Tricia Mogensen and Jenny Keck: Branding That Actually Scales

Insurance, mortgages, real estate, branding, and marketing all collide in one very real problem: the details you ignore are the ones that cost you the deal or stall your growth. We start with what’s happening on the ground right now, a flood of homeowners insurance quote requests and the growing chaos behind the scenes. When roof age, plumbing updates, and electrical details get entered wrong, buyers can lose the house they thought they had. Even flood insurance gets misunderstood fast, especially when someone shows up with a confident AI generated message that doesn’t match the property.

Then we bring on Tricia Mogensen and Jenny Keck, the Santa Cruz creative duo behind Opposite of East, to unpack how strong brands are actually built. They share how their studio uses brand strategy, consulting, design, photography, and website direction to create work that looks different for every client. Their “chameleon” approach is the opposite of cookie cutter marketing, and it’s rooted in one idea: humans connect with humans, so your business has to feel like a person with a point of view.

We also get honest about the hardest part for founders: scaling. Word of mouth can build a business, but it rarely builds systems. We talk marketing budgets (often 5% to 10% of gross revenue), why strategy keeps inspiration focused, and what to do when you’re too busy to market at all. Sometimes the right move is retention marketing and hiring marketing, not more leads. If you’re building a founder led business in Santa Cruz or anywhere else, this is a practical listen with real examples and plenty of hard earned clarity.

Subscribe for more conversations like this, share the episode with a business owner who needs structure, and leave a review if the ideas help you grow.

Transcript

Insurance Quotes Are Overwhelming

unknown 0:00

All right.

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome to the On the Coast. Welcome back to the OTC podcast. I'm Grandine Jones with KW Thrive, and to my right is Ryan Buffold with Cross Country Mortgage.

SPEAKER_05 0:12

Jerry Seagrids with Seagrids Insurance.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Oh my God. Tell us about insurance.

SPEAKER_05 0:16

Oh, you're right out there. It's crazy busy right now. I don't know if that has anything to do with the way you guys are doing, but we are like homeowners quotes, like 20 to 60 a day. And it's madness. So I don't know if it's the season or what, but we are very, very busy doing that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

So when you say homeowners quotes, so you're in insurance, Ryan's in mortgages. I'm in the real estate side of it, and we are definitely seeing things. So when you get a home insurance quote, is it somebody writing an offer? Is that what it means?

SPEAKER_05 0:49

Well, so we yeah, so we have a little confusion happening with that. Like a lot of so homeowners come in a couple different forms. People in escrow, Orion's office will email me, right? And then we have people who are looking and multiple lookings, and you're like trying to accommodate those people, like, oh yeah, here's this quote, here's this quote. The problem is on the back side, there's like an hour or two of work on each one of them. And so we just have like, you know, 200, 300 requests a day for quotes. And I think the problem is, like obviously, like we're managing that, and I think a lot of agencies aren't managing it well right now. And so they're just like trying to find information about okay, how much am I looking to spend on this new purchase I'm gonna go into or maybe an offer I'm gonna write.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Well, I want to put a pin in that because put a pin in it, Brandy. Because Brian likes to put a pin in it. Just to put that out to the listeners, I know insurance sounds really boring, but it's actually really important. And what a lot of realtors are doing is they're telling, they're calling, they're getting a listing, they're calling an insurance company, they're giving the insurance company the answers, but they're not giving the right answers. So here are this is what people are asking for. You if I call you, Jerry, I say I've got this new listing on 123Me, you're gonna ask me how old is the electrical, yeah, how old is the plumbing, and what is the roof. Just this week, two listing agents put in the wrong information where they may not have the buyer they thought they had because that property that wasn't correct. And so it's like as boring as we joke that insurance is it the make or break of like getting along.

SPEAKER_05 2:19

I think it's sexy. It's so sexy, Brian. It's very sexy. Oh, it's my man over here.

SPEAKER_06 2:32

I I do think though, all joking aside, it falls into category. Some things that have the biggest results and positive results are kind of boring. Smart investing, that one part of your portfolio that you set it, forget it. Even like healthy habits, dieting, theoretically, as opposed to eating everything you fucking want, all these different things, dieting can be boring, right? But it's the thing you do. And what I'm saying is cherry's in that category.

SPEAKER_05 2:54

Yeah, and boring, but it's the thing you do. I said sexy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

It does seem sexy, and I think structure is sexy and doing things correctly is sexy.

SPEAKER_05 3:02

Yeah, so there there has been a bit of a change in, I think, from a guy who's done this for 25 years. There's way more knowledge from my consumer base. Like they know a lot more about what to expect, they know a lot more about the system, they know a lot more about like how policies work and what they need to buy. And that's been actually relatively challenging because it used to be that I could just tell them, like, here's what you need. And now they're saying, well, what about this and what about that? And so I found that a lot of the quotes that we're doing are taking a lot longer, which is maybe better because they're they're confident about what they're buying because they kind of made that decision. Whereas before I would just tell them what they needed and they'd buy it, right? And maybe Chat GPT, I've actually seen a lot more responses that are obviously ChatGPT. It gets me into the weeds a lot more often than I'd like, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

So obviously, right now I just looked for that. It was the flood insurance that you were providing. There was the question literally from the listing agent, well, my seller didn't need flood insurance, you should really redo like rebuttal that. And I was like, Well, throw it into like chat GPT or whatever. Yeah. So those answers are like right now now we're talking on that specific property market. I'm like, it's outside the the food zone at the end of the day, right now, as boring as now I just made it. How are you dealing with clients and what are you seeing? Like, are they knowing more than you like 10 years ago? Telling you what they see? Can you tell they're blowing a?

SPEAKER_04 4:24

Yeah, because there's Chat GPT font that they just turn around, copy, and send back to me. So usually I'll pick up the phone and go through all the questions with them.

