Shifting Sense of Self: Part 1 - The Caterpillar

Ever feel like your voice sounds nothing like you imagined?  

In this episode of Play The Spaces, Malcolm Moore and Nithin Cherian dive into the shifting sense of self we all experience. From bass grooves and “playing the spaces” to cocoon-to-butterfly transformations, this conversation explores how identity evolves, how others perceive us, and how embracing imperfections can unlock growth. The magic comes in the spaces between the notes.

Transformation isn’t about losing yourself — it’s about finding your core essence.

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www.playthespaces.com

Please visit-
www.playthespaces.com

*Theme music composition and performance by Malcolm Moore.
**Photo manipulation by Caleb Moore.

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Malcolm's Other Podcast: Creativity is the Cure!

Malcolm & Nithin

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Transcript

Nithin: 0:21

So why are we doing this? For years, Malcolm and I have been talking back and forth about stuff. He was sort of my guinea pig of how to get better at coaching people, not telling people what to do, and essentially empowering people. Over the years, all of it's been translated to something really simple, which is at the time I was playing bass when this sort of methodology locked in. And when you play bass, people talk about playing in the pocket. And really playing in the pocket is locking in that groove that just sort of makes you unintentionally tap your foot in a way that you just can't help yourself. You just don't notice it's happening when you're listening to a song and just all of a sudden it's tapping. What's happening? Usually that foundation comes from when the bass guitar and the drums sort of just lock in and the groove just sets super solid. It's why funk has that like just internal way of just getting you. So to put that really cleanly, music just makes you move. You don't know why. A lot of that really comes from how the musicians play the spaces to make this groove lock in. And when it locks in, everything just feels better. And what I realized being a musician, being a business person, is translating this. I would say it for like songwriting, creating success is like writing a hit song. The magic comes in the spaces between the notes. But if we're gonna get really succinct, what's awesome about this is you can just try to live your life in a way that gets you to a gravy moment all the time that feels really good. So playing the spaces is realizing that with intention and a little bit of pause, you can create magic moments all the time in your life. And you can bring other people along for the ride without even trying, just by being you. And that's something that's been a long goal of mine as I've been coaching Malcolm, discovering himself as a musician through teaching, through everything else. I really wanted to instill in him that he has all this power that he doesn't realize. And what's funny is by teaching him these things, I was teaching myself. Because the reality is, is I have the same reality distortion on the value of how my words impact people and how my actions impact people. And everyone does. So really, it's living your life with intent to create magic in every moment is sort of the philosophy of this. And the way we go through this podcast is facing these really ugly conversations, and how facing those ugly conversations can get you to these beautiful outcomes that constantly move your life forward into a place that you would rather be instead of in a place where you sort of stay still or even regress. Because there's always an opportunity, as long as you want it to be, to move life forward towards something you wish you could be instead of what you just are. And if just what you are is what you want to be, then that's great. But that's just because you've already found that groove that works for you. Essentially, you're playing the spaces because you love everything that's happening. But sometimes, even if you love everything that's happening, you might miss how other people are responding to everything that's happening. And playing the spaces is also just learning to be self-aware about how you're affecting space. Not just you fitting your own rhythm, but how your rhythm finds synchronicity with everyone else. Bringing you the vibes.

Malcolm: 4:14

All right, Dr. Nathan. All right, so here's something I've been thinking about. My teaching job of 12 years ended, and I'm enjoying working from home, doing a lot of stuff that I didn't have time for before. But I feel like my identity as an educator for the last 12 years has had the rug pulled out from under me. That's not to say that I'm not gonna still teach or I'm not gonna do this or that, but you know, it actually makes me think of a new interview I saw with one of my favorite actors, Tilda Swinton, yesterday, and she was saying, she was encouraging people not to worry about what your identity is, because you're gonna go through so many phases in life that you should just more kind of enjoy the ride and be perceptive. I mean, I'm paraphrasing her, but I think I can understand that with her, because if you look at her career, she's played such a diverse group of characters, many of them androgynous or undefinable, and I think her career is a good example of just don't be afraid to let go. And for me, I've been focusing really hard on if I make a mistake or I don't not looking good that day, or I can't stand the sound of my voice, just let it go. It's very hard to do. But like you and I were talking about earlier, when you hear your own voice when you're recording, a lot of people just cringe and they're like, oh my god. But the thing is, that is you kind of just got to deal with it because that's what you sound like to everybody else. What are your thoughts on that? Because you were telling me earlier what you thought too, because you didn't like how your voice sounded.

