Turning Plans into Places: A CEI Podcast
Turning Plans into Places is a podcast by CEI Engineering Associates, where we explore the people, projects, and perspectives shaping the future of civil engineering, land surveying, landscape architecture, and site development across the United States.
In each episode, we dive into the real-world challenges and creative solutions behind the work we do, whether it's retail, fueling and convenience store development, outdoor recreation, municipal transportation, or sports facility engineering. Our expert guests break down the details, share industry insights, and highlight how CEI's integrated approach delivers smarter, more resilient places.
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Turning Plans into Places: A CEI Podcast
Ep. 6 – Connecting Cities, One Trail at a Time
What if a trail wasn’t just a trail, but the backbone of a region’s daily life? We share the inside story of the Razorback Greenway, how a community sketch along creeks became a 40-mile corridor that connects neighborhoods to schools, jobs, parks, and local businesses across Northwest Arkansas.
We start with the spark: Fayetteville’s early FAT Plan, a homegrown construction crew, and design lessons learned the hard way, wood decks swapped for concrete, weathering steel that lasts, and widths that anticipate e-bikes and growth. Then the breakthrough moment: a 2010 TIGER II grant matched by private philanthropy, six cities and two counties dropping the Friday night rivalries to work as one. You’ll hear how the team navigated 129 property owners, federal right-of-way rules, and early NIMBY fears that turned into gates cut into brand-new fences.
The conversation becomes a playbook for small and rural communities: choose the first mile that changes lives, write grants that quantify people connected instead of paper specs, and build momentum when awards fall through by phasing, regrouping, and trying again. We unpack the policies that compound progress, requiring developers to build mapped segments, securing recreational easements in utility corridors, and adopting standards that make the whole system feel seamless. Safety drives adoption, so tunnels replace risky crossings and gentle grades welcome all ages and abilities. E-bikes erase hills, university connectors unlock thousands of trips, and trail-facing retail shows the economic upside.
If you care about active transportation, downtown revival, safer streets, or practical climate wins, this one’s for you. Subscribe, share with a city leader, and leave a review to help more communities turn their first mile into a network.
Welcome back to Plans to Places, the podcast where we explore the stories behind bold ideas that shape the communities that we love. I'm Debbie Jones, the Director of Business Development and Marketing for CEI. And today we are talking about something close to the hearts of many growing cities, trails. So trails are not just about recreation, they're about connection between neighborhoods, cities, economies, and people. And on today's episode, I'm joined by two leaders behind one of the most ambitious and transformative trail systems in the country, the Razorback Greenway in Northwest Arkansas. So welcome.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:First, we have Matt Mahalovich, the active transportation manager for Fayet Pill, Arkansas, and Aaron Rushing, a nationally respected Master Trails consultant, who work together along with a unique coalition of community champions to guide the vision and the execution of this incredible project. Speaking of community champions, also joining us is Ryan Evitz, leader of CEI's nationally focused landscape architecture and outdoor recreation. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Thank you. Of course. So this has been a real gym in our community from my perspective, looking at business and development and marketing for the area as a whole. It's been amazing to hear the story of the Razorback Greenway and how it is really woven into the history of these communities. So I thought today would be a great opportunity for us to just talk about how that project came to fruition. I know that there are so many players involved, but I thought you guys had really unique perspectives involved in the process. So let's kind of get everybody caught up to speed about Razorback Greenway, just in case there are a couple of newbies out there. So maybe you guys can help us understand what was the original vision behind Razorback Greenway, and how has that vision evolved over time?
SPEAKER_01:I can speak for Fayetteville. Early on in 2001, Fayetteville uh got our community together and got our our residents and uh had created our first master plan called the Fayetteville Alternative and Trails Master Plan, the FAT Plan, which is kind of ironic, but it definitely has the opposite effect. Um but uh what I like about that plan is it really truly was uh community driven and and uh people get their markers out on plans and draw out the trail corridors. In Fayetteville, we have a lot of topography, so a lot of hills, and uh so naturally our trails follow our streams and our our creeks. Um so and particularly in Fayetteville, we have a stream called Skull Creek that runs north-south from right from like Dixon Street area uh all the way to uh Clear Creek and Johnson area. So uh that is now the the Razorbat Greenway through Fayetteville. But at that time it was the Skull Creek Trail and a big focus of getting that constructed uh when we had that adopted master plan in uh 2003, it was adopted. Something else really uh pivotal for Fayetteville is that in 2005 uh the city council created a crew that builds the trails. Uh so that's a nine-member city led, I mean city workers that uh have been building the trails since that time for the last 20 years. Um so they really get it dialed in and it it it's a more cost-effective way to build the trails uh and uh less uh less on the front end uh far as full you know design and uh has really proven to be kind of Fayetteville's secret sauce for getting the trails together. And then so kind of once that started, I mean, I think we can talk more regionally. We had the the the Skull Creek Trail completed in 2008, uh, and then started people you know started thinking, well, what if we could connect the whole region of northwest Arkansas with a trail? Like, wow, that's a bold idea.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and there were pieces in Binville that had already been constructed too. So you you you had stuff going on, Bentonville had some work going on that and the concept was like, hey, it'd be cool if we could connect at all. And that leads us to 2010.
