Still Standing
With AKC judges, breeders, and TV personalities Wayne Cavanaugh & Kimberly Meredith.
Brought to you by The Canine Chronicle Real talk. Bold takes. No fluff. The blogcast that goes beyond the ring and gives you a look behind the scenes in the sport of purebred dogs — from two insiders who’ve lived it all… and are Still Standing.
Still Standing
Still Standing Episode 1: Type vs. Soundness
Hello everyone and welcome to Still Standing the dog show podcast brought to you by the Canine Chronicle celebrating 50 years of excellence. I'm Wayne Cavanaugh and with me today and every day is Kimberly Meredith, the one and only Hi, kim.
Speaker 2:Hi Wayne, how are you?
Speaker 1:Are you excited? I'm excited to be here with you. Season one version one episode. Whatever those kids say with those things they watch on TV, those series things, it's series one, episode one. That's it's serious. It's series one, episode one, that's it. Right here today we are uh starting this new podcast and I'm pretty excited about it fully excited about it.
Speaker 2:Totally, we can talk about whatever we want.
Speaker 1:We have freewheeling and we're going to talk about it we do and and, by the way, your makeup and your hair look fabulous. I can tell you, it only took three hours for this to be created and it's spectacular.
Speaker 2:And then we had to turn the lights out because I look like a ruby red grapefruit. So we won't talk about that.
Speaker 1:Being this the first episode, there's going to be things like this, like lighting, and we'll sort out along the way, but meanwhile, bear with us. Anyway, we have a lot to cover today and one of the things we want to focus on is kind of an old topic but a new slant on it, and that is type versus soundness, among other things we'll touch on as we go along that road. Anyway, I want to start this off by getting right to it and, kim, let's define I mean, that's an age old discussion, right Type versus soundness. What's more important? Well, there isn't, it's not a versus at all, it's a blend, right so? Or one, is they overlap, right? So how would you define breed type for people who are trying to learn how to evaluate dogs, or judges or breeders or anybody?
Speaker 2:I would say that breed type is made up of all the various nuances of those particular breeds, whether it's head shape, ear set, ear size, length of body, length of leg, tail, carriage all of that plays into it. So you know, the nuances in a breed and in the breed standard standard are really, really important, and so you have to be able to pull all of that in, study it, learn it and apply it. Not easy to do.
Speaker 1:No, it's not. And one of the ways I find helps me is to take those parts, those nuances, and apply it to the function of the breed, the original plan for the breed. So, for example, in short hairs and English pointers you know pointers as we call them, and German short hair pointers what makes them different? That's when you get into head type it's going to be different for the different game they hunt, the different geography where they were developed to hunt, and those things become important to that breed. You want the breed elements to keep them separate and unique from each other breed, right? You don't want the underlines and any of the retrievers to look alike, right, their whole profile. And those are the elements that I think of when I think of how to define a breed, those defining characteristics that come from the history, from the function and from the root breeds.
Speaker 1:And I talk about root breeds a lot. But I think it's important because, taking, for example, pointers, the original breeds in that breed included foxhounds, a lot of foxhounds, bloodhounds, even some people say terrier, maybe even a white terrier, you know, like a white bull terrier, the back that we saw in the 16 1700s. Breeds like that that you want to look at the dog and say I want a lack of those things. I don't want round bone like a foxhound. I don't want round long ears like a foxhound or like a bloodhound or a coonhound, not like a scent hound. The scent count, characteristics, the underline, the skirting, all those things will. The absence of those things is breed type. For a pointer, right, those root, the absolute root, breed elements.
Speaker 2:It really helps you define where you're getting to when it comes to breed type I agree, the northern breeds I come from the alaska malamute, originally from early 70s, and you know their function to be able to pull you through a snow drift, to get you back home, where you need to be, which is, you know, strength, sturdiness, length of leg to break through the snow, big snowshoe feet, double, you know coat, double harsh coat to be able to survive the elements if they're staked out at night, even running the Iditarod, they just stake them out.
Speaker 2:So without those essential things, then what do you have? You don't have breed type, for instance, in a Malamute, the single most worst fault in the Malamute, in our standards, the one word never is only used once. Never is under long and soft coat because it's a survival characteristic, correct. So being able to study and learn about these various things, as you're talking about the sight hounds, the scent hounds and what separates them, are the nuances of that breed that we have to absorb and pass along when we're looking at exhibits in our ring.
Speaker 1:And so, again, you know that function brings the elements of breed type and those defining characteristics that again are, shouldn't be in there. You know, you don't, you don't want to see some of those root we. We don't want to get, uh, we don't. Greyhounds are the root breed for pointers, for example. So what do we get from that?
Speaker 1:Too much tuck up, too narrow, a tail base too skinny, a tail base too long a tail all greyh skinny, a tail base too long a tail, all greyhound elements.
Speaker 1:You get your two fingers between their front legs and there's nothing there that's great in a sight hound, it's not good in an upland bird dog.