Nithin: 6:05

Yeah. I mean, so usually I don't like how my voice sounds, period. What I was referencing, what we were talking about for when we were setting up today, is a little different, but it's a great point to bring up, which is the weirdest thing to come to terms with is your shifting sense of self and how that aligns with how others perceive you. So basically your your own internal identity of what you think you look like and how other people process you aren't in line. And this is very common for a lot of people. But what's weird about that is everyone generally has a thing that is their biggest issue with them. Sometimes people, it's like their butt, it's their hair, maybe it's their voice, it's you know, the kind of clothes they have, it's the way that they run, something like that that they're really self-conscious about, that for whatever reason you internally hyperfocus on, and that sort of defines your identity and yourself. The funny thing is, nine times out of ten, most people don't notice those as the things that's the identity around you. Which is pretty funny. Like, you know, like I'm a big dude, right? I'm at this point when we're recording this thing, I'm 300 pounds, five foot nine. I'm a big dude. Basically a walking house. Okay. As my mom would say, I never call my son fat, I just call him a whale. It's awesome. Yeah, mom's her love, love, love my mom. She's brutal in a very loving kind of way. And she thinks it's funny. She doesn't actually think it's insulting, so it's awesome to watch a bunch of people cringe when she says it. So I think it's hilarious. But again, that's the mismatch of intention and perception. You know, a bunch of people listening to this are like, oh my god, I hate your mom already. I'm like, my mom is the funniest, unintentionally insulting person on the planet. If I could only convince her to do a reality show of herself and let me just stream it, I'd be a billionaire. I've been saying that for decades, but go on. I digress. So thinking about it like this, and the reason I mentioned my size is a lot of people that I talk to, after they've known me for a while, they're like, I forgot you're a big dude. Because I don't I don't walk around like I'm a big dude. I don't sort of complain about like I'm too heavy, I'm too this. I'm just very intensely me, like a very intense ball of energy. And people remember the emotion or how I make them feel, really not what I look like. And whether I have issues with what I look like or not, it it is funny when I see myself in photographs or pictures, like holy crap, I'm like three times the size of my friends. Like they'll disappear in the picture if I just move. It's weird. And it doesn't click to me that that's what I look like. Because in my brain, I'm still like the size I was when I was in junior high, which was the size of a normal average human being. Right. You know, except really short for my age. So I was like, I don't know, five foot two, you know, a buck twenty nothing.

Malcolm: 9:20

Right.

Nithin: 9:21

You know, as a dude. So it's it's a weird perception, but your voice is one of those things that a lot of people don't know that in your head, from bone induction, how your ear physiology works, and the thickness of the muscles and the tissues in your throat, how your ears actually perceive your voice is a combination of the inside voice and the inside resonance of your your body and what you hear from the outside reflecting back since you're talking away from yourself from your ears.

Malcolm: 9:53

It's like speakers.

Nithin: 9:54

And so, in a lot of ways, people's voices sound deeper to them than they do to other people. And what's interesting is there's some people who that alignment isn't as different as others. There's just different ways their physiology projects is different. But that's why, like, for me, I sound a lot more nasally than I do in my head. And in my head, I have this like rolling, deeper sounding thing that's happening. Yeah, kind of like I'm talking about.

Malcolm: 10:25

Like berry white. That's how you sound in your head.

