Season 2: Episode 8 The weight of the scene

Season 2: Episode 8

🕵️‍♀️Some scenes stay with you.
In this episode, I’m talking about one of the hardest calls first responders and investigators encounter suicide scenes.

We discuss:
• Common mechanisms seen in suicide investigations
• Differences often observed between men and women in suicide methods
• What these scenes look like from an investigative perspective
• The emotional impact these calls can have on first responders, investigators, dispatchers, medical personnel, and crime scene professionals

Because May is Mental Health Awareness Month, I also wanted to talk honestly about something we don’t discuss enough in this profession: taking care of yourself mentally after repeatedly responding to traumatic scenes.

Checking in on your coworkers matters.
Using agency resources matters.
Seeking help matters.

You can be strong at your job and still need support.

This episode is educational, real, and focused on both the investigative side and the human side of the work.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello and welcome to Through the CSI Lens Behind the Yellow Tape. I'm Christina Breakman and I will be your host on this episode. We are in season two. This is episode eight. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Hopefully, you're staying connected with us, and you can do that by connecting on Facebook, Instagram, or sending us an email. I love to hear your suggestions and feedback as well as the things that you're loving, you're not loving, or even something you'd like to have me covered that you've always been curious about. So make sure you're following along so you don't miss any episodes and share with your family and friends. So again, we can continue to grow our community here at through the CSI lens. So if you're with me last time, we talked about a suicide case that I had worked, which was kind of unusual, atypical. And if you recall, it was the elderly woman who was located in the trash can in her side yard, which when I even say that sounds odd, unrealistic, but it was actually very true. And you know, it's just a reminder that if you're a first responder, whether you're going in delayed or right after the incident happens, or maybe somebody calls because there's a person in distress, you just never know what the outcome is going to be. You can never be 100% prepared for everything, obviously. But again, you just fall back on your training, your education that you have to help navigate the scene that you're at. And for investigators, whether you're a detective, private security, private investigations, or crime scene, like myself, you can't go into the scene with preconceived notions because you could miss something, something valuable. So, yes, you want to be able to discern, but and you want to be able to fall back on your training and your education and your experience, but you also need to be mindful that not every situation is the same and anything is possible. So this is a prime case. You know, I 100% believed that it was a homicide. You couldn't have told me anything differently. It was highly unlikely that it could be anything other than that. Of course, making that assumption without seeing the body, without seeing the weapon, without seeing the inside of the trash can. I mean, all the variables that you need to be able to make that determination, I hadn't even done. But based off what I thought was possible or plausible, I just didn't see that coming. Especially given that they'd had some arguments in the relationship. Not that that would justify or lead to a homicide, but you know, it just kind of weighed in that direction. And no previous incidents, no that we were aware of, no previous threats or were ever made that we were aware of. Of course, we don't know what's going on with somebody unless they share that with us or we recognize the signs. So that was a learning experience for me. But it also will take me into this episode. So I'm going to put a disclaimer on here and say this can be triggering for some people, this can be painful. We're going to talk about a very sensitive subject, but obviously, it happens in crime scene, law enforcement, firefighting, and medical the medical field, and you may know someone or have been personally touched by something like this. So, that being said, I thought we would talk a little bit more about some of the suicide cases that I have worked. And I do this as we close the month of May up, which is mental health awareness month. So I thought this would be a good end cap to that month because it definitely deserves conversations. It definitely deserves awareness. Again, you just really never know what someone is going through. And, you know, what it whether it be a medical diagnosis, whether it be something that's happened to disrupt their life, whether it be a marriage, a divorce, a terminal illness, a loss of a loved one, a pet, a job, or maybe there's somebody that has dealt with mental health issues their entire life. It just the gamut is huge. So I thought I would talk about a few of the scenes that I worked and some of the similarities that I noticed in the scenes that I did work. So those scenes are never easy to go to, right? Because somebody close to them typically has found them. So you have that whole dynamic that's going on in the scene. It's highly emotional and rightfully so. And so you really want to go in there knowing that and being mindful, being respectful of whatever those family members, loved ones, significant others may be feeling. And they may lash out at you at the scene because they don't know what else to do. You know, that's a lot for one person or a family to come to understand or reconcile with. So it may not be uncommon for them to be angry when you show up. They may say things to you that are snarky or hurtful because they're hurting and they don't understand. I mean, I have heard people blame officers for not getting there soon enough. Why didn't you get here sooner? You could have stopped this, you could have prevented this. Imagine being that first responder when that's all that they want to do is to get there and to help stop something from that happening. So there are a lot of facets to those type of scenes. Obviously, by the time I get there, it's been done and said. We don't typically