SPEAKER_00:So what happened in 2010 that changed it? So one thing I think that is interesting is y'all's role at the time. So um I know your roles are different now, but at the time you guys had such a unique perspective from each of the cities. So help us get a little context there.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I I I was a designer at CI Engineering, and I was one of the first people here on the ground doing trail design um in in Bentonville. And I was fortunate enough to to build some of the Razorback Greenway back in the early 2000s that eventually became Razorback Greenway. But yeah. Um, Active Transportation Committee, I'm sure Matt will speak about, but there was an opportunity to apply for a federal grant, Tiger II grant. And um as part of that active transportation committee, we applied for a grant for I think it was 25 million and were awarded 15 million in 2010. And um it was so you I say all that because you can you can smart small. I mean you can be a a small committee and get a big project. And um, Matt, you want to you can speak to the committee. I think you were the chair.
SPEAKER_01:I don't want to give a shout out to Northwest Arkansas Regional Planning Commission that they were very instrumental. And that was that this committee, the Active Transportation Committee, is through them. It's a subcommittee of of the Northwest Arkansas Regional Planning Commission. Uh and and they really spearheaded uh the project. But yeah, it was we've started a meeting and and said, well, you know, what if what if we could do this bold idea of connecting the community? And then uh with the the help from private sponsors as well, and uh in the Tiger 2 print, um then it really started to come together. And it was really interesting to see these communities really embrace trails at that time, like Springdale, Lowell, Johnson. Uh, you know, they were kind of like, hmm, okay, this could be good.
SPEAKER_03:They were in the middle and and they did really didn't have much for trails. Doubt not much built Baywide Trails, Benwide Trails, and they were in the middle, didn't have any trails. So yeah, they they learned a lot.
SPEAKER_02:They learned a lot, and they've just just completely embraced them now, you know. It's perfect, perfect segue segue because what you guys said was, hey, we both we're in we're basically at the ends of the Greenway in in some regards. Today it's a little further north than just two counties. We're in two different counties. Two counties, two up, you know, two two opposing ends of the trail system, and you both had kind of independent things going on. But how do you get from two communities where there's some momentum to a couple of these communities that you mentioned where they're there it was a brand new concept, right? You mentioned the Northwest Arkansas Regional Planning Commission, but like kind of unfold that process a little bit from from your perspective, you know, because it's a big idea that requires a lot of support to get from we have an idea and some momentum to we have a plan and a Tiger II grant, right? There's a there's a lot of a lot of middle ground.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it it certainly helped for those communities to get on board by having this project funded, you know. Basically, it was sort of okay, here we're this is funded. So the momentum came through, hey, we've got a grant to actually redoing significant abortion bill. Um but but the like I said, those those community leaders uh in all of the all the cities just really embraced it. And and we we called it back then the the they kind of put away the Friday night lights, like the high school competitive uhness and said, Hey, let's do this. We're together. Uh you know, and that that was really, I think, amazing to see that the Northwest Arkansas has that unity of a team effort.
SPEAKER_03:Like, yeah, let's do this. Six six cities, two counties all come together for one one project. And it was it was really cool to watch.
SPEAKER_00:So it is it is interesting. It sounds like it started really humble beginnings, lots of brassroot ideas. Then you had the organization, you had a lot of people that were boots on the ground, that were really interested. Um, when you talk and you think how far it's come from the ideas of 2001 to the funding in 2010, I'll have to tell you that last year I went to Crested Butte and we took the um it was the fat plan because we took the lift up to the mountain instead of walking up to the mountain. So we took the lift up. But it was amazing underneath the lift. They had created all of these downhill mountain bike trails. And um, so we do our thing up up top. We can ride back down, and at the bottom they have that volunteer that's helping everybody dismount. Um, and so she's having a conversation and asks where we're from. And it's a Bentonville. And she said, What a great area. That is where we all go during down season. And I'm like, where is my phone? Um, that was unprompted. It was amazing to me to see that that you guys had reached such a level of recognition and quality and depth in what you created that it it is a favorite of um of cyclists and bicyclists of all of all levels. But I it just blew me away that that was just unprompted.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I had a similar thing. I was just writing skis at Keystone, Colorado. And the the the guy ranning there, I told him where I was from, and he was like, Oh, our employee that wasn't there, used to be there, um, loved coming here so much that he moved here. So they were kind of bummed, like, your your region took him away. Keystone.
