Ethan Estess: What We Build. What We Protect.

ADUs, insurance, and mortgages sound like separate topics until a deal falls apart and you realize they are chained together. We start with what we’re seeing right now in Santa Cruz County: attached ADUs that insurers do not want, roof age and replacement cost rules that keep tightening, and the brutal reality that if you cannot secure homeowners insurance, you often cannot secure the loan. Housing policy may encourage added units, but underwriting, affordability, and timelines decide what actually gets built and bought. 

From there, we sit down with Santa Cruz native Ethan Estess, a Stanford-trained marine scientist who turned toward art to tell bigger ocean stories. Ethan shares how surf culture shaped his life, how great white shark research and Monterey Bay Aquarium work gave him a front-row seat to ocean change, and why a scientific paper can feel small compared to art that reaches people emotionally. His work uses retired fishing rope and marine debris, including material collected from Hawaii, to create seascapes that are beautiful at first glance and unsettling once you realize what they are made of. 

We also dig into the local economy of the ocean: surf tourism, the “Blue Mind” effect of the horizon, and why protecting coastlines is both environmental and economic policy. Ethan breaks down what smart conservation looks like, why some marine protected area proposals backfire when they ignore local science and community input, and how groups like Save the Waves and All Waters push for credible, workable solutions. We wrap with practical hope: circular economy wins like recycled fishing nets, extended producer responsibility for plastics, and a sober take on climate change that focuses on the choices we are still making. 

If you got value from this, subscribe, share this with a Santa Cruz neighbor, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What local issue are you willing to show up for next?

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Introductions

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Only Coast Podcast. Hello, hello, and welcome back to the OTC Podcast. I'm Brandy Jones with KW Thrive.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

And to my right is Ryan Doc Cole, Cross Country Mortgage. Jerry Seagraves with Seagraves Insurance.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Woohoo! And our fearless leader, Brian Upton in the background. Hello. We have a very special guest today, but before we get started, Jerry, what are you seeing in insurance? And Ryan, what are you seeing in the lending world in two seconds?

SPEAKER_05 0:28

Yeah, I mean, uh this week in insurance news.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Because that is some riveting.

SPEAKER_05 0:33

Yeah, I mean, it's obviously very exciting. But the big thing is like we're seeing a lot of ADUs having problems. Like that's the new wave of all the issues we're having is we found a home market now, and now the ADUs that are attached to the homes that they're buying, the companies don't want. And so this is the new thing that I'm catching up with. And it's very challenging because you know, as a problem solver by by make and model, like I want to fix it, and there's sometimes no fix for this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I want to tie that in with you, Ryan. So I don't think the public understands when you're listening to this. There's this huge governmental push to add more housing. Yes. However, we're trying to add housing to people who own their property as fee simple. Fee simple means you own it, and now they say you can do an SB9, you can split your lot, or you can conduize your lot, or you can put an ADU and a junior ADU. But then somebody goes to buy it and Ryan says what? When you get some of these well, you can't get insurance, and if you can't get insurance, you can't have a loan if you can't get insurance.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Yeah. But we're actually recognizing ADUs now more so than ever. Like you can have three per property, so a house and three ADUs now. And we can fund that Fannie Mae.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

It's a it's a weird problem because like I feel like in some ways you want all this to connect it, but in so many other ways you need it disconnected because of the power, you know, monopoly that they would have. But this particular situation, it's just also like banks wanting replacement costs on the roof, but insurance companies going, hey, well, you have a roof that's 20 years old, right? And we can't give you that. So it's it's a really weird like shift in underwriting guidelines. It's it's like I'm the bad guy always when I'm like, Oh, what are you doing with that AEU? Oh, I'm renting it. And well, we we don't we have to write four policies now because that's the situation and it's maybe not affordable, it blows up your loan. Yeah, yeah, it's a really, really difficult situation right now.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

I know that everybody's like, oh, insurance guy. No, I don't think you realize in Santa Cruz County that if you don't have a good insurance guy, you don't have enough.

SPEAKER_06 2:39

Yeah, I'll stab someone for you. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

So

ADUs Collide With Insurance Rules

SPEAKER_01 2:44

our special guest today is very familiar with Santa Cruz County and what makes it special and the topography, everything about the humanity of it. And he's born and raised here. This is Ethan Estes. And did I say that right? Ethan Ethan Estes, who is a marine scientist and a very famous artist who is a graduate of Stanford and is here to share with us today. Like, what are you up to? Like, what are you seeing? You just heard us talk about the economy of Santa Cruz and housing.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah, no, thanks for having me on. I mean, I it's really interesting to learn uh from you guys. I I live this uh for sure because it makes me think about my experience. I am lucky to own a home in downtown Santa Cruz, and the reason that we sought out this property was that it had this really weird back building. So 1200 square foot storage business, permanent business in our backyard. And I think it was weird enough that other people didn't want to buy this property, and we were lucky to get it. This may be five or six years ago.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

You are very lucky to get it five or six years ago. I mean, you should like yes, yeah, well, seven five percent. Well, that's before insurance really blew up about insurance now, is another third party gatekeeper to your to your right to home. Well, I don't know, it's right, to your homeownership. Thanks, Jerry.

SPEAKER_05 4:04

It used to be an afterthought, right? Like on I mean, in many ways, even for me, like you go look at a house and you're like, yeah, I don't care what the insurance is, like that's $800 a year. Now it's like the first thing I probably for you, like, did you get you know, do you have a quote yet for this place, right?

SPEAKER_04 4:20

Like, no, they all complain about the interest rate. They're like, oh, insurance 800 bucks a week.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Like, after he talks them down off the it's only 6.1%. We're not at 8%. Then they say, Are you kidding me? It's $8,000 for insurance. You're like, call Jerry.

SPEAKER_05 4:36

Yeah, and I'm $7,260.

SPEAKER_06 4:40

It's kind of taken up a pull position in a lot of ways where it used to be one of the last things. It was an after, it was an afterthought. It was a given. We'll do that at the last minute, even pull up a sale. There's no doubt about it. Congratulations, Jerry.

SPEAKER_04 4:53

Yeah, you matter now. It's a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Ethan, I'm so sorry. No, back to you.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

I I want to nerd out with you guys on this because I can talk about my stuff, you know, fish and I'm learning here.