Speaker 1:And contrary to that, a bloodhound or foxhound or any of those scent hounds will give you the you know straighter underline too straight. So you're looking for the moderation between too straight and underline and not too much like a greyhound, no scent hound, no sight hound. So eliminating sight hound and scent hound characteristics from a pointer is going to get you there to what we think of as breed type. You don't want those elements and we selected for all these years to get away from that and the reason is those characteristics are linked to the way the breed hunts and with pointers. We want an upland game bird dog who can use his nose, use his tail for balance and do all those things that are unlike its root breeds, the things that make it unique. And I know, in sled dogs we see for you with your Northern breeds, we see dogs that have this fabulous movement and then you're thinking, unless they're kicking the dog's chin behind them, do they need all that kick For?
Speaker 2:certain breeds right. And that would be across the bridge, eliminating their function.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, I mean you don't want a lot of wasted motion in a sled dog that's going to be pulling you Like the Siberian Husky is a different story. They're bred to race, okay, and there's, you know, large teams. Malamute was a solitary dog, stayed with the children, stayed in the igloo and when the village was fished out they would take their sledge, big, heavy sledge. They'd pile the kids, all their belongings, belongings, and that single dog would drag them and pull them to the next fishing village. So they weren't around a lot of other dogs and you don't need fast, racy, flashy movement. You don't want it in that breed. They're the quidesdale of the breed, as opposed to the siberian husky. And you like comparisons and you're comparing, like the different bird dogs and upland bird dogs and you know all of that. It all plays into it. So importantly it does.
Speaker 1:The setters are a great example, right, I mean, I've had, I've had the good fortune of running irish setters in the dublin mountains. When you see that terrain, you see those bogs and you see the incredible expanse. The expanse is phenomenal. Those dogs run miles a day. You understand why they need that racy element not saying they should be a racy breed, but that that element that keeps them more, more speed and more um, I don't know something that applies to that function and keeps them different from gordon setters. You know, you certainly don't want a gordon setter to look like an iris setter and or an english setter or red and white, and knowing those differences, being able to compare those breeds to each other, is what gets you to breed tight for that breed and character, temperament. I'm sure for you are.
Speaker 2:Malamutes and Siberians similar in temperament or a little different. They're similar but different. The Siberians, of course, are not as dog aggressive because they're used to running in teams where Malamutes were solitary and you know they love to fight. They can be very dog aggressive so it takes a special owner. You know you don't want to stick a Malamute thrown into a pack with a bunch of other dogs because you're going to be in trouble and again that goes to breed character. The original job of the dog was a solitary job, so it all plays in.
Speaker 2:I think our job, you know as, is trying to develop an eye which we like to say you know, does that judge have a good eye? Does that breeder have a good eye? When that breeder is looking at a newborn litter, I can tell you you're talking about underlying, you're talking about curves, you're talking about raciness. We're evaluating all of that from the time those puppies are born. We start doing that and I think it's important that breeders recognize that, have that eye and it goes forward.
Speaker 2:If you should decide to go on to become a judge, very important that you have that eye. When those dogs walk into the ring they make their first go around. I think all of us go that one, not that one, that one, not that one, and then they have to prove themselves, of course, on the move and their character and all of that. But I think that we develop that eye as a breeder which is so important to me if you're going to go on to become a judge, to have that eye and to have that breeder's knowledge and background behind you, because you can then transfer that to other breeds that you study.
Speaker 1:You sure can and you know, looking at puppies, looking at lots of puppies, looking at lots of dogs really does sharpen that eye and get you dialed into what you want to see. I remember Elliot Weiss at his house this has got to be 40 years ago and they had more. They're're chesapeake bay retrievers in the backyard and I was really working on trying to get that profile right. We're having breakfast and I looked out the window and I said that that's the shape, right, it, just it. I knew it when I saw it and he said yes, that's the best picture we ever had. That's what you have to see dogs. It's so much depends upon seeing and there's a, there's a poem that that no one in the world will know and it simply said so much depends upon the red wheelbarrow glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens, and I always thought I should say depends upon seeing the red wheelbarrow glazed with rainwater besides white chickens. You can picture the feathers on there and unless you've seen that scene and know the farm scenes and know what chickens look like, and assume you know what a red wagon looks like, you can't put the whole thing together. So when you're judging and you have the opportunity to see three dogs, four dogs, over and over again. Good luck developing that eye.
Speaker 1:Without contrary, without doing that comparison and contrasting, it's really hard to develop that pinpoint it's. It almost has to be so ingrained in your brain. If you have to sit there and go, okay, let's see, shouldn't have that on, shouldn't have that top on, shouldn't have this, and you're going to judgment pieces, you're never going to get it. By seeing dogs over and over and over again you can walk in. Do you think a tennis player goes okay, I have to put my arm here, then here, then here while they're. I mean you'd never get it done right. You'd stop at each point and overstress it. Um, my granddaughter's four, our granddaughter's four, um, my wife's a really good swimmer and a good teacher of it. And when you see tatum go to the edge, to the diving board, you can at this age, at four, she'll be saying to herself hands here, focus here, arms here, and when you get once she gets that down, she won't just say that anymore. And if you judge enough good dogs in big classes, you're never going to develop that eye.
