Nadia's Women of Fintech Podcast | Rosie McConnell, Head of Product at IFX Payments

This week, Nadia was joined by Rosie McConnell, Head of Product at IFX Payments.

Rosie is a passionate champion of value-led change in an industry that is predominantly dominated by men. Through helping to advance the Women of FinTech agenda, as well as working towards maintaining a "cognitively diverse" team, Rosie is here to share her story and some of the lessons along the way. 

Rosie dives into the importance of grabbing unique opportunities whenever they present themselves, but also maintaining your integrity and ensuring your decisions and personal values align. 

FinTech's DEI Discussions is powered by Harrington Starr, global leaders in Financial Technology Recruitment. For more episodes or recruitment advice, please visit our website www.harringtonstarr.com

Transcript

(Transcript auto-generated by Adobe – not 100% accurate)

00:00:00:13 - 00:00:23:12
nadia
Welcome to the Harrington starr fintech, diversity, equity and inclusion discussions. I want to showcase people across our industry who are advocates for change. I love to celebrate the wins, but we know there is so much more to be done to ensure that change actually happens to build a truly inclusive industry in these diversity, equity and inclusion discussions

00:00:23:13 - 00:00:43:05
nadia
. I have a number of series the humans of fintech, the talent, surgery, the maternity and paternity stories, and the longest running of all the women a fintech podcast series. I did lots of work to drive change campaigns across our industry to increase inclusion within the workplace, so please contact me to see how we can partner together.

00:00:43:14 - 00:01:12:20
nadia
You can contact me through LinkedIn or my email nadia Edwards hyphen dashti at Harrington starr dot com. In the meantime, enjoy the show. Welcome to the Women of Fintech podcast series we are here today to celebrate the wins, raise awareness of the challenges and walk the talk for change across the entire industry.

00:01:13:02 - 00:01:33:08
nadia
Today we are joined by Rosie McConnell, head of product at FX Payments. Rosie is a passionate champion of value that change in an industry that is predominantly dominated by men through helping to advance women in fintech agenda, as well as working towards maintaining a culturally diverse team which relies on people from all backgrounds and experiences working

00:01:33:08 - 00:01:47:10
nadia
together. She is here today to share her story and some of the lessons along the way. Rosie, welcome. It's great to have you here. Thank you, Nadia. Great. Great hits you. We're excited for conversations today. I'm brilliant. So let's kick things off.

00:01:47:10 - 00:01:59:18
nadia
Tell us a little bit about your role effects and what that actually entails. Yeah. So I'm the head of products IFX in that role. I covered quite a few, a few different responsibilities. It's really exciting for me.

00:01:59:19 - 00:02:14:10
nadia
I'm really close with the development team in that capacity at the product starting out, which is one of the scrum roles. So what that means is I'm responsible for ensuring that the sort of big projects we've got for the team are working on a sort of broken down into a consumable way that means they can they can

00:02:14:10 - 00:02:31:07
nadia
start building those in and it's a scrum and sprint framework. So I manage the product roadmap effects, a lot of changes going on there at the moment. A couple of different initiatives, which I'm working on this year, mainly focussed on automation, something we're really interested at the moment.

00:02:31:07 - 00:02:41:19
nadia
You know, how can we take away a lot of manual work from our teams and show that we're getting payments on foreign exchange bookings quickly through our system? Also got some really exciting work under the sort of branch of diversification.

00:02:41:19 - 00:02:52:09
nadia
So that's how can we take our product and make this best fit for all the different types of clients and industries that we have? And also, how can we live to also provide a network and make sure that we're not too?

00:02:52:23 - 00:03:05:05
nadia
We don't have to have to create too much risk in the way that we're set up with those with those partners. And lastly, another initiative around globalisation. So how can we take our current products and make sure that it's fit across all markets?

00:03:05:05 - 00:03:18:21
nadia
So lots of work going on there? And you know, I'm responsible for making sure that the product vision before our product roadmap is is cohesive and that you can kind of see a direct link between what projects are working on and how they relate to the product vision.

00:03:18:22 - 00:03:34:04
nadia
So I'm responsible for working with all aspects of the business. So working directly with the compliance team, working with our operations team, working very closely with the sales team who are speaking to our customers all the time and just understanding what it is, it's kind of going on in the business and what it is that's going on

00:03:34:04 - 00:03:44:09
nadia
in the market and what we need to be working on and what we need to be developing our products to ensure that we're, you know, we're keeping up to date with the latest regulations. We're building things our customers really want.

00:03:44:20 - 00:04:01:13
nadia
You know, it's really exciting. Well, it's really broad, and it means I get to speak to all sorts of different people in the business all the time. And I'm multifaceted role. And you know, I love that. Yeah, it sounds like, wow, you get involved in pretty much every single team within the business to to have this roadmap

00:04:01:15 - 00:04:15:11
nadia
followed correctly and and to be on to to the market out there. So that kind of leads me to my next question. You know what actually is unique about effects and the product that you have? Yeah. Well, I think that's a yes, cool question.

