Don't Be Average w/ Jeff & Javon

What happens to a team, organization, or culture when its leadership settles for "good enough"?

Welcome back to Wave Maker Leadership, presented by the Ride The Wave Foundation! In Episode 2, co-hosts Jayvon Blue and Jeff Fisher dive headfirst into a critical yet often ignored issue: The Dangers of Mediocre Leadership.

When leaders lack intentionality, standards begin to weaken, gossip spreads, accountability disappears, and the culture quietly drifts into dysfunction. A mediocre leader doesn't just hold an organization back—they leave high-performing individuals stranded and hold their entire team hostage in the space between "dying and thriving."

In this episode, we break down: • Defining Mediocre Leadership: What it means to be a passive leader who tolerates dysfunction and lacks a standard for excellence. • The Cost of Cultural Drift: How average leadership destroys momentum, drains energy, and weakens standards in businesses, churches, and communities. • Strategic Intention: Why true leadership requires a clear vision and a active strategy to develop the people who trust you with their time and skill sets. • The Power of Words: Understanding your responsibility as a leader to speak life into your team rather than allowing passive neglect to cause harm. • Handling Elite Talent: Why average leaders panic when high performers enter the room—and how to build an environment where greatness can flourish.

Leadership is a massive responsibility, and average effort will never produce extraordinary results. Whether you're leading a company, a ministry, a community project, or your own household, this conversation will challenge you to raise your standards and lead with purpose.

💙 Connect with Ride The Wave Foundation: • Website: ridethewave.org • Mission: Empowering communities, championing mental wellness, and developing intentional leaders through education, mentorship, and action.

Enjoyed this episode? Don't forget to subscribe, leave a 5-star rating, and share this with a leader in your network who is ready to step out of average and into excellence!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You have to be intentional. And I would even throw in the word strategic, have strategic intention on where it is that you're going, the vision that you have in place, but also what are you going to do to develop those people that are under you. When we're talking about leadership and when we're talking about environment, somebody is trusting you with their time and their skill set.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

A great leader is somebody that is there, fosters their people on and off the field. It's constantly reminding the vision that creates that amazing culture.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

You are a leader that is average. Your team that's too higher, you're so used to them being below greatness that now when somebody elite comes in, you don't know what to do with them. When a leader lacks in a certain area, whether that's goal setting, whether that's making sure the vision is plain, you're giving permission for everybody that follows you to do what you just did. And you know, honestly. Hey, what's going on, guys? Welcome back to episode two of Wave Maker Leadership. I am the host, Jayvon Blue, with Jeff Fisher. What's going on, guys? Hope all is well. Let's go, let's go. So, guys, listen, this is episode two. And let me tell you, episode one was great. If you haven't watched it, please go down to the show notes and click the link for the first episode so you can see what we were talking about as far as the heart of leadership, right? And what we're gonna be talking about today is going to not blow your mind, but it's gonna make you think about something when it comes to leadership and who you are submitting under to. So I'm ready to get into it, Jeff. Are you ready to get into it, bro? Dive in, man. Let's go. Let's do it. Let's do it. So, guys, what we're gonna be talking about today is the dangers of mediocre leadership or the dangers of average leadership. And I feel like this is very important, especially within society today, as more people are starting teams, starting different things within culture. Um, we have to know what are the dangers of leadership that is not helping develop the people that are under them. So let's get into it, let's dive into it, and let's have a good episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Absolutely. Thank you so much. You know, what you're talking about, average leadership, all that. It's it's like cultural drifts, essentially. Yeah. That's how I look at it. You know what I mean? So negative wins happen, uh, gossip spreads, accountability, it disappears, uh, standards weakens. What I wrote down. You know, some things like that. When leaders aren't intentional, it just drifts off. And there's energy to every room, really. Yeah. So if you're average, you could leave that room dormant if you're not inspiring other people. And it's not gonna leave lead to productivity.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

That's listen, you you you said something about intention. And I think when it comes to leadership, and also when it comes to the dangers of average leadership, right? Yeah. You have to be intentional. And I would even throw in the word strategic, have strategic intention on where it is that you're going, the vision that you have in place, but also what are you going to do to develop those people that are under you, that have said, you know what, you are the person that I want to submit my time to. I want to submit my skills to. And I think that's a huge part of when we're talking about leadership and when we're talking about environment, somebody is trusting you with their time and their skill set. So I think something, before we dive deeper, because this is going to be a good one, guys. It's going to be a good one. Before we dive deeper, Jeff, let's talk about the definition that we have as far as like mediocre leadership or average leadership. I put, I put here, guys, and really write your notes. Note takers are moneymakers. Let's get it, right? A mediocre leader is one who is passive, doesn't have a taste for excellence, tolerates dysfunction, and keeps his team sitting in the between of dying and thriving. Guys, when I tell you stuff like that is in the midst of culture today, organizations, um, churches, schools. There are leaders that are not putting their head in the game and treating this with intention for the sake of other people's lives. What do you think about that, Joe?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yeah, I think it's, you know, I think that people don't realize their responsibility or what their power really is. You know, at times, you may not even realize what you're saying or you're going through your emotions, but your words have power. Everything you say matters. So you could speak life or death into people. And if you don't care enough to, I think, foster or to build up your people, and you're just an average leader. Um, when it comes to churches, when it comes to politics, when it comes to war, certain things like that, an average leader kills people or can, you know, because you know, a church is trying to save lives, right? Trying to get out there, save spirits, military, anything like that, yeah, with an average leader, it's not gonna be good.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