SPEAKER_00:And I think that's the piece that doesn't always get talked about. You know, you mentioned Transportation Committee. Um, in the beginning, you guys were talking about trails. So where did you link it to active transportation to really start down that road? Um where did that start in the conversation?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I can speak for Fayeville. We we have had transportation kind of always is the core principle of our plan. Um, feeling like if we can really connect people with their destinations and give them that option to, you know, to go for a different way of getting to their destinations of on a bike or foot, uh, you know, can really help impact our congestion, our vehicle congestion. So always kind of built in there. And we felt like connecting parks and then that ties into recreation too. But uh yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think there was a hope in the beginning in 2010. It was it was a lot of recreation. You know, people weren't you know riding their bike to work. I mean, we were hoping, we're hoping they would be used for more active transportation, and and it has, especially now the e-bikes are e-bikes are changing the really changing the way we we should have built it bigger, we should have built it wider. Um there's so much so much activity on it now. But yeah, I think in the beginning it was it was a lot of recreation, and then you know, with the hope that it would be more active transportation, and and it has. It's really worked.
SPEAKER_00:It's amazing. The um so it sounds like there were some real challenges in the beginning that you guys um kind of worked way through. I think first of all, it sounded like you stated your intention, so it was happening. Um so what were some of the biggest challenges, do you think?
SPEAKER_03:I think that was that it was you know, we it a property, property acquisition, easement acquisition. And you know, you take the, you know, pieces of the Razorback were built on the north end, on the south end, but there's this big chunk in the middle, like 20 miles in the middle. Um, and there was 129 property owners in the middle, you know, up and down this spine. That was one of the biggest challenges. The other piece of it, it was a federal project. So you can imagine the federal red tape and going through uh the procurement process with the Easmots and Rideaway. It was it was a challenging design standards meeting the federal process and going through that with the highway department. It was it was it was hard. Um, but what was amazing is we did it really quick. We did it really quick. Yeah. From you know, we we cut the last ribbon in 2015. So it was start 2010 and and end up in 2015. That was five years for a 40. At the time, 40 mile trail system was was pretty amazing. But at the time, it was hard. It was really hard, and it was a grind. Um, but we had a good team and a lot of support, so that helped a lot.
SPEAKER_00:That number 129, that is not a number that you seem uncertain about. No, um, so that sounds like a lot of conversations.
SPEAKER_03:A lot of conversations. And you know, we we had a lot of public meetings up front, and and I remember specifically in Springdale, there were people that showed up at these public meetings beating their fist on the table, and and they were mad. Hey, we're gonna take their land and we're gonna decrease our property values. But it was it was hard, it was challenging, but we stayed with it. And uh look at look at what we've got.
SPEAKER_01:And um some of those early days, people didn't really understand the benefits that the trail brings actually increases property values and not decrease. Uh so we would have a lot of that, like almost, I guess, fear of unknown what it's gonna do, you know, bringing those people, like you know, that's what they say, those people. Who are those people? But that turns out they're families and they're your neighbors that are gonna be coming through there on that trail. And they're not gonna be hauling your flat screen TV with them, right? You know, and breaking in and all that. And so I mean, uh, it's been nice that we've been able to sort of prove that that you know, my favorite thing is whenever a property owner um wanted a fence, you know, they that's part of a lot of the deals is okay, a fence. Well, then later they cut a gate and they want access to the train. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So it's it has you know, it's just a learning. I remember a particular neighborhood that every one of them, there's like 10 property owners in a row, and we we had an easement already through the City of Rogers, and and they all wanted fences, and we built them fences, and uh, and then later I go I go back and ride it, you know, a few months later I have to open every single one of Medigate cut in cut in. Nice.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. That is proof. I think that's proof.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and and they those they were not happy with the trail in their backyard, but I'm like, look, you already got an easement there. You're not much you can do about it at this point.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, now the narrative's taking a 180, right? Because you talked about the marketing capacity of owning a home that's directly connected to the cans and you're like, that's huge, right?
SPEAKER_03:You look at every real estate listing, its proximity to a tank. I'm sure they were thanking this later when they sold their house.
SPEAKER_00:The card's probably in the mail.
SPEAKER_01:You know, anyone saying, calling me like, oh my gosh, that was the worst thing I've ever done. Like, I wish I'd never signed that ease in Tober. They they won't be sending thank you notes, but at least they wouldn't be just like, you know, they they'll know that it was gotten easier.
SPEAKER_03:I know you're still you're still in it, still doing it. And it's gotten easier. The more you can educate people, the more they can see the benefits and they can touch it and feel it. It is the easement right-of-way acquisition piece of it has gotten easier.
SPEAKER_00:The other thing that I really like about what you said, City of Fayetteville sounded like they were very intentional about this was their plan. And most people, um, or it would appear, um, that the kind of that maintenance, the maintenance department develops after the trails. So as need goes and there's a train there's a transition period. But for you to really plan up front a maintenance department and understand the the quality and how it comes together, feels like that would be a great conversation and information also how you guys maintain the trails that could really impact um the design of it.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:What are some ways that your maintenance department has impacted the design? And we'll be cutting this question and moving it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, early on, I think about our bridges. Like we learned that wood planked bridges. That's bad idea. And so concrete decking on our bridges, weathering steel, core tin.