Nithin: 10:28

Yeah, in my head. I've got this very berry white kind of vibe, but with clarity. And and when I'm talking regular and I hear it back, I'm like, what's going on? Like, you know, who bought who brought Sammy the squirrel to the party, you know, chirping along and like chewing on nuts and stuff. Like, what's wrong with this dude? Like, where'd he come from? Why does he think he's got like a buttery voice? There's nothing buttery about that grating thing that's coming out of his mouth. It's crazy. Right. You know? So that that distortion in perception, what's funny is most people never remember the details. If you think back to somebody you knew 10 years ago that you met and you knew for like, you know, years before that. So say you you're had a friend in kindergarten through sixth grade, and you're now in your 20s. Do you really remember all that crap about your friend or just really how your friend makes you feel in general? Right. And sort of what they look like. Right. And what you really remember is this massage perception of the emotional positive or benefit that you got from that person, and that sort of lives as like a lens that covers the reality of who they are. So when you see them again, you have that same sort of sense memory to that shared relationship, as long as when you meet them again, they're mostly consistent in their core essence as that same person. Even if they dress totally different, even if they speak in a different style, but you could tell like the mech the total sum of their actions as a whole is the same as that kid that you knew when you were younger. Right. So it's it's really important not to get lost in the minutiae of the little finer details of the things you don't like yourself about yourself and let that get you down, and especially when you're not feeling good about the changes in your life of where you've centered your identity, where a lot of people do that with their jobs and stuff. What you really want to do is just go in aggregate, who am I as a person? I'm a person that usually when I meet people they walk away feeling happier and empowered, they feel worse, they had a lot of fun, like that's a good dude, that's not a good dude, like guys like meh. I mean whatever of those things are, if you sort of just function you know, it's sort of like people that I'm gonna say this about people's pets, like I'm not really a pet person, I as you know. Not that I don't like them, I love messing with them, but I grew up allergic to cats and dogs, so I don't like get all cuddly and crap. But I love that cats and dogs get this like essence of a person that whether I like it or not, I tend to really vibe with people's dogs. They're just like that dude makes me feel calm, so I'll hang out with him because all these other people are sort of too anxious for me. Right. And then I like to stare down people's cats because it's fun to play the dominance, like who's the boss in the room game.

Malcolm: 13:26

Wow.

Nithin: 13:26

And if they get an attitude or not, which is what I do with your cats all the time, because it's fun. So they do that whole look at me, don't look at me kind of thing. But it's really that perception thing. So if you can glean like that sort of vibe that cats or dogs get, and it's sort of they sort of sum up the essence of a person super fast. It's a very trivialized way, but it's sort of a a good way to generalize that's really what you remember and how people remember things of you. Right. What's that vibe, that emotion, that energy they walked away with, you know, when they engaged with you? How did they feel when they started? Do they feel as good if they started positive? If they started negative, did they feel better? And when they walked away, did they go, wow, that was just awesome to meet that person? To me, that's always my goal. I don't win that. I don't get that all the time. I mean, I irritate the crap out of my sister-in-law, I irritate the crap out of my sister, my mom, and my brother. But with strangers, I do a little bit better. So my bigger work is on how do I get better for the people that I know care most about me. Because I'm definitely pretty solid with people that I don't really know and don't have the same significance, and learning how to give them the latitude that I don't give you know that I give to other people. It's weird. But it's the perception. I know that's sort of winded and long. I mean, I didn't really mean to go there, but it's such an interesting topic, this idea of perception. You know, people talk about people like highly impactful people like Steve Jobs, where he had this reality distortion of how he perceived the world and how other people do, and that's why he had his edge. But in reality, he just looked at the world one way and he tried to force it to come into existence. But if you look at all of us, people get body dysmorphia when they go to the gym. They could be the most jacked person in the gym, and they'll look at themselves and be like, I'm fat or I'm small. You know? Those kinds of things are crazy, these perceptions. Because you tend to focus on these little things, hoping that if by fixing these little things, that overall you'll feel better. And the scary thing about feeling better is the best way to feel better is to just try to focus on doing constructive a activities that add to a better life experience. Not just let me go eat a pint of ice cream because that'll make me feel better for about two seconds, and then you know, being lactose intolerant, so you'll be on the pot for the next like three hours. You know?

Malcolm: 15:51

Yeah.

