Turning Plans into Places: A CEI Podcast

Ep. 5 - Visibility, Access, Zoning: The Site Trio

• CEI Engineering Associates

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Want to know why a “perfect” parcel can still be a bad site? We dig into the real-world checklist that makes fueling and convenience projects work: traffic that actually converts, access that moves cars and trucks safely, zoning that survives politics, utilities that show up on time, and visibility that pulls travelers off the highway. With national fueling expert Alex Fuller and sector leader Jim Tredwell, we share the tools, tactics, and cautionary tales that separate winners from write-offs.

We start where the math matters most: traffic. You’ll hear how to use DOT maps, direction-specific flows, and truck percentages, when to verify with manual counts or drones, and how to mine city traffic studies for LOS and queuing insights. From there we unpack parcel reality—size, shape, frontage, and “usable vs. paper” acres—plus the design implications of setbacks, easements, replats, and topography. Zoning gets a frank treatment: by-right labels, overlay districts, design reviews, neighborhood outreach, and how city staff, mayors, and EDC leaders can either accelerate or stall your timeline.

Access and circulation take center stage as we map driveway spacing, right-in/right-out constraints, TIAs, and the choreography of trucks, autos, deliveries, and pedestrians. We talk signage and visibility strategy, including FAA limits on high-rise price boards near flight paths. Then we tackle utilities—will-serve letters, capacity checks, power lead times, offsite extensions, and stormwater—plus environmental musts: Phase I/II, wetlands mitigation timelines, and flood map adjustments that can lower insurance and calm lenders. Throughout, we return to a core habit: spend windshield time. Watch how great sites actually work, and let those observations shape your next layout.

If you’re planning a c-store, travel center, or truck stop, this conversation gives you a field-tested blueprint to cut risk and speed approvals. Enjoy the episode, share it with your team, and if it helped you think differently about site selection, subscribe and leave a quick review—what part changed your checklist?

SPEAKER_00:

Hi, and welcome to our podcast Plans to Places, where we explore the critical dynamic shaping the built environment, specifically focused on fueling and convenience store development. I'm your host, Debbie Jones. I'm the Director of Business Development and Marketing for CEI Engineering and Associates. And today we have an exciting discussion lined up for you that centers on the cornerstone of successful development, site selection. So we'll delve into the processes involved in site selection criteria, including everything from traffic counts to zoning to visibility, utilities, and we might even touch on some environmental issues. But whether you're a seasoned professional in our field or simply curious about what goes into selecting the right site for your development, I don't think you'll want to miss this conversation. To help us navigate this topic, I'm thrilled to introduce our guests today. First, we have Alex Fuller, a national expert in fueling development. Thanks, Debbie.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Debbie. It's good to see you again. So I started my real estate career in 2014 with Love's Travel Stops. And before then, I didn't know anything about real estate development. Couldn't tell you how many square feet were in an acre, what a wetland was, anything like that. So worked with them for about seven and a half years and learned from some really great, incredible people. Learned a ton, soaked up a lot, and then after my time there, I started my own consulting company. And now I do work for RV parks, fast food, QSR restaurants, industrial developers, and still some other travel center and truck stop companies.

SPEAKER_00:

That's amazing. And across the country, or do you specialize in a specific region?

SPEAKER_02:

Typically, it's about eight to ten different states.

unknown:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

What a great perspective. Well, welcome, Alex. I'm excited to talk to you today. Um, our other our other guest is Jim Treadwell. He's our client sector leader for fueling and convenience stores. So, Jim, welcome.

SPEAKER_01:

It's great to be here, Debbie, and especially to uh have Alex present. Uh, it'll be a very good discussion.

SPEAKER_00:

I think so. You want to tell our audience just a little bit about your background? Sure.

SPEAKER_01:

Um I have a very diverse background uh in commercial development. I've been involved with strategic planning and implementation, budgeting, real estate operations, site investigation, due diligence, entitlements, project management, quality control, and construction administration. Uh I've seen the good, bad, and the ugly throughout the uh period of time, the do's and don'ts. And um I've done a wide variety of projects uh from straight retail, big box, mid-cap, end cap projects all the way to uh high-rise uh construction. So uh we both uh have the uh the war scars, uh probably Alex and myself that knows what we have to do going forward. But it's a pleasure to be here.