SPEAKER_05 5:07

Your bus, your, your building that you or the home you bought, is it a business that you run out of there or is it a business that you collect rent for?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

No, so yeah, we decided very we we from the start that we did not want to run a storage business out of our backyard with right ten people coming and going all hours worth of the day, right? I've at that time we didn't have kids, but now we have a a three and a half year old and a two-year-old, and you know it was not compatible with the family. So, but the reason we got this property, I've been renting a warehouse over on the west side for 10 years, started at 1200 bucks a month, it's a thousand square feet, and now it's 2300 a month. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

The warehouse is for art? Where is that your studio?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, yeah. I've been working working and making art out of that space, and it's you know, I renovated it, it's it's my happy place, but I'm basically slow been getting priced out of it. And we got this place because we're gonna move the studio there. So that that back building is gonna be hopefully my forever studio, which is you know, crazy lucky to have got the property to be able to pull it off and at a low interest rate. And so I'm super stoked on

A Backyard Building Becomes A Studio

SPEAKER_00 6:12

that. We're about to move in to that space, like it we remodeled and we're doing open studios in October.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

I saw that. Okay, I am so excited about that. And if you guys those of you that are new to the OTC podcast, Open Studios is in October where over a hundred eight a hundred artists literally have a studio in someone's house or someone's business, and you get to go all day Saturday and Sunday to t to either purchase, look at. It's it's beautiful, it's one of the most beautiful. What's your experience with it as the artist?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Yeah, Open Studios is one of the coolest things in Santa Cruz, in my opinion. There's no doubt about it. It's if you want if you like somebody's work and you want to learn from them and get their full story, I mean, you're literally just hanging out in their backyard, like, you know, and you get to really see their full experience of how they make work, what inspires them. And it's for me, yeah. If you want to like really experience some experience somebody's art, being in their studio is the best way to do it. So it's a lot of pressure. I mean, you have to get your studio cleaned up. Like I I did it the last time I did it was maybe six or seven years ago at my west side space, and it it's so much fun because you just get to meet a ton of people. Surprisingly, a lot of people come to buy art, you know. And that in a sand in Santa Cruz, that can be a bit of a surprising experience. Yeah, sometimes a difficult market, but people come out big for open studios. So for most artists in Santa Cruz, it is a probably one of your best weekends of the year in terms of sales.

SPEAKER_06 7:34

Yeah, I think there's an intentionality at Open Studios even more so than you know, Capitol Art and Wine does its thing, but it's sort of like part of a scene, and and you may or may not buy, but to get in your car, drive to somebody's house or studio, there's there's already sort of a curated intention.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Well, let's start with that. I used to work with the Capitol Art and Wine, and of course we had to say, like, who who do people want? So you would sometimes have the same artist over and over again. No, no shade to that whatsoever. But because you're bringing in 30,000 people to it, you need to have something that they want. The greatest part about open studios is you can go to where you want. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Yeah, it's overwhelming. Like every I I only am able to hit like four or five studios a year. It's it's it's kind of but if you really carve out that weekend, you get on your cruiser and the weather is good, you can cover turf. You know, it's really cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

Two weekends, right? And then north and south isn't it? I think that's the way they do it. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Exactly. The first weekend, I believe, is the North County, second weekend of October, South County, and the third weekend is all county. So put it in your calendars, it's gonna be fun. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

So are you gonna give us your address to where we're gonna go?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

Yeah, well, it's kind of cool. Uh we're at I can't remember the actual you can get out our property from Center Street or Cedar. And my wife was like, Oh, let's have people come from center, it's a busier street. And I'm like, I don't even know the address for the back building. So come to 119 Cedar and you'll find us. Uh but it's a weird lot because it has double access.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

You like you're charmed, clearly. Yeah, like not many people get to find something that unique for who they are, especially as they live the Santa Cruz life. So you had mentioned sitting with artists and what inspires them. Tell us what inspires you. Like give us a little background. What makes Ethan inspired?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Yeah, well,

Growing Up Surfing With Shark Curiosity

SPEAKER_00 9:18

uh circling back to that property a little, like my dad moved to Santa Cruz in 68, and he like two blocks away, three blocks away. No way. Uh is where the nuts meet, walnut and chestnut.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Oh, I was like, uh it's the Jerry, you're getting awfully close to Brian against the the it's you'll recognize his house.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

It's this uh green Victorian, yeah, it's really funky. And they moved into there at 68 with my grandpa, and that was you know, they never left. So that was our Santa Cruz kind of connection in the beginning. And but he moved us to South County. So I grew up in Corlitos surfing the beaches and surfing here with my dad a lot as well. And the point, yeah, yeah. My dad surfed the hook every morning. He he would drive over the hill for work at a medical clinic, and he had a Volkswagen bus, and he would get in a suit in the a shower in the lot, get in a suit and drive over the hill. Amazing. And that was you know, he's lucky to be alive driving in a tin can over the hill.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I'm surprised they got over the hills back.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

It's crazy, you know. So, but that was my upbringing as I'd surf before school with him, and that just made me obviously fall in love with the ocean, like a lot of people do here. But I kind of went a little bit farther than just fall in love with it. I I got really inspired by a marine biology teacher at Aptos High and got interested in great white sharks, which you know, everybody is thinks about them here, but I he made me think about them in a deeper way. Like, where do they go? What do they do? What are these what what you know?

SPEAKER_05 10:46

They're mysterious too.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Totally mysterious. And it was just at this point where the tagging studies were coming out showing that the sharks actually leave the California coast, swim out to Hawaii, and we're learning all these behaviors at that time. So I knew when I was 17, I wanted to be a marine biologist and and go to school to focus on white sharks. So that that's my Santa Cruz origin story for my work, is just you know, it's that combination of fear and interest that led me to want to study marine science.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

So, where did you take that? The 17, you know you want to do that, and we have all these great universities that actually provide this. How did you pick where you wanted to go and why?

Stanford Research And Aquarium Work

SPEAKER_00 11:24

There was it was very specific because there's one laboratory group at Stanford that studies Great Whites. Oh it's Barbara Bloch's laboratory. They're based down at Hopkins Marine Station in Monterey, and I was like, that's the spot. So I I applied and got lucky to get in and and got joined that lab as an undergrad and worked for them every summer for like three years. And then that ended up getting me a job at the Monterey Vay Aquarium right after because that same lab group studies bluefin tuna as well. And there was an opening for a position right when I graduated, and I was super bummed because I wanted to be an artist. Like I knew that's what I wanted to do. But I was like, oh my god, there's actual like somebody wants me to well, somebody wants to actually hire me, I know, so I should probably take the job. And I did, and it was a cool experience for sure.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

So you've been one foot in each world, the very dreamy, inspired world to I need to know science. And how do those worlds collide as you're going out there and you're looking at the ocean? And what are you finding? Like, are you when you're learning about the sharks, you're learning about the water, you're learning about how humans, how we affect things, apex predators are suffering, supposedly, you know, like but and then you have a lot of like climate change talk. What's encouraging about what you found, or what's discouraging, or or where's the scientific brain, and then how are you inspired from that?

Why Art Can Beat A Paper

SPEAKER_00 12:41

For sure. Yeah, that's a deep question. You know, I think one of the like perks of marine biology is that you just get to spend time on the water. And the more time you spend on the water, especially internet working internationally, learning from different cultures, you just start to see you the you see the problems, obviously. You you see plastic pollution, you see overfishing firsthand, you see, you know, top predators like sharks being finned and stuff. And so I've had a front row seat to a lot of really bad things in the ocean. And I it's partly what pushed me away from science and towards art was that you know, you're having all these experiences, seeing all this gnarly stuff, really beautiful stuff, you know, being eye to eye with you know great white sharks and eye to eye with thousand-pound bluefin dunas, like things that we never get to see, you know, most people don't get to see, right? And that was a blessing for sure. But then you walk away from it, like I just wrote a little science paper, and 30 people are gonna read it, and you know, I already know all these people, they already know what it was gonna say. Like it it felt very insular and it like it wasn't reaching a bigger audience with important the more maybe the more important stories, and so I felt like the I had some intuition that the art my art was gonna maybe tell those stories more effectively.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

So it gave me chills when you just said that because you're right, you're seeing my audience is so small and they already know the stuff that I know. How do there's something else calling you?