SPEAKER_05 4:32

Is it as irritating for you as it is for me? I'll be like, I have to like literally like detail so many things. And it's not like irritating. I think it's a consumer should know everything that's possible under the sun, right, before they buy something. And that's I I really am behind that. But it is like a lot more work.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

It is. And when you say everything under the sun, definitely everything under the sun. It is. Because chat's saying it somewhere. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:00

We don't want to hate on our clients right now.

SPEAKER_05 5:02

We love you guys all the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

No, no, we do love you, but I think anybody that's pulling chat, and this is why in my own experience, I'd have the same thing. I have to read all the documents they're sending because chat doesn't pull it exactly. So it sees what you've asked before. It's probably looked at whatever property you looked at before, and it confuses them. So it is a lot more time.

Meet Opposite Of East

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Because we have really sexy guests today, I want to start moving into these guys. I know your commute was really far coming near, and I know that you're exhausted. Yes, yes. I know your job is actually honestly making things look sexy sexy. So I want to welcome opposite of East. We've got Tracy Moganson and Jenny Keck. And so I don't want you to say it now. You guys are Santa Cruzians, and Jenny, at the very end, I don't need to tell everybody how many generations because I'm just blown away. Welcome.

SPEAKER_06 5:49

I'm excited. Nice to have you guys.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Thank you so much. So, you guys, give us a little history of you. Like you were raised in Santa Cruz. How did these two cosmic forces meet and make this beautiful company they've got?

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Well, I obviously born and raised in Santa Cruz. Ocean girl surf. I was because a swimmer, the junior guards every year. So very random in the community and activities. What was your stroke?

unknown 6:18

Back. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

And and I am, yeah. Oh, yeah, not me. I did diving too. And then one year water tools I needed it. That's horrible. But yeah, that's basically just rode my bike to and from each side of town. And did you know her as a kid? No, we met about nine years ago.

SPEAKER_03 6:39

I was gonna say the funny fact, but I hope her.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Well, you can finish what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 6:45

No, I'm done. Oh I uh uh grew up on 36 on the extension of it, so like on on the the other side of Portola in like a little street. So I grew up there and then lived there, moved out from but came back in my 20s, lived with my dad, and Jenny was my neighbor. We didn't even know each other. So like two houses down, we lived, we were neighbors. Oh funny. And I mean, I was yeah, I was in my 20s, and she was like married and doing the mom thing. And so yeah, you know, like different avenues, yeah, different avenues of life, but just funny to be so close, like, and then you know, our paths crossed like in my like nine years like yeah, I don't even know.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Like nine or ten.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

Yeah, it was like third, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

No, 2016. Yeah, but mutual friends, and then when I met her, she was she was something she had like this short like lavender bow. Like, I'm gonna be friends with this girl, she's so cool.

SPEAKER_05 7:46

That's how I feel about Brian.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

She's so cool, and then we instantly clicked. And after some stalking, you know, stalking her a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 7:57

Um, but she was doing social media management, and I was doing social media management, and instead of us being competitors, we would call each other and just bounce ideas off of each other. Yeah, and then she would have a job and she's like, Hey, because I'm a graphic designer, and she was she was doing photography, and so she was like, Hey, I need a new menu for this restaurant that she was working for, so I would design the menu for her client. And so we just worked really well together.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

That's how it kind of evolved into so those first of all, though both of those industries just in Santa Cruz, how difficult was it to be because if anybody doesn't know and hasn't looked at, and hope you do at the end of this check out Officer East, it's fucking phenomenal. You have a knack for bringing out somebody's soul that they don't even know how to describe, yeah, and it's in business. So it's like what about Santa Cruz? First of all, to be at the elite level that you guys were at before you came together. Was it hard? Was it did you just do you? I mean, and then how do you build a business around that and survive in Santa Cruz?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

You know my weaknesses are her strengths and vice versa. Yeah, we're very yin and yang. So when it comes to like real business, that's Trisha's like where she shines. And I want to and she's also very creative, but then I'm you know, I'm creating like future, like creative things for clients. Like I see them in a different place, in a different form where they don't see themselves, and then Trisha's one that's really kind of putting down the road work for that. Awesome.

SPEAKER_06 9:29

Yeah, I think you guys are fantastic. I think you know, I think I'm one of the biggest fans in town. I always tell Trisha that, and I think what you guys are skilled at is, you know, I really see it, and it's nice to hear your creative side of it because I think but you have Trisha's also very creative, as well.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

No, no, I know I clearly know. I don't want to take that away from her.

SPEAKER_06 9:49

But I think what you guys kind of do, and this is even talking with Chris and a bunch of your clients that you've had, because we we operate in the same circles, is a client, you know, you can serve two purposes. One of them, if they have a strong understanding of what their message is, what their business is. I think you guys present a blank canvas and then they kind of present the palette. Like, and then you sort of like as artists and sort of the business side of it, I think you can either reimagine their business, and if they a lot of owners are really good, almost like your conversation here. There might be an owner that has incredible strengths, but a huge gap in how do I get this amazing message out. But I think you guys do a good job of like kind of like clearing the deck. You don't kind of square peg round hole. You're that's what happens with some social media managers. You hire somebody and or even a marketing agency, and you kind of get what they're good at, right? And you know, I think I always think of the old school kind of marketing where they tear off that big sheet and they're kind of presenting to a client. I think you guys have modernized that.

SPEAKER_05 10:44

But I think or they just apply the same formula they've done on a hundred other clients. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_06 10:50

And so you're sort of getting, yes, it's a lot you, but it's really kind of just what they're good at. But if you go look at San Cruz Athletic Club and you look at a bunch of your different clients, each has its own sort of like fingerprint. And is that something? How does that process kind of work when you meet? I guess I don't want you to give away the keys to kingdom. I completely get I do think what you guys do is very unique, but you can't recreate the two of you. But how does that work?

