Play The Spaces Podcast

Action with Purpose: Part 2

• Nithin Cherian and Malcolm Moore • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In Part 2, Nithin Cherian and Malcolm Moore continue exploring “Action with Purpose,” using the Mind Vehicle framework to help listeners navigate growth, transition, and intention. This premiere episode dives into how purpose, timing, and perspective shape creative and personal evolution.

References

Star Wars (George Lucas) - “Star Wars psychology” and imagining a therapist-style character. The Boys - A darker tone they’re not going for. Stranger Things - Community and friendship before smartphones. The Emperor’s New Groove - Kronk’s angel/devil voices and “squirrel talk” as a metaphor for hidden gifts. Poltergeist - “Go into the light”: letting the old version of yourself move on. Weird Science - A playful ritual for saying goodbye to a past identity.

Books & Thinkers

The Body Keeps the Score - Bessel van der Kolk How trauma lives in the body and can be released through awareness and movement. Joe Dispenza - On rewiring thought patterns and mindset. Stuart Smalley (SNL) - A humorous nod to “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough” affirmations. Paul Reubens (Pee-wee Herman) - Creative brilliance and the challenge of balance.

Concepts 

Ouroboros - The snake eating its own tail; being stuck in a self-consuming loop. New Orleans/Jazz ,Viking Funeral - Letting go of an old identity anc celebrating rebirth. Free Jazz & Math Rock -The tension between improvisation and structure; planning with intention.

Core Ideas

• Stress can manifest physically (“redlining the engine”).
• Grieve and celebrate the version of you that’s gone.
• Asking “Why am I?” beats harsh self-talk.
• Test new versions of your next chapter.
• “Play the Spaces”: rest, timing, and silence are part of the music of life.

Please visit-
www.playthespaces.com

*Theme music composition and performance by Malcolm Moore.
**Photo manipulation by Caleb Moore.

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Malcolm's Other Podcast: Creativity is the Cure!

Malcolm & Nithin

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Speaker 00:

Bye

Nithin Cherian:

Maybe George Lucas will be like, oh, these guys are talking about Star Wars psychology. Maybe we can do some weird Star Wars character like Sigmund Freud meets an octopus face. I don't know.

Malcolm Moore:

That's more like the boys, and I don't even want to go in that direction today.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah.

Malcolm Moore:

Anyway, okay, so I'm going to start with a really big dilemma. And you and I have been talking about this recently. I can only speak for myself, but I'm at a point in my life right now where I seem to be struggling with something that I would clarify as psychosomatic. And just so everybody knows, a psychosomatic disorder happens when mental stress and distress cause to make a physical condition and its symptoms worse. So, Psycho means relating to the mind. Somatic means relating to the body. Now, that being said, here's where I'm at. I went to college for human development and psychology. I know a lot about this stuff, but I'm dealing with a lot of stress right now and a lot of challenges that I don't quite know how to solve. And I've realized within the last year, I'm starting to let the stress go to my body. I'm having more physical problems than I've ever had at age 55, and I'm starting to see, yeah, that it's making me physically ill, that I'm not handling the stress well. I don't know if I'm denying it. I have the ability to be outside of my body and look at it and going, dude, everything's going to be fine. You've always been okay. You've always survived. But there is a level of me that either thinks I'm not dealing with it or they're saying, nope, this is too difficult. We're going to make ourselves sick. So we're intermittent, maybe. I don't know what that is. And before you answer, I say this to you knowing a lot about this topic. My favorite book that has to do with this is called The Body Keeps the Score, Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma by Bessel van der Kolk. So in this book, he uses recent scientific advances to show how trauma literally reshapes both the body and the brain, compromising sufferers' capacities for pleasure, engagement, self-control, and trust. He explores innovative treatments from neurofeedback and meditation to sports drama and yoga that offer new past to recovery by activating the brain's natural neuroplasticity. With all that being said, I know what's going on, but I can't seem to stop this thing. I feel kind of like that ancient symbol of the snake eating its own tail. You've known me for, what, three decades. What is your experience with this? I'm just going to call it a syndrome. I'm not going to get scientific, but I'm stuck in the cycle no matter what I try. What are your thoughts on when people get stuck?

Nithin Cherian:

Well, I think the basics is expectation. If you take this up to its highest level, one of the biggest differentiators between successful people and not successful people is successful people embrace failure. They look at failure as part of the process to getting to success. If you're not failing, you're playing it too safe. So a lot of people look at a lot of successful people as risk takers when they're really just taking calculated risks and okay with losing. but they're not okay with losing without learning something. So they always learn from their failures. And so what they do, which I don't do well enough when it's my own personal things, but I do it when it's for other people, they embrace the fact that here's the thing, I'm going to do it. Sometimes your best option is 50-50. Sometimes your best option is 20% success. Sometimes your best option is 80% success. Obviously, when it's 80% success, it's easy to take that swing, but you can still lose. And you're more willing to go into it because you're like, yeah, I'm probably going to win. 50-50, you might have a little bit of a motivation, right? But what's interesting is most people, especially when you're trying to solve problems by yourself because you don't have maybe that community or that trust of your community or skill set within your community. So it's really just, I got to figure it out. It whittles away that percentage, even though it could be a 60-40, 60% chance that you're going to make it through. In your mind, it brings it down to like 5 or 10%. Okay. And the problem is if it's the only action that you feel that needs to be done because you're hyper-focused on that action. And you just keep doing stuff that's like trying to push a boulder or hitting your head against a brick wall. At a certain point, you're just exerting it so much energy that your body gets to failure and you don't see any change. And so as you push and push and push, your mind just keeps telling you you're going to fail, you're going to fail, you're going to fail. And it's basically telling you you're not going to survive. And so it starts... A fight or flight

Malcolm Moore:

type of thing that's going on? on in your mind?

