Still Standing

Still Standing Episode 8: Too Many Dog Shows, Too Much Carbon Paper, And Not Enough Qualified Judges!

• The Canine Chronicle • Season 1 • Episode 8

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0:00 | 1:06:29
Wayne & Kim discuss the shortage of judges, too many dog shows and the need for a better system.


Cataracts, Aging, And Staying Sharp

SPEAKER_00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Still Standing with Wayne Kavanaugh and Kim Meredith. I'm Wayne. And I'm Kim Meredith. Yes, you are. The world's a better place for it, Kim. Thanks to the Canine Chronicle, celebrating over 50 years of canine excellence. And their magazine's just unbelievable. The articles, everything about it, it's just top shelf. So we again thank the Canine Chronicle and Tom and Amy for giving us this opportunity. We want to talk about well, Kim's wearing cool glasses right now. I think they're fashionable. She thinks they're functional. So tell us what they're for, Kim. Um, well, okay, so I have two looks.

SPEAKER_02

I'll model both. This is the daytime doctor-ordered UV filter glasses for if you're watching television or your computer. So these are the gangsta. This is the gangsta. This is for nighttime. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_00

Very nice.

SPEAKER_02

They're plastic and they're from the doctor.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm not sure we can take you serious with those on. I think the other ones are okay. UV?

SPEAKER_02

I think these look these are a little more, what do you think, appropriate?

SPEAKER_00

I think they're cool. Yeah. Librarian stuff. So, and you're wearing these because?

SPEAKER_02

Um, because I'm old and because I have cataracts.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

And we were just discussing, Wayne and I, um, all the maladies that us older judges are going through from various parts of our bodies. Yeah. Um, from kit to toe. And yeah, and surgeries and you but you name it. So yesterday I had my first cataract surgery on my left eye, and I'm now restricted to these UV glasses for a couple days and no eye makeup for a week. So uh I will scare everybody with that. And um, it's very important because these are a more uh it's an improved lens that's called an LAL, if in case anybody's interested, it's a light adjustable lens where they go in and they tweak, they can tweak three times. They can put the lens in, then they do extensive testing, and they can go in and they hit it with a UV razor to tweak what you're seeing in your in your eyesight, which is pretty cool, which is they in the meantime, they don't want you having a lot of UV rays in your eyes and you know messing with the lens.

SPEAKER_00

So don't stare, don't scare an eclipse or something. Um I've had this uh cataract surgery and it's been a life changer. You the amazing thing is colors look so much better. Um but I did say to the guy, I said, Hey guy, if any dog show people come in here, don't tell them they're all going blind. And he said, Well, baseball umpires come in here all the time and tell me the same thing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

We can see your dogs. That's why we have glasses and we have uh, but it is a thing. And and we were talking about it a bit last week. Um, Kim was saying how you had a tremendous amount of cancellations from judges. This is an issue, and you had three or four, right? Well, ended up with four. Judges need to be replaced. Five. And um, and this weekend, we've I don't know if I've been to a show in the last couple months where someone hasn't been a replacement. We are an aging population of judges. And there's no real fix for it because it takes so long to get the three or four groups required to get you hired. And they rush people through. There's another way around it, of course, and that's foreign judges who haven't judged more than three of a certain breed in their entire life coming down and doing specialties because they're they're available and they have those groups. Not to say they're not bad. I'm just saying there's a shortage. We all know it, the AKC knows it. So they're trying at doubling the number of foreign visitors, not foreign visitors, they call them visiting judges now. Um, visiting judges can come to other countries without telling our tests or our standards and education. They can just come here. Now it used to be eight, now 16 times a year, because again, we have that problem. And then again, it's taking so long for people to get through the process or too quickly to get through the process. And it's all because we need too many damn judges because we have too many damn shows. I know you're sick of me beating this horse, but um it's just I think when people say too many shows, um they just mean they they think of the simplest

Judge Cancellations And A Shrinking Bench

SPEAKER_00

thing like, yeah, they're too many. It's it's not only canary in the coal mine, it affects so many things. Um it's just a matter of it's it's judging, the big problem with judging today is too many shows. And that's because we don't have enough qualified people with a depth of experience to do all these shows. And when you got to spread them around all these shows that have 300 dogs at them, it's just not doable. Um there's only a hundred and there are only a hundred and twenty I wrote down and twenty-three shows last year there that were over a thousand.

SPEAKER_02

Over a thousand? You're kidding me. Wow. Okay, I don't know. I had two thousand stuff. I mean, how many for two thousand? I mean, we were at 1998 with Wolfstock, so we're just under the yeah, you're just on the top 10.

SPEAKER_00

I'm sorry, the top 50. No, top 25. AKC list of top 25. By the way, these listed, there are 1,724 dog shows. I've got to go through everyone, figure out what state they're in, what division they're in, and the number of and number of dogs enter. 1724. I'm trying to get help with that, but but I know that the under, the over uh the top 50, no, I'm sorry, the top 25 shows, top 25 shows are Orlando Cluster, Kentucky Cluster, um there's one on the case. Used to be well for many years it was kind of California and Palm Springs. It's Palm Springs, Kentucky.

SPEAKER_01

I thought it was ever three.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. The 25 top shows are taken by them, Westminster, and one or two others. So we're we're probably at an average now in the 500s per show. I've not done that for this year yet. And one of the reasons I haven't is the AKC is really really good about getting these stats out. I'm still waiting for 2025 stats. The only thing they're publishing is 2024. And there's the if you go on to Amazon has all of the annual reports available to the public. You can even get them on the AKC's website. But when you go to the AKC's website, the last one is 2020. If you go for annual reports and search through their website, you'll eventually find them. 2024 is the latest one. And um that's an issue for for people trying to get data for for for the 2025 season, 2026 season. Um, so it's it's still even if you can find it on the website.

SPEAKER_02

I know. The website's so user unfriendly, you can't find anything. What I go and I Google what I want, and then it takes me to the right website, the ATC, you know, um website. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00

Well, the weird thing is they have this chart that has the doctor name, the date, uh, where it is, and all that. But it's it's um it's not you can't download it into an Excel file. So you can't sort on any number because it's all in one, it's all in one cell. So you can't break the cells up to sort them. That's why I have to do them by hand. So it's really frustrating. But um, there are fewer shows over a thousand than I thought. Um, it looks like it's gonna be a little more than that at the end of the day, or more wrapped up, but it's not gonna be over 2,000 of the 17, I mean 250 of the 1,743 shows. So it's it's getting small. Now remember, this data is two years old, and we know the trends are continuing down, so it's gonna even be worse.

SPEAKER_02

Way downward.

SPEAKER_00

When I get to if I ever get the 26 data, it's gonna be really scary as we get into 2027. But um, this is the way it is. So here's the problem with all these things. We have a judging problem for two reasons. We'll have a lot of reasons. The biggest one is because we have too many shows. The other one is we have an ageing population, and these cancellations are a big deal. They're a big deal. And uh when you have to, when you on Memorial Day weekend, Jim Fanker has Jim Fanker's, I think I think Jim had well that club, the Kalamazoo cluster, which by the way is one of the biggest clusters in the country now. Um, and there are over a thousand. Uh they had three or four cancellations last minute. Some of them weren't that last minute there, like two weeks before, but you had uh some of them are the day before, including me. And it was just a clumber specialty for me, but I I was in the hospital that time. So this this this is gonna keep happening. When every judge is booked for Memorial Day weekend, try to find one. So the reps are gonna have to be a little more flexible. They were for you, Kim. I know.