go out to suicide attempts. Maybe I've gone out to a couple of those, and mostly it's because those were those were suspicious in nature. So maybe somebody didn't die, they were significantly injured or had injuries, and the scene based off what the officer observed looked a little bit suspicious. So I may have gone out to a few of those, but typically we don't, as far as crime scene investigators, we don't go out to attempts. But again, you're you're really walking into a highly charged, highly emotionally charged environment for the most part. Officers typically do a good job of removing loved ones from the immediate area. Sometimes we try to remove them from the home altogether. So whether they're outside or they go to a neighbor's house or something like that, just so that they're not there and they don't see you coming in and coming out and taking evidence and your camera because they feel very like it. So what I've been told is that they can feel that it can be very intrusive. And people are very protective of their home and their property. And then when you have somebody coming in who's a total stranger, they have a camera on them and they're carrying evidence, that can feel very heavy for them. So if I can, I usually like to approach them or have the officer tell them, okay, crimes or crime scene investigators coming out. This is a normal process. He or she's going to come out, they're going to take a few photographs, they may collect evidence like cell phones or notes, things like that, so that the family is aware. Whether or not they understand that at the time, I don't know, but we at least bring that to their awareness. And then, of course, they're always informed that the medical investigator will be coming out because that is a significant thing. To see your loved one being wheeled out of your home in a body bag is a whole nother level. Like it's just, I can't explain to you what that looks like from an outsider. It's devastating. So we have to prepare them for that visual if they want to say like a last goodbye to their loved one. Typically, we don't recommend that, especially depending on the type of wound. But there are loved ones that they don't care. They want to see them, they want to say goodbye, they want to say a prayer, something like that. They all have their things. So that can also be challenging to, you know, work in that environment as well. You know, rightfully so, because you're human, you have emotions, and you understand that they've just faced a tragic loss. So a lot of these go into responding to these death scenes. And you do have to kind of mentally prepare yourself for this, you know, especially if it's a young child or you know, somebody like maybe it's an elderly person and you're taking care of your grandparents or your aging parents, or maybe you had a sibling that, you know, committed suicide or a loved, another loved one. I mean, you just have to keep those things in mind when you go out to these scenes. So typically what I would see was most of the time, in my experience, I can't speak for nationwide, right? So in my experience, most suicides were done by men, and most of their means was by gun. And usually it was, you know, a wound to the head or face. Women, on the other hand, I did not go to many women suicides, you know, whether it be a juvenile or an adult woman. For whatever reason, in my experience of my 15 years in crime scene investigation, I did not have a lot myself. That doesn't say that my co-workers didn't, but I personally did not. I only had maybe a handful. And of those suicides, I had one woman who, I guess I should say one woman who shot herself in the head. And most, I think the others, I one of them was through pills, medication type thing, and another one was a hanging. So typically the suicides I worked were either a shooting or a hanging. Those were the typical scenes that I would go to. I mean, they could be hanging from their garage rafter, they could be hanging from their bedroom door, they could be hanging from their closet. Any of those things are true. Shootings, usually they are in their bedroom, or I had a few that were out in their backyard on their patio. And then I do know of a co-worker. We'll talk about that call because that was pretty interesting. I mean, not interesting, but it was tragic. So, my experience, mostly men, mostly by gun, and then by hanging, and you obviously approach those scenes all the same way, right? Methodically, you're going to take your photographs, you're going to look for anything that may corroborate what you're seeing. So, handwritten notes would be something that you would photograph. You may even collect it. You may look at cell phone text messages or listen to voice messages, all those things that you can also photograph and can't really do that with audio recording. But typically, we would let the family know that we're going to collect the phone, and we would then just collect the cell phone. Or if it's something on social media and it's open and I have access to it, I may snap a couple photos of those images. But the fundamentals are the same, right? I'm gonna meet with my officer, he or she's going to tell me what happened. They're going to give me the information about the decedent. I'm gonna ask them about drug use, alcohol use, what type of weapon, any history, things like that. You know, have they ever tried this before? Have they made suicidal statements in the past? You know, what's what's a little bit of their health history? Do they take any medications? Do they take any recreational drugs? Those are things that I'm going to ask, and I'm gonna write those down, those facts or the information from the officer down. And then that's gonna help me walk through that crime scene and make my own observations because officers remember when they're responding, it's very traumatic, it's very high intensity, a lot of adrenaline, a lot of emotions. So they don't always see everything, right? Because they're looking through a different camera view than what I'm looking for. So, you know, again, I'm gonna walk through that room or the car or the back patio, wherever they may be, the garage, and I'm gonna look for anything that looks out of place other than the decedent, right? I'm gonna look for anything that again corroborates what happened, and then I'm