The Face of Animal Testing | Otis & Photographer Robert Sturman

This week, west L.A. artist & photographer Robert Sturman sat down with Sandy to share the incredible story of Otis — his rescued Coonhound, who survived appalling animal testing at the infamous Marshall BioResources facility.
Known for his pioneering Polaroid art and creating the 2005 Grammy Awards poster, Robert now uses his voice and images to raise awareness about animal cruelty, compassion and healing.
From photographing yoga in prisons to rescuing Otis and campaigning against animal testing, this is a powerful conversation about art, activism, spirituality, and hope.

Chapter 1, Otis: 00:00:11
Chapter 2, Robert: 00:25:38

You can find Robert here:
www.robertsturmanstudio.com
Or on Instagram @robertsturman 

You can find Otis on Instagram:
@otisthehandsomehound 

Get involved, stop the breeding of dogs for laboratory testing.
Please visit: www.savethedogs.io 

This episode is available also to WATCH on the Venice Pulse YouTube channel. Many images of Otis and Robert are shown during the visual version of this episode. The YouTube version of this episode also includes a bonus 15+ minute tour Robert gave of his studio space & art. 

Venice Pulse is a podcast focusing on Venice Beach and beyond. It is hosted by Venice residents Sandy Clark and Chuck Whobrey. Sandy has been on the cutting edge of both written and televised journalism for the last 30 years. Her credits include NHK, CBC, ABC, BBC, AMI (various publications), the Daily Mail and the Westside Current. 

Originally from the UK, Chuck was once on the BBC's Newsnight talking about "Ecstasy". Besides that he has no experience whatsoever when it comes to hosting a current affairs type show! 

Intro Music: "Trip" by DJ Nick "Feesch" Wilson 

#animaltesting #rescuedog #animalrights #dogrescue #otis 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

So when we were driving here, my husband said, How do we describe Robert? Is he a dog activist? And I said, Let's not label him yet. I want you to tell everybody how or what how they should see you.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

I am an artist of our world. And um gosh, that's a that's a wonderful question. I have to find my identity very quickly.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Or maybe not. Maybe we can just say you are Otis's dad.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

I'm an artist of our world. And for the longest time, I did bodies of work photographing hum humanity healing. But in more recent years, I've expanded that to raising awareness about animal testing. And that's as soon as Otis came into my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

And what caught my attention when I met you was how beautiful Otis is. And when I started stroking Otis, I noticed his his ear. It's this ear, right? Yeah, I remember. And I I was so baffled by why Otis had tattooed numbers in his ear. And that opened up a lot for me that I didn't even know about. So talk a little bit about um how you came to be Otis's dad and why this is such a timely conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:11

I had always wanted to be an activist for animals somehow, and pretty much the most I ever found myself doing was promoting adoption.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Like adopt, don't shop. And that was a very easy way to raise awareness about a problem that we have with shelters and with breeders.

SPEAKER_00 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

And so I did that, but then I also grew up with beagles. And I remember Oh, you did. I did. And I remember my dad would always say, you know, they do this animal testing on these dogs. And I would hear that, and it sounded terrible, but I don't, you know, I never really took it in. But I knew that there was there was a darkness surrounding that. And Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:07

As a kid you knew that.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yes. And then, but I I didn't really know too much about what that the extent of it.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Or what that looked like, uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Are you cleaning your little?

SPEAKER_02 3:20

And then I uh started to see a little more of it online. And I started following an organization called Beagle Freedom Project. Okay. And my dog had passed away. And try. And after a couple months, I was looking for another dog to foster. Okay. Just because I had a great house for it. It was all set up for a dog. And I just thought, you know, there's dogs out there that really need help. So and then this one just popped up.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Where? On Instagram?

