or or like in the running or in some way uh like maybe turned down the role of Neo.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Uh I didn't know that. Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Which could have been a vastly different movie. You know, we're talking about like we were talking about before, like the tone of like what he brought to a film in that time period. It just there doesn't seem like a lot of space for like quips or comedy in the matrix. Like it kind of needed to be self-serious, it kind of needed to be like, you know, um a little straighter than that. And um I think Keanu Reeves is kind of perfect for this role because he is like insert your he's the avatar for the audience in a like yeah, even bigger way. Because you're like you go through this experience and uh you are Neo, you know, you're the person who's like, yeah, I feel special. Am I like am I special? And then uh you and then you get unplugged from you know you go on the ride. It's basically it feels like the whole ride, but like yeah, I remember seeing it for the first time, and it does like it really takes um it gives the audience a lot of credit in the way that it just kind of unfolds these things, and you're and I don't know, I feel like Keanu Reeves really did a good job of like just being kind of uh really neutral. Uh yeah, you know, because he like and and maybe it would be different if he was a better actor. He's not a terrific actor, he's like really he's great in some things. I really really enjoy him, and uh, I think that some things couldn't have been the same without him, villain Ted, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:24

Um but I feel like he was just a vehicle for the audience in this. And it I feel like that was really effective, you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:35

Yeah. Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. I think that makes a lot of sense too, because he does fit that role of like everything is happening to him, but he's still the lead guy, you know what I mean? So you have to have someone who is kind of a blank slate in a way that can just absorb everything and kind of be, yeah, like usher people into the universe. Because yeah, that movie kind of like kind of on the rewatch, I'm like, it really does kind of drop you into like this is what's happening. There's not a lot of like there's like exposition, but it's all moving kind of fast and it's happening as like all this stuff is going on. So I I think yeah, they they it gives the audience a lot of credit to be able to keep up with it. And I think someone like him who is just like absorbing all of this and is uh is a good actor to have.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Yeah, I think that another like a stronger character might have overpowered the the like exposition of it and the narrative of it. Yeah, you know, because by the time it doesn't and it moves quickly by the time that the claw machine is pulling out his naked gooey body, and you're like, what the fuck is going on? Like you're kind of thinking, what the fuck is going on? Like, what's happening to me? Like, why am I enjoying this? Why am I like so on board and and ready to be taken to wherever we're going? Uh and I think that if like you I think if you connected with a character a little more than that, that you'd be worried, but you're not worried. You're like, yeah, Morpheus, fucking, you know, come grab me up and like nurse me back to health.

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Right. Damn, that's a really good point. Where like if he were a stronger, a more strong, have a had a stronger personality or whatever, you would be, it wouldn't keep your curiosity. I think it would immediately make you go. Most people go into like sympathy of like, oh, this is awful, and like shut, I could see it shutting the audience off to like being curious about what's gonna happen next. That's a really good point.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

And feeling like it's you, you know. I think it was really brilliant of them at the time. It's like, okay, the reality as you know it inside the matrix is 1999 when the movie came out. And they chose they could have chosen any time, you know, they could have made that into the future, they could have made it like slightly in the past, but it's like to make it contemporary is to grab you as the audience. Like uh, so that nothing feels quite so foreign. It all feels like familiar, and then you get taken into this completely foreign place to like aboard the Nebuchadnezzar where people are like you know, eating the goop and like drinking the like you know uh the like degrees or or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Right. Yeah, that's yeah, that's a man. I I I love the matrix, and there's a lot of like thoughts and theories around it that I try to keep that try to like look into, but like I love I love all your takes with everything. This is this is incredible. Incredible work, Michael. Um thanks. I know it's it's one of your faves, so I I get that. That yeah, this is this is really all a lot to give me, gives me a lot to chew on too after re-watching it recently.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Yeah, I mean, it's um it's the movie that like it I I watching it again, I I've seen I it never does me wrong. This time I would say that I did it. I end I walked away with like the slight criticism of that the love story is extremely thin. Um and by the time by the time you get to like she's she's standing over him, he's dying, she's like, you know, I love you. I it pisses him and he becomes, you know, he like pulls back into he's the one. It's like all right, not not really though. Like you didn't really like make me believe you were falling in love. It just it needed like I think being extremely critical. It needed like another scene or two of them building chemistry or like having you know a little bit more interaction for me to buy that like anything was transpiring between them that could have resulted in like just even like admiration or like, you know, or like a fondness, but like she fucking loves him all of a sudden, like right.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