going to take copious notes, so very detailed notes while I'm on scene. Because you may think your memory will hold up, but I'm telling you, by the time you get to the end of your 10-hour shift or 12 or 13 or 14-hour shift, however long you're working, or just even getting through that scene, because it could be a difficult scene for you, you may not remember things. So it's it's best, it's always best practices to write everything down. So serial numbers, models, brands, dates, prescription medication information, how many pills are still in the container, recreational drugs, you know, foil, residue, syringes, pills, green leafy substance, white, powdery substance, pill, whatever it is. You know, you're gonna write all of that down, as well as the condition of the body, where you see wounds at, do you have any stippling that you see? So that's typically indicative of a close range shot. So it's like black soot that's around the wound. You're gonna look for exit wounds, you're going to look for the hand position, find out are they right or left-handed, especially if they have a weapon like a gun. Um, where is the gun at? You're gonna get information about the gun, obviously, what you could see from its current location, because you don't want to manipulate anything until the death investigator gets there. Remember, the scene belongs to the police, at least in Maricopa County, and the body belongs to the medical examiner. So we're not gonna do anything with the body or the weapon unless an officer feels like there's a safety issue. Then they might remove the weapon and make it render it safe and secure it in their vehicle until a crime scene arrives. It just depends on what they what they get when they get there, you know, what they approach when they get there, what the scene's like. So, but typically we don't do any of that. So I would just document the body in its current position. So obviously, if it's a bedroom, I'm taking a picture of the address of the house, I'm taking an exterior photo, front picture of the house to show whoever's looking at the photo where I'm at, right? Because remember, when you're a crime scene investigator, the person typically looking at your photos has never been to that scene. So they're relying on you to paint that story. Show them where you were, where the incident allegedly occurred. And then I would go, let's say if they're in the back bedroom, I would take a picture of the outside of the bedroom to show in the door frame with the doors open, if there's any forced entry in the door, any damage, was it locked, you know, that type of stuff. And then I would make my way around the room where I would photograph from each wall. So basically, you know, facing forward, taking as many photos as I need to document the scene through the ceiling to the floor and everything in between. And I would walk around the room and do that consistently. And then if there's any evidence like notes, pills, drugs, cell phone, any of that information that I think or I feel like is related to the incident, I'm gonna photograph that as well. And we always do that in three, a series of three to start. So we call that in crime scene investigation. We have an overall photograph which shows the image. We have a mid-range photograph which shows the relationship of that evidence to the crime scene. And then we do a close-up or evidence establishing photo, which shows you specifically that specific piece of evidence and any defining features. So identifying features like VIN numbers, serial numbers, condition, damage, any of that. And then we would do another set of photos with evidence placards. So evidence placards can be yellow, orange, green, and they have numbers or letters on them. And we place those next to each piece of evidence that we are going to collect. If we're not collecting it, then we don't need to do that. But if we're going to take it back to the crime lab for analysis, then we need to mark it so that when somebody's looking at our photos and they're looking at our evidence log, they can say, okay, item number one, there's an evidence marker with number one written next to on it, and it's next to the gun. So they know that item number one is the gun. Then we move to a handwritten note. They know that item number two is the handwritten note, and so that's how you kind of identify your evidence in your scene. And when and if you ever have to go to court to testify, it makes it useful to be able to recall what evidence was what as well. So I do that with my evidence. I overall mid-range close-up. And then once I've done that, if I need to take, let's say I have a gun and I've only photographed the top of the gun. Now I need to photograph the other side of the gun. So once that gun's been rendered safe, I've you know removed, opened the chamber, made sure there's no ammunition in there, I removed the magazine, kept it safe. Many ways you can keep it safe. A lot of pistols have, you know, mechanisms on there that allow you to render the weapon safe. Zip ties work really well to keep the chamber open, really making sure that there's nothing in there. Because we always want to approach a gun as it's loaded. And you never know how people have manipulated their personal weapon. So you have to be mindful of that too, because they could have done all kinds of alterations to it that you're not aware of. So every gun you see at a crime scene is automatically loaded. Even if an officer says they've made it safe, it's your responsibility to make sure that weapon is safe before you transport it. So then I would take it to another location. Let's say I took a picture of the gun and it's been rendered safe. Then I would lay a piece of evidence packaging, probably a paper bag, and I would place the gun on its opposite side, and I would photograph that as well. So there we're showing, hey, we're not hiding anything. We're showing how the gun's condition is when we arrived on the scene, and um, then that would be packaged and then submitted obviously to the evidence section. So usually we put guns and gun boxes are specifically for guns. Yes, you can use them for other things other than guns, but that's what the primary purpose is. And we usually zip tie them in place so they're not moving around, so that in the future, if they need to do some test firing in the