AI Part 2

Walter, Mark and Kirk continue the exploration on A.I. Hope this conversation is helpful. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast. This podcast exists as a resource and part of the Ministry of Commonplace Church, the Mental Health Ministry. If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit us at commonplacechurch.org. Opening to open conversation.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hello, and welcome to With All Your Mind. I'm Walter F. Rodriguez, and with me are my co-hosts, Dr. Mark McNear and Pastor Kirk Ruprecht. And today we're going to be talking about George Mallon. You guys know George? Finally.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

Do we know George? Georgie.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Everybody loves George. Oh no, that's Raymond. Yeah, that's the wrong sitcom. I love Raymond and George. And George.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

So Walter, tell us about George.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

So George, so George is a 46-year-old man from Liverpool. Um, and I read about him in a story in The Atlantic recently. He had his blood drawn as part of a routine physical, and he was informed that something might be wrong. So the preliminary blood test had come back positive for blood cancer, and he was told that more tests would be needed to would need to be run. And um as he waited to hear back about the tests, he did what a lot of people are doing these days. He turned to AI, specifically in this case, it was ChatGBT. So for two weeks, he spent hours every day talking with AI about his potential diagnosis. Uh, and he said, it just sent me around on this crazy Ferris wheel of emotion and fear. Then he got a very important phone call. It had been a false positive, and he didn't have cancer at all. But George didn't stop. He kept talking to ChatGBT every day, asking it about everything he felt in his body, afraid of every sensation, uh, afraid that every ache or pain or headache might mean something sinister is happening. And of course, he was spurred on by the AI's responses. He started believing that maybe, maybe he just had a different kind of cancer, or maybe it was multiple sclerosis or ALS, and he became convinced that something was wrong with his body. He kept talking to ChatGPT about these worries and spent a lot of money seeing various specialists as he got uh MRIs on his head, on his neck, on his spine. And those conversations with AI spiraled into him developing crippling health anxiety. Despite test after test coming back negative and proving that he wasn't sick, he says he could not put Chat GPT down. The AI kept conversing with him, letting him know that it was worried about him. So it surfaced article after article about symptoms and diseases for him to read, and his anxiety continued to get worse. Eventually, our friend George told the reporter that was writing the story that he'd been sober, was the word that he used, which is interesting, from talking with Chat GPT for seven months and that he was slowly trying to get better, but he eventually went back to it and fell briefly into that routine again. And George's story, one that a few years ago would only have existed in a sci-fi novel, has become surprisingly common. People have always had the urge to Google their symptoms, despite doctors warning them against it. But AI, with its friendly personality and the ability to talk to you as if it was your friend, makes the trap all the harder to resist. So today we're gonna talk about health anxiety and AI and how they can come together in some not so great ways sometimes. But I'm gonna start with a question for you guys Have you ever looked up symptoms that you were feeling and felt worse because of the response that you got?

SPEAKER_04 3:22

Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Mark is always so good. Of course, we all have. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:33

Yeah. When I when I hurt my back, I went to Dr. Google to yes, yeah. WebMD, I believe they call it.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don't, I don't actually remember. There was something recently where I did it, it was within the last like two months. I just can't remember what it was. But yeah, just Googled away. I was like, oh thank God it didn't, it never so far has gone anywhere beyond the just the initial, like, let's see what pops up. Um, but yeah, you never know.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

I also think I just try to avoid it. Like if it's if it's not if I can't see that it's something, then it's not real. Yeah, yeah. Which is not a really great way to live either. Oh I can so so relate to that. We love denial.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Yeah, no, thank you, thank you for that.

SPEAKER_05 4:19

Yeah, you gotta covering all the bases for people to answer.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, yeah. So a follow-up to that. Um, have you ever been trapped by curiosity? Just gotten obsessed with a question that you couldn't stop asking, and it doesn't necessarily have to be health related.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. In a I I guess what I would ask you, Walter, is are you saying in a healthy way or an unhealthy way? Because I would say that I've gotten trapped with both. Yeah, yeah. And I I think to detriment with unhealthy ways of getting curious about something and going down a rabbit hole, yeah, and then going more. And we'll talk about anxiety with that.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Yeah, of course. That's a key part. Could you share a healthy one since you said in healthy ways, too?