What's crazy is I'll put this down, guys, because Jeff just reminded me of something. So I'm gonna go to it now. When we're talking about leadership, right, we have to understand that there's three levels of leadership. And this is just my aspect of it. You can have whatever you want, right? But there's three levels of leadership that I think everybody should take into a framework when you commit to something, when you wake up in the morning and you're going out. The three levels of leadership is yourself, your household, and your extended assignment, right? What do those mean? Yourself is your mind, your body, and your spirit. Your household could be your spouse, your kids, your family, and your extended assignment is your job, your title. You can be a pastor, CEO, community, whatever the case may be. But each one of these are a gift from God so that you can bring greatness into the earth. When you become average in these three responsibilities, people die, lives are never fulfilled, and your leadership will create stagnation and bondage in the lives of other people. And this is why those three levels of leadership is so important when it comes to you not being average, but becoming great. Think about that.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

No, I think that's uh a good way of putting it. You kind of you need those components for sure. You know, anything when it comes to just average, I think that it quietly starts to build a distrust ultimately within the culture or within the employees. So, you know, that's then a leader could have mispromises. They could uh, you know, not follow up on things they say. Communication is so key too. You could say you're gonna do something and don't now, granted, things happen, you know, if someone's really going through a hard time or they really don't like their job and you're average and you just let it go and you don't get to the root of the problem. I mean, there could be employees that become disgruntled as well. Um, shifting standards all the time is another problem. It's just that invisible leadership. Somebody that's not there, doesn't show up, come to the office, kind of maybe their second business, something like that. You know what I mean? So teams don't distrust leaders who fail. They distrust leaders who disappear.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Wow. Wow. See, we can't just go past that negative leaders who disappear. I want you to dive deeper into that. Like, what does that look like when we're talking about somebody is leading, right? They have people under them, and the people are expecting their leader to lead, but he doesn't lead. Like, talk about the disappearing actors, they're disappearing in their selves internally.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

They're disappearing into the things that they want, they need maybe potentially. Um, looking at just their land. So, in a sense, it's uh driven more self-potentially, or this is my vision, these are the things. So I need people in place to see that through, and they're kind of cogs the wheel, essentially. You know what I mean? So a disappearing leader is not someone who's present, they're just checking the boxes. Now, a great leader is somebody that is there, fosters their people on and off the field, is constantly reminding the vision, also self-developing and professionally developing everybody through workshops, bringing speakers in that are real motivating, things like that, that creates that amazing culture. And, you know, honestly, um separately to this guy, if you go to www.ridewave.org, it's a little bit attached, something that I'm passionate about too. Um, you know, there's great ways to segue into how we could kind of cross over into everybody's lives, this type of leadership. And I think that if if people have those skills, it's just beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah. And it it it ties in, guys, with what it is that we believe in this form of leadership. And one of those is conscious leadership. What Jeff just talked about is something that's very important when it comes to being conscious in your leadership, basically being present, right? That's one of the wave maker principles. Be present with the person that you're leading, right? We we we stand on something um very dearly that has changed so many lives, and that is the slogan that we have, which is the path is to the person, right? And if the path is to the person, you have to be there and be conscious with them and also remain a servant in that. So there's there's there's something that you said that is very powerful, and you said the word distrust, right? I think when it comes to leadership, especially when it comes to mediocre leadership, they don't understand that there is power when the team trusts you. Now, people who don't really care for that, right, you can see the fruit in how things are functioning with the the environments that they're leading. Yeah. But I want us to talk just a little bit on why having your team trust you is so important. Because for me, guys, when it comes to if I'm giving my time and I'm giving my skill set and I'm giving everything that I have to somebody who wants it, I'm giving it because I trust that you will take it to the place where you want us to go. And if you if you don't take us to that place, whatever that goal is, if we never get there and now you're you're you're swaying in different areas, right? You're on a ship and you have no GPS, you have no navigation, and we're just going with the drift of the waters. I cannot trust you that you will get us to shore. I can't trust you that you would get us to the dock because the fruits of your leadership is not benefiting us within the group. So, Jeff, talk about the the, I would guess, I would say the sorrows of a leader that a team doesn't trust.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

I mean, they'll receive no communication about if something, if the team doesn't respect or maybe they're even fearing the leader. Um, you're they're just gonna tell that person what they want to hear. You're not gonna get the real information. Like, I would rather, even if I didn't like it, even if it I felt a certain way, you know, sometimes they'll make it annoyed up front, but after some thought, after thinking about it, calming down. Maybe there's something that I might have been missing. I always appreciate open transparency with people.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Open transparency is the best. Like authenticity trumps everything for me. So even if I don't like it, I just appreciate and respect somebody that's authentic. But the pitfalls of somebody that's average are are gonna be um confused messaging. They're gonna be uh high turnover, they're gonna be reactive spending, confused, oh, excuse me, weak brand identity. Trust equals profitability.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

You said something. You say a weak brand identity. Yes. Dive deeper, brother.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Yeah, I mean, you're you're maybe not gonna invest in certain things just because uh you want to fill in a box or you want to make money, but like maybe you won't look into the quality aspects.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

It's it it's honestly, I would say when it comes to weak brand identity, you're gonna have like a corny type setup.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

It's just gonna look all right. This day and age, this day and age is so hard because everything people have such short attention spans and are attracted to quality branding. And with everything, especially with AI, everything's so oversaturated now. So if you have branding that's a little weak and it's you've been around for a while, you don't plan to upgrade it, it just shows you the leader's heart, essentially. That they don't care too much about the vision.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