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Science has that problem generally, that it's complicated and usually pretty boring. Um and so how do you connect with people and get them to care instead of just boring them with statistics? And art is a really powerful tool. It it it crosses backgrounds, it crosses literacy and language, and it it's more of an emotional experience, and that's what ultimately gets people to care and and change behavior is emotion more than more than facts necessarily. So, what's your medium?

Turning Fishing Rope Into Seascapes

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I I got pretty into old fishing rope right around 2012. I made like a whale sculpture out of old rope I found in the garbage in San Francisco. Oh, that's cool, and pretty much have been working with that ever since. So I use really two different supply chains. One is from local fishermen, they they're they have to retire their rope after a couple years, they don't trust it anymore. There's no recycling infrastructure for rope in California, so it all goes into landfill. And we're talking like you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds of plastic waste from fisheries, so there's a huge opportunity there. The stuff was free. I always offer fishermen, hey, like let me pay you for this. And they're like, dude, just take it, it's going to be dome. Yeah, here's I pay I pay people in beers, yeah. Yeah, I like it. I like it. And and then on the other side, I work a lot in the Hawaiian Islands, and any fishing gear that's lost in the Pacific winds up on the beach in in Hawaii, basically. From the currents.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

And then you you also have a foothold in Japan. So you sort of have this whole Pacific science artist thing that you're doing, like you're helping contribute by take that let me take your fishing line or rope, rope, not line. And then we it was it were you in the shower and you're like, this rope looks like a whale. Like how how do you get there?

SPEAKER_00 15:53

I mean, it that's a little it's funny. You should see my yard. I mean, it's full of rope, like literally just piles of mountains of rope. My kids just put climb around in it all the time. Part of it is just having enough material, like to have like a palette, just like any painter would. Like, here's my reds, here's my yellows. So I I collect it like aggressively. I have tons of it, literally. And once I have you have enough material, then the idea is to start rolling, right? So that that's how I've always worked is just collect and then you know the the material has a story into itself, and then I'm basically mostly creating like seascapes, which is kind of a circular narrative of like using ocean trash to make a seascape that looks pretty, but it's kind of has this like positive-negative experience all at once, and that that's what I call cognitive whiplash. Like, oh, that's pretty. Oh, that sucks, you know. So that's hopefully getting people to think critically about some of these complex issues.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

So you're keeping this rope in its natural state, you're not manipulating it over.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I clean it sometimes if it stinks, you know, but usually I don't. Um, and yeah, no, I don't people ask if I dye it or anything, but yeah, it's all plastic, so no paint really sticks to it or anything. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's gnarly because like the stuff in Hawaii, like it's all tangled and knotted, and it's this really meditative process to untangle it, but you realize how easy it is for turtles, whales, you know, to get tangled in it, and also the reefs themselves. Like when these thousands of pounds, you know, thousands of pounds of fishing net wash up on a coral reef in a remote part of the Hawaiian Islands, it wrecks the reef. You know, it destroys those corals. And so there in it, there's a ton of this stuff out there. It's it's gnarly. And in the Hawaiian Islands, they have to burn it all. Most waste in the Hawaiian Islands gets incinerated. And so I scoop it up from these nonprofits who do beach cleanups, I donate to them, and then I bring it home to California.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

So, how do you get it home?

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Fly with it. So it's cheaper if like 30 bucks a tub versus shipping. So I that's a great excuse to go to the islands and I'm not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

The guy's got 15, 17, 35 different tubs.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

The TSA people are always like, what is happening? You know?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

So you bring it back to your studio. I do, and how do so this is kind of an overarching theme about this podcast is how do you become an artist who has a scientific back background from Stanford? You know that you have your heart pulling towards a cause, you're inspired. Now, where's the money?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Yeah,

The Hard Part Of Making Art Pay

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I mean, I I I think the first three years I was in my place on the west side, I was mostly doing printmaking, using trash, you know, like ropes and stuff to print on them, like ink them and print them. It's a Japanese technique called Giotaku, and it's usually you catch a fish and you ink that up and press the fish and you get a pat a print from the the fish. But I was doing that with trash, it's kind of like this tongue-in-cheek narrative. But they weren't really selling. I maybe sold some stuff through Open Studios, but once I started making the rote pieces in like 2017, it it something clicked, you know? And it was like, oh the hell, thank goodness. Because like I was I wasn't gonna give up, but I was like, at some point I was gonna throw in the towel and go back to college and go back for a degree at like a PC or something. And it started to kind of get traction right around then.

SPEAKER_01 19:04

That I think these are pieces you can put in. So what what's your website? Ethanestus.com. Uh yeah, yeah. So check it out while you're listening. I mean, these are beautiful pieces you can put in a luxury home or in your little bungalow or hang it in the back of your you know, VW bug. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 19:20

There's like strangely soothing, like they still look at them just in awe.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Well, that that's a that's a really interesting game for all artists of like, I guess you could say like trying to find your bread and butter. Like, what is something that you enjoy making and people want to live with in their homes? That that that took me, you know, three years, or but really longer. I mean, three years of essentially doing it mostly full-time to find traction. At that point, I was doing part-time work really for the Monterey Bay Aquarium, and that was paying the studio rent, you know. And so there's this kind of no man's land for for artists of like you want to go for it, but like you gotta have enough cash flow. And I was lucky that my it I I went really full-time in 2020 when the pandemic hit because my work in Japan, all that with Modern Bay Aquarium, that that dried out, that was gone overnight. Yeah, but as you guys probably noticed during the pandemic, a lot of people were remodeling, a lot of people were buying new homes, they didn't want to live in San Francisco anymore, or they could, or they could work remote from Santa Cruz. So I noticed a pretty solid uptick in sales, and it was a pretty lucky moment, obviously a terrible time for in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

But talking about what does the ocean bring economically to Santa Cruz County?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Sure. Yeah,

The Surf Economy And Blue Mind

SPEAKER_00 20:39

I mean, as an artist, like that that people come here because of that beautiful view, because of the wildlife, you know. I've been lucky to travel a lot, and you don't just walk around and see sea otters, you know, in other places, right? So we have this ridiculous natural capital, is what I would call it. Part of that is the surf. We should talk a bit about the Save the Waves Coalition, a nonprofit I work with a lot. They just renounced a study that about $200 million a year in revenue comes from Santa Cruz surf travel and surf tourism.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

That's incredible. How do you measure that? Does it is this the nonprofit that's measuring, or is the county actually reporting that?

SPEAKER_00 21:19

It was like a coalition that came together to understand the surf economy here. So obviously working with the surf shops, small businesses, surfboard makers, uh it you know, it's it's it's hard ultimately to to tally up.