I'm like, okay, okay, sister, sure.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

Yeah, but that's fine, you know. I can I can look past that because it's like that's not really what the movie's about. It like right, it tries to touch on that as a as a plot point to get another piece of tone across so that we can, you know, complete the hero's journey. But but all right, you didn't really sell me on on like on the fact like even in the sequels, it's like, do you guys like each other? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Like, yeah. Um, but speaking of the sequels, we kind of talked about this earlier too with Men in Black. So yeah, the sequels for The Matrix, not very good.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

Just complete ass. Like I was the I this is maybe the biggest um example of me being let down by something like a sequel because I love the movie, I love the first one so much, and I was extremely hyped for the sequels. And I went to see them in the theater. And the second one was just like, what is this? What what the hell am I watching? You know, it just goes on such a like it feels like such a weird tangent in a way that's like just disappointing and doesn't it feels like it sells out the the character in the first movie a little bit. I don't know, it's just like just did not meet my expectations, and I'm sure a lot of people felt like that.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:24

Um and it was fine. Like I got over it. Yeah, I was only I was only I was only butthurt for a few years, but only a few years. Uh and then the most recent one was fun.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:44

It was like it was okay. It was like, you know, I feel like it was different enough to make it worthwhile. Um and it was like kind of long enough so that they could do some sort of meta things with it. Um it was enjoyable. I wouldn't say that it was that it was good or that it really fit into like being a sequel to the first one per se in the way that I would want it to be, but I I I enjoyed it. But I I did one one thing I really loved was the Animatrix. I thought that was super cool.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Oh, wait, wait, what?

SPEAKER_00 58:23

The Animatrix. So it's like I think it came out maybe between movies two and three or one and two.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

But it's like Oh, I haven't heard of this.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Oh, it's cool. It's like uh uh like a series of shorts, uh and it's just like little vignettes of the matrix. Um you should watch it, it's like they're all done in different animation styles, and it's uh it's pretty groovy.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

That's awesome. And did the Wachowski's like direct and produce all of those too?

SPEAKER_00 58:58

Oh, I can't remember what the like who's behind the creative elements of it, but it's it's definitely worth it. There's it's uh you know, just smoke a dude and like pop it on, you know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:17

Well for our for our next uh for the next art hangout that uh that no one could make over to your house, you should that should be the next one.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

Yeah, we'll just like smoke a little weed and watch the animatrix. No, that's actually a good that'd be a good like I like to do like a little cartoon before the movie sometimes. Um things like that I think are are fun. Um so that'd be a good one just depending on what you're pairing it with.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Yeah, no, I love a nice little yeah, kind of like what uh what they what uh like Pixar does with their little shorts before they put on the actual movie. I love a nice little like a little appetizer before the main course kind of situation.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

Yeah, I feel like that's like something that dates back to like early cinema too. It was like have a little cartoon before the movie and you know, or like a newsreel or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Right. Well, I think that's how Mickey Mouse came to be was he was like Steamboat Willy or whatever, it was just a little like short cartoon that they put before um whatever movies that Disney was working on, I think at the time. But yeah, no, that would be cool. I'd never heard of Animatrix, but I'm gonna I'm gonna have to check that out. I didn't see I didn't see the new movie, um, the newest one, because I was already just kind of like I like the first one, don't really remember the second or third one, and I was already kind of over it, you know what I mean? But it's good to know that it was a fun, at least a fun watch.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:39

Yeah, I mean it's like made by one of the Wachowskis. It's uh got a good cast, it's got like the benefits of all you know the modern filmmaking technology. Keanu Reeves and Carrie Ann Moss come back. Um yeah, I I I thought it was cool. It was like fun. And yeah, like just it was fun to go back into that world a little a little bit with something that's um a little, it felt a little like a little more appropriate than the two sequels somehow.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Interesting, but that's good to know because yeah, I in my mind the matrix is just that's the only one. The other ones don't count.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Yeah, I mean you don't really need it. Like he when he flies off at the end, he like hangs up the phone and you just see him flying, and you're like, all right, you know, like we don't actually need any more from Neo. We know he's gonna go like fuck shit up, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