Speaker 2:That's part of it. I think that's why, too, national specialties are so. I mean, you can't you know if you can, if you're studying any breed, especially if you're trying to complete a group? You got to go to the nationals because that's where you see the quantities and the quality. I mean, everybody's coming there looking for stud dogs, looking for puppies, et cetera, and if you're just judging small shows with small entries all the time, you're never going to sharpen your eye, you never are no-transcript. That's what we all need to strive to do.
Speaker 1:It's on the job, training. There's no doubt this is out of the truck, and I've used this analogy too many times. But when you get your driver's license, you've passed all the tests, you've practiced and studied, you're approved to drive. Are you as good that day or that week or that year as you are if you've been driving for 10 years or 15 years, and also to go down that path a little bit more, if you learn to drive in a rural area without any traffic, you might be really good in driving environment. But if you were born and raised in New York City and learned to drive in New York City, that's a whole different set of skills.
Speaker 1:So if you're born in a region or grew up in a region where there's lots of dogs to see, good dogs to see, it's a real advantage. It's a real advantage. It's a real advantage. I mean, how lucky was I sheer luck to work for the four sides where we had the best dogs in every breed at the kennel every day. Uh, you can't help but develop an eye for those breeds and to learn their character, and that's an element of breed type that you can't write down, it's got it's osmosis.
Speaker 2:I mean you have to be around it, you've got to live with that breed, you've got to. I mean, when I was going through applying, you know, for groups I would get so interested in, like, oh, I didn't know this about that breed, I didn't understand that about that breed. Wow, that's amazing. And then you're like, oh, you know what, I could buy one of those. I really like that breed and that's what we hope to do in by studying. And then, you know, going back to your point about learning, you know there's a lot of criticism always has been on poor judging and it's never going to stop. It's an ongoing thing. You have to have a thick skin, no doubt about it. But I think all of us have the aspiration to walk into that ring and try our very best to judge it like a breeder judge. Now we may not pay attention to the same nuances, but hopefully within five minutes.
Speaker 2:Exhibitors are not stupid. They know if you know their breed I mean first or second class, if you've got some quality they know. You know what you know. And so I think that we do learn on well, so do surgeons. Surgeons learn on their patients. We learn on the exhibitors? Unfortunately, so do I judge Rottweilers the same now that I did when I first started? Absolutely not, you know. But that's the difference, wayne. A lot of judges never make that improvement or they never get beyond that. And so what is it that lets some people have that eye and learn it and keep it and keep adding to it, and others don't? After going to seminars for 25 years?
Speaker 1:others don't, after going to seminars for 25 years. So the same reason that if I got to go study with the Joffrey Ballet for 25 years, I'd never be a good ballerina. You either have it or you don't, and I know that's a controversy. Can you develop an eye for a dog? I don't think so. I didn't get better at it. But the ones that can just walk in and go, that one that takes so much, it just takes a different kind of brain and a different kind of eye for balance.
Speaker 1:When I see judges that to me aren't finding balance, I think that I wouldn't want them picking out drapes from my living room, you know, yeah. Or buying a dog, yeah, it's an eye for balance. But when you think about you, you know we talked a lot about character and breed type. On the other end of that is soundness, right. So one of the things I always think of to try to delineate meet that middle is well, first of all, I think we need both.
Speaker 1:I think we need breed breeder judges who get right down into the leather, the ear, the veins, the ear, the veins in the ear, leather, right down to the things that mean so much to define that breed. But I always think of these phases as judging things as phases. So if you have a good eye, even right Phase one, you walk in the ring, you go, that's a good dog. What kind of dog is it? What breed, I don't know, but that's a good dog. You have that eye for basic balance, symmetry and athleticism. You have that. You can judge like that forever. A lot of people do, and without ever learning finer points of the breed.
Speaker 1:Then you get into phase two and and this is my little theory Phase two is where you learn about the flared nostrils and the eye shape and where the nose goes and the different hair textures and colors and where they are in the body in some breeds, how the tape or the tail is different in some breeds than others, and you really get to study those finer and you've written them all down. You've talked to all the people. You read, read all the books and you know all the finer points and you forget about the whole dog, the general dog that you used to know about. You're so honed in on finding that vein in the ear that you forget they can't walk. So you've got to have that mix of judges that are really and I think this is true with anything in the world you need both ends to find moderation and that goes way beyond our sport.
Speaker 1:But if you have an eye, if you know what phase you're in, no one ever knows what phase they're in. That's the problem. So, third phase you know all that stuff about type. It's now second nature, You're not repeating it, it's in your mind and you can see the whole dog and you put those things together and you kind of have the right mix of type and soundness, and that's what we're going for. You can't have one without the other. In my mind anyway.
Speaker 2:Well, you know the saying that. You know you hear this all the time from people you know. Oh well, pound dogs can move well, okay. So what I mean? But movement and soundness is part of type. You can't separate them, you really can't. And you can't judge parts. I mean, look at national specialties top 20 results many times because you are on a scale, you're doing points, you're on a scale, you're doing points, you're doing parts you're doing. And then at the banquet, you know everybody's all excited and and the dog that was like 18th out of 20 there wins the top 20 and everybody goes. What? Seriously, you know, it's like you know and you're thrilled for the person that won. But it's certainly unexpected because they're not judging bulldogs.