SPEAKER_03 11:13

You meet a client, you both get together right after, and kind of I feel like we are really good at being chameleons, and that's what you get when you work with us, and why all of our clients look so different. Like it's it's not like we're like our signature sauce is being able to imagine the best possibility for them. So that like, right? And that just looks like a good strength of ours, but it's like that is the that is our methodology. It's being a chameleon and being able to have open-mindedness and see the possibilities in all different industries, and and that's brand, right? Like we care about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

So yeah, that kind of goes back to the question before. How

Branding Without Cookie Cutter Templates

SPEAKER_00 11:55

do you be how are you so good in an air in an industry that wants you to be so square hole, square pet? I've never operated like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

Yeah, I've never felt that way. Yeah. And then people come to us to help them see themselves in a different way.

SPEAKER_03 12:11

I feel like I'm really good at convincing people to change their minds. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right? Like, like even if somebody comes to me with an idea, right, in a consulting session, like I feel like my skill set is like allowing them to see a possibility, and then Jenny paints the picture of it visibly.

SPEAKER_05 12:30

So are you approaching it like as a consumer would want to see this business or more as like the business wants to be presented?

SPEAKER_03 12:39

The cool thing about I feel like where me and Jenny have been able to work is that we are the ideal clients of the businesses that hire us.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 12:49

And we naturally attract businesses where we want to be a part of because we're creating experiences that meet the standards that we want to be a part of.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Well, you've done hundreds of businesses. Yeah. So that's a lot of businesses. And they all so name your the top five right now because I love Santa Cruz Athletic Club. Like that video and how that website is designed is out of this world for an athletic club. And then I obviously I'm a real estate agent. I love what you've done with the realtors that you've touched, and how they don't come across as realtors, and they don't come across looking like supermodels. You know, that there's a soul, like I say, I keep using the soul, there's a warmth in a soul that it's like their own personal song is sung through the photos and the context that you're capturing them. It's like you're capturing them at the very precise moment they they're shining, but it doesn't look overprocessed. Thanks. That's a great view.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

But what was the fucking saying?

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Okay, tell me more about me.

SPEAKER_06 13:44

I think she was getting at like just maybe some client references and like some maybe, maybe again, I I'm so sensitive to you guys as far as like the process, but I think what she was getting is just like a few clients and that they can go as they're listening to this podcast, pull up that Instagram and kind of go, I get it. I get what these guys are talking about.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Yeah, I think the talk, I mean, clients as far as like what it looks like, because we have clients that don't do marketing. Of course. Like we'll be because marketing's such one, it's one department of our business. But I feel like from and I'll let Jenny answer the question of like branding that she maybe is inspired by. But come what comes to mind is come tool village.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yes, that is hands down, noticeable and stunning. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Thank you. Yeah. I mean, Jenny just finished gonna be coming out soon. Yeah, Jenny just finished doing the branding, like our marketing team crushes it there. Like, we have such a good you know, content team, and then kept San Francisco Athletic Club, which Santa Claus Athletic Club was a cool project for me personally because my background is in like athletic training, and so there's a part of me that like really loves that. Like, and I've been I worked on that project a year before they opened, like with just doing strategy, yeah, and so it I love like hands down, I like cried when they opened, like love that project, and then Yoso Wellness, the spot out of town. Yes, yeah, and then all of them have been on this far. And then a long-term client that I had before Opus City Beast is Bearsweet Beast Jero. And we do like I mean, they're they're mom and pop, it's not like we're like, you know, trying to dominate Aptos, but like I feel like for what they are and what they allow us to be is such a cool gift because the owners totally trust us, and it's just they're just really good people.

SPEAKER_05 15:34

So when you guys all clients are good people, but when you guys are working with clients like this, how often is it like a full brand redo? Like in other words, like logos, like marketing, all that stuff. Is it most of the time that? Like it's like a full rehab?

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Starts with strategy first, and cool consulting, then strategy, and then based on that. It's either a re it's a rebrand or it's just start from scratch.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Yeah, yeah. And that's kind of the our kind of ecosystem is everybody that works with us starts with consulting or strategy containers.

SPEAKER_05 16:07

Do you find a lot of resistance with uh owners sometimes when you talk about that, or is it most of the time they're like symbiotic with you?

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I but again, right, like that's where I That's why they hire you, right? Yeah, that's where my strength is is like great, like even somebody that's super stubborn and like is set in their idea, like, okay, I'm gonna gauge that and like find my angle to like let them open their minds to a different possibility, meet in the middle, you know, re you know, we have a client recently where he came to us and like had a name, had a logo, and I was like, okay, like day one, don't drop that bomb, but like let's create something that is gonna be the best because you're coming to us to improve what you have or to build something that is of excellence, and so it would be a disservice if I didn't at least strategically advise of why my opinion or viewpoint is you know recommending a change.

What Scaling Really Demands

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Doesn't mean that it has to always happen, but typically people are they get fired up because of the strategy that we're writing, right? And then they they do see a reason why it makes sense to rebrand visually so that the things match.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