SPEAKER_00:

To get the right side, yes. Well, welcome. Um I'm excited. Um one thing that was interesting, Alex, whenever we sat down and we were talking about, you know, looking at site criteria for fueling and convenience, um you sent us over some information about how you prioritize your search. I'm sure that you look at thousands of parcels. Um, and so I was like, what are the things that you look at first? And I was really surprised um by the order of the priority that you had on your checklist, specifically that you started with a traffic impact conversation. So I that would be different. You know, we think about land and land characteristics and how perfect it is. Um and so, but I I was really interested to hear your perspective about why to start there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so every business has their own criteria when it comes to site selection and what they're looking for, but for retail and sea store truck stop industries, traffic, traffic, traffic, that is the main thing you're trying to find, and of course build a store in front of. So I always jokingly say someone could have the best property in America. It could be ideal for access, visibility, utilities, all of that. But if there's only 2,000 cars and vehicles going by you know a day, there's not gonna be many businesses that are excited to go out there and spend a lot of money and build there.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that would make perfect sense. So knowing that there's lots of resources out there to determine traffic counts, I've seen so many different programs that are popping up to help people narrow it down. What are some of the tools that you have found or that are your favorites?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and that's the great thing. Nowadays, and just in the 12 years I've been doing real estate development consulting, I feel like there's more and more resources and tools out there, and a majority of them are free to the public. So when it relates to traffic counts, almost every Department of Transportation for every state, they have a traffic map, and it's an annual average daily traffic map that's normally interactive or it's a PDF, and you can go on there and you can find different corridors and you can see the amount of traffic that's going by or along certain properties every single day.

SPEAKER_01:

And Alex, I just want to interject also on that that uh when you work with the DOT, they have also restrictions in terms of where your access points would be into your project, which have are a determination of those traffic counts. And uh so I do you probably run across that when you were working at on your LOVES projects.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, definitely. Those and other projects, and then really once you're in that DOT traffic map, there's other details where it'll show you the traffic for a specific direction. Like you're talking about, Jim, a percentage breakdown of truck or semi-truck traffic, and then um also you can just get out there and do manual counts yourself to really identify what that traffic is. Because there's been not a whole lot, but from time to time where there is a pretty significant gap on what some public website's showing for traffic, and then if you're out there, what the actual traffic is when you're seeing it and then collecting your data.

SPEAKER_00:

And CEI, we one of the things that we've done that has been kind of interesting, we've done for a couple clients, is we've actually used our survey drones to help. Whenever you're trying to get account on the ground or during a certain period, or we'll we'll use our drones to fly over a site during a particular time of heavy traffic, so we can get a better visual on how traffic is moving so that we can pre-identify some of those issues.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, that's that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00:

That is that is great information. So it sounds like the DOT would be um have a an awesome base of information, obviously. But are there any other sites that you like that would kind of do some of the overlays for traffic or availability? Are there any other of those kind of tools for traffic that you um use or is DOT your primary, your favorite?

SPEAKER_02:

I think that's the initial kind of foundation of traffic that you can find and publicly access. Then like I said, getting out there and gathering that data yourself, or having some traffic engineer that's gonna gather that data, and then I think another good resource, and you know, it's kind of case by case if it's available, but if there was a recent traffic study done, if the city ordered one for some roadway improvement project, and it's at an intersection or pretty close to where your site is, your potential site is, then you can normally request that from the city, delve into that, and pull some good information about what that traffic study was showing as far as traffic movements and level of service for certain movements and just what that overall traffic count and numbers looked like.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Alex, I just want to also add that I've found in the past that the queuing lanes that go into the facility, if you have a car wash component or a drive-thru of some sort, the requirements for how many cars you have to have in that queuing lane could sometimes become problematic based upon DOT's analysis of the traffic patterns. So that's something that could directly affect the budget on a project.

SPEAKER_02:

No, most definitely.

SPEAKER_00:

Great point. I love the um I love the idea, the tip about um asking the city to see if there is a traffic study that's near. Um that's a nice, just kind of a shortcut if you're just looking to have resources to really review and and consider as you're moving through. Um so the second thing that you had mentioned beside traffic impact were parcel characteristics. And that's kind of where what we were talking about, where I said I thought that that might be where we would start. Um, but what are some of those key parcel attributes specifically for fueling and convenience stores on those sites that you might be looking for?