00:04:16:14 - 00:04:29:00
nadia
You know, effects is really interesting company. And you know, we're so proud to be on company. We've been around for 15 years. At the beginning, that was a really small outfit. So just a couple of guys who are selling effects on the on the phone to that sort of portfolio of customers.

00:04:29:00 - 00:04:40:19
nadia
The customers they were targeting then were generally high net worth individuals. So we had these pretty high value transactions, but low low volume as a team sort of grew and, you know, artefacts of success, continued the sales team.

00:04:41:11 - 00:04:58:22
nadia
That meant that we started targeting different types of clients. So we started moving away from of the private brokers what we call and I think, also ethical retail, a certificate, corporates. So while we're sort of servicing those corporate clients, we've got more requirements from them, not just wanting to know about the booking, but also, you know and

00:04:58:22 - 00:05:13:21
nadia
about rights, really. They don't want to just get the best rate, but also things around how could they pay off? How can we pay them? What kind of reporting functionality do we have? Not really. Quite large pivot for us in terms of the way that we thought, our interaction with the way we service the customer.

00:05:14:02 - 00:05:30:05
nadia
So that was a really big pivot for our facts, and I think that's something that is really unique about working effects. In particular, the amount of pivots that we've sort of weathered through, you know, our artefacts was completely sort of self-funded as a bootstrap project, which I think is really unique as well to just to start ups

00:05:30:05 - 00:05:45:05
nadia
in particular. That meant that we were, you know, really kind of following the the revenue that we made every month. And so that there's a pivot around sort of moving into the corporate space. And then once we established, you know, a customer base there now somewhere that it started to build out those those products more.

00:05:45:05 - 00:05:57:11
nadia
So we were looking at things like settlement and paying the customer what we kind of built. That was an internal solution, really the way we could handle that for the client. But then we decided to commercialise that, and that's when we really entered the fintech space.

00:05:57:12 - 00:06:07:11
nadia
So that was probably about five years ago that we did that now, and we created a product called mass pay, which is a really. Medical products, it allows our clients to have to self-serve. We know they can do this affects bookings.

00:06:07:17 - 00:06:19:13
nadia
They want to pay multiple beneficiaries. They can do that themselves by accessing the Maspero portal online. The pivoted on our customer base then pivoted it at all. When all sort of service offering, we weren't there anymore. A phone brokerage.

00:06:19:13 - 00:06:31:03
nadia
I think that that kind of theme of the of these pivots and this big change is kind of following the market and be able to weather is is what is really unique to to to effects. I think also some of the products we've got now, you know, I'm the head of product course, I'm going to say this

00:06:31:03 - 00:06:41:23
nadia
, but I think Eye Bank is one of the best products out got at the moment. That's a virtual eye bond offering. There's not much like it on the market at the moment, and this really exciting product for any type of person.

00:06:41:23 - 00:06:58:07
nadia
He's got really kind of cash flow requirement. I think that some of the mixed effects are really unique. I think we're in another thing in the outside of the product space is the it's really the culture effects because of the way that we sort of groan because we've really bootstrapped all sort of way over the last 15

00:06:58:08 - 00:07:15:15
nadia
years. That's really amazing cultural effects and tons of people wanting to get things done. You know, we've been quite flat structure. And what that means is you've got a responsibility, I think, throughout the company on ensuring, you know, really good outcomes for us and we really have an empowered team who really enjoy working together.

00:07:15:17 - 00:07:30:05
nadia
We know that's something that's really new for me, and I think that kind of comes from comes from that history of buying facts and not history of being responsible for keeping the business going. So yeah, it's a it's a it's a really cool company and it's, you know, I've been his last two and a half years and

00:07:30:06 - 00:07:46:07
nadia
I, you know, I can imagine I'll be here for for much, much longer than that. Well, isn't that a great great thing to be able to say, and it's just so wonderful to hear what you're saying about the culture within within this industry and within the payment space, because a large part of why do these policies really

00:07:46:07 - 00:08:03:19
nadia
to show the outside world that fintech has changed so much and the financial services technology industry is so, so different to what people may perceive it to be, especially if they're outside of it? Now I know you've worked tirelessly in your career to build it and build it within a male dominated industry.

00:08:04:06 - 00:08:16:12
nadia
Can you just share a bit of that experience with us? Yeah, of course. So I started working in fintech. I was one of my sort of first jobs outside of outside of education. The year that I went to, it was supposed to go to university.

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:26:21
nadia
It was the year the prices went up. So that was a huge difference and sort of admissions that year. And I was one of people who decided that on balance, this was a university. It was the path I wanted to take.

00:08:26:21 - 00:08:40:07
nadia
So I went straight to work, you know, without the degree that what that meant is I had to start from bottom and worked my way up. So I started on a very entry level job. I worked for a company called Worldpay, who is a really big payment service providers where I really kind of cut my teeth and

00:08:40:07 - 00:08:55:18
nadia
I started an operations role, you know, at that time while I was going through a lot of change, particularly in the office, in my department. So I was there, I was able that sort of take advantage of that change and learn a lot about the payment industry.