Nithin Cherian:

I think it's part of it. It's definitely a certain version of that. This internalizing is of the fear of lack of success or not being able to do this is actually a coping mechanism because your mind's got to push that energy somewhere so it can still function. And what it's doing is pushing it through your systems. And unfortunately, it's not a good energy to your system. It's a bad energy through your system. And that's where your system starts to fail because then your mind creates the loop that okay I'm in this failure pattern so I'm going to stay in this failure pattern and the thing you just hope is you survive it

Malcolm Moore:

a lot of people think that when humans first existed they had the fight or flight mechanism for when they were attacked by an animal or there was something very serious going on but modern day people it sounds like from what you're saying if you are stuck in fight or flight 100% of the time it's eventually going to wreak havoc on you because you have no time for recovery is that kind of what you're saying

Nithin Cherian:

well you're not recovering covering because your adrenal system is on overdrive, literally pushing all of your systems to the brink. It's like riding an engine in the red constantly instead of switching gears. And the problem is you may not have the tools to know how to switch gears. You might not know that you can even switch gears. You can handle that pressure and shift. And this is where the art of understanding mindset and perspective and how you can sort of shift perspectives This is a lot easier said than done, but it's something you could do. And this is why, you know, sociopaths and certain people that just have sort of no empathy have an easier time with some things like this because they can sort of box it into another place. Compartmentalize. And push to a different direction. And there's a danger with compartmentalizing, too, because at a certain point, it's like storing a bunch of bomb components in a room. If you put too many in there for too long at a time and then too much heat occurs in that room, the room might just self-combust. You won't have to do anything. thing.

Malcolm Moore:

You're making me think of recently, I was so busy and so stressed. I didn't change the oil in my car and then it stopped working. And I was like, what's going on? And I took my car and they're like, you have no oil in your car.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah. You pushed it too far. You route it in the red for too long. You had it work too long, creating too much friction that it just sort of stopped.

Malcolm Moore:

Yeah. And the car is like, nope, we're done.

Nithin Cherian:

What a lot of people do to survive these things is they separate mind and body to handle this problem. And so In my perspective, and I'm going to say this because you prefaced like you did study and all this crap. As you know, I don't. I don't study any of this stuff. You're always like,

Malcolm Moore:

I was like, I read this great book. And you go, oh, yeah, what's it about? And then you just from what I tell you, you get it down to one sentence. So you don't need to read it.

Nithin Cherian:

Well, everything is written with a purpose. So if you tell me the title, who wrote it and what they think their audience is, it's not hard to figure out. It's just a bunch of bullshits. that everybody else already knows and repackaged. But the reality is that all science, all these things come from observation. The question is, is how skillful are you at observation? And not to say that I'm special or not. I just have certain skills. I don't know where they came from. And how I process information was a lot of failure of my own. I mean, I was really awkward when I was younger. Like I wouldn't shake people's hands. It would freak them out. I didn't like to hug people. I always said the wrong thing in response to questions. I still sort of do. If I'm in the wrong mood, you know. But on the other note, like if I'm focused, I am surgical with how I can affect space and do these things. But the point of all this is one thing I discovered when I was living in fight or flight for a long, long time is the longer I was in fight or flight, the further my, we'll call it my inner psychology, my inner mind, my sense of self and my brain was detached from my body. And that's sort of an internal defense mechanism. And what's scary about that is as you're trying to process this problem, you're not realizing how much you're destroying your body. And that's literally a mechanism your body is designed to do so that you can try to survive it. But what's really weird is because you're not getting these same impulses and you're blocking these pathways in your mind, you're not getting this signal that says, oh, by the way, your stomach is jacked up, your leg is hurt, your this is hurt until literally really breaks, then you're like, how the hell did this happen? Why am I always sick? Why is this happening? And that's because your adrenal system is pushing your internal system so hard because you're spinning in your mind. And to survive it, you separate. So what's really crazy is two things have to happen. One, you have to do the scariest thing possible, which is reattach your mind to your body and be present in the pain of the situation.