firearms unit or need to do any fingerprint or biological analysis, they can do that without the risk of contaminating the gun or losing trace evidence. So you never would want to put a loaded gun in a box and submit it. You never want to put ammunition in a gun box with the gun or the magazine. Those are always gonna be separated separately. And I know what you're thinking, you're probably thinking, what are the odds that a bullet or ammunition unfired cartridge would get into a chamber? I know it's ridiculous, but we're not even gonna do that. So we can unload the magazine if we need to and take the magazine and the gun and package those together and then load in like a clamshell, which is a little plastic box, and then put it in an envelope and put all the ammunition in there and make that a separate item, which is typically what we do. That would be best practices. If it is a revolver, typically those do not discharge a projectile, or not a projectile, but a fired cartridge casing, they stay in the cylinder. So you would want to photograph that before you remove those from the cylinder, and that's just an extra extra step that you would want to do. And so, depending on if it's a pistol, automatic, semi-automatic, or a revolver, we're determined how you manipulate that weapon because really you want to do as little as possible just in case they need to do a forensic analysis on there, but you also have to make sure that your rendering is safe. Rifles are a little bit different, shotguns. I had an older gentleman who went out onto the patio and he shot himself with a shotgun, and that's a whole experience. Like, I can't imagine a family member going outside looking for their loved one, and he's dead on their patio with a gunshot wound to the face from a shotgun. Um, it literally destroys the head and the face, literally. So that took me a few minutes. You know, I still think about that guy today, like being on that patio and how he was able to maneuver that shotgun and how like his mental state where he had to be to shoot himself under the chin with a shotgun. Like, I just that's so sad and so scary. And that family member who saw him, like tragic, they're gonna live with that for the rest of their lives. The rest of their lives. That image is never gonna leave their mind. And so that was kind of an experience learning how to, you know, make that shotgun safe in a way that it can be transported, especially my first time because I don't, yeah, wasn't in the habit of collecting shotguns. We don't get a lot of shotguns, more rifles and and handguns. So just learning how to make that safe, render that safe because they have shot shells, we all know that shotguns, and being able to keep that barrel open to some extent so that we don't have to worry about ammunition jumping into the barrel and discharging, right? So obviously, shotguns don't have magazines or clips, as some people like to call them. So removing anything that's in the chamber is going to be important and making sure that barrel is empty and being able to keep that shotgun open so that it doesn't close just in case. So I did work in accidental shooting with two 20-year-old kids who decided to mess around with an AK, not an AK, it was an AR. And the weapon accidentally, supposedly discharged, and one boy was killed, which was crazy to see an AR in a small room. And that one of the firearms examiners that we had at the time, she was awesome to work with. And rarely did firearm examiners come out to our scenes. I will tell you that right now. But she She was one of those that was always willing to go the extra step. And so I learned a few things from her on that scene because I was like, how am I going to make this AR safe? And, you know, they're kind of hard to manipulate, I think personally, if you're not used to using them. And I obviously don't own an I AR, not saying that I don't think you shouldn't, but so she was out there. And because we were questioning, you know, was this an accidental discharge? Was this an intentional shooting? She came out and kind of helped with the reconstruction of that on scene. But one of the things I learned from her is being able to zip tie these ARs, you know, open so that the barrel or ammunition area is exposed. And so together we were able to put a couple zip ties together and then manipulate the weapon in order to make that safe. So I did learn that from her. And then we did some trajectory work and so forth. But to my recollection, that was rolled in accidental shooting, which is totally unfortunate. You have two people who are unfamiliar with the weapon that had probably no business with the weapon or were we not going to be doing anything good with the weapon. And because of that lack of knowledge and training, training, and I'll say that again, training and experience, that incident happened and it never had to. It shouldn't have ever happened. So now that we've talked a little bit about how I would photograph my scene, some of the things I'm going to look for. Obviously, we're going to look for blood spatter. It's not splatter, it's spatter, S-P-A-T-T-E-R. And so you're going to look at some of the patterns that are left behind, especially if you're questioning the integrity or what may have happened at the scene, you know, high velocity, low velocity, impact velocity, things like that. What kind of drip stains? Is there any transfer patterns like swipes or wipes that would indicate the body was moving or the victim was running or walking or staggering or standing? All those things are going to be come into play. And you want them to look like they fit the situation, right? Obviously, I'm not an expert in firearm trajectory work or blood spatter, but I've had a lot of training and experience in that so that at least I can look at it and be like, okay, this isn't adding up. We need to bring somebody out here from the crime lab and have some further analysis done. So that's where they come into play. But you had to have that understanding and that be able to recognize that as well. So yeah, so shootings were a big one. I know I did have a coworker who pretty on in our career, she had, and I'm thankful that I didn't have to go, but I feel bad that she did. I feel bad that the whole situation actually occurred. But it does happen every once in a while where a family, a