SPEAKER_03:You know, you know, one of the things in in the maintenance piece of you had six cities, some were new to maintenance. Sick, you want this to be a cohesive project and all look you you didn't really want to know where you moved from one city to the next. The maintenance piece of because each city was responsible for maintenance, the maintenance was different as you went from city to city. Some some weren't maintaining it as well as they should have early on. And um, and everybody got better. Everybody got better. They would look at their other cities and like, oh, their city looks really good. Well, that's we probably need to up our game, mow a little bit more, a little bit better. And um, but yeah, some of the cities were new to maintenance early early on. So I've been really impressed with the city of Johnson.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, they were all new to Trendel. They know Trent. And it's you know, it butts with Fayetteville, but oh they're they're always they're part of their trail just looks like a golf course and through there. It was a learning curve.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like there was a learning curve early on when they first were gifted the trail.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh. Yeah, you gotta kind of ramp up for that.
SPEAKER_02:That maintenance. Well, I think maybe that question evolves a little bit from were there were there uh materials or configurations that were used early on that were identified to be, you know, inferior or you know other than flex posts, that that would probably be the big yeah.
SPEAKER_03:You know, we like asked flexible pain. We have had some asphalt trails, yeah. But uh over the years we've learned that concrete is really gonna be superior. Some of the just the if you get into the details of it, um, you know, saw cut joints compared to tool joints. You know, it was it was big, and we were learning that through the Razorback Green. Like, what are these, what are these these big bigger radiuses? Yeah. Um but better signage. So it was it would it was hard to start with, but we now see why why we went that extra step and why we tried to keep everything under five percent.
SPEAKER_01:So it was uh it was something we had an advantage in this region is that uh a lot of the best practices of trail design had kind of been more established uh by the time we were building it. A lot of other cities across the country built their trails, you know, 30 years ago and uh was able to to learn from them. And one of the bigger ones is the width, you know, just going with 12 feet, which Aaron already mentioned is not wide enough. And we had we have sections now that are 16, even, you know, as we see the busier sections like Lake Vnapil Dam. Uh but I feel so fortunate for our region to be able to have learned from those other uh communities in in the country for the best practices, including concrete. I mean, that's one of the biggest things that that's really incredible because it is cost more up front, but it's gonna pay us so much dividends in the future. We're gonna have a trail that lasts a hundred years potentially, you know. And we're not talking just a four-inch slab. We're talking six-inch slabs.
SPEAKER_02:Most of it is fiber reinforced.
SPEAKER_03:I'm sure that's fiber reinforcement over time as well. We learned fiber reinforcement through the major field. And that's now it's it's kind of the standard standard. And cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's gonna serve us so well. I'm just so pleased with that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you mentioned Johnson, which is kind of a perfect segue. Johnson is a very small um community in Arkansas. And so, and they were new, but in that experience for a small community in general that is just starting out. So, what are some of the first steps in exploring a trail project? Johnson sounds lucky because they were for us.
SPEAKER_03:I would say, I mean, I'm I've been in involved in it from the start, and you have too, Matt. I I would say is don't you you you think you can't do it, but you really can, and have a have a plan, develop a master plan. The master plan is the best thing you can do is come up with a plan, vet it through the community, get the community buy-in, and and you simply start with a small committee and and some small uh grassroots and and don't you don't think you can't do it. Don't think it's too big, we can't do it. Um, because you can't. We we we did we've done it.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, and chip away from that plan. You can also um apply for grant funding. So there's recreational trails program, there's transportation alternatives program through through RDOT, um, carbon reduction program is another one. So those are annual funding sources uh that you know you've you have this plan, you say, okay, maybe let's let's focus on this trail. It's gonna also recommend figuring out that trail that's gonna really make an impact to the community as far as connecting. Maybe it's connecting a school to a neighborhood uh or some other destination and and start with that one because that would be the most successful, and then it will kind of like a snowball effect, it can gain momentum and all of it takes time.
SPEAKER_03:You have to be patient. I mean, what what we have here today is I think probably 220 miles in the region of pay trails, and it took 25, maybe 30, 30 years. We didn't have any probably 30 years ago. And uh, and look, yeah, I think that's I think the number's two 200 and something. Okay. Some yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So you mentioned the um 129 owners. And one of the big questions is how do you determine, like how would you pick the best path? Does that come later? You talked about master planning. Does that come early?
SPEAKER_03:I'm that was part of the design process is picking the best route that that didn't adversely affect, you know, um like Matt said earlier, we try to follow drainage patterns, but there were there were early-on designs. We vetted the project out. I remember walking it from end to end, the the piece that wasn't designed in the middle, and trying to figure out is it is it best is a shared use facility, is it best falling a utility corridor? And we have all of those scenarios, some of it was on public streets as as cycle tracks. So, you know, you have to go through that design process to figure out who you're impacting, who you need to talk to.