Speaker 1:Right, it goes beyond that. There was a great thing. This has got to be. It was even before I was at AKC, which is in the early 90s. There was right before that. They hired an artist, a wildlife artist, who was beautiful at drawing different animals and they gave him the clumber standard and they said he's never seen one or heard of one. No pictures, they said draw this breed based on this standard didn't look anything like the breed, nor would it. You can learn all the fire. It didn't look anything like it what's long and low?
Speaker 1:I don't know this long, this low, this long, this low. Um, and how do you put those parts together and the way those parts balance and blend together? That's gonna end up defining type and soundness. So when people say to me that I see a pound dog could go this sound, maybe it's sound, but is it moving like a min pin? Is it moving like a pointer? Is it moving like a Newfoundland? Is it moving like a bulldog? Soundness is yeah, you got your legs going in the right direction. Is it moving like a bulldog? Soundness is yeah, you got your legs going in the right direction, but is it right for that breed? So that's the part of type you cannot separate from soundness.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And people that expect a lot of these breeds to have. You know, all of this reach and drive and extension and the front feet out above the nose and stuff is so wrong for other breeds. And then you get, you know, handling errors. You know they're, you know I won't say a country, but there's a country where they have beautiful, beautiful dogs and I love judging there, but they run everything. I mean they run. If it's a Chihuahua, it's on a dead run, if it's a Basset Hound it's on a dead run. And you say slow down, slow down, slow down, but to them faster is better and so it's wrong for each breed.
Speaker 1:It is. Right so part of the art of handling.
Speaker 2:is handling it correctly for its breed?
Speaker 1:And for the individual dog in that breed. Right Bastards know how to show. You don't show every dog the same in every breed. You've got to know where you got and where to accentuate and how to make it look right. But you know those are things that you have to work. There's so many good and I don't just mean professional hunters, I mean there's so many good exhibitor bred by people, exhibitors, handlers, that are so good at this now that you really got to know what you're doing on those quick seconds where you can see them standing on their own or whatever you might plan so over. But in england, let's say, I would say they only have 26 championship shows. There we have about 10 million on memorial day weekend. So for all year they have 26. We actually have over 1700, don't get me started. But because of that the breed entries are so big that you have breed judges, because it makes sense to. If you have 300 goldens you need two judges, crufts and a referee. But if you have a show where there's three and fours of this, you're going to need multiple group judges to do it. Just make it financially feasible.
Speaker 1:So when you have mostly breeder judges in a country, do they hyper-focus on type and leave out the soundness part. I don't know that's like saying you know that's just overgeneralization. But could it be that the dogs that we sometimes get from England gorgeous, type, maybe not great on their legs, or you go to America and we have a lot of multi-breed judges doing these groups Are they going more on movement or just basic soundness, showmanship, coat, whatever, trimming presentation? Again, gross, gross generalization. There's plenty overlap. But if you take it as just a story and think maybe this country goes too much on type, this country goes so much on generic movement, where's the middle? And that's to me is where type and sound has come together and we have great judges and in england that can obviously do just that. See the whole dog, see the parts that define the breed, watch it move. Appropriate and sound to me isn't just legs, it's sound.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no totally yeah, it's down mine, it's, uh, there's that athleticism.
Speaker 1:My little english toy spaniel that buggers an athlete, you see, I mean when he goes, he can, he, he flies around, he can run, he can jump, he can leap, and he's got. He's very balanced. By the way, I'm not pimping him, because I showed him three times. He finished one, a couple groups. We're done with him now. But but, um, and he's not perfect, but he's not perfect, but he has athleticism and balance and that's sound body and mind. Uh to, to pull that off. And we've seen a lot of dogs that are good down and back but can't move from the side for that breed. We see them that are good down and back that can't get their head and tail in the right spot for that breed. So it's, there's so much overlap and so much, so much. Just um, it's like overlapping concentric circles if you have to see it all at once, but when you do, it's something to celebrate and that's why we go to shows.
Speaker 1:We go. We go to shows. We know it's not going to be a ton of quality, hoping to find that gem. That's what keeps us going to find that diamond.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, everybody wants to find a great one. And then how many times, wayne, do we have, we're judging, and this beautiful, beautiful animal walks in and it's balanced and it's beautiful and it has breed type and it's got correct tail set and it's. It's balanced and it's beautiful and it has breed type and it's got correct tail set and it's, and it and it's a freak. You know the owners can't, it's scary death, it won't do anything, you know, and you're like, oh no, you gotta be kidding me. And then you see the dog and you just hope, okay, maybe it's the first time in the ring, second time in the ring, and you see it six months down the road in another show and it's behaving the same way.
Speaker 2:It's tempered worse or worse or worse, and what a shame, right, but we? I mean, there's no perfect dog. But you can build the perfect dog, but if it doesn't have the temperament, the outgoing, the self-assured, you know it's not going to do anything, it's not going to win and you certainly don't want to breed it if it's got a freaky temperament. So I keep going back to it as a breeder. You know, when I'm judging, I pretend.