SPEAKER_02

They were yeah, they were amazing. Everybody was amazing, everybody just kept their cool. You know, I was just, you know, like we talked about, you know, friends that were doing specialty stayed over. It was it was a Herculean group effort. But yeah, no, you're right. And you've got to have cooperative reps that will roll roll with the punches, you know, to be able to even pull it off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

For example, um, this past weekend, uh, one of the best searches we have, in my opinion, Ken Murray, um, is short. He he'll he's just a few breeds away from being an all-arounder in the in the non-sporting group. But he's judged the non-sporting group several times because as a substitute, because he almost has the whole group, you know, Judge got sick. This this weekend, they wouldn't let him do it because he didn't have the whole group. Yeah, I guess somebody else. Uh so it there needs to be a more universal, and I'm sure the reps get different directions or whatever, but there's got to be a more universal decision.

SPEAKER_02

If it's under an emergency, like for instance, the office in AKC closes on Friday, you know, say, say 12 noon, whatever. Uh you can pretty much, if it's an emergency, anybody can judge.

SPEAKER_00

Anyway, literally.

SPEAKER_02

You find a death fault, right person.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there was a new judge at the show who did have it, provisionals and whatever,

How Many AKC Shows Is Too Many

SPEAKER_00

but um, I don't know. It it's they're gonna have to get a little more flexible across the board, only because of these cancellations. This is gonna be a big deal. Um, and there are the funny part is there are handlers, exhibitors who chase judges. One happened this weekend, a judge didn't show up, and off you go into the other show you entered in. Um yeah, it's that makes it almost funny. But the it's a situation that we need to deal with. Um, and there's only two ways we can do it. And one is try to find a way to get our judging population um to the to the size. Here's a question, Kim. Do you think there's enough if we have if we keep going and have 2,000 shows next year, are there enough people that have the depth of experience and the eye to fill 2,000 slots, even if they were given carte? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Um I'd say no. Maybe in my opinion. I mean, you know, I think that, you know, I've been an exhibitor since 1972. I mean, there's a million of us that have been around that long, not a million, but lots of us that have been around that long. And we watch the really long time experienced judges that you want to bring a dog to, you want to bring your local to, you want to hear what they have to say or what they think. And inevitably, you know, uh people ask me, they'll say, Okay, well, I you know, I'm glad I brought it. Like, what do you think? And we'll just another, yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I would fix this a little bit, I would do that a little bit, but there's no perfect dogs. And you know, there how many judges this these days would you even waste your time talking to about it because they don't know, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Well, we've got two a days. I remember my dad when it when he first heard about two a days, he's like, You can't even be the best dog for a whole 24 hours. Right. Right. He's he's not typically like mind-boggling for him, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, and the thing is too, some clubs are very good at doing the two in the day, and others are fail miserably. And you you start judging at eight o'clock in the morning and you're not back to your hotel until line o'clock at night. I personally have suffered through so many of them that don't know what they're doing that I won't do them anymore. If they say we do two on this day, I say no. I I I'm sorry, I I'm happy for your club if that's what you want to do, but I I don't want to judge.

SPEAKER_00

You know, exhausting as well. I mean, you still have a limit of 175, but it's mentally exhausting to change in these damn books. And by the way, come on, it's 2026. Do we really have to be writing on that damn? I don't even know where they get that carbon paper anymore. They must buy from a factory that went uh that went bust in 1947. I mean, really? You got to press hard to record your notes.

SPEAKER_02

You can't read it, you can't read through it at all.

SPEAKER_00

And it gets wet and it blows away.

SPEAKER_02

Well, if you don't have a clipboard, if you don't have a clipboard, there are these really flimsy, like little thin cardboard things. And so you're trying to turn your pages over, you can't even write on anything. Yeah, so you know, I think I think I'm gonna start giving judges gifts is clipboards, so little clipboards so people can have something to write on, which is actually a pretty good judge's gift.

SPEAKER_00

It's usually a rock or a cell phone holding it down. I mean, some of the stewards are really clear, they bring this big heavy granite thing and put it there for you, you know. Uh they know, but it's just silly.

SPEAKER_02

The stewards that make like little painted rocks. Like I had one that was used some sort of a metal disc from probably a machine shop.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And they were painted red. And I thought, okay, well, this is a weird trophy, and I'm handing them out to the exhibitors. And she she's as they walk by, she snatches them back, and then probably tells me those aren't those aren't to go to the exhibitors, and they lose all their little painted rocks because some dumb judge gives it out to one of the exhibitors, right?

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, I've bought some fairly expensive houses on my phone in an airport. If you can make a transaction that large on your cell phone in an airport, I don't know. I'm thinking you might be able to trust judges to use an iPad. And by the way, Australia's got a guy. He's been in touch with me. Um, I hope he's listening to this and gets in touch again. He has it all done. He has a software, download it on a tablet. And when you sit there, and and by the way, we write this down, right, with our pen, pressing as hard as we possibly can to get through all these duplicates, triplicates. Is it trip more? Maybe it's four sheets. I don't know. I think it's four. It's four. And by and all superintendents have different shapes. So you think you got it going on, then you realize, oh, I just put a one there, and the dog's number's over here on this superintendent, but it should be over here. Oh, yeah, over here and there. And you got to sit there and stare at the damn paper all day, where if it was set up universally in one format and just had to go boop, boop, boop, boop, one, two, three, four. Um, the superintendent that so I write it. Somebody makes a book, first of all. Then I write it, and then I give it to Vicky at Mospo, or someone really good at this, there's plenty of them. And she reads

Why Judging Paperwork Still Breaks Down

SPEAKER_00

this thing. And then she comes over at the end of the day and said, Did you really mean this? And I'm, oh no, I guess I didn't mean I have to initial that. Uh and then that goes to, then she keys it in to go to the AKC. How many times for, and then someone at AKC keys in. How many how many uh opportunities for errors are there along the way? A zillion?

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, exactly. And you know, this is an interesting thing. I was watching um Tyler Crady, um, who does wing photographs, right? And he's amazing. His equipment is amazing, and so he has an electronic sign. Uh, instead of having to pull out little things and drop in the slots and drop them the slots and oh, where's my best? Where's my best of opposite? And then is it a major? And then they're stacking these all up and up. He just goes, like, you know, it's like he's the only one I know that's done that. Yeah, and it's it saves so much time. Yeah. And I'm like, why can't we be able to come up with something similar, just as you're saying, for judging?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. And we had in in on our beautiful island of Venice, there's a San Marco restaurant with a little bar and a jazz guitar player. He's 80 years old, he's brilliant, and he plays this crazy melody of intricate notes, and he has an iPad, and that's all he does. He looks over, he touches it, boom, and he's playing. He even has, you know, and you'll see this now. You'll see musicians at um at small venues with just the guitar sounding like they have a whole band because they do on the pedals. Sure. And we're sitting there going, I'm gonna write number one. By the way, have you ever written number 14 next to number 14? I've done that once or twice. I meant to put one extra.