Right, right. And I wonder if they, you know, maybe because like um kind of kind of like talking about with Men in Black too, where it's like they didn't know they were gonna make another one. So it's kind of nice that it was so contained, and it does feel like I feel sometimes it's like sequels to movies that are the most of the time sequels aren't necessarily necessary, especially like ones back in made back in the day. I think a lot of times now movies are being made to set up for a sequel, but that's why a lot of movies feel kind of incomplete, you know. But for this, it's like, man, did the Matrix really need a sequel? You know what I mean? And like in the context of like how perfectly well done that movie was, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Yeah, I mean, it just insisted on a sequel because it was an enormous hit. Uh but the storytelling was complete. And maybe, you know, maybe there is a way to say, all right, this is how the story continues, but I don't know. It's like maybe the the the the sequels they planned the whole time. I don't really know what the story is. I just felt like the way in which they unfolded was just it lacked sort of the punch of the first one. And maybe you can't recapture that first one because the the like mechanism of it is that it is sort of a twist and it is sort of like this amazing like turnaround where you leave the world as we know it and go into this like higher concept science fiction thing. So you kind of can't do that over and over again. So maybe it, you know, it's just naturally was never going to amount to being as good, but I still feel like the mark was missed and just the quality, like and like the villains in the in the other ones, the like set pieces, the even the like the look of them just felt a little like off from center of the of the original.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Yeah, yeah. I feel I totally get what you're saying because there is, I think, as that story with Neo, I feel like was kind of complete from the first one. I mean, you could have them pop in, but I it would have been cool to see more of a expanded of that universe, you know what I mean? And that's how I maybe would have done if I if I had all the money and had were in charge, I would have done more of a here's here's the rest of like the matrix, but here's like other people that maybe are connected to Neo in some way in some way, but like it's not his story, just felt kind of complete.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:04

Yeah, I think that would have been the way to go is like, all right, now what is what does it look like for this other person that maybe has powers, but sort of like it's the you know, it's this version of the powers. I always thought it could really work well as a television show in like in like an FX way, you know, sort of like the way that like Fargo or Alien or you know, um Noah Howley, like that guy can really take like the tone and the and the like essence of something and expand upon it. I would love to see someone like him get their hands on the matrix and just like oh yeah, make a show of it because it's like the universe, the world that they build in that first movie is there's a lot of room to play around with those concepts and the those visuals. Um, so I think it could and and the same for men in black. I think that would also make an amazing show in the like kind of like really wacky like X-File sort of way.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:04

Yeah, damn. That would be I would, I would, if I were had in money to invest, I would invest in those two things.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:10

Yeah, I would make either one of those shows if I like had a career.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

You and me both, uh, which kind of leads me into uh another question. So it's like you know, we talked about how Men in Black affected you. I mean, you know, you mentioning be having the Matrix being like one of your favorite movies as an adult. How do you feel that it affects you and your artistry? And it if it does.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Well, I mean, I'm really into that kind of like just the the like industrial, like you know, cyberpunk kind of feeling that that movie has, like on a visual visceral level, like that has always really resonated with me in terms of like technology meaning organics. Like those things are are they just like hit me on a deep level. like the the way we interface with technology. Like, you know, I just spend way too much time thinking about like the phone ending up in our brains. And like the the inevitability of uh our our like fusing with technology in a way that we haven't fully thought through before we hit the accept button. Um so in that way like I think all of that makes its way into like what I think about when I'm making an illustration for instance or music or any of those things. It's like kind of commenting on that that element of society in a way and just our willingness to interface with something that we haven't really given a lot of thought to yeah. And so we're willing to kill you on that yeah we're we're willing to like um have the re repercussions of that sort of slap us in the face and like oh shit I wish I'd like given that a little bit more thought. Now I'm addicted to my fucking phone and look I look at TikTok for seven hours a day.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:15

Which is like that's me shitting on myself not anyone else you know oh I I mean I do it too I think you're speaking to all of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