SPEAKER_02 3:58

On Facebook. No. And I commented on it and said something like, I would foster Otis just like that, not really thinking that much about it. I think that might be what I said. Um maybe it was even a little more subtle than that. But they called me the next day. And so I went to go see him at their headquarters in the Valley.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Okay, and what organization That was Beagle Freedom Project. So that's based here in LA?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Beagle Freedom Project. Okay. So you went there.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

So I went there to go meet him. We had a meet and greet. And he came right up to me and with this big head and these big beautiful eyes. And and I just was so taken aback by his majestic energy. And but I wasn't really ready to get a dog. And then I went home to think about it. And I said, okay, bring him over, because they wanted to check my house too.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Right, good.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

And um I said I would foster him. And they they dropped him off. And we sat right here on this couch. And I immediately just knew that this was his final destination because he had been bounced around quite a bit. And what he has been through is just horrific animal testing. His uh rescuers said that um it was one of the worst cases of animal testing that they'd ever witnessed. And you know really? Yeah. I mean he's got holes. He has you can see. I think you mentioned that. You can see that like this this one right here. They drilled into his skull because they did collected data through toxicology tests where I think he was used for the pharmaceutical company to test the effects of drugs, certain drugs.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

It's just in this day and age, with everything we now know, seems so archaic and was sounds so barbaric even back then.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

It is. It is.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

So where was he rescued from and how?

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Well, he was born in New York at Marshall Bioresources.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

He was born in a facility.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

He was born in probably one of the, I would say it was it, it could be the largest uh animal testing breeding facility on planet Earth.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

And what is it called?

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Marshall Bioresources in uh North Rose, New York, which is upstate New York.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

And it's hidden in a small town. Um and and right now they estimate there are 26,000 dogs there. There's also ferrets, pigs, cats, and I don't know what else. But yes, all my God. That will be sold into animal testing.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

That will be sold into animal testing. And do they do animal testing as well?

SPEAKER_02 7:14

They do. Marshall has a lot of uh products that are at Pet Petco. And uh they do testing there as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

So they do?

SPEAKER_02 7:26

They do, but they also sell the dogs to science for anything from tobacco, like whatever it is they're testing.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

And how much are they selling these dogs for?

SPEAKER_02 7:39

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

So Otis is uh he's not a beagle, he's a coon hound, so he's he's probably equivalent to about three beagles. So um they use the larger dogs for different kinds of testing. So they sold him, he ended up going to a laboratory in uh Half Moon Bay area. And the only reason I know that is because um there's data on the one of the photographs that the whistleblower uh provided.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Really?

SPEAKER_02 8:15

And I was able to track it down.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

So yeah, Half Moon Bay is in Northern California.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Near San Francisco.

SPEAKER_00 8:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

And um he was sold there to them, and he was tested on for a year, and then somehow the organization and Beagle Freedom and and people working in between negotiated his freedom. It's very, very rare for dogs not to be euthanized after they're done. And especially the large ones, it's absolutely unheard of because and people I've met that are in the animal testing industry, um anti-animal testing, um, they're they're always shocked to see a dog.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Because they they kill them. They just don't make it.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

They don't make it.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

But it's a very well hidden industry, so nobody knows exactly everything. And I don't know what he was tested for. I'm just assuming.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah. You're but you do you see it. You see the scars.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

I do see the scars on his head, yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

And so there was a And on his body, too. Oh, on his body.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Well, there's photographs of him when he the day he was went to his first foster.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Really?

SPEAKER_02 9:29

And you can see where he he he had scars and his head was shaved.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

His head was shaved.

SPEAKER_02 9:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

I am so shocked that this, you know, that I didn't know about this even sooner. I kind of heard about the Beagle testing and that they freed some. And that was really the extent. And then when they had, you know, when I when I saw the dogs released from Ridgeland Farms, yes, that's when I think a lot of people started becoming more aware. Why has this been a why has this been such a secret for so long? If they're if they're not doing anything horrendous to the animals, that so they say. I mean, again, how can the word uh animal testing and kindness even be used in the same sentence?

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Well, you saw the advertisement that Marshall Bioresources, uh how they present it, that they're that these dogs are are wonder are in wonderful service to humanity to help make hu help evolve science.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

Um And they have a photo though of of a woman walking around.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Well, they're not walking the dogs. They're in cages and they're in their feces, and it's and there's thousands in a room and they're barking all the time, and it's horrific. It's terrific.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So these facilities like Marshall's, is that funded by taxpayer dollars?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

These are, yes. There is there is that, but there's also this is a a private facility. Um, but I I mean testing is funded by the government. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

So what do you want people to know? I mean, you're you're an advocate, obviously, of spreading awareness about this. How do you do that and what do you want people to know?