SPEAKER_02

You did I made every mistake.

SPEAKER_00

The program would drag they'd make no, you can't do that. Fix you right there. That's the best part. It would not let you give select to an open book.

SPEAKER_02

There's somebody from Australia that's already got this figured out, seriously. Yeah, this is great. Is he planning on marketing?

SPEAKER_00

And I think they've done it in Mexico at the World Show too, but it wasn't quite polished back then because they were trying to do it with microchips. So when your dog walked in the ring, and I think this is really good, but I'm not sure we can handle this one. We can't even give the superintendent's iPads. But um, that you it was a uh the gate had an arch around it. When you walk through, your dog was microchipped, and it went, it made sure that that was the poodle. You couldn't show to you couldn't finish the same poodle 14 times with different dog names, you know. That's very smart. Okay. They knew that. And then also you can't make a mistake because I we all make mistakes with things like owner handler, um, and especially when they have a word of merits and owner handler and and um bread buy and puppies, and it gets the books are different uh for a lot of those, and you're not even sure. Can I put the veteran in there? Is he qualified? It was a specialcy, it was an independence, the veteran class was after. The your iPad program wouldn't let you do that. It wouldn't let you write in, like I just said, an open bitch for select, even though that's another rule change, by the way. Uh, what if you have four specials, three shouldn't be champions, and you've given best of breed.

SPEAKER_02

Three finish, you don't know how, okay, got it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know how, but um people are afraid to withhold uh they don't know enough. But anyway, three of them shouldn't even be champions. One is your best to breed winner. Your select could be your winner's dog, who's profoundly, infinitely better than the other three. You can't do that, even though he's the best dog in there, he's not the second best. He's now still behind the three non-champions. Because I might think about changing that role, but that's one thing.

SPEAKER_02

But but let me let me just challenge you with that a little bit. If he was that, if he was so what you're saying is he's not as good as the best of breed dog, but he's better than the other three that are left. But but clearly, if you thought he was the best thing, we would just pull him to the breed anyway, to begin with.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, he was the best one, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, got it.

SPEAKER_00

So here's what happens. This is why you can't do that. Because the people want their grand champion. It doesn't matter if the dog is horrible. If he goes to enough shows, he can go second every time. If you got the if there's only two East Beaverdon rocket hounds or whatever the hell a new breed we're bringing in, and there's only two of them, one's horrible, and one's the champion, the other one's gonna be a grand champion someday. Because he just goes to enough.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And they're gonna enter their dogs in the same money and enter their dogs, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Anyway, it's out of control. It's an amoeba that just says crept all over the planet. So, what do you do about this? Tom Gravy had an excellent um editorial this

Open Shows And Mileage Rules

SPEAKER_00

week, something we've talked about for a long time. 200 miles between shows was meant when we had horse and buggies and Volkswagen vans and rocky roads. And it took a long time to get there. We now have million-dollar houses with diesel engines, and and you can bathe your dog on your way to the show and in your RV, or you can just get in your fast car and drive down in interstate at 90 miles an hour in Texas and 70 miles an hour in Michigan and 75 in Michigan when you go farther enough north. You can be at the show in four hours. So why do we have 200? It should be at least 300. Okay, that's gonna mean some small shows are gonna have to drop off. And that's true. It's gonna have to happen. And there'll be a lot of things that need to be done. You can't just say you're too small. You just have to come up with a number and stick to it, parameters that you can't change and say, if you're not getting this many dogs, um, you just can't have your shows. Uh, a lot of people want to do that. I don't want to do that. I'm gonna say you're just not getting at least 500 dogs. You can have a show, but guess what? They're not championship shows, they're open shows.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, yes. I think that's I think that's the only logical way to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So you're not offending anybody, they can still make their money. So the club's gonna say, well, I can't get enough dogs to come. So yes, you can, because you can get all the points you want and even one major at the open shows. But to get that second major, you have to go to a championship show. Or maybe you say you can get all the singles you want at an open show, um, but you can't get a major unless you go to the championship shows. And mix it up any way you want to do it. But um I would think that top handlers wouldn't necessarily go to those shows um unless they wanted to have a bunch of class talks to finish. So maybe the owner handlers who always seem to feel you know their second fiddle to the pros at Albreach at the championship shows, maybe they'll have their own little set of shows to play in and have their own owner handlers. That might be beneficial for them at both shows. They can of course go to both. It's a minor league. And in minor league sports, I happen to know a little bit about them apart from hockey. In Kalamazoo, we have the ECHL team, East Coast Hockey League. Some of those guys go up and play in the show. You have to be a really good ref in the ECHL to get to the AHL. You have to be a really good ref in the HL to get to the NHL. So these open shows could be so like a practice round for your judges, too. And maybe they get more comfortable down there before they come to the open shows. Maybe they have to judge so many shows there before they come because I don't know. But something's got to be done. There's lots of creative ways to do it. I'm all for the open show thing. Just figure out how you want to do it. We don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think, you know, I think kind of what you're describing is what our fund matches used to be. I get in California, we used to have a thousand, twelve hundred entries of our fund matches in the 70s. And it was the same thing. It was like people that don't weren't even licensed to judge or wanted to learn, wanted to judge. It was a way for them to learn. It was for people to get their puppies out. So it's just, you know, kind of like an accelerated form of that, which we can we dearly need, I think. I think that's a great idea.

SPEAKER_00

They can do two days that way. Um there's ways for the clubs to make money with entry fees without having to put on a five, six-day cluster to try to get 400 entries. Right. It's just it it needs to change. And it's too bad, but when we had each club, when we had Saturday, now I know I'm too old to say Saturday and Sunday shows only. But when I mention it on my Facebook, guess what? Thousands of people dive in and go, yes, we love that. You can't do that anymore, probably. Things have changed.

SPEAKER_02

I, you know, I said, look, we're we're old, we're tired, uh, and woofstock, you know, admittedly, it's become more like a festival than a dog show, which which we love. But you know, we were setting up for a Monday and not getting home till the following Monday because we kept adding more special fees for wanting to come. And I said, look, we're gonna just pull the ratchet this back down to two days. Everybody said, Are you out of your mind? I mean, even Pirina, our drink, beloved, beloved Pirina, who has sponsored us forever. And God, what we do without them. What a great crew, what you know, great product, great crew, great people. Um, and they said, you know, we don't do two-day shows. And I said, Well, that would really be horrible if we don't have your sponsorship. And so um we talked and they said, Okay, let's just see what your entries are. Let's where the proof is in the pudding. Well, we had 1,800 dogs on a two-day show. And she said, Okay, you know, you showed us, all right, we're here for you. And now we're at three days. Um, which we don't, you know, we don't want to go back in four days if we can possibly help it. You know, maybe we'll add some more specialties, maybe. Uh, we'll see. I mean, I want to get our entries back up to around 2,02200, which I think we can easily do. Um, but I mean, I think that I I personally, when people call for two-day shows, I'm like, oh, yeah, that's great. Travel one day, you judge your days, you travel the day home, or maybe even that night, and then you're home and you're with your dogs, and you're with your family, and you're with your house. And um, and and I again, we're aging out. We're aging, we're old, you know.