Yeah. I I think it's a good question though, because it makes me think, and I'll throw it over to you guys, is even on we've kind of stayed away from it. We were I told Trish the other day, you know, we went a million different ways when bikes first started. We didn't know what we we knew we wanted to be a media company, do these three things, but you do end up doing more consulting than you would think, right? And I think the biggest going to your thing, resistance. The fine I find the most resistance isn't this the amazing things you would end up offering a TV, a podcast, the magazine, it all has that's tangible. The resistance sometimes when you finally ask them, like, what are you currently doing for your marketing? How much are you spending on marketing? And they say, let's say an arbitrary number, let's say six thousand dollars a year. And then you say, Well, what's your gross revenue-ish? And they're like, All right, so you're spending 0.05% of your marketing budget, and just chat that shit. Anywhere you go, it's gonna be five to twelve percent of your gross marketing. So I found the resistance in this world on the outskirts of it, not even going as deep as you guys is the first thing is consulting them on your frustrated supply chain, COVID, all of these different things, the the world's kind of changing in a different way. The first one is resetting people's entire business model so they have room for a marketing budget that they just don't have, or they had a significant marketing budget, and then they sort of went on the trackpike of social media, which is beautiful and fine, but it's part of an ecosystem, it's part of a you know, uh a connected website, it's part of an overall branding. Gets down to I'm sure you consult even like, are your employees marketing the business while they're working? All those little nuances, but do you find that resistance that do you find the same way I do sometimes a shocking imbalance between maybe what they have been spending on their marketing, and then the the shocking thing is like here's what the number would be, and it's a an appropriate number, but they don't have it budgeted. Do you do you find that a little bit okay all the time?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Yeah, I think it's very common to especially in this town, like right, like keeping it local when you do have a when you build a business that has a great referral system, which is really how we build opposite of East. Yeah, if you look at our marketing, we personally don't have a ton of our own marketing. Yeah, my dad's work. But when you when you have built a brand and you have relied on growth through word of mouth, right? Like that's such a solid way to build a business. And I think that that's definitely part of what should be thought about. It's hard to then invest in the scale of that, with social, with ads, with influencers, with an in an employee ambassador program. That's hard to invest in that. And then it becomes one of those things where it's like, great, you have a founder who does not like they can pull it off and execute themselves. Great. You still need to invest in the structure of building those systems through either a consultant or doing it yourself, time or time or money, or both, or you have to hire it out. And so it's a it's a tricky, a tricky situation for founders to be in who never had to invest and then now need to, because they have to keep up with the scale of what the community and how dynamic of a change the outside community is going to be.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

I think you nailed it. Like I feel like that's the level of scaling. Like you could be like me, like a mom and pop for however long you want, like in word of mouth and referral-based. But to get to that next level, you really need to invest in the the image of the business, which is all-encompassing for what you guys do.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Well, and they're also navigating from what they how they see it, but not what the customers actually how they're experiencing it. And so that's where the that's where the disconnect you can do.

SPEAKER_05 21:06

Well, and I can say from a person in those shoes right now, it's the the industry has changed so much. Like when I started, social media wasn't a thing, right? And I'm very I'm a dinosaur now, and I don't know how that happened. I felt like I was a young guy, but I'm not, right? And it's changed so much, and I feel like sometimes, you know, it's your brand is a very personal thing, too. Like I that's why I was asking. Yeah, like a logo that's super outdated, right? I've seen that a lot. Like you're like, oh my goodness, like that could be.

SPEAKER_06 21:37

Quit pointing at me with all those bad examples.

SPEAKER_03 21:40

He pointed me a dinosaur logo, logo something that is a very interesting scaling point for businesses, right? Because you're going from a very small mom and pop operation where your logo is personal, your logo is a part of your art, it's an extension of you, and to scale. You have to take the founder out of the equation. The business has to scale to the point to give the founder a vacation or time off.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Right. Or to hit a revenue. Right. Like at some point, a personal brand or a brand that feels personable in order to scale it, does need to go through a growth period. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

Well, there's a lot of other changes that have to happen too. I mean, there's incorporating, there's profit sharing, there's a lot of other stuff that goes with that that I think is hard for a lot of owners to wrap their brains around.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

I think what we're addressing, and just because I have had to relearn this in my own business, and they it is a business plan written by Gary Keller, but he says it's inspirational to purposeful.

Founder Identity Versus Growth

SPEAKER_00 22:44

And I think when you are referral-based, you are inspired to help these people, then all of a sudden when you try to scale, you run out of inspiration or energy. Yeah. And Ryan, you're excellent at purpose. Like when it makes sense. Like, first of all, everyone prefers you, but now you're massive. You're one of the top vendors in the United States. How does how do you stay motivated, fun, exciting, and then stay purposeful?

SPEAKER_04 23:08

So I felt like they weren't exactly talking to me. You better get the lingom. Because my business is total reform-based, and that's why I've built it mom like just one of mouth through senators, but now I'm listening. I'm like, okay, okay. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 23:42

You kind of nailed something that like is bothering me. Like there's only one of me. Right. So this is the thing I think that you guys are touching in on is like to go to that scalable model, you have to learn how to let go enough to not be like, I'm the guy. Yeah. Right. Like that's my problem right now, is I'm the guy, and I'm there's only one of me, and there's 250 emails a day that I gotta manage, right? So that's I think you can probably resonate a lot of that. Like you've done a really good job about like offloading some of that. Like you're not always the guy, you might be the guy sometimes. But I think that's the thing I'm learning right now is to in in order to get to the next phase of my career, I have to learn how to make 20 of me. Yeah. And then also is that true though?

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Do you believe that statement is true? I don't think that anyone can ever replace a founder.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

I think that you could find five people to replace aspects of you, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

I agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Nobody is ever gonna be able to like remove you and it be exactly you, but that's also okay.

SPEAKER_06 24:47

Yeah, I mean, no matter if you want to rip Jerry really.

SPEAKER_05 24:50

No, the proof is in the pudding with that though, because no matter what happens, no matter who I hire, I mean, I have like five sales guys, there's always the I need to talk to Jerry.

SPEAKER_06 24:58

Totally.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Right? And that's always gonna happen.