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Well, it's uh the the first step.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

I'm looking at your hat, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

The first step is to just know that it exists, which is an important step because people have no idea that this is going on, that our best friend dogs are being used. Right now there's 65,000 in the United States alone. I mean, that's not China, Europe. I mean, all over the world they're being used. And then what we try to do is we try to, so that opens the door into the awareness. And then the next step is to try to make kinder choices and only purchase cruelty-free products. Even though he was most likely not part of the product testing, he was pharmaceutical. That's the tangible thing that we can tell people so they can take action and buy things that weren't tested on animals.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

That makes a difference.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

It does.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

I think that's uh important for people to know that that makes a difference, you know, and you gotta be diligent about it. So people can, you know, look on the product and see whether or not it has the what the little bunny on it.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

The bunny, the leaping bunny. Okay so awareness is very important because uh people have to know and they have to feel and be sad about it. And and then we evolve and and into it's spreading that awareness and and actually taking action. Like now the every news outlet in the world, or at least in the Western world that I know of, um did big stories on Ridgeland. That was mainstream.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah. Were you surprised?

SPEAKER_02 13:39

I was not surprised. Um I was happy.

unknown 13:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

You know, even though they didn't get him at all out, it was great for awareness. And it's just the appetizer for what's gonna happen next with the 26,000 dogs. So it's all just beginning.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

And talk a little bit about um i I know that Rid Ridgeland Farms, they are gonna shut down their breeding come July, but are they shutting down like I'm not sure the exact details?

SPEAKER_02 14:18

It's it's not great. It's like I think it was like they have to stop in like over a year or something like that. Okay. And and this uh oh this organization, Wayne, who you follow.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, Wayne from Direct.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Um, they just they wanted to take matters in their own hands, and that's how this whole thing got started, and that it made the news.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Do you get stopped a lot because of because he's handsome? Because he's so handsome.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

We do.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And do you end up usually telling the story?

SPEAKER_02 14:51

I tell everyone that I meet.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

You do?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah, just about. Just about, yeah. And and what's just like I did I told me at Whole Foods.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

At Whole Foods. What's the reaction usually?

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Usually they look at his tattoo and they uh immediately have uh a very haunted look on them, and they reference Auschwitz concentration camp because of the block numbers that are on his ear. And it's startling to people. And then they have no idea. And it's something that you see and you never forget.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Yeah, you never forget.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah, you don't unsee that.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Now, what's interesting is that you actually were in Poland prior to adopting this little guy.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

There's a lot of, yeah. I mean, and I wouldn't. I did visit Auschwitz years ago and it did make a big impact on my life. And I would never, for me, I don't ever compare it because I think it's it's already right there.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

You know?

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

And someone once asked me if I'd like to do a series where we uh really compared and integrated the Holocaust with that, which I think is just completely unnecessary to do.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

And um, because it's already there.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

It's already there.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

It's already there. The information is already there. Well, sometimes your less is more.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Why do you think he came into your life?

SPEAKER_02 16:32

He came into my life for um to to wake me up and to take full responsibility for my my life as a human being and as an artist of this world. And because it's it's such a soberingly real situation that first of all, it's for the longest time I could like for instance the way I eat, I'm plant powered. So vegan. Um because I don't want to harm contribute to any of the exploitation, once you see the suffering and how horrific it is, and that you know, cows cry on their way to their turn in the slaughterhouse, and it's just it's it's incomprehensible. And we become so used to it, it's so normal. And when he came into my life, he was exploited, horribly exploited. And I'd always been moving in that direction of Ahemsa non-harm, but I wasn't fully there yet at all. Okay. And once once I started to be in relationship with Otis, I realized that that I wanted to live clean.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

You know, not preach and and tell everybody else what to do, but for me it was very important to my own personal integrity and to be able to live with myself to not harm.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

To not be part of the problem.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Anything, you know, a pair of Levi's with a leather patch in the back or whatever, you know. You can't unsee it anymore. That's the problem. And everyone that thinks that an organization like PETA's crazy, they're operating from a place where they've seen so much. So what they're doing is actually tame in comparison to what but I know it's shocking to the regul to regular people, and because it's so normalized to exploit animals. But you know, I mean, uh fur used to be in style, yeah. And now it's frowned upon.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

And that's because crazy people protested.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

And a lot of times the media will only cover this type of story if it's crazy or someone's throwing blood or naked and it just gets written off as that's just a crazy protester. How do we keep this story alive?