SPEAKER_00

When I'm the I I'm not kidding when I say I'm the youngest one on the panel, at least half the times. That's scary. Yeah, it is. It really is.

SPEAKER_02

I know when we we used to be the young ones. We looked like the whippersnappers, right? And now I'm looking around, knees are gone and cataracts and hearts and everything else.

SPEAKER_00

I'm falling apart, and every other judge on the panel is older than me. How are they feeling, right?

SPEAKER_02

Uh exactly, exactly. And you know, here's the thing. What what are the exhibitors? And this is a real dilemma. What's the exhibitors? I'm still an exhibitor, you know, I love showing my dogs. Um, what are we gonna do when we don't have these stalwart judges that we all respect that draw entries that you, you know, you want their opinion and they're and they're either ill or they're dying off or whatever's happening. What where's the next generation coming from? I I don't, you know, I'm not saying that there are some good ones out there, but you know, not like we this took us 10 years to get a group. 10 years. And when we walked in that range, we knew what the hell we were doing, right? And these people that are getting groups in 18 months and two years, um, you know, why are they doing that?

SPEAKER_01

To find a lot.

SPEAKER_02

To fill slots. To fill slots absolutely handing people groups, you know, the AKC is handing people groups that they feel are deserving. Some people say, yeah, maybe they were, some people say, no, maybe they weren't. Uh that remains to be seen. But um we're we're in a critical place.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we are critical.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

If the open shows are big enough, you could really get someone to uh like a good field rep to watch them and see how many times they screw up. I mean, right now we have three times an hour, but the entry uh for your interviews. But and by the way, we're short field reps right now, too. Yes, we are. I mean, I am just I can't even look. A woman sent me a picture. I gave a beautiful Tibetan uh Terrier uh uh a non-sporting group, owner hand sporting group. She sent me a picture yesterday. I opened up and couldn't stop crying. I wanted to call Lynn.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Lynn Meyer, one of our greats, is gone. And and it's just it's it's I think it's a shock the sport. She was so young and so vibrant and so with it and so well loved, not as a per not only as a person, as a dog person, as

Training New Judges When Entries Are Thin

SPEAKER_00

a person who could show, trim, judge, anything. You could when you were interviewed by Lynn, you knew the breed she she knew the breed you were talking about. It was a pleasure. So I send this picture comes out in the envelope of a Tibetan terrier, and I think it's beautiful, by the way. And all I want to do is call call her and ask her about it, you know? Asking each other about it, it's what it's all about. And and and by the way, I mean, I I'm sorry it popped up in the middle like this, but um our sympathies, not to the just I mean, the family and um what her mom's gone through. Um and it's just I don't know. It's it's it's absolutely so sad and a great reminder of how we need to take care of ourselves. And and not only that, just she took care of herself. Be grateful for every day. And don't judge 22 shows in a row. Uh this friend of mine was in the hospital and missed the show this weekend. Um did he just did a five, wanted to go do a two for as a substitute, and he's leaving for Iowa in three days to do more shows. We can't do that to ourselves. We've got to just slow down. But the clubs need them. And you get a guy like Ken Murray on the panel, Jim Moses, there's so many of them. They're just so knowledgeable, and they're willing to talk to you about dogs. If you have a background, if you're coming up there going, teach me everything, why don't you start nine years ago? Well, go away, go learn, and then you can come ask me. You know, we just need we need a broader base of knowledge and and time. Um, I see dogs advertised by professional handlers. We're just talking about this. I just sent them away. Yeah, it blows my mind. These are professional handlers with dogs that are top-winning dogs, and they they put it in and featuring the dog's worst fault. I mean, stop doing that. Ask somebody that's like, just because you're running with it doesn't mean it's right. You better ask somebody who knows that previously post that picture.

SPEAKER_02

When they have Photoshop, the one right below it, yeah, yeah. The one on top is it, you know, like, is that the same dog? Okay. You know, I I I don't I don't know. You know, I I I think our sports are a little quandary. I really do. I don't I don't know what we're gonna do, how we're gonna fix it. I do love the idea of, you know, the open shows going if you don't have if you can't hit a certain number, then you're still allowed to have a show if you want. But we have way too many 200 and 300 dog dog shows.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, all the time. I mean, all the time.

SPEAKER_02

And and thinking through attrition, how long are these clubs gonna be able to afford with a two and three hundred dog entry to even put on a show? How are you gonna pay your judges? And and the airfares are crazy, and the hotels, like, are they gonna just go away because?

SPEAKER_00

You know, we're talking about I was talking about this with a couple judges last weekend. Um, and this is not whining. We do this because we love it. Absolutely. We would never do this because we would love it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, you know, you go pick up three suits after the weekend, 90 bucks dry cleaning. Do you have anything in your closet that you wouldn't? I'll bet 90% of the clothes in your closet you wouldn't own if you weren't judging. You wouldn't need them. I wouldn't. No, no, I don't either. I don't need five suits and ten sport coats anymore at all for anything. I need one blue blazer and maybe a funeral suit. That's all I really need. So thousands of dollars in that closet, and they get slobber all over them and liver in the pockets and smears from the whatever's. And well, certain breeds just stink when you get even close to them. So you have to have your suit dry cleaned every time. But um, that's one thing. And the time, it's the time, just rearranging your schedules, finding your points, doing the open. And then we get clubs all the time that don't send us a contract. We take another one and they call and go, What's up? You Facebook messaged me, asked if I wanted to judge. I said, Yes, please send me a contract, and they don't. Then what are you supposed to do?

SPEAKER_02

Um, you know, what I've started doing is I'll say, I'll look and I'll see if I want to go, number one. I've also started checking because I've had a small airport, so I have to connect through either San Francisco or Denver. And San Francisco's always a nightmare. Well, they're both they're both nightmare. But um, is it gonna take me three stops to get somewhere? If it's gonna take me three stops, so I always I'll take the information, I'll call you back or whatever. But if it's gonna take me three stops with a couple of two-hour layovers, no, I'm not going. I'm just too old. I I'm too cranky, I don't want to sit at an airport and and possibly miss uh, you know, your second flight or your third flight, and then you're not gonna get in at all. So I think that's a big consideration for people who travel right now, is also on top of everything else, right?

SPEAKER_00

Um and by the way, cataract surgery, one of the reasons I went for is because I couldn't drive as well at night. Right. And um, what if you get into an airport at 10 o'clock and find that you have a two and a half hour drive at night to the show? Sir that's happened uh more than once. Uh yes.

SPEAKER_02

Especially women when you're by yourself. Yes, yeah. Taking Uber as a woman late at night, you know. Um there's an incident who I won't even say to state that I pre-arranged an Uber ride. And uh they sent you a picture of this picking up. This was 4 a.m. And the picture of this person, there was no way I was getting into the person. I was like, oh hell no, no, no, no. So I I just hit cancel and I canceled it.