Speaker 2:This is like I've been telling people this for years. I pretend like I used to say I have $500 in my pocket. I'm now like at 2,500 because dogs are expensive. And I have $2,500 in my pocket and I've got 50 dogs let's say just 50 beastless for instance and I have to buy one of them. I'm going to buy it, I'm going to take it home, I'm going to feed it, I'm going to breed it. Okay, what am I going to bring home? I don't care what class it's in. If it's a puppy dog, six to nine, owner handler, I don't care. But but I mean, I think that's the decisions that a lot of judges, hopefully, are making as breeders in advance, correct?
Speaker 1:So not the one you showed the best or look the prettiest, but the one you want to start a breeding program, for example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, exactly Exactly. And we all mean every judge wants to find that. I mean we're all looking, you know.
Speaker 1:Oh, you know you and you can. Brody's better at this than me in the general population of the world, but he finds the good in everything and I can do it. I hope when I'm looking at dogs I really do hyper-focus. Right down the line I've convinced myself that's ugly. I gotta find something good about that one, because if I'm not thinking about virtues instead of faults, I'm never going to. First of all, I'm not going to have fun in there looking for faults all day. Anybody can fault you. But if you can be confident in knowing those virtues and what to look for, it's more fun for you and it's better for the breeds. You're not going to end up putting up the great show dog. You're going to look for the one that has the most virtues. With that said, we get a minute and a half on a good day right To look at your dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, on a good, on a good day, providing that, you know, everybody gets in the ring on time and and all of that I mean. You know, I think that I don't think you can separate breed, type and soundness. I really don't. I think it's got to be present in the same animal to move correctly for that breed, like we discussed. You know, like a min pin. You know, look at all the controversy over the years, oh, that one has way too much lift, that one doesn't have enough lift. You know. So it's everybody's.
Speaker 2:You know, judging is subjective. What you may think is long, I may not think is long. You know, or some of the adjectives in the standards. I can see why that clumber spaniel didn't look anything like a clumber spaniel, because going in the adjectives and the verbs in a standard is very different than looking at an animal. And you know, a longtime mentor of mine and dear friend, rick Beauchamp, used to say all the time look at the whole dog and, okay, if its front sucks and everything else about that dog is so beautiful, everything in that dog is beautiful. It doesn't have a great front, okay, so what? It doesn't have a great front? There's no perfect dog, so you choose that dog for all of its virtues and, yes, it has a fault, because they all do. People sitting outside the ring may say oh my God, look at the front on that dog.
Speaker 1:I can't believe that dog won right, yeah, all the time, people that haven't been around long enough. And you know, I think that's another thing. If you're going to be able to learn how to see this intersection, this balance between type and soundness, which really is, it's really that's the holy grail, right, being able to see that combination and celebrate it. But if you're not able to learn how to see that, you're gonna end up going down the road of showmanship and generic and fancy and never really, you're never gonna get into that mindset of going. That's the one I wanna breed from, that's the one.
Speaker 1:And I do a thing and you've heard me say this, kim, in the ring. I do this thing in my head. When I'm judging a gun dog, for example, I'll say a bird dog, a sporting dog in America, when I'm judging any of those breeds, and it gets down to it, my last thing I ask myself every single time I have a single shot 410. I've got one shell. I'm really hungry, who's coming with me? And that puts me right back into the function and originality of that breed, the history of that breed, and gets me out of the ooh look at the shiny hair. It gets me right back to where I need to be back to the basics.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, you're so spot on, so, spot on yeah. Who wants to pull the sled? Come back. Absolutely, yeah, you're. You're so spot on, so, spot on yeah who wants to pull the sled?
Speaker 1:come back, who wants to pull? So you know, who are you going to bring with me? I gotta pull stuff you know I have to bring. I've got to bring the last vaccine to gnome alaska. Who's coming with me? You know, um, and that can be true for every breed. And, and being a new second time toy dog owner, which is so foreign, uh, to where my last dog was a wolfhound, now I've got an English dog Spaniel.
Speaker 1:That's an interesting thing because that was bred to be a companion dog, to look pretty right, but to do that you've got to have four legs to get to the ball and you've got to be able to well, hopefully, and you've got to be able to just do the things that work for art and for companionship. Are there elements of type that are related specifically to function? Yes, but it's related to the whole gestalt of the breed. I mean, it's the essence of the breed. Then you can learn that too, without having to say who's going hunting. You don't necessarily say who I want in my pillow, but it's not a bad thing to run through your mind.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah yeah yeah, what's cute, is it?
