Diamond Defense Podcast: Ep. 09 – Mid-Season Recap

Eight episodes in, we pause to listen back—to the moments when instinct spoke, boundaries mattered, and survival took shape in real time. This mid-season recap revisits discussions of sexual assault, coercive control, and personal safety; nothing is graphic, but some content may be activating.

Self Defense Resources

• Diamond Defense
  • https://diamonddefense.com/resources
• Domestic Violence Hotline (in the United States)
  • 1-800-799-SAFE (1-800-799-7233)
  • https://www.thehotline.org/
• Relationships Australia Victoria RAV — What is Coercive Control? Article
  • https://www.relationshipsvictoria.org.au/news/what-is-coercive-control/

Sexual Assault Resources

• National Sexual Assault Hotline – 800-656-4673
  • https://rainn.org/help-and-healing/hotline/

💎Learn more at https://diamonddefense.com/

💎Have a story you want to share on the podcast? Email us at DiamondDefensePodcast@gmail.com 

💎If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review it — help everyone shine stronger!

💎Diamond Defense YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@diamonddefense321 

Show Notes

Co-Host and Co-Producer: Lisa
Co-Host and Co-Producer: Kellie

Special Thanks

Ann Cobb, Kelley Ogden, Aniko, Jessica, Martha, Karin

Music

• Music courtesy of Melodie Music.
  • Melodie Music Subscription: Pro Plan, Lifetime

Title: Fighter; Artist: Christy Panchal Composers: Klotz Christina Elyse Panchal (ASCAP: 1020882000) 50%, Carrozza Gregory Joseph (BMI: 00528390441) 50%

https://melod.ie/track-details/3300-fighter 

Title: Introspection; Artist: Travis A. King Composers: King Travis Adam (APRA: 00400117039) 100%

https://melod.ie/track-details/2459-introspection 

💎Discover more at https://diamonddefense.com/

Transcript

Kellie: Before we begin, a quick note for listeners: this Midseason recap revisits moments from our first eight episodes, including discussions of sexual assault, coercive control, and other threats to personal safety. While nothing is described graphically, some content may be activating. Please take care of yourself and feel free to pause or skip ahead as needed. Resources for support are available in our show notes. As always, you’re in control of how and when you listen. 

Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter, storming the desert…

Aniko: I went out to my car, and all of a sudden, behind me was a man with a knife, and I just froze. And he said to me, “I don’t wanna hurt you. Give me all your money.” And I had not a penny on me.

Kelley: I knew I could outrun them, but my hope was that by screaming that in the middle of a dark street, I’ve brought attention.

Jessica: So, my fight or flight was definitely in full beast mode at this point when we got to the next platform, and that was definitely gonna be the train that took us to our home station. And I thought, if I don’t end this now, he’s going to follow us all the way home.

Martha: He just turned around and started ransacking other things, going through other drawers and things, and walking around my apartment, and he tried to cut the phone cord with that knife, and I said, “No, no, you can just grab the clip and unplug those now.” And he did.

Lisa: If we, God forbid, find ourselves in a situation where we think that our survival could be compromised by resistance to an attacker, and we have to go into compliance in order to keep ourselves alive, because that is the only thing that matters at the end of the day, is our own… own survival.

Kellie: So, I looked around, and the first thing that I saw after all of that was a box set of Cards Against Humanity. So, I said, “Hey, you wanna play Cards Against Humanity?” One, that’s a sucky game to play with just two people. It’s no fun with just two people, let alone somebody who thinks they’re a wolf and is mad ‘cause they can’t see your tits.

Lisa: So, it’s just a matter of discovering that, right? You don’t have to change who you are to fit into a self-defense space. It’s about discovering that you already have everything that you need to belong here in your own power. 

Karin: I’ve been in a co– coercive control relationship for the past nine years. I’ve been out for the last eight-ish months, and yeah, my life is so much better now.

Kellie: Welcome back to the Diamond Defense Podcast. I’m Kellie.

Lisa: And I’m Lisa.

Kellie: Hey, listeners, we are about halfway through the first run of episodes, and we realized something. If you’re just joining us or if you’ve been listening from the beginning, and thank you for that. There is a lot here. So today we wanted to pause and reflect on key moments from each episode and talk about what’s starting to connect across all of them.

Lisa: We have covered a lot so far, uh, so we thought it was worth it. Just to stop for a second, talk about what we’ve learned. Reflect on some of the patterns that we’re seeing and how our guests have had to be their own hero out there. Patterns that tell their own story, themes that help us learn from each other.

Kellie: And Lisa, we’ve learned a lot during the process of creating this podcast. Um, so it’s been kind of exciting to share that space with you. 

Lisa: You as well. It’s been, um, like, I don’t know what I thought we were doing when we started this, but this has been just a joyous ride. Um, I know we’re talking about some really dark stuff. We have a lot of fun talking about the dark stuff so that we can learn all the lessons from it. Um, so yeah, this has been a wonderful ride with you so far. 

Kellie: Hey, and the ride continues. Uh, and listeners at the heart of this podcast is your personal safety through storytelling and expert insight. Lisa is one of our favorite experts. She is the expert as far as I’m concerned. And Lisa, can you ground us, uh, especially for anyone new who is joining with this episode? 

Lisa: Absolutely. Eh… you know, I think every episode is gonna explore moments big and small when personal safety confronts a conflict, or it requires action. Right? And those are the moments that are so pivotal that when we talk about these things, when we share these things with each other, we all get an opportunity to benefit from that. So, you know, some of these stories we’ve talked about, uh, our guests, they only have seconds. Or minutes to the side and take action. And sometimes, like in our last episode, right, it can take years to find a way to safety as… as Karin talked about. But through each episode, we have gotten to witness what can happen when we find our voice, or we use our power to protect and defend ourselves. And boy, have we witnessed some very powerful moments. 