SPEAKER_06 25:00

I'm actually I'm obsessed with this because I think my vision of Vibes is that at one point, somebody in this town's gonna say Sam Choose Vibes, and they'll say Brian, right? And they'll like, no, Brian left like seven years ago on the coast of Portugal. Yes. And that's I think that's the way I'm over and over. I'm trying to we're trying to scale and we're trying to expand, and I'm trying to diminish, you know, because you can't when you first start a business, you have to go shake the hands, you have to meet everybody, and clearly they don't know who the fuck Vibes is. And so you have to kind of have that one. But over three years now, you start, you know, I call abdicating, you know, my role in Vibes, partnering with the TV network, partnering and spreading out, opening up community broadcasts and stretch, you know, stretching the magazine distribution so that I just become smaller and smaller as we scale and grow bigger and bigger. So that I still have creative control, I can write an editorial, I can get on here, but I think overall the dream is that I just sort of simply disappear from it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 25:57

But that is the dream, dude. Like to have vibes stand on its own legs without you. I mean, for me, like if somebody was like Seagraves Insurance, like who's cherry? That that would be like the dream. Like, I don't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

But that's two different things. You have to to to change and transform about the business. You have to change the owner and the founder's operating system of their emotional connectivity in the business, their identity in the business, and you have to create operating systems for your business to run without you. So that's a very dynamic thing that you're and that's I mean And how deep do you guys go with that?

SPEAKER_05 26:32

Like you help them get the operating systems going?

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Yeah, so you're handing something off to the employees and they they know it'll work.

SPEAKER_06 26:39

I think this is the part, and I just knowing you guys a little bit, I think this is the part, it's a little bit of a catch 22 with you. I think you have such a great reputation for marketing, for branding, but it is a equal pie of what you do. And I do between website design, between exactly what we're talking about, is sort of the meat of it. I think the right now, let's say you're carrying an active client base month to month of blank, but you've helped launch a hundred businesses. That means that, you know, I always forget to I say it so much, but it's in that thing of like give a man a fish or a woman fish, they you know, eat for a day, teach a man or woman a fish, they eat for a lifetime. I do think that's the opposite model in a lot of ways, where it's not basically a munchhausen by proxy where you want to suffocate them and they have to survive with you. You know, you don't want to keep saving businesses. I think what you guys do very well, and I think the compliment is starting hundreds of businesses.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Well, and to get re reinspired, to be enthusiastic about their knowing. That's it. Because it gets stuck, and then they're like, I don't know what I'm doing, they feel like they're drowning, and then that's when they come to us and like help, like I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_06 27:43

No, I think I think and that's a it's a it's a compliment. And in there's probably a question as far as like I think the question would be, you know, as you guys go forward, and it's actually, you know, it's kind of like Karina, our amazing what is your title?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Producer. What am I?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

I'm taking it producer. I'm like you're talking.

SPEAKER_06 28:01

I'm less than her.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

You're the tall guy.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

No, but I think that the question in here is uh woman microphone.

SPEAKER_06 28:15

Queena had a question here loosely. Correct me if you can find it about like when you started it, when you guys finally said, you know what, we're bouncing off, let's do something real together. And

Pandemic Pivot And The Name

SPEAKER_06 28:23

in the first say, six months to a year, as far as you have a question I'm talking about, like what is it now? Like, like, so you start this thing off, you have a vision of opposite. If you were to go back and sit down with Trisha and Jenny and say, hi guys, and they're like, How did it go? You know, what like that kind of a question? Like, what would you tell them and what did you how did it progress over those, I guess, six years now?

SPEAKER_02 28:43

When we started working together at social media managers, I told her, I'm like, one day we're gonna work together, and she goes, I work alone.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

She loves telling this.

SPEAKER_06 28:57

I'm in the same story, I'm being serious.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

And then the pandemic hit, and and I was crying to her because I was hidden where I was working, and I was really upset that I just couldn't do it anymore. And she just said, Let's quit your job. Like, quit it right now, let's start a business.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

I literally just got off the phone, quit my job like within five minutes. And we were on a trip, like, let's go on a trip, let's figure we were we didn't have a name yet, we couldn't figure out what's name, and we kept thinking bouncing out these like dumb names like West Coast branding and all these like the other names, and we couldn't come up with something. So we went on and we went on Savista for a trip, and we're just walking on the beach and we're rattling off all these names, and I kept saying West Coast, West Coast, and she goes, opposite of East. And I'm like, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 29:45

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

That just gave me chills. That is so it's such a great story. It is opposite of East. That's how your brain works. That's been true.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

I always like to do something different. Yeah, no, and I I just instantly like, that's it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:57

But then your subsidiary uh DBA is you got West into a new business, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:02

The name West or Oh, we have we have a sister brand that's Rome Blaz. Rome.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah, no, it's okay. It's okay. Rome West, yeah. Rome West, yeah. Yeah. Well, you did bring up acts and chaps this time, so we're good.

SPEAKER_06 30:17

It's hard to say that, isn't it? I realize when I heard that back, I really have time to think, it's have to slow down. Aps and chaps.

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Listen to that podcast.

SPEAKER_03 30:31

But I think COVID was, I know it was such a tough time for so many people, but I really was drowning in my marketing agency. Like from I had a restaurant marketing agency before COVID, so all I did was restaurants, restaurants, restaurants. And and it was where I like, you know, like learned how to have an agency. But by the time COVID hit, I was like, cancel everybody, I'm exhausted.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

Well, I knew it was closing too. Yeah. You know, take it.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

So yeah, I just so the my point is that I think, yes, I am very I do work, you know, at the time I was working alone, and like very much like, you know, kind of didn't know how to collaborate. I think that was the whole thing about like where we are now versus when we started. It was like I said yes to collaborating and like quit the job like impulsively, which is how I am. We started the business and just like ran with it. And then, like, to answer your question though, like I was talking to her on the phone because me and her are rewriting our strategy right now. And I was like, We fucking did it. Like, we pulled it off. Like, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 31:41

Like, I just can't believe it sometimes where I'm like, oh whoa, like whoa, like yeah, you also came from the same advice you gave these two guys, the founder piece. You were your own founder, you were on the founder. And you guys came together being like, you cannot like this individuality, it's only you, solo me, can't this you're I'm crushed with whatever's going on with COVID, was it? And together, like you've embodied what you're telling me.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