SPEAKER_01:

Jim, do you want to start with this one? Okay. I was hoping you would, but that's okay, Alex. I'll I'll give it a shot. Uh parcel character uh or attributes, as we say. Uh there's probably, and you correct me on this, Alex, but um whether it's a travel spot, whether it's a uh sea store or a combination or diesel trucks, whatever we're working with, would determine the gross square footage of the site. Uh travel centers could be upwards of 18 to 23,000 square feet. Uh you've got other, excuse me, I'm sorry, 23 acres, 18 to 23 acres, for example, versus a smaller uh convenience store, which could be maybe uh 30% of that total. So a lot of that's driven by the operations. The other uh component which could impact the site characteristics is if it's part of a subdivision where you've got a master developer and there are already up a replot that was done that shows what the available uh square footage would be. If it's an end parcel uh project where you want to put something in, you're restricted by the uh the replat that the developer put together. So that could impact the actual geometry. The other uh issue there is on your title report. If you have encumbrances that can impact the design, uh could be setback requirements, there could be uh right-of-way issues, uh landscape issues, all those factors could impact the uh parcel characteristic. So um hopefully that's enough. If you want to add any more on to that, Alex, feel free.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I don't want to dumb it down too much, but if you're looking at a site initially, I mean the couple things that we're focused on, just as uh real estate project manager or a site selector, it's of course the size, how many acres, square feet it it is, the shape of it, what are the dimensions, is it kind of perfect square or more rectangle, triangle, and then what's the frontage there? What's the street frontage that you have? And then if you can figure those out before you even have survey done, you know, setbacks, and then maybe generally you can have an idea of what the topography is to know what's usable, then you can at least get started with this is a viable, realistic layout for this parcel.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a good point, and also that dovetails back to the traffic that we just spoke about. Uh demographics, traffic flow, if it's on a main thoroughfare or state road, the direction of the traffic, site visibility is crucial, your signage, where your signs are going, if it's a monument sign, if it's a building mounted sign, that's I would think is a very important component as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it definitely is, and it's interesting because I can't tell you how many times different states, different corridors thinking, or someone presenting this is a 10-acre parcel, and this is what I own, and you see the dimensions, it looks pretty good. You go out there and realize, well, it is a good location, and it's a good site, but the back two acres of that parcel, it's a huge topography change drop-off. So instead of it being 10 acres, it's really about eight acres or seven acres that's usable and you can actually develop.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right. And I know we'll probably talk a little later, Debbie, about wetlands delineation. But if your site has uh wetland areas, that will definitely cut down on your actual building area.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So something I've learned over the years where if someone's saying it's a certain acre parcel, it might be. It could be true to that. But then, as we'll discuss, there's so many other factors that can just make a certain parcel shrink down to what's actually being able to be used and built on.

SPEAKER_00:

There that's a very, very good point. It's an important question. I bet it it's one that um you have learned through experience with a var a variety of people. Okay, well, let's move. You did mention, Jim, um alluding to zoning and annexation. So um how does zoning play a role in the development process? And what are some of the common hurdles for developers um facing whenever they're looking at rezoning?

SPEAKER_01:

This will be a good lead-in for Alex. So, Alex, I'm gonna get it ready for you to give the ultimate answer. But uh zoning is uh obviously a very important component, and it's one that's tossed around a lot. You may have by right the ability to build at a certain location according to this uh the zoning codes. It says like general commercial uh or C1, C2, there's different designations. So by right, it looks like a perfectly good site. But what may have happened is there could have been an overlay district that was done in that area where the planning department's in the process of upgrading that zoning. And it could be what I've had a um aesthetic overlay district where yes, you can put up your facility, but by the way, it has to go through a public hearing process to approve the type of materials you're using, the color scheme, and it can become a real onerous uh process trying to get through that area. And I know that on some of the projects that I've worked on, we had to have outside neighborhood outreach meetings with uh poster boards and color samples and to reassure people that what we're putting up is going to be compatible with uh what the objectives are of the uh planning commission. So, Alex, I'm sure with LUBs and other projects you've probably encountered sometimes some headwinds uh similar to that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, especially when it comes to fuel retail and truck stops and travel centers. You mentioned the poster boards. I've seen the poster boards on the other side in crowds that are not that nice and friendly because they're they're not supporting the project and they're against it. So I really think it's zoning as one of the initial phases and components when it comes to pre-development. Because I feel like that's one of the first things you're looking at. And if you don't have it in place or you don't think you can get that parcel rezoned for that specific use, well, you're dead in the water, and there's really no reason to carry on and spend money. So it's times where you really got to figure out what the situation is. And Jim and I have talked about this offline before. You need to, in my opinion, have some informal meetings with city officials and other key players just to understand what is going on, what's the thought and philosophy about this property being rezoned, and if you think it can happen. And sometimes it can be a slam dunk home run, an easy, fun meeting to be at. Other times it can be really, really challenging, or it might not even happen, and you have to back out or terminate the project.