SPEAKER_02:So I know one of the one of the things that comes to my mind when you start talking about, you know, the 10 people on Rogers as the example you used previously. Help me help help help the people who are listening kind of walk through the not in my backyard mentality that you discussed. Because from a crime prevention standpoint alone, you talked about everybody wanting a fence, right? So it creates this barrier, this line of sight uh uh barrier between people who are trying to have a private experience in their backyard and people who are on the trail having a very otherwise public experience. But the best thing to deter criminal activity is put eyes on the facility, right? So you've created this corridor where there's this opportunity for more crime versus opening it up and saying, no, we're gonna monitor, we live here. It's like the neighborhood wash program. We're gonna we're gonna watch everybody who goes by and make sure that what they're doing is within alignment of the expectation from a social perspective. So talk to talk about that perception of, you know, not in my backyard, or we, you know, devalue our property devaluation and yeah, I I would say that, you know, the people that are using the trails are are your neighbors, or a lot of the people that you already know.
SPEAKER_03:And and yeah, they're it's it's uncomfortable at first to have people, strangers in your backyard, but you know, over time you you realize the benefits far outweigh anything negative. And the more eyes you can put, I mean, it in this case where the 10 property owners were, it was it was a vacant piece of property, and there's no telling what was going on back there. But uh now it's it's very open, it's very public. Everybody you see you again, you see your neighbors, you see your neighbors' kids. So it it's it's I don't think any of those 10 neighbors would regret it for a minute having that in their backyard. So good.
SPEAKER_01:Putting a kind of similar example.
SPEAKER_02:Matt, have you had some challenges in Fayetteville specifically where it gives big aversion or you know, grassroots efforts to stop a section of trail?
SPEAKER_01:Um I like to work with property owners individually more than trying to have like a mob mentality because if I'm using the right word, um just a group. Sometimes can a group thinking kind of so just dealing with each property owner individually and how their needs are uh varied. You know, maybe they need something different, you know. And so like sometimes landscaping instead of a fence, which is can be really nice, uh uh landscape buffer or screening. Um yeah, it's I've heard of everything.
SPEAKER_03:So everybody is different, and they all some have concerns saying that you can address them pretty easy with a fence or or you know evergreen trees or whatever it is, or just a maybe a simple alignment, a realignment shift. Um, but everybody seems to be different. And you usually you can you can find some common ground somewhere.
SPEAKER_01:And of course we're paying them too, which helps to collect money in general.
SPEAKER_00:So it does help. Um while we're talking about funding and resources, a lot of our listeners are from smaller or rural communities with big dreams but limited budgets. You alluded to it earlier about some of the different kinds of funding that would be out there. Um you're thinking about the smartest first move that they can make if they want to build a trail system, it sounded like master planning. Um, are is there funding available for master planning for small communities? Yes. Okay. What can we talk a little more about that?
SPEAKER_01:Those those same grant programs that I mentioned, recreational trails, transportation alternatives, um the the the planning is is allowed, you know, as part of it. Uh you can get a grant through that. Uh to get started, yeah. That's to have that planned there.
SPEAKER_00:So what for the Razorback um Greenway, what were the main funding sources? Were they?
SPEAKER_03:Well you had the Tiger II grant and then the Walden Family Foundation matching grant. So two$15 million grants to build it. W with the agreement from the cities that they would agree to maintain it. So there's the c the cities had all had uh an interest in it as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and then Lake Fayetteville and Middenville, we already had sections. So we had we had at least four miles of the Razorback Greenway uh already built at that time.
SPEAKER_00:So Okay, and being maintained.
SPEAKER_01:And already maintained. Uh so that was just like tying it on and extending it through Johnson. We already had it around Lake Fayetteville, so just kind of hooking in some of those pieces.
SPEAKER_03:I think what we found, you know, can those connection pieces, what we found out early on was that you you build the nice new facilities, it made the older sections like, ooh, that really needs to be upgraded, or or people maybe not want to use those pieces that were existing. So it really made us from that point forward, it's kind of set the standard of like, you know, people would always ask, what's the best section to go ride? And I'm like, it's really the newer pieces? Yeah, right. North of Springdale downtown. Yeah, absolutely. Through there, yeah, Thompson. That's right. Those are from my favorites.
SPEAKER_00:Me too, me too. I'll have to go check those out. Go check those out. Um, one thing that is interesting, you guys have talked about um community engagement and kind of people's opinions as they have evolved. Um so were there any surprising champions that came out to support you? Um champions or influencers that that popped up that maybe helped you gain momentum?
SPEAKER_01:You know, I'm thinking m some from from the health benefit side of things. Um so you know, the trails have so many benefits. You know, the recreational, uh the transportation we talked about, health, and now economic development too, we're seeing more and more. So some of the more uh private sector community healthcare areas um we're were certainly champions. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I think from you know, early on, it was if if you're trying to route these trails through areas, it was a lot easier to drove the trails through the commercial, to a commercial area or a retail area than it was through residential. And if you're trying to pick a path of like where to put this, the commercial people were a lot easier to deal with than than the residential were. And I was thinking about Mercy too.