SPEAKER_00

But um, you know, it He probably it could have been the nicest

Travel, Safety, And Health On The Road

SPEAKER_00

person in the world, but you can't take your chances when it's late at night. You just don't know.

SPEAKER_02

And and why would anybody put a picture like that on, you know, as to represent them, I'm probably sure. You know, I I think that especially in a lot of us uh are single and traveling alone.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Hey, judge enough, you're gonna be single eventually. You're gone every week, right?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, it it does become a thing where um safety for everybody is concerned. And when you're a handler and you're driving all hours to go 300 shows a year, 250 shows a year, which means you're always on the road. You're never home. I talk to handlers who have to schedule an oil change for the two hours of their home on a half day. They're just not home. They've got to be on the road. The more miles you, the more you're on the road, the more chances for something bad to happen. And uh it's just not I have another plan, and I'm working with with um Chronicle on it now. I can't reveal it yet, but I really think it's gonna change a lot of that. It changes the ranking system in a way that I really think will change a whole lot. A whole lot. Like it could create its own open show concept, it could result in creating its own levels of of um show, and and it could really stop the stupid going to 300 shows a year. And um, because that's not good for people, it's not good for dogs. And by the way, when you're on the road 300 days a year, what are you eating? McDonald's. Yeah, uh huh. Junk food on the road, truck stop stuff if you're lucky. Um, maybe maybe you're really lucky and you get to go to um what's the guy with the big big beaver on his sh shirt that's up in the sky and everywhere. Buckeys, Bucky's Bucky's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I've never been to Bucky's. I'm like, it's a it's on my bucket list. I have to go to Bucky's. I have never been to Bucky's.

SPEAKER_00

Just once, but you do have to go.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, just once.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, just once. Because it's it's the most incredibly run thing I've ever seen in my life. The management does not have to go. Anyway, enough of Buckeys, but that's where you're eating. And I'm not saying you can't find the right selections in those places, but it's not sitting down eating a healthy meal. For the handlers that are smart enough and have the time. When I work for Forsyth's, we went to dinner, a real nice dinner every night together. Now, that requires the help to do everything possible. And you better have those dogs in, out, in, out, clean, perfect, and the whole truck better look perfect. And then you come panting, running into dinner, sweating. I'm ready, Bob. And then you but we had the clients. We learned how to eat, we learned what to order, and we learned how to sort of be um other than than old junior heathens trying to run around uh doing everything at once. So those experiences are gone. Club identity's gone. When you went to, when you when you went to Monmouth County County Club, it was beautiful. We had green jackets and white pants, the rings, the this is Ed McGoff's, Henry Stecker's, my dad. Um, these shows were, you knew you were there. And everybody in Monmouth County knew you were there. The crowd, the public was there because they knew it was one identified one identifiable event that go one day a year, and it became a picnic and a party. And I can't, I can't even count the number of people who brought their families there every year and then decided, you know what, I think I want to do this. We don't have that anymore. Do you even know what show you're judging at until you fill out your expense report? You don't even know anymore. You know, it's one big cluster.

SPEAKER_02

I'm doing it a lot, you know, like I I get them all mixed up and I'll say, Oh, you know, one of the M states or one of the W states example. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, M and I states. The um and and the the thing about, and then you have to pack up, break everything down, and go to playing field. Okay. That was uh inconvenient. But you only had to do it once a week um if you went to all every weekend, because you're only going to Saturday and Sunday shows, maybe Friday thrown in. Um and by the way, junior showmanship was not available on weekdays. Not available.

SPEAKER_02

Uh yeah, there's something to be said about that as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Homeschooling, nothing we could do on it. But we have really got to look at this objectively and say, time to reel it in. My last two articles have been about some things we can are of concerns um that we need to look at. And in my next one, I hope it's the next one or maybe the month after, will I think be a an article that could create a glacial shift that could change things a lot. It requires a lot, it requires the magazines to all get along together. But um anyway, the AKC can sell this data to us. They don't need to make it impossible for me to cry. I'm trying to help. I'm trying to help. I just need the numbers. And I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Here's the other thing that I'm hearing from um that I that I'm hearing from a lot of the um per major. I still say provisional. Yeah. Um, and I'm about to step into that with my terrier breeds, that I'm still thinking I've lost my mind. But anyway, um, is that they have to be to get an observation, it has to be a major.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And these low entry breeds, you just don't get majors. And and these two and three hundred dog dog shows, you don't get majors. I think we had over 300 at Willstock this year, but boy, that's rare. So now you're not getting observed, so you're stuck. So you're not learning

Club Identity And Bringing The Public Back

SPEAKER_02

and you're not seeing dogs, and you're not, you know, all of that. So, um, and some of the reps, let me our majors are so busy they can't possibly do all of these observations. So is the answer, and we're short on reps. So, you know, some of the larger shows have two reps, but now you're down on reps as well. So when are these judges going to get observed? So it's a real quagmire, really.

SPEAKER_00

I went I was at a show a couple weekends ago, and um there were no reps, and it was a 400 and some dog show. Um, there was a high quality turnout of dogs, too, and a really good panel. That was David Kirkland and and um and Angela Pickett and I. We just had a wonderful time together. But um we there's gotta be some way to do this because almost everyone's a permit judge now, by the way. Everybody that I know is a no matter you've been doing this for five, you have six groups or five groups, you still probably are gonna be provisional or permanent in one or two. It is, it's not only a problem, Kim, um, trying to get a major in wire fox terriers to be observed under, when you don't get that many, because we have we're we've spread the entry so thin. Yeah, how are you gonna learn about a breed? When you see this two dogs in every every show you go, do you just see two? You might think the one wins all uh it might be the better one, but what do you know about the breed?

SPEAKER_02

You know, it happens when you bring these new breeds in. The other thing is, is um, you know, or I was judging uh at Marjorie's show in New Jersey, The March Madness, a great cluster by the way it was some great quality dogs. Yeah, great numbers, great quality dogs, great club members. Um, there are very few class entries. There'll be like maybe, you know, three class dogs, and then there'll be 20 specials. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, it's not that hard to finish one, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right, yeah. But I mean, so you do get to see the quality, but they're all in specials. So um, you know, that's also so you have you're a new judge, and all of a sudden, you know, you don't really get to cut your teeth on like class dogs and sorting for a major or for a you know, and all of a sudden, when that 20 specials in front of you, and you're like, okay, let's let's attack this, right? So that's intimidating for judges as well, right?

SPEAKER_00

We are on the job training. That's what we do. That's how we learn. We are on the job training. Yeah, and no one wants to admit that, but you can't go, you think you might know about Springer Spaniels, judge a few hundred of them with big entries, 20, 25, 30 of them, repeatedly for a couple of years, you'll learn more. Um, you just can't help it. You have to see a variety to compare. And I love the example, and I've talked about before. You bring me one, I don't know, Polish Lowland cheapdog into an overhandler group, and I'm like, oh, you give me 10 of those? I can find the best one, guarantee you, even though I don't know anything about it. Um, but you put one in there by itself with no one to compare it to? So this is when you know you don't you really aren't that dialed in on a breed. Um, judging when you have something to judge against, it's it's not that hard. If you have an eye for a dog, and not many people do, I'm finding out. You can teach them all you want, but my goodness, how can you miss that?