Speaker 2:you know, speaking of that, like you know heads and expression and eyes, and you know these soft melting, I mean there's so many breeds that, like a pyrenees, appear with a proper head, with a beautiful dark eye. The soft expression, I mean, it just melts you right. And so I have a tendency to, if you've got to look at it on the couch every day or lay next to it in the bed, you don't want an ugly head, you know. And then they, oh well, they don't function with their head. Well, yeah, most of them do, because they're carrying birds or they're doing whatever. But also, I want pretty, I want beautiful. You know, I think we all do. We wouldn't have purebred dogs if we didn't appreciate beauty in a breed.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think the key to beauty is balance, and that's true in everything. If you're picking out clothes, anything, balance is going to be. You might not be thinking that way, but that's really what determines. I mean, there's these great studies, wonderful studies national geographic did one on faces of all different parts of the world, people from all over the place and judging beauty. And the thing that they find most compelling to their studies and it's not just one study going on for years is symmetry. If this half of the face is in balance with this half of the face and the people that are clicking on like this, this is prettier, this is more beautiful. They don't know that, but they're falling for that balance. That's what appeals to them. Is that balance between sides of the face? I never even thought of that, but it's that background brain of balance that keeps us looking for beauty, and it could be knowing what's not balanced.
Speaker 1:In photography, for example, you know if you always have the subject centered right in the middle, it can get boring. There's three parts of every photograph. You can put the subject here, there, in different places, places, but you need to know the balance of where that goes. And with dogs, you need to know how big that head should be in uh, in comparison to that body. So when you uh look at these, these pieces like the clumber spaniel drawing, what you can see is how they flow in each other and how that affects breed type, and it's it's not that difficult to learn the individual parts or draw that list.
Speaker 2:It's much harder to put them all together, oh for sure you know, interesting in talking about this just made me, made me think of something that, talking about symmetry of face, symmetry of markings, isn't it interesting that all of us, most of us, are so drawn to the beauty of a split face in a breed, in a smooth box, in a, with it in a you know, and when they're beautiful and you're just like, wow, I love split faces, right, and that all I think goes all back to the balance and the beauty of it and the symmetry, because having a split face is is, you know, visually, judges have to be aware of it, but also have to appreciate it. It has to be balanced and beautiful. So same type of thing.
Speaker 1:And eliminating that one thing, like you're talking about with Rick, there was a Whippet seminar I was at in Houston. It was a real good one and there was a bitch in there that was just outstanding easily the best one in there but she had a U-neck. That's a bad thing for Whippet right, really bad thing. So are you going to give her winners at the national and overlook that? Maybe not, but when you're looking at these dogs as a group of all different sizes and genders in a seminar situation, if you don't pick out all the good parts in that bitch and try to blink, you know, blur your eye at that ewe neck, you're going to miss all the qualities of balance. She was a split face, all the. Blur your eye at that u-neck, you're going to miss all the qualities of balance. She was a split face, all all the elements of balance, of top line and where things go. Uh, she just was. So she had all that. Look those ears, the eyes, she was just beautiful there. So you've got to.
Speaker 1:And sometimes people and that's when the sideline people, um, the ringside exhibitors or spectators or knowledgeable people even they'll see that and go wow you, you put up a lengthy eunuch If they don't know the breed. If they don't, you have to have the courage. If you have to have the courage to go in there and go. I know you're all going to say this dog has a bad rear, because he does, but you know what? This is tight. This is a dog that I've been looking for all day and I finally got one. And I'm not gonna care about you saying, man, I'm being rare. I, by the way, I like good rears. It's a big deal for me. But any virtue like that that anybody can see.
Speaker 1:Anybody can see that we used to have horse people come to this particular show near a training grounds. Horse got oh, horse trainers, great guys, they didn't, they just thought it was fun to come watch and they'd pick out dogs of any breed, just like that. They wouldn't even agree and I'd say what is it that you like? That's something about their balance, something where their parts fit together. Now I wouldn't want them judging the national because they're not going to know the fire, but they have a third element, right, soundness, type and just shape and balance. What's one of the first things you walk into a ring? What's one of the first things you look at overall? What's one of the first things you look at when you're judging.
Speaker 2:Shape and outline. Shape and outline. Shape and outline.
Speaker 1:That often defines the breed and it often defines balance and it also really gets you out of. If you don't have that silhouette, and I mean totally blacked out, you know when you cut out the. I've got the cute little pictures of our daughters that someone did just their profile l1, solid color, and uh, it's so cool because you don't worry about all the bits, right, you just look and go. That's so symmetrical and when you see that balance, I've seen many good dog whose profile in my mind is destroyed by a loin this much longer than its rib cage and that to me you can pick up in that profile way too often way too often in too many rooms yeah, you know it's, it's really hard.
Speaker 2:One of my breeds is the Doberman, you know, and I love them and I've had them for many years and probably will always have one. But you know, our breed is getting longer and longer and longer and it's very hard to find one that's square and we are a square breed, you know. It's one of the five square breeds in the working group. So then we just kind of started accepting it. Well, it's a little long, but you know it's a little long, but it runs fast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it runs fast. Yeah, exactly Same type of thing. So it's like we start. You know I often and I'm sure you do too, Wayne, but you know I often will look at if there's a fault, whether it's a front, whether it's a rear, whether it's.