Kellie: We really have, and I think, Lisa, my favorite, well, I have many favorite parts, but one of my favorite parts in the storytelling episodes at least, is hearing from a different woman who has an experience that they share with us, where even if it’s not something that’s happened to us, we can learn from it, discover something about how we might address that if it does happen to us. And you always offer some insight into what worked, what can work, what might work differently. So, I really love that opportunity through the storytelling episodes that we have. But I also love just the straight-up expert episodes that we have, so there’s a mix for everyone here. I really love that part of our podcast. 

Lisa: I do, too. I think being able to sort of be witness to, um, these incredible moments that our storytellers have gone through, you know, it, um, it… it sort of takes… it sort of takes it off of them sort of having to like live under the pressure of these, these experiences to some degree and it… and it dilutes it and it allows all of us to benefit from that experience, from what they learned, from what they, you know, did or didn’t do, or any advice that they have for us as someone who has been, um, existing under those circumstances. And, you know, it’s like we talk about, right, storytelling is, is a form of self-defense. And so, I love that aspect of, uh, the storyteller episodes that we’ve had. You know, and then we- what we found necessary, I think right, is to unpack that in some, in some of our other episodes, you know, the… um, the act of compliance episode, the demystifying self-defense training episode. Like some of those, uh, experiences are so powerful, and there’s so much there that, y ou know, we have to kind of delve into that territory, into a little bit of a deeper dive, and, um, and I think it all just goes into helping us all to… to be our own heroes.

Kellie: I like the deeper dives. The waters are safe here on this podcast for everybody to come and participate. And at the top of the episode, listeners, you heard clips from all of our previous episodes thus far, and now we’re gonna kind of talk about the highlights of each episode that really struck a chord for us. And we hope that you go– if you’ve not listened to them, go listen to them after this episode if you’re new to us here and participate. And Lisa, the first episode, our inaugural one was, uh, the theme titled was Awareness. 

Lisa: You know, we said it at the top of that episode. Awareness is everything. There’s a reason that that was our first episode. There’s a reason that…  that is the first. Of the quote, unquote, three things that we all have to be aware of. Um, so sorry. Apparently, Sammy has something that he would like to add to this conversation, so, um, you know, we’ll let… we’ll let him chime in every once in a while as well. 

Kellie: And for listeners, Sammy is one of your cats, correct?

Lisa: He is. Sammy is the oldest of the two. Willie is the youngest of the two. And, um, yeah, they’re… they’re bro bros. And quite a pair, and they have a lot to say. 

Kellie: Yeah, they do. 

Lisa: About a lot of things. They just want us to know. So, um, right now I think he’s saying a lot about his food bowl, uh, that’s not as full as he would like it to be.

Kellie: Well, he’s aware that he… he’s aware of how hungry he is, and he has the confidence. I’m foretelling a little bit. He has the confidence to ask for it. 

Lisa: Exactly. Exactly. Now here’s the thing. He does have lots of… nothing if not confidence for that cat. Uh, but the bowl has food in it, and it has plenty of food in it. It is just not as full as he would like it to be. 

Kellie: I get that. I get that with Sammy, metaphorically. Even my bowl metaphorically is not as full as I would like it to be. 

Lisa: That’s right. That’s right. Um, all right. Thank you for your input, sir. 

Kellie: So, awareness… we… Sammy is aware… as much as Sammy is aware, that he would like more food; we can all be aware of what our surroundings are and how to maintain our safety when we do that.

Lisa: Yeah. Awareness is.. is our first line of defense, right? It’s our fir… it’s… it’s the first thing that allows us to react. It’s the first thing that increases the reaction time, and increasing our reaction time is kind of the first principle of self-defense. Um, and so. You know, it’s not about living in fear. And I have a lot of people say, you know, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna always be thinking about, you know, what’s going on around me or be afraid that something might happen. And… and as we talked about in the episode, it’s not about expecting danger or… or living in fear, it’s about arming yourself with information, right? We keep our chin up, we keep our eyes out, we notice things. We are curious. About our environment, because when we do that, A: It’s just kind of an interesting activity, um, when we’re out and about to truly be curious about our environment and to notice things even if we’re traversing, um, terrain that we traverse on a regular basis. What’s a new thing that you can notice? About… about your surroundings. Um, so we’ve gotta be curious about our environment. We talked, I, I mean, Aniko was an amazing storyteller on that front. Um, all three of her stories involved what level of awareness she had and how that did or didn’t serve her well.

Aniko: And I just thought to myself, that is really weird. I bet he’s in there. Waiting for me to walk by, gonna come up behind me. That’s what was going through my mind. And I literally stood there, and I just stood there. And I just waited. And sure enough, the amount of time that it would’ve taken me to walk up there, he came out. 

Lisa: We started awareness because it is, it is the… the beginning and the end, um, is about keeping our awareness up. 

Kellie: Nice. That was a really great episode. I mean, they’re all great. I’m gonna sound like a mama with all of her children. Um, but it was our first episode, so there’s something special about a first episode and the stories that Aniko shared, and they’re very, you know, compelling stories just to listen to from a storytelling aspect. So, we really like that. 

Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah. She was a wonderful guest to kick us off. 

Kellie: Yeah. And you know who else was a wonderful guest, our second guest, who has all the confidence in the world and was in the episode of Confidence. Tell us… tell us about that guest in that… that episode. 

Lisa: Right. Well, that, I mean, no bias, but maybe my favorite guest, um, you know, my wife, Kelley, talked to us about how confidence can fuel us. You know, about how confidence is an important tool in our arsenal. Um, it can fuel anger… anger can fuel confidence. Um, both of those things can help us allow for an escape. You know, we talked about predators being cowards who don’t wanna deal with a confident person who may fight back hard, uh, in their defense. And confidence can be a deterrent for being targeted for attack. And uh, I think it’s really important for us to remember that you don’t have to be the most confident person in the world to carry yourself confidently. And I think to me, in terms of that episode and… and the great, um, experience that we all got to learn from that Kelley had on that… on that very dark street in Chicago. 