But at the same time, so they don't care, they don't care about the vision, and probably they don't even have one. Yeah. And if they do, they don't even believe in it in the capacity that it will allow them to keep moving. Because the truth of the matter is I think weak, weak branded identity comes from a leader that doesn't understand that they lack confidence, right? So when you don't have the confidence to really build up your brand so that people can know you, see you, and understand you, then it's just gonna be weak, which now comes into who you are because that identity piece plays a huge part with your brand. Your brand doesn't start just because you have a logo on a billboard. Your brand is do you show up on time? Your brand is how how do you look when you walk in the room? Do you do you shake everybody's hand when you walk in a room? This is core things when it comes to branding, right? But also, do you have a brand that is so solid that people want to buy into it as well? And I think if people don't want to buy into your vision, you're doing this thing wrong.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

That's a good lesson right there for me. I, you know, because you're right. You're you're you're representing your brand at all times. All times. Uh, you know, on and off the field.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Always.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So that's a very good point. It's a lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Because your brand is the DNA of everything, right? So when when when I see McDonald's, right? I don't care if I'm in Texas, I don't care if I'm in Jamaica, it doesn't matter. I'm expecting the same brand, the same burger, the same fries, the the taste, right? And also the colors. Why? Because I trust the brand. And if I'm really hungry, I know what to expect if I consume this brand. Yeah. You get what I'm saying? So if a people, if if if people don't know what they're going to expect when they see your brand, it's time to go back to the drawing board.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

I also think average leaders don't, they tend to not um delegate to the proper individuals that have the experience as well. So they may try to learn themselves, but sometimes it's it's finding out where your limitations are, what your skill skill set is as a leader, and then filling in that gap with either other people or software or anything like that. So I think that maybe people that have poor branding, they're taking it on themselves, but maybe that they should hire somebody else to do that that buys into their vision, that has those skills already, and that could produce it. There's a lot of times people just hold it close to the chest. Oh, I could do it on my own, pick myself up by uh my bootstraps. I think that's average leadership too.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yeah. Which is not being synergit. Which is average leadership is very prideful. It is. It's very prideful because, you know, we talked about this on the last episode, where it's where if you can't accept help, like you are leading bad in that area of your life. You get what I'm saying? And something, something that I put down here, guys, is mediocre leadership doesn't look at themselves when things go wrong. They blame the team or they allow the ship to sink. Right? Because what you're saying, Jeff, is so powerful because before they even get to all of that hiring teams and hey, we need somebody else that's better than us, you have to even be aware that something is even wrong. There are many mediocre leaders that are out here that don't even believe that where they are, the situation that they are in is even wrong.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

How do leaders slip into that, into um average without realizing it?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

They don't have a clear goal as to why they're here. So it's a goal. It's always a goal. And you think that has to be written? Always. A goal, let me put it here. A goal not written down is just a wish. A goal not written down is just a wish, guys. You have to understand that your goal, right? Really think about this. Your goal is the one thing that will be the exit plan out of your past. If you have that goal written down and you wake up every single day and you see that goal, you digest that goal, that goal one day is going to be the exit plan out of your past or your current situation. So when a person doesn't have a goal, and then number two, if they don't really believe in it, the team is not going to believe in that as well. That's the first step is belief. Always. Belief. Always. Yeah, absolutely. Are you truly convicted?

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, yeah. A dream without execution is an illusion. So on top of that, once that goal is set and in writing, it means nothing.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

It's not executed. So talk about let's let's let's spend like a few minutes on goals. Yeah. A leader that doesn't have a goal that's clear. How how detrimental is that to the growth of the team?

SPEAKER_02 18:03

I think it really it provides holes in the ship that are unseen. And also you're you're losing people overboard cause a lot of churn because you're not motivating people enough, or you're given bits and pieces, maybe, and not communicating that. And also it leaves room for assumptions for people where communicate, uh communication lacks, doubt and assumption fills in. So you're not communicating the entire vision over. There's holes in it.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

What do you expect? That's your backbone. The culture is everything. To me, the most important thing is that, and everything else is secondary. Because once you have that, the people are bought in, they're gonna produce the best.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Yeah. Yeah. And be happy. That's true. That's true. I have this, I have this for framework because there's some people out there that's probably like, man, I never really heard about goals or I did hear about them, but I've never written them down. Right. And some people get stuck, especially when they're coming into leadership and they're like, man, how do I get my team to the next level? How do we get to that point where we can start really looking at our success as something that's worth doing? This is an exercise for the audience out there. I want you to write down A type goals, B type goals, and C type goals. Right? And with these type goals, this is what you're gonna do for each of these goals. An A-type goal is I know I can get it done. You know in your heart of hearts that you can get this goal done no matter what. You probably don't need as much help because you know for sure, no, all I have to do is this, and this is gonna get done. That's an A-type goal, right? A B type goal is this will stretch me. Usually that's gonna take you about 90 days to make that thing happen, right? It's not gonna take you a week. It's not even probably won't even take you a month, but that B type goal is gonna stretch everything in you, and you're gonna have to have some consistency and some belief in order to keep the wheels running. Then you have a C-type goal. The C type goal is I am so desperate for God in this goal. I don't know how this is going to happen. Let's just say you want to reach the Nobel Peace Prize, right? You're like, man, I'm trying to get the Nobel Peace Prize. I want to make it happen, but I don't know how this is going to happen. This is a goal that is so far out there, like you are aiming for the stars, right? And this goal is going to require something outside of yourself. So, guys, if you're ever in that space, like, man, how do I goal set? A type goals, B type goals, C type goals.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, I mean, all uh matches up to why we're sitting in these seeds. So I completely I get that. Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's so important. And you had mentioned it on the pasha as well, that you only could go to a certain height in any success or any leadership before you hit the spiritual. Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. You know, so that is something that that far-off goal that you have, because you do have it, and everyone does, everybody's fingerprint is different, all that. So within you, that goal that you keep putting off, or that you ignore that voice, it's okay if you've done that. You could rebuild from now, just start fresh. But that belief that Jayvon spoke about, keep pushing. If you keep going, it'll open up, fruits will work out, but it's gonna be very difficult along the way. And um, I know we were talking about goals, but just scale back to trust.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Let's get it.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