SPEAKER_04 5:04

Yeah, so I'm curious. I I have been getting a lot of headaches lately and just wondering what would be best for me. Yeah. And so going down the rabbit hole would be I must have a brain tumor. Yes, of course. Yeah. So I I think that that's how I would differentiate between the two. Yeah. Curiosity is a good thing. Yeah. You know, I I think that depending on your background, you might become obsessive with certain ailments or or wondering what certain things are. But I and and Kirk, I can so resonate with that idea of, you know, if I don't get my blood work done, I won't know what's bad. And so then I don't have to worry about it, which is just kind of delusional. That's totally delusional. You know, but it it seems to work. Yeah. You know, until it doesn't. Until it doesn't. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 5:49

Yeah. I'm not up. I'm not uh saying I'm not delusional about the process being delusional. Yeah. I'm aware of it. It's very aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah. Well, self-awareness counts for something and something different. It makes it one point different out of one thing. Absolutely. So, Mark, I I have a question for you. When we get stuck in those feedback loops, I love that you said curiosity, right? So feedback loops of curiosity. Uh, and even when we get an answer, we keep going back for more sometimes to see if maybe the answer was wrong or if something has changed. Like George got the test back and it was negative, but then he was like, Well, it was positive the first time. So is this time right? Is that time right? And so you you kind of find reasons or excuses to to go back. Is that considered an OCD or anxiety or something else? What are you? Yeah, that's a really good question.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

I would say that all of it is anxiety. Yeah. Whether it's OCD, that that would be something that you would have to look at individual to individual. Yeah. Because a lot of things mask and and uh mimic OCD that aren't OCD. You know, I I think just to let people kind of think about this, yeah, a lot of times we get really we get news and it hits us really hard.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

And it shows up in our bodies.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:02

And so our bodies get uptight, and then that says sends messages to the brainstem, and then it tells us horror stories in our mind. And so then our brain tries to outrun it. And if we don't relax the body, it just continues to do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

The other thing is while the body's uptight, you know, with other things, you know, it becomes you know, symptom prone. Yeah. And so then we start noticing things that we would never notice before. Yeah. And so again, it becomes this feedback loop where the brain is telling horror stories about what's going on in the body, and we don't even know that's happening. So the work is needed in the body to relax the body. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

That's good. That's really good. Yeah, we need to talk about that more. That's really great. Um I I think the central tension with this for us is I think what we're looking for is certainty, but reality has precious little certainty to offer. And AI, the AI well, let's call it that, tends to have a lot less certainty than other sources like doctors, right? So I think there's this, there's this desire in us for certainty to know something for a fact.

SPEAKER_04 8:15

Yeah, and I I would go a step further and say there's a desire for control. Oh, yeah. And so if we have the certainty, then we and we don't, but but we fool ourselves into believing that we have control. And I love that Kirk talks about often there's very, very little, if anything, yeah we have control over. Yeah. But we don't want to think that way because it would just make us too overwhelmed. Yeah, it would be an example. And and so if we can even go to, and that's part of this dipping in into the well, you know, you feel anxious, and so that's an obsession that you start obsessing about something. What if, what if, what if. Yeah. And then the compulsion comes. Yeah. And the compulsion for somebody with OCD, let's say, yeah, is you drive by somebody and you go, What happens if I hit them? And I didn't realize it. And so then in order to remediate that anxiety, you turn around to check to see if the person's laying on the ground. The problem with that is that when you pass them again, yeah, it triggers all over again. Uh-oh, what happens if I hit them this time? Yeah. And so you get into this loop.