Kelley: Because the neighborhood is pretty dead at this point. Nobody’s out, nobody’s about, there are no cars on the street. I feel a little trapped on the sidewalk because I am between cars, which can provide, um, a wall in terms of visibility. And then, I’m also on the other side of me are alcoves and doorways that are very easy places to get pulled into. And again, not be visible. So, since there were no cars on the street and it was quiet, uh, there were high-rises kind of all around me, uh, high-rise apartment buildings. And so instead of. Into the middle of the street. 

Lisa: Confidence doesn’t have to live in us for us to be able to portray it. It does live in her. 

Kellie: Mm-hmm. It does. 

Lisa: I will say that’s her wife. It does live in her, but you know, we can all fake it till we make it. Ladies, we can all roll those shoulders back, pop that chin up. Just a tiny slight tightening to that core, keeping our eyes out, um, that just change in our posture. That portrayal of confidence can be the thing that makes the difference between someone saying, yeah, she’s my target, or nah, I’m not gonna mess with that. 

Kellie: Hell yeah. Fucking a. And you know, one of my favorite parts of that episode is she has a line in it, and we’re definitely gonna play that clip at some point in this episode. It, to me, it is the perfect line. It’s something that I think would be a great t-shirt or a bumper sticker or, you know what I mean? You’ll hear it, listeners, and you’ll know what I’m talking about. But it’s such a good episode as far as the lessons that we learned about being confident if you… even if it’s faking it till you make it, but it’s also just compelling stories, like they’re very dramatic. 

Kelley: I allow myself my little monster to exist and thrive within me when I need it. To me, that’s confidence in myself. I love myself enough to have a dark side of me that I know I can let out if and when I need to, to protect myself. 

Lisa: And her ability to indulge that part of herself, um, that will fight like hell, you know, her little monster. Right? Uh, I think that that is a really important takeaway for all of us.

Kellie: It is important takeaway and always knowing where you’re going, whether you’re telling a story or you’re out in the streets. And speaking of knowing where you’re going, Lisa. The third episode is Destination, and we talk with a mutual friend of ours, Jessica, about some time she spent in Paris, France. 

Lisa: Yeah, I– those were some really interesting situations that she was involved in there, especially as a stranger in a strange land. Right. And not knowing the… the language as well as she would’ve liked to, and… um, trying to figure out how to take care of herself in those moments when not speaking the native language and actually doing a really fine job of it. Um, you know, and…  and the destination playing a role in both of those, uh, stories, whether it was that she didn’t want someone to know what her destination was. Obviously, you know, the… the first story where… where she and her husband were, were heading home and were being followed, uh, they very clearly had a destination. They were very clearly on their way somewhere. And what was important in that story was that, that the person following them not know what that destination was, right. So, I think that was a really important aspect of that and the way that she used her voice as a weapon. 

Jessica: And I finally just wheeled around on him ‘cause he had followed us all the way up to the platform to wait for the train. And he was standing right next to me, and I finally just yelled at him, "Plus loin!," which means farther away in French. Uh, and so I, and I really like pointed really hard, and I flung my arm out just saying, "Plus loin! Plus loin!," just screaming at him and he like went chalk white and fled. 

Lisa: Oh, my gosh. Like… it was brilliant the way that she was able to diffuse that and… and that her instincts told her to do that. And I will just say, just to, to bring it back, right. It was because she had, uh, a situational awareness that allowed her to observe that they were being followed. And it was because she… she mustered up the confidence to be able to use her voice as a weapon that allowed her to get out of that situation. Um, and then, you know, the second story she told about being in the shops, uh, you know, was because she very clearly did not have a destination that she was followed again, um, and was able to utilize, um, that awareness and that confidence to be able to… to lose them. Um, but her awareness in that, that… that she felt, because she didn’t have a clear destination, because she wasn’t clearly checking in with someone, because, you know, there wasn’t obviously someone waiting for her or expecting her, um, that she wouldn’t be missed quickly. You know, her ability to observe that about her circumstance, that that was part of why she felt she was targeted. 

Kellie: Absolutely. One of the things I learned that I think the most from that episode was… I’ve traveled a little bit outside of this country. And I know a little bit of Spanish, and I’m learning French. J’apprends le français.

Lisa: Mm. 

Kellie: But what that episode highlighted for me is to be aware enough to know how to ask for help in places that you’re not familiar with. 

Lisa: Yes. 

Kellie: Whether that’s because you need to understand a different language and you don’t. Or maybe it’s just a geographic location that you’re not familiar with and you just kind of need to know how to keep your bearings straight so you can get help or… or help yourself. And that’s something that I had not necessarily thought about always… is maintaining my safety in unfamiliar locations. 

Lisa: Absolutely. And it’s something that, you know, I think a lot of us go into things and, and we’re not… we’re not thinking. About that potential danger level, um, surrounding that, you know, um, but it is important. It is important for people around you to think that you’ve got somewhere to go and someone to see. And that if anything were to happen to you… you will be missed quickly. 

Kellie: Yeah. Yeah. Motherfuckers, people are gonna miss me, so watch out! I dunno if Liam Neeson’s gonna come for you, but somebody’s gonna come.

Lisa: That’s right. 

Kellie: Come for you. 

Lisa: It’s going get complicated in some way, shape, or form, which is what they do not want. 

Kellie: So, whether you’re using a different tool to keep yourself safe, whatever that is, if it’s awareness, using your voice, or maybe even distraction, which leads into the next episode, Lisa, uh, about distraction techniques to keep, uh, Martha safe in her situation. Tell us about that. 