Speaker 2:You know, I say to myself okay, as a breeder, what can I fix in one generation? What can I breed this animal to and fix this in one generation? Well, we know and I'm a front nut, you're a front nut that you can't fix a front in one generation. There's so many moving parts to it and you can lose it in one generation. And I will say one thing people in Europe you know we talk about the European dogs they're not groomed as well and a lot of them, you know, maybe don't move as well as we would like, but let me tell you, they know fronts and they keep fronts and they have fronts over there. We don't Our sporting dogs. You can't find a front to save your life most of the time in most of our breeds. And it's so important, you know, and it's like why in Europe are they getting it and understanding it and keeping it and we're not?
Speaker 1:Because we love the straight front, sloping top line, over-angulated behind. It couldn't be any more wrong. It wins every day of the week and it drives me nuts. If you've seen in irish centers in england and ireland, you've got perfect shoulder lay back, you've got the length of upper arm, which is the big key here. Right that if we get all this lay back with a short upper arm and that's not going anywhere either there's no place to extend that front leg and we tolerate it here, for for the simple reason to make this sloping, when I see all these pictures in magazines where they put the dog on a rock, the front feet on a rock, yeah, yeah yeah there's a sloping top line.
Speaker 1:I'm way up on the rock. Now how does that look even better? You know not for me fancy yeah, yeah, let's really do that. They're going to start breeding them like that on a rock, but um, well, you know so.
Speaker 2:So, going back to, like you know, fixing something in one generation, I mean that's something that I think that, as judges and certainly as breeders, that you know, if, if you, if you're, if you have no friends which I mean it's a problem here You've got to start selecting. You may not like this puppy's head as well, you may not like its tail set as well, but you've got to start selecting for friends. And the other thing about breeders is that I don't why especially newer breeders they think if you take I was going to say a straight fronted dog and then a dog with a lot of front angulation, it's going to be a blend. It can be a blend.
Speaker 2:No, you're going to get half your litter with straight friends. You're going to get half your litter with great friends. So you keep your great friends and you breed them to something with a great friend. They don't understand that it's not a blend. Okay, that's not how breeding is. So if you're going to, you know, zoom in on something that we need to correct over and over and over, you've got to find it, select it and then be true to it.
Speaker 1:There's an anatomical issue that I just love to think about and explain. When I'm talking about fronts see this thing right here, collarbone we all have them and they connect our bodies to our fronts. So if we're down in a quadrupedal position, our arms or our front legs right, they're connected right to. It's amazing they're connected all together right. Dogs don't have these. They don't have clavicles. They're actually, they're the only mammal that there's a couple mammals that don't have them to some sloth or something, but mammals in general, uh, dogs, definitely no clavicles, right. So when they're, when you're talking about constructing your front, you've got the shoulder blade, you got the upper arm, you got the legs, you got the feet, you got all that ligament and they're just hanging there over the rib cage. They're just hanging there with ligament scapula scapula is held on by muscle, it's.
Speaker 2:People think it's connected by bone, it's not there's no's our scapulas held together by these.
Speaker 1:They don't have that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:How important is it to get all the length of those elements together and centered properly on the dog for that front to survive, and for some reason we just don't care about that much anymore? I sure do. I want to see withers, elbows, feet and a straight line. Withers, elbows, feet in a straight line. In fact when I go down a line after I'm looking at general outline, I'm looking for feet under the withers in most breeds not all of them, obviously, but the ones that fall for it, because without that you the center of gravity is off. When you do that, if they see these breeds of their front legs in front under their noses, that's a good clue that it's not under their withers. You just drop a plumb line at the withers, boop foot, elbow, you're on line. Probably a good start on that front. Could be other issues, but at least a good start. But I don't know. It just seems to be one of those trends that's been going on forever and nobody cares. You get a good front on any breed. You hang on to that forever.
Speaker 2:Oh, I, you know, I'll forgive a lot for a good friend. I'll forgive a lot, I really will, because it's so important and we lack it so much in the united states, unfortunately I try my best to reward, certainly insiders whenever I can, the um.
Speaker 1:but your point is so good and strong about how quickly can you change that in your breed? So without knowing, without having bred any litters, without knowing how important breeding works and how that there are issues or elements of a breed that are easier to change than others, you'll never come at it with that point of view. You'll miss that.
Speaker 2:I'm not saying you have to breed every breed, but you have to know that certain things are harder to get and fronts is definitely one of them, definitely and you know, when I was thinking about this, when we were talking about you know what we're going to discuss today I was thinking that how many people all of us start with our first dog and we may never show that dog. It may be a pet on our couch for its whole life, or we end up at dog shows by some weird way. We end up at dog shows. You see the breeder saying, okay, if you want that puppy, your butt's going to be at a dog show and I'm going to call you and drive you crazy until you get there, right, so we are so in love with that first dog.
Speaker 2:I could never really understand why people their first dog is not quality and they come to the dog shows and they lose, and they lose, and they lose and they continue to show the dog. And I started thinking about that. I thought, well, there's certain breeds that well, number one, you know you don't want to just throw away your first dog. I mean you can keep your first dog as a pet and say, okay, now I know I've been at the dog shows, I've been watching. I think I know what I need to learn. Hopefully you get some anatomy behind you. You talk to some breeders and explain the different fronts, whether it's a terrier front, a sporting dog front, whatever you're talking about. But then you've got to have the guts or the knowledge and maybe money plays into it to go out and find a better dog or buy a better dog and kind of start over. And a lot of people don't do that and we're also limited by.