How do you feel like a leader who has a little bit of dysfunction could build back trust within an organization that is a bit average that's gone a little bit off?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

You gotta be proactive. You gotta make that decision that this is where you wanna be. And once you make that decision that this is where you wanna be, you gotta go all in. You gotta make tough decisions, do you think, too? Always. Every decision is tough. Culture, fire, higher, you know, like I mean. But it's it's so when you're playing the game, right? There there are so many people not playing the game. Yeah. Right. So that now this is crazy. Because I love this subject so much because now we're talking about something where we're including high achievers versus just mediocre people in the same atmosphere.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

How do you even coach that? How do you even, how do you even lead that? Because what starts to happen is if you are a leader that is average, your team that you hire, you're so used to them being below greatness that now when somebody elite comes in, you don't know what to do with them. So now you're actually quenching their skill set and their assets that they can bring to the team because you don't know how to direct them. So ultimately what starts to happen is if that, if that individual that is a high achiever, if they don't have the identity of knowing themselves, they're going to now belittle to the level of the environment that the leader is is cultivating. And that's horrible, bro.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah. And I also think a good leader would try to learn. Try to learn and be humble enough to do so. So I learned so much from you. You know what I mean? And I'd be open to so not having some may have a little bit of jealousy of that up front. Oh, this skill set, this person is gonna work their way up. Yeah. Anything like that as a leader. So you make a really good point. You're you're not bringing the best out of your employee. Causes churn, you're gonna lose money. Then you're gonna have to hire somebody else. Then you're gonna have to have the cost of training. The wheel continues to go around, and there goes your money. But foster that golden goose.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah. You really well, with it, man, like average, average leaders always always have a focus on I don't want to lose this person. And they only do that because they're like, man, if I lose this person, everything is gonna go down. No, the only reason you're fearful about losing that person is because you don't know how to develop more of him. Right. So if you're looking at yourself and you're like, man, I wouldn't even hire myself, but thank God that somebody else that is better than coming in.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I'm not good at everything. I'll admit that. So it's having an understanding of what that is, and sometimes it'll cross over and then filling in those gaps, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

Yeah. But it's it's does that leader, well, is that leader, I would say, really honing in on personal development? You get what I'm saying? Do you see that leader that is lacking in this area? Are they actually striving to become better? If the answer is no, you're only going to go as far as that leader. I think it's a direct reflection of stagnantation or stagnant, being stagnant. There's a glass ceiling. Yeah, there is a glass ceiling. Right? So when you're looking at your development, your spiritual development, your personal development, you can't go past that. Yeah. This is why it's a it's an ongoing development process. Yeah. And even when we look at success, I learned it this way. Success is a moving target. Yeah. It's never like, oh, I reached this and then I don't. No, it's never what is expected. Bro, it's always moving. Because the moment, listen to this guest, well, audience, the moment you hit that goal, the moment you hit the goal that you've worked so hard for, I promise you it's going to get old. And then your mind is going to be like, man, what else is out there? What else can we do? What other business can we start? Because success is a moving target. So don't ever get wrapped up in the end goal. Get wrapped up in the process of always becoming. All right.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, that makes sense to me. Yeah, it does. It's um but also know the finish line. Know the end is near with that vision. So know where you want to go too. You know, the hardest part of people when they run a marathon is when they're in the middle. When they're at that middle part of the marathon where the finish line's a bit far away and there's pain in the middle. Yeah. So, you know, if running that, having that knowledge of that vision that you're going towards is very, very important. And to have an understanding of your compass while you're navigating the ocean and all its waves, um, that's your your point. So it's very, very important to, I think, intentionally self-develop, like Jayvon Matt or said, and also, you know, really get to the bottom of the vision, write it down. At least start, but mind was always moving. It changed. It changes. It's not what the goal? Yeah, like the vision originally had changed and started to progress. So I would also not limit the vision as well if it expands.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Well, the the vision should rarely change, but the goals should, right? So there's there's so you have you have goals, right? But then within those goals, you have assignments that you have to do. Assignments change, it could change daily, it could change weekly, right? Because if you're starting a business, for my business people out there, if you're starting a business, you may have to wear every single hat when you first start. That's just the reality of the situation.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

That is.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

So, but but I will always say most people um start really as like self-employed business owners, I would say. And this is this is this is what I mean by that. Somebody that's self-employed versus somebody that is a business owner is two different things, guys. A business owner can actually come into the game with capital and hire a whole team of people, and they never have to do that. Somebody that's self-employed now picks up on all those hats, and now they're now working in the business and on the business as well. So that plays a huge part. But when it comes to certain things, man, um there's there's there's something that I want to get back to and then go forward about the mediocre leader. And I put here because this this thing of feelings actually triumphs a lot of like action. And I put mediocre leaders lead with their feelings more than they lead with conviction in their hearts, and their head is not in the game, and the health of the team is no longer their priority. Jeff, when we're talking about priorities when it comes to leadership, what do you think should be the main priority of that leader?