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Well, I think that an important thing to do, um, you could sign up to get newsletters from uh Wayne's organization, save the Dogs.io.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

IU.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Yes. I think that's it. Savethedogs.io. And that gives you all the information about Bridgeland and about shutting down. We're going to turn our attention to Marshall Bioresources next. Okay. Which I'm hoping that Otis is one of the generals in that fight because he is a survivor, rare survivor of Marshall. And uh I want, you know, he's just it's it's an it's a face that people can relate to. This is the face of animal testing.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

This is the face.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

So you see, Otis, I'm exploiting you once again.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Have there been any leadways with Marshall? Like, are they open to talking?

SPEAKER_02 20:26

I doubt that. It's very much in secret. And I want to point out that the there's a there's uh a group of protesters in the UK that have been camping out at, they're called Camp Beagle, and they've been camping out in front on the side of the road in front of Marshall Bioresources in England. Really? This is a smaller version of the New York one, but they've been there for over four years. They've s set up tents, they've gotten arrested, they've done, but they somehow they're there and they've raised a tremendous amount of awareness.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

That is unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Yeah. Those people are real heroes.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Camp Beagle.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Camp Beagle, yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Okay, so we have to look at that. That is just incredible.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, those people are real heroes because they, you know, they they understood what was happening. They felt what was happening, and then took action.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

And it's everyday people, you know, um, that are taking action.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

People are waking up.

SPEAKER_00 21:30

People are waking up.

SPEAKER_02 21:31

I mean, we can make better choices with you know um the make the shampoos we use, the makeup, everything, the cleaning supplies.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

You've always been, it seems like, you know, with your photography and art, a spiritual person. Like, have you always been so thoughtful and curious?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

No, I don't think so. I think it's a a very it's a long It's an evolution of waking up. It's definitely an evolution of waking up. I feel like like I I think of my younger self as just like a really like a rotten person, a lot of parts of me, you know, and insensitive. And um, but there was always the seed of of goodness, of caring, of caring about life.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

There was that seed there, even though it was covered up by, you know, you wanting to be cool or whatever it was, you know. And um so it's it tak it takes a long time to unravel the the illusion, the the dream of the world, and to really follow your heart and and and live in a place of of integrity and kindness. It takes a very long time.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Do you feel different now, like since Otis has come into your life and that you are conscientious of what you buy and what you eat and the products that you use?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah, it's it's non-negotiable now.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

It used to be that I could go to a Super Bowl party and eat the MMs, but unfortunately now, or fortunately, I just see what happens to cows in the facilities and baby calves being ripped away from their mothers. And I just, it's horrific.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And the thing is that there are alternatives to MMs, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

There sure are.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

How is Otis with other dogs? He's good. Did it take time when you first?

SPEAKER_02 23:48

It took time because he wasn't uh he wasn't socialized.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

And you helped him.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Um, well, and also his previous um fosters, which I'm in touch with all of them. You are they're all on team Otis. Yeah, we're like family. So um, but he did he had some behavioral issues because he wasn't he he was taken away from his his uh litter and mother at a very young age, so and just in a cold steel cage the first year of his life. So the first year of his life being tested on.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

Do you have so it took a while? It took, I'm sure it did. Do you have photos of when Otis first stepped on grass?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I do. I do.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Oh, I'd love to see those.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

And he's with he he was um dropped off to a woman who fostered who had another coon hound named Cooper. Cooper and they were immediately close. And I it could have been the first dog that he ever socialized with. And uh, it's just so sad, you know. But Cooper eventually uh passed away from complications in his digestive system from testing that they did on him with his digestive system.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

So he eventually died young because of that.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

It's it's just my heart is so sad, but when I look at you and Otis, it gets so big because there's it's just there is hope. You know, there is hope. When I was looking at Otis's Instagram page, I couldn't help but notice your Instagram page and all these just amazing photographs that you've taken around the world and in prisons. Talk a little bit about that because that's just so fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Well, I started to photograph yoga many years ago.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