Yeah and it's not seven hours a day that's hyperbole a little bit but uh but yeah it's only six hours a day I promise it's five five and a half tops I swear but no just like the yeah the intersection there of like the the like the horrors and the like um the implication of technology and and the like the lust for futurism and for progress and the the like the pace in which we hunger for it doesn't allow for a lot of contemplation about the repercussions of it. So I mean you know I just think that's like kind of the most powerful thing I take away from the Matrix and is it is sort of in a way the like a thesis of the way that I look at the world as an artist in a sense is through that lens uh which is a little bit bleak but it's not it's not the whole picture but it's why it's why this resonates with me in the way that it does.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

Yeah no that's that yeah I feel you on all of that because I uh as you were mentioning just like how we are becoming so fused with technology I saw an ad for the Google glasses where it's like oh you wear them all the time and you can like scroll as you're you could be talking to somebody and you're not talking you're looking at something else. You know what I mean? And these people are just so like yeah dude it's I watched a YouTube video about it and I'm like this is crazy. Like there's this video that I watched from this YouTuber he's like I wore Google glasses for 24 hours or whatever and like some challenge.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

And he was um he was in like a cab or an Uber or an Uber and uh he kept like asking his glasses questions but the Uber driver thought that they were having a conversation and he says oh no sorry I'm talking to my glasses and it's just like it just was just so bleak to realize like oh this is like this is fucked up you know yeah I mean I don't know if you remember like the feeling of those early times where people had the headsets in and you couldn't tell and they're just talking to themselves and you're like oh and then you realize oh fuck they're like on the phone or something. And it's just gonna be more and more removed where we're having like full like interactions with the glasses or whatever. It's just like it's pulling us further and further away from like tangible visceral human interaction where we're like making eye contact and shit. And that's just gonna like right really fuck everybody up.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:04

Dude I I feel you like I think about you know and I I've used chat GBT before and like and like chat bots before just to ask general questions about some things but like I and I don't want to ever judge anybody for using what they have to use to get by but it's like you know when people when I find out that people basically become the plot of her and like have these full-on relationships with these robots and like use it for like comfort and for therapy like I I did uh and I'm admitting this on my podcast to for all 12 12s of you to listen to and judge me on um at least dozens of people will listen to this episode um uh if we're lucky and uh I I've I tried I tried it once I've once to like do like a like treat it almost like a therapist I was like what is it gonna give me back because it's like is it gonna give me a bunch of like if I ask for the scientific articles and like the references will it give me those and it's interesting because it will give you like it'll be it'll summarize things with like references and cite citations and stuff but it always like but the but the tone is never consistent. It's like you know it's like yes this person does not hate you and you're in a good place with them and then immediately can immediately can be like oh well no you're right like they hate you and you should just stop being friends with them. And it's just kind of crazy the inconsistency that people are using it genuinely to like figure out the rest of their lives you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Yeah I mean it again it's it's an interesting thing to to see the way that like especially a fledgling technology like chat GPT or or that that type of AI, the way that people will apply it to their lives you know if you think about like the advent of the internet and and the all the hope that everyone had for this like information super highway that we all had at the touch of our fingertips. And then how people basically just used it to like yell at each other and like jerp off or whatever. And and you know but it's like the other side the other side of that is that we you know it has connected people and communities and like artists and and and and like there there's there is the flip side of of all these coins where like if we if we think about AI an application of like medical technology or like you know using it in any of these ways that will accelerate computation towards a goal of like helping people excellent. Yeah but if you're just gonna use it like in a kind of uh or like even companionship I think that we are in maybe the loneliest time that we've ever encountered in terms of society. So it's like if that keeps somebody from self-harming or it just like stabilizes them in some way then maybe that's a good thing that we've like that we're moving towards it's just like it's also being used in such a way that it's like all right if you're going to write music and make art and film and all these things that we are reliant on as our as a form of like sustenance for ourselves if it's going to be made by the computer right I I don't know it's like it's just so tricky. It's just really fascinating and scary and tricky.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:24