SPEAKER_01 21:32

And that's not $200 million spent. That's revenue that goes to the county. That's taxable revenue. Yeah. And that's including I need to have a house on Pleasure Point so that I can go surfing. Is it like property taxes, all that? Because that's a lot of revenue to a county.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

That's a good question. I have to dig into the report if property taxes are factored in. I would actually guess not in that report. I would think that it's it's the thing is it's kind of intangible. I remember the late Jay Nichols, who's a local marine biologist who passed away. And a good friend. He once presented this idea of like, why do people pay more for an ocean view room? You know, because it's like three or four times more expensive in some cases. And he's tapping into the ultimate the neuroscience of what does the ocean do for us? And that is reflected in home values. It's not just I'm not it's not just about being closer to go experience it, it's about actually absorbing something from it. That that view shed, that open horizon does something to us as humans. It calms us, and he called it vitamin C, S S E A. So Jay's book is called Blue Minds, which taps into this.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

I love that book. And not only that, just in my own stressful life, we do this all day. We look down at little itty bitty screens, or we and it's the open horizon that changes something. I don't, you might know this more neurologically. It changes your parasympathetic nervous system to be safe. Open horizon means safe. When you're myopically looking at something, it's your nervous system goes fight, fight, fight, flight, fight, flight, stress.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yeah, you nailed you nailed it. That's exactly the what Jay was kind of documenting. And Santa Cruz is a beneficiary of this. You know, going a little deeper, pun intended, like when you get in the water, surfing, like there is a major, you know, mental release as well. It's obviously the exercise, the paddling, like the excitement of surfing. And those are things that are really hard to value. You know, like when you ask what surfing is worth at a dollar level, that's fascinating, that's powerful, that's actionable for decision makers in government. Like, hey, we have a resource here, but then it's super hard to quantify like what does it mean to the individual? And when you think about Stanford Cruz surf culture, when you think about mental health, like as a dad, you know, like just getting a little me time just to go decompress for a minute.

SPEAKER_05 23:48

This is absolutely true. And the reason why how I can prove this is you can catch me on most awful days where there's no waves anywhere, driving up and down the coast to find somewhere to surf in just garbage. And I will go off. It's like which is crazy because you're not catching anything, but you're still wanting to paddle around.

SPEAKER_01 24:07

Jerry, we know you don't go past 41st to go anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Come on. I've been known to go to midtown.

SPEAKER_06 24:13

I think to pin the tail on the donkey, though, because one of the ones it does feel just out of your grasp. How do you connect all of this? And I think one of the things to kind of consider, and I talked to Sean about this when that report came out, is that very similar to what Ethan did by choosing art to engage a larger audience. Well, there's a part of it with these world surfing reserves, with the economic report, like in the real estate analogy would be curbside appeal, right? Like, like what's the curbside appeal of a place and how does that increase the value of your property, right? Well, this environment is curbside appeal. The entire environment, caretaking of the environment as an extension of that number. So you have this number, what does it mean? And I think even in a small level, if you can get people thinking about this place that we live, how important that ecosystem is, gently tied in with a capitalistic number. The number moves people the meter. Like that's a lot of money. And if we do or don't want to lose that, I think you can bridge it to that has a lot to do with the overall, maybe a value of your house. And if that's what it takes for you to care, you know, about the environment or to learn a little bit more, then that's kind of the mission of Save the Waves. That's the mission of the World Surfing Reserves, it's mission. And I think it's very similar to what Ethan's done is like instead of affecting 20 to 25 people, what if you possibly do an installation or what if you possibly kind of get on a podcast or you do an interview, you have a chance to reach millions of people. And it's just like everything else we do in marketing, which is if you can say have your art reach a thousand people and two people decide they want to make a change, mission accomplished. And I think it's the same way with the, you know, the and we've talked about a little bit before as far as how do you activate and do a call to action to people, and sometimes it could be a different way than you think.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah,

Coastal Policy And Saving Surf Breaks

SPEAKER_00 26:02

though that's there's a lot in that, man. I and I think just in the Santa Cruz context, you know, we we're lucky in California. We a lot of people probably throw shade on the California Coastal Commission because it has a lot of regulatory tower.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Oh, did you see my horns go when you said that?

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yes, keep going. On another layer, though, like having traveled and surfed all over the world, like let's say I rock up in Portugal and I'm like, why are these buildings like overhanging this beach? And oh my god, that retaining wall is falling onto the sand, and there's rebars taken out. Like, zoning laws are really important. And you know, the the Coastal Act is a pretty powerful, you know, bit of legislation that when we when I look at Pleasure Point, when I look at Santa Cruz in general, like it's we're managing it as well as we can. It's it's a mess, it's always gonna be a mess because you have competing the competing interests, but at least we have for better or for worse, institutions that keep hopefully bad actors from wrecking surf spots, you know, which unfortunately happens all the time around the world. Right. You lose that resource and it you can't fix it, you know. Like historically, California, you could look at Killer Dana, who was one of the best waves on the California coast, and they built it the Dana, Dana Point Harbor right there. The wave is the wave is gone. Right. It's a bummer, but it's also now we're looking at it, there's actually an economic loss long-term potentially from that. So that that's really Save the Wave's mission is to prevent that from happening or at least to engage decision makers before it happens. And that's exactly that's the battle, really.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

So it's the battle of it, it's it's I hate to be polarized, but it's the battle of the people who enjoy the land versus the battle who are running the boardrooms. And a lot of times those boardrooms have lots of lots of money. And as you can see, if you can calculate a tax revenue of $200 million, you know, you got to draw the bridge for them. It's the surfers that are bringing that in. You take that surface. That's not people just, yes, people are still gonna come to the ocean, and or you want to build your hotel with all those views at the end of the day, that might change like again. I will give California Coastal Commission at least this. They try their very best to limit the amount of ocean front buildings possible, and that's very frustrating for people who maybe have inherited it or have the money to do something responsible with it, and the amount of fees and sand mitigation and all that that comes with it, it's not for you could buy a $10 million home on the point, but you're paying maybe a million dollars a year in sand mitigation fees or whatever, and it's it's a very big expensive risk. That is, there's a big gap between all the rest of us that live here, yeah. And so having that maintained for that, because there's a website and uh Diane Pereira, I love you. She's Bailey property, she's long time been the forefront of you know the ocean front homes here, and you can see pictures from the 40s, 50s, 60s on this specific website, and you can see already the erosion that we've gone through, especially like right here East Cliff. East Cliff used to be and Capitola, that was a two-lane road. So, meaning like Capitola and then East Cliff had even more, and it's gone back.