SPEAKER_01:It's a tri Mercy's there's a trail near the campus. Yeah. Got a trail that and goes to the campus. Yeah. So that was the champion there.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's kind of a unique thing. You may not think you're in a small community, and you're like, who really could have a vested interest in this trail? Um, I do think that some of the economic benefits have been really surprising um and kind of surpass people's expectations. Um so do you guys have any examples of how some communities have really thrived based on adding in um pieces of the trail?
SPEAKER_03:I think all the communities have benefited from the trail. Some some have really benefited. Springdale is an explanation. Springdale downtown. And I and I have a story. I remember one day, I don't know if you were there we were eating lunch with the with the design team, and Chuck Flink told Patsy Christie, said, Hey, this is going to transform downtown Springdale. And downtown Springdale at the time wasn't wasn't much. They didn't try over the years. They tried to try to reinstate the street. But this, the Razorback Greenway blew it up. I mean, it is you go there today and it's a totally different downtown. And and I told Chuck years later, I'm like, dude, I thought you were crazy. I really thought you were crazy. And he laughed and he goes, Oh, I knew I knew it, I could see it. And I'm like, man, you you nailed it. You were right. He was right. Yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. Um, I think you know, when we finished it in 2015, there really wasn't any trail facing really no trail facing retail. Um but but now you go up and down the trail and it's there's little places stop and have a beer and restaurants and taco stands, and it's it's pretty cool. So I I have I have no doubt that it has made a difference in the economics uh of the region.
SPEAKER_00:They um there's lots of reports that are out um about it that support that. And I think it's also really interesting to see that University of Arkansas has um also been responding. in the education offerings that they have regarding the economics for trails and trail development and trail construction. Have you guys um have you guys noticed the impact of that?
SPEAKER_01:Um something that with the U of A campus, we have 34,000 people and the reserve at Greenway actually goes in front, but it was just separated by only half quarter mile, half a mile. So really excited that right now we're under construction on Maple Street and it includes eight foot sidewalks for the pedestrians and a nine foot wide two-way bike path that's directly connecting the Razorback Greenway to into campus at Garland. So something we've been working on actually for eight years on the design of this project and some different funding sources didn't work out. But finally we were able to get secure funding through these safe uh streets and roads for all programs. So federal funding and then matching with the university and the city. And so we're partnered together on it. Construction has been going well. So if you're in that area that's what's being built and next summer hope to end of next summer be finished in 2026. That was the east-west uh terminal points on that side uh so it goes from the greenway on the east side by the by the historic bridge or the railroad by west close to right by west it is right by the railroad tracks and then extends to Garland Avenue to Garland okay uh and also there's already 10 foot side paths on Razorback Road and the rest of Maple so that'll connect in and then the university is really excited about their Oak Ridge trail they they are going to be continuing that around so actually having a loop around campus and with the trail. Nice.
SPEAKER_00:So very exciting how can smaller communities scale trail developments to match their budgets and needs without losing sight of long-term goals you guys have touched on that a lot here but it's like really how um can they keep moving forward? Every question we have asked today I think the um running theme that keeps coming up is keep trying. Our grant fell through but we had a backup plan and so here are the here's what we did here's what we tried we we never really gave up we just kept going after it. You've got a lot of small communities they're writing grants or they're about to write a grant so it sounds like we've got master plan and if they're really going to be looking at a grant are there any tips or tricks to grant writing that might help them be more successful or if there's so much information, how do they sort it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah something for the communities to keep in mind is I they don't need a a grant writer for these grants. Uh the the grants are different than maybe you would think like oh this you know I have to be a perfect author, writer, you know, kind of person. It's more about the knowing the project and then including that passion about this is going to connect this number of people at this school, you know, to this neighborhood that has 500 people and you know this is a essential project for the infrastructure and and breaking off pieces that are attainable. But yeah as far as grant writing I I think just having somebody that's passionate on the staff that can can write those you know really kind of sell it by what it'll provide, uh what that trail will do.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So focus on the actual impact to your community and less on the physicality of the trail itself. Really know your community and bring those things up.
SPEAKER_03:Make sure that that gets included in your why for your and I think if you're uh if you're a small community and you don't really have any infrastructure go visit one that does. Go talk to the leadership there to go talk to the people who did it and get a good feel for it. So if again it's it's it goes all the way back to 25 years ago when people didn't know what we were trying to do. And uh and you you sometimes you just have to show them go show them the benefits and and go visit these cities. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Debbie you asked earlier in that question about you know sort of backup plans if maybe a grant falls through and how how to keep the momentum alive and and I think y'all probably have experienced that at one point or another. So were there were there just sections that you said okay we're gonna have to pause or were were there alternatives that that that you had access to? Alternatives like alternative funding sources.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I mean this this Maple Street example um it's about$10 million project so it wasn't we did we simply didn't have the money. So uh when the grants fell through actually three times uh different we just kept trying you know just keep trying and then went through a different federal pro program and then we're successful. Uh we grouped the project too. So actually that award is part of five projects in the city of A Bill that's part of a$25 million federal grant through the safe routes and their safe streets and roads for all program. So yeah just not giving up on that I mean we had it fully described and there was in the back of my mind like what if this doesn't uh happen and you figured out yeah just keep trying.