It is because yeah like I do think it is it can be a good tool for people to yeah you mentioned the the the loneliness epidemic that's going on I think for everybody at this point that having something to bounce ideas off of I think can be helpful. It's just like scary that like it's not an altruistic tool because it's like storing your data, storing the information that you give it. But it's fucking scary to think about where it's like oh I've I have this little robot that I can talk to and and it's and it does help people I think come down from certain or just like just work through stuff that maybe you can't afford a therapist or your friends are busy or you don't want to bother people with the same problem again. But it's also like man the somebody somebody out there has all of this data on you and like any screenshots or whatever and that's just like what's really what's really scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

And the intent of it is for consumer consumerism. It's intended to sell me something which is scary as shit. It's like all right I was just like trying to feel a little bit better but now you have uh you have another you have one up on me.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

It's like you know like you've been listening and now you know that like boots will like a new pair of boots or like like uh you know this t-shirt will make me feel a little bit better right right that's true it's like yo I was like all of a sudden I get an a targeted ad you know for like oh yeah like I should buy this I think that it would change my whole life if I got this you know it's um it's all it's just so uh yeah there is a lot of good but there's a lot of a lot of scary to it yeah a lot of it is insidious which uh yeah you know again I think it's fine if people like had a little bit more um like patience or or desired agency to kind of choose what which parts of it to take or leave behind but I think it's just right people in this day and age it's like yeah I'll just take the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

You know why am I gonna why am I gonna read the fine print?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:25

Just like get me to the get me to the thing I want right exactly it's like Apple with all their fucking terms and conditions like how long they are it's like no I no one's ever read through that and it was like yeah I want to download more music I want to have the new software update I don't give a shit and then you don't know what you're signing away right it's like yeah yeah okay you can have my soul it's fine just like give me the new album give me the new TV show like I'm just trying to watch my stories like what do I need a soul for exactly um well I mean like all of that like I I think that I think that's why I think the Matrix is such a timeless piece of art is because it like audience to talk about all of these things that like I think that um that some of like the best art it is like very clear on what the movie is but also like the interpretation you know I think like being able to take that and that's why I think it's one of the best of its genre you know definitely yeah and that's why I love science fiction is because it is it's taking these these things about humanity or society or what have you and and fucking with them so that it makes you think about them in a different way. Yeah no and it's um yeah God bless the Matrix uh for all the wonderful things it's given and unfortunately the red pill idiots unfortunate about that too but yeah I mean you know you know if they would have figured out how to turn you know like happy gilmore into that or like you know the there's oh I know you know some other movie they would have been like like latched on to it's like I think unfortunately like the the matrix just has such like uh like kind of big symbolism that you can kind of fill that up with whatever you want yeah and and yeah yeah that's what idiots do they definitely do uh well Michael I just have a couple more questions for you then I'll let you go I don't want to don't want to to keep you too long um I know you it's uh it's Friday night you got hot plans I'm sure you got a lot going on tonight yeah I'm gonna watch big brother with my roommate I mean I I love that you're still working working through it yeah I I also I I have a challenge to watch the first 20 minutes of good luck chuck uh which we oh yeah uh my my friends uh the twins Laura and Isabel who you've had on your show uh yeah and they're timing yeah yeah they they uh they watched the first 20 minutes of that movie and and turned it off but they they all they'll make me watch something that they like hated to just kind of make like commiserate with me about how terrible it was so yeah this is this is one of them where I mean I I fully never wanted to watch that movie um but it's worth it to just like have something to shit on for a little while you know oh for sure I can I can handle 20 minutes of of that I've I've watched yeah of the dang cook Jessica Alba starring vehicle god that movie is like oh I know this is not the movie we we chose to talk about but that movie is like that would be no one's favorite um but it is one that I think about somewhat often because I do feel like I am always that like like middle play that like halfway home before the guy that I'm dating actually finds love of his life.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:04

Oh you're Chuck you're the you're you're the good looking Chuck okay I think I am Chuck.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:08

I think that I uh and I I've also been a really good matchmaker for people so I'm like well cool I guess then I'm just gonna go fuck myself over here in the corner then and while everyone I'll be happy you know it's like well at least I have a sense of humor.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:21

So yeah if you ever do an episode by yourself you'll watch good luck Chuck and talk about it just like into oblivion.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:27