SPEAKER_05 9:20

It doesn't resolve type thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

So so the idea with this thing with chat GBT is you have this information. What if? Right. What if with this blood test it's true? Yeah. So what I do to remedy that is I go to Chat GBT.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:37

And so I ask it, and it gives me a certain amount of information, tons probably, that's not objective to me, but just giving me information. Yeah. Okay. And so I go there and I go, okay, and I feel better.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

For a few minutes. Yeah. But then as I walk away from the computer, I'm like, did it say A or did it say B? Or did it say C?

SPEAKER_00 10:01

Or maybe I asked it the wrong question. Did I phrase it right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

And so you see how the rabbit hole is constructed by that. And so you're going back and forth and back and forth. And it's really painful. Yeah. Because you never get relief from what's going on in your body.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Wow. Oh, that's fascinating. Huh. So I I love that you kind of broke down compulsions because I think that's that's something that a lot of people don't understand.

SPEAKER_04 10:25

Well, you know, another one just maybe people will resonate with this. Yeah. Is that idea that people touch something and they feel like they're contaminated. Right. Yeah. And so they wash their hands. Yeah. And they wash them again and again because it's never really enough. Right. And so then they walk away from the faucet and they're like, did I use enough soap? Right. Right. And so it just becomes this vicious cycle.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

That unless somebody's able to, and it's really hard to do, unless somebody's able to push away from that and say, you know what, I've done all I can do.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

And again, it comes up in the body. And so as it's coming up in the body, it tells horror stories to the brain.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Yeah. I learned a lot. Yeah, that's we should just call that a closing episode. Yeah, thanks. Great. Thanks, Mark. Let's go. Poor George. Poor poor George. I didn't get this much from George. That's what I hope. George, Madeline. We appreciate you, sir. Um, so I came across this, and since we're we're we're kind of talking about this now, I came across this phrase, and and I would love for you to maybe unpack it a little bit. The uh the sentence was OCD is not about the content, it's about the cycle. And I think you were kind of talking about some of that now. So like the actual way that it manifests isn't as important as what it is, like what the underlying compulsion in it is.

SPEAKER_04 11:39

Is that yeah, I I think that going like the what is the root issue? Right. And the root issue is feeling discomfort, and the remedy to discomfort, which people hate when I say this, is sitting with discomfort. And nobody wants to sit with those uncomfortable feelings. But that's how your window of tolerance with emotions gets wider. So if you're continually running for a remedy that doesn't work anyway, you know, people have said to me they have like been in this cycle of turning around and checking, and every time it gets worse. Yeah. Because now they've compounded it with nine, ten, twelve trips. Yeah. So I don't know if I'm answering the question. Yeah, I think that's a good answer.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

You're sitting sitting in the discomfort that can prove that you're gonna be okay. Yeah, right. Whereas like if if you can endure it, right? I'm not saying that flippantly, but like if you can endure it, it's almost showing that you're you're alright. You know? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Um and so there is the activating event and then there is the response. And if we can widen that space and sit in that discomfort, you know, that's for everything. You know, how many times do we have an urge to do something that's not healthy? Right, and instead of sitting and letting it rise and then fall, that emotion, yeah, we jump in in the middle and try to remedy it.

SPEAKER_05 13:06

Yeah. Very true.

SPEAKER_04 13:10

So I I would say in the example of you know, having your hands contaminated and then going to the sink, the sink is really AI.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

You know, it's a it it feels like it's something to comfort you. Right. The problem is it never satisfies. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Yeah, one of the quotes uh that I found from the uh National Institute of Uh Compulsive Disorders was using AI for constant reassurance may temporarily reduce anxiety, but ultimately strengthens the O C D cycle.