Malcolm Moore:

It's like a bad B horror movie, like a reanimator.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah, but you You have to connect. If you don't connect, you won't really see the alternatives to solving the problem. You'll just cope by staying away and hope you make it through. And then the second thing you have to realize is you could fail. And if you fail, what is the worst thing that's gonna happen? Maybe you lose your house. Maybe you lose your spouse. Maybe you lose all these things, which is scary as hell. I'm not gonna argue that. That's scary as hell. Who knows what will happen? But a lot of times what you lose is, people not in extreme situations but for most people what you lose isn't as important as you think it is right it's just your current mindset thinks it's important it's sort of like when you were in grade school and if you told yourself because of expectation in your head that you had to have your first kiss at prom or something or your first kiss at the sadie hawkins dance at 13 or some bull crap like that right and then you couldn't get a date and it didn't happen You know, and obviously hot people don't know what this means. But maybe for them, it's they couldn't get the guy that they liked or girl that they liked to go out with them. And that's what they wanted with. Right. And when it didn't happen, did you die? No. Life moved on. And then maybe you had your greatest first kiss, but you didn't even give it a chance to be the greatest because it didn't happen in the expectation in your mind. Right. And what your mind wanted it to be in both time and situation. And what's sort of bizarre about healthy mental state. and all these things is you create these images and worlds around how you've responded to environments your whole life. And then at certain points, you create such a solid non-plastic form of this reality that it can crush you. It crushes lots of people. And then some people never recover from it because some people never knew they needed someone else to help them get out. Some people can do it on their own, but a lot of people need other people. And sometimes the way you get out of it is not even by trying to fix it, It's just trying to do normal function. And this is where community was the greatest thing that sort of forced you into doing stuff. You know, shoot, people are barely in a community with their own immediate families. They live in the same house anymore. Right. It's because to them, it's too hard because it's a non-practice skill. Even

Malcolm Moore:

eye contact is terrifying to a lot of us.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah. But why?

Malcolm Moore:

Because we don't practice

Nithin Cherian:

it. It's like everybody's turned into somebody's freaking house cat. Look at me. Don't look at me. Look at me. Don't look at me. Why are you looking at me? Don't look at me. This is crazy. Oh, my God. He's looking at me. Maybe I should run away. Maybe I should stay here. Maybe I should bite him. Maybe I should claw him. What should I do? But he might pet me. Like, what the hell? Like, seriously, everybody's a freaking cat now. We all got to be cat people. And then the cat people are freaked out by dog people because, like, the dog people just run up to you and start licking your face. Or in, like, the human equivalent, it's like they run up and they hug you, like, super tight and, like, you know, hold your hand and run around and, like, just dance around and go crazy. And you're like, oh, my God. What's going on? This golden retriever energy is just too much for me. What is this person doing? And the sad part is you could have been literally the best of friends if it was like 30 years ago when you're forced to have normal community because you would have been at least sort of... Your ability to just function in space would have been just capable enough to take the edge off of that person to go, wow, that little person, even though we're two different people, is like my best friend and they'll drag me into the world. You know, you've seen like a million movies where, you know, it's funny and I use movies as a reference, but movies are a projection of ideal state for a lot of people. But this happens in real life where, you know, you have two friends. One friend is like the mousy introverted friend, you know, and the other friend is the super outgoing one. And they both Both drag each other into beautiful directions, and that's why their friendship works. But why they're really friends is at their core, you know, they're very similar people, right? It's just how they manifest their energy is different, you know? And if you think about, you know, the whole concept of playing the spaces, it's basically the way that they play is different. You know, one plays really set back and a little bit quiet, very strategic, and the other plays all intense and in your face. this whole, you know, if you think of like people's expression of themselves, introvert versus extrovert, right? And your friends that are in their expression, i.e. the way that they play is different. But the beauty of them coming together is that thing that they create when they're together is magic. You know, sometimes the greatest bands are people of different personality types. They might sort of hate each other, but when they go to make music, it's freaking genius.

Malcolm Moore:

Well, I think that's also why that show Stranger Things is so popular. I think one of the reasons why is because they're looking back to what you're talking about when we didn't have all these devices and yeah these ragtag you know seven or eight kids are all together and even though they have differences they have that connection of being friends and being self-aware

Nithin Cherian:

well sometimes just the connection was we're stuck in the same boring town right and that was enough to see if there were discover there was more but you didn't have to discover it all by yourself and currently how a lot of people do it is they discover it separate from their body you know their mind mind separate from their bodies, their mind grows, but their body doesn't really know how to learn how to respond to those things. But even more so, they have to do it on their own. It used to be you did it with a community of random kids in your neighborhood or friends at school, so you didn't have to take all the load on yourself. Sometimes you can be the person that watches, and the other time you can be the person that leads the charge, right? And different people in your crew would take turns based on who had which skill, because not everybody had the same skills. Because you had that bond from being in the same neighborhood, from being in the same block, or the same city, the same suburb, whatever. You had this power in numbers because everybody would take their turn at being present instead of constantly just being on or running

Nithin Cherian:

away.