00:08:55:19 - 00:09:13:07
nadia
So what was essentially going on was that while pay was moving some roles from abroad to the Netherlands actually to the U.K., and there are a couple of roles there. So when I when I came in this or this opportunity presented itself to go abroad and to start learning that role and bringing that to the UK.

00:09:13:10 - 00:09:27:12
nadia
So I really kind of stuck my neck out there, I think as a sort of first. I came in, it was my first job. I could see those change go on. Everybody would take advantage of that. So. So I put myself forward as someone who would be happy to travel abroad, stay abroad for a while, learn the

00:09:27:12 - 00:09:38:22
nadia
role and then help bring it back to the UK. So that was one of my first experiences of taking projects on a go or going sort of above above the usual spot or above the usual sort of responsibilities of a role so that, you know, that was what exciting time for me.

00:09:38:22 - 00:09:48:10
nadia
I got to travel to go for my first job. It was really, really exciting. And then I came back and trained the team in this new role. As kind of time progressed, I spent maybe a year doing that.

00:09:48:10 - 00:10:05:20
nadia
And then there was a second opportunity which was to take another one of those roles. But instead of coming back to Cambridge, which was originally based, so actually moving to London. So the opportunity for them was I could move to London and you know, I was I was originally living in Norwich, so you know, that was another

00:10:05:20 - 00:10:18:00
nadia
really exciting challenge for me, moving to the city and so quite young then. But it was something that was offered there and that was because of me putting sort of putting my neck out on the line originated to do that training.

00:10:18:00 - 00:10:28:04
nadia
So, you know, it's really important that when you see these opportunities, you take that chance and really try and put your hand up for it and get noticed because it does open the line, I think, for more opportunity.

00:10:28:14 - 00:10:39:00
nadia
So I mean, I moved to London and I'm still working in operations. Oh, that was that was sort of a maybe a horizontal change, but the road required more responsibility. So it was really exciting change for me, actually.

00:10:39:01 - 00:10:51:10
nadia
Then what happened was that the role became I moved from London up to Manchester, so there was an opportunity there for me to move to Manchester. And if I didn't want to do that, I had to take redundancy.

00:10:51:10 - 00:11:00:02
nadia
Yeah, that was a very tough decision for me. I was looking at the looking at Manchester. I remember looking with a couple of people on my team and we're talking about what that might mean for a long time.

00:11:00:02 - 00:11:10:09
nadia
As you know, is Manchester, someone maybe want to be permanently, you know, what will that mean in this new structure? And I think ultimately, I decided that that wasn't actually something that I wanted to do. I was happy in London.

00:11:10:16 - 00:11:25:20
nadia
You know, I was this way. I wanted my career to be. So I think important the opportunities come up and I think, you know, you need to grab them with both hands when you come. But it's important also that those decisions align with with what you see as your future and where you want your future to go

00:11:25:20 - 00:11:44:17
nadia
, so you shouldn't sacrifice authenticity about your time. I decided that at that point, not not not to move, but what I meant was that instead I started looking internally at well-paid for other roles, and that's when I was able to move into a delivery role since my first sort of experience working within a project setting.

00:11:44:18 - 00:11:55:02
nadia
So I worked as a junior business analyst, which is a really great role. I worked on a pipeline of changes, what I was doing, the analysis on managing sort of comms as in the requirements gathering with the clients.

00:11:55:02 - 00:12:04:22
nadia
I was managing the testing and release plan. So I really got there in the deep end with with that role. And I mean, that's what I kind of got my passion for working in projects and working in change.

00:12:04:22 - 00:12:18:16
nadia
Yeah, I mean, so that was a really strong start for me. Well, I learnt tons, my experience and then I joined. I fixed payments around around two and a half years ago. I joined as as a business analyst as well as a more senior business analyst by then.

00:12:18:17 - 00:12:32:09
nadia
And, you know, I joined the team in that role, and I remember just being so excited about this new role. You know, I could see that they needed business unless I could see that was also a gap for someone to kind of lead on the on a delivery function, on the product function.

00:12:32:10 - 00:12:42:03
nadia
So I was really, really hard. Gloria, thanks. And I remember kind of coming up to my probation meeting and I was thinking, you know, this is a place I really want to be. I want to stay here for a long time.

00:12:42:04 - 00:12:55:07
nadia
I'm working really hard. I know this so much more I can do. This is when I had a really open conversation with my boss. I said to him, I'm delivering for you as business analyst and I'm actually going way above that conversation.

00:12:55:20 - 00:13:07:14
nadia
You know, it was really interesting one and I think is really indicative of this sort of cultural artefacts, which is get stuck in, you know, if there's something to do, just don't take it on. You know, it's not someone else's responsibility, it's your own.