And it's kind of rad because I think you know, the beauty of where you're at right now is I think it's probably on the edge of it, but I think what you want your business on some level to be is like sort of an inevitable part of a decision-making process in that category. And I think you might be a little high, let's say, but I think you have to at least call off cities. Like, I think if you're in this town and you're talking to other people in businesses, you're reading some, you know, different print articles, listening to things. I think on some level, you've done a good job forward-facing. Some of your clients have elevated your sort of standing in the community. But I think if you're thinking about shit, we got to do that. Again, you at least make that call. That's the position you want to be in. It's not gonna, you're not gonna close every single client that walks in, but you want to be in that conversation.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

Yeah, well, we're we're kind of restructuring our own internal strategy and our own operating system, like literally I was doing it this morning. And I think like the main takeaway from if somebody has a conversation with us, if somebody doesn't work with us, but like right, I want them to feel like those girls have good ideas. Like that's it. Yeah, like right, even if I'm giving you an idea for free and you excave yourself, like that's the that is the juice.

SPEAKER_06 33:16

No, that's exactly you want to. I think what you want is like, I think, well, it gives one, if that's your intentionality, it's like it's like a date, it's like being transparent. If that's your intentionality when you take a meeting with a client, it's like almost an audition for a Broadway play. You're gonna give them your interpretation of this market, you can give an interpretation of this role in this song or this rad insurance policy. You know, I'm gonna be the I'm gonna be you're gonna walk away from here when you meet with Jerry Seagraves. I'm Jerry right now. I can't believe I'm gonna pay for it right now.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

I know this can look a bit.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

We've really grown. Let's get a place.

SPEAKER_06 33:54

Let's go to place that's really I think there's a tiny TED talk in there where it's like, I think that from a business standpoint, from a car salesman to a marketing agency, I think if that's your sort of intentionality, knowing your shit, knowing how you're gonna present it, being confident, is like you may or may not get it, but you're gonna set it, walk away from it, and know that you did that. And at the very least, no, they might not sign that contract. We're like, man, that was that was I learned something from that.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

I'll start. No, and also too, like having them walk away walk away or or sit with you and just think, you know, oh, I never thought of it that way. Oh, I never saw it that way. So that's I never envisioned it that way. I was gonna say, and so that's what really inspires us.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

You're you're giving so it's a catch point too, right? You want to give your heart and soul into this, and then you see things that other people cannot see. That's what makes you special, is these founders. And then they don't hire you. And then they go off on do you feel satisfied that like at least they got to see too my ass?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I feel mixed about it. Sometimes I'm like I don't know, like, because a big part of our our business model is this is doing strategy first. It it's a non-negotiable, like we always create a strategy first, and not everybody hires us to execute the strategy. And so there's a little bit of like bummer, like that didn't quite go the way that I would have done it, but it's also like that's okay too.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Yeah, we're okay, it's okay for them not to choose us. Right. We want them to find what works for them.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

When

What A Real Brand Strategy Includes

SPEAKER_00 35:35

you say strategy, what is that? I'm coming into your office for Ryan because he totally needs this.

SPEAKER_04 35:54

I will challenge you.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Are there chaps involved? Pretty cool business.

SPEAKER_05 36:07

You guys are doing a pretty good job. I mean, I think your Instagram is amazing. You're like, I don't even have an Instagram because it's so boring, but it's ass and traps, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

But like what I think you guys do is you what I see that you do, and then I want to go back to what your strategy is, is that you say, okay, everyone's we'll just use Ryan as an example. Everyone sees lending as this, but nobody sees Ryan as this. And then you say, but the human is the human aspect of lending looks like this. I feel like that's what you guys do. You're like, here's the restaurant, here's their menu. Yes, everybody can like say this is our best burger or whatever, but the human aspect of these pieces, just by smelling them or seeing them, somehow you pull that out. And then you're like, then there's the founder for us, some sort of he likes this or he likes that. And those are those invisible pieces that I keep trying to look at how well you find these things. And it's like we said, both of you, it's really magical because in real estate you bake cookies because it smells like grandma, right? Right. You bypass the free prefrontal cortex and you get into the senses because we mostly use our eyes as our sensory point of view, and you bypass all that and you start having familiarity. You find that, and I don't know how through people, and so you your marketing is not only spending architecturally and things like that, but you're bypassing that prefrontal cortex and you're making something familiar, and I don't know how you find it. I don't know if it's a magic sauce, but anyways, that's why I think it's so magical what you do. But back to like the the structure, you keep saying we have this, you know, what does that look like? So for one year we'd have a plan for you, or when you're you're saying we we need systems and structures, and yeah, this might be a nice idea. Like all the everything Brandy said about our magic, that's neat. But if you don't implement it like this, like a diet, if you don't stop drinking, you're not gonna lose weight, or whatever, you know, we're eating.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

But everyone has different personalities and and being able to put that into the strategy, like our our structure and within the business, like that's what makes them more attract, like people attract attracted to them. Yeah, which I think is what she's saying.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

It's like, how do we do that?