Malcolm Moore:

There's kind of like an identity component and I want to transfer here to something more specific because the things that you're saying today are great and they're profound and I can walk away and be, say to myself, okay, I got to apply these things and everything. I'm going to work through all these issues. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to be completely vulnerable because a lot of times I listen to these things and it's just a vague description of what you might do in a situation. So I think the reason why I'm feeling psychosomatic effects is because for me, most of my life, I have tried to achieve certain things. Most of my life, I felt like I did not achieve those. And a lot of them were professional or creative goals. The only time I've ever felt like the universe responded to me, like accepted me, is when I, by mistake, became a music teacher 12 years ago. I moved to And that's what I had done. So I got hired at a charter school and it was going pretty well. And it's what I had done helping special needs kids and people with the IEPs. But then the music teacher left and they didn't know what to do. And my friend, Sarah Min, who knew me really well, she said to the admin people, Hey, you know, Malcolm's a really good musician. Maybe he should be the music teacher. And so I went and did a little bit of training because I hadn't done music theory since high school. And then before I knew it, it, I was a music teacher. And I was very successful at it. And it lasted 12 years. And I just really felt that, okay, I've tried all these other things, but the universe is responding. People are very supportive. And even my dad, who most of our relationship, we didn't get along well, he came out there and saw me doing what I do. And he's like, you belong here. This is great. I'm so happy for you. This is what you're meant to do. Recently, I have found out that for a lot of reasons, they're getting rid of my job. So I am now entering a part of my life where I really don't know what's going to happen. When I look back, I say, okay, I wanted to be a drummer. That didn't work. I wanted to do my own puppet show with Henson people. And that was pretty good, but not much success. I put out my own solo album. Nothing happened. So on one level, I did these artistic goals where I did execute them and I brought them into the physical realm. But there wasn't much response from the universe. The only time my life was when I was a teacher and discovering talent and educating kids and getting them excited and teaching them how to be performers now that that's in many ways over I have a lot of irons in the fire but I don't know where to put all my time and energy because if I honestly look back at my life the only major success I had was unexpected not planned and in many ways maybe not a mistake or an accident but it just came out of nowhere so I'm saying to myself these five or six things I'm thinking of doing should I put time and energy or should I just wait for the next anomaly to occur. So let's take everything that you just told me. Why do you think if I'm stuck there with this dilemma, it's making me physically sick?

Nithin Cherian:

Well, you already said it. You're unsure. So for you, teaching was your safe space. Teaching is what made you feel valued in society. In your identity, you had value. You had purpose. And even though it wasn't like the most ideal of situations, say financially, it was enough. So basically, for the first time in a long time, for what I knew of you, you didn't have to worry about anything other than just sort of having fun being you. And after you find a comfort in a lane, this is like people getting laid off from big mega tech jobs after 30 years of doing them, or any business where, say, the business went out of business unexpectedly, you didn't know, even working there forever, and of your identity tied to your job.

Malcolm Moore:

Yes, the identity is, I think, the fear of the loss of that, I know, is a big component.

Nithin Cherian:

It's an internal death that you're sort of experiencing and it's manifesting in your body because you're freaking out. And in a way, you're dying inside.

Unknown:

Yeah

Nithin Cherian:

That's essentially what's happening. You're sort of dying. Because you're like, oh my God. So you basically have two options. You can fight and grind to figure out a way to keep that gig. And not maybe that gig, but teaching in a reality. Maybe it's start a school, maybe it's whatever. Something you have to build up and you can still contribute. And essentially the exact same way you did before, but through a different medium or vehicle. And the question would be is, can you find a vehicle fast enough that it'll supplement your income right or you could just find any job that'll pay the bills and in your recreational time your free time whatever hopefully exists with that pay the bills job you can you know scratch that itch to be this teacher of sorts or you know the other option is really you can look at life and go I have all these skills now What are other things that I can do where these skills are relevant that I can translate to a different way? Maybe you discover it's not kids you need to help now, it's adults you need to help that are in the same position as you. I mean, think about how many people, plus or minus 10 years, 20 years your age, that need outlets, physical outlets, community outlets, musical outlets that they always wanted to do, didn't have time to do, can't find fulfillment in what they're doing and They want a place where they can safely stretch and grow and whatever, but they don't want to get there. You know, they don't know how to find it. Where do you find those things?

Malcolm Moore:

That makes sense. But when I, I've really been thinking about this a lot lately because I've been feeling physically sick. I'm really wrestling with my mind with, on one hand, I feel very angry that I almost think it's unjust that my job had to end. And I've gone through a lot of this. There's no way to save it as it was. And you're right. Maybe I will use those skills to do something very similar, but in a different way. But the voice I keep hearing in my head says, why don't you just be thankful that you unexpectedly got to teach music to kids for 12 years? You never expected that. So is maybe the first step toward getting better, being thankful and try to look at it in a more positive way.

Nithin Cherian:

Anytime that you're stuck in a place that isn't your natural mindset, reflection for a moment, and I having a wake for your old life. No, seriously. It's probably the best way to deal with it. You can go through the grieving process of what your life was. It's the easiest structured way that you could mirror other systems that exist and follow to do the same thing. You basically use that little space. I mean, you can make a little Barbie version of you or virtual version of you or whatever and have your own funeral where you just talk over that version of yourself and say what was awesome about it, what you did shit you can even invite people to talk about the death of you as this guy and have kids come in whatever and i mean it sounds ridiculous but you will be amazed at how ridiculous things will bring peace to your mind

Malcolm Moore:

I think if I did that, I wanted like a New Orleans funeral where it starts out somber and then everybody dances away and celebrates

Malcolm Moore:

life. You know, you could literally start a business about how to usher people into recovering from their own jobs and have literally wakes for past lives and do that as a service for like, you know, 30 bucks for 10 minutes. We'll have a 10 minute wake for you in your past life and virtually burn you with like a bow and arrow on fire. like a viking funeral so it's almost like poltergeist with the little woman that's like go into the light

Nithin Cherian:

say it'd be like weird science and you put some electrodes on a Barbie doll and you light it on fire and you feel good because you're like, it's so ridiculous and funny while you wear a bra. I mean, whatever it is, it's ridiculous.