00:13:07:14 - 00:13:22:21
nadia
Make it your own. And that kind of that kind of attitude gets rewarded. So so after my probation period is going to pass, I did move into that had a product role. And then that was kind of what was was a was a big step up, I think, in my in my career, moving from a senior business

00:13:22:21 - 00:13:41:08
nadia
. Unless, you know, someone who kind of takes, takes direction and works the project, you intend end, but you'll pass to someone who's leading out and a part of that decision making process. And yeah, I've been I've been on effects of a sentence, and I think since joining effects is actually going through a huge transformation into some changes

00:13:41:08 - 00:13:54:11
nadia
that are going through. You know what? I'm really excited about being here. So I love the things that you've shared throughout your career, and I think it's really inspiring to listen to this because now if you are talking, you're giving people like loads of advice.

00:13:54:11 - 00:14:06:00
nadia
As well as my next question I wanted to say now that you were a leader, what advice would you give to others? But I know what you're going to say. You know, you spoke about, you can do attitude grabbing, grabbing every opportunity that's put your way.

00:14:06:00 - 00:14:22:13
nadia
But I think it's such an important question because I think a lot of people say, Oh, you know, take risks or go know, try that. But the way that you've explained every step like, you know, I've really felt like how you must have been feeling, you know, faced with redundancy, should I go up to Manchester?

00:14:22:13 - 00:14:34:01
nadia
No, I'm going to give this go standards and teach yourself. It's great that you've shared in that much detail because I think it really hits home the advice that you want to share. Is there anything you can to answer?

00:14:34:20 - 00:14:47:16
nadia
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think I think I think it's something that is most important. I think in terms of, you know, giving advice for I've been fighting for, you know, women or men, I think is, you know, having a plan is something very important.

00:14:47:16 - 00:15:03:01
nadia
Yeah, that sounds quite, maybe quite like a basic piece of advice. I think creating a plan for yourself that kind of spans decades really rather than sort of years. What are your really long term goals? Where do you see yourself in ten years?

00:15:03:02 - 00:15:17:09
nadia
I think the amazing thing about kind of having a think about that and about that process is supposed to allows us to sort of elevate you from the day to day and really kind of get creative. And what's my kind of motivations was my kind of vision for my future.

00:15:17:17 - 00:15:28:21
nadia
I think just as a, you know, maybe a thought exercise, I think that's a really helpful thing to do what you can kind of come up there is some things that might feel well, that should feel really totally unattainable.

00:15:28:21 - 00:15:38:18
nadia
If you're really stretching yourself, you should have come up some things that probably seem impossible to get through today. But the great thing about having plan that kind of spans that length is that you don't need to have all the answers right now.

00:15:38:18 - 00:15:56:05
nadia
But having an idea having as a kind of steering point for yourself will help you day to day. It will help you with those more decisions, like deciding whether you should take a role, change or relocate. So I think starting with that, that really long term harm where is I want to be, I think is number one

00:15:56:05 - 00:16:10:04
nadia
. And you know, what you can do then is stop breaking that down into, you know, it's more changeable goals. So, you know, long time you realise you want to, you know, achieve something that is pretty amazing. Let's say, for example, it's run a marathon, you will just do that in ten years.

00:16:10:11 - 00:16:22:16
nadia
So what does a training programme look like for you? one, 25. What does that mean in terms of, you know, the way that you kind of resource that ambition change your diet? Do you need to start looking at, you know, the people who you kind of are in your circle?

00:16:22:19 - 00:16:33:10
nadia
Have you got someone who can you can look to to kind of motivate you on that or someone you can kind of give you advice on who's done that before and give you advice? I think, you know, how do you plan a really long term plan?

00:16:33:10 - 00:16:51:03
nadia
It's something that I would definitely advise anyone, really. He's kind of looking to get ahead and kind of progress themselves. And you should have a work and you have that person as well. I think maybe another thing just particular, particularly for women, is, you know, something something that I think is very important is to be resilient.

00:16:51:05 - 00:17:07:16
nadia
You know, I think it can be difficult. It can be difficult balancing all the different sort of complexities of being women at work. I think I had some really great advice actually from Michaela Coel. She was on, she was on a podcast as well, and she was talking about so that she could take the notes.

00:17:08:02 - 00:17:22:14
nadia
So, yeah, this is about when you kind of get feedback that might be critical or it might be something that doesn't really resonate with you. So you know, you've you've heard it. You think that's not true. That's not me, though at the time, when you're getting the feedback, just listen to it, absorb it and then take it

00:17:22:14 - 00:17:30:16
nadia
away and decide what to do with it later, you know, and whether that's something that you then decide, you know, you can ignore, are you going to rip it off? You're going to forget about it or whether you know it?

00:17:30:16 - 00:17:42:02
nadia
Once you've come away from that interaction, you've decided that it's not something I can take on board. Or, you know, that's just because it's someone's perception or whether because you actually recognise it as something that you should adjust.