husband and wife are going through a divorce. And I guess in the process of the divorce, the wife lost custody or visitation rights of the children, which were, I think, two boys, young boys. And so husband comes home or comes to pick up the children. There's some kind of exchange going on. And at the scene, there was a the court documents basically, you know, if you've ever been through family court, it's a grueling process and nobody wins. I'll just say that right now. There was a note on their court documents that said, if I can't have them, nobody can. And she killed both of her boys and herself. And she did that with a gun. I didn't work that scene, but it obviously it was a homicide suicide. And as far as I know, that was one of the only scenes we had like that. So, you know, obviously she worked that scene to the best of her ability, collecting the weapon and documenting it. And that would require homicide come out and help investigate the scene. More, I mean, not just police officers because they're going to be the first responders. And then you have medical coming in, and then you have homicide being contacted, so then they're going to respond, and then they're going to ask for crime scene, and then you're going to work alongside homicide to document the crime scene, which is basically the same thing as you would any other scene, right? You're going to take the same kind of photos, you're going to document similar evidence the same way. You're going to document anything else in the scene that corroborates what happened, the condition of the victims, the suspect, and you know, injuries, wounds, things like that, manipulation of the body. You're going to be photographing the weapon, you're going to be collecting the weapon, any ammunition, also looking for drugs, alcohol, written notes, anything like that. So basically, you're doing the same thing regardless who responds out there with you, because you have a protocol, right? You have policies and procedures that tell you what you need to do. That's the best thing about working in an accredited lab is that you have strict policies and procedures. And you are not allowed to deviate from those unless you have permission or there's a good explanation. And then even then, you have to document your deviation from policy so that you don't get written up, suspended, or fired, right? So policies can't cover everything, but that's when best practices come into play that you've got to use your discretion, your experience, your training, or you need to call the pick up the phone and call somebody with more experience and say, hey, this is what I have, this is what I'm thinking about doing. What do you think? And they're either going to agree with you, or they're going to make another recommendation, or they're going to come out to your scene if they can and they're going to help you. That's the way it should be in crime scene. Because remember, it's very hard to go back once you've already been there and manipulated the scene. And then you lose the integrity of the scene, the chain of custody of the scene. So all that comes into play. One of the other types of suicides I had, like I mentioned, were hangings. And you would think, okay, as a CSI, you're going to go right in there and you're going to take the person down, or medical's going to take the person down. Not necessarily true. I would never do that myself. I would do that at the direction of the death investigator who arrives on scene. We are going to do that together. Sometimes whoever found the body may try to get them down, right? Because if they're calling 911, the 911 operator is going to direct them to try CPR. And how are they going to do CPR if they're hanging from the closet or the door or the garage rafter? So they may try to get them down in order to render life-saving measures. And then if they can't do that, medical will arrive on scene and then they'll determine is the person still alive, has a heartbeat. If not, they'll declare them dead. So typically, as a CSI, you're not going to be doing that until after the fact and medical investigator is on scene. And a death investigator will always come to your suicides. There's never a time in Maricopa that I'm aware of, at least in the city I worked for, that the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's office did not send a death investigator out for a suicide. We're definitely going to be working together in conjunction. So again, a lot of men shooting themselves, a lot of men hanging themselves. I maybe had a handful of women commit suicide, and typically I had one woman who shot herself, and then most of them are going to be through pills or a drug overdose, which makes it hard unless they leave a note or something or make statements saying that they're going to kill themselves by overdosing, which again doesn't happen very often, and then the hanging. So when I we're going to approach those scenes the same way we would anything. We're going to take the same type of photos, we're going to look for evidence, we're going to look for notes, we're going to look for medication, drugs, alcohol, find out about their medical history, their mental health, any statements, any issues going on in their life, any fights, any how many times have the police come to this home? Is there domestic violence? I mean, what's going on in this home? And then once the death investigator gets there and they do their steps, then we would remove the person from wherever they're hanging from. But we're never going to remove the, we're never going to untie them. That makes sense. Like tie, remove the tie from their neck or however they hung themselves. We may remove it from the rafter or the doorknob, things like that, but we're going to keep whatever device they use to hang themselves attached. So the medical examiner can see that for themselves. We will do some measuring. So let's say somebody is hanging in the garage. We are going to use a tape measure to find out how high that garage is. We are going to measure, you know, how high from the rafter to the floor that the body is. We are going to measure the rope or the device apparatus that is actually being used, right? And then once the person is removed, we would measure that apparatus as is that way. So, but again, we're never going to cut that from their neck. I