Nithin: 15:52

Because that's sort of the net effect a lot of people with their impulsive things that they do to just feel good for a second. But if you take little baby steps into these little things that move you in that direction, you'll find that life has a way of getting a little bit better incrementally, even in the worst of storms. And it gives you something to anchor to. I mean, I don't know if that's where we're really trying to go with it, but that whole perception thing is just super interesting.

Malcolm: 16:14

Yeah, you're making me think there's this great interview I read with Peter Gabriel, I think it was like in the 80s, and if you know about him, he's not really into drugs. But apparently one night he took some kind of hallucinogen and he left his house and he got lost, and he thought it was the apocalypse and the end of the world, and then he fell in a ditch and he got all dirty and his hair was messed up and he didn't know what to do, and he went back home and he walked in the door thinking that his wife and kids were gonna be shocked, but they just the kids were like, Hey dad, how you doing? So, for the perspective thing, they didn't even realize how he felt inside. And when I think of when I was a teacher going to the classroom, maybe I didn't like the way I looked or I was overweight or whatever, the kids didn't notice. You look the same every day. So, like when you sit there in front of the mirror trying to make your hair perfect or what you're wearing, I think it's like you said, I think that people remember your essence or your soul or who you are. They're not really gonna think about that. And when you said you don't realize how big you are, a lot of times I was working with kids that are four or five years old, and I didn't realize until someone took a photo that I'm like this giant, and the kid is like going up to just past my knees. And so I think we forget about the perception. And before I move on from that, I'm also remembering right before my mom died, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her. And at that point, which is 15 years ago, I can't believe I'm still struggling with this. I said to her, you know, what should I be? I don't know. I'm kind of lost. Should I be a minister? Should I be a teacher? Should I be a musician? And then she just paused and looked at me and said, just be yourself. And so I think that brings things back around to what you're saying. We can think about our perspective, but we're going to be focused on the people in front of us and the things that are happening. And it's really them that perceives us in their own way that we can't control.

Nithin: 18:21

Yeah, I mean, uh to wrap it up and look at a little bow, it's sort of like when you hear about like that whole 80-20 rule thing. You know, you should focus on 80% of the stuff that's important to your business and not the 20% kind of thing. Do you know what I'm talking about? The 80-20 rule? I haven't heard that. Explain. So the 80-20 rule in business is is the Pareto principle. So it's the idea that 80% of what happens comes from the effects of business come from 20% of the causes. So the most impactful 20% of your efforts achieve the most significant results. But what I find is if you take the inverse of thought of that of the effects of things, if you can get 80% of the way there, 80% is enough for people to recognize, oh, that's Malcolm, not Jeff, or that's Malcolm, not Christine, or Malcolm, not Caleb, Malcolm, not John. Right. You you know what I mean? So as long as you look sort of like you, you look like 80% of you, people go, okay, I know who that is. Yeah.

Malcolm: 19:37

Or that's that's like actually when I used to be at the school, we had this huge property where I could look really far away. And I remember the first time I could realize, even though this person looked like an ant to me size-wise, I could tell who it was by their physical mannerisms, right?

Nithin: 19:58

Yeah. So that 80% of the effects to me is the vibes that were all created from the 20% of you. And that 20% of you is that core essence that defines you. So that's who you identify as an individual, your your ideologies, your principles, your mannerisms.

Malcolm: 20:21

How about the connections you make with the people too, right?

Nithin: 20:24

But but this the things that influence everything is that those are the they're the resident anchors that find sync with other people. But how they can identify you at the distance is the general picture of you. That's why like when you go into a crowd and someone looks like a friend of yours, you can make a mistake and it's not your friend. Right. Because at a distance it looks like it's 80% of your buddy. It's like, oh, that might be your buddy. Let me go check because I want to go hang out with them. Does that make sense?

Malcolm: 20:51

Yeah.