SPEAKER_01:

That that's that's really an important issue. Um I just want to interject because you brought up a very important point there. Um and I've had fractured situations where uh the staff level agrees with what we're trying to do, uh, but what's happening is they're getting pressure from a city council member or from a public interest group that doesn't want a travel center next to uh their housing project. And it could be because of sound issues they're concerned with or congestion issues, things of that nature. And we've really had to um uh uh advocate what the positive parts uh points are of our project. And that's something like here what CEI, we work with um sometimes land use attorneys, or we'll actually make a presentation at a city council meeting and show that what we've put together is actually uh uh will make the area much better in that regard.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, and it's interesting, just to piggyback off that, sometimes you know going into it, or it's pretty obvious that it could be a big challenge to get it rezoned or that zoning aspect figured out because there is a neighborhood there, or other things are in play. Other times it could be wide open, it seems really straightforward, but then you find out for whatever reason the city doesn't want change or there's politics involved and they don't want that use, truck stop travel center there, and it's just not gonna happen when it looks like it should and it shouldn't be an issue. So it's just interesting all the different dynamics that can come into play regarding zoning.

SPEAKER_00:

It does. The um one of the thing that things that as you guys are kind of talking through with the community, you've really touched on it, which is some strategies that developers might be able to employ um to help at least anticipate what they're going to be expecting from zoning. So who are some of the who would you suggest people talk to to get a better understanding of the flavor of that community and where they may be sitting for what the community wants or needs? Um what do you where would you tell somebody that the best resources for uh some of that background information would come from?

SPEAKER_01:

Alex, you want to answer that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'll start and it's case by case basis, just depending on the city and the community, but I would generally say it could be the city manager, sometime if if it's a smaller community, the mayor's really involved, planning commission people you can have conversations with. But normally, at least at that city staff level, and having some informal meetings with them, you can get a pretty good understanding and idea what they think about the parcel. And they might be the ones to tell you that we'd like to see this rezoned, but it's happened two or three times, and the planning commission or city council has always voted it down for XYZ reasons, then at least you have that background information.

SPEAKER_01:

That's a that's a good point. And uh Debbie, I just want to add to what Alex said that a lot of times what we do is we do our homework up front, we go on to social media, we research the city, we find out what the history is, and it's amazing what you can find out. Uh, one uh area I was working in, I found out of the 12 commissioners on the Planning Commission, three were renegades, the rest wanted a certain approach, and you find out a lot about what they're doing. And so once you identify that, uh you can then structure your uh approach, your project plan around that. And um it makes a lot easier. So I agree with what you're saying and wanted to add that part.

SPEAKER_00:

I've also found a surprising advocate sometimes can be a surprising advocate in the economic development um person, even in this small town. So um chambers, sometimes an option, but really that economic development person, they understand how it comes together, they understand projects to power their city. They usually have a wish list of what kind of projects or properties they would like to come in. Maybe they've already identified some deficiencies in amenities and services available to their own citizens. And so I think that's another good one to kind of keep in mind. That economic development person has got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01:

So that's a very that's a very good suggestion there because I know we we just finished a project. Uh it was an auto-related facility, and uh we were having issues trying to get the building permit uh uh done. So I we went right to the city manager and lobbied our case with him, and he was able to pull strings and make sure that uh his department people acted on our request.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we that would you're right. Those economic development directors, I always say they are doing God's work because most of them, it's if it's a smaller community, they are doing tons of outreach and just communication, trying to promote a certain property or their community, just the demographics and what they can provide. Unfortunately, what I've noticed is most of those smaller rural communities, they don't have that position or role. So then you can go to the county because there can be a county EDC office or some regional, and they can really help be a proponent and support projects.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a great that that is a great idea. Well, let's move on um to the next um question around site care site characteristics, which would be access. So, what are some of the things that you guys look at? So now we've determined it's zoned properly, um, and so now we're trying to determine really the function of the site. So when you talk about access, what are the things that you are specifically looking at?