SPEAKER_02 28:41

The main priority should be to build your people up. And the path is to the person. That's who we are, so that's what we represent. We'll always go that route. You know, so that is where the ROI people have to stop. Stop with all the, you know, the technology. They I get it, you know, it's all streamlined and everything. But you know, I think that anytime you're helping somebody to better their lives, that's when that loyalty is gonna come too. Yeah, so an average leader would neglect that.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

There you go. Build that people up. Yeah, but let's talk about something real quick since since you just said it. Let's talk about average leaders that don't develop people. That don't okay that don't develop them. Yeah. Listen to this, guys. It's powerful. A culture flatlines when people aren't growing, and signs a leader isn't developing their team is this right here. Really write this down. Task delegated without purpose, no conversation about personal goals, little coaching or any challenge at all, and people are kept in survival mode. I wanna I wanna pinpoint on something right here with the first one. It says task delegated without purpose. This happens when you become more focused on being busy than actually being productive. And Jeff, talk about that. Like, why do you think it is such a huge deal that tasks cannot be delegated without purpose? Like, no vision, no goal, no nothing. Like, why is that such a big deal when it comes to the growth of the of not the growth, but developing the team?

SPEAKER_02 30:27

It's just you're going through the motions, you're just pushing the buttons. You know, you I think that everybody's just working as a component to whatever it is, but there's no passion. There's no, you know, you go to work and there's no what's the end result of the work that I'm doing. You know, I think people may feel that, but a true leader could inspire them and will let them know what the end result. I always thought, like, for example, I worked for Semco Aerospace. They did um crew mass slides, rafts. And every five years they would have to be overhauled out of an aircraft. So like a Delta aircraft, you know, we you have to certify them, change the parts, all that kind of stuff. And um there are the fire, like these fire uh things are these like bombs that would go off if a fire is in the engine, explode and you know, take out the fire with foam.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:19

But it's the guys that are doing the work on that, to them, it's average. But you guys are saving lives. If this doesn't work, or when it does, it'll put out a fire. The end result to safety equipment, in the end, what you have your hands on, the work that you're producing, the fruits of your labor, there could be people that could be in the ocean and survive because of what you did. Now, nobody, everybody would just go to work average and just not do that. So, so it's really trying to extract and provide.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

That's good, man. That's good. You mentioned something with passion, right? Um, I actually learned this from Darius Daniels. Shout out to him and Daniels then. I want I want to just say this as far as far as like clarity, guys. Like the difference between passion, talent, and purpose, right? Because people get those mixed up and now they're doing something that they're not they're not even supposed to be doing, and then now those people are in leadership, right? Write this down, guys. Passion equals what you want to do. Talent is what you're able to do, but purpose is what you're born to do. Your purpose is what you're born to do, but it is not what you want to do all the time. And that's for anybody that that is really diving deep in leadership, Jeff. Like, there's there's there's times that the Lord has called me to do something, and I'm like, Lord, I don't want to do this. Yes. I don't want to do this. I understand. I don't, I don't want to be around the people. I don't even want to be around the environment. I just want to do a lot of times, watch this. I want to do what I'm talented at, what I'm skillful at. Why? Because I can control it. Yeah. I can get better at it. Yeah. And that's where I like to thrive versus man, I got to do the thing that, man, I was really born to do this. But a lot of times, the nuances is, man, they're in environments that I don't want to be in. You get what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Yeah, I do get what you're saying. Uh I get what you're saying. I think that, like, I don't know. For me, I've crossed a bit of a barrier with that. You know, I'm pretty open to jumping in, diving in. I think that taking on this venture, I've stuck my neck out so far. You have. It got cut a couple of times, but I don't care. Like, I just kept going. So I've like almost gone through the scars to where any call almost you know, and it takes certain something to push through that. I think that the average leader doesn't go through that. They don't cross that barrier, shatter that paradigm.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

They don't put in the I feel like I feel like the average leader stays at a low level of leadership. Well, not a low level, I would say like a tier, um different tier of leadership, which is management mode. How do you feel about comfortability for that too? Well, hold on. Let's talk about that management mode. Because you spark something. That's why that's the only reason I'm saying this, is because like when you're supposed to be driving the ship, when you're supposed to be like really driving this thing, and you're in management mode, meaning you're just making sure nothing breaks rather than no, we need to produce more. That that that hinders the growth of the team. It hinders the development of the person. You get what I'm saying? I do. Where where it's like, okay, yes, you manage certain things, but you don't stay there. You can't stay there because then you would be a nice leader and not a leader that somebody can trust to get them out of something if we were to get into something. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

So yeah, they never rise above the emotional ceiling. You know, and uh that's pretty much wrapped up in a package, you know. Yeah, it's the key.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yep, yep. The the second thing that we had on here is no conversation about personal goals. I mean, this is this is heavy. When your leader is not talking to you about your personal goals, yeah, you can basically bet, guys, that they probably don't really have any, or they probably don't have something that is really convicting them to the point. So like a lack of direction on the leader side. 100%. 100%. I said they don't see this as a priority for the overall good of the mission. So when you don't address your team about their personal goals, why do you expect them to hit yours like out of the park?

SPEAKER_02 35:56

You get what I'm saying? Yeah, that like high maintenance or not high maintenance, high standards, but you are not providing high. So you have high standards for other people at your job while you're not keeping the standards of your culture up high.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

The standards of your culture.