Nithin: 20:52

So when you realize that you shouldn't be mad at someone because they don't notice that you got your haircut, because maybe the haircut wasn't enough to be more than a 20% difference. Yeah. So it changes that 80% perception, except for like when you used to do haircuts where you'd go from like red hair to black hair, from a lot of hair to like basically bald, you know, you would go to these extremes that change your whole essence, right? So that it would change the 80%. But most people, it's like, oh, I trimmed like half an inch. How didn't you notice I got a haircut today? It's like, because it still looks like the same way you brush and part your hair and stuff, that's why. Right. Don't get mad at me. You know, it's like, oh, didn't you notice I wore a new necklace? I'm like, your necklace is like 1% of everything going on here. How the hell am I going to notice that crap? Do you want me to be that creepy and notice that crap about you? Or do you just want me to go? I sort of vibe like you being in the room, like I dig it. So we're cool because you're here. Great. Good talk. You know what I mean?

Malcolm: 21:48

Yeah, and I think the importance of what you're saying, at least for me, lately at my age, is those imperfections that get you down. You just you've got to let them go and realize whatever you're noticing about yourself that you don't like, either people are not noticing that because they recognize your essence, or it really doesn't have a significant effect on how you present yourself.

Nithin: 22:14

Like your facial hair, and I'll give you this one. This one really screwed me up today. So two days ago is my birthday. We did sort of birthday cake right before this, right now, because of timing and whatever nonsense. My nephew's 11, but like one of his best friends is over, this kid Elliott, who's 11. And I walk into the room and he's holding my newest nephew, Dylan, who's like six weeks old. And he's like, Oh, sir, are you the grandpa? And I'm like, The grandpa? Excuse you? The grandpa? And my sister starts laughing. She's like, I told you. And then my mom walks in the room and like, I told you to shave that beard off. Because like my beard's turning a lot more gray. Yeah. And then my brother heard this, he because he just walks in the room and he's laughing. And he goes, So who do you think's older? And the kid's like, What do you mean? It's like, oh, he's younger than me. And the kids just jaw dropped. And my brother couldn't stop laughing. I'm like, F all of you guys. You guys suck. You know? And the reality is, is I downplay that if I let the stubble grow. There's a lot of gray now in my beard. Right. And even the central part of the beard around my chin is mostly shifted to gray versus black. It does have an older vibe. If I don't trim and whatever. And if I shave that part, you don't see the gray. I definitely look younger because my skin is thankfully still, you know, not looking like wrinkly and scaly, like I'm a blizzard, you know, in the desert or something.

Malcolm: 23:33

Well, here's here's the other problem. I've known you for a long time now, and I think it was what is it, around 2006 or 7. We went we did this whole diet plan and you lost a lot of weight, and that was the skinniest I've ever seen you, but you've always held yourself like this wise old sage to the point that people called you Yoda. And no matter what physical shape you are in, gray hair or dark hair, I think it's you you seem really like an old soul and like a wise dude with a beard that would be on top of a mountain offering advice.

Nithin: 24:10

Oh my god, just getting called sir these days is so ridiculous. I'm like, great, I'm the old guy now. I'm like, are you kidding me?

Malcolm: 24:19

Well, what do you guys what do you think about the whole age thing? Because when I was working at the school, you know, I get along with everybody, no matter what age they are. And I was, I think I was the third to oldest person there. And I would be talking to kids and co-workers, but then I'd go into the bathroom and look in the mirror and be like, oh my God, who is that old guy? And then I start thinking about like, how am I coming off to everybody else? Because most of my co-workers are in their 30s. I think a lot of people really get hung up on that because they forget how they look, whether they like it or not, right?

Nithin: 24:54

Yeah, I mean, I was in a unique situation. When I moved to California and I was working at Yamaha at the time, my team, we had brought in a kid at the time, was like 25. I was like 36, 37 at the time. I had a guy in his late 40s, early 50s, and a guy in his early 60s on my team. And so we had a big gap of stuff. And the the biggest thing I had to edge out of all of our dialogue for the the older guys on the team and myself was not in calling this dude the kid. And I actually had to change it to personas on our team. And I would tell him, look, when I refer you to this the kid, I'm not calling you a kid because you're young. I'm calling you the kid because it's your job to give me the perspective of people your age and 10 years younger than you, and feed that into the conversation, whether you agree with it personally or not, because we need that market sentiment to affect our decision making when we're developing new products or new campaigns. Right. Because you know for sure these older dudes, as much as I love those guys, they're so set in their ways, they're not going to think any way but themselves.

