NPD

Walter, Mark & Kirk discuss the world of Narcissism Personality Disorder. Hope this conversation is helpful and informative. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast. The podcast that exists as a resource and part of the Ministry of Commonplace Church, the Mental Health Ministry. If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit us at commonplacechurch.org.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Open to a good conversation. Hello and welcome to With All Your Mind. We're Dr. F. Rodriguez. Yeah, it's been a while.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Life gets busy, man. Life gets busy.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

It really has been kind of nuts. Um, but we're back. We've got uh Dr. Mark McNear here with us and Pastor Kirger Rubrecht. Uh today we're gonna be discussing a hit television series that aired from the late 80s to the early 90s. Now, this is a series that also made a comeback in um big screen form back in 2012 with a follow-up a few years later. The series originally was a drama, though, the original series, but it moved more into comedy with the movies. And the premise of the series, it it basically focused on a group of undercover police officers, and their assignment was to focus on criminal activity taking place in the high schools. Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Have you guessed what this series is, fellow millennials and excellence and all the other annials? I know what it is. You know what it is. Yeah, it's uh good old 21 Jump Street. Yes, yeah, that was uh down down jump street. That was the theme. I know 80s themes, I'm saying. Yeah, no, no, no. I love that. It's it's I feel like a lot of songs can take me back to a specific moment, but television themed songs, most of all.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, I can tell you exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

So uh this was Johnny Depp's big uh career takeoff moment, and um, and then in the newer movies in the 2010s, uh Channing Tatum and Jonah Hill were in those. Do you guys remember what they called these guys? The term that they used to describe these police officers at the schools?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Kirk Kirk's got a big smile. He knows yeah, narc. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yep. Yeah, they were uh narcs, which is short for narcotics agents. And of course, narcs aren't just sent into the school systems normally, but this group of narcs, they ran into different opportunities to bring about justice in the school system. So um the key to being successful as a narc was fitting in. Um, and in this case, you had to fit in as a high school student. It reminds me of the um, is it Steve Buscemi with the hello fellow kid alive? He's clearly 50 years old, and it's great. You got the backwards hat and the skateboard, and it's it's funny because I mean it started back in the 80s, but I think especially throughout the trunk the 2010s, you had these much older actors playing high school, they were like 24, 25, 26, and they're like, I'm 16. I remember 902 and oh is one of those. Yeah, all the people in the cats were like 40. And they're like, dude, you got a full beard, like, there's no way you're in high school. Is that a mortgage in your back pocket? Like, what are you doing here? But uh, well, if Johnny Depp had come to our high school, I am pretty sure that his 30-year-old self would have been noticed immediately. Um, but in the show, in the magic of television, uh, these guys did a pretty good job of playing the part of teenagers. So they had to adjust themselves to the environment that they encountered, and they did that, they adapted their surroundings. So that stirs up that regularly asked question on our podcast. How in the world does this tie into the mental health conversation? Um, that's a good question. Um adjusting to an environment is a reality when it comes to a mental health journeys, right? And one space where this adaptation, this adjustment is often found is uh not when dealing with a narc, but rather dealing with a narcissist. That that worked. That worked. We got there. It was a long journey. Um not bad. No, right? It took a stroll. It's not about the destination, right? It's about the journey. That's right. Yeah. So today we're kicking off a set of conversations where we're going to explore some of the different presentations of people that we encounter in our lives. And the uh we're gonna explore that space of neurodivergence, which is a term used to describe people whose brains function, learn, and process information differently than what is considered typical, or um, at times couldn't be referred to, this can be referred to as personality disorders. Um, the topic of conversation today is exploring what is a narcissist or NPD narcissist personality disorder. Um, I'm gonna throw it right over to you, Mark. Talk to us about this stuff. First of all, let's explore neurodivergency. Why are you throwing it to Mark?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

You feel like he's he's narcissistic.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Well, I mean, in the car he was saying, that's why. In the car he was saying, do you want to talk about me or should Kirk talk about me or should I talk about it? Kirk's gonna be talking about me.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