SPEAKER_02 36:14

I mean, that is really hypocritical.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

A hundred percent. And people, people feel that. They know not just see it. Yeah, they're like, man, if if my leader isn't hyped up or on fire about his goals, your team is not going to be hyped up or on fire about theirs.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

The air, it gets sucked out of the room. You know, you can feel it in a place nobody talks to each other. They'll be right across from the other office, probably send a little message. I am. This sucks. I might have done that.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yep. No, it is. I said sometimes leaders don't know how to develop. And other times they are afraid that they will get exposed. And basically, what I mean by that is positional leadership. Shout out to John C. Maxwell. He talks about this. Positional leadership is probably the worst level of leadership that you can be at because people are following you because of your name tag, aka your position rather than your actual influence. Right? If I want to hire somebody within my company as like a leader, I think the first thing that I would ask is do you have any evidence of people following you? And what was the fruit of that before I hire you? I want to see evidence of your leadership before I give you the position. Yeah, what kind of mentor, if at all, they were or are. Boom. Things like that are really important. That's a good point. That plays a huge part. Yeah. It does because I want to know the resume. Like, I hate, I hate on job applications where they're like, hey, tell me about yourself. Uh yeah. That doesn't work. No. I would say this. No, I'll give you a list of 20 people and you go talk to them and then come back to me, and then let's have a conversation to see if I'm the right character of leader that you need for your company. Not me telling good things about myself. So you think the process of hiring is outdated? It's ridiculous. It it's it doesn't get the right leaders, it gets the right employees.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

We're gonna do it with the leaders. We're gonna, for us internally, we'll have a different style hiring process. We're gonna create a new one. Taking them to the gym, wave maker hiring process. It's not gonna be like your average process. Yeah. Exactly. Take a play, get to know. And you know, it's like uh uh Vanessa, for example. Shout out Vanessa, we love you.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

What's up, Vanessa?

SPEAKER_02 38:32

We're hoping she comes on the team eventually. Wave outreach, just saying no pressure, no pressure. Having that love, that personal connection will put you in a position to be able to maneuver so many various things. I don't want to say control because you're not if you have a good heart, you're not gonna be able to do that. But there's a respect aspect to it. You're gonna gain someone's respect too. And and if people could look up to you, but I think it also is really important as a straw, a strong leader will always have somebody above them, somebody either uh something that they're work working on to better themselves. So for me, I never want to be the smartest person in the room, or try I'll try to avoid it at all times. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

Be the be the biggest servant in the room, right? I think I think that's the rush that you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Or or the biggest receiver if people are higher level than you.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

But that's the whole thing. Curiosity. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because automatically you're just gonna receive um from the right place, I would say. So it it's yeah, yeah, that that plays a huge part, man. And um, like I put this this this here, little, little coaching or like challenge. I think when it comes to mentorship, and people need to understand this mentorship and coaching is two different things, right? My coach is somebody that I see during game time and practice. My mentor, like real mentorship, and and and I say this all the time that people be like, hey, can you can you help me? Can you mentor me and all this type of stuff? I'm I'm like, you're you're you're in a rush for the wisdom, but you're not in a rush for the process. Yeah. The mentorship will have you getting up at 4 a.m., 5 a.m. in the morning. The mentorship will say, cut this out. The mentorship is more of a commitment, right, than it is just you being on time to practice. It's two different things because it's a lifestyle change that you have to do. And I think when leaders, average leaders, do not challenge and coach their people that they're leading, bro, ultimately, and this is this is what what what hinders the team, ultimately they're gonna find their leader that that will help them. And now you have these conflicting ideologies in one space because they don't trust you.

SPEAKER_02 41:01

Yeah, you need a culture map, a roadmap. Really? Culture map? Culture map, yeah. So when you're navigating the seas, you need your map as the captain. You know, I think so it's important to uh put that forth. And uh, you know, things like as a team leader, morning huddle or huddles.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

What do you think about nice leaders who don't hold standards? They're the worst leaders and they need to get out of position. And this is my reason for that. A nice leader, like, let me step back. Being nice and being kind is two different things. Yeah, a kind person is leading with love. Right. Right? A nice person is very passive and they just want you, right, to be in disagreement. They never want any opposition. So they'll they'll just let you do whatever they want to do for the sake of not offending, for for the sake of not losing you. A kind person is, hey, I love you, but I also respect you. And I also respect myself. So when you have a nice leader, right, and he's just allowing anything to happen because he doesn't want any friction, yeah, there's no standards in that room.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

For the kind leader, how do you um make sure nobody mistakes kindness for weakness? Well, kindness isn't weakness. So so niceness. People may think that that kindness may be. Or they may take it.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

Okay. So because the kind person knows when the kindness needs to be applied. It's not their identity.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

So I'm saying loving tough at times, having that accountability, you know, not just trying to please everybody each time is important.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

It's very important. It's very important. Because love, love is not just this cuddly feeling, love is a power. It is, it's the most powerful force. Literally, like it can overpower hate. It does. You get what I'm saying? It's that more powerful. Yeah. So a leader that loves is one that can literally penetrate a room, even if it's feeling any type of way.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yeah, that radiate positivity. You walk in that room and you can radiate, and you you really do take over in a sense. It's a being, yeah. And it's not pride though. So I think that people or you know, you have to leaders have to understand there's a fine line there. You have to always watch out for. You should be afraid of that, your ego. Um, so it's a series of being connected and a series of being disconnected, you know, for me spiritually. But also looking under the hood, your anchor points, yeah. You know, what's going on? You mentioned self-development, self-reflection is so important and all that.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