SPEAKER_06 29:06

So yeah, but these are this is I'm gonna tee one up for Ethan here just because we've had this conversation before, and I think I know where we'll go, but some of that erosion is sort of more of a Cadillac problem that has to do with real estate. The

Monterey Bay Resilience And Shifting Baselines

SPEAKER_06 29:20

ocean's gonna do what the ocean does. But I think I want to tee up one of our first conversations together is I think people get very overwhelmed by these conversations about where am I, not only in this Monterey Bay, but in this ecosystem on this planet. And a lot of times it's like, what can I do? And it doesn't even seem possible. And the thing that Ethan taught me a few years ago, and he led me to um uh Stephen, you know, was our lesson is right here in the Monterey Bay. And I'm not going to speak too much more about it, but Turn of the Century Monterey Bay was beyond abysmal. And I think I'll let you kind of talk about it. Like sometimes if you're overwhelmed, I think we can study our own history right now. And when we look out on this ecosystem, this pristine, overall pristine environment that is Monterey Bay. Talk a little bit about that to our listeners as far as where we were and where we are right now and how that could be a lesson, not only locally but globally.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah, I mean, so the the book you're referring to is called The Life and Death and Life of Monterey Bay by Stephen Pilumby out of Stanford. And, you know, it gets into there's another concept that is probably worth talking about called shifting baselines. And this the idea of shifting baselines is that every generation inherits a baseline perception of what the environment should be. So, like there should be this much fish, this is what it was like when I grew up, yeah, and that may be significantly reduced to what your grandparents experienced, or even farther back. And so, you know, conservationists use that concept a lot to say, oh, it's just it's worse than you think it is, you know, and this is why we should be conserving more. But it actually can sometimes work the other way where we have success stories and sometimes we don't acknowledge them. Right. Like there used to be right now, uh you call it there's Carmel by the Sea, and it's it was Monterey by the smell. You know, it was early down there. It was so heavy. Like it was a it was a heavy scene with the canneries, and the the sardines cannery system collapsed in the 40s. Some people said it was due to overfishing, but it was a combination of factors. It was yes, we were harvesting a ton of sardines, but the ocean goes through these large-scale natural cycles, one you could call Pacific Decadal Oscillation, and ultimately it shifts the regime of sardines to anchovies. And there's this really interesting and very complex cycle between the two that's been documented, documented by folks at Mbari very, very well. And so it was just this this it was like a boom and bust type of situation for Monterey. And now you go down there and it's you know, it's you got the Monterey Bay Aquarium where there used to be a cannery, and it's kind of up and coming, I guess, in some ways, and it's it doesn't stink like a Tuesday. And and okay, well, part of what happened after the collapse of the sardine fishery, we had the Magnus and Stevens Act in 1972, which manages American fisheries. Basically, it says every fishery in America is managed for maximum sustainable yield, means the the level at which you you catch a certain amount and the population will continue to sustain itself. You catch more than maximum sustainable yield, the population will go down. And so, and if you catch too less too little, then you're you're leaving meat on the bone. You should be catching more. So that's the cut that's how all American fisheries are managed after 1972. And you know, when you look at what we have in Monterey Bay, we have incredibly well-managed fisheries up and down the state as well. And that's been a decades-long process. Another shifting baseline story or recovery story that we don't talk about much is the recovery of the West Coast ground fishery, halibut, rockfish, a thing called. Man, it was it was bat a really dire picture in the 90s, and now all these fisheries are thriving. So the book, The Life, Death, Life, Death, and Life of Monterey Bay, is really one about resilience. That if you implement common sense laws, the ocean can recover. And I am really, through my artwork and just through my work, I'm trying to advocate for that. Common sense, basic science, working with communities to find the right rules to to make a resource flourish and allow people to enjoy it.

SPEAKER_06 33:32

And eventually it is speaking up, it is advocacy. And I think of like in that article that I wrote, there was Julia Platt, you know, where you have the mayor of Pacific Grove, I think she was, correct? And she basically was basically just a kind of a just say no kind of girl, you know, and was basically like, we're gonna do things differently here before. And so there's a catalyst. A lot of times I think, you know, we we sort of are ambivalent, or we don't think we, you know, a single voice can create a movement or a difference, but I think whether it be through art, whether it be through like save the waves and coalitions like that, I think that you know these stories need to be told more, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Another good one is sewer peak, right? My oh no, I doubt was surfing there in the 70s, it was gross, you know.

SPEAKER_06 34:13

That's the name.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

And and you know, we we I'm not trying to like you know sugarcoat the whole thing, like, but I try as an environmentalist, I try to advocate for positive stories where hey, look what we can do if we set good rules, you know, and you know, water quality continues to be an issue. We still have pesticide, herbicide runoff, we still have you know old stewards infrastructure, but it's better. And yes, there's room for improvement, but we need to recognize how far we've come too.

Septic Reality And Paying To Stay Pristine

SPEAKER_01 34:44

Well, that's a full circle back to our business. We now have the county who is very much involved in the well water and the septic systems. And every time you go to sell a home, you as the seller need to get a septic inspection so that you can prove that you aren't one of the problems that are leaching out into the ocean. Now, when you come back to the economic side of it, so here we are talking about like, hey, we're in the industry, we want to buy a home. Oh, it's your family, oh, this is a great thing, it's very expensive here. And then you see one reason why it's so expensive is because you're paying to keep it this pretty. You do need to have a proper septic system. Now, it goes back to that baseline. But when I my grandfather built a house out here, we had a redwood septic tank and the fisheries were fine.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 35:23

And so, you know, that's the world I'm getting into is like you have to budget living here. Yes, I know. And then the advocacy on this piece too is like whether you're upset about it or not, anger isn't the tool, the sword, the just I'm not gonna buy anything. Fuck Santa Cruz, fuck this, fuck the government. It it also the the apathy doesn't solve anything either. There is a voice to be had, but it doesn't have to be violent, and it also doesn't have to be passive. You're saying, like, I can I can show you how to do it. Here's some ways.

SPEAKER_05 35:53

Common sense is what he said, and I really like that. You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

And and it and it's such a it's a hard thing because one hand, as a scientist, like you know, I always say like with fishery stuff, it has to be science-based, but that doesn't mean you get to steamroll communities. It doesn't mean you get to make decisions without communities. Oh, the scientists said this, we have to do it. It still has to be a dialogue. And

All Waters And The MPA Fight

SPEAKER_00 36:15

so this is one of my learning experiences working with a group called All Waters, which came out of Santa Cruz in the last year. Real okay, really three years now. We've been pushing back on a local marine protected area proposal, which here I am, you know, ocean lover guy, and I'm saying I'm pushing back on a marine protected area. You know, and the reason is because as a scientist, I read this proposal, I said that's garbage. Like that doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_06 36:40

And cast some particular heat in your chat on your social media for a while.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Well, what's the details on that? So that you want it developed or you don't want it protected, or what was the position you're saying? Like the the science behind this it doesn't stand up, or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

The reason that this proposal was submitted is that we have some of the healthiest kelp forests on the California coast, right off Pleasure Point and off the west side. The petitioners, a group out of Berkeley, who, you know, didn't reach out real in a meaningful way to anybody here, said, Hey, you know, we we really need to ban fishing off Pleasure Point and off Natural Bridges because it's so healthy, we need to save it before it goes away. And that's a on one hand, this old school preservationist mindset, set it aside, don't touch it, even through the words. And and and that's not how marine protected areas work. They the only reason the only way they work or affect is if they're done as a community project. That's that's how it works around the world. You don't parachute in the Micronesia and say, hey, we're making a marine protected area. Congratulations. They say, What? You know, and and and to do it, it's a years-long community consultation process. And sometimes the marine protected area never gets built, you know, it never gets established because it it has to fit. And here in Santa Cruz, the science that was being leveraged to justify this proposal was conducted in Southern California. Very different ecosystem, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 38:05