Malcolm Moore:

Yeah.

Nithin Cherian:

Right. But the point is, whatever you think you need to do to go, I can't believe I had this moment in time and I was able to live it for this long. I'm so thankful that that enriched my life, brought me friends, brought me family, brought me A version of me I didn't even know was there. And something so unexpected got me something so beautiful I can never be more thankful for. And then take a deep breath and go, it's not that it's dead. It's another version of where you can take it. It's just like, in theory, high school graduation is a great way of thinking about how you celebrate death. You have a fucking party. Excuse the French. You have a party.

Unknown:

Yeah.

Nithin Cherian:

You literally put on a cap and gown, dress up a little pretty, invite your family and friends, and you do some little circumstantial looking, you know, ritualistic thing where you go, look at me, I did it. Now that whole life is over.

Malcolm Moore:

You're trimming and cutting off the dead branches of a tree. You're doing that so the tree will keep living, but you're letting go of that other stuff that is not alive anymore.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah, I mean, it's just flipping the script, right? It's like, in this case, for a moment, you take a pause instead of play a note, right? Or you change from a major to a minor key, but you're only in a minor key for the bridge, just so you can transition them from one state to the next, then you go back to the major and kick some Well,

Malcolm Moore:

let me ask you, though, you've often talked to me about a mind vehicle. So what is a mind vehicle and how is that going to get me out of this, as they say, this present darkness?

Unknown:

Yeah.

Nithin Cherian:

Mine vehicle is basically something you use to allow you to stay centered to achieve an outcome. So if you think of mine vehicles as different kinds of cars, you have a compact car, you have a luxury car, you have an SUV, you have a sport utility, you have a sports car, right? You have a van, you have a bus, you have a whatever. You can have these different types of things that allow you to stay moving because they're all vehicles. So the key is, you know, which one are you going to gas up? And which one are you going to drive for this next chapter? And you use that as your anchor for your focus to push forward.

Malcolm Moore:

And make sure to change the oil.

Nithin Cherian:

So for instance, right now, you're in that car that's ran out of oil, that's breaking down. And you're going, I'm so mad at the car for leaking oil and now being broke down that I'm so mad I can't even find another car. I don't want to sit in anybody else's car. I refuse to do this. This is ridiculous. I want my car and how it used to be and don't want it to change. And I can't do this, even though my car had a broken Bluetooth and it had this that sucked and that sucked. It's not the perfect car, but I want to buy a car because it was my car. And instead going take a breath rent a car for a week or two get over your car and realize there's cooler features than new cars and then figure out how to get a cool newer car that fits you better that you can grow into instead of being stuck in the car that you used to be

Malcolm Moore:

all right so you're saying that before i choose the next car i should probably rent a car and maybe try a different type of vehicle

Nithin Cherian:

maybe rent a few right this is this is how you learn where what where and what you're good at now You've been only expressing yourself in one way that you don't even realize the kinds of options that you have because the only options you see are the ones that you're used to seeing, right? And this is why people use professional coaches, not because they're therapists, because they remind you that there's more options than what you can see because they can translate how you think into something else by showing you things that you can receive by understanding how your brain works. So if I know these things set you off, like anytime I ask you about what your food restrictions are. You're like, why are you trying to give me all the food that's gonna kill me? Like, breathe. I'm not trying to kill you. I'm trying to make sure I don't suggest foods that will not agree with you, right? But by asking these questions very briefly, it allows me to process and go, okay, I know these hundreds of recipes, right? If I pull out these things that Malcolm can't eat, either because it makes him sick or he just doesn't like, can I still make it that great experience where everybody will love the dish? If I can say yes, then I'll still make it. And if it's a no, because I I just can't figure it out in my skill set. I'll either ask someone to say, hey, is there something I could do to make this still work? If it's that important for me to do that specific dish because maybe I already have all the ingredients or scrap the dish and find something else. And in the same way, this is what coaches really do, right? The really great professional, like life coach, executive coach, but they focus on certain slices of who you are. And the reality of what you need to do is you need to go... If I reflect back in the life I used to have and I still had it, I go, man, I want to grow into this. What is that one or two core things that I thought that's what I wanted to be and grow into? So maybe it's Malcolm, the event producer of kids community events. Right. Right. Maybe it's Malcolm. I make rock bands with kids. younger kids and teach them not only collaboration skills, but creative skills in a collaborative environment and teach them how to make friends and have the confidence to present themselves all in one motion without realizing it. And now you're teaching different presentation life skills to a bunch of younger kids through building rock bands, learning how to promote them, all these things. Maybe it's I do my own remote school. Maybe I do charitable work, creating case studies and writing grants for different communities to test different theories about how creativity can do X, Y, or Z, all these different things and go, what's the core? Well, the core for me is, Malcolm, I'm a creative individual. So remind myself that I think creativity is awesome. I'm a creative individual and ask my mind, in my mind, why am I the most successful creative individual? And you ask yourself that every day. Now that's sort of freaky to say, I'm not a creative individual, ask myself that. Well, if in your mind, you ask yourself this question and you focus on why am I the most creative individual, not saying a lie to myself, I am the most creative individual. At some point, your mind is gonna start grinding and going, why am I the most creative individual?