SPEAKER_04 13:40

Yeah, and and and if people don't get anything else out of this except George's story and this, you know, anxiety lessens perception.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:50

And and so the more anxious you become, the the more likely you are to see something unclearly. Yeah. You know, you've had people say, like, I'm so anxious, I'm so nervous, I can't think straight.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Yeah, that's what happens.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

I'm learning. I should just let you talk the whole time. We should just take notes correctly. So this is a good lecture. Let them talk about it. This is fantastic. We're gonna double your salary, Mark. Yeah, you're working hard to do. I'll look for the check. Yeah, yeah. Um, one of the things that I think is uh kind of problematic with uh AI in in this particular case is that it is uh it gives you unlimited reassurance, right? It's always available, it's never fatigued, but also it never says that's enough. I think if you're talking to a friend and you're going to the friend every you know four hours with uh something that you're spinning out of control with, eventually I think they'll be like hey, listen, you you're out of control. We gotta you gotta calm down, you gotta stop, and AI is never gonna do that to you. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 14:50

So yeah, it's Yeah, and AI doesn't in a in a true way, it never says, you know what, it sounds like you're struggling with this. What do you need? Right. It never turns back to you, I don't think, and says, you know, Kirk, it sounds like you're really punishing yourself over this. What do you need?

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:08

And then to let you kind of sort out and problem solve.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

Yeah, no, it's yeah, the discovery process isn't available in Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Um, and we talked about the doubt loop. Uh you talked about it really just beautifully, Mark. Uh the idea that every answer that AI gives you generates a new uncertainty, which creates more questions, which deepens that spiral, and it just keeps sending you down the that rabbit hole. It's always like, wait, maybe I asked the wrong thing. Or it hinted at this. Is this what it was trying to say? Maybe that's and then you just keep going.

SPEAKER_05 15:43

Yeah, it's like um there's a you know, there's a professionalism when you go see a doctor, right, where they will they may have an idea what's going on, but they don't just list like every possibility during your you know your exam, right? Yeah, I think if they did, you know, what it would do is obviously cause this panic. Yeah. You know, and I think AI doesn't have that filter, right? So it just will list all the potential things. Here are all the ways that you could be dying at this very moment.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

Yeah. Yeah. And and the problem with symptoms in a vacuum is that it could be anything. The headache, uh migraine is a symptom of so many different things that it could be. And so and and that's the way that we generally experience things. When people run AI, it's usually one or two things are wrong. It's not 10 different things. Um, and so there's it's the answer you're gonna get back is probabilistic and it's not deterministic. Like it's not, you know, we've been through all of these things, we've tried these tests, this is what we know that it is or don't know that it is. It's more like, well, there's a 37% chance that you could have, you know, these nine different things. And especially for lay people, non non-medical um people, uh it's scary, right? Because you're not trained to think in that scientific way.

SPEAKER_05 17:00

Yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

So you even if there's a 5% chance that the thing that you have is whatever, you're gonna jump to that 5% chance because it's on the list. We tend to look, we're we're catastrophizing things. We look for the the scariest of the possibilities because that's the way our brains work. We want to protect ourselves from the worst case scenario, so we prepare for it. And in this case, that's not helpful if it's just a migraine or if it's you know, whatever, we jump to the whatever um instead of I'll probably be okay tomorrow morning when I wake up.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Yeah, so yeah, and it's really setting the body up to get more and more tense. Yeah. And as the body gets more and more tense, as I said, it tells horror stories to the brain.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And so we talked about this a little bit, and it it was one of the things in reading that Atlantic story that really caught my my eye was when George described his not using Chat GPT for seven months as being sober. Um, so instead of breaking compulsions, AI can become the compulsion. Sure. Um, and I think I've definitely started to see it in some people. Um, just in regular conversation, I was talking to, I was giving a tour uh at work, I want to say it was it was last week, it was like Wednesday or Thursday, and uh we were talking about something or other, and the woman that I was talking to said, well, you know, and then as soon as I got home, obviously I I went to Chat GPT and blah, blah, blah. And it was such a like, well, of course, this is what you do when you get home thing. And I've been seeing that slip into conversations more and more often. It's become kind of like Google, right? Google became a verb because everybody's using the search engine. Um, it's just become so ubiquitous that now it patterns of language are changing where people are talking about it as like that's what you do, almost like social media, right? Everybody, you're weird if you don't have social media. Everybody just expects you to have it. Now it's almost like everybody just expects you to use Chat GPT or whatever flavor of AI. Um, and I it like it, it's not I'm not trying to be a Philistine and be like, oh, all tech is bad and let's get away from it, but uh it hasn't been around very long. Sure. Um, AI is advanced at such a quick pace that six years ago, five years ago, we weren't talking about it at all, and now it's everywhere that you turn. And so with something like this and something as powerful as it is, we haven't really done a whole lot of research yet on what are the what does addiction look like? What is the the sobriety was that's so calling it sober was so powerful for me in reading that it was it was sobering to get it.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Absolutely, yeah. And the reporter was describing him and saying he was jittery as he was talking about it. I'm like, man.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

And I and I think for this context, it is good to talk about it in a negative mindset because it it's causing problems with this area.