SPEAKER_02

They have to have, yeah, and they have to know anatomy, which a lot of them don't. But you know, I I think that there's nothing like just getting in there. I mean, me with my terriers, I'm like terrified. I I I have 12 now. You're terrified. And I, yeah, I am terrified. I am, and I'm not, you know, Bill McFaddy m up to me this last Edward Stock. And he said, So um, are you ever gonna judge your 12 briefs? I said, not yet, not yet. I'm still doing nationals, I'm still doing in-ring, so I'm going to a governing. And he's like, uh, okay, well, I have like three clubs that are interested in hiring you. I said, no, no, no. He said, well, these are for next year. Do you think you'll be ready to? And I'm like, oh no.

SPEAKER_00

But if you put a Facebook post up and say when you terrier judge, oh, you'll get a thousand responses from people you never heard of. And that's the problem. You you should you would learn by judging. You need to just start judging them. You have an eye for a dog.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I know that he answered me, just get in there and start slugging it out, right? It's true. But you know, the opposite. I'm like, I don't want to walk in and make an ass out of myself because I want people to know that I try really hard and I'm trying to understand. I hopefully have a good eye bird dog. But you know, I as opposed to there's a whole crowd now, the younger ones that just don't judge anything, just give them to them, you know. Let me in there, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Let's see, Coach. Um, by the way, the thing about terriers that you're really afraid of is you mess up in front of terrier people, they're terriers, they're gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, trust me.

SPEAKER_02

I trust me, I know. I, you know, I I grew up in Southern California with you know Rick Cashutian and Wood Warnall and and Eddie Boy's and uh, you know, and then we had the two nice ones. We had Bogan and Joel McFadden. The Rick's just one were like really neat, and when they lost.

SPEAKER_00

But again, we're gonna need to you're just gonna need to judge those and then learn as you go because there's you're not gonna see enough seskies. Well, I'm talking about yeah, they're terriers. Um you're not gonna learn about and I can't tell how many terrier people say you've gotta apply for terriers. You'd be great at this. Look what we have to put up with every weekend. And I think what they're saying is those people are so bad that even you could do it, Kavanaugh.

SPEAKER_02

It's all relative. It all the heck are you doing it in some right? You know, I know, but it's just like getting your brave, getting your brave shoes on, you know, I guess. Yeah, exactly. But um, I and then you know, I I don't know what the answer is with, you know, the there is an answer. There isn't an answer for the cancellations, and all of us in that group are all aging out and getting old and having health issues. And, you know, um, I I don't know what the answer is. It I can tell you it's it's terrorizing for you know clubs trying to replace people at the last minute. It's really difficult.

SPEAKER_00

Well, we had a wonderful example of that in the sport that I love, hockey. Um, this year at the Stanley Cup. Congratulations to Carolina Hurricans. I am so damn excited for those boys. I am really, I'm just thrilled they won the cup. Story of Las Vegas and it's our boys are cooler and nicer. Um, but anyway, um, the way this worked is this guy named Busy was the saver who came in and won the he well, he won the Stanley Cup. Right. And he won the as soon as Anderson got hurt. Now, what people don't know is that Bussey was down in um somewhere in Florida playing for some ECHL team or something, and he got cut and he knew, or maybe playing for the HL, and he was gonna get sent down to Greenville or something. So he wasn't, he was just, he put his resume on LinkedIn a month ago. Seriously. He and his fiancee are driving up from Florida to come home and try to get that new job and maybe play in the minors another, you know, a season or so. He gets a call. Hey, where are you? Well, we're in North Carolina. Well, um, that's good because you're not too far away, because we need you to play in the Stanley Cup finals tomorrow. What? So, and by the way, he played here at Western Michigan University. We know the guy. We don't know him personally, but we know he's a good goalie. He just got pushed and chubbed and shoved around and not a loved. And and Rod Brindemore trusted him, and he sure as heck made a case for being great. But they have a thing in hockey called emergency backup goalie, e-bugs. Emergency backup goalie. We call them e-bugs. Brody was one. Um, so you'd be uh you you bring two goalies to the show and maybe three, and sometimes they all get hurt or sick. And you don't have a goaltender. And they get a guy who plays in the beer league at night, who used to be a goaltender, but he's you know working at an executive job or something, and all of a sudden you have to call him. But every team has to have an e-bug on call. And then no, then the chance of them getting calls is gonna be a million and one. And it might even be a chance that they're not gonna play, but at least there'll be the backup goalie on the bench. Because you need to you need to have at least one guy, always have to one guy back up, right?

SPEAKER_02

So question, so question about that then is the club paying for the e-bugs to be there?

SPEAKER_00

They don't have to be there, they just have to be nearby.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, nearby.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. Yeah. Hockey club pays. Okay. So you are the, you know, you're designated. Hey, we got a couple e-bugs in town. Uh, we know who they are. If we need them, yeah, you can call them. Here's their numbers, and you call them. And um, and some clubs make it a habit of having e-bugs in certain places where they have. Um, but yeah, bro, Brody was skating. Uh, he was doing a men's skate. Um, and he was young and studly and and very good at that point, but he was in he was in school. And um, he was doing a men's skate in the morning, and um guy called him over and uh said, Hey, what are you doing? It's six o'clock. And Brody was probably eating dinner yet. No, actually you're gonna play against Chicago Express.

Emergency Backup Judges For Clusters

SPEAKER_00

And he got paid and he had it, they had a jersey with his name on it by the time he got to practice a couple hours later. So we don't have that. We almost need emergency backup judges assigned to every cluster or show um that hold the date.

SPEAKER_02

That's not a bad idea, especially if you have judges in your local area. Really, I mean, yeah, they may have they may be judging us elsewhere on that weekend, but it wouldn't hurt to find out how they're gonna be home. I mean, well, like, you know, poor George Maltovich with this take the lead booth last week and it was like, you know, I like George, you're gonna shut your boot down. He goes, What do you mean I'm gonna shut it down? I said, because you're gonna be judging. I am? I believe, yeah, shut your boot down, right? So, but I think that might, you know, you can just hit on something there. Yeah, that's not me. How many judges, especially if you've got some permit judges that have most of the group, part of the group, that on an emergency basis they can step in? That's really not a bad idea, Wayne.

SPEAKER_00

And maybe the AKC or the reps should say, okay, this person has three groups, but really can do all of them. An emergency base, and we're talking about an emergency basis. So put that person on your application uh for your show and make sure that person knows um that you may be called. Um, because otherwise, I mean Frank Cows.

SPEAKER_02

Judges would jump at that. I bet they would jump at that. Yeah. That's a hell of an idea.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's something to throw out there, but it I've not been to a show in a long time and there wasn't it. You go back, would you have five of those cars hanging up? Change of judges, superintendent's booth.

