Diamond Defense Podcast: Ep. 06 – Dating Parables and Red Flags

What do a race car driver, a wolf man, and a maybe–sex-cult recruiter have in common? They each taught a hard-earned lesson in intuition, boundaries, and the courage to walk away. Co-host Kellie turns three wild dating tales — Race Car Driver Man, Wolf Man, and Possible Sex Cult Recruiter Guy — into modern parables on red flags, boundaries, and self-trust. With co-host Lisa, they explore how paying attention and setting boundaries can help keep you safe — with humor, vulnerability, and a little courage thrown in.

NSFW: sexually explicit content, profanity

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Show Notes
Co-Host and Co-Producer: Lisa
Co-Host and Co-Producer: Kellie

Special Thanks
Ann Cobb, Kelley Ogden

Music

Music courtesy of Melodie Music.
Melodie Music Subscription: Pro Plan, Lifetime


Title: Fighter; Composer: Christy Panchal
https://melod.ie/track-details/3300-fighter

Title: Sneaking Around Composer: Andy Scott
https://melod.ie/track-details/1115-sneaking-around 

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Transcript

Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter, storming the desert…

Kellie: So, I looked around and the first thing that I saw after all of that was a box set of Cards Against Humanity. So, I said, “Hey, you wanna play Cards Against Humanity?” One: That's a sucky game to play with just two people. It's no fun with just two people, let alone somebody who thinks they're a wolf and is mad 'cause they can't see your tits.

Lisa: Welcome to the Diamond Defense Podcast. Uh, so that was a familiar voice at the top there. I am so excited for today's episode because as you just heard, Kellie is not just our co-host today. She’s, our storyteller. 

Kellie: No pressure.

Lisa: Talk to us about, um, what you're gonna be sharing with us today, Kellie. I'm… I'm so excited. 

Kellie: So, as an adult human in the world, I have sought human connection, be it romantic, physical, what have you. And I've done a lot of dating, and I have a lot of dating stories, and I know I'm not alone in that. So, I've made a lot of mistakes in just in the world, but I've also made a lot of mistakes as a dating human.

Kellie: And I know that these are not new mistakes. I know other people have made these mistakes, so I'm gonna share stories, um, about said mistakes, but that also highlight I think, common threads in these scenarios with certain kinds of people that you may encounter in the dating world. And the real goal is not to publicly shame myself because I've done that privately enough for myself, but hopefully someone out there can learn from said mistakes and forego the pitfalls of these kind of modern day not fairytale scenarios that I have.

Kellie: And I always use nicknames for the people I encounter in the dating world. And so, these three nicknames kind of not fairytales, are, uh, Race Car Driver Man, Wolf Man, and uh Possible Sex Cult Recruiter Man. And these are kind of modern-day parables maybe for, you know what the fuck. 

Lisa: Because we need as many modern-day parables for what the fuck as we can get. Um– 

Kellie: Right. I mean– 

Lisa: You know, when we talked about what episodes we were gonna do, right. And we knew that, um, we were gonna do a dating episode, we knew that that was, that was your stage. This is your arena. I've been married for like 25 years almost now, so I know that some of the first words, my wife and I spoke to each other when we first got together 25 years ago was, “Game over.” We were very excited just not to have to be in the dating world anymore. And uh, and we knew that you had some stories to tell. I know you got a lot of stories to tell, but we're narrowing it down to three today. Is that right? 

Kellie: Absolutely. The trifecta of what not to let happen or not to let yourself maybe get into. And I wanna reframe that 'cause I don't wanna victim blame even myself, even though I know there's things that I can do better, and I do do better. I said doodoo. But the trifecta of, again, what the fuck? And I always tell people I used to date for a love connection, you know, and sometimes physical touch. Now if I do date, honestly, it's for the story because I feel like that's the only thing I get out of it– 

Lisa: You know? And... and if it's not gonna pay off in a love connection, at least it pays off in a really interesting story. 

Kellie: Yeah. And I even in one of the stories, there is this moment where something is happening and I'll call it out, but I'm like, oh, this is gonna make a great story, but he also may kill me. So, you know what's gonna happen first?

Lisa: Like, it's that great line, uh, that great Margaret Atwood... Um, you know, “Men are afraid women are going to laugh at them, and women are afraid men are going to kill them.” 

Kellie: Hey, laugh at me. I would much rather have that than some of the things men have done to me. 

Lisa: Well, yes, and I think that's the gist of it, right? Is that to men, some men, a woman laughing at them is akin to, uh, to feeling like they've been killed. I don't know. It was like their ego gets killed. I don't– because of that, we like, we get to be here, and we get to be talking about all this and, um. I'm super glad just to be here with you and just to be able to talk about this with each other.

Lisa: I think that's another thing we always talk about on this podcast is like, talk story with your ladies, right? We commiserate, we learn from each other. Um, it just… it makes me feel like I'm not alone, and I love that. And, um, in the same way, I think that hearing you tell your stories today is gonna help maybe some other women go, hey, I've dealt with this bullshit too, and I'm not alone.

Kellie: Well, yeah, you're not alone. Again, it's such a human, I think, experience to wanna seek out connection. 

Lisa: Right? 

Kellie: Again, some people think it's– or not even think for them it is emotional connection, mental connection, friendship, romantic, sexual, what have you. I don't think there's anything wrong in seeking that out with consenting individuals who are adults. But even in that arena, there are things that you can do to protect yourself and signals that you can pay attention to that maybe can help you prevent having bad things happen in your realm. 

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's the red flags that we talk a lot about. Um, many of them are gonna come up in your stories, you know, what were the red flags for each one of these situations? Was it something that was avoidable or something that you ended up getting yourself into that you couldn't foresee and then you had to figure out how to get yourself out of. I know most of these stories. I know a lot about these stories 'cause just as friends you've told us about them, but I know there's a lot I don't know as well. So, um, so let's just, let's start by sort of framing this in terms of these three spe–. Like we said, you've got a lot of stories you could tell why these three stories? 

Kellie: I think these three are one, they're just really kind of momentous stories. One of them has a little bit of dark humor in it, in just the way that I cope with it. And I will preface; I use humor as a human being a lot just to kind of cope with things. I love humor, so I will throw in humor into maybe some dark situations just to kind of get through it. And I think that's a great tactic if that works for you. It works for me. In these experiences... in one moment, I could have a very traumatic experience, and at the same time, I'm finding the humor as a way to get through it. 