mean, medics might do that if the person is still alive, so as a heartbeat is still breathing. But as far as the CSI, we're past that point. So we're going to work together with the death investigator to remove that person and then complete the rest of our photographs at that point. I did have an elderly male. Well, this was a first for me, an elderly male who was sick. I don't remember what all his diagnoses were, but he was much and much older. And he decided to end his life by injecting himself with his wife's insulin medication. And so that was a first for me. And that was very, very sad, right? Because you had a couple that had been together for decades, you know, navigating life, I'm sure, and illness and health and all the things that come with, you know, a long lifespan. And at some point he decided that he couldn't go on. My heart broke for his wife. I although I don't think she was surprised because, you know, obviously she was in shock when we were there, but I don't think she expected him to use her medication to kill himself. But he we found the syringes in the bed and they were for insulin, and he was not diabetic. So obviously that contributed to his death. So again, I'm photographing that scene the same. I'm also collecting those syringes in case they need to do any analysis on what was actually in the syringes, because we can't take, you know, we can't take it for its word whether what what it the syringe is labeled as, right? So if the homicide, because they handle suicides as well, homicide detective wants those syringes or what was in the sub the substance that may be remaining in the syringe is tested, we would definitely test it. Because you never know, like maybe there's something facetious going on there, maybe there's a life insurance policy involved. I mean, there's so many things that could contribute to a loss of life. So down the road, maybe family members think it's suspicious and they want it investigated so they could always test to make sure there wasn't anything else in the syringes that could have contributed to that person's death. So you just have to always, even though you think you know what you're facing or you're seeing at the scene and you have it figured out for the most part, you just never know when the evidence that you're collecting may come up come in handy, come in, you know, have significant value in the future. So I did have that elderly male commit suicide by insulin. That was a first for me. And then, of course, multiple men shooting themselves, typically in the head. That was always their choice, I guess, for lack of a better word. I never saw anybody shoot themselves twice, although I've heard of that happening. Collected various weapons from antique revolvers to semi-automatics to ARs to shotguns to rifles, you name it. I've collected those. They can be a little bit intimidating because, you know, unless you use them every day or work around them or an avid hunter or marksman or whatever, gun collector, you just really never know what somebody's done to their weapon, and you never would want to cause an accidental discharge, right? So those are some typical suicides that I handled, and they were never easy, but again, you know, you learn somehow to disassociate from those types of scenes, right? Because somebody has to go out there and document what happened. Families will have questions months down the road, and so it's your job to go out there and be able to document it to the best of your ability. I did have in my career, I I didn't have too many teenagers commit suicide, but I did have one teenage boy, I don't remember how old he was, maybe 15, 14, somewhere 14 to 16 years old. And he went into his parents' bedroom and committed suicide by a gun in his parents' bedroom. So they came home and found him on the floor. And I thought to myself, wow, that's a statement. I don't know what was going on in that home. I don't know what was going on in the relationship between the son and the parents. I don't know what was going on with that young man mentally, physically, none of that. But I thought that was impactful for me because it made a statement for you to go into your parents' bedroom, use your parents' weapon, know where that weapon is at, and kill yourself with intention. It wasn't accidental. There was no accidental discharge, and die in your parents' bedroom. I was like, wow. I mean, as a parent myself, I really that one kind of struck home with me because I had a teenage son at the time. I had weapons in the house at the time. He was knew that I had weapons in the house. He didn't know where they were at, and he didn't know how many. He just knew that I had guns. I just thought to myself, what how how that would have impacted me if I was the parent coming home and finding my son in my bedroom committing suicide by my weapon. It just, my heart really broke for that family. My heart broke for that young man, you know, like he was he obviously was hurting for some reason or another. And this was the only thing he thought he could do to escape that. And I thought how sad and how much we've, as a society, failed our community of young kids who are suffering more than ever with mental health illness, our first responders, medical professionals. I'll even throw teachers in there because Lord have mercy on those education teachers in the elementary, junior high, high school. I don't know how you all do that. But, you know, there's always been a big stigma, especially in law enforcement on mental health. And I think for the most part, first responders and posit in other positions like crime scene, we we never felt, and I could probably say this still to some extent, felt safe, discussing that with one another, discussing that with supervision, uh, trusting peer support. I mean, I've heard stories where peer support has leaked information that shouldn't have gotten out to supervision and it had a detrimental effect on that employee. I mean, obviously, at some point, if there's a safety concern, that's one thing. But to be malicious in that sharing of information, that's a whole nother thing. But so for me, suicides were a big part of my career. It was just something that we got used to going to, unfortunately. And you kind of have to leave the emotion in your van, which I drove a van, so that's why I say that, at