SPEAKER_02:

Uh Alex. Yeah, I'll give our first one. Yeah, with access, it's critical in all developments, but really with travel centers and fuel retailers, the access kind of dictates everything. And the things I'm looking at for access, and it's kind of a simplified list, but it's the number of access points, the driveway spacing, and then also what does that driveway design look like? Because not all driveways are created equal or designed the same, and sometimes that's dictated by DOT, city, county, but there can be times where you might have the access points that you want, as far as one on each road, but only one's gonna be right in, right out. So, how does that change your thinking of how we're bringing traffic in, especially trucks, and how we're having it maneuver through a site?

SPEAKER_01:

And I was gonna add to that, Debbie, a little bit to what Alex is just saying. With sea stores and fueling centers, there's certain uh checklist of items, uh aisle widths, like you mentioned, you've got your canopy location, you've got your turning radiuses, which are very important. You've got diesel trucks coming in, you've got Ford F-350 trucks that are moving into the uh dispenser area, you've got your path of travel routes, uh all the way down to where you're gonna put your bolyards and or wheel stops. There's just so many things that need to fall in line. And it gets back to what we said before, Alex, uh the visibility, the customer experience. It seems like more and more travel centers and sea stores are putting a lot of emphasis on that customer experience. They want to make sure that there's a clear delineation between uh the autos coming into the dispensary area and to keep that separated from where the trucks are moving in, and you've got where your USTs are going to be located, you've got your trash dumpster area and um where that come in for the servicing for the store, all those components. Wouldn't you agree or anything you want to add?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I would agree. And just going back to overall access, it's so critical for C stores and truck stops. I've seen projects that have been killed just because thought you get could get a driveway in a certain location, and then that was nixed, and you just don't have enough access in that developer or company's mind to make it that great customer experience to get in, get out quickly.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

I am I was gonna tell you, when it comes to access, I have a really, really specific example that surprised me, and I will not name names, um, but I am pull I pull up uh to a convenience store. I'm um first of all, I can't get in the front door because they're bringing inventory in. So their delivery truck parked across all of the front parking spaces, um, ran a ramp out of the middle of their truck. Um, and then they had yellow cones. So to even get in the store during that time, I'm climbing over yellow cones, um fighting with the door because only one side is open, one has a ramp running through it. And I'm just I'm thinking, what? Like this was one that they must have just wanted so badly. Um, I just was really surprised about the lack of actual function um on the site. And so when you talk about customer experience, and you know what, Debbie? Uh along with what you just said, another thing that could really affect products, but it was so aggravating to get in.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I was gonna say that if it's in a subdivision area, let's say you have a major anchor store, and there's a restricted covenant that says you cannot have deliveries during certain hours, or your service drive has to be separated from uh their visual sight lines. There's all sorts of things that could affect that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that's good. Okay, one follow-up question to at for access. Um, what recommendations do you guys have? We talked a little bit about it, but what recommendations um do you have for assessing and improving site access before um your project? I would say that was probably an unclear question.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's communicating communicating with that city or most of the time for truck stop travel centers. They're on major highways and interstates, so talking with the DOT. And really, as far as improving access, it's like it's almost impossible to do early on in the development stage. It really comes down to a traffic impact analysis, and I've seen it go a good way sometimes where you're presenting a site plan to a certain Department of Transportation, and you have three access points, and they're saying these two should be good, but this third one is iffy on if we'll approve it or not. But you need to do a traffic impact analysis, show all the information, show the level of service, show the queuing, all that stuff in there, and then once we see that and we analyze that, then we can make a decision on it.