Lisa: Absolutely. And we have to... we have to. 

Kellie: Uh, for these three stories. I know a common theme that I kind of pre talked about with you is I think there was a lot of grooming going on in each one of these encounters. There was a lot of grooming going on.

Kellie: In hindsight, I figured out that that's what was happening and for whatever reason, whether it's my own insecurities or how I was brought up or just how... how I was on a given Tuesday at three o'clock, whatever, I didn't listen to the red flags of things moving too fast, this person being, uh, aggressive in a way that ended up kind of being grooming and pushing my boundaries and sometimes crossing them.

Lisa: Quick question. I know that these stories take place over a number of years. 

Kellie: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa: Is there a difference between how, uh, you know, the dating world was from one end to the other in terms of how you're meeting people, how, where you're connecting with people, that sort of stuff? 

Kellie: You know, in the history of my dating life, definitely there is a difference because I remember dating pre-internet, so that was a completely different animal, um, with some less good features because in dating in the digital age as much as... as things are somewhat superficial and they move extremely fast, and people are more emboldened to say things now because they've lived behind a screen so much of their daily lives.

Kellie: But you also have access to research tools because of the internet. I met all of these three people online, so there's not too much difference in what those kinds of interactions were. And a similar thing is I ended up researching all of them on the internet as much as I could. One after the fact more so. These three individuals... they're within the past five years. 

Lisa: Kellie, I think the time is now. 

Kellie: Girl. 

Lisa: I wanna hear your stories. Can we jump in? 

Kellie: Absolutely. Let's dive in. So, the first story I wanna tell is about Race Car Driver Man. I like to call him that because one, he was, he said he was. And I did Google research him enough to kind of verify that that was probably true. So, I'm like, okay, this is somebody who's telling me the truth so far about who they are. So, we went on a couple public dates– 

Lisa: Good. 

Kellie: –before I invited him over to my home. So, the first date... it was in public. I let people know where I'm going. I will send intel on said person, hey, this is their pers– this person's name. This is what they look like. This is where I'm going. 

Lisa: Fan–fucking fantastic. 

Kellie: So, I send that to at least one trusted friend so they know where I'm going. So, I did that on the first date, and at the first date... it was a public place. We went to a café, and one thing that I'm proud that I remembered to do is at one point when I had to go use the restroom, I didn't wanna leave my drink so, I took it with me, and I remember him going, “Whoa, are you leaving? Why are you taking your drink?” And I said, “Oh no, you know, don't worry about it. I'm just gonna go get a refill.” I lied to him. I didn't want him to know. I'm like, hey, I don't trust you to not, you know, roofie me, so I'm just gonna take my beverage with me.

Lisa: Nice job. Excellent job. 

Kellie: So, we had that first date and I'm like, this is a handsome man. He's kind of interesting. He was a race car driver. That's kind of cool. How often do you get to do that? So, I met him again and on the second date, a restaurant, we were having dinner, and he moved extremely fast. I think that was probably just in his DNA. And he just– a red flag for me now, and it's kind of evident through all these three stories, is when somebody moves extremely fast in affection or love bombing, or being highly sexually charged really, really fast – I don't wanna shame that if you're both consenting to that, but I know for this individual and actually all the individuals, I said, “Hey, I have a certain pace and it's not as fast as you are wanting to go.” 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And I do remember saying that to him on this second date. We went and walked outside the restaurant, sat down by a fountain in a public space, and he was immediately very handsy, very affectionate.

Kellie: And I kept saying, “You know... I think I just need to go at a slower pace. You're a race car driver. I... I ride a tricycle with, you know, 10 wheels on it in the slow lane.” So, that's just kind of how I'm moving. And I remember him kind of, I don't want, I don't know what the really great verb is... He was bullying me or pressuring me, but he kept saying things like, “Oh, come on, you only live once. You're an adult woman. I'm a man. Don't you want to let a man know how you feel about him by kissing him back and letting him kiss your neck?” And so, it was just me constantly saying, “Hey, you know, let's just kind of slow it down.” 

Lisa: I am letting you know how I feel about you by telling you that this is the pace I would like to go at.

Kellie: Yeah. So again, listeners, yeah, I made a mistake. I saw him again. And this time I thought, you know, I'm not gonna lie, I was attracted to him. And I think a lot of times... I know I'm probably not the only person who does this. I second guess myself. I'm like, well, maybe this is the one. Maybe this is what should be happening so I can have this connection. And maybe it's not that bad. Maybe I'm imagining things. 

Lisa: You're gaslighting yourself. 

Kellie: Gaslighting myself. And you know, I have had a few friends and people just tell me, “Well, you've been single your whole adult life...” I've never been married. 
Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And they go, “Well, I think that's because you sabotage yourself.”

Lisa: Hmm. 

Kellie: And so, then I start, you know, maybe gaslighting myself. Maybe I'm sabotaging it. Maybe I should give this person a chance. Maybe I'm imagining things. Maybe this is my chance. 

Lisa: Not helpful language. I'll just say. 

Kellie: Well, I want people to know that I know that when I hear these stories come out of my own mouth. So, if you are feeling like that when you're listening to it, don't shame yourself. Just listen to yourself and maybe change how you view what you agree to– 

Lisa: Trust your gut and fuck everything else. 

Kellie: Exactly. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: Maybe not literally. 

Lisa: Trust your gut if you don't wanna fuck everything else. How about that?

Kellie: Right. Whatever. So, I did invite him over and yada yada yada. I'm gonna just yada yada yada a few things. 

Lisa: I mean, Elaine did it. You can do it. 

Kellie: Elaine did it. I can do it. So, we yada yada’d it and we get to the yada yada. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Um, and like you do just lie back, and you concentrate so things can happen. And in the midst of concentrating on trying to make things happen, you maybe zone out because you're also trying to protect yourself in some kind of way.

Kellie: And maybe during said yada yada and zoning out in concentration, you're, you know, looking at the ceiling going, “Oh, look at that cobweb, maybe I have to clear that out. How is it there?” And you're kind of letting the other person do the thing because you're also just kind of maybe getting through it because it's not going the way you maybe planned.