00:17:42:18 - 00:17:58:12
nadia
I think that the process is really important, and it's definitely a way to kind of build resilience when it can feel like being a woman or, you know, being someone who's a minority. When feedback can sometimes feel like an X, I think feedback can sometimes be it can be a tool, but it can also sometimes be a

00:17:58:12 - 00:18:12:14
nadia
weapon. So well, you know, when that feedback comes in and it feels like something that you'd have to kind of undermine your authenticity if you wanted to follow that feedback, you know, go through a process of sort of reconciliation of a step away from that initial interaction is very important.

00:18:12:15 - 00:18:24:09
nadia
But you know, and that's the way that you can kind of maintain resilience and make sure that you are able to kind of get through the day, get through that interaction, even if you're being told something that you know, which might even life upsetting or hurtful or difficult.

00:18:24:16 - 00:18:36:16
nadia
So I think being resilient is really important. You know, as you said, Nadia, I think authenticity is definitely there. You know what? What is it that you're good at and what is unique about yourself? And how can you really pushed around to the world?

00:18:36:16 - 00:18:49:20
nadia
And you know, I know, I know girls have problems with kind of things like imposter syndrome and do I deserve to be happy, you know, you do your day or doing the job so. What is it about you that makes you amazing and how can you amplify that and keep doing more?

00:18:49:20 - 00:19:07:13
nadia
And I kind of, you know, share that with other people. Yeah. I mean, there's so much in here that just resonates with me so powerfully, and I think there's a lot, lot of examples that you're giving that will help people listening to this to to assert themselves to to take feedback.

00:19:07:14 - 00:19:19:18
nadia
Well, because you know, even me, I'm sitting here thinking, you know, I can improve on how I take feedback, but also allocating whether it's being used as a weapon or whether it's genuinely to make me better or make that situation better.

00:19:20:01 - 00:19:37:03
nadia
And it's having the confidence to be able to to believe in yourself and be authentic to yourself, to be able to compartmentalise which one is which. I think that's really, really helpful feedback in terms of your thoughts around diversity, equity and inclusion within the workplace.

00:19:37:04 - 00:19:50:20
nadia
I know that you this is prominent. I know it's really important to you. Can you tell us a bit more about your work in driving inclusion? Yeah, yeah, sure. So yeah, I mentioned earlier, the effects spoke through a lot of what we're scaling a lot mind.

00:19:50:22 - 00:20:02:21
nadia
So I'm hiring in my team and some I've sort of had hiring power, so I was really conscious at the time. The hiring powers is one of the things. It's one of those sort of events. You have to really make a change.

00:20:03:17 - 00:20:17:19
nadia
Something that kind of really struck me was in putting out those roles was the was a disparity in application. So you know, what I saw was that there weren't many women at all applying to these roles. So I think that's really interesting.

00:20:17:19 - 00:20:30:02
nadia
I think that there's a lot of work that created in me when I when I noticed that difference. So with diversity in particular in fintech, you know, we know that there's a sort of lack of of women in those roles.

00:20:30:02 - 00:20:44:14
nadia
And I think, you know, you can look at that across a few different aspects. Number one, that the workforce, you know, what is the workforce makeup look like? Number two, what is the leadership team sort of look like that, you know, it's not a diverse do you have a diverse board, you have a diverse management team and

00:20:44:14 - 00:20:56:21
nadia
then also number three, like which I think is really instrumental, particularly in fintech, because, you know, I spoke with fintech teachers back in the summer and they ask me sort of what I thought was a really exciting driving innovation or, you know, sort of key innovation.

00:20:56:21 - 00:21:15:24
nadia
And for the time. And what I said for fintechs in the industry is that is how many fintechs there are known and how many new fintechs are coming. So what will that kind of means is the environment is becoming less sort of siloed entities that sort of own the experience and, you know, the digital banks.

00:21:16:09 - 00:21:33:03
nadia
And now it's sort of becoming a mixed environment of lots of different fintechs sub individual purposes and customers want to be able to pick and choose from those fintechs and try and use them all, actually. So so what that kind of means for fintech when you've got workforces, mainly maybe you've got maybe a leadership team, that's many

00:21:33:04 - 00:21:47:01
nadia
men. What that means in fintech in particular, is that then also the customer becomes mainly men as well. So. So the sort of complicated environment really where you know, you want that we want to move away from those sort of big entities like banks.

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:00:06
nadia
But those banks, you know, have got good policies. They've got really good procedures that are in place for a really long time. You know, in the market diversity, inclusion, it's always been talked about a lot. So, you know, the fact that these banks are going to get on well at all unless they've got good procedures there.

00:22:00:21 - 00:22:14:22
nadia
But then with fintechs and start ups, you know, you've got these kind of cultures that's trying to get stuff done. So that's one accidentally sort of biased and kind of slip in. And, you know, in that effort to move quickly, you can accidentally not do things in a way that are not biased.

00:22:14:22 - 00:22:25:19
nadia
So, you know, I think that's that's something that is a real risk, I think, for start ups and scale ups. So when I kind of went into this, this hiring process, you know, I noticed that not all women one when applying for the role.