the door, and be able to look at the scene methodically, unbiased, unemotionally to the best of your ability. And just realize that you're there for the victim. Yes, I still call them a victim, even if they chose to do that, and just be able to document and you know, kind of preserve the evidence that would indicate that they chose to do this. This was free will to that extent. And again, the photographs are going to be the same, the evidence collection is going to be the same. You're going to submit that to your evidence section, and then if the detective or police officer decides that something needs to be analyzed, then that is always there. It's been preserved and it's been documented through photographs, and they can do that at a later time. So it's always good, better to collect than not, because you can't go back. And then just as a CSI, you know, just being respectful of the family, being respectful of the people there, and just being mindful, you know, trying not to be intrusive, even though the very act of your physical being there is intrusive. And I just try to remember that when I do go out to those scenes. But in my experience, most of my scenes are been men, most of them are by shooting, and most of them are guns that they own. And then hangings were also, again, as I said, we're the next thing. Not too many women, definitely not teenagers, teenage girls. I never had that in my career, thank God. And yeah, so I'm sure there may have been overdoses in my career that were intentional by women. I did have, now that I speak of that, I did have a young girl who checked into a hotel. Now she was intentional. She checked into a hotel and she did commit suicide in there, but she took pills now that I recall. And the housekeeper found her, or the person that would come in and clean the room because she hadn't checked out. And what I learned about this individual is that she came from a very successful family. And so there were a lot of demands, I guess, a lot of expectations put on her, and apparently those weighed heavily on her. She did leave some notes behind. And I think it was a cultural thing, that whole expectation and the weight, and you need to be a doctor, or you need a neuroscientist, or you know, astronaut, or physics, something like that. And based on the notes that she wrote, you could tell that she felt like she was falling short. And that just made me sad because to have that kind of pressure put on you by family, or even if she the family didn't put that pressure on her, and she thought that they put that pressure on her, because you just never know, right? Like this is her perspective, and her obviously her mental state was not well, so you had to remember that as well. So not putting the blame on her family specifically, but just to have that kind of pressure and just thinking I can't escape this and I need out, and this is my only way, you know. And she did take pills for that, so I do remember that, but she thought it all out. This wasn't a spontaneous incident. This was I'm gonna kill myself, I'm gonna move check into a hotel, I'm gonna take these pills, I'm gonna leave this note, and I'm out. Peace out to everybody. So I did have that. I did feel bad for the housekeeper because she's got walking. I don't know how many times she's walked into somebody who had died in those hotel rooms. But you know, you always feel bad for people finding that because that's just not normal, right? Like that seeing somebody dead is not normal. So I did have that again, photographing it the same way, documenting the pill bottle, documenting what the pills look like, how many pills were in there, collecting the notes and the and the suspected drugs, and obviously medical death investigators coming out. So we're going to be documenting the condition of the body and so forth. So all that is pretty standard. And then again, if the pills needed to be analyzed by toxicology, then they could do that. And then the body was transported for autopsy by the medical examiner's office. So lastly, I just kind of want to say that, you know, in law enforcement, and I'm gonna speak to that in general, and I'm not trying to exclude anybody, but that's my 30 years of experience working in various jobs in law enforcement. There is a lot of stigma still attached to that, but you see more people talking about it now. You see agencies developing peer support groups, offering mental health care. Sometimes you're gonna be voluntold to go to places because of the incident you faced. I myself was voluntoled more than once to go see a mental health provider because of something that I faced in the work field through my profession, and it's never fun. You're gonna feel like a weak, you're gonna feel weak, you're not gonna understand your reaction. None of your friends and family are gonna understand. Your coworkers will see you struggle, but they will run from you because they don't want to be affiliated with you. They would rather make you feel like something is wrong with you than help you. And that was my experience over and over and over and over again, with the exception of maybe one person who actually wasn't in my unit, who was actually a police officer, but I had to reach out to him to get help because he's the only one I trusted at the time. And then when you come back to work, nobody wants to talk to you. I don't know what it is. The stigma, the if they get close to you and talk to you about that, then they have to recognize their own internal battles from what they're dealing with at work and what they're seeing and what they're exposed to. I don't I don't have an answer for that. I can't speak for them. But I can tell you that I know I was that one person in my unit. So for instance, we had a shooting, officer-involved shooting, and one of our crime scene personnel was there at that shooting. And during that incident, the officer clearing the area pulled his gun on that crime scene personnel. So here she was facing, and mind you, it was dark. Anybody could have been at that scene because it was a although it was a secured scene, it wasn't, right? There was a vehicle obstructing his view and her view. And so when they connected, she was looking down the barrel of a loaded gun. And then she was able to get out of his way, right? Thank God he didn't shoot her. Thank God he