So actually, we were we were joking around, we were saying that the the conversation with a narcissist often is you know, Kirk, do you want to talk about me or do you want me to talk about me? Yeah, and if you want to start first, you talk about me. When you're done, I'll start talking about me. And then once I'm done, Walter, you can pick up. Sure, yeah, so so we talk about narcissism, and it's so misunderstood. This whole idea, you know, the whole TikTok and Instagram, which we've talked about, gives that idea. Thanks, Walter, for changing that mind. You know, it's all about you, Mark. It's all about you. It is dedicated to you. That idea that everyone now, if they cross somebody's path, they're a narcissist. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, oh, I can't believe it. My kid did this, they're such a narcissist. Or like, my husband didn't close, oh, he's such a narcissist, or my wife did this. She's you know, and so let's let's talk about the severity of narcissism. We're talking about this really in-depth uh issue with a person's personality in which people have been really impaired deeply. And we're gonna we're gonna talk about that, but that you know, so much so that it it almost becomes, and I don't agree totally with with the field of psychology with this, it doesn't become part of their personality, it's just so prevalent that it looks like it's part of their personality.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, there's almost like a rewiring that takes place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

And so I'm gonna ask you guys what causes it? What do you think causes it? And then I'll I'll talk about what the field has found recently compared to what they did say caused it.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

I I mean, I would say uh based on trauma mostly, right? Absolutely, yeah, yeah. There's been some neglect or rejection or deep war. Yeah, severe because not being noticed or being recognized, there's almost an overcompensation that takes place.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah, it absolutely, you're right on it. I think that in the past we've talked about the fact that you know people were born as narcissists and or uh borderline personality disorder, which I think we're gonna talk about some of those things, but you know, they're not born that way. It it's from environment and it's a huge impingement on the person where they've had extreme deprivation, extreme abuse, extreme neglect, and and what we're talking about there is complex trauma. They have just had a series of uh issues in their lives where they have gotten to the point where they say, you know what, nobody really loves me, and so I'm gonna have to take that job on myself, and I'm going to prove my validation by talking about myself all the time, putting myself first, thinking that I'm special, you know, thinking that people envy me. You know, that's some of the characteristics of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, I remember growing up, I used to think it was the opposite. I used to think they'd been so spoiled. People had been paying so much attention to them that they're they felt entitled to to have that behavior from everyone all the time. And it's only as I've gotten older and really started uh to dig into the mental health world that I realize it's the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah, people will say, Oh, a person's so arrogant, but the backdrop or behind the scenes, they feel so insignificant, they sit feel so insecure, so out of control that they need to control everything and they need to put forth this this persona that they're much better than real life would allow.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah. That's it, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah. I'm gonna read some of the uh definition here. So uh NPD, narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition characterized by a long-term pattern of grandiosity, an intense need for admiration, and a lack of empathy. People with NPD often exhibit entitlement, exploit others, and hold exaggerated beliefs about their own importance, despite often masking deep insecurity. I am reading this, and there are definitely famous people that are coming to mind. Elon Musk was the first name that popped into my mind as I'm reading this, right? And so um hopefully he doesn't listen to the show. I'm sure he this is. Well, he probably said his name. He's got yes. This is all he does in his spare time is listen to with all your mind. Um so are there things we're gonna be talking about all these um these different atypical, well, it's neurodivergence, right? Things that are atypical to whatever atypical mind is supposed to look like, um, whatever that means. But are there are these things when you're watching television, Mark, um, are there celebrities or people where you're like, oh, that's this, or that's probably that, or like like patterns you can recognize from afar, right? That it's so uh uh uh apparent.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, and I think I think that there's different types of narcissism too. There's like likable narcissists, and then there's people that are really like malignant narcissists who treat people really poorly and take advantage of people. Yeah, and so like if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist, right? It's not like everybody's the same, and that's one of the problems with the mental health field, is we we sometimes develop these cookie cutters where we look at everybody the same, but that's a great question, Walter. I think that a lot of really successful people are, or at least have, narcissistic tendencies, you know, and and so they're very, very driven, they're very responsive to other people in a lot of ways. Unfortunately, a lot of times they take advantage of other people. A lot of times you see that in politics.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah, I was gonna say you also see it in the church, yeah. You see some of the most like charismatic, yeah, like and they're likable, right? That's why they people are following. Yeah, Chuck DeGro wrote the book. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