Malcolm: 25:58

Well, and they're their brain is going to be set on an old model. And I think a lot of us, as we get older, we we don't realize how quickly the world is changing. And like you said, like young people, they have this brand new, fresh approach that we we need for balance.

Nithin: 26:14

Well, it's it's not just the old model as it is. When you're in business, just like you at the school, you're like, I'm good at this. At least you you thought you were good at it because the teachers and the students and the parents validated it. Right. So you you go, my process works. Why do I have to care about someone else's process or perspective? I've been doing it for 10 years. Well, in 10 years, a lot of things have changed. And it doesn't mean that there aren't new things that could help improve your process. So the reason I had these personas and I allowed these other two guys on my team because they're already 10 years apart, so they're already a generation apart themselves, and they were both at least 10 to 15 years old older than me. The great thing about it was they could spit these character types where I wouldn't have to have them stretch. But because I was also mentoring this newest employee of mine who was younger than me, and it was like his entry-level marketing position, I wanted to teach him how to see problems the way I do, which is not from my perspective more often, and learning to value and shift how you solve a problem based on the value of who your target customer is. And and why that matters in this situation is you just set your identity around this is who I am, Malcolm the teacher guy.

Malcolm: 27:29

Right.

Nithin: 27:29

And and as we said before, you sort of have to have a funeral for who you were. Not the essence of who you were, not the causes that made you that great person in effect as a teacher, but the embodiment of that exact identity is no longer in existence. So you need to mourn it so you can move on from it.

Malcolm: 27:50

Right.

Nithin: 27:51

And in some ways, it's weird. When you have a death of in the family, like as significant as someone like your mom was on your life, you sort of a lot of people don't realize that the funeral is for the people, not for the person that dies. Right. And when you're mourning that person that you lost the most, you forget that your job isn't about mourning their loss as much as it is mourning the lack of that existing relationship being dead now.

Malcolm: 28:20

Right.

Nithin: 28:20

As far as part of your life's identity. Like if your mom did Sunday dinners, that's not happening anymore. Right. If your mom always made cookies at Christmas and New Year's and birthdays, that part and that little piece in that way, even if someone else, if you have a kid, picks up the mantle and learns her recipes, they're gonna be doing it slightly their worst. So it's gonna be different. There'll be an essence of it, but it's different. Right. So it's healthy to actually mourn the fact that that is gone so you can move on. And then realize that the core of you is still there, which means there's tons of opportunity. Because the core of you, that 20% of you, created all of this magic when you decided to focus your energies on being Malcolm the teacher guy. Right. Because before that, you were Malcolm the young adult aid guy that helped people with the behavioral problems, right? The behavioral specialist guy. Right. And then before that, you were Malcolm the minister guy who's like, I'm gonna help you on your spiritual journey. And you were focused on college age people because that's who you you know more got along with. I mean, oddly enough, that's how we became really good friends. Right. When I was definitely the last person that was gonna be any near any of that crap. What an interesting rabbit hole of life that turned me into. Holy crap. You know, I'd say I'd get rid of it, but I sort of like the craziness of my mind now. I just wish I could have those years back.

Malcolm: 29:42

But all these things that you're mentioning are things, you know, things from our past are things we can draw from as we go through the metamorphosis of changing in into whatever is next.

Nithin: 29:57

And and remembering that that core. Of you with focus can turn into lots of great things. Just because you got used to this habit of being focused on this one thing, the hardest part about that is breaking it off and basically retraining you to go from a state of comfort into a state of being tenacious and pushing through difficulties again. Because you have to, it's like a butterfly, right? The caterpillar goes into this coon, this chrysalis kind of thing, right? Do you think the caterpillar will live if it doesn't push hard enough to break through the cocoon? Right. And just stay in the cocoon forever? Or does the caterpillar have to actually start pushing at these walls slowly until it breaks these walls open over a period of time to come out a butterfly?