00:22:25:19 - 00:22:45:14
nadia
And, you know, I think as a as a hiring manager, my belief is that equal opportunities is what's most important. And, you know, I don't really, you know, hiring for those roles is difficult enough. I wouldn't say it's right at that stage to put policy in place that says to hire from a certain gender or age or

00:22:45:15 - 00:22:57:24
nadia
, you know, ethnicity. So what that means to me, you know, that be my belief. What that means to me is we to create roles, and we've created a company that is really attractive to to a diverse set of applications.

00:22:58:02 - 00:23:07:04
nadia
You know, I think there's lots of things that I can control as a, you know, as the head of products, and there's things that I can't control. And yeah, things are within my control are like, what does application look like?

00:23:07:05 - 00:23:22:16
nadia
What's kind of language I'm using there? How can I make sure that that's really appealing to a woman? So, you know, I've made it quite a few changes to maternity policy. So, you know, we've upgraded that. We've also looking closely at return to work ultimately.

00:23:22:23 - 00:23:39:11
nadia
You know what programmes we can place? How can we make that a really easy transition for women? I think also the point on remote working is quite interesting. You know, I remember this current talking something with friends actually the beginning when we were talking about going to remote working and working parents, I was like, This is fantastic

00:23:39:17 - 00:23:51:18
nadia
. You know, women, you know, who are typically seen as the caregivers of fierce caregivers, they can be in the home. It kind of creates a blended place where they can spend more time with family. You know, I think as a time, you know, it's hard to move on now.

00:23:51:23 - 00:24:02:21
nadia
Remote working could then become. Can make women less less visible because you know that they will probably they might choose to do that, and that means they're not going to be as present in the office and not going to have as much face time with the manager.

00:24:03:09 - 00:24:16:12
nadia
You know, what does that mean when kind of promotions are coming out? What does that mean for gender relationships? So, you know, it really is a balancing act with these kind of things, but what you want to do is kind of create what I really want to do is make sure that these roles of appeal and are

00:24:16:12 - 00:24:29:08
nadia
attractive to to women. So you got to think carefully about what are the motivating factors, what are what are what are those groups people find very important? And how can I show that in the posting? And how can we actually deliver as well as artefacts?

00:24:29:09 - 00:24:42:18
nadia
How can we make sure that that's really ingrained in the way that we that we work together in the way that we do business? So that was my kind. Quite that was quite a hit me. I was I was surprised, as you know, as a woman who's done those roles, I surprised at how few women I saw

00:24:42:23 - 00:25:00:20
nadia
applying for that role, something that's really important to me as a sort of product leader. In fact, it is reported to me that we have teams of people who are cognitively diverse. I think that's what it's going to really create strong innovation and create good products and make sure that something that is, you know, market leading and

00:25:00:20 - 00:25:21:17
nadia
is really, you know, useful for our clients and ensuring that we've got teams, people who think differently about problems and about, you know, approach to projects, approach to product development. If we if we got people in the team who come from all sorts of different backgrounds and cultures and experiences, you know, different ages as well and different

00:25:21:20 - 00:25:36:05
nadia
just as much different as you can get because I think once you've got a team that's got, you know, true diversity like that, you're going to have a really great spectrum of sort of intellectual diversity to you have to work together and that's what's going to create really amazing product.

00:25:36:06 - 00:25:49:08
nadia
So that's why it's so important to me. And I love the way that you've explained all of that because again, you've really, really hit home to talk about why fintech is so unique and why fintech really needs inclusion in.

00:25:49:08 - 00:26:03:09
nadia
A lot of people are trying to make the connexion between the success of a business and inclusion, but without without a lot to back that up. And therefore, when people are talking about inclusion and talk about social justice, first business case second.

00:26:03:09 - 00:26:17:18
nadia
But I think and I agree with you totally that within. Yeah, it's a completely unique proposition because we are talking so directly to the customer base and the way you said it just then like, are all your customers are men of a certain demographic?

00:26:18:06 - 00:26:28:23
nadia
Is that is that you want to sell to? Or is it much wider than that? And I think the way that that's been explained has really given me even more passion to be doing what I do day in, day out.

00:26:28:24 - 00:26:48:03
nadia
So I'm really enjoying listening to you, and I cannot agree with you more about this dichotomy of working from home is great if you're a caregiver, but at the same time, having the choice to work from home, and that's less visible that that could and I think probably already has started affecting the gender pay gap in a

00:26:48:03 - 00:27:02:19
nadia
negative. Yeah. one of the main reasons the gender pay gap is that the less visibility of women in the in the pubs in the evening, for example, when they post about which project they manage, a lot of the women are at home with the kids at that point.

00:27:02:21 - 00:27:17:14
nadia
Massive generalisation, I know. But if we then take that further, when there's the option to work from home, I know that I personally am less visible to my boss right now because I do take the option to to be purely hybrid.