SPEAKER_02 38:12

Right. Oh my yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:16

But it is a it, I think that the strategy portion of our business is something that I've always fought for. And I mean, it's my department, and so it's like I because I see things in a completely different way than Jenny does, which is why we work so well together, right? And I think that when things don't have meaning, when things don't have purpose, there's not a written instruction manual, quote unquote, like instruction manual, like it's easy to drift away from your where you're actually going. So that's purpose keeps inspiration focused. That structure keeps so the way that I write strategies, and and that's kind of what we're changing at the moment, but I write them in multi-different ways, like a a classic brand strategy, which is gonna be, I mean, as uh sometimes boring as like what is the mission? Like, what's the personality of the brand? Like if it was a celebrity, who would it be? What what music are they listening to? Like, right, like you have to write at the end of the day, whether it's a personal brand or or an actual business, there you have to extrapolate some sort of human element because humans connect with humans. So finding what that is, which is usually a version of the founder from five years ago, right? Like they're speaking to that idea, their ideal client is five years behind them, and then that ideal client is wanting to be five years ahead to meet that, right? The aspirational part of it. If it's a if it's an aspirational business, like right, like so it's finding what that is, like somebody that is lending, right? I mean, there's that one point in time you didn't know how to do lending or what it all is, right? Like you're speaking to a version of yourself to your clients. Like it is a version of you, or it's your son, or it's or it's somebody else that you actually know who like needs that information, or at least it should be, right? Like that's how to create the humanness of it. And so that's a very glossed-over version of strategy.

SPEAKER_06 40:26

But you're also getting to this, I think this is a perfect sort of tease for it's descriptive, but you're also getting close to the secret sauce now. Now you're getting close to the because you said there's there's these boilerplate things you do in this agency, but then only you guys can do what you do when you finally present it. Like the bullet points within each of these categories. I think that's the the over macro view of that is is you know not standard so much, but then you started to touch on what's in the heart of your bullet points that might be different from agency D. You know, that kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

It's it's it also gives them clarity too, because they don't know sometimes, like, I don't know, William, or what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

I'm shocked.

SPEAKER_02 41:05

But I want this. Yeah, I want to do this. And you're like, what do you want? Like, what? And so that's strategy is the foundation to like really hone in on the track and measure their profits after they hire you.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Some people don't share it. Will you be surprised? Like sometimes I just had a client that was like she was like, that's confidential, which is fine, right? Like you know, we're not we're not operational consultants at the end of the day, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Like we can look at numbers, we can look at membership sales or or what or tourism stats, but not every not every client is gonna because I feel like you can grow when you track and measure your articulating activating system in your brain is like once you're I have to do it for my work. And I didn't do it for 20 years. I live only on inspiration. And so it it was like that that tracking and measuring, tracking and measuring, it gets bigger and it grows and it grows and grows. And if you like, I was just thinking that they can recognize that you did that, that in five years you're still a part of their business because you didn't fade away. You know what I mean? Because how what is the circulation time of somebody making it to where they want to and staying there? Eventually it does businesses do this, right?

SPEAKER_05 42:16

Well, I think it's scalable too, right? Like at a certain point, like you grow to the vision of that strategy and it continues, right?

SPEAKER_06 42:23

I uh yeah, and it's it is the stickiest point of all the things, and I do dip into that conversation here. It's like the best way is like transparency, honesty, partnership right from the very beginning. What you hope for is sort of an honest relationship. And when you come in, you say essentially you're like, you know, in this category, I always tell people, even like on our lowest, you know, our lowest package monthly, and let's say it's 25 grand a year, you know, I say, I'm gonna be the best $25,000 employee you've ever had, and I need to be seen as that. You know, I need to be seen in the ecosystem. Let's say you hired a GM, you know, which you pay a lot more for that in Santa Cruz, and when it's all said and done, I just want to be part of your ecosystem. I want to be part of it. I understand I'm not gonna be in on your financials, meetings, things like that, but um, I'm not a separate part of it. Whatever you are today, whatever your numbers are, kind of do your sort of proration for supply chain, COVID, all the things we do. I just want to be part of the team. And maybe it's $7,000 a year, maybe it's $25,000, maybe it's a quarterly kind of buy with the TVs with the Ad Messenger. But I think I really try to lay it on the table again, let's just be fucking honest with each other. And I just want to come in here and and you know, and be eventually a cost of living increase on that salary yearly without pulling the rug or doing anything crazy. Just want to partner up for like 15 years. If you think you're gonna be here for 15 years, I'll be there for 15 years. We'll keep we'll keep elevating the distribution, the quality, we'll make sure people keep the magazine, we'll go to 300 TVs, we'll do all of our shit. I just want to be a small part of the city.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

You're invested in the growth of them too.

SPEAKER_06 43:51

That's it. That's it. Yep. And so the other one I wanted to get to before we go, we've been having a lot of luck with this one, and it's could it be for both of you. And I it

Hard Years And Restructuring Workloads

SPEAKER_06 43:59

can be A singular moment, but over six years, I always like little points. I like hard points. I like things like that. Like, you know, we're when the two of you in Oxide East, what was the most challenging moment if you can agree on one or have individuals? And I think from a business standpoint, as we work it outwards, how did you fight your way through it?

SPEAKER_02 44:21

Well, one year I had we I we had a lot of the like when one department is overfilled, and so it's like one it's more on one person's responsibility, and so they carry the weight of that one department, and the other person can't really like they can help, but not really, because it's not like they're not because we're we do our own departments, and so one year it was more in my in my year, and then the following year was all in hers for the most part. And so the way that we felt, and so that was really like okay, this is this isn't functional, we can't do it this way anymore. And so then that's when we restructured and we're like, okay, we can't just have it be one department each, it needs to be where we can help each other out. That's the same thing. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_06 45:06

Do you agree, Trisha? Is that about where you kind of saw the same thing as far as an apex kind of or a low moment, like where you kind of had to restructure the balance out either your relationship with the business or no?

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Yeah, there was also a year where we were really slow. Yeah. And we were like, you know, like I'm somebody that's motivated by paying my car insurance. Buying food, right? And so when that feels you know, thin or like, right? I'm like, what am I doing wrong? Like, what right? And so for me, the lowest point was like, oh my gosh, we like built this business, we quit your job, I don't have a job. You know, like I think that's when I was like, oh my gosh, like, and I think that was the year where me and her wrote were like, what do we do? Like, you know, what did you guys do?