SPEAKER_02

Like, yeah, oh the whole wall was full. The whole wall. Literally the whole. I'm sure we must have set some sort of record. I can't imagine that there would be anything worse with a 1900 log show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And there has to be a uh a rep or someone at the AKC that can say, okay, maybe they're not licensed for that, but they can do it. Um we've got plenty of people who are way they can do so many more breeds than their stu than they are up to. Absolutely. They've got a whole lot more that shouldn't be Jewish. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

That's the way the system works, and there's not much you can do there. So I don't know. We got to change the mileage between shows, um, create a new rating system that I'm gonna talk about when I can, um, that can structure that and put the open show category to be a cool thing. If you're a small club and you're only getting 250 dogs now, you can put on a heck of a match, a heck of an open show, a meet the breeds, uh, you know, your county can know it's every year and come out and you can invite them to advertise to the public. By the way, the AKC knows everybody who registered a dog everywhere. So if you say I'm in the 49009 area code, I'm gonna put on a match and open show and some educational stuff. Everybody within, you know, 50 miles of me that has registered a dog, just tell them we have an event. They don't have to be, certainly don't have to be show dogs or even uh obedience dogs or anything. Just hey, if you're bred dog, we know that it's free to send an email. We know your emails, by the way, too, when you register your dog. So send an email blast for 100 miles around, 50 miles around saying, hey, why hasn't that ever been done in the past?

SPEAKER_02

That's a great idea. Why hasn't that been done? I mean, there's a great opportunity. Well, I kind of am digging on this e-bug thing with the judges, especially if you tell permit judges, you know, you take their zip code within a certain mileage and you say, you know, you've got this kettle pub, this kettle pub, and a list of kettle pubs, and then you'd let you let those kettle pubs know this is who you have in your geographical area on permit. Yeah. I mean, that's a hell of an idea. And I wish you'd even jump at it to that.

SPEAKER_00

And maybe it's even, I mean, there's some people sitting home. Uh, Paul Edwards, poodle, extraordinaire, and a great dogman, great dogman, and super eye. He doesn't want to go through the hassle of going through all these applications. He should be judging, and I understand he doesn't want to go through what we have to go through with the applications and the screening and all that, nor should he. But he might be willing to just jump up and be an e-bug someday and make those people that are that good that we just know, um, yeah, that don't even have to be approved. I don't know. But there's ways.

SPEAKER_02

I look at look at look at you know, uh Horace Hay and Susie. They're not the least fit in. They say we're not going through all that, you know. Right.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, there's a whole that's a whole cool idea. I I'm liking this, and I'd like you to permit judges would as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So you have to do it. I mean, we're gonna have to do it. But I really think that these these shows that these clubs don't have to fold. And by the way, extinction, it's not always a bad thing. Do you want dinosaurs stepping on your house right now? So so extinction is horrible in most cases. But but do we need clubs that are barely hanging on and losing money? Those people have put their life into this thing. They love what they do, but there's just not the interest in their area anymore or the population anymore in their region. Maybe they need to get together and do something else, or you know, you know, split the dishes and move on. But I think there's an opportunity for this match open show thing where if the expense isn't going to be as much. Um, you can probably get away with a venue. Uh we've had them in people's backyards, big backyards. Sure. Um, one of the biggest Irish Wolfhound shows every year is in Gretchen Bernard's backyard. Um, it's not an official show. Silverwood isn't either. Um, but that's where you go. Uh people still have those properties. They can hold $150, $200. You don't need to rent the, you know, the convention center to do it. So stratify this and to have different, we need to a lot more thought and process and creativity into the system to build these things, but it can be done. Don't tell me it can't, because you know, so what are you going to do about it? Nothing? Yeah, there's plenty of things you can do. Mileage will help it fall away. A new ranking system will help it fall away. Um, giving judges uh and having clubs have options to do other things, to have open shows. Um, maybe they don't want to fold, but they can probably put on a hunter dog show and as an open show. Um, and then you can structure those open shows to say you can get points there, you can't get points, you can get championship points, but not in a major, whatever you want to do to keep them intact and keep them active and serve their community. Dog clubs used to serve their community. What a concept that was.

SPEAKER_02

It worked for about you know, with the limited amount of you know, venues that are local that people can, you know, walk to or bring their families to, it's getting more and more rare. I mean, so yeah. It is. It is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And, you know, you lose rounds late sometimes too. So we've got to have some workarounds. We don't need 1,724 championship dog shows in America. That's just my feeling. The reasons for it are A, it's crazy that dogs have to go to that many shows to get ranked. And we do. It's crazy that the dog's health, the handler's health, by the way, the judge's health, the steward's health, the superintendent's health, the photographer's health, going to that many events a year. It's ridiculous. It's just not healthy. And we're going to burn out. And people already do burn out and leave. It's too expensive to have to play.

Seeing Enough Dogs To Develop An Eye

SPEAKER_00

If you want a top-winning dog, you don't have to go to three man shows. Well, you can't because you don't have the money. Maybe you have it to go to a hundred shows. Um there's so many things that we can do to make that worthwhile. Um, also, what when you can do this thing and cut down the champion on the number shows, you're going to get a better judging population. It's just going to have to be that way. You're not going to have the complaints we have now. You're not going to have to be bringing in judges from other countries that haven't seen 14 dogs in their life. Not their fault. It's by the way, it's not their fault. We're putting them in these positions because we have no option. And they're all a breed. They're all breeder approved from multi-groups. And and um Well, look at the Canadian judges. I mean, uh, you know, people, you know, there are some great Canadian judges.

SPEAKER_02

Very, many, many, many good judges.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

The, you know, so so people bang on them all the time, which is not fair. However, they do live, many of them, in very remote areas. They have maybe one show in their area, but all, and there are 200 dog shows, and they go through an average, I think we were on a list a couple years ago, about 10 years to become an all-breed judge, but they don't get to see the amount of dogs. So it it's not a matter of that they're bad judges, it's just that they live remotely, they don't get to see that many dogs, right? Um, and the ones that get judge a lot of, especially the judge of the United States, there are some very, very good ones. But I think it's all about seeing dogs and getting your hands on them and being, you know, not living in remote areas.

SPEAKER_00

It's on-the-job training. And if you don't have any dogs to train on, I don't care if it's 10 years or 25 years, if you just haven't seen enough good ones and groups of at least 10, you're never going to develop that eye. It just doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_01

Your brain doesn't work that way.

SPEAKER_00

You can't, it's like seeing the only Spanish war dog in a owner-handler group. That's the only one you ever get to see. Go try to do the national. You make an idiot of yourself because you haven't judged bunches. So yeah, it's it's the system needs so much work. And I'm done, I don't want to be the one complaining, there's too many. I'm going to start, and my last couple articles that talked about that, how we can start tapering it down. And hopefully the next few issues or towards the end of the year, I can have some more concrete suggestions. Not just me. I need to hear from other people. Let them write it too. Um, we're all complaining about it, but not enough's getting done. And I think it's time that we get bold and creative decisions. If the AKC doesn't want to do it because they like the fact that there's lots of shows, and some people say they do like that, maybe there's other ways we can taper that and work together. Um the idea that they now, if you have an obedience title dog, there's a show coming up, and they can send you an email to say, hey, is an obedience show coming up? I know they can do that. We did that in another registry, and they kind of picked up on it. So there's some of that going on, it can get better, it can go to any owner. Um, Mike, the way I did it was did you know that your dog has a champion, this champion, that, and any, you know, confirmation uh was sired by or the mother was, you know, we talked to them. Um, and and your dog has that pedigree. Would you like to go see what that's like at this event? We did that and we got the public to come to a lot more events. Great idea. There's lots of great ideas. Yeah. We need creative thinking. We need to stop just thinking that it's it's still 1964. Um, I wish it was for dog shows.