You you you just said that, like self-reflection, self-examination, right? Like, I think that's so important because like with me, I'm like, man, do not take any offense to this guy. But but I have something called like a fat bastard series, right? Where where I I'm a Of what I need to fix, but it's not my identity. And this is when it gets real, bro. An average leader doesn't call out what's what's what's about to kill you. They allow you to get to your deathbed and then they will say, I'm here to help you. I'm here to pray for you. And it's like, no, bro, I have to distance myself from you in this area because why for 20 years you never called out when I was leading to diabetes, when I was leading to so much. But now since I'm on my deathbed, you want to lead in the way of prayer or like, oh man, I empathize with you.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

No, where was the preventative prayer?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Where are you? Preventative prayer. So I appreciate the leaders that call out the standard that you should be held at. You get what I'm saying? So I think that plays a huge part in that right there, that conviction, that challenge and that coaching.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

And to take it to Waymaker leadership, sort of within our framework, um, some new developments, uh, CVO, which chief vision officers within larger enterprise organizations, which uh would be essentially somebody that, and I think uh to certain uh extents it exists, but really a different model to enhance it. So, you know, somebody that would be point within an organization that really would head up the vision for the leader, but in tandem, but police it ethically, externally, internally, all that. We'll get deeper into that, guys, as we go and we get more into the leadership program itself. But, you know, um I think the uh average leader they ignore the voices of the team, too. They're not paying attention to what their people are saying, you know.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Or not saying. Oh come on, come on. You have to hear the silent cries of your people. The most dangerous thing that can happen in any relationship is when the other person stops talking. That's dangerous, bro. That's right. Marriage. Oh man, that's my mind and my silence here. That's silence. That's that's the worst. No, you know you need to take action, but you probably just don't know how to. Dude, it's it's it's the realest thing, though. Like, you can't allow the silence to stay because it it takes up every space of the room. You get what I'm saying? So, so I think when you don't hear the silent cries of your people, bro, you there's something wrong with you. You may need a sabbatical and take a step back.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

Yeah, it's a good point. And I think that the maybe it could be lost in the numbers. You know, a lot of people just dive into the process.

SPEAKER_00 46:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:40

And not the people. Process, not the people. There should be a little bit of even some could be more into the the quality and attention to the work and the process and all that, which is great. If you're that type of person, you should get somebody else that could be a manager that could do the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Because you know what, brother? Many people are great at hiding behind work. Yeah. Because if I can hide behind something, then that means that people won't ask questions.

SPEAKER_02 47:06

I also don't have to acknowledge my painting.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

It's the hiding. Acknowledging your pain. You want to know what's powerful about what the Bible talks about healing? They say confess your sins to one another so that you can be healed. Jesus saves, but the healing comes through community. That's very good. That's the powerful thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:29

So when there's a leader that that is not healed, that I'm telling you, that bleeding will get into the team. Yes, you lead while you bleed sometimes, but you don't lead while you're hiding in your pain.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

When you're just, you know, just going through the motions of plugging the leaks without that full scope of vision, goals. Here's where I want to be. Me personally, we have this vision. So the vision is there. It's written right now. I don't foresee it moving. But the goals, I'll do three things, three things each day at a minimum, tasks that I know will lead me to the purpose, no matter what it is. And it could be a small task or it could be a big one, whatever it is, just a minimum of three. I gotta know that today. I've done these few things to align myself that'll put me in a direction to get to the end result. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah. So intention, intentionality. Intentionality is everything, man. I'm telling you. It is when when you don't move with intention, it's like everything around you is respecting the pace that you're going at. So if you're like, man, I don't understand why this isn't moving faster, you're not moving. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. It makes no sense. Yeah. You're you're expecting stuff to move at a different pace, but you yourself, like every leader got to look at themselves.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

And it's hard. You know, it gets tough sometimes when you wanna go against the your disciplines or you wanna relax and go with your feelings of being tired or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

Um, it's tough to motivate. It's tough to self-motivate.

SPEAKER_01 49:11

How do you self-motivate, Jayvon? Motivation is is is not, it doesn't last in hard times. Okay. Discipline does. It's good. Like let that let that sink because this is stuff that I'm saying to myself, guys. Like, there's there's these moments where I'm like, man, like I know I need to get off this weight. I know I need to like get better. Like there, there's a mindset that I have that my body is not catching up with because of motivation.

SPEAKER_02 49:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

I'm looking for the music, I'm looking for the feeling, but the discipline is what overpowers the motivation. You melted. You know what I'm saying? That's we gotta do, yeah. That's that's it. Yeah. But if people would get more disciplined instead of motivated, yeah, things would get done.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Yeah, I'm in this great program. Shout out, guys, to Thomas Williams. If you guys check out Thomas Williams online, go to Winning Edge, Google that. Great guy. And such an amazing program uh they got going on. And that just ties into my point of as leaders, that making sure that you have a community of other leaders that you could ask for advice for, call on, um, you know, have maybe people that are better in certain areas that your industry is in, and have those mentorships in place. And then you know what? It's beautiful because what ends up happening, you gain that knowledge, and then God opens up a door for someone else that may have your starting out with their vision, early stages, you reach back down uh and just pick them right back up. And it's a series of getting, receiving, picking somebody back up, receiving, and and along the way, yeah, a really excellent leader is encouraging, and encouragement is fuel for the spirit. That's the main ingredient to pump up the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Man, I think that ties into this other point we had. Average leaders only lead when it's easy. Yeah. And guys, like, really, really listen to this. High-level leadership requires holding the line when it is inconvenient or uncomfortable. And here's some things that you could take away from this. Average leaders show up late, they avoid conflict, and they only motivate when circumstances are favorable. And also they are making decisions based on moods and not the mission. That's a huge point when it comes to that. Because I'm gonna talk about this right here. When they avoid conflict, avoiding conflict does not make the job better. You're burying something that's gonna come up later on. Yeah, you get what I'm saying? And now the next time it shows up, if you thought that you couldn't like address it the first time, the second time, it's gonna be way worse. You know what I'm saying? So an average leader can't sit back. Well, a great leader can't sit back and just avoid conflict. And also, there you can't make decisions based on your moods, your feelings. It goes back to the discipline.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Yeah, and that's those are things I have to work on as well. Too. I mean, there's definitely I'm tightening up with Thomas and everything. One of the one of the great benefits is that is really um getting your protocols down. And oh, that's good. You know, each morning. Protocols. Yeah. I like that name too. I it wasn't I name is escaping the guy. I'll uh put it in the uh comment section. Uh really great uh program he has. His name is Escaping Me. But he said protocols, and that it really is a good word, right? For that, having that tightened up morning, evening. Not strand for me.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