When narcissists, yeah, when narcissists come to church, and so yeah, I I I think that we can't throw the baby out with the bath water. There's a lot of good characteristics with it, right? It's just that it goes so extreme and becomes problematic when people start taking advantage of other people, yeah. Right, yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's really, really good.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

So, do you guys personally have any experience? I mean, Mark, this is your job. I'm gonna go to Kirk with this one.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

I think confidentiality, I don't think he's allowed to share. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Well, if he could say yes or no that he's had an experience with it, but I'm gonna direct it at you. Kirk, do you have any experience with this type of personality in your life? Have you encountered people that have exhibited some of these characteristics? I definitely have.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Uh yes, I have. I've yes, there's been people in my uh family extended unit who have exhibited these behaviors. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

So I'm yes, for I've run into quite a few when when people uh I'll give you this as a a picture. There's when people come into counseling and when somebody usually spends the majority of time talking about one person, it's because the person has a personality disorder, they kind of fill the room. And so a lot of times narcissistic individuals, if it's pretty extreme, they never darken the door, but people who are around them end up coming in because of the harm that it causes. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:02

Yeah. I can see that. I mean, I'm just thinking in our friendship, um, I'm struggling with there's a a person related to a project at work and textbook. Um, in fact, I was speaking about um, I was speaking to a friend of mine about the difficulty in dealing with this person. She's like, all you have to do is constantly just tell him how great he is and praise him. And and I was like, I don't have time to do any of that. I just um and uh I I found the same thing, right? So this small, very small corner of my life, somebody that I that has no reason for me to ever be on my mind ends up taking so much space in the things that I have to do because managing of it becomes a major thing.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

That phrase that you use that takes up so much space, yeah. That's what people with personality disorders or or people that we would view, and I don't even like that like terminology, but you know, for the sake of being able to explain it, you know, these people that it's like part of the woodwork to a point, you know, with them some of these behaviors, you know, it takes up so much of our space because there's a lot of maintenance that goes on. And again, remember, it's not because they're so competent, yeah, it's because there are such deficits there.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah. It's overcompensation. Yeah, I love that word you use maintenance, right? That's what it feels like. It's like there's so much needed just to keep to make things work with that person around or that type of person around. Um and so I'm glad I'm glad we're gonna spend some weeks going into um all of these different types of of personality disorders or neurodivergences. Um, because I think it's important. I think we run across things all the time where we might not even understand what's going on. We just know like there's something different about this person and I I feel uncomfortable, I don't know how to wrap my head around them.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah, I think the goal too is is awareness more than like, hey, we want you to go out and diagnose people. Right, right, right. That's not what we were hoping to do. Yeah, like I told you mine, you know, this was he was an artist. Like, that's not the goal, it's more of just awareness. Um and how do we I don't like the word manage, but I don't know, how do we exist within?

SPEAKER_01 14:13

Yeah, you know, um well, how do we manage our own emotions? Well, that's I was gonna say it's not managing that's good managing, yeah. I think it's that idea that how do we realize that individuals at times, anyone, can be really triggering for us. We're not responsible for their behaviors, but we are responsible for our own reactions and our own responses, exactly. And so I think that that's a healthier discussion because there's like at times being around somebody who has some of these characteristics, it can be enraging. Yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

Yeah, that's I mean that's that's my therapy journey has been that it's like how learning not how I can control but how I can respond. Yeah. What's in with what's within my control. Yeah. That's been really helpful.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

And and I think it's it's important to realize that our job is to set limits and boundaries and to also realize that when people have had such extreme deprivation, when they've had such extreme harm, that they're not particularly good at accepting you know, boundaries and limits. And and let me say this for people, I want people to hear this. That idea that boundaries and limits is not one and done.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