00:27:17:14 - 00:27:34:05
nadia
So I'm 5050 in the office that really got me thinking there as well. And I think the audience will will be thinking about their choices too. But just taking that further, I know you've got some thoughts on gender linguistics and behavioural nuances in the workplace and what we need to do to overcome them.

00:27:34:07 - 00:27:46:21
nadia
So tell us more. Yeah, yeah, I love that topic is a really interesting one. And yeah, there's quite a lot of discussion. I mean, I'm having this conversation quite a lot, actually. It's a tricky one. I think, you know, we look different.

00:27:46:22 - 00:28:06:07
nadia
We, you know, men and women look different, we speak differently and we behave differently as well. I think on the kind of speaking and the way that we behave, you know what, in terms of waiting, you know, how much is that nature and how much nurture do women, you know, women described as speaking more communally, so speaking

00:28:06:07 - 00:28:22:01
nadia
in ways that are warm and helpful? You know, that's the kind of language that we're described as described as I'm the kind of language that we use as well. So, you know, in kind of the other side of that, men are more, you know, the language, the kind of used to describe them as more based on sort

00:28:22:01 - 00:28:39:24
nadia
of individuals that's more competent and was like assertive, you know, and you know how much that kind of comes from the individual and how much kind of comes from the environment. So, yeah, I'm I warm and helpful because when I'm assertive and confident and I get treated and maybe a different way, I think I see something that

00:28:39:24 - 00:28:53:09
nadia
is, you know, I'm really I'm superintendent bias, actually. You know, I talk about kind of cognitive diversity. That's one of my sort of driving points of products. But I think, you know, another bit about that is when we're building products, something that we really want to be every time and it's a good process is to be data

00:28:53:14 - 00:29:05:06
nadia
. Let's make sure that we are looking at kind of, you know, constant quality data, but, you know, we're really going to kind of picture of what the truth is and we're building things that Alcon wants and not when we think we want.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:20:16
nadia
So ensuring that as part of the process of product development, I think it's something you also need to do in terms of human interactions. You know, I want to make sure that when I'm speaking with someone, I'm not making assumptions on who they are based on something that I'm getting from the way they look or even the

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:36:09
nadia
way they speak. And I think people, people revert that kind of thing when things are moving quickly or when, you know, when you're Typekit, I think reverse its bias and you can do when you get lazy. I think actually, so it's a hack, basically your brain, you've learnt something before, whether it's whether it's true or false.

00:29:36:17 - 00:29:45:13
nadia
And I apply not to this current situation. So you would want really hard. I think make sure the bias is a creep and you know, that should feel like it should be a struggle and it is a struggle.

00:29:45:13 - 00:29:56:14
nadia
I think that's why also, it's really important to have some procedures and policy in place at a company level because it's not possible to do that all the time. You know, that kind of cognitive load can get kind of draining.

00:29:56:14 - 00:30:10:09
nadia
I had one interesting thing about that sort of decision making during the day and how we've got kind of enough currency, the bank to make a certain amount decisions through the day. So, you know, beginning the day, you know, something that I really hate is going on just the morning I saw that I find really difficult.

00:30:10:17 - 00:30:23:05
nadia
So I'm kind of using arcs and my decision making comments in the morning, you know, having uniforms was something that Steve Jobs did. So the same way, you know, kind of resisting bias and making sure that every interaction you go into, you're not making assumptions about the person.

00:30:23:16 - 00:30:39:15
nadia
You know, it's something it's tiring. So you have to rely on, you know, sort of strong policy procedures in a company, something that kind of helps take away the, you know, accidental sort of resorting to to bias something that I think is really very important to have and talk about like, you know, if your company doesn't have

00:30:39:15 - 00:30:53:13
nadia
a need to make sure they do. I think I think also something that I find really interesting about gender linguistics, I think is a trending like kind of aspect of it. So, for example, bossy. Now that was something when I when I was younger, I was definitely called.

00:30:53:21 - 00:31:06:23
nadia
But then as I got older, you know, but you can't say there was absolutely not okay to say. And then later, I mean, a female boss, we had quite a lot, you know, female boss was a way to kind of empower women, can uplift them and be like, we're bosses to female boss that then now it's like

00:31:06:23 - 00:31:22:03
nadia
, OK, well, female boss is different from just a boss, so mine is boss, whereas a woman described as a female boss. Well, that means it's kind of the word boss. You know, it's clarify between both. And you don't for a so it's sort of interesting the way language evolves in that area.

00:31:22:05 - 00:31:32:19
nadia
I think something that I'm kind of really conscious is, you know, I, you know, I've experienced the right being called terms that felt gendered. I mean, the things that I obviously don't want to be called or I don't like hard work.

00:31:32:20 - 00:31:43:19
nadia
And then there's other areas where, you know, I can feel, you know, would you have said that to her? Would you catch a man? Would you would you would you have kind of cool that particular trait in me if I had been a man?