Kellie: But then at some point, something clicks... and it did for me. And in this moment of concentration and zoning out and going, “Am I really here? Is this really happening? What is he doing down there?” I noticed a light. And I'm like, “Where the fuck is that light coming from?” And I looked down, and his cell phone light is on, aimed between my legs. 

Lisa: Motherfucker.

Kellie: And Lisa, it was one of the most surreal moments I've ever had because there's a million things going on at the same time. It's sensory overload because you're, you're naked with this human being– 

Lisa: As vulnerable as you can possibly be. 

Kellie: Right? And you're also going, “Oh, okay, is this gonna end anytime soon?” Because it's not maybe going the way that you hoped it would go. And then you realize this person is doing something that you didn't agree to because you weren't asked. So, I noticed the light, and I sat up and said, “What is that? What the fuck is that?” And he immediately jumped up off the bed. I said, “I wanna see your phone.” And I asked him, “Were you, were you filming me? Were you taking my picture?” I said, “Were you filming my vagina? What was going on down there? Why do you have your light on?” 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: He got defensive. He kept fumbling with his phone, doing that kind of trope that you see in the movies going, “Oh, I... I don't know what you're talking about.” And while he's fumbling with his phone, I repeated, “I want to see your phone. Let me see your phone.” He said something like, “What are you talking about? I don't know what you're talking about.” And then he got mad at me. One minute, he doesn't know what I'm talking about and he's denying it. And the next he's saying, “Oh, I... I can't believe you don't trust me enough and think that I would do something like that.” So, he was gaslighting me then, too. 

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kellie: And the whole time I am sitting here naked with this person again, maybe my fault that I've only known for three dates, and this happened. And I was like, what the fuck? Am I really just one of these women now that's just had consent taken away from them? Maybe it was just a photograph, but I didn't get to participate in that decision.

Lisa: Just a photograph, Kellie? Just a photograph, girl! 

Kellie: Or a video. Who knows? Maybe I'm in 4– 

Lisa: Yeah! 

Kellie: 4... 4K. I don’t know. 

Lisa: Re– re fucking-gardless whether it's a photograph or a video. He was obviously doing something without your consent. And he knew it. 

Kellie: And he knew it. And then he pretended he didn't know it. And then he got belligerent about it, and then he blamed me. And it just became so awkward. And it was one of the most awkward situations. 'Cause I kept trying to wrap my head around. I'm like, one second this is happening. And the next second, here I am. And all I can remember about how that kind of encounter ended was he wanted to leave, but he wanted to take a shower first. I'm thinking, yeah, 'cause you're a dirty fucking asshole. Fine, go take a shower. But he insisted that I sit in the bathroom with him while he took his shower. 

Lisa: Oh, no. 

Kellie: And at the time I thought, well that's just fucking weird. And this is kind of a common thread. I'm like, “Well, I can't wait to tell people this 'cause this is weird on top of just the horrible thing that happened to me.” But that's just weird. And then I thought, “Oh, I think I know why he's doing that.” I think he knew he fucked up and he's in a home that's not his. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And you know, when you hurt something that's alive, you're afraid it might hurt you back. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: So, I felt like he wanted to take the shower for whatever reason. Maybe also just to clean the DNA, who fucking knows. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: But he didn't want me to be out of his sight because he didn't know what I might be doing while he was taking said shower. 

Lisa: Including going through his phone. 

Kellie: Including going through his phone. And I know he also had a laptop that he had brought with him.

Lisa: Hmm. 

Kellie: So, I, you know, complied. 'Cause I thought, okay, whatever's gonna get you out of here. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: Um, so I sat on the toilet while he took a fucking shower in my condo, um, after, you know, breaking all my boundaries. And then he left. I never saw him again after that. He did text me several times after. He tried to see me again. 

Lisa: Hmm.

Kellie: And I wouldn't. And at one point, I can't remember verbatim what was said, but I finally said, “You know, look, you did this thing. We both know you did this thing, and I really hope you can find whatever integrity you may have in you to delete whatever you took of me off of your phone and not share it with anyone.” And he said something akin to not denying it, but something to kind of make it like we were on equal footing that I shouldn't maybe be a mean person. And that we both did things that were wrong, and I'm trying to think what, I don't know what the fuck I did. 

Lisa: No, this guy's a piece of shit. 

Kellie: Yes, yes. Established. 

Lisa: Yeah. And he is trying to deflect, uh, his own wrongdoing by gaslighting you, uh, and it's all bullshit. 

Kellie: All fucking bullshit. So needless to say, I never dated another race car driver.

Lisa: Yeah, I don't blame you. Um, I feel like that that would be a triggering thing for you at this point, uh, to do that. And I am sure that there, that there are some wonderful non-misogynistic, uh, race car drivers out there who would be a dream to date. 

Kellie: You know, I'm not worried about it 'cause I'm not looking for them.

Lisa: Exactly. Exactly. And this guy kind of ruined you for him, so that's his fault. 
Kellie: He did. And the one thing I will say again... I... I made mistakes in letting somebody into my home too fast. And that will echo in the other story, but I am proud that in the moment of something so surreal and so violating happening, that I did say, “What the fuck are you doing?”

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: “Don't do that. That's not okay.”

Lisa: You stood up and you asserted your boundary, and you let him know that he was not any longer going to be able to cross that boundary. And I think that this, as I listen to the progression of the story, you know, from an outside perspective, right? Which is hard to see sometimes when you are in the middle of it and you're trying to just have some sort of communication, relationship, what have you, with this other human being. You're trying to navigate all that. But you can see immediately he was pushing boundaries and trying to see how far he could go in pushing those boundaries and when you would assert yourself and if you would assert yourself and how far he could go before you asserted yourself. And, um, he was testing you the whole time to see if you were gonna allow that to happen, and when you sort of immediately were like, what the fuck is happening right now? I'm sure that he understood immediately that this, this was not, you were not playing, and you were not gonna continue to allow him to cross your boundaries. That was a stopping point. That was the, I'm done with you now. This has gone too far. He's a predator. 

Kellie: Speaking of predators. 