Malcolm Moore:

You know, that's hard though. I've got to say that it's almost verging on Stuart Smalley. You know, I'm creative and God darn

Malcolm Moore:

it.

Nithin Cherian:

Yeah, but saying you're creative is saying that the state you're at is ready. And that's not the truth. Saying that you have the components that could be ready for that. So when you say to yourself, why am I the most creative individual? Your body starts cranking into, well, am I? What would make me the most creative individual? And you'll start seeing these things that can manifest your creativity.

Malcolm Moore:

I think for a lot of us that's very difficult because there's a great writer psychologist named joe dispensa and he talks about rewiring your brain and it's fascinating when i read it but to apply it is hard because when you're saying those things that you say like i'm a creative individual i'm positive people like me blah blah blah there's always that other you know creature on the other shoulder that's like no you're not you're a loser you've never had success so it's hard to quiet that voice even if well that is supposed to bring balance to your mind like the yin and the yang it's really hard to quiet that voice

Nithin Cherian:

So first of all, I'm not saying I am a creative individual. I'm saying, why am I the most creative? So posing a question to yourself of what you want to become is different than saying you are what you wanted to become. Most people are in a disparity between what they think they are and what they actually are. And they're missing the skills that they can't see that takes them from where they are. And sometimes the missing skill is just finding, knowing where the right place is to be so that someone can see your skill. And you might be skillful, but if you're, you know, in the middle of the woods, in the middle of Alaska, and you're the best comedian ever, who's going to discover you in the middle of effing nowhere? Right. And if you don't know how to get to yourself in those environments where you can be seen, that is a skill to figure that out. So I'm not saying you are the most creative, because no offense, I don't believe in but if you ask yourself why am i the most creative you can start seeing angles of what makes you more creative or not or what you can start seeing outcomes and possibilities in your own mind of why your creativity as a teacher is different than other teachers right why your creativity as a musician is different than other people and what you're doing is you're creating an inquisitive state not a state of absolution in your mind where you can basically convict yourself to say i'm not not that I'm crazy, right? You can't say I'm the best drummer and I'm good enough. Well, what the hell does that mean? What does good enough even mean? And for who? Good enough for whose situation? Like good enough to play in the, to be the best drummer in sixth grade? Or are you good enough to be the best drummer in the world? And what even makes good enough to be the best drummer? Sometimes the person who's the best drummer didn't even know they were the best drummer. They didn't even try to be. They were just trying to do something else. So the reality is, is nothing of what we're going to say is going to be easy, but how easy was it to learn to walk? You may not remember it, but it wasn't easy. It took a slow, long time. Success isn't overnight. The reality is that success comes from a lot of work, and sometimes what seems like overnight success, people don't realize that they just managed to develop skills, sometimes faster than others, or these other things that they did were developing the skills that they didn't know they were going to end up using. If you really want to be happy and don't where to go is what makes my mind feel good what makes my body feel good what drains my mind's energy what drains my body's energy that's where you start and if you can figure those things out the first things you can start to do is do a couple things or find those couple easy things to do that can make your mind feel good and your body feel good right but you got to do it in a small dose so like don't just eat a bucket of ice cream because you don't want to feel good for a minute and then punish yourself later because you get five pounds in the scale, now you're mad that you can't fit into your favorite pants.

Malcolm Moore:

Hey, no, I'm not the one that does that.

Nithin Cherian:

But go on. I didn't say you are. I'm just saying that's a situation that happens, right? Yeah. But you don't want to go do that. But if you know ice cream will make you feel good for a second, have a scoop. Yeah. And then be okay because at least you had a little moment where you got a break from feeling angry or horrible and you had like a minute or 20-odd seconds to eat ice cream. 30 seconds in my case or or maybe 10 minutes than yours, right? You had this moment where you felt really great and you weren't thinking about anything else other than, wow, I really dig this ice cream flavor. You know, for you, it was whatever you like. For me, it was Panda Paws, right? But my point is, it's that moment. And then you do the same thing for your body, separate from your mind. And then you stop for a second, take a breath and try to look at your problem. And then you go again and try of positive reinforcement to you create positive reinforcement mechanisms to you solving the problem or at least attempting to solve the problem and moving steps forward and the way you move forward is you plan and live with intention you know not everybody can play free jazz and shit most people don't even want to listen to it right but at the same token nobody nobody other than really big nerds love math rock i'm just gonna say it

Malcolm Moore:

yeah

Nithin Cherian:

i'm gonna be really polarizing yeah stuff so planned out and It's like it hurts your head unless you're autistic or high functioning autistic or just really love math. And I know I shouldn't say that and probably get me canceled. But I mean, I bet you if you did a bunch of studies on it, that'd be pretty common reality. You know, dollars to donuts. I take that bet that that was happening. So what you want to do is realize that structure with intention creates outcomes that more people will dig. And that's the same thing that works with planning for your life.