Lisa: This was a tough episode to… to produce. Um, it was a, it was a cha– it was hard to listen to, I guess is… I’ll put it that way, to listen to her tell that story, um, and to understand how fucking scary that situation was for her. Um, and then to listen to her talk about all the ways in which she was able to shift things, to… to use those distraction techniques, to shift his plan, to change her circumstance, to ask for what she needed, to tell him, what she wanted, to… you know, all of those things that she did and engaging with the threat. Because her instincts told her that it, it was safe to do so and that that’s what she should do. Um, you know. Those are the things that in those moments when we don’t feel like we have control, we don’t feel like we have any power, um, we actually do. And we can use that control, we can use that little bit of power that we have with our voice and our brains, um, to shift our circumstances.

Martha: He carried me into the living room, sort of pushed me into the living room, went through my purse, tried to put a coat over my head so I wouldn’t see him, and I said, “Please don’t. I have claustrophobia, and I would freak out.” Which is kind of true. And I told him, “I’m not wearing my contact lenses, so I wouldn’t even know what you look like, and I promise not to look at you.” Fortunately, he took my word, and he didn’t put the code over my head. 

Lisa: You know, distraction techniques are anything that, that changes up their plan. Because right when predators go into things, like they have an idea of how they’re going to… of how they’re going to approach whatever it is that they’re trying to do, um, how they’re going to bring their plan to fruition and how they’re gonna get outta that. There is generally a through line for them of this is what I’m gonna do and this is what I’m gonna, how I’m gonna leave. And so, anything we can do that… that fucks up that plan, that shifts our… that can shift our circumstances because then. We have a little bit of power and control, then we’ve got them, you know, on their heels, and then they’re having to think in real time to try and figure out how they’re gonna adjust their plan in order to fit these new circumstances that we have created. So, distraction techniques or anything that shift that, man, that’s a super, super powerful tool in our arsenal. And I think all of the… the tales that Martha told us, exemplify that immaculately. 

Kellie: Absolutely. And listeners, when you listen to that episode, just a little bit of a trigger warning. It does involve attempted sexual assault, and we have resources on our website and in the show notes for every episode, should you need to get help in any of those situations. So, I just kind of wanted to call that out. Um, it’s a great episode, and you give us lots of great, um, unpacking, if you will, on how to deal with… with that kind of a situation. 

Lisa: Yeah. Yeah, we… we were very fortunate to be able to… to have Martha and that she was open enough to share all of that with us. 

Kellie: Yeah. Thank you, Martha. If you’re listening to this one, and I think one of the tactics she also used in that episode, which segues us into the next episode, Active Compliance. There were parts of her story where she actively complied to keep herself safe, correct? 

Lisa: Uh, her… her entire first story was active compliance, and that’s… that’s why we did that episode because, you know, we finished, we finished the… the fourth episode, the distraction techniques with Martha. Sort of listening back over that episode and… and listening to her talk about all the different things that she did, I just thought, my God, that’s just the exemplification of successive active compliance, and we need to do a whole episode on active compliance. And so... 

Kellie: Yeah. And did we ever, so, and… and I know that I learned something, the alert system, you talk about the ALERT system in that episode.

Lisa: Yeah. The ALERT System for active compliance. Right. Sometimes we just need a mnemonic because our brains are gonna potentially peace out on us, um, when we feel like we’re under threat and we need something quick and easy as a reference point that we can use to remember all of the jobs that we have to do if we find ourselves in a situation where we feel like our survival would be put at risk by resisting an attack. Then we go into active compliance. And active compliance, right, is just a way to think about having to comply with a situation that both will help, can help us stay alive, stay out of panic and escape, uh, and can also, on the other hand, and, and super importantly, help to catch the motherfucker afterwards. And so, um, the active compliance system that I created, the mnemonic is ALERT, A-L-E-R-T. And I’m just gonna talk about… real quick what each of those letters stand for. Just kinda remind us what our jobs are if we find ourselves in active compliance. 

So, the A is we’re Alive, right? First, most important job, we gotta keep ourselves alive. We do that by staying out of panic, and we stay outta panic by focusing on our breath and making our exhales twice. As long as our inhales is a way to reset our Olympic system, it’s a way to calm ourselves so that we can stay out of panic, so that we can keep thinking. Okay, so that’s the A. 

The L is to Learn. We have to learn things about our attacker. We’ve gotta gather information by turning on all six of our senses and, um, locking all of that information in our memory. What do we see from him top to bottom? What does he look like? What do our… what does our… our, uh, environment look like? Uh, observing everything we can see, locking that in our memory.

What do we hear? What does he sound like? If we had to do a voice idea of him, could we do that? If we don’t have access to our site since what are we hearing in our environment? And really noting that and locking that into our memory banks, uh, do we hear, you know, children playing, dogs barking, construction sounds, what have you, can tell us something about where we are. Um. You know, all of the different senses that we have, and not least importantly, are that sixth sense. You know, what sense do we get of our attacker? Why he’s doing what he’s doing, maybe what he does for a living. Um, all of those different things. We have to learn things about our attacker. 

Um, E is for Engage only if we feel it safe to do so. And this is where Martha shown was in the engagement with our attacker. You know, we can shift his plan. We can, um, learn things about our circumstances by engaging again, only if we feel it’s safe to do so. Ask him questions. Tell him things, tell– ask for what you need. Tell him what your name is. Engaging with our attacker can humanize us to him, and it can humanize them to us, and it can shift the dynamics of that situation. 