Lisa: Before we get into the second story, I do wanna just say, once again, super proud of you and you should be super proud of yourself for how you handled that situation. Even the complying with sitting in the bathroom while he took a shower. You know, that was your instincts telling you that this is what I need to do in order to get him the fuck out my house. And that's what you did. And you kept yourself safe, and you kept your head about you. I know that there's shame for you in that story, and I just wanna emphasize the fact that you did what you needed to do to get yourself out of that situation.

Kellie: I'm just mad at myself that I did at least invite this person in. And I always wonder, had I not done that, would that have happened? And the answer to me is yes, it would've at some point it would've progressed if it was the 20th date. And that's the thing, I wanna drive home. I don't care, again, if it was the first time that we met, ask permission to do things. 

Lisa: It was the red flags, right? It was that you saw that there were red flags and you tried to convince yourself that your instincts were not correct or accurate or “I know, but.” “I'm making too much out of this. Maybe I'm sabotaging myself.” We all do that. We all ignore instincts at times, but when you realize that there was a situation, you asserted yourself and uh, and you got 'em out, that was race car driver lot to be learned, lot to be learned there. Crazy story. You got a really interesting story out of the experience for whatever it was worth. How about we move into your second story? 

Kellie: So, this second tale segues from, you know, not so magical fast carriage rides with race car driver to a Tinder Wolf Man. I met this individual on Tinder. 

Lisa: Okay. 

Kellie: You know, swipe culture that we're in. We started texting within the app, then we started texting on the phone. Then we progressed to phone calls. Uh, so there was some buildup before we met in person. And even in that buildup, there were some red flags that I ignored that I hope when listeners hear them, they're like, “Kellie, what were you fucking thinking? Don't do that.” So, they can not do that themselves. So, we progressed to talking on the phone and he started sharing with me that he... he found himself to be, and he identified as a wolf. 

Lisa: Hmm. 

Kellie: And I thought, “Oh, well, that's creative.” Okay, okay, that's different. And I thought, “Why?”

Lisa: Uhhuh? That would be my first question.

Kellie: Um, and he just likened himself to a predator when it comes to love. 

Lisa: Wow. 

Kellie: Right? And, but he spun it in a way that made it sound like, you know, I am the big bad wolf, but I'm gonna protect you, which that was a signal right there to me, which I... I think, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, I find to be kind of a tactic in abusers where they will use an identity or an action or words or whatever to be abusive and then backend that immediately with, “I love you. You're so sweet, you're so beautiful, I wanna take care of you.” And he would say that. “I am a predator, I'm a big bad wolf. I'm looking for soft little sheep and lambs to, you know, devour, but I'm also gonna love you.” He would say things like that. 

Lisa: Yeah. So, that's disturbing on so many different levels. It's the dependency, it's that, um, it's that gaslighting that... that says, “You know, you need me to protect you.” Like, “Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm a big bad wolf, but I'm a big bad wolf for you. Right. I'm gonna protect you.” And that immediately institutes a paradigm wherein you're dependent on him for something. 

Kellie: I'm also somebody who, rightly or wrongly, likes to see how far things go, how weird things can be, because again, I like the story. “Are you going to continue with this? Is this something you do behind doors?” I... “Okay, Mr. Wolf Man.” Um, so he kind of kept doing that and, you know, maybe I fed into it a little bit. I am a painter, an artist, and he loved, he loves wolves. So, I did paint a wolf picture, and I think I actually ended up giving it to him on our first date. So, we talked on the phone a lot and he did a lot of those kinds of things where he would say something, um, kind of off and then backend it with something completely normal and sweet and kind. He then progressed to getting very sexually charged in his language, and at one point even told me some extremely sexual graphic vulgar things that he wanted to do to me. And then say, “I wanna do these things to you, and then afterwards, I wanna stroke your hair, and take care of you, and love you.”

Lisa: So, there's a very real tactic that is, it's, um, intertwining. So basically, what it is, is they'll tell you something that's either off color, pushing a boundary, um, something that to you may be perceived as negativity in terms of a predatory thought or action. But when they immediately follow that up with something that is a positive feeling to you that turns on your dopamine, that serotonin, that you know, the love drug, it intertwines those two things in your brain. And so, what ends up happening is that the more they do that, and the more they intertwine the dark with the love, the more that when the dark comes up again, your brain makes a connection to a positive feeling. So, they end up being able to do it and progress it to the point where they don't have to do anything positive afterwards.

Kellie: I picked up on those kinds of tactics after the fact. In the middle of it, I just thought, “Well, that's weird. You're just weird.” Again, “Maybe I'm over imagining it. Maybe this is what everything everybody goes through,” or whatever. So, I met him in person for our first date. We went to dinner, and I don't usually talk about personal appearance because sometimes it doesn't matter. But I will talk about... he was 6’5”, 6’6”, very tall. 

Lisa: Wow. 

Kellie: You know me, Lisa. But for people who don't know me, I'm 5’1” on a windy day. I am not tall. So, there is a power dynamic there in just the height differential. And he was a big person. So, we met for dinner and things went really well. It was a great dinner.

Kellie: He was very kind. He was charming. He was, um. Very enamored of me and he said as much. I thought, and I still do think again, he was overly affectionate, overly uh, enamored for somebody he had just met in person for the first time. I personally don't believe in love at first sight. I believe in lust at first sight. I believe in obsession at first sight. But love, that's a way more complicated simmering thing for me personally. 

Lisa: Right. And now he's doing some love bombing as well. 

Kellie: He's doing some love bombing. And I'm also, “Okay. You know, he's not hurting me. This is, you know, it's somebody to talk to.” And, and I had given him that painting I do remember. Um, and so I think he took that as reciprocity in affection. We had this dinner, and he walked me to my car, and he did give me a, you know, peck on the mouth, kind of a kiss. Nothing invasive or anything. Well, it went so well, and I thought, “Okay, you know, I'll see this person again.” And again, whether wrongly or rightly, people can make their own judgements on what's right for them – I did invite him to a second date the next night at my home. Now, I did let people know, “Hey, so-and-so's coming over to my home. This is where they're gonna be. So, if they don't, you know, hear from me by a certain time, you know, come send out the National Guard or whatever, you have to save me.” So, he comes over, brings a bottle of wine, and I don't know what it was, Lisa, but as soon as maybe 60 seconds of him walking in my door, uh, it just fell off, and I didn't feel right.