Malcolm Moore:

Yeah.

Nithin Cherian:

So create structure, put a plan together, start with a, what can I do in three months? What can I do in six months? What can I do in a year? What can I do in two? And now granted, you need to make money right away. It's like, oh crap. Well, worst comes to worst, you can drive Uber for a little while, make a little cash. You know, thanks to gig work, there's a lot of little things you could do by going on Fiverr and these other like remote work systems and take one-off jobs to make a little money. You really, really need cash. And you have that ability already without going to the service Yeah,

Malcolm Moore:

I mean, I will do that. I'm more looking in the destination. But what you're saying, this proves how bizarre I am, but when you're explaining this to me, I'm remembering one of my favorite Disney movies. It's called The Emperor's New Groove. And there's this character named Kronk, who I love, and he works for the evil villain Yzma. And he does have, like I was saying, the devil and the angel always trying to influence his his decisions but while he's struggling he doesn't realize that he can naturally talk to the squirrels and he's like going squeaky squeak them right so the way that I'm interpreting what you're saying is I'm already good at a lot of things I'm creative and I'm already doing them so it seems to me you're saying I need to live in the present and the right thing will come I have the skills to do what I need and for me to know what the next chapter of my life is and where it's going to go not Not only will it ruin the surprise, but it's turning out to be detrimental because it's making me sick. Can you take us using the mind vehicle to the point where we can continually play the spaces without getting stuck?

Nithin Cherian:

What I would say is, first thing you start off with is you need to have that wake or celebration of life for what you were. And you need to grieve it and get over it. Right. That's step one. And the reason you treat it like that is so that you truly are over it and you stop fixating on what was. Period. End of story. And that's hard for a lot of people. of people let go. It's not fair. It's not this. One of the worst forms of stress that exists is stress over a life you have no option but not to live because it's out of your control. And this is most commonly from people that had identity based on their jobs. I literally, you know some of these same people that have had nervous breakdowns over the fact that this stuff happened because their identity was so intertwined into it. And one of the biggest sources of inflammation in the body is stress. So to give yourself a tool to get over this 100% is celebrate the life that was and then after that day, move on and go, that's not the equation anymore. The skills I had, the memories I have, they will be the soil that enriches the future and grows that new tree, right? That new fruit of your life. But that is what's feeding the soil. It is giving you the most fertile soil to plant your life from.

Malcolm Moore:

And so what you're saying is it's not really a loss. These seeds that I planted, are going to keep popping up because I've done the ripple effect in working with kids. And as they grow older, even if I'm not who I used to be, I know that I put that positive thing out into the universe and I need to celebrate that, but also let that version of myself go and be ready for the next phase.

Nithin Cherian:

You need to create the opportunity for the new version of yourself to come about. And this is where the next phase is all about intention. So once you celebrate that life or grieve that life, Whatever it is you need to do to get over that life. Then it's take a deep breath and go, let me look at the most ideal dream I have and let's make that a five or a 10 year plan. Now here's the catch. It's not about it being a five or 10 years. Maybe it could happen in two. The reason you break it down to a five or 10 year plan is so that you can make these other steps in between that make it easier for you to achieve this goal and have your whole mind focus in a direction. So for instance, if you say in your vehicle of all these decisions, what did I like the most about what I used to be? I was creative. I was able to empower people. people is probably what I would say that you would say if I had to guess. And I brought joy to people that were frustrated. So if I can make a plan that goes, I want to be this. First of all, I would ask myself those three questions. Will it create joy? Will it empower? And will I be able to be creative? That's the first thought in my head. Right. Right. And so your vehicle is something like telling yourself every day, why do I bring such joy through creative outlet to empower people. And that's the vehicle that you shoot for is that. Because you found these two or three things that you loved and you grieved. And what it does is allow you to not have to feel loss over what you were because what you're engineering forward takes the things that you valued the most out of it and puts it in as the focus of where it's going to grow. It's essentially like the sunlight to the new plant. but the sunlight is creativity, empowerment, and joy. And so the plant grows in that direction because that's what you're focused on. And if you take a step back and just come up with 30 things to try, you know, and try one at a time. And what you'll find is the things that you learn as you try these different things, the things that you learn as you meet people through those processes, they enrich you, they grow you. And at some point, what you'll say is, oh, I fell into this. Well, you didn't fall into it. your intention brought you closer and closer to creating the opportunity for that to happen. Right. And this is why intention matters that so many people don't do in their planning is they leave. They're so used to leaving life up to chance that a lot of times when you work for somebody else, it's like going to public school or high school or grade school. Every day is decided for you. So it's easier to figure out how to find your sense of self because you're not thinking about the things that grow in you. They grow you automatically. Right. Or at school, you're not thinking about how do you keep the lights on at the school? How do you you staff the school? How do you clean the school? All that stuff. You just got to focus on your portion of the mechanism in the school and what you got from it. And since you didn't have to think about it, it brought you your own joy and confidence in your sense of identity. So now that you've discovered yourself and figured out some core things that you love about your identity, if you live with intention and plan for a future, then instead of going, I want to be rich or I want this job, you go, I want to be a creative, empowering, and joyful individual. How you choose outcomes and the energy you push as you really internalize it, because it makes so much sense to you to be that individual, will resonate so much with the world around you that you'll start attracting those opportunities and you'll start seeking them out mentally. And that's how you ask the question, why am I the most creative, empowering, and full individual I know? Instead of saying, why I'm the richest man I know. Because you can be rich and unhappy. You know hundreds of those people.