SPEAKER_02:What's the duration I'll take no for an answer from from we have an idea to we have a project give me an idea of duration.
SPEAKER_01:You said you said you went through three cycles uh before you were successful oh on that project like I said they that project spent eight years eight years and a typical you know probably projects about two I would expect with grant funding I would say that interesting um in Fayetteville too with our crew we have our in-house construction crew I mentioned earlier we can move pretty quick on and getting projects built I wanted to mention that for the small towns too like a lot of times they have you know crews or staff on their on their um on the city either through public works or or something like that and that that can be a very cost effective way to at least get something built um to start. So maybe they could consider this model for Fayetteville with using our own staff our own crews has been very successful. I haven't really seen it other places I haven't seen and I'm surprised by that um you guys do great work yeah I mean those guys are really really have it down in this they're as good as is what you know a contractor would be to do it. Yeah and and we are able to keep them you know on staff and then they learn it and a more cost effective model. Now you're building you're building your own team of trailer yeah we built that so like all the design things they know I don't even have to be out there like oh we gotta be sure it's less than two percent cross slope or five percent like oh yeah we got this so you mentioned that is one strategy that a small community could use.
SPEAKER_00:Are there models or strategies from the Brazierback Greenway project that could easily be adapted elsewhere? So I love the street the streetcare idea you're really looking at your own resources and what you have to start with. Looked at corporate champions um and partnerships.
SPEAKER_01:But any other strategies that you guys um something else that that's really helpful and all of our city ordinances have it now is that the the when the development comes in and so this is something a small community can do too it's just a it's just a code in the in their development code that says okay you're putting in this new apartment building we have on our master plan that we've got adopted right we already did our master plan it says there's supposed to be a trail here uh so we're gonna actually ask you to build that as part of your project and then you get a piece and I was just noticing it right out here in Rogers I mean I'm seeing some pieces it says trail ins for now and that'll get connected later. And so that has been really instrumental because it's always so much more efficient and easier to build that piece of trail when that project's being built.
SPEAKER_02:I mean and the right of ways taken care of as part of the project it's designed in inevitably if if you don't there is a utility box put right in the way you notice that's been a part of two of those projects where that that expectation is is alive and so I think it's very effective to your point Matt.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah and that's a way to build that network out and then the next one develops and we hook in or else the city says okay well we can we can attain building points piece little pieces trail and connect these two that a development built.
SPEAKER_03:From a planning perspective one thing I've seen some of the cities do is incorporate the word recreation into utility easements. So when you're you've got a sewer line going up a drainage area where where a lot of these trails go they they build in a recreational piece of it. So in the future if those cities ever want to develop that into a trail they already had the the vehicle there to be able to do it. I thought that was super smart and and and cheap right doesn't cost doesn't cost anything so it opens the door for the more more cities I've only seen in one city I don't know if you guys do it in Fayebuille but we would we would require a multi-use trailer that's right but we're actually asking to build it to and do the easement.
SPEAKER_01:But those communities you know if they felt like oh this is too much to ask maybe and it it is based on how big of a project is if you're if someone's remodeling their house obviously they don't have to do that and it is when it's kind of a bigger project. But at least getting that easement like you said because that secures it for the future.
SPEAKER_03:So on the easement discussion talk about partnerships that were profitable in the whole we're open to using the easement for trail and maybe some little less yeah so even on this wasn't a part of the Rise back greenway but that there's utilities out there that they're out across a big field. And you know we start working with like hey we we work with a city utility and they're like well there's a sewer line going through here you can use it. But you if you make it six inches thick and you reinforce it we can drive our trucks on it. That's great. That's access for us that we didn't have before so sometimes these utilities are more apt to like hey let's let's work together. Great point. And um even you know the big power lines are the same way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah that's been my experience with power cut same way. Like all weather access and absolutely whenever they it's maybe a storm and it's wet I mean they they can get in there and fix it.
SPEAKER_03:So it's dual purpose at that point. But again it's you you try to figure it out work together and yeah look at those corridors for utilities, um sewer, electric, sometimes water they work well for you for trails.
SPEAKER_00:So I just hear all these different ideas and I'm thinking as a small community this would be really exciting just because you're really starting to to be able to think and brainstorm and really picture how they could make it happen or at least get it started. One of the things I think that is very interesting in Vintonville, I'm sure Fayetteville as well um but you guys have such a strong biking culture and community. So has it always been like that? And if not like how did you guys encourage it?
SPEAKER_03:How did you how did you I I don't think I encouraged it but it you know when you when you put a facility out there that's safe and um again it all goes back to safety. We we have we have trails that people wouldn't cross roadways because they were busy. They might have 5000 cars a day on it. You put a tunnel underneath the street and then all of a sudden well we can we can ride from here to there. We can go five miles without crossing a street and I think if you can put safe infrastructure out there people will use it. And and I don't as far as encouraging people to use it no we didn't they they find it on their own but again it has it has to be safe.