SPEAKER_05 19:54

Right, right, right. Yeah, and there's the I think the challenge with current state of AI is there's no regulations, it's not regulated. There's and I think that's with anything when you're there's zero regulations, it can be incredibly dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah. Good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

And one of the things that you talked about, Mark, was like the the kind of antidote to this anxiety is sitting in it, right? Um, and learning to to tolerate that. Um, and I think we use AI as a a way to escape uncertainty. Sure. We want the answers. And then not just AI, you know, we go to a lot of things, people go to fortune tellers, they go to whatever, but I think AI has become the very easy to reach for solution now, um, when they're uncertain about anything. And it used to be, I think it kind of started as like, how do I write an email? How do I, you know, create a resume? And now it's like, what should I tell this person at work? You know, like we're trusting it with all of our decision making, which um can be either really terrible or or okay. But in this case, uh, do you trust it with your health decisions? You know, like is that where I want to go to find out? Do I trust my doctor more than I trust this thing? Um, somebody that studied it for a n a long time and probably has also had a lot of experience in the field practicing medicine, or do I trust this thing that didn't exist four years ago and that I've now sent all my health information into?

SPEAKER_05 21:25

Yeah, one of the things I shared earlier was the idea of like chat GPT doesn't give us an examination. Yeah. Right. And so I think there's value in the human aspect of being able to examine like these these issues, these health related issues, you know, it's just it just gives information, right? And I think that can be, you know, obviously fairly dangerous if it doesn't go with information without being looked at, you know.

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Yeah. It doesn't give uh second opinions either. Yeah. You know, that's one of the things that we have done that's really wise wise is if we're not comfortable with what we're We've heard we can always go to a second or third doctor for opinions. That doesn't happen in Chat GPT.

SPEAKER_05 22:06

Yeah. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Wait, so your Chat GPT doesn't give you an exam?

SPEAKER_05 22:14

I I've asked it to, but it's it's refused.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Ah I shouldn't have sent those pictures. We're not at that level yet, I guess. I don't know. It's like I've got a skin lesion, I think. What is this? And I keep sending it photos. So this is something that I that I came across, and and you've kind of talked about it a little bit. Um, but with AI, there's no boundary setting, right? Therapy, at least in my maybe it's just because I I need boundaries in my life. But um, my experience with it was a lot of really understanding boundaries, setting boundaries, talking about boundaries, um, becoming comfortable with boundaries and how they can be helpful and and um healthy. And AI doesn't really have that at all. Um, it can say whatever it wants to you, it can ask you questions that are incredibly personal, and for some reason, I think a lot of people end up opening up to it and not drawing a boundary of like, I'm not gonna discuss this with a chat bot. Um and so how does that differ from a therapy session, Mark, where a therapist is usually not just aware that boundaries exist, but is usually talking about them.

SPEAKER_04 23:23

And yeah, I think it has a hard time reading the room. Yeah, that's for sure. You know, and and so a lot of times when a client comes in to see me, if they are very dysregulated, if they're really like hyper-roused and really anxious, I'll change my voice tone to be lower and slower. Yeah, and that will begin to change them. You know, uh AI can't do that. Yeah, they can't read the room and and and be like, this is what this person needs today compared to last week when they came in, yeah, and they were in a totally different space. So I I think that there's that judgment, hopefully, that you use clinically to see what is best. And and also Chat GPT is constantly feeding you information and not drawing information from you and asking what you think and giving you agency to be able to problem solve to do the work as Kirk talks about doing the work. And I think that's so important.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:24