Um, R.... R and T go hand in hand, right? R is for Remain, and T is for Take. We need a part of ourselves to remain where we are as proof that we were there, um, where we are or on him. And take… we need to take things, take something of the attacker with us, um, as proof that… that they were there, right? And so, in terms of Remain, um, we’re talking about DNA, we’re talking about saliva. We’re talking about fingerprints. We’re talking about, you know, uh, personal items that we can leave, and we, we’ve got to leave a part of ourselves. We’re talking about pulling our hair out at the roots and talking it into his clothes, into car cushions, into whatever we can, we can get. So, we’re, we’re leaving some of ourselves. There and then take– can we pull his hair out from the roots? Can we scratch him to get his skin cells under our fingernails? Can we take a personal item of his with us when we go to prove that we were with him? 

So, that’s the alert system Alive, Learn, Engage, Remain, and Take. And if we ever find ourselves having to engage in active compliance, we follow that alert system and um, hopefully it will help us get the fuck outta there, and it will help catch him on the other side of things.

Kellie: Thank you for that refresher. And Lisa, you and I were talking before we pressed record on this episode. That’s one of my favorite episodes, if not my favorite episode, hands down, because I learned so much about things that I just watch in the movies, and I have a little bit of dabbling knowledge about like– 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: DNA evidence and stuff like that, but you just like make it so accessible for us on an everyday kind of level. That’s what I love about that episode. 

Lisa: Thank you. Thank you so much that– I think I’ll agree with you. That is one of my very favorite episodes as well. Just because, and I know, and I’m gonna just, I’m gonna be… I’m gonna be frank about this, y’all, um, that is the least listened to episode that we have currently at the moment. And it is because this is shit nobody wants to think about. We… we don’t wanna think about the… that… that the ugliest thing that we, that having to comply with an attack could happen to us. We don’t wanna think about it. We don’t listen to it so that we don’t, so that we think it won’t happen to us. But I gotta tell you, for anybody who can get in there and listen to that full episode, it’s like, that stuff can save your life. If we ever find ourselves in that situation, that’s the stuff that can save our lives. 

Kellie: It really can. And I, you know, maybe another reason I connected with that episode is for the episode that follows that… episode six dating, I actually did kind of double duty and shared some stories as the storyteller, and at least in one of the stories, actually two of the stories I used active compliance to kind of get myself out of the situation, and I hope you guys listen to that episode because I’m a little partial to it. I’m also a little vulnerable in it, so, you know, lift me up by listening to it. 

Lisa: You know, Kellie, you were so beautifully vulnerable in that episode, and I can’t tell you how many women have said to me like that episode just made me feel like I’m not alone, right? That I’ve gone through some shit in the dating world, and to hear somebody else’s, uh, stories, to hear someone else talk about the same type of stuff that I’ve gone through and kind of thought that I was going through and sort of isolation, um, it was so important for me to understand that we all go through that stuff. I am not alone. And that there are things to learn from that, and that there is no shame, and there does not have to be any shame. All it just… we just have to learn. Right. We just have to learn from it. And so, I wanna thank you so much for opening up your stories, your dating parables for us to be able to learn from.

Kellie: Well, you’re welcome. I’m glad that my seeking love and maybe unsafe… unsafe situations could keep other women safe and not just women, anybody who’s out there, um, regardless of gender, if you’re seeking connection, there are things to look out for, and we kind of talk about that. Lisa’s really great at helping me unpack the things that I didn’t know I was doing in the process of keeping myself safe, but that I did do, and I’m here to talk about it. Um, and there’s, again, listen to the episode. There’s lots of little tidbits, but, you know, top foremost things to look out for, Lisa, grooming, gaslighting ourselves. What else? 

Lisa: Yeah, I think that the one… one of the great things about that episode is that like there’s a list of red flags, right? That we all kind of instinctually know, but you gave voice to so many of those. Um, and yeah, the, the grooming, the love bombing, that sort of stuff, um, that the, the moving too quickly. Um, those are all attempts to… to manipulate you, to trusting someone to get your guard down so that control can be exerted over you. And so, you know, that’s… that’s red flag number one, right?

Someone who is.. is… is telling you the most wonderful things about yourself. You’re the most beautiful woman in the world, and only I see that, or we have a connection that I don’t have with anyone else. And like those sorts of things are great to hear from somebody that you’ve been dating for a minute or that you’re in a… a relationship with. That’s wonderful stuff to hear. Please say those things to your partner if you find those to be true, but for somebody you have just met or who does not know you well, to say that sort of stuff to you. Is an attempt at manipulation and control. 

Kellie: I’m gonna tell you, you don’t fall in love over tapas the first time you meet.

Lisa: You sure as fuck don’t. 

Kellie: You might fall in lust because the aioli or the patatas bravas are really good. But don’t believe the… you’re my soulmate. I’m gonna love you forever. Let’s go make out in the bushes outside the cafe. Don’t… just… don’t do that. 

Lisa: Don’t do that. Don’t do that. And. You know, if somebody, and I think this was playing… there were a couple of red flags that were, that ran throughout all three of your stories, and one of them is somebody who’s taking touchy or conversational liberties that are beyond your comfort level. Right. You know, you had the guy who wanted to make out immediately. 

Kellie: Like, I don’t want… I don’t know what the really great verb is. He was bullying me or pressuring me, but he kept saying things like, oh, come on, you only live once. You’re an adult woman. I’m a man. Don’t you want to let a man know how you feel about him by kissing him back and letting him kiss your neck? And so, it was just me constantly saying, “Hey, you know, let’s just kind of slow it down.” 

Lisa: Even when you were like, hey, whoa, whoa, let’s pump the brakes. We’re going a little too fast here. He… he, you made him understand that you were not comfortable with the speed at which he was going, and he continued, right? He did not, and this is a… another red flag did not respect your wishes and your boundaries, whether stated or implied, when we’d say to somebody, Hey, this is my… this is my lane and it’s the slow lane. And if you wanna be a, if you wanna be in the car with me, this is the lane we’re gonna drive in. And they say, no, no, no, no, no. And they rip the steering wheel outta your hands, and they move you over into the fast lane– um, big red flag. 