SPEAKER_00:

That that sounds that sounds really that sounds good. Okay, um a couple other things that have already been brought up, um, kind of touched on, I g I suppose. So have that. Um so as we're moving on towards visibility, how critical is visibility in the context of fueling and convenience? I heard you mention earlier about frontage. So, Alex, what are how if you're looking for your fueling brands, how critical is um frontage? And um what are the kind of things you look for in visibility?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it's essential. Just like access and zoning, I've also seen projects be terminated because the visibility wasn't good enough in that company's mind. So it's definitely imperative. And you know, there's a lot that can go into visibility as far as store visibility and sign visibility, but I think from a truck stop travel center perspective, you know, a lot of them say transient traffic is our lifeline, it's our lifeblood. We have to be able to pull that off an interstate or highway to capture that. Otherwise, we're just not gonna have the numbers and generate the revenue we need or that we're expecting. So you can see if you're driving any major interstate in a certain or specific state where there'll be uh big high-rise square footage, and you can see that thing for a mile, three-quarters, half a mile out, and you know XYZ company is there, and they have this price for gas and this price for diesel.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I um so have you ever had, do you have an example of a project where this um actually came back and created an issue for you?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, one project was in Illinois, a little bit outside St. Louis, and the city was very supportive of the truck stop project, and they were going to allow a, I believe it's gonna be a hundred-foot tall high rise, and everything was moving smoothly until we got in contact with the FAA and learned that we're within a certain line of sight um area within an airport where planes are landing. So we had to do a lot of coordination with them, certain studies, and figure out what they would actually allow. So we had to reduce the high-rise sign a little bit. It was still high enough to be visible for a long enough time for a traveler on the interstate, but it was one of those things where you didn't think you expect it to come into play because it's not like the airport's right next to this trade shop. It's two miles away, but it's that line of flight for the plane that we had to adjust that high-rise for.

SPEAKER_00:

That that's a good tip because visibility you're thinking mostly signage, but absolutely it's it's those little details that sneak in that make real estate development so interesting.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and if you haven't gone through it before, then you just don't know about it. So I'd imagine any larger truck stuff travel center company or certain consultants, sign consultants, they're reaching out to the FAA, the Federal Aviation Association, on every single project and showing them where that high-rise or sign is going to be placed, what's the proposed height, and getting that sign off.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Um, well, let let's work towards utilities. Um that has been such an interesting topic over the last couple years because we had such a shortage in equipment related to utilities. But um, what it why is understanding the utility availability crucial during the preliminary research phase?

SPEAKER_02:

Jim, I'll let you start with this one.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, it's customary, of course. We uh we go through certain steps when we look at a project feasibility, we get a will serve letter to make sure which utilities are uh accessible uh in that community. And then once you have that list, then it's a matter of engineering it, looking at your site, trying to figure out where your elevation, where your invert elevations are, where the store main line is, where your water main is, if there's a gas service, etc. And then that's where when you open the lid, you may find some spark plugs that need to be replaced. You may have a situation like on a sanitary line that there's not enough full fall. There's not enough uh, it's like it has to be re-engineered. And so we have to put in a force main or a grinder pump. Uh, could be a situation where um we have to share the cost of that with adjoining landowners because the city's in the process of annexation uh their utility district. There's could be a host of factors. If we're working with a master developer, they're bringing the uh the power pedestals into the site, so we have to uh coordinate with their development and their approval on that. But um utilities are a very uh important component, and uh. You've got your stormwater, you've got your um sanitary, you've got the other wet utilities, you've got your power. The power could be a whole hornet's nest issue because we have to um coordinate with the local power uh provider, and that could take several months for them to order a transformer and have it delivered, and uh, and especially if it's in a hurricane-prone area, uh there could be extensive delays there during hurricane season, which means as a developer you have to get a head start on these uh issues. So um uh and also the other thing I was going to mention there could be easements that run in the property which prohibit where you can run your utility lines, and uh that could be a big problem. And we may have to put in exfiltration trenches, uh, we have to put in retention ponds, uh, so there's a whole host of things uh that go into the uh project, and that's what we do here at CEI, work on all those issues.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, and I can say, Debbie, just from uh a project manager or from a developer standpoint, like on the very front end, most of the time, whatever city you want to build in or you have a site located in, they should have some type of water and sewer map, at least to get an idea where those utilities are. Because there's sometimes where you can find out fairly quickly that this water line is half a mile away, and everything else might be great, and you still can move forward with that project, but then it's working with CEI and your engineers on what is that extension gonna look like, and can we get some expected cost for that? Because we know we need water here at this site.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's a good point, Alex. I just wanted to add one other thing to that is that it's always good to have a consultant that has a landscape uh department and your surveyors working hand in hand with your civil, because that that's really what it comes down to when you're trying to get that C of O to make sure your As built drawings are reflective of all the components, whether it's the signed location, the landscaping, the retention ponds, all the final elevations. And it's so refreshing because we have those departments in-house, so we can coordinate all this.