But uh but anyway so my final few questions for you uh what are the correlations you what are the correlations you see between Men in Black and the Matrix well like I said I was saying before I think they're both very much about like uh your reality being altered in a way that like is uh like opening the world up um in a way that like you can't come back from sort of yeah I guess in in men in black they can just like uh neuralize you and and you can like forget everything and in the Matrix there's that one character Joe Pantiliano who wants to like be put back in the battery pack and like eat the steak and whatever which seems like they were they were never gonna do that for him.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:19

But anyway but no just like that this idea of like the the the world isn't what you know it is there's like there's this other side to it that's either like kind of wonderful and chaotic in the case of men in black or like horrific and uh dystopian in the case of the Matrix. But both of them are we you know we take we we we get we get brought along through a single character to reveal a a new a new world that they had to contend with um and I think that both of those films were just like they they came along for me at a time where you know being a teenager is that in a lot of ways. You're just on to the new horizon of as you're going into adulthood it's like the world opens up bigger and bigger and then you have to like you have to make all these choices. Are you going to be you know are you gonna be Neo or are you gonna be cypher? Are you gonna be the piece of shit that like you know tries tries to stay a big baby or are you gonna try to like grow and elevate yourself. Yeah yeah yeah um so yeah they were just really both incredibly formative and they felt like sort of like the matrix feels like it's a direct kind of continuation of men in black in the way that like big tent pole like blockbuster science fiction cinema kind of had this moment of like taking off.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:12

And that era of movies is just so incredible like we didn't get to really touch on it but 1999 like an insane insane movie movie year just like oh for sure that came out just like a a wild wild year for movies oh for sure I I say 1999 and 2001 were great years for America when it comes to cinema and not much else yeah there was that one thing that happened in 2001 I don't remember though let's not let's not get into it that's a different podcast yeah that's that's a that's the remembrance podcast we made a couple movies about that we could talk about later right that is a core memory though so it does it does a lot definitely it is for sure a core memory um my last two which are my rapid fire questions but answer them at your leisure however like fast or slow you'd like to answer them uh so for both movies if you had to recast both movies with all Muppets but keep one human in each movie who would the human bemot yeah okay so it it in uh men in black all Muppets except for Riptorn would be the same I feel like he's just like upset all the time and he's a curmudgeon so just having a bunch of wacky Muppets running around and him just still being like would be really fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:50

And then who like my first instinct is to say keep Agent Smith and then everybody else is a Muppet but I think that's less fun less fun. I think keep Keanu Reeves and then everybody else is a Muppet because it's like that way uh maybe they just become Muppets when he like goes through the other side oh I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:16

Yeah I think keep keep Neo keep Keanu Reeves yeah because he needs to be able to be neutral but also be like these fucking puppets are talking to me now it's like what because the whole movie he's just like huh it's pretty much saying huh or like whoa like the whole time it reminds it reminds me that reminds me of that uh awful War of the world movie that came out with Ice Cube where it's just on zoom uh and he all his reactions are just whoa or oh shit that's all he does the whole movie reacting to a computer screen and that runs that's pretty much Neo the for the first movie um and my my final question for you um is what is your favorite what's your go-to snack and drink at the theater at home what do you gotta have that's that's changed quite a bit over the years if you want like a broad answer uh so I like I used to love some popcorn but then I worked in a movie theater and that kind of ruined me on fun popcorn.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:26

Yeah and then from there you know I used to get like the cookie dough uh things but then it was like I guess I can't afford to be buying this candy at the theater anymore. So I would like hit the gas station then you yeah then it's like probably gonna be peanut butter MMs and sometimes like a flask with bourbon in it. Yeah I'd say like something peanut buttery I don't know why but like you know Reese's animal crackers or like or peanut butter MMs or something like that. Something chocolatey something really buttery and then yeah drink I yeah I'll love a good soda if I if I'm feeling rich I'll I'll get a fountain drink.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:25

Yeah and then I'll just like pee my brains out when I leave the theater I I feel that an audience I've seen movies with Michael multiple times uh and I can confirm nutter nutter butters are the nutty buddy crackers you brought in I remember when we saw centers and then uh you and Travis who was also on the podcast got sodas for the Snow White Cups. Oh right yeah yeah uh still have that yeah that was uh Mickey 17 plastic right right yeah what about what about you I want to know like what's your go-to and we and we've been to the theater together several times but uh I don't know that I've noticed like a go-to for you you know and that's because like I'm not much of an eater when it comes to movies like I watch it like at home I'll just like eat whatever the fuck I'm usually eating dinner while watching a movie but in the theater I don't like hearing myself chew you know what I mean because I also like I want to be able to hear the movie. So any kind of I don't care if other people it doesn't matter if other people chew around me but I just don't want to I can't handle hearing myself do that while trying to focus.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:31