didn't shoot her because he'd already discharged his weapon, I think at that point, or maybe it was shortly after that point, I can't remember. And she was able to get to safety. I kid you not. I kid you not, after this happened, I said to the supervisor, I'm like, has anybody checked on her to make sure she's okay? Oh, she's fine, nothing happened. It's no big deal. Literally. And I looked at the supervisor and I'm like, I hope you're kidding. She just was looking down the barrel of a weapon by an officer in the dark in an area that she thinks she should be secure in. And you just you're gonna brush it off and act like it's no big deal and she's fine. I'm like, no, somebody needs to go check on her and make sure she's okay and make sure that she gets any assistance that she needs. I was so frustrated. And that is the mentality that happened in my unit. And luckily, she ended up getting resources, thank God, because yeah, she needed it. That's not normal. And to make things worse, she was a volunteer in our crime scene unit. She wasn't even a full-time employee. So that was the mentality. Oh, you're fine, just brush it off. It's no big deal. And so, yeah, that was that was like a banging your head against the wall incident. But again, most agencies are getting peer support. And I will tell you that if you're not doing well, whether you're not sleeping, you're not eating, you're irritable, you're arguing, you can't work out, you're frustrated at your scenes, you're short-tempered, you're crying, you're drinking too much, you're abusing your prescription medications, that is a sign that something is not okay and you need help. It's okay to ask for help. If you don't want to use your city's resources, which I don't blame you, there are people on the outside that can help you. I they most agencies, cities have EAP, employee assistance program. If you don't feel comfortable using them, you go through your health insurance or pay cash and find a healthcare provider that can help you work through what you're dealing with because it's not normal what you're seeing every day. I did have coworkers who committed suicide. And I'd go to work and they seem totally fine and they'd have normal conversations. Of course, my interaction was limited because usually they were police officers who did this. But how do your coworkers who see you four days a week, who share a patrol vehicle with you sometimes, who respond to crime scenes with you, not see that you're in crisis? So it's, you know, hindsight's 50-50, right? We're all struggling, we're all having our own battles. And if I'm struggling with my own mental health issues, I may not be able to recognize their mental health issues. I might not have that capacity, you know. I might not have that capacity to see that. So if you're in the profession, everything you see is gonna be trauma. Your body has to learn how to process that. Your mind, your brain has to learn how to process that. Get professional help on a regular basis to help with the processing. Because I promise you that trash can is gonna come become full one day and it's gonna implode. I promise you you're headed in that direction, whether you've been on a there a year or 15 years. And when you can retire, you're gonna have a lot to unpack. And it's gonna be heavy and it's gonna be burdensome and it's gonna be painful. Get the help when you need it. Don't make your boss tell you that you have to go before you come back to work. You don't want to have to have that stigma in your workstation file on whether you're fit for duty. And trust me, it will never leave. They will always think of you that way. I don't care what you say, I don't care what you tell me, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care what policy you show me, I can tell you I am living proof. It will follow you everywhere. It will. And it will prevent you from getting promotions, it'll prevent you from moving divisions. 100%. So take care of yourself, get the help you need, figure out what that is, because it may not be the same as your coworker, and stick to it. Your your retirement self, your CSI self who wants to go back in and do the job because you love it and you have a passion for crime scene investigation and forensics will thank you. Your family will thank you, your relationships will thank you, because you're no longer in survival mode. You are thriving. You're in thrival, you know, you're thriving, you're in the thriving mode instead, because you're handling the trauma as it comes. So, with that being said, thank you for tuning in. I hope this was insightful, and I hope you understand that you will see suicides in your profession. You will see suicides probably in your personal life, and how you navigate that will really impact the longevity you have in that career and the relationships you have with yourself and outside of the field. Take care of your coworkers, check up on your coworkers, check up on your friends, check up on your family, get them the help that they need, help them help themselves. Because sometimes when you're in that position, you just don't have the capacity to do it. You need help. And we live in a prideful country, a prideful society, nation. We are prideful people, and asking for that kind of help is not something we typically do, especially as first responders, medical professionals, crime scene investigators, forensic personnel. That's just 911 operators, dispatchers. We just don't do that. We help. We don't ask for help. So that was my little reflection on suicides and how we handle suicides, the kind of suicides I typically saw, and my process for working those scenes, and then just recognizing people you work around, yourself, and when you need help because you can't do it on your own. It's okay. It's okay. And if you like this episode, I would love it if you would share my podcast with your friends and your family and coworkers. So, again, we can continue to grow this community and make sure you're following along Facebook, Instagram, send us a message, an email message. It just keeps bringing everybody here to learn more about crime scene, crime scene investigation, forensics straight from the crime scene. And again, make sure to hit follow so you don't miss an episode. Until then, stay curious, and I'll see you behind the tape. The yellow tape, that is.