Kellie: Absolutely. And the metaphors that we’re using here are not necessarily metaphors, while they kind of are, because that person was a racecar driver and–. 

Lisa: Yeah. And quite literally. 

Kellie: Quite literally. So ,the lane-shifting and the different speeds and kind of crashing the metaphorical car into my life. 

Lisa: Mm-hmm. 

Kellie: Listen to the episode. Yeah. You’re gonna hear about that. And a wolf and maybe a sex-cult recruiter guy. I’m not entirely sure, but I’m pretty sure. 

Lisa: Yeah, we’re pretty, you know, I think the, the sex-cult recruiter guy, um, I think he sensed that you were not gonna be a good recruit for him, and he, and he left you the fuck alone. Um, which was great. 

Kellie: You know, you can fool me in love, you can fool me with pretty words and actions. But the minute money is involved and or a cult, I am, you know, I’m… I’m done. I’m good.

Lisa: Yeah. Yes. And I think the other thing that you found is you tried to sort of pull back right from some of these, um, situations or experiences or moments with some of these men. Uh, and I’m thinking specifically of Wolf Man, when you try to kind of pull back a little bit. All of a sudden, those claws came out, didn’t they? He had a lot to say about you and none of it good. 

Kellie: None of it good. He was howling at the metaphorical moon that I was not acquiescing to his primal needs.

Lisa: Mm-hmm. And so, someone who does that, that’s another red flag. Someone who makes comments to demean you or degrade or compromise your self-esteem… uh, can get the fuck out immediately because then you have to ask yourself, why do you need to control my emotional state? Why do you need me to feel a certain way about myself? If you were actually a good person, if you actually cared? If this was an honest exchange, you’d want me to feel great about myself. Right. You certainly wouldn’t want me to feel bad about myself, so anytime someone is making any comments to you that compromises your self-esteem, whoa, whoa, whoa. You better back up. Take a second look. 

Kellie: So, yeah, that episode demystifies a lot of, “Oh, I should just act this way if I want a partner,” or, “I should put up with this if I want to find love.” No, you don’t have to. So, we kind of demystify that, and this is a great segue into episode seven, which Lisa is a self-defense trainer, expert, she’s got her Diamond Defense business, and she uses that episode…. And I… I learned so much with this episode, Lisa, about the different kinds of physical self-defense, arts, and practices that you can do. So, take us through that. I know you’re not gonna go as in-depth as you do in that episode, so listeners listen to that episode. But tell us… tell us all about that. 

Lisa: Well, I think the great thing is you found out that, um, if you were to undertake martial art practice, Aikido would be the thing for you. 

Kellie: Mm-hmm. 

Lisa: That would be your go-to. 

Kellie: Yeah. That was the one that I was drawn to. 

Lisa: That spoke to you. And I think that, you know, for me, in terms of that episode, it was just an effort on my part to sort of dispel a thing that I hear a lot from women, which is, I don’t think I have a place in the self-defense world. Um, and it couldn’t be farther from the truth. Every single person, regardless of age, ability, what have you, we all have options that we can use in our self-defense. And there is a space for all of us, whether it’s Jiujitsu. Right? To Taekwondo to Aikido to reality-based self-defense programs. Uh, there are so many different spaces that self-defense training offers to people, and there’s a space for you. And I think that I just wanted to kind of break it down for everybody so that we could all kind of figure out maybe what that space is for us, uh, and get involved in that.

Kellie: You do a great job, and it makes me want to get more fit. Not that I need to be more fit to take any of those, uh, practice any of those art forms, but I’m like, oh–

Lisa: That’s right. You’ve taken my class, you’ve taken my class, 

Kellie: I’ve taken your class, and I could start with, how do you say it? Aikido? Is that how you pronounce it?

Lisa: Aikido. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kellie: Aikido. I’m like, maybe I could start there. But it’s very motivating to get the safety physically in our bodies and learn it that way, which I really liked about learning through that episode. 

Lisa: There’s something that happens to us psychologically when we feel like we have options in physical defense.

Kellie: A hundred percent. 

Lisa: And yeah, I just can’t emphasize that enough. 

Kellie: So, speaking of realizing that we have options, that’s a great, again, segue into episode eight, Coercive Control. And this was a learning opportunity for us just as also as producers, because this was our first international guest and that was exciting. And so coercive control– tell us about Karin and what we discovered and experienced through her story and her ex… her… her endeavors to be safe. 

Lisa: First, I just wanna… I just wanna praise your segues because these are masterful. 

Kellie: You know, I pride myself in my segue sensibility, so thank you for acknowledging that. 

Lisa: Absolutely. Thank you for guiding us through all of this. This is fantastic. Okay. Uh, yes. We were so fortunate to be able to talk with Karin and for her to, you know, do what so many of our guests, including you have done, which is allow herself to be vulnerable in a way that helps use her experience to let us learn. Um, she was, uh... I… I, and I told her this, right? I… I was in awe of her strength as we spoke with her about her experience of being in a coercive control relationship for nine years and then being able to get herself out of that relationship.

Karin: I went on the Monday, and I said, look, “I’m really concerned. He’s threatening to take me to court. He wants custody of the kids, you know, kick me out and have the kids.” Um, and at that point, I showed her some of the messages he had been sending me to say that he was gonna take me to court. He wanted the kids. If I didn’t do what he wanted, he was gonna upload, um, images of me that he’d taken without my consent, you know, online. Um, and when I showed her those, she just said to me, “This is abuse. You need to go to the police.” 

Lisa: Um, it’s a… an amazing story. Uh, listeners, please, if you haven’t, go back and listen to that full episode. There are so much to be learned from her experience and, um, she’s just wonderful to listen to as well. I love her accent so much. Um.