Yeah, it can't it can't adapt, right? Whereas like you you shared, you can adapt to what is needed for the moment, and and AI doesn't, you know, currently at least have the abilities to do that.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, yeah, that's so true. We'll see what happens maybe next month. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

Yeah, probably like tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Tomorrow, it's crazy the advances. So Stanford just published an important paper called A Trans Diagnostic Model for How General Purpose AI chatbots can perpetuate OCD and anxiety disorder. Scientific studies have the most creative names. It's just really poetic that way. Um but uh these two Stanford authors uh found in their search in their uh research that chatbots can, quote, participate in compulsive checking loops, uh, end quote, and often uh and offer endless reassurance that keep people engaged in the loops. Um why if we can I don't know if you guys have experienced, maybe that's the the better question to start with. Have you guys ever experienced getting caught into a loop with with chat GPT? Have you ever found yourself kind of going in circles talking about the same thing?

SPEAKER_05 25:35

And not yet. Yeah, but I mean I don't I don't know if this podcast will tell me hopefully you know away from doing that.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Yeah, and and and I don't know if we're asking it the type of questions that would would feed that. Yeah, you know, a lot of times I've said I go to it for information, you know, like somebody's address or somebody's phone number, somebody's email, and I'm not looking for it to give me input on my mental health, yeah. So I haven't tried it.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Yeah, that's not, but um, yeah, that's interesting. Um I I haven't experienced it either. I've I've experienced loops where it just doesn't wasn't understanding the information that I wanted it to deliver, and so having to rephrase and like nope, that's not what I said, try this. And um, but I've never yeah, I've never really dug into it for with deeper questions or personal questions. So I think maybe we're just we're too healthy for that right now. We'll see. Yeah, for now for now today. Absolutely, and and Mark, I want to talk about this. So um my mother has always had hypochondria, uh, has been a hypochondriac her whole life. I remember as a little kid, one of the doctors, I was probably like 15 or 16, doctor turning to me and be like, she's fine. Convince her that she's fine because she's driving me crazy. Um, and that stuck with me for a long time. But um connecting it specifically to health anxiety. Um, how does hypochondria work? So, hypochondria, well, first I guess define it for the for the listeners.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Yeah, it it's that idea that we attach false meaning to different things that are going on in our body or around us, and so we hear somebody else struggling with their hand. Let's say Kirk tells me that his hand has been doing A, B, and C, and before I know it, because of my composition and my history, my hand is doing the same things, and then I'm attaching meaning to it. Yeah, and then again, like we said, going down the rabbit hole. Yeah, you know, and and so definitely with that is a lot of anxiety, and again, anxiety lessens perception. So, you know, it starts with the hand with Kirk, and then before I know it, it's creeped up my arm. Yeah, and then I'm getting more and more again, the body is reacting and becoming more and more tense, yeah, and then it's telling the brain horror stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I think that it's an anxiety disorder where a lot of times it's fueled by oh no, what if. Right. So it's not just that my hand is having problems like Kirk's, yeah, but then oh no, what if? Yeah, yeah, and then fill in the blank for the person.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Well, I mean, my mom's stuff was like when she got a migraine, it's a brain tumor, you know, it was these huge jumps to uh wherever. And and my dad started to my dad's got um kind of general anxiety, and as he's gotten older, it's become more and more acute. Um, and so he's struggling with a lot of the same things. So he's like, Oh, for anybody else, it's just uh heartburn, but for him, there's some sort of leak in his gut and there's acid, and then so he goes and gets checked out, and the doctors are like, No, no, no, it's okay. But he's like, No, no, no, it's it's gotta be something. Um, and so it's it's very easy to fall into that. And it's it's dangerous, right? Because if you're just curious and you're not taking any action, at least you're not causing damage. But some people do try to take action, they'll go and look for unproven methods of treating something, sure. They'll go and look on the internet or go talk to somebody they shouldn't be talking to who's not a doctor, and that person will tell them, hey, this worked for me, or this worked for my my cousin's nephew's college roommate, definitely is gonna work for you. And then you end up doing some serious harm to your body or your mental health.