SPEAKER_02

I wish it was 1980 because we had Yeah, the 80s were the late 70s and 80s were awesome, awesome years.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, registering 1.3 million dog, 1.3 million dogs a year instead of 300,000 or 400,000. Yeah. It was a different time. We're lucky to have lived it. But there is room for everybody in this sport. And if you're new, don't get discouraged. You can find your way through. There's ways. My son works a whole lot, and uh he has patience to see, and it's it's it's not easy to just get away from him. He's managing to find, he'll he'll look at me and go, Saturday and Sunday. Are these judges any good? I don't care if I can win. Or there's someone you would pay you would ask for their opinion. And I'll say yes or no. That's how he spends his money. And you can do it that way. Um you can do it. There's one, plenty of ways to to participate without going to 300 shows a weekend and still enjoy it. In fact, you might enjoy it more. Um, you might learn more, and you might not get discouraged from terrible judging. I'm not saying we all have terrible judging, but it could be better. And some shows, by the way, it is terrible. Say it, but it's true. You've been on those.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's well, but there's, you know, there's some great ideas we've tossed out here, some really great ideas that I think we should.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Mary Dukes did a wonderful thing. She sent me, or she just posted something saying, um, it's great. We all know this. What are the solutions? And yeah, it's it's she's inspired to me to do even more research. It's it takes me so much time to hand count this stuff. It's I I don't have an a I might as well get an abacus and just start doing the beads. It's that ancient.

SPEAKER_02

But um Well, you would think that AKC would have something uh more concrete, you know, that's the same.

SPEAKER_00

You'd have to have a created enough mind to say we need that data. How can we use it? They had the greatest goal mine of data, and in my opinion, they're not doing enough mining of that data to make money for themselves and to help people breed better dogs. And they get all the OFA stuff dumped to them. They don't do a thing with it, and um, and help them put on better shows. A great AKC idea. There's a seminar coming up, uh, might be today or tomorrow. How to improve your show, how to make it a better show. That's the coolest thing they've done all year. Um I don't know how it's gonna be, but it seems to me like that's a really good effort in trying to get shows to improve themselves so they're improved their entry. Um we all need to get better at everything we do, including us. Yep.

SPEAKER_02

It's all about thinking outside the box.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's what it's about. Because I love the breed and I've seen plenty of them in other countries and here. But um, you don't think I'm gonna be spending the rest of this next couple months learning even more and more and more about Barbie? Um, I have no problem walking in and finding the best one. That's not that's not the end. That's not what you want to do. You want

Listener Ideas, Industry Change, And Closing

SPEAKER_00

to know why, and you want to be able to think to yourself, if I had that dog, I'd breed to that bitch over there. You want to get your mind thinking as a breeder. Um so yeah. Until I can be there, uh you know, I don't want to put myself in a spot. So off we go. I love the Barbade people, by the way. They are the coolest group of people, one of the coolest nicest group of people. You'll have they all work together. And the good news is some of them, some of them also have English toy spaniels now. Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, one more thing. Some people are opposed to getting placement in the group to get your majors. Let me tell you, I am not. With an English toy spaniel, I can go to the next 50 shows and see none, or maybe one or two. Um by placing the group three times in one weekend, I finished them. Um, and I got to do it by competing against good dogs. They wouldn't have a couple that were good in my breed, too, but not in the group. And I've done it with pointers, I've done it with plenty of breeds. Um, Irish Wolfhounds, you don't see many of those at shows. If you go to the national, count on 300.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right. Lots in one podcast. We'll we'll uh we got a lot going on. Kim, it's been a pleasure. Thanks to Tom and Amy and the Chronic Canine Chronicle for their support. Uh, we want your ideas, send them all to Kim's email. Uh that's available in the judges book.

SPEAKER_02

We do though. Seriously, guys. Anyone to us on some of this stuff we're throwing around, we want to hear from you. I mean, maybe yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Apologies on the articles that I've posted on Facebook from the Chronicle. When I say 65,000 views, I'm not kidding. And I've gotten a lot of emails and messages. I'm trying to get back to all of them. I can't always, so forgive me if I can't. Some of them are so long in detail, they're wonderful. But um, I'm trying. Um, and that's not just because I don't think it's because we're smart. I don't think it's because we're writing something interesting. I think it's people are hungry for change. They're hungry.

SPEAKER_02

Well, and maybe maybe we'll get sophisticated enough at some point that we can have some of these people on that are great idea people and interview them on our podcast, you know.

SPEAKER_00

And I'm sure there's there are plenty of smarter people than me and more creative people than me. That we all need to check in.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna I'm gonna attach you on the back here, my friend. I think you're one of the, honestly, from the bottom of my heart, one of the best dogmen on the planet. And also Tom and Amy Gravy, uh, with Canaan Chronicle. Again, same, you know, same type of people, just great people, smart people, good business people, yourself included. Um, you know, you should have been judging a long time ago. We know that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, when Jimmy, Jimmy Moses called me, I've told the story a million times and said, uh, you gotta get you gotta get back at judging. And uh I said, I don't know, it's just too much of a hassle. And he said, uh, first of all, it's in your blood, you can't help it. And second of all, tired of eating lunch with dumb people.

SPEAKER_01

I swear to people. Yeah, no, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

We want to talk about dogs. That's what you want to do. We love it. We do. And we learn from each other every day, too. So anyway, all that and more. Thanks again. Um, we're signing off. We have a both of us. I didn't even have any coffee today. We're just on a rampage. Thanks, Kim, as always. We'll be back at again. We're gonna try to get more regular at these, our schedules and our little detour last few months. And uh we'll talk to you soon. Let us know what you're thinking, let the chronicle know what you're thinking, and um keep going to the shows in a way that's good and healthy and positive for you so you can enjoy the sport. It's supposed to be fun. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02

It's it it's all about fun. It's it's all come to Wolfstock, it's all about fun. You'll you'll understand. And you know, all the naysayers and the gossipers and the, you know, there's a thing that went down last week, you know, with people running to the reps and saying crazy things. You know, ignore all those people. There's crazy people in all walks of life, you know.

SPEAKER_00

We really need Westminster, we need Mars Essex, we need the shows around. We need every kind. We also need some fun. They don't have to all be that'd be terrible if they were all Wolfstock or if they were all Westminster. We want encouragement and have a variety, but don't stop being creative and thinking. Anyway, we gotta go. Thanks, Kim. Until next time. I'm Wayne Kavanaugh, and she's Kimberly Meredith.

SPEAKER_02

And guess what?

SPEAKER_00

We're still standing. Good night, everyone.