So I don't move it louder in your own head.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:33

Yeah and it's also just like do I need to be doing this right now um so I don't really eat when I see movies but I always will drink um I like like a nice beer or like a whiskey but or or wine usually if I can do that. Or like if I'm not drinking uh alcohol I'll do like a a LaCroix or something like that uh or like a lemonade. But yeah generally stick with a drink, no snacks um at the theater. And so that's probably why never seen me with anything. Um uh yeah I definitely yeah I d and I'll sneak in a flask. I brought a flask to when we saw stop making sense a couple years ago for your birthday. Um yeah I don't think it I don't think it ever made it down to you. I think it kind of stayed on one side of like the row.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:16

It stayed amongst like two or three people I feel like yeah that'll happen when you're uh if you go with a larger group it's hard to get the flask all the way down the other end or like you're chairing candy it's like at some point somebody says no and then it never makes it past the no and then goes back.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:33

So it's understandable.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:36

Yeah um yeah that's that's my pick uh which is not not very exciting. Um I've mentioned this before on the pod but like going to the movie theater is like me going to church. It's such like a I must definitely definitely it's a religious experience and for me food just like it just it gets in the way for me sometimes you know in general food gets in the way of me living my life sometimes is I have to eat and that can be annoying but you know well you know you should take communion with you next time.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:03

Yeah I should yeah I could just bring some crackers you know I already have the wine you know so right um no but I I I completely understand and I think I treat it with the same reverence uh except for the the the food doesn't bother me but I I get what you're saying and I I agree.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:22

Yeah I I don't know why I just like struggle with hearing myself do anything that I don't want to hear myself do and chewing just really gets amplified. Yeah the few times out of necessity I've eaten in a theater where it's like I do a double feature or triple feature sometimes where it's like been here for six hours I should probably like get some popcorn or like a hot dog or something you know and uh then I force myself to eat it while watching something but uh just so I don't like pass out, you know, but but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:50

Yeah I feel like you and I we should go see the Hunger Games and just like like just gorge gorge ourselves the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:57

Dude I'm down. I think that'd be great. I think that'd be a we could do we could live stream it for the for the for the Patreon.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:07

Yeah we're we're we're gonna like see how many hot dogs we can eat while we're watching the Hunger Games.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:12

Have our own like hot dog eating contest um oh man well I would I would do that I think that would be I would I'm open to a challenge you know I can I I love movies but I love uh I love competition so I would be down for that too. Um but yeah we'll see if we can work some yeah we'll make something happen. But Michael thanks so much for doing the show I really appreciate you being on the show so much for having me. Of course we'll we'll this was awesome oh my god this was so much fun I've been looking forward to this episode um can you let the people know where they can find you what you got going up where your music's at you know you do you have any anything any any regular shows that you do regularly regular you know you know what I mean yeah uh so first off I have a residency at the Springwater the second Friday of every month where I host a show a comedy game show called the Psycho's Quiz Show um and you should come check that out be a contestant you can win a little bit of cash it's always uh it's always a fun time you've been on yeah um yeah a couple of times uh yeah and so then I'm in a band called the Chewers you can find us on Spotify and then you can follow me for random social media shit at the mouthful uh on Instagram where I post just whatever I want because I don't care amazing uh hell yeah well uh Michael again thanks for being on um and audience uh we'll catch you next week this has been core memory a podcast about movies and I'm your host Courtney Warner thank you so much for listening to today's episode uh please feel free to like and subscribe on anywhere that you get your podcast uh would absolutely love the uh the support on there if you enjoyed today's episode and any of our other episodes also we are on our Instagram at core memorypod please feel free to give us a follow on there as well if you want any behind the scenes tidbits or any kind of fun visuals on there. And again thank you for listening and we hope that you'll listen again soon