And that sets the standard. Yeah. See, that right there is basically like the first level of leadership, which is yourself. Yes. You get what I'm saying? Belief in self. So, guys, have some protocols for your life, which is also standards. If you don't have a standard for your life, somebody else will fit you into their standards.

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Man, you'll be just blown in the wind the whole time. Yep.

unknown 52:55

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

You know what I mean? Without any solid uh road.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yeah. And that's how, see, people don't realize that they're on a road of no destination until one day they look up and they're still walking. And they're like, at what point do you reach anything?

SPEAKER_02 53:15

All right, so what if you do? I mean, all of a sudden, yeah, lights out, God's standing right there, and there's a review. What do you think about that? In the end, are you gonna be satisfied? Or if you had your if you have a vision of your best ultimate self, the person that you want to be, you know, you want to be kind, strong, polite, good man, you know, you want to serve, whatever it is. What if you were facing that person at the end? How do you match up?

SPEAKER_01 53:46

How do you match up? I think it's this, man. The the a leader's lack of something is also a team's permission. Right? So when you lack accountability, I don't even know. So I'm gonna I'm gonna break it down this way. When a leader lacks in a certain area, right, whether that's goal setting, whether that's making sure the vision is plain, you're giving permission for everybody that follows you to do what you just did. So the lack, whatever lack that that leader is having in that environment, the team is saying, we can do that too. Setting the example. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Wearing the shoes. Boom. Yeah, and that's tough. That's tough because you know what? All it takes is a little when you establish a certain standard and you are walking in principles, you veer off a little bit, you're held to such a higher standard. See, but there's much more of a residual from that.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

But that's why you can't, you cannot have other people around you as a leader that is leading people. You can't have people around you that won't call you out, that won't challenge you, that won't make you better.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

No, we know what I'm saying. Well, yeah, we've had our moments. And you know what? I actually, in the end, I really appreciate that. You know, I I I don't take offense because I know that we're working towards the same goal. Yeah. And there's been times where I even had like disagreements with regional managers, my other job, and it led to a sale because it creates dialogue to brainstorm, especially. But first, when you're doing that, you have to have a rapport and a relationship established.

SPEAKER_01 55:25

Yeah. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. So, so it's like when it comes to this, man, I just think, guys, do not strive to be average, right? I want you guys to challenge yourself when it comes to stepping into what it is that you want to do. But here you go. Find people who have what it is that you want at the level that you desire to have it. Don't try to find that person in somebody that's mediocre and somebody that's average, because now what you start to do is lower your standards to fit a positional leadership rather than something that's transformational.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

Cut out the cigarettes. Start spending your money on uh uh cigarettes. I don't know. I'm talking to specific people right now, but they'll know who they are. And um, you know, start buying some start spending that money on some things that you could educate yourself with, maybe a program or a book with a workbook or something like that. You know, I think that sometimes leaders or sometimes tend to um average leaders tend to complain about their situations a little bit more. And the worst that one of, you know, you a toxic environment if the leader is complaining about something regarding the company to the employees, like in meetings and things like that. So they don't know who they are and they don't know where they're going. Yeah. And I think that is a good way to cap it off because like that really in itself is you got to know yourself.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

You got to. You got to. Because knowing yourself actually frees you from the bondage of becoming somebody that you're not every single time.

SPEAKER_02 56:53

You think there's any way around it? That's it. It has to be like that. Like what? I'd never come across any other way to obtain it because everybody else seems unhappy if they're going after like money and stuff like that. I mean, I think self-development is a must.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah. It's a standard.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

People that don't, I think, just don't do it or they're based on it.

SPEAKER_01 57:12

I don't I don't know a great leader that doesn't spin. I remember, man, all of the great leaders that I started to listen to, they spent an average, close to $100,000 a year on just personal development.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

They're I'm like, what the high-level leaders, just to be in the room with them, yeah, 25K. Come on, man. What do you think they're the reason the expense is for that? It's because you gotta you gotta f you gotta invest in yourself. You use the word investment. I think that's a great way. I don't know about you, Jayvon, too. Segway this thing out. Number two, it's going great.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

It's gonna be the one. So, guys, listen, episode two is wrapped up. I'm excited because this is this is the type of information that I believe is gonna bless so many environments, cultures, organization, um, team plants, all of it. Um, and if you haven't watched our first episode, please go back and take a look at the heart of leadership because all of this is going to tie in together as we build on the foundation of wave maker leadership. So I'm excited, man.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Yeah, thank you so much, Devon. Really appreciate who you are, what you bring to the table. And guys, this is only the beginning. So sit tight, buckle up. The wave is coming. Leadership, you guys have a good one. Take care. We appreciate you. Peace.