Kellie: I know it’s such a great accent, and she’s such a lovely, genuine human being, and she also brought us joy in the form of chocolate, Lisa. 

Lisa: Oh my God. I don’t think we even told her this. Karin, if you’re listening, Kellie got us some Caramilk. 

Kellie: Yeah, I did. 

Lisa: And damn, that’s good stuff. 

Kellie: So, listen to the episode, listeners, but we talked about certain joys and pleasures, and chocolate came up, and chocolate is my love language, and we talked about Australian chocolate, and she mentioned this brand. So, I immediately, after we were done recording that episode, procured… I had to import it even. But I got myself some Caramilk chocolate from Australia, and we enjoyed it. So, not only do we learn how to be safe on this podcast, but we also learn about new chocolate. 

Lisa: Which I’m…, I’m here for the chocolate. Um, if there’s a…. listeners, let us know if anybody knows of a podcast that… that wherein we can learn about new and wonderful types of chocolate. Um, I’m listening immediately. 

Kellie: Yeah, tell us about the podcast, but also tell us what your favorite chocolate is, because we will try it. 

Lisa: Yes, please. We will get it, and we will try it, and we will report back, and the Caramilk– chef’s kiss five stars.

Kellie: It was so good. Lisa, I wonder if there’s a way that we can work an episode into just how to be safe with chocolate.

Lisa: Uh, we’re gonna try, I think. And I think we should. Yeah. 

Kellie: So also, Lisa, there was so much information in Karin’s episode that was so educational. And there was– you found a website with a list of bunch of things that talk about coercive control and how to identify it. Correct. Can you remind us what those are? 

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. It was an incredible, um, uh, organization out of, uh, Australia called Relationships Australia, Victoria, and it’s relationshipsvictoria.org.au. Um, and they list the 12 signs of coercive control. So, it was a sort of a great way to navigate Karin’s story, right? It was just to… to go through each 12 of those things and talk about how that affected her, how that showed up in her relationship. And so, um, without… you know, rehashing the entire episode. I just wanna go through and name those 12 things, and I just wanna say to anybody listening, if you are experiencing any of these things in your relationship, or if you know someone who is experiencing these things in their relationship, there are resources, there is help. Please, please, please pay attention to these things because they can start very subtle, um, but they will escalate, um, as we, as we were witness to in Karin’s story. 

So… and the 12 signs of coercive control are number one, isolating you from your support system. An abusive partner wants to isolate you so that no one is there to say, hey, wait a minute, this person is abusive, right? So, they get to continue their control. 

Number two, monitoring your activity throughout the day. Number three, denying you freedom and autonomy, not allowing you to go where you wanna go, when you wanna go there. Gaslighting, um, we… we… this was a huge theme in Karin’s story, right? Where, where the abuser makes you doubt your own truth. And your own experience. 

Number five, name-calling and severe criticism. Just talked about this as a red flag, right? Um, these are malicious put-downs are an extreme form of bullying. Number six, limiting access to money and controlling finances. This is sort of a specific form of abuse called financial abuse, and I think we’re actually looking at doing a full episode on financial abuse in the near future.

Um, number seven, coercing you to take care of all of the domestic duties, cleaning, cooking, childcare, someone who’s not sharing any of the responsibility for that with you. Number eight, turning your children or loved ones against you. They can, uh, you know, they may try and weaponize your children or your loved ones by making comments that are critical of you or belittling you in front of them.

Number nine, controlling aspects of your health and your body, controlling how much you eat, sleep, exercise, et cetera. Number 10, making jealous accusations about the time you spend with family or friends. And this kind of goes into the… the number one as well, the… the need to isolate you from that support system.

Number 11, regulating your sexual relationship. So, making demands about the amount of times you engage in sex and what kind of sexual activities you perform. And then number 12, threatening your children or pets or loved ones as an extreme form of intimidation. So, all of those showed up in Karin’s relationship.

All 12 of those are signs of coercive control. If you sense these, you know someone who’s dealing with this… please help them get information on this. Please reach out to the resources that are in our show notes. There is help, and you are not alone. 

Kellie: Thank you for reminding us of all that, and thank you for reminding just that… that access… access to that information is in our show notes for every episode.

Lisa: Absolutely. 

Kellie: That is a… that is a heavy-lift episode, but there’s a lot of joy in it, too. 

Lisa: Yeah. We talk about chocolate. I mean, what’s more joyous than that? 

Kellie: We talk about chocolate. 

Lisa: And the fact that she got out. I mean, that’s the… the main, that’s the greatest takeaway from that episode is that Karin is, she’s starting to live her best life again. You know? She is… she is thriving, and her kids are thriving because she was able to get herself out of that. And, um, as she says, you know, um… things get better. 

Kellie: Things get better. 

Lisa: Yeah. 

Kellie: Have hope. 

Lisa: Yes.

Kellie: Um, hope is always a theme in my life. And speaking of themes and our… this is our mid-season recap, our first season, we’re so proud and excited. Um, but there’s three words at the top of the season. Our first three episodes that are, I think an element in every story that we’ve shared, in every conversation that we’ve shared, and they’re also meaningful to you and another piece of content that you’ve created. So, can you share with us what those words are and kind of what they mean overall?

Lisa: Yeah, we just talked about them, right? Uh, throughout every story that we’ve learned, throughout every person that we’ve talked to, um, it’s the top three. It’s the awareness, it’s the confidence, and it’s the destination. And those three things play a role in every single story that we have heard. Um, so I think it’s just important to keep those top of mind.

There’s a reason that those three things are the quote-unquote three things that show up, uh, when predators are looking for targets. And those are the top three things to pay attention to. Um, you know, the… the short film that we talked about when we started the podcast that I made last year called “Three Things,” focuses on those three things, which by the way, that film is now, it’s eight minutes long.