And just because it was such a beautiful visual poetry that where I could express humanity's longing to become better at life, like because of the reaching. It was just, it felt like it was a very uh it was it I just like I like the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, and just had this energy about it where I could tell this incredibly positive story about humanity healing. And then one thing led to another, and that was just those portfolios were on the beach, just of everyday people. And they were beautiful, but one thing led to another, and I ended up photographing in people doing yoga in prisons.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 26:58

But not just prisons, the military. I mean, it just it all started first responders, police officers, firefighters, doctors, everyday people, Maasai warriors, um, children's homes all over the world, and just and it started to become this extraordinary story of humanity in pursuit of cultivating tools to be be able to deal with this difficult life. And so that's what I do.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

You know, I was looking at some of the photos in the prison with um some of the men there. I mean the emotion and the feeling. Talk a little bit about that experience.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

The the people I work with who are incarcerated, they're some of my favorite models because they, first of all, they appreciate it so much being seen. One of the that's the main theme of my work is never look down on anybody. And to when we see each other with respect, we feel seen. And so that's what I do with my work. And the guys and the women in prisons really appreciate being paid attention to and then focusing on what they're doing that's beautiful. And because that's that's just what a photograph is, it's an it's an idea. And I try to choose wonderful ideas. And then the more that idea becomes is seen by the culture and felt by the culture, if you can make powerful photographs that evoke deep emotions, then eventually it can become that idea can become normalized. So that's what I try to do with the camera.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

It's really interesting that I can look at an inmate and he's got tattoos all over his face, and I'm looking at his humanness and and I have so much compassion and connection because I I see his heart.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah, the sincerity.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

The sincerity.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Talk talk about like when you went to San Quentin, yeah?

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Many times.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

What do you do? Show up with your camera? I mean, how does that work?

SPEAKER_02 29:45

Well, you go in with Prison Yoga Project.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Okay, it's called Prison Yoga Project.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

That's one of the projects I go with. Yeah. And um, and they teach yoga, trauma-informed yoga to individuals inside the prison. There's classes. And when I go, I bring a camera, obviously, and just make a body of work.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Celebrating the good that's going on in the world and healing inside the prison system is an incredible idea. And so what I try to do is spread the news with because nothing spreads the news more fiercely than photographs.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

You're right.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

So that's what I do.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

How long have you been a photographer for?

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Since I was 14, and I'm 56 now.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

And do you remember your first camera?

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Like I do.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

I was uh I went to boarding school for a year in ninth grade. Okay. And my dad dropped me off, and he surprised me with a camera, like a Pentex camera that you put film in and wound it up and all that. Um gosh, most people don't even know what that is. So put a visual in. So I uh right. So I so he gave me the camera, and I did, I remember that I asked him what I was supposed to like. I just casually said, well, what am I gonna, what do I take pictures of? That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

And then he just casually said, I don't know, anything that you love.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Anything that you love. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

But I remembered that because that really is probably the only piece of advice that stayed with me about photography all my life.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Did you take lessons?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Uh well, I took a class at the boarding school. I was so bad at it, though.

SPEAKER_00 31:49

Really?

SPEAKER_02 31:50

But oh yeah. I was I was terrible at it. I just was very clumsy with photography and all art. Um but really oh yeah. Nothing came naturally to me. Nothing. But you know what? I had a desire. I had I think that what happened was ultimately what happened was, and this might be hard for some people to understand, but my heart was broken for the world, and I needed something to, I needed a language to make sense of things. Well, I didn't know it at the time, but looking back, there was a lot of desperation that drove me to wanting to be to speak the language of art. So I learned it.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

Were you photographing things that you loved?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

No, I mean a little bit. I was just doing assignments for the most part. Okay. And I but I I got lucky a couple of times. And what happened was I would I would get lucky and be excited about a picture I made.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

And and then I eventually learned how to repeat that.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

How do you repeat that?

SPEAKER_02 33:10

I mean, it seems like you just copy yourself and little bits here, what worked. So I started to formulate a language for being able to make cool pictures. But really, okay. But barely. It took a long time. And then I went in tenth grade, I was a little bit better at it. Okay. And then I just kept getting better at it.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 33:34

But it took a long time and a whole hell of a lot of effort. And and then there was a period of time where I just drew for uh just obsessively drew pictures and learned how to draw, which was not natural to me at all. And then I wanted to paint and sculpt and and none of it came naturally to me. None of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

And then I eventually I went back to photography, which I started to be able to speak the language.