Kellie: And something just maybe primal kicked inside me, clicked inside me. I don't want to go through with anything with this person. 

Lisa: Mm. 

Kellie: And I think that telegraphed. I... I know it telegraphed to him because almost immediately he started pouting that I had changed. He started calling out, “You're not being as friendly or flirty as you were last night. What's going on?” Um, I started using tactics to not be verbally or emotionally or even physically intimate with him. “Hey, you wanna watch tv? Let's watch his nature program. Hey, there's wolves.” Which maybe was not a great idea to point out. And he asked, “What's going on? What's going on?” I asked, “Hey, you wanna play cards?”

Kellie: And he said, “No.” He just kept it, just kept building. He started getting more aggressive. And then at one point he said, his voice got a little loud. He said, “You know what? Look at me. Look at me. What am I wearing?” Two things are happening. I cannot wait to tell my friends this. And two, the fuck is he talking about?

Kellie: And I go, “What are you wearing?” I said, “You're wearing clothes.” He was wearing jeans, black shoes, and like a soft white, just very kind of soft crew neck kind of sweater. He goes, “Yeah, I'm wearing clothes, but what kind of clothes am I wearing?” Very dominant, very demanding, and aggressive. And I thought, “Oh, fuck!”

Kellie: I said, “What kind of clothes? You're, you're wearing jeans and like a, a, a soft sweater.” He said something like, “Exactly, I'm wearing my soft clothes. I'm wearing my soft sheep's clothing. I'm wearing my wolf in sheep's clothing because I'm a wolf and I'm here to get into your space because you're my prey, and I wanted you to feel safe because of what I was wearing.”

Lisa: So, he's basically validating every instinct that you're having about him in this moment. 

Kellie: I got goosebumps now remembering, right? So, okay. I kind of let slide the I'm a wolf kind of thing. 'Cause I thought, oh, you're just trying to be flirty or be interesting. You really do think you're a motherfucking wolf.

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: And you really do think that I am the lamb that you're going to eat tonight, and you’re mad. He's a big fucking dude. “What if he gets even angrier? What? Oh, no!” So, then I immediately thought, I need to be nice to this person. And I started apologizing. I said, “Look, I know this is probably hard for you. I don't know what is going on with me.” I made it about me. I said, “I know that it looks like I've changed and I probably have, and I don't know why. I don’t know why. And I'm so sorry if I've led you on, this is my fault.” 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: “You're not wrong to notice that something's going on.” And he just wouldn't let it go. He kept getting angrier. He– quote unquote, he said, “I don't fucking understand. I know other men have seen your tits. Why don't I get to?” 

Lisa: Wow. 

Kellie: And he was, he was mad. He was aggressive about it. And I... I do remember saying, I said, “Well, just because I invited you over, there was no guarantee or even invitation that something physical was gonna happen. You know that, right?” He just wouldn't let go of that I had changed. And he was upset about that, and I kept apologizing saying, “I'm so sorry.” I go, “Do you wanna do something else while you're here?” And then Lisa, I... what the fuck came over me? I was looking around my... my condo for anything to use to distract him because wolf nature programs was not the best idea because... So I looked around and the first thing that I saw after all of that was a box set of Cards Against Humanity. So, I said, “Hey, you wanna play Cards Against Humanity?” 

Lisa: Oh, my God. 

Kellie: I said, “You wanna play Cards Against Humanity?” And one, that's a sucky game to play with just two people. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: It's no fun with just two people. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Let alone somebody who thinks they're a wolf and is mad 'cause they can't see your tits.

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And speaking of that, if you've ever played Cards Against Humanity, you know the content on it is... is aggressive, is irreverent, is sometimes sexual, is sometimes violent. It's just sometimes all the things that might not be the best things to come up in an already highly charged situation. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. With a sexual predator. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kellie: With a 6’5”– 

Lisa: But again, you're doing the best you can in this moment. You're beta-ing his alpha. You're trying to make him feel comfortable. You're trying to do what you can to... to... honestly, to stay alive. 

Kellie: It scares me sometimes when I hear that out loud, because yes, that's probably what was happening. In the moment. I just thought, “Oh, I just need to get him out.” But you're right to think about – it could have gone so much more worse. 

Lisa: And you knew that, and there was a part of you that deeply knew that, and that is why you went into compliance, I think, in my opinion. 

Kellie: I don't doubt you. So, I know people are wondering, did you play Cards Against Humanity? Yes. Yes, we did. We sat there at my dining room table – two people who, one is a self-professed wolf, the other one is just trying to get this wolf out of her home and we're playing Cards Against Humanity. And the whole time he was still angry and pouting. He's like, “I just know that I'm never gonna see you after this, and you changed and I don't know, fuck, what's wrong with you? Why would you do this? Other men have gotten to be with you and see you and...” dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And I, I finally said, I go, and this was going on, mind you, Lisa, he was in my home for almost two hours, and this all started within moments of him coming in, so, it took me about two hours to get him to leave. And at one point, during atrocious Cards Against Humanity Game, I said, “You know, look, you're clearly upset and I am – I'm the one who's caused this. I know I'm not gonna change how I feel, and this is causing you distress. I think it's probably best for you to leave so you're not struggling anymore, and you're not as upset as you are because nothing's gonna change. And I think maybe it's just best for both of us if you go.” 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. And how did he react to that? 

Kellie: I don't remember what finally was the catalyst for him to decide to go. But I knew when he left, because of where I lived, it was a gated community. And because of the rules of that community, he wasn't allowed to park his... his truck in the community. So, he had to park on the street, which meant he had to go out a pedestrian gate. And because of where I lived, it was kind of convoluted. It was labyrinth of how to get in and out on foot. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And I knew that and I wanted to make sure he was out. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: So, I said, “I will have to walk you to the pedestrian gate.” 'Cause I wanted to know he was on the other side of the gate after he left. 

Lisa: You wanted to watch him walk out of that gate. Yes. 