SPEAKER_04 29:18

Yeah, I I think that um the medical field, good and bad, looks at patterns. Yeah. Yeah. And and so the brain just just automatically does that. Yeah, mix that with anxiety, and you come out with a mess. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Oh, that's so good. Combo. Yeah, yeah. I was I was thinking of it as like data plus interpretation. Can equal, I was gonna call it anxiety fuel, but I guess nightmare fuel is probably the better way of doing it. But yeah, you you get some real data, like my arm hurts or my my head hurts, or whatever, and then it's the interpretation.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

It's well well, have you ever you know been going through a day and feeling really great and everything's going good, and somebody comes up to you and goes, Oh, you don't look well. Oh, what happens? Huh. Yeah, automatically.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

You question. Yeah, you can't. I mean, I've I've had a lot of people tell me I don't look well just in general, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Yeah, no, you know, you you start to doubt your own perception of your well-being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:30

Yep. It's the influence of others at times, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah. Well, and then yeah, once that once that doubt is introduced and once you start to question, instead of resolution happening, or you take a quick scan and you're like, no, I actually I think I feel fine. Um, it actually escalates because and then you're like, if I feel fine, but that person thinks that I don't look fine, then my system is off. I'm not, yeah, you know, like my diagnostic system isn't working. Something's definitely and so it just escalates the anxiety to a whole new level, even though you're you live in your body, and so you're like, No, I'm I'm actually okay. I don't feel like anything's wrong.

SPEAKER_05 31:09

So basically the takeaway is unless someone's like lying on the ground like convulsing, let's not say to blue cut.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

You look terrible. Yeah. Let's be pretty accurate that that person is not in good shape. I think that's the takeaway, folks. I think that's the thing we need to go home with. I'm just joking. Um, and then I think part of it too is um just generally being aware as we go through all of these different discussions on um technology, is maybe relying on people more than we rely on machines for a lot of these things, right? Um, I think the healthier opinion or the healthier place to get opinions is from a medical doctor that's actually studied the human body and can observe, like you were saying, Kirk can diagnose, can and take some tests, can look at you versus a computer that has no idea what it's talking about, or even computers that can scan and do A B and C. Like George's first false positive wasn't actual uh it was data, it's just diagnostic data. They took his blood, they tested it, it came out. But then the subsequent tests found that it they'd made a mistake, which happens. Um and so maybe there's also that part of like, hey, live in community, be around people, talk to real human beings, and see if they are agreeing with the things that you're feeling inside. Because if it's a qualified professional and they're examining you, or like you said, Mark, second or third opinions, right? Maybe you need to go to two or three to be sure. But if everybody's coming up with, like, hey, there's there's just nothing there, maybe it's worth revisiting your own assessment of yourself.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

Yeah, doing doing a reality check.

SPEAKER_05 32:47

Yeah. And there's one thing AI can't relate to us in is being human. Yeah. Right. And actually understanding what it is to be human. And I think at least, you know, as imperfect as medical medical doctors are, at least they can come from that perspective of being a human. Yeah, yeah. You know, and like knowing the the the journey and the human experience in some regards, not the exact same, but at least like knowledgeable of what that feels like to be human, you know.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Yeah, I try to hang out with humans at as much as I can. Not me, man. No, they're terrible. So I've got I've got uh a um what is it called? A uh not an Enagram. I got some letters to throw at you, Mark. Uh ERP, exposure and response prevention. Um what is that? And how does that relate to what we're talking about?