SPEAKER_02 45:54

We just kept we wrote it out. We wrote it out, right? Like, and then if it also too with Trisha and I, when we talk about our business and what we want, who we want to work with, I swear to you about the next, the next day or two days later, they're walking in the door.

SPEAKER_06 46:08

It's kind of funny. Manifest together.

SPEAKER_02 46:09

Yeah, we we are powerful manifestors together, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 46:12

And I do think the point you made was really salient. I think the the one thing you said there, and it makes me is you were talking about that lifting up in you know that kind of it reminded me obviously of interpersonal relationships. It sounds like the part of business sometimes is that sort of ecosystem of even like a marriage or a long-term relationship where I'm having a down moment or a down gear or whatever it is, I lost my job and somebody's carrying the other one. I think my friends break up, they can't get through long-term relationships because I think they have a really hard time navigating low moments and and and associating a sense of permanence to a low moment. You know, it's it's like that's not normal, nor is your honeymoon in parents. Those are two things that are unachievable on a daily basis, and but they somehow, on the low moments, they create a sense of permanence and reconciliation. The high moments, I think it should always be like that. And I think that's what kind of screws people up. But I really kind of saw a human relationship in that comment that lift each other up and what communicate. Communicate.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Yeah, communication is key.

SPEAKER_06 47:13

Do you have any what that we're pressing?

SPEAKER_05 47:15

I have a question for five minutes ago. So so when you're building a strategy, how much research do you do into the industry that you're because I kind of feel like maybe what's great about you guys is you're just like, let's reinvent this from nothing. But uh, how much do you put into like that industry that they're in? How much research do you do into other businesses that are successful in that space? A ton.

SPEAKER_03 47:40

A lot.

SPEAKER_05 47:40

A ton. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:41

Yeah. And there's software that helps you all, right? It's not like I'm just you're pulling it out of the unit.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

You know.

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

And then also too, like for branding, like I'll look at other industries and you don't want to look the same. So you want to look at that.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

Right. Okay. For the most part, most of your clients, Santa Cruz? Or outside of that bigger.

SPEAKER_02 47:59

Well, we have some outside of Santa Cruz too.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

Got it. Yeah. Which Santa Cruz is fun. Just because we're so mon off, we're so localism, we're so not chained. Like, yeah. I bet I feel I I bet you guys feel like you have a bunch of little children everywhere. You know, like building businesses is like that. And you're proud of them, and you can brag about it.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

I love that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

Yeah. That's it.

SPEAKER_06 48:21

Karina. Karina's gonna come in with a hammer.

Marketing Budgets And Retention Plays

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Ballpark about how many hours should companies be spending on marketing per week or a month?

SPEAKER_05 48:28

Oh, that's a good one. Good one.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

That is such a broad question. What do you like? What's the size of the company? How many team members do they have? Like, give me the details. Jerry, what do we do? What's the size of your company?

SPEAKER_05 48:43

Nine employees.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

What else did you ask?

SPEAKER_03 48:47

How many agents do you guys have?

SPEAKER_05 48:49

We have four four salespeople, and we have five admin staff. We probably need more.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

And do you have a marketing department?

SPEAKER_05 48:57

No.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:58

That's me. I'm just hopeful marketing, but I don't know anything.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:02

So Brian kind of said it earlier though. Like whatever your revenue is, your yearly gross revenue, it look conservatively 5% and ideally 10%.

SPEAKER_05 49:13

Let me ask you this. So this is a pertinent to my own situation. I am so busy I do zero marketing. Like I'm literally like losing my mind every day. Would you still push me to do marketing and scale from there?

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Do you have a retention-based business? Yeah, then that then you ri you market to retain your client.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:33

Instead of to grow.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

That's a gem right there. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 49:41

Now you're taking care of the people that have been giving you business.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Or you're marketing to gain more employees, agents.

SPEAKER_05 49:47

So this is this is the piece that I'm trying to work on right now. So I need to get good quality candidates and so where can he call you? That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Yeah, well, everybody was laughing. So I was asking them, so where can they like now that everybody's heard this, and now we're excited for you, Jerry and Ryan. Who do they call? Where do they go? Where's the Ghostbusters? Yeah, don't call them. Where do they find you? Yeah, our website oppositebeast.com. Opposite of East.com and the people can check you out on what social media sites. Instagram primarily.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

We're just funding that we're in marketing because we named the business before we were like really SEO extra.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Speaking of number one, you're authentically number one and you don't buy your votes. So I like that.

SPEAKER_06 50:44

That's for the next time you're in a good time. Because we're not gonna shit on somebody on the room.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

I mean it's great marketing to say you're number one, but a lot of people, and I know a lot of people in this room have been number one before, but uh you know, it is a marketing ploy, and you guys are like you built this from the ground up for the sand up. And it is on such sturdy foundation that it's just stunning. It's just it's a training and it's not solid. So congratulations on that. So now, how many generations? Seven, six.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Whoa, my things are seven. Whoa!

SPEAKER_06 51:20

That's like the Loney Indians.

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Yeah, I have trained my uh the pottery from the loany.

SPEAKER_06 51:25

I'm real.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

Um so Brian, you're a third generation?

SPEAKER_06 51:28

Third generation. Strawberry farmers, third.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Brian, second?

SPEAKER_06 51:33

Second.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

Karinas, third. You're zero. Neither one. You're one. Yeah, I'm the first one. Yeah, I'm just here to interview you.

Where To Find Everyone

unknown 51:44

All right.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Thank you, thank you, and we thank you for listening. Thank you so much. We had so much fun. Yay! I'm Brandy Jones at KW's Drive. I'm at 831 588 5145.

SPEAKER_04 51:54

Ryan Buckfold, Cross Country Mortgage, 831 818 2339.

SPEAKER_05 51:59

Jerry Seagrid's with Seagrids Insurance, 831-239945.

SPEAKER_06 52:04

I was never here.