It is not a long, it is not a long watch. And is eight minutes long. It’s now up on the Diamond Defense YouTube channel. Um, and it’s called “Three Things.” And you can certainly listen to our podcast on the YouTube channel as well. But that film is up there and for anybody to watch. And I think that, um, it kind of sums up so far, um, every story that we’ve, that we’ve listened to.

Kellie: I love that. And we will definitely link, uh, to that short film in the show notes. So, you definitely can watch it. I’ve seen it a few times. It’s so well done. The cinematography, I’ll say, is just beautiful. Your lead actor is wonderful. Even your… your creep, uh, maybe predator is, is well performed, I must say. Uh… if you’re gonna perform a predator. 

Lisa: Yeah. And he’s the nicest guy in the world. And isn’t that always the case? 

Kellie: Good to know when you’re watching it so you can, you know, have that in the back of your head.

Lisa: We were super fortunate to be able to work with an amazing team. I think that’s why the film turned out so well. Uh, our cinematographer, Joey Katches, um, is just, the literal best, um, Story Lit Films is his company. And, uh, the whole team, the whole crew, um, you know, everybody was there for a purpose. Everybody was fantastic to work with. The actors were incredible. Liz Frederick, who plays the… the hero in the film was just, um… just the best to work with. And, uh, so we, yeah, we were very fortunate in making that film. And, um, you got a couple others that I wanna make on some other things, so, we’ll… we’ll see how that goes in the future. 

Kellie: And I know everyone involved with that was special, but a special shout-out to Brian, too. Your co… your co-conspirator. 

Lisa: So that film would not have happened without my buddy Brian Rife. Um, he was my co… co-producer, co-writer, first assistant director. Um, he is one of the best allies that ladies have, and I have so much love for that guy, and we could not do what we do and keep ourselves safe without our allies. And, um, Brian and I are gonna do this again. We’re gonna, we’ve got a couple of more films that we wanna make. Um, and, uh, I can’t wait to work with him again. And yeah, we’re very fortunate to have him involved with that. It wouldn’t have happened without him. Uh, he was the best editor, uh, that I’ve ever had, and so I love my guy. Yeah. Shout out to Bri Bri. 

Kellie: We love Brian. So you have future plans of creating content with him. We also have future plans for stories that we’re gonna share and conversations we’re gonna have here on the podcast. What are some potential topics we’re exploring in the future, Lisa? 

Lisa: Well, you know, we… we’ve, like I said, we’ve been super fortunate, right, Kellie, to have these wonderful storytellers on, um, to share their experiences with us in ways that we can all learn from, and we wanna keep doing that. We want to continue to hear your stories. We want to continue to be able to use storytelling as self-defense, um, and to be able to learn from each other. And so, you know, that is absolutely. What we’re gonna continue doing, and as we hear those stories, we’re gonna build episodes around those themes. We also have been talking with some experts lately about different topics that… that they can bring to the table.

And so, you know, some of the upcoming themes that we’re exploring in having some conversations with some… some folks who are experts in these, in these areas are things like sexual safety. How do we keep ourselves safe when we’re in sexual situations? Um, potentially with people we don’t know very well, or people that we do.

You know, things like boundaries, safe words, um, red flags, all of those sorts of things. Um, we’re also, I’m gonna be talking with someone who has written a book about having loved ones who are in abusive relationships. What do you do if someone you love or someone you know is in an abusive relationship, how do you… how do you navigate that, and how do you help them stay safe?

Um, and then, like I talked about earlier, financial abuse. Financial abuse is one of the lesser talked about, but more insidious forms of abuse. And so, we’re gonna be talking with an expert about what that looks like and how to deal with that. Um, yeah, so we’re gonna be having lots of great conversations coming up. I’m so excited. 

Kellie: I’m excited too, and we are moving into stories that Lisa kind of sit longer in the body…. conversations about what happens after. And listeners, if you’re listening and thinking, hey, something like that happened to me or something we haven’t covered, we wanna hear from you. We… you don’t have to be dramatic, you don’t have to have it done… everything right. We just want you to be here with us telling your truth, sharing your story, so we can keep other women safe. 

Lisa: Going into a space where we’re telling our stories and potentially feeling very, very vulnerable about that is very hard. But that is where learning happens because we are all human beings and we are all vulnerable at one point or another in our lives, and being able to share that with our ladies and learn from that gives it so much more power. Right? And then… and then there’s growth from that. And then we all have more agency because of that. So, stories, as I’ve always said, storytelling is a form of self-defense. When you share your story, someone else is gonna recognize themselves. Someone else is gonna go, oh my God, I’m not alone. Or someone else is gonna go, oh, that’s what I’m gonna do if I’m ever in that situation. And so, we… we would love to hear from anyone who thinks that they have something to talk about that… or an experience that might help other women stay safer. 

Kellie: Nice. And you can contact us at our website, DiamondDefense.com, at our email DiamondDefensePodcast@gmail.com, or you know, find one of us on social media.

Lisa: Most of all, listeners, um, we wanna thank you for listening to this episode. We wanna thank you for listening to any of the content of the Diamond Defense Podcast that you have engaged in so far. We are so grateful for your ears. We are so grateful for you spreading the word about this podcast. This community is growing and, uh, we could not be more excited about that.

Kellie: We love you listening, and every story that we’ve shared this season reminds us of something simple. And powerful. And you don’t owe anyone your comfort. 

Lisa: No, you don’t. 

Kellie: Thank you. And also, yo, this is so important– watch out for motherfuckers! 

Lisa: And shine on, Diamonds. 

Theme Music: I am a fighter. Checking my armor. I'm marching onward. Hey Hey. I am a fighter…