SPEAKER_04 33:43

You know, if you have a fear of something, yeah, to begin to be exposed to it. You know, so if if somebody's afraid of roller coasters, first step is to watch somebody on a roller coaster or to watch a movie of roller coaster. Yeah, and then and then it progressively gets more and more so that you get desensitized. And for some people it works great, yeah. And for some people not so much, yeah, but you know, to simulate being on a roller coaster, right, right. And then to actually go on a roller coaster while you're safe and you're feeling safe. Yeah, and and so another one, let's say that somebody is attacked by a dog, but they like really want to be around dogs, you know. So little by little introducing them to pictures and then videos, and then introducing them to the real thing from a distance, right? And then to bring them closer and closer. Sometimes that can be helpful. Yeah, but again, like with mental health, not it's not one size fits all. Right. Yeah, you know. So we talk about in the trauma field, you know, some people do great with the MDR. Yeah, some people say it's like the worst experience they ever had. Okay, yeah, you know, some people say, Okay, well, then I'll do brain spotting. For some people it works, for some people it's not so good. Yeah, you know, somatic experiencing for some people it's good, for some people so it's not the one size fits all right with any of this. They're effective tools, but it depends on who's using it.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Yeah, it's good. Yeah, I mean, even medicine, right? Because human body chemistry is all different. Some meds, some people respond better to certain med than yeah, they do to others, yeah. And and I think what you're talking about is you're describing uh ERP too, is part of what you were saying earlier, learning to tolerate that um discomfort and I like what Kirk said to do it in a compassionate way, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:25

You know, not to just say, well, like you're not feeling well, but live with it. Yeah, right. But like even finding ways to be able to tolerate a little bit more of it, yeah. You know, through breathing, through tapping, through different activities, through grounding, you know, it's not just like okay, we'll go live with it. Yeah, but it's like how do you expose yourself to this gradually so it's not a shock to your system, yeah, but that you get used to it, yeah, you know, little by little. Right. And as long as you're not in danger, you know, taking it slowly, yeah, you know, they talk about harm reduction with things, and and I think that the field has a lot to say about it in that for some addictions, people can't step right out of it without it being a shock. Yeah, you know, if you're dealing with something lethal like heroin or fentanyl, well then they need to do that because the alternative is just too dangerous. But for other things, sometimes it's a it's a matter of cutting down a little bit of it at a time. And for some people, they find it much more effective because that idea of going totally sober, yeah, you know, from zero to a hundred, you know, it it's just too much for them. Yeah, and they fail over and over and over again, and then they get discouraged and they shame themselves and they become worse than their addiction.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

Yeah, that's that's the with withdrawal process.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, exactly. Uh just kind of to wrap up here, I think that because we're human, we always want to know. And curiosity's gotten in trouble with us or gotten us in trouble throughout history. I mean, it started in the garden, right? We wanted to know more, we want to find out what it is, but sometimes the healthiest answer isn't the one that we get, it's the one that we learn to live without. Um, sometimes we have to get comfortable knowing that we're just not gonna know. We're looking for the certainty. AI doesn't have it, the internet doesn't have it, people don't have it. I mean, even doctors can't tell you for sure. They can they can approximate uh certainty, but you know, the stuff is gonna get by now and then. Um, and that if we can't learn to live without absolute certainty, we're in trouble because the world is full of uncertainty. So if the thing that we need is just a hundred percent guaranteed certainty and things, it's just we're gonna struggle everywhere we go.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Right. And then we become um unhealthy with black and white thinking. Yeah, absolutely. You know, having to always have the answer instead of living in this liminal space where we don't know. Like the only thing we know is we don't know. Yeah, and a lot of times I've said that people will come to me for an answer, and that's the last thing that I provide. And and and so it can be frustrating. But even with anxiety, let me say that anxiety is good, it's not bad. When it becomes too much, then it's overwhelming. But sometimes you want people to feel anxious because it motivates them to change.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. If you didn't have any anxiety about paying your bills, you wouldn't get out of bed to go to work in the morning, right? So which would be catastrophic eventually. If you have too much, then you stay in there too.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

So just right.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

It's riding the wave, it's figuring out where to yeah, where to sit on that. Oh man, Kirk, Mark, as always, thank you so much. Thanks for your friendship. I love you guys to everybody that's listening. We really appreciate you. Thank you so much for joining us today. We love you, God loves you, God bless you, and we'll catch you next time.