SPEAKER_01:It has to be safe yeah it's kind of that old slogan if you build it they will come and that's been the case. But if you if you build it right you gotta build it right safe you have to build it right and don't give up on those intersections. I mean that's where the the small communities too maybe if they're building a section you know inevitably it kind of tries to end at a where the hard part was you know one of the bigger roads and that's where you know the tunnels I mean the region also just really been great about getting great separated crossings and that's the best for all safety. Back to the safety comment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah just one final I love the fact that you um that this area has really put a lot of time and thought into creating useful websites um and applications so that they can go people can go in they can really sort out the trail they want they can pick the experience that they want and I think that that's something that has made it a lot more accessible. So are is there anything I'm not really sure what the question is there.
SPEAKER_01:Well I should give just a kind of a plug out to the Razorback Greenway Alliance that that is a group of one member from each of the seven cities that the Greenway goes through and this is kind of a newer organization but what what we're working on is just keeping the greenway at a very high high bar high level of uh quality from maintenance uh we're redoing the mile marker post and the um wayfinding signage also running the the website uh the greenway website and the and the mapping and uh we even have some some shirts and different things that you can get just to really kind of promote it and and really appreciate and take care of this amenity that we have well I think what's something that you guys should be incredibly incredibly proud of and I know it's such made such a big difference here.
SPEAKER_02:So I'd like to jump in really quick Debbie if I can so if you guys had 60 seconds to pitch to a small town mayor on why trails should be a priority what would you say to them?
SPEAKER_01:I would say that that's what their community's going to be wanting. I mean sure they've already heard that if that's the case because it it feels like throughout at least Arkansas and really everywhere that these uh that's what that's what they want. That's what they want. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:If you go to any community survey I mean we do community surveys all the time and they see I feel like trails are up there toward the top all the time.
SPEAKER_01:Every one at all people like to be able to get outside and walk or go somewhere and then ideally get to their destination in a different way without always having to you know get in their car and sit in traffic and all the things so when you think about how far we've come and you look 10 years into the future what it what does success look like for trial connectivity in the United States?
SPEAKER_03:Do you see those um catching on I don't see it slowing down. I don't see it slowing down and again I mentioned e-bikes earlier more people are out on bikes now than ever and you you take you're you're you're appealing to basically all ages all abilities now um and there was a barrier before if you know some people couldn't couldn't physically ride a bike and others were coming bikes and e-bikes and again there's more people we're not making them big enough I feel like nowadays they need to be wider bigger uh but I I don't see it slowing down soon I don't yeah I'm glad you mentioned the e-bikes that's also really helpful in Fayetteville for with our hills and topography.
SPEAKER_01:I mean that's just like that's that is most people that are commuting what we're finding, they're commuting by e-bike. That's pretty almost hands down. And then I want to mention too in Fayetteville our goal is to connect all all the neighborhoods and all the people all residents within a half mile of a trail which is a three minute bike ride or um like a five minute walk or 10 minute walk I think um and so we're working really hard and we're at like around 77 I think percent is what we have right now. So we're going to continue to connect those people because really people don't want to load up their bike especially an e-bike which is pretty heavy take it to a trailhead go to around but ideally when you can go from your house and and be connected into the whole network.
SPEAKER_03:Is there a moment during the journey that that really sticks out to y'all I mean is there is there uh where you felt like the impact of the work was really having meaningful powerful impact on the lives of of the community I think for the for the razor bracket stuff we celebrated every single there were seven sections and we celebrated every single one of them in every community and I and I went to all of them and and it was overwhelming um just the support and uh and appreciation on what we did.
SPEAKER_01:But yeah don't forget to celebrate the successes for sure and I you know I see it you you can kind of tell maybe that somebody using the trail wouldn't have been there if that facility wasn't there. You know and they're out there trying to be more physically fit or get to their destination you know you see them carrying groceries and things like that that maybe they didn't have that option to drive there and it's expensive. Cars are expensive. I mean any way around it insurance gas everything. So just for me it's very rewarding to be able to see that wow you know what we created this and they're able to get to their destination or or or help you know be more healthy. I've had people say like oh my gosh you know this trail saved my life you know and so upper it would be a healthier region and uh better mobility and safer to get around.
SPEAKER_03:Well just the diversity is on the trail today it's it's really it's really fun to see it's crazy.
SPEAKER_01:So that's rewarding to me always when I see them out there I'm like geez that's the goal we did it in that way. And we're continuing to do it but keep going.
SPEAKER_00:Well I appreciate you guys so much. That was such a rich conversation. Thank you again Matt, Aaron and Ryan for sharing not just the how but also a lot of the whys um behind successful trail development. So if you're part of a small community wondering if a trail can work for you, the answer is yes. Start small, think big, and find your champions. For resources, links and show notes help head over to SCEIENG.com and if you enjoyed this episode please subscribe and leave us a review. It helps more community leaders and dreamers find us. Join me next time on Plans to places where we'll explore designing the fields of dreams for student athletes. Until then keep planning keep engineering and keep moving forward thank you guys thank you.