That's what I was just gonna say. So Sempervirons just gave Big Basin three million dollars to keep the ecosystem as an ancient forest. So what we have in the hills, and now this is obviously land versions, is that we have cow fire coming in, we've got money coming into the state parks, and now we have Semper Virens, who's very specifically looking at our coastal redwoods in Santa Cruz County. Our ancient forests had different ages of forests, meaning a different age of a redwood. We had clear cutting, so all our redwoods are the same size. And what you get is you don't get the right the right word, you don't get the ecosystem that makes it the natural forest that it is. You need different ages of trees that create different flora down on the base floor that create a safer, less fire hazard situation. Whereas we're third third generation clear cutting has created a lot of these forest fire problems for us.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Interesting. Yeah, that that's a juicy one. And and you know, and that's and that's like ultimately the limitation of science of like yeah, sometimes we we start comparing apples and oranges, and that's what and and that's you know, if there's not enough information, if not enough science, okay, sometimes we roll with what we've got. But in this marine protected area situation, we had locals, we have local studies that showed that in Central California, after this big marine heat wave in 2014, where up and down the state celt forests were hammered, Santa Cruz and the Central Coast did pretty well, and that's largely because we have sea otters and sunflower stars, these predators that eat urchins. Up in Northern California, no sea otters. The celt forests are depleted by 90%.

SPEAKER_06 39:43

And those two species were gone basically from the bay during uh to tie it in, were gone during the 1930s and 40s because of that, gone. And then dude then kind of came back in. But I think the real estate tie-in to this conversation is be like Jerry writing an insurance policy without showing up and seeing the house. You know what I mean? That's almost exactly what that was.

SPEAKER_05 40:03

There's a lot of unintended consequences I see from this type of activity. Totally, right?

SPEAKER_06 40:07

Like yeah, far away legislation.

SPEAKER_05 40:10

There's a lot of uh puzzle pieces that we're you know, we're looking at one under a microscope, and there's all these other things that have like you said, the marine heat wave or whatever. Like we don't plan for that, it just happens.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

We we actually yeah, we cannot control the that variable, right? And fishing isn't the problem. Kelp does not like warm water, right? That is a core issue. We might lose the kelp forests off pleasure point in the future. And it's not gonna be from overflow. But it's not gonna be because it's not gonna have anything to do with fishing, it's just gonna be because there's a larger, larger forces at play. And so as environmentalists, I can I can hang my hat on this. We have good local studies that show, hey, we're not gonna benefit from this type of fishing closure. And kind of to the point about how do we get engaged and how do we engage positively on these issues, you know, that's what all waters kind of was formed, is there was this very obvious misalignment. Like this proposal doesn't make any sense, like straight up, and they didn't talk to anybody here. So, how do we bridge that gap? And it means showing up to the most boring meetings you've ever been to.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Oh my god.

unknown 41:17

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

And unfortunately, whether it be housing or I would say any policy issue, like people can be angry and chirp on social media, but that's doesn't really move the needle. Showing up to these meetings and having an informed comment and listening, you know, that's that's where the action is.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Well, let me put put a pin in that. That's Brian's word. The way that policies are written is people are reading the headline and they think they know what that means. You have to read the entire policy to see what is at play, what is that consequence, who is funding it. Meaning, like, is it your tax dollars funding it? But also, you know, what are these the the the law it gets very convoluted and we live in again the scroll world where we're reading one-liners. And so to be, I think if you could take one step for advocacy, in my opinion, is that if you care about one thing, read it. Yeah, read it.

SPEAKER_05 42:13

I think a lot of this extreme stuff though, too, comes from good places, right? Like people have a heart for the ocean. I I'm I I hunt, and there's a lot of this in the world of hunting, right? Like we animals are beautiful. Why would you kill an animal? But you have to do this responsibly to manage numbers, and people don't really understand that, you know. So you have a lot of people with you know, a voice about this, but you know, and they're they're coming from a good place, but they don't really have all the facts, you know, and that's what it seems like is going on in the marine world.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, anybody who lives on Pleasure Point probably had a college student knock on their door and say, uh with a survey, say, Hey, do you support the strongest protections for the kelp forest? And say the one-liner. Yeah, one liner. Yeah, they get you, they book you. Right, absolutely, and they'll sign that any day of the week. Well, if you ask people, do you support banning fishing off of uh Santa Cruz, acknowledging that it's completely sustainable and is a huge asset for the community, you know, and and and for a broad community, a ton of people get out, get to use these this resource. It's a public resource, and so there's like you know, kind of environmental justice repercussions from just closing off access to a safe place and is that is issues for kids, right? Like I first time I ever fished was off Pleasure Point off a rental boat of the Capitol Wharf. That's the only boat rental business in the state, basically. And in you know, you're you're gonna you're gonna kill that business by doing this.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

So by the way, I saw like six boats this morning leaving out to go fishing.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

It's epic. Yes, Samus is his own.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

That that so you know, in terms of making policy from afar, this organization didn't do their homework, didn't talk to anybody in the community, and you know, sent and they paid kids to come out and say, Do you support the strongest protections for the Celp Force? It's really a master class in how not to. Create a marine protected area. And it unfortunately there's it's created a lot of division in the community because people are like, hey, I want to help. Like I we're you know, we're Santa Cruz. We we should protect the ocean, you know. But this is not the thing to focus on. This is not a legit proposal, you know. So it's a really unfortunate situation.

Nonprofit Partnerships That Actually Work

SPEAKER_00 44:19

So that's thanks for getting me talk about people. Check out All Waters. It's some Sean Dahler, a couple other local local guys are doing a good thing, getting people organized and learning about the actual facts about this issue.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

So does some of your art proceeds go to All Waters or Save the Wave?

SPEAKER_00 44:36

I haven't donated to All Waters yet. I'm on the board there, so I have to think about how that would work. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Okay, let me the real the reality. Thanks, Brandy. This podcast just cost him a ton of money. Let me rephrase this question.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

I donate to stand for age for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Not what I meant. What I really meant is the real question behind that is usually when you see an artist, they say pro portions go to whatever. But on your art displays, do you say basically what you're advocating? I my art is inspired by, and here's where you where one could donate. Yes. Not specifically, I did not mean to do that to you.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

No, I mean I I I should do an all this should be a beneficiary. I I always have a nonprofit partner because, and I will say this to other art people who are trying to make it as an artist. That's the thing that if I have had any success at all, it's been because of partnerships with nonprofits. It's like a perfect duo. The the nonprofits are always trying to get eyeballs on their their mission, eyeballs on their on their work and funding. And on the other side, artists, you know, they're trying to find their audience, people who care about the same things that they care about. And so if you're an artist, find a nonprofit that you are aligned with and start collaborating. That to me is the a sweet combo.