Kellie: And so, I walked him to the pedestrian gate and another moment of me just kind of doing whatever I could to be okay... 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: He said, “I know I'm never gonna see you again and I don't understand what's wrong with you.” He goes, “But you know what? You could at least kiss me, kiss me goodbye.” And it... it wasn't a question, it was, it was a demand. He goes, “And, you know, kiss me like you mean it.” So, I did kiss him. I didn't kiss him like I meant it 'cause I didn't. But I went through like the action of kissing him because I'm like, “Just get on the other side of the fucking gate, dude. Just get on the other side of the fucking gate.” 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: So, I kissed him and he left and I ran back to my apartment, and I immediately called a friend and said, “Oh my fucking God, a wolf was just in my apartment.” 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: And he badgered me and pestered me on texting and I think a few phone calls for a few days after that. I ended up blocking him on all kind of platforms and devices that I could figure out how to do. 

Lisa: Good.

Kellie: And I haven't heard from him since. 

Lisa: Good. Wow. I've heard parts of that story. I've never heard the entire story. I am proud of you again and always for asserting your boundaries. And this is so common. There's that initial mistrust of your own instincts. You know, in both stories, there were instincts immediately that said, eh, I, you know, this might be a red flag. And you, uh, you don't trust yourself, but you get to a point where you absolutely 100% trust yourself and you know that this is wrong, and you know that you don't want any part of it, and you have no problem asserting yourself when that's the case. And I think that is the important takeaway from both of these stories so far. 

Kellie: Thank you. And in hindsight, I wish I could tell him when he said, “Well, other men have seen your tits. Why can't I?” I'm like, “Yeah, other men have like taken pictures of me without my consent. You’re not even getting that close, motherfucker.”

Lisa: Well, I'm sorry, but no one owes you shit. Uh, when you invited him over, you didn't say, come over to my house so you can see my tits. You didn't say, come on over, so that I can allow you to be sexually aggressive towards me in a way that I don't invite or consent to. I don't wanna get too far into this, but it's this incel community. This I am entitled to fuck any woman I want. And how dare they not want that? This like I am entitled to that is so insane to me. 

Kellie: And I'm glad you said that. 'Cause that does remind me. And I remember now that I actually told him before he came over, I said, “Look...” I did set the parameters. I go, “I move slow. So, we're not going to have anything physical happen.” So, I did tell him that before. So, when he was being aggressive and pouty about not being able to see my tits, I said, “Look, I told you before you were coming over here that nothing was gonna happen. So, I don't understand what you're upset about in that arena right now.”

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And he just didn't... it just didn't register for him. 

Lisa: Because he didn't believe you, because he thought that, you know, Wolf Man would just make it happen. Someone not wanting to have a sexual encounter with you... um, maybe it's because you're being a fucking Wolf Man. Like maybe it has anything to do with how you are presenting, with how you are communicating with the energy you are putting forth. Maybe I would want to show you my tits if you were actually like a decent human being, uh, who interacted with me in that way, but you're not, you're talking about being a fucking predator and that doesn't make me wanna open up and be vulnerable to you. Now I'm on a soapbox. Lemme get down. 

Kellie: No, I like your soapbox. I... I... I am embracing your rage for me. 

Lisa: Thank you. 

Kellie: No, thank you. 

Lisa: Um, of course, of course. Do we wanna get into the third story, because I'm very partial to this one. 

Kellie: So, I met him on a dating app, and we started messaging within the app, and then we went outside of the app and messaging, and we used WhatsApp a lot and much like, definitely Wolf Man, he started getting sexually charged and explicit very fast. And I'm not saying that that's necessarily wrong, as long as both people agreed to it. But when it just comes outta left field, you know, it's that old trope of all of a sudden somebody sends you a dick pic or they send you porn. You're like, “What? What, what? Why?” 

Lisa: Whoa. Didn't ask for the dick pic. Right? Yeah. 

Kellie: Now he himself did not do that, but he was starting to send me very graphic links to porn. I am not a prude. I'm just gonna say that out there. I like sex. I am not a prude. What I don't like is assuming that I'm ready to have certain conversations about certain topics unless you actually even meet me in person first, and we kind of maybe are on the same wavelength.

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: So, I think there's just certain things that should happen in an order. So, we had not met yet in person. He was sending me videos, sending me voice chats. This person had progressed, at least in my experience, for how I was being communicated with, and it was a lot more personal, which maybe was a tactic. I don’t know. It also might just be a symptom of advancing technology, I think, and messaging as well. To be fair. 

Lisa: Sending you the porn stuff was just, again, it was a boundary pushing. It was... he was trying to figure out where your boundaries were and what he could do before you were gonna assert yourself.

Kellie: Absolutely. Hindsight is such a beautiful kind of thing. 

Lisa: Isn't it? 

Kellie: Why can't we have hindsight first? 

Lisa: Right? 

Kellie: Why can't it just be first sight? 

Lisa: Right? Exactly. 

Kellie: Um, so this was around the time just before COVID shut everything down. So, it was 2019 when I met this person online and I was supposed to go on an international trip to celebrate my birthday. And not necessarily because of COVID, but other circumstances happened where I was not able to go to Europe like I had planned. And I was super bummed about it. So, I'm like, what can I do to celebrate my birthday – staying local. So, I decided to get myself a hotel room in my favorite big city in the area and went to a really fancy hotel.

Kellie: And this person lived in that city, which was not far away from where I live now. And I messaged that person, I'm like, “Hey, I am actually gonna be in your area celebrating my birthday. I have reservations for dinner. Do you wanna join me?” 

Lisa: Nice. 

Kellie: And this person was like, “Absolutely.” I said, “Okay, I'll meet you at the restaurant.” He was like, “How about I pick you up?” Now, that maybe is the only super big mistake that I made in giving him access to me outside of, you know, giving him my telephone number, too. But I said, “Hey, that's great.” I thought, “This is great. I'm in my favorite city in the world, this handsome person who I thought was a handsome person. Interesting. Very smart.”

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Was gonna pick me up and you know, I was gonna go to my favorite restaurant in this city and have dinner. So, he did. He picked me up. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Got in his car. We went out to the restaurant, and he was really interesting. He had told me, you know, in our chats before that he was part of how he described it and what I can remember him describing, he was part of a collective, I think that was the word he kept using and he lived in like a communal kind of living situation. And I thought, “Okay, that's interesting.” And he goes, “Yeah, it's really great. We really... It's about building women up and really servicing women.” And at one point in our conversations, and I know I'm backtracking a little bit, but he had sent me a link to classes that they have. Oh, immediately a trigger. And it cost money. I'm like, “Oh, this guy's just trying to get me to pay for classes,” at this weird whatever thing he's in. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And for people who don't know me, I am super gullible when it comes to love and people telling me all the pretty things and taking advantage of me, maybe physically, emotionally, mentally, but motherfucker, if you ask me for money. 