Malcolm Moore:

Oh, yeah. People think in their mind it's, not only wealthy, but famous and successful. And you're right. I do know a lot of those people and not all of them are happy. And I think listening to what you just said, I think a lot of those people are overlooking their intention and maybe it's misguided.

Nithin Cherian:

We're not taught how to live with intention. The only people that live with intention that you will see regularly are entrepreneurs or athletes. They're hyper-focused on a singular goal, whatever that outcome is, and everything they do is for that. They lose sight of family. They lose sight of friends. They take advantage of relationships.

Malcolm Moore:

The Paul Rubens thing we just watched, he could not balance his personal life with his professional life. And he, unfortunately, I think in some ways, chose only profession over love and compassion, right? And he did achieve that.

Nithin Cherian:

Because he didn't want to fail anymore.

Malcolm Moore:

Yeah.

Nithin Cherian:

He was afraid to fail anymore. And this is a problem when you get older. You become afraid to fail once you get comfortable. The most successful people are comfortable in failure because they don't see failure as truly failure. Failure is a lesson. that teaches you what you didn't know before you went in, so you don't have to repeat that again. And so we all have to learn to, instead of looking at life as how you can fail, you always have to look on the flip side as, well, how can I grow? And how do you grow? Well, growth takes messing up a few times. When you try to learn how to stand up, you fall down a bunch. When you try to learn how to walk, you fall down a bunch. Is that failure? Or is that just part of the process to learn how to balance? This is the mistake and the fallacy we teach ourselves. Part that's scary is learning to start over. And just because you were great at one thing doesn't mean anybody cares when you're trying something new. And it's going to give you the same validation. You have to earn it again. And that's very humbling, especially for those people that were at the top of the business that they're in. And they go try to move forward. And they're like, well, don't these people know who I am? You know, it's just like when sometimes like friends will tell me, well, you were that guy at this company And I'll go, yeah, and? I'm not there anymore. I have like a one to two year window where anybody cares. And no one cares at all. And the reality is, I didn't care either when I was there. So why do I care afterwards? Yeah, does it make it easier to open a door? Does it let me figure out who my real friends were at those times? Sure. But it doesn't matter. It's sort of what I always come down to. So playing the spaces also has an alternative to another thing that I think about in life. And these are like elements in a song that are great songs which is some elements are meant to be there just for a glimpse or a moment, like just a blink in time, like the perfectly placed triangle or cymbal crash. You don't want it for the whole song, but that one impactful point changes the whole magic of the piece. And then other things are meant to be there for the whole song, like the driving beat of the hi-hat or the drums or the silky bed with some synth pads or a piano or something that's laid on the track that keeps you in there, right? And it's there for the whole song. Well, a lot of times, things you experience in life are the same way. Sometimes, just being thankful for having a moment with someone in a train that was never meant to be a moment, more than a moment, or, you know, your whole experience of a beautiful person was one one-hour coffee thing with friends that you happened to meet, and that was the whole purpose in your life for them. It doesn't mean you shouldn't try to be friends, but it also means you shouldn't force it. If, like for whatever reason that everything gets in the way that you shouldn't be friends take it as very simply that that person is something about that person was great for you in the moment but isn't great for you at the current place you are or the future you're going to

Malcolm Moore:

i think that sometimes you need to shelve it i mean you know how hard i worked at making my own kids puppet show and we got it to a certain level we did the six shows they were very successful but when i tried to move to another level the universe just kept saying no and i I didn't give up. I just put it on the shelf and I said, okay, I love this project, but now is not the right time and I can bring it back later. And maybe I won't, but I think that's important to put some things on pause if they're not achieving your goal right away.

Nithin Cherian:

Well, absolutely. And this is where life is about the magic and art of timing. This is really the core essence of my play, the spaces concept for me. It's basically a paradigm we've created so that we can quantify that, I don't know, a duration of something has happened, right? But the art of timing can change everything from how quickly you can gain trust. It could be how understanding the art of timing can change the level of impact you have on a situation. The art of time can change the impact of a situation on you. So you could miss a whole beautiful situation if you're just not present. So understanding the value of present time. Right. Sometimes to not get traumatized about a situation, you have to let your mind escape to another time. So there's a time where being present or not present has value for survival. And so understanding this on and off and then learning to value and respect this on and off, but then that on and off between you and a layer of everything around you is where magic can occur in life.

Malcolm Moore:

I think for the listeners out there, we hope we inspire you to use your mind vehicle to help travel to the place where you can play the spaces.