SPEAKER_06 45:48

Create the whole company on that. I mean, that is vibes. That's like we were just talking about before on the podcast. Before that is, I think it's a it's a unique and very obvious infrastructure for businesses and even artists. It doesn't have to just be artists. I think if more businesses partnered with nonprofits as part of their daily activity, abdicated some intellectual property, not just cash, but basically access, I think it would can change the planet. I really feel that.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

It's it's a synergistic thing. Yeah. That's all I can really say. I I I I partner with fire, I I can start listing them. Sustainable coastlines Hawaii, Alt Oahu, Center for Marine Debris Research, Save the Waves, All Waters. I mean it surfrider a lot. Yep. There's all these different Surfrider chapters. So I just donated Surfrider Marin up in after a show up in up in the North Bay. And so that's fun because I get to meet people, I get to meet their audience, they get to see the work. It's this really cool relationship. And I'm not making them much money, but it part of what we're dealing with just as environmentalists is messaging fatigue. Right. And that to me is one of the value that I as an artist can bring is like, dude, we have heard about climate change so many times, like it's such a bummer, like we're screwed. And you know, to have something, or we've heard about plastic pollution so much, like we all really know about these issues, but I think it's nice to have an event where people can get together and talk about stuff with people who care. And that's what art can do is create these little community events, and the nonprofits kind of spin off of that and get energy from it too. They get people on their mailing lists, and it it's it's I can't really talk that up enough as a strategy for artists. Totally. It's it's more than strategy, it's just what I do, you know. So that's a funny thing.

SPEAKER_06 47:33

But there's actually a name for it. It's called the Halo Effect, and I think the Halo effect is you know, it's it's basically incorporating nonprofits in your business model, incorporating nonprofits in collaborations and partnerships like that, because it might not have that A to B transactional nature in that first relationship. But what it does is that Halo effect creates goodwill for your brand, for your artistry, and elevates your overall price points, costs. And it doesn't, it's not just artists, it's all the way around. Um and it really is encouraging. There's some there's statistical facts that if you kind of surround yourself and abdicate that space, it's a long game, but you do get it, you do get a reward for that by participating in the community that way. I had

Plastic Solutions And Producer Responsibility

SPEAKER_06 48:12

a question about like the as in your time doing this, is there anything interesting happening from an you know, basically an innovation standpoint for more sustainable ropes or anything like that? Or are we just stuck in what it is?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah, that's that's a great question. You know, you know, so very specifically I make art out of old fishing rope, right? I mean, sometimes other stuff like old golf balls collected off the beach, off pebble beach and stuff. But you know, mostly I work with old fishing rope either intercepted for fishermen or collected off the beach. So what do we do with that story, right? Where's the hope? Where's the action? And I am happy to say that there are there are positive narratives out of this, right? On one hand, we could talk about what is what is you know, how what does actual recycling look like? What does upcycling look like? I am good friends with uh some guys out of Oxnard who collect old fishing nets and they melt them down. And if you buy a Patagonia jacket, today, I mean it's 80% of the fabric is from their old fishing nets. Amazing. So that's about creating value from something that was previously seen as waste, right? And so, and it's also about the meta story there is about circularity. So if Coca-Cola or major brands actually participated in recycling, there would be a a much better outcome. Right right now, we only per recycle about 10% of our plastics in in America, and I think that's partly because things are designed with multiple different types of plastic, right? So packaging like that can't be recycled, and so it goes to landfill or gets shipped over to Vietnam and then it gets landfilled or burned. You know, that's that's what's happening right now. So the the main term for this would be called extended producer responsibility. So it basically makes the polluter pay to dispose of the end the product at the end of life, and that and and it's and it creates an incentive for them to design something that's easy to take care of when it's at the end of life.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

So what you're saying is the packaging. So like the plastic, and you open it, then it's plastic wrapped, and then there's four things in it that are plastic wrapped, and then like those little plastic pieces are not recyclable.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

Totally. Yeah, fit like plastic films are super hard to recycle, and it's an example of like these are there are other solutions here, but they're taking the cheapest route because they're not dealing with it after. But we collectively, the planet, uh there's a social cost ultimately when that little plastic bag you use ends up in somebody's yard in Indonesia and they're melting it in their yard. Right because they got nowhere to put it.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Well, I know Ryan has a burning question, his his favorite question.

SPEAKER_04 50:40

Unintended.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

No.

SPEAKER_04 50:42

I'm still stuck on the great white shards.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:45

47 minutes ago. I love

Public Art Installations From Chance Meetings

SPEAKER_04 50:49

sharks too.

SPEAKER_06 50:49

Hey, and one and one art question too that was lingering in my head is like, I want to kind of get to I I've lost track of like your major installations. I know there was Outer Known. I know I ran into through a picture when I was in Waikiki of the Outrager. But on installations that are beyond like the scope, what's going to go on a wall and things like that, do they hire you and have you get inspired by the space, or do you basically interpret their, you know, what they want for the space? How does that work?

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Well, I I have I've done a fair bit of work in that arena. Like the best story I could tell you is we're running a public sculpture I have down in Huntington Beach. Yeah. That's on the main street, right up from the pier. And I literally met this guy over a beer at an event in Laguna, and he's like, hey, I like that whale tail sculpture you made that rope. Can you make one that lasts a hundred years? Like, sure, dude.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Plastic, right? Yes. No problem.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

Yeah, old plastic will last you have 500,000. I ended up making a large-scale uh whale tail sculpture for the city of Huntington Beach. And it's this honestly, it's just luck. But in that, I had to I had to pitch my design to this the design review board of Huntington Beach, right? And they're like, we're we love your idea because we're so sick of surfer sculptures. Like we have so many surfer and wave sculptures in this town, like it's finally something different, it's still ocean-y, it's a large blue blue whale tail diving down into the sidewalk that's made out of old stainless steel cable that is you know the same material that the container ships use to unload and load the containers. These are the same ships that are steamrolling blue whales and humpbacks outside San Francisco Bay and the port of Long Beach. So there's a narrative of there about the issue of ship strikes, which is a huge problem for whales. And so I was trying to talk about that and bring it into the public domain. So they in my experience, there's a lot for any kind of public installation or anything, it's luck because there's uh the hundreds of artists lined up for that gig.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Okay, so this guy just happened to be like, yeah, like this gonna go down your on your website, your exhibitions and your events. I mean, it's from Maui to Japan to San Francisco to Capitola. I mean, you're you you you've landed in really big places.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

I mean, I I I think as a surfer, like I always wanted to find a way to just travel and surf and be by the ocean, and and art turned into that. I was I was never good enough to make it as like a competitive surfer, right? So I I found another way to do it. And so yeah, I I was just in Japan for for four weeks with my family, and I got waves and made art, and I I am that's my dream, right? I'm I'm really pushing to create those opportunities, and it all comes out of random friendships over the years, just people we meet and say, hey, come over and make some art in Japan.