Lisa: That's it. That's the line. 

Kellie: Yeah, I'm done. 

Lisa: That's the line. 

Kellie: I'm good. So, I'm like, okay. No, no, no, no, no. So, I told him that early on, so I wanted to throw that in there. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: So, at this dinner, he starts talking about this organization again. 

Lisa: Now I'm gonna be the one to backtrack just because I wanna say a quick word. The picking you up, that's a tactic as well. It's a control mechanism. Now I get to A, I get to see where you are, so I know where you're staying, and B, I get to control how you get to where you're going and how and whether or not you get back. So, ladies, if you can make your own way to a first, second, or third date without being picked up, you just have more control over the situation.

Kellie: And if for some reason you do have them pick you up, there are services like Lyft and Uber. So, we're at dinner and it's interesting, and at one point he tells me a dinner that he's celibate and I'm like, oh, okay, that's new. That's interesting. 

Lisa: What's with all the porn then? Okay. 

Kellie: I mean, does celibate mean that you don't self-gratify? I don't know. I don't know what the celibacy rules are, so maybe, I don't know. Do you boo? Literally, do you. He would say things, quote unquote. At one point he looked at me, and he would just stare at me and it would get really quiet and awkward. And I'm like, “What? What's going on?” I go– 

Lisa: mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And he is like, “I'm thinking you look like a fucking playground.”

Lisa: Wow. 

Kellie: And in the moment, I'm not gonna lie, it sounded very sexy. 

Lisa: Sure. 

Kellie: But then nothing else happened. And then he just stared at me. I'm like, okay, this, this is weird. This is really weird. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: He's celibate, so he's not gonna try to do anything with me. I thought if he's telling me the truth. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: And I did think that if he's telling me the truth, then I'm probably okay. So, he takes me back to my hotel, and he’s driving back. And this is when it clicked though for me. I know you're like all these other things didn't click for you. He was talking about himself in the third person. Well, when he called himself out in the third person, he used a different version of his name that he had never used before with me.

Lisa: Oh? 

Kellie: So, say, this is not his name, but say his name was Michael. And he's like, “And then I thought, hey, Mike, why would you do that?” And I remember asking him, I go, “Why did you just call yourself that?” I go, “You've never called yourself that before.” And he fumbled for a response. And that just stuck in my head. And I thought, “I think you just slipped up. I don't know if that's your real name now.” And now mind you, I will tell you that I did Google him. I Googled this little group that he said he was a part of. What I did find about him and this little group was that – what I could find is that they were really into giving women orgasms.

Lisa: That's not a bad thing. 

Kellie: If there were more people concerned about giving women orgasms consensually, the world would probably be a better place. 

Lisa: 100%. 

Kellie: I just had dinner with a really interesting, odd, but interesting person who didn't try to touch me, didn't try to get physical with me, didn't try to hurt me, so I... I never felt unsafe. So, he dropped me off at my hotel. Nothing happened. Didn't try to put a hand on me, you know, nothing. He lived up to the celibacy claims. None of what happened outside of, when he called himself a different version of his name... 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Struck me as odd outside of, okay, this person's in like an orgasm collective.

Lisa: Okay. 

Kellie: So, when I got home from that overnight trip, I Googled a little more aggressively. And this time, Lisa? 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: This time, I found a blog that talked about the group that he was a part of. 

Lisa: Okay. 

Kellie: And they named him. They had a photograph of him in this blog. And the story that this blog was telling was that he was frequently on dating apps to recruit women for this quote unquote sex cult.

Lisa: Wow. 

Kellie: And a lot of the aims of the cult was to get women to give money for these classes. And if I remember correctly, there was some talk about sometimes sexual predation and forced orgasms and stuff like that, if I remember... remembering correctly. And here I was thinking, “Are you fucking kidding me? I had so-so lemon pasta with a celibate, maybe sex cult recruiter.” 

Lisa: I… I mean, you did get a good story out of it, and you did not get recruited into said sex cult. So, those are good things. 

Kellie: No, and... and he did not get any of my money. 

Lisa: Good. Now, did you have any other interactions with him? 

Kellie: I got so freaked out, Lisa, because of the allegations in this blog. I blocked him on every device and every avenue of communication that I... that I could find. I did reach out to the writer of this blog and I said, “Hey...”

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: “Thank you for doing this. Um, I don't know how much of this is true, but I actually just had an interaction with this person and the methods that he uses to connect with women, I experienced, I met him on a dating app. Um, so he's still out here doing this activity, and this is what happened to me. And because of your blog, I have information that I didn't have before to keep myself safer.” I don't have the patience for a sex cult. Am I ashamed of letting people into my home faster than I should have? I'm not ashamed, and I don't know that there's actually any rule. I'm mad that people took advantage of my opening my space and access to me and abused that privilege.

Kellie: That said, if somebody's listening, you know, be careful about who you let in your home. Make sure people know where you are, what you're doing, who you're doing it with. And, uh, be safe because there are motherfucking wolves who drive fast and might try to recruit you into a cult. 

Lisa: You're one of the smartest fucking people I know. And you do see through people, and when you get to a certain point where you go, oh no, this is some bullshit happening right now. You will call them out on it. You will assert your boundaries and then you will do whatever you need to do to get out of that situation. And you, uh, pay attention when somebody calls themself a different name than they had been using with you, and it sticks in your craw and you... you're a dog and you hunt it.

Lisa: And we could all take a lesson from that. I hear you say like, you know, looking for a love connection and I can, you know, also maybe sex. There's no shame in wanting to hook up with somebody. There's no shame in wanting a relationship. It's human connection. It's wired in our DNA. We all want that, and that is why predators know that they can take advantage of exploiting somebody's good nature.

Lisa: I'm so glad that you learn. Knowing and learning more and more to trust your gut, I think has been a... a common theme as you've progressed in being a part of these situations and not trusting your gut and then looking back with right, that 20/20 hindsight and going, holy fuck, I should have, uh, paid attention to this thing way back here.