SPEAKER_00:

Alex, have you ever had a project that was um interrupted or impacted by uh utility coordination issues?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah, most definitely, especially when it comes to electric or gas, some of those utilities that it's a local or regional provider, and it can be a challenge to coordinate with some of those companies and just figuring out how we're extending this line or what we can do within an easement area. I've had a project in northeast Oklahoma where it took us probably nine months just to get this uh encroachment agreement signed off on because we're having to show them all the plans and what we were doing within their easement, and it was nothing major. It was grading, detention, driveways, no permanent structure or anything like that, but it was a ton of coordination and a lot of communication with them just to show them that everything we're doing adjacent to your facilities and within this easement, it's not going to damage or impact them.

SPEAKER_00:

We we here in utilities, what we are hearing a lot about now is people are addressing capacity issues. And so there's been so much, especially there are so many mid-sized cities that are just exploding. So it's a really, really fast infrastructure growth as well that cannot keep up with their population growth in those areas. And so it is putting a lot of stress on existing um systems. And so that I know that's something that we deal with in our part of the country, and so it's something very important just to remind everybody to make sure that you're asking the questions early and that you're in there. If you hear any red flag that pops up, um then take time to ask those follow-up questions because we all know that utility and that kind of infrastructure can be a uh a major, a major cost. So I think it's probably more expected because of the type of infrastructure it takes, like for a loves um or a travel center type property. Um so I know you guys deal with utilities in a in a major way, um, and that there's a lot of offsite improvements, and probably cities and towns that want you to as part of the community, they want you to contribute to the overall well-being. And so that sometimes also utility requests can extend past your property.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, for a developer and company, it's always good to know, at least as early as you can, what you're looking at, some type of just probable cost for utility extensions or major improvements, a lift station that has to go in, or anything else that the city's telling you as far as we know that the capacity's not here, so we're looking at you to do this, or it's some type of joint effort funding and just figuring out what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that's a good point. Well, let's move to the last topic, which is environmental considerations. Um, so the question I had is what are the different types of environmental reports? And the biggest question is when should they be obtained? Um we have some clients that go in and it's just part of their process to pull all of those reports and information early. They are kind of expecting a large amount of dead deal cost. They're investing heavily to make sure that they've got exactly the right property. Um and so it can be a longer real estate process with them, but um it there have been many, many questions about when to do a phase one. Do you need a phase one? Um, so what is your opinion on um what they are and when they should be obtained?

SPEAKER_01:

I'll I'll take a stab at this first, and then Alex, you can uh chime in, please. Um, you know, phase ones are so misunderstood, people just skim through them and not really pay a lot of attention to the to the actual information. And I've had projects where there is arsenic that was in the soil uh that people didn't see, but I knew that the planning department would highlight this in utilities and it can torpedo your application. But it's understanding how to deal with those uh issues. Don't be afraid of it. There's uh EPA threshold limits, but you may have to do a remediation plan or have a project plan worked out in advance with the regulatory agency. Um we did a project in uh Miami-Dade County, which is one of the toughest areas when it comes to environmental issues. And I remember um it was an outparcel in a shopping center, and we were putting up a convenience store, and the problem was that the area where this door was going up years ago was an old orchard, and they used um, I guess they had um pesticides that were used many years ago. But there were traces of the arsenic that were still there, but there was the consultant had a way to deal with it, uh, contain it, and and uh there's a way that wouldn't affect uh the people using the convenience store. But it's having the knowledge base to approach that early on and reflected in the engineering of your project. We put in special uh pollution uh baffles in the in the lines to test the turbidity levels to make sure everything complied with all the the um requirements. So um, you know, there's a phase one report we just spoke about. That's a phase two report. And even on phase two work, there are special grants that are available. There's the brownfield grant that is used throughout the country, it's money set aside by the local uh jurisdiction that can help finance the cost of dealing with these issues, and it's good to take advantage of it. Uh here at CEI we work closely with environmental uh companies uh that deal with this, and that's why we know we've dealt with all these issues. So, but do you want to add anything, Alex, to that?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, from the environmental side, I think a big thing that we're seeing more and more of, just because a lot of the easy, straightforward sites to develop for a larger travel center, those are gone, or most of them are gone. Now, I would say it's probably at least a third of sites I see, they have some type of wetland feature on them. And sometimes it's pretty insignificant and doesn't take long to work through. Other times you can count on a year, year and a half, two years to get that wetlands delineation, figure out what the impacts are and what you need to do to maybe relocate a stream or paying a mitigation bank and getting that approval and permit.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and you know what I wanted to add to what you just said, Alex? We've uh have dealt with this, our survey department, where you're in a flood hazard zone that says that you're in a high-risk uh 100-year flood hazard area. But since that time, the area that was put together 25 years ago, since that time, the area was built up. There's sidewalks, there's storm drains, there's catch basins, there's all these devices. So, what we do is we'll put together, we'll work on the request for map adjustment, uh, fill out the forms, and we do an elevation certification, our survey department, which is submitted to uh FEMA for re-certification. And that ends up costing less money uh as you go forward, because I know lenders look very closely at that, and if they see you you have a high uh flood hazard area, they're gonna charge more on the flood uh the insurance. So that's something we've been very busy with is doing those um LOMA requests.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, guys, um as we kind of come to the end of our podcast, I think this has been a really great conversation. So as we move to clip to our closing thoughts um in wrapping up, um, Alex, you can go first. What advice would you give to someone starting in the field of fueling development regarding site selection?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is if you're fortunate enough to shadow someone that's experienced or has done it for years, or be with them in person, it can go a long, long ways. That's how I learned. It was being with a lot of people who had done it for years, and just riding around with them on different scouting trips, site tours. It's a lot of windshield time. So you can see a site or two, and then you can have an hour, and you can ask a million questions as far as what you were looking at, what you liked, what you didn't like, and just really get a feel for how certain people evaluate properties. And then once you get that experience and knowledge, then you can kind of tweak it or maybe adjust it how you evaluate and assess a property. So if you're fortunate enough to be able to do that, in my opinion, that's the best you know, way to learn otherwise from that, if it's the truck stop fuel retail world, and I still do this, where if it's some truck stop I haven't been to, stopping there and walking around it and seeing how they laid it out, how they did certain things, watching trucks circulate through that site, what their movements are, what's that spacing from that diesel canopy to this row of truck parks, and identifying what you like, what you think doesn't work great, and if it's something that looks unusual or atypical, thinking about why they did it that way. Was there some environmental impact or something with setbacks where they had to work around that just to make it work?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I was gonna just say, Debbie, just as a quick add-on to Alex laid it out very eloquently. Uh, I know with our designers, just sitting out in your car and watching, just park your car and see the circulation going in and out and how things operate is worth a lot to take notes on that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. All the tools we have, like AutoCAD and just all these different resources, they're great, but seeing it firsthand, real life experience, as far as how are these people from these car parks walking to the store, how are people entering the site this way, and just the certain nuances, seeing it in person, boots on the ground, I mean, that's the the best kind of learning you can get because it's right there in front of you and it's real life.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I agree. I mean, we lean in so um heavy now into the AI tools. I think AI can be really, really helpful in sorting and helping you pare down and coming up with um maybe areas to start focusing on. But I I agree that um real learning, especially in real estate, to get the perspective, um, it is a boots on the ground because that's what you're working with at ground ground level to get people in into your project. So well, gentlemen, it has been a real pleasure today. I appreciate all the information that you um have passed on. Um I wish you guys um very much success. Alex, um, thank you so much for joining us today. We'll make sure that your um contact information is available. Um, should there be people that would like to follow up, talk with you a little bit more. Um and Jim, we have your information available as well for the those same reasons. So we're gonna record that part again. Well thank you guys for joining us today. That was a really um that was a really insightful conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Alex and I are gonna work together, so more too much.

SPEAKER_00:

That's really good. And I'll make sure that your contact information um is provided so that if people want to reach out um and get a little bit more information that um that we can make that available. So thank you very much for joining us. Good luck in your future developments, and um, we'll see you on a future episode of Plans to Places.