SPEAKER_06 53:29

Hey, we're bringing it home January 27th. This whole art gallery, Ethan Estus.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

Yay!

SPEAKER_02 53:35

January 27th. That's great.

SPEAKER_06 53:36

Yeah, and so we're bringing it right here to Sunny. And then I've got one more before Brandy kind of closes out that I I'm dying to because last time we kind of spoke in this scope of the environment, we were doing a small little kind of question and answer. I remember

Climate Change Hope Without Denial

SPEAKER_06 53:50

turning the camera back on, it was about global warming. I remember asking you, it still stuck with me is to ask you if it's too late. And the last question I expect you to say was, yes, it's too late. But then there was the big word but. And at that point, the baby was still in your wife's tummy. And so I think answer that question right now about global warming a little bit and about like, you know, where we are with it as kind of a society, and then you know, what hope do we have?

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah, that's the heavy one, right? I I'll say it's not even necessarily just about like climate change or you could apply this to any issue, really, is that we're we are still actively deciding what the future is gonna look like, right? So with climate change, you have these projections. How bad is it gonna be? And right now, by not acting on these issues, we're essentially by default choosing the worst case scenario. And that but we can and it's there's basically a different spectrum of bad. And I think that is where it is it too to your question of is it too late? Oh yeah, like we missed we missed several deadlines, you know, to to take action. So we're gonna be dealing with that. And that's just the the cold reality, unfortunately. Is it complicated? Yeah, but there's gonna be consequences for our inaction. So, you know, that's not a very hopeful thing to say, but I will say it's the practical reality of what we're dealing doing as our as a species is you know, not necessarily always making the best decisions and then at the last minute, hopefully taking action. Right. That's how we act, that's how that's how we are as individuals, that's how we are as a society. We we we tend to be reactive to things when the problem comes to our doorstep. But hopefully we can start to plan ahead. I mean, there's some discussion about ensuring surf spots, and that's a new new thing that Save the Waves is doing. We accept that it has this value, but what happens when it gets wiped out, you know, from an illegal development or from you know sea level rise? How can we mitigate that that impact and plan ahead so that we have funds in the future to help fix it? Yeah, there's there's growing movement around this idea of climate insurance. And you know, we all we can do right now is plan and try to pick the best the best case scenario that we can muster up as humans. It's a complicated problem.

SPEAKER_05 56:04

Um you know what I mean, like not just the United States. I think there's so many components to climate change that I can't really wrap my head around. Like when I when I look at it, it's like, okay, well, we're talking about this, but now we're launching bombs and missiles in any administration. Sure. Right. That seems to have a, I would think has an effect, right? Like there's all kinds of complicated issues around that. But I just don't and I don't know that our kids can digest all that either.

SPEAKER_00 56:30

No, and that's that's true. And it that's that's the messaging fatigue that we're dealing with, is that we've known about this issue for what 20, 30 years or or even farther, but it's been ever since Al Gore's an inconvenient truth really shook things up and you know, almost to the point it's it's been successfully become a polarized issue. That's the beauty, that's the the master stroke of what the fossil fuel industry has done is made it divisive. When really we're talking about clean air, we're talking about things that we really all should kind of be interested in.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Well, and I feel like being in the United States, you feel the the the weight of the responsibility is on you, the driver, sure, the eater, the builder, you know, and and the reality is I think we this is another conversation, we can hold the bigger companies that are mass producing more responsible than taking it personally on the other side.

SPEAKER_05 57:16

I'll give you a first hand example that doesn't make sense to me. Diesel exhaust emission standards. I have to put a separate plastic container of fluid in my truck. And then what do I do with that plastic container? I throw it away. Like that, none of that stuff really makes sense to me. And it's like, you're right, it's message fatigue. And and I think that like we're listening to whoever the administration is at the time tell us all these things, and then they fly on a private jet somewhere, and you're like, what is going on? Like, and then you know, we're making all this stuff in China, and they don't care about the environment. Actually, they're coming around, right? Like, sure, I've heard they're coming around a bit, but very much so. Yeah, no, it's interesting. Like, I hear my son talk about it, and it's just like they that generation of youth has totally missed the message completely. Like they have no idea of how to deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Well, I can't blame them because, like you said, Brandy, it it has been a successful campaign to make it a personal choice, a personal problem. And in my opinion, you you kind of have to have a little bit of both, right? You have to have basic awareness, like, okay, I'm gonna do my part. Yeah, you know, I'm gonna do the control of things I can't, I'm gonna pick that one issue that I know something about in my community, and I'm gonna go to those boring ass meetings, and I'm gonna sit there and try to do my part. There's there's a lot of civics involved in environmentalism. But in my hope, my optimism is that that cumulatively has an effect on decision makers who are in power to not come up with stupid stupid rules that don't, you know, that are continuing to punish the little guys. Right. You know, I think that plastics story, extended producer responsibility, that's a good example of you know, the people who have the power to change things are profiting off of not changing anything right now. That's what that's that's where we're stuck.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

And I like the way you're saying that, but I still want to ask Ryan's burning question. You want me to ask it for you since you clearly don't know it's not a good thing.

Favorite Santa Cruz Food And Closing

SPEAKER_00 59:07

This hit me.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

Just to know what your favorite place is to eat in Santa Cruz.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

Oh, a tough one. You didn't even know it didn't. Well, yeah. I'm great question. I love Bantam. I my studio is around the corner. Around the corner from Bantam. It's it's always a good time. And it's really loud in there, so when I bring my screaming kids in there, no, no near, you know, so that that's a good vibe.

SPEAKER_01 59:30

What's your go-to meal at Bantam?

SPEAKER_00 59:32

You know, we ate the pizzas like are variable, so I'm always hoping they have this one bacon pizza. And then the fried chicken is next level. Fried chicken is next level. So huge fan. But then Hans and Heidi, H and H fresh Fish, I just saw that up spot on the west side. So I'm really, really proud of them. Yes. Because yeah, I mean, let's think we have all this fresh seafood here, and if you're not getting it from Hans and Heidi or you know, or from a trusted source, it's coming from overseas, and all these issues of plastic pollution, that's all coming from from basically from overseas, right? So I that's one of the main takeaways from my artwork is let's support the local sustainable fisheries because the alternative is is not pretty. I've seen it. Yeah, it's it's not really out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Well, thank you, Ethan Estes. Where can they find you? Where can people find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

You know, I I I struggle to to stay up on the social media, but I am at EstesArt and Science or EthanS.com.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Yeah, check out his website, EthanS.com, because there's a lot of great information in there and where your exhibits are going to be or your open studios.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:32

Open studio. Yeah, come say hi. Sunny California, January.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

Check out the the the funky old studio, the funky news studio behind the house. So yeah, come check us out.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:41

Well, thank you, thank you. Again, this is OTC Podcast. I'm Brandon Jones with KW Thrive at 831 588 5145.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:48

Ryan Buckhold, 831 818 2339, cross country mortgage. Jerry Seagraves, Seagraves Insurance, 831 239 9425.

unknown 1:00:58

Thanks.