00:31:43:19 - 00:31:57:03
nadia
Or, you know, would you be sort of praising this, this aspect to my personality if if, you know, if I was, you know, some kind of get into that grey area, but I think, you know, it takes kind of, you know, to build a strong product as it takes, you know, all sorts of people.

00:31:57:03 - 00:32:10:12
nadia
And I think you could really, you know, kind of comes back to that authenticity piece about, you know, what is strong about myself and how can I really put that out into the world and you'll get these kind of terms, you know, use maybe for you and you going to kind of carry on and keep going down

00:32:10:12 - 00:32:23:16
nadia
your path and keep pushing for, keep pushing yourself off and being being resilient to it. I think that whole subjects, you know, super to say it's a really interesting subject. Thank you for the question again. I actually love what you're saying and it's really, really relevant to me right now.

00:32:23:16 - 00:32:40:22
nadia
So I've got two very young children, a young girl and a young boy, and already she's getting called bossy at nursery. Really? I'm telling. I'm telling them all from saying, that's not like, that's what I mean. Well, yeah, I mean, that's another entry point as well, like the kind of aspect about bossy.

00:32:40:23 - 00:32:54:20
nadia
I remember when the conversation was going around about and I thought, I quite like being described as bossy, like, you know, I'm your boss, my boss bossy. Like, You're like a boss, you know, I'll go with it. But the problem is when it gets, it gets misused, though, you know, maybe something that you know.

00:32:54:20 - 00:33:08:15
nadia
I would also sort of say in my boss remarks when they tell you that, yeah, you're in charge. If you're safe, I feel like they need to use words for breeding and not just indicates that, yeah, your daughters say absolutely amazing and you know they're going to want to, you know, take him out.

00:33:08:15 - 00:33:17:24
nadia
Maybe as a challenge. No, that's wrong on them. But you know, she's behaving like a boss. That's brilliant. And I love what you're saying about, you know, why is it that we associate the word boss on its own?

00:33:18:02 - 00:33:37:05
nadia
You know, we've given it. We've gendered power. Yeah, not clear. Yeah, agenda, which is yeah. Yeah, that's so much part of, you know, words, particularly now are so important because they can, you know, with everything sort of documented on tweets on your line, you know, on podcast as well, you know, things, things can kind of get misused

00:33:37:06 - 00:33:48:16
nadia
. But the point is that people can take up all aspects of their personality and people should really sort of dwell on sort of relish the different aspects of their personalities, you know, you know, I've got a side to me, which is very negative, you know, that could be described as bossy.

00:33:48:23 - 00:34:05:06
nadia
I got a side of me which can be quite quick. You know, some someone might say that's. Snappy. You know, there's different ways in kind of describe things, and I think you're going to make sure that when you're speaking about women in particular, I think you're using positive language to uplift them and not using the tongue buttoned

00:34:05:06 - 00:34:14:02
nadia
down. And I think something that as women, we should be conscious of as well. You know, this female female boss situation, you know, we meant that to, you know, as a kind of branding and trending things kind of get people.

00:34:14:04 - 00:34:23:20
nadia
So, you know, I want to be a female boss, but you know, we just want women to be managers. We want women to be CEOs. You want to be, you know, heads all we want to see VP's female bosses might be to about that.

00:34:23:21 - 00:34:39:17
nadia
You know, I think if you know that excites people, it gets even for that, definitely. But this new industry, right? Absolutely. So as my final question, what would be your call to action with regards to what more we should all be doing to really have authentic, genuine workplace inclusion?

00:34:39:18 - 00:34:56:23
nadia
Yeah, I really think that's what I'm saying early about when I kind of came to that hiring ploy, and it was a real shock to me, the transparency and applying this women and who I think the industry really stood, which I think is what you're doing today was so amazing is showing how fintech is really exciting and

00:34:56:23 - 00:35:12:20
nadia
interesting place for women to work. Women are really great about awful stereotypes, but you know, we all good human relationships. We are good at managing lots of different, lots different projects and we all good. I think working in teams and working with people and fintech is all about that.

00:35:12:20 - 00:35:24:01
nadia
You know, there's the technology aspect, which is exciting and interesting and, you know, good for your brain. And on the project side of things, which is, you know, getting things done and moving quickly and working in different sort of project dynamics.

00:35:24:02 - 00:35:36:03
nadia
So it absolutely is an amazing place for women in particular to be working. So, yeah, I think my call to action really be to the industry to make make fintech attractive and show how amazing it is to talk to women so that so that they start joining the workforce.

00:35:36:10 - 00:35:52:05
nadia
It's not getting promotions, leadership roles and they've become the customer. Yeah. And I just think that it's just super, super exciting to talk through this and constantly relate it back to products, customers business success. And it just couldn't be clearer.

00:35:52:05 - 00:36:02:20
nadia
Fintech needs inclusion, right? And you've explained exactly how. So, Rosie, it's been brilliant talking to you on the Women of Fintech podcast series. Thank you for joining me. Thanks so much. Thank you.