Speaker 2:I'm originally from California for most of my life. You can only have two dogs. You can't have three, four, five, six, ten. The days of the old kennels are gone, long gone. You're lucky if you can have even two dogs anymore in the United States. So you know you don't have the opportunity necessarily to go out and buy or get a better dog, which I think you know I did that. I mean I bought my first Malamute. He, I finished him but he wasn't great. And I I went to the first national specialty and I was like, wow, there's all these dogs and I started looking at all of them and I kind of figured out what I wanted, what direction I wanted to go, and boom, I bought another dog. Not everybody does that, you know. I don't know what. What is it in our characters that just make us decide I'm just going to keep showing this dog because I love it or I need to buy a better dog.
Speaker 1:Well, I think there's two elements and I just had this situation recently, so it's kind of fresh in my mind. One they might just like going to dog shows win or lose. They like the camaraderie, they like the dogs, they like the vibe. They've met some friends and when I travel with them, maybe they also do obedience or agility and they don't really care. I'm going to show them anyway. Maybe they don't care, or there's someone who doesn't know and really needs to know. Here's the problem. At a recent show, well not too long ago, richard Powell and I both did a breed on Saturday and Sunday.
Speaker 1:And we both had a real close call to make with this woman, who was very well intended. She was well put together, her dogs were immaculate, beautifully trained and present, and she'd been going to handling class every night, I guess because this dog was ready. But it really didn't look much like the breed and you didn't want to give it a championship point. But then again, was it a Cocker Spaniel? Oh, the one I just pulled the breed. But yeah, yeah it was. And so what we did is we both spoke to her, not knowing the other one did. And then richard said she's so interested, how about we get her together? And we both talked to her and it was unfortunate. I hope she'll figure it out what to do.
Speaker 1:I said well, there's a breeder in this region. It's got really nice dogs and she's really nice. And I think maybe this is because she said should I breed this one? We both said no, just, you're going to start backwards if you do that. You want to go find a good brood bitch? And we said here's a woman in this area that's got a lot, maybe she can steer you to one or find somebody for you. And she said oh, and this is a very kind woman and I said uh, what's the why not? Because, well, this is her breeding and I went for help and she wasn't happy because I didn't buy it from her. I thought, man, that's a missed opportunity, right? I?
Speaker 1:missed so we gave her other names to go talk to and I hear she did and I hope she gets to go and start with, but she said it's. I'm embarrassing myself by showing these dogs, even if I'm getting points. I shouldn't show it anymore, right, and we're both like I wouldn't, unless you'd love to come to the shows and just do it for that. But you have to understand the money you're wasting doing this. If you met somebody, we've got to be way better at this as a sport, at mentoring and getting people good dogs.
Speaker 1:Um, you know there's, I know some, there's some people in certain breeds that I've known for years and maybe they're not the most with it people or don't dress the best or whatever. No one ever gives them a good dog one by one. They get the worst one in the litter and they make them, show them so they can beat them and get a point. That drives me nuts Everybody who cares that and they have to show the dedication of going to shows and learning and wanting to learn. But you don't have to give them their best one, but something they can start with and that's so important.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't know why this has been a problem for decades, why this happens, why people decide, oh, I'm not selling them a dog, you know, sometimes they don't even know the person. It's because Susie said you know, I don't know why. And then we have other breeders that you know. I won't say names, you'll know who I'm talking about. That breed, several rare breeds that are like okay, we have four litters right now, we'll co-own, we'll help you, come over, come, look at us. I don't know how many people do.
Speaker 2:I know if I were going to buy one of those rare breeds, I certainly would be at their front door. But we have this attitude, this haughty attitude, you know, and shame on us. I mean we're overrun by doodles and backyard breeders and part of it is our problem because we shun a lot of people and shame on us. Shame on us, I mean. I mean we're harming ourselves really. I mean you got to give people a chance, you know, because Susie said so-and-so, don't sell it a dog or whatever. Now, if it's a problem to how they take care of their dogs or how their dogs live, absolutely not. But I, I do appreciate top breeders that will give newbies a chance.
Speaker 1:And those people you're talking about. So group winners, puppies to groupers all the time and do real well with them, and that helps their breed and helps the sport. This is a topic that I think we could really get into and we have to about wrap it up for our first episode here, but let's think, keep this in mind for next, next time, and talk about how we can help as a sport, how we can get good dog to people, and what we should do collectively and individually to try to keep people in the sport once we get them there. Kim, it's been wonderful. It's been wonderful. Thank you, same here. Yeah, well, you know we got the first one in the books and I can guarantee you, like judging get a little better each time.
Speaker 1:So there we go, go thousands of more episodes with you. This will be fun. Thanks again to the canine chronicle celebrating 50 years of excellence. That's a long time for their support and we really enjoy doing this and look forward to seeing you again next week. For me and this wonderful person to my left, kimberly meredith, good night, good night, see you soon.