Lisa: You're not alone and that's why we're here and that's why. I am so grateful to you, first of all, for opening up, for being vulnerable, for telling these stories. You're helping other women and you're helping us all learn, and you're also saying, hey, like, you know, we all fall into these traps. This is... this is why predators exist, because they count on this. I'm very proud of you. 

Kellie: Thank you. You know, listeners, do your research. Don't not look for a connection if that's what you want but do your research. Google can be your friend. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Um, there are things that you can find out about people, and I at the very least check out their phone numbers, check out their names. One individual not in the story mix. You know, when they gave me their name, they didn't have any social media presence or internet footprint, and that just speaks volumes right there. If you can't find somebody on the internet in this digital age, they're probably lying to you about their name. So, press on that. You know, and ever since you know, these three stories, especially, uh, maybe sex cult recruiter guy, I... if I ever go out with somebody in that kind of encounter, I fucking Google research and I find out everything I can about them. 

Lisa: What in terms of that hindsight, just one thing about each story that maybe you wish you would have paid more attention to at the beginning?

Kellie: Uh, well, I think in all three of them for sure is the highly charged, sexual aggressive nature out of the gate. I do recall in all three of them saying, “Hey, I kind of move a little bit slower.” I also tell romantic partners or potential romantic partners I'm kind of like a small woodland creature. If you move too fast, I am going to bolt, it's going to scare me. I don't like it. Don't do that. All three of them did. And so if I'm gonna tell anybody one thing from all of that outside of do your research on who you're going with and let people know where you're going and who you're doing it with, is if they come on super strong coming in hot, especially after you've said, “Hey, I like a different pace,” um, that's just a huge red flag that one, they're not listening to you, they don't care about your boundaries, and they're just doing what they want. And they're also probably testing your boundaries to see how much they can get away with. 

Lisa: Yeah. Huge red flag. Absolutely. I do just wanna call out a couple of things just 'cause they're super important, um, to pay attention to letting pe– if you were gonna be with somebody that you A, are not normally with on a regular basis, and B... and or B, in a place you are not normally at on a regular basis and therefore, people would not know to look for you with that person or in that place should God forbid anything happen or you weren't where you're supposed to be or you come up missing, um, you gotta let people know. So, the thing you do where you text people and say, “Hey, this is who I'm going with, this is where I'm gonna be, this is what I expect to be home.” Um, you know, do that with your friends. I know that there are some apps now, uh, that will do that. And if you don't feel like there's someone in your life that you can or want to share that information with, write a note and put it on– somewhere in your home that is prominent that someone would see it. The first place the police are going to look is in your home, and then they are going to see that note. 

Kellie: Not even if you're dating somebody. 'Cause when I used to live by myself in a big city and I would just go for walks; I would put a note on the back of my door. 'Cause I'd heard about this somewhere.

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: Just said, “Hey, I'm going out for a walk in this kind of area. I left at this time.” And I would do that every time in case, even if I just fell on a hiking trail or something somewhere. 

Lisa: Yes, absolutely. Anything, anything could happen. And then at least there's a starting place for people to start looking for you.

Kellie: Good tip. 

Lisa: I just wanna thank you for your sharing, for your vulnerability, for helping, um, helping other women to learn from your experiences. 

Kellie: You're welcome. Thank you for trusting me to share my weird stories. 

Lisa: They're great stories. You, you know, you went through all that. At least you got some good stories out of it.

Kellie: I do just wanna tell people, do your research, be careful. Stick up for yourself. Recognize these kind of tactics. 

Lisa: If something doesn't feel right or good, then it's not. 

Kellie: Mm-hmm. And you get to say no. 

Lisa: And you get to say no. And you get to say no at any fucking time. And you don't owe anybody anything. 

Kellie: Fucking a, Wolf Man.

Lisa: Right. Race Car Driver. 

Kellie: Maybe Sex Cult Recruiter Guy. 

Lisa: You are, you've, you've learned from it. And that's what's important. I think we've talked a lot about some different red flags, different tips, different tricks. You know the boundaries, the love bombing, the intertwining, the... somebody tells you that they are a wolf and they wanna be a predator towards you. All red flags. 

Kellie: The one thing I want people to walk away with is don't be embarrassed or ashamed that you one, want connection and that you seek it out. Don't be embarrassed or ashamed if bad things happen in that process. Just make sure that you're being as careful as you can. You're vetting the people that you can, how you can, and you come out one, alive and two, just in a better spot than you were before you were in it.

Lisa: Trust your instincts. Always, always, always trust your instincts. And also, no shame if you don't fucking want that. If you wanna pull yourself out of the dating world for a minute, if you wanna, you know, seek connection with people who aren't intimate romantic partners and you don't want that, and somebody tries to shame you for that. No, you, you get to seek or not seek connection at your own will. You are the master of your own destiny. Don't let anybody fucking shame you for anything. 

Kellie: Thank you. 

Lisa: Absolutely. So, Kellie, thank you again, um, for telling your stories, for sharing your experiences with us. You know, if any of that helps just one person from dealing with a similar situation or a worse situation, um, I think it's worth us being here. It's worth telling these stories. If anyone out there has stories that they think could help someone stay safer, stay out of danger, we wanna hear it. That's what we're here for. That's what we're all about. We get to learn from each other and, um, so please feel free to reach out, send it our way. We're here for all of it.

Kellie: Absolutely. And Lisa tagging onto that, every good cautionary tale, listeners, it travels best when it's whispered from one villager to the next in our little fairytale universe. If this episode lit a lantern for you, spoke to you, share it so someone else can see the wolves in quotes coming, follow, subscribe, and leave us a review. It's what we need for more people to find our village of diamonds, and that includes you. And remember, not every stranger is a prince or a princess. And as for kissing frogs, well Lisa, that's another defense class entirely. 

Lisa: Absolutely. That's another podcast and another... and another class. Absolutely. All right, everybody, thanks so much for listening and having your ears on this podcast. We appreciate all of you. We can't wait to share more with you, so stay safe out there. 

Kellie: Watch out for motherfuckers and wolves. 

Lisa: Shine on, Diamonds. 

Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter, storming the desert…