It is continual. I had a therapist that once said to me, it's kind of like a skip on a record that you have to keep repeating this stuff over and over and over because they don't hear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah. Well, and tying back to that, because it that ties into my answer to this question. But what kind of feelings come up for you guys when you're dealing with someone who's a narcissist? I know you said enraging, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So I think I've my feelings have gr like grown with the more awareness I've had of circumstance, right? Where at first it was a lot of frustration, but I think a lot now is a little more compassion and like consideration of that person's of why they are you know acting in this this manner. Not that I'm in agreement or I'm like rooting for it, but just more discovery of that and seeing that and just trying to hold that, you know, place.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, that makes sense. So mine tie into this the boundary thing, right? Um exhaustion, just deep frustration and exhaustion. Um, because we I and find uh I find that I end up having to keep redrawing those boundary lines and going back like, hey, no, no, this is not okay. And after a while, it's just it just sucks all the energy out of me. So that's I'm with you on that too. That's that's part of it too.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

But yeah, often there's frustration because we have an expectation that somebody's gonna get something because it seems so clear to us, yeah. But they don't get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah, that's so true. Um, so what kind of actions do you take based on those feelings? Uh like I was talking about frustration, you were talking about rage. Um, empathy was Kirk's answer. So what what do we do when we're feeling that way around these people? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

Yeah, it's uh I think it's so dependent on the level of relationship that you have with that person. That's true. Right. If this is someone you live with or whatever, it's gonna be very different from someone you just see, maybe see at work and get to get to go home and not have to deal with it, you know. So um yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

That's a good question. You know, I I was talking with Tim Fletcher because he he does a lot of expert on narcissism. He has so many good things he talks about. One of the things he talks about that's a trap for people who are in relationships, uh closer relationships with someone who has personality disorders, especially narcissism, is the tendency to threaten them. You know, if you do that again, I'm going to, you know, fill in the blank. He says the worst thing you can do unless you're willing to fulfill the threat. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Empty threats is not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

No, it's it's just gonna continue to to uh perpetuate the cycle.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Well, because it from this particular disorder or or behavior, whatever you want to say, there there is almost a high threat level, and that's where the overcompensation comes in, right? Already. Yeah. It's like it's already like needing to be validated, needed to be recognized. And so there's already that threat that they have. So adding additional threats probably just you know creates a different another cycle of plus you if you're if you're gonna bluff, you get disarmed pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Like if you try to bluff and and you don't go through with it, and that's kind of the end of that's you've spent all of your ammunition, there's nothing else. Yeah. So now that you know they can continue to walk on you, walk all over you because nothing's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

So I I think that being aware that there's going to be certain emotions that come up. And I I love what Kirk talks about getting to the point where you can feel some compassion, and that's like that's a long journey. Yeah, and and and and wonderful because that takes a lot of ego strength to be able to be like, listen, this is their stuff and not allow it to merge with with you because they're very good at merging their ego with you, and kind of it's kind of like did you ever see the movie The Blob? Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like a narcissist, you know, in in a in a in a way, you know, symbolically, that they just suck the life out of people they're around because they don't feel good about themselves, and so they just envelop you and little by little take over your life if you allow it.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

It's a horror movie, folks. So uh let's take a little time and explore this space of narcissism. Uh, does anybody know when this particular personality disorder was classified?

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Anyone have any idea? Well, the Greek myth, yeah. Narcissist that that's where it comes from, where he looked into a pond and he fell ma he fell madly in love with himself. Yeah. And then couldn't think about anybody else but himself. And and I should say too, when you look, certain disorders are more prevalent with males and females, and this one is one for males. You know, so if you're going back to the Greek myth, that's that's where where it points. It also was it was toyed around with different psychologists and different doctors in the 1800s that talked about this you know propensity that people had to just think about themselves to to look for special. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah, the the vanity piece, right? Yeah, it's it's I mean the Bible talks a lot about that, but you know, not it's the unhealthy love of self, right? It's not that there shouldn't be a appreciation and love of of creation image bearing, but it's the unhealthy version of it that I think so it's been around for a long time, I guess if the Bible speaks into it, but yeah, um, but officially diagnosed, I have no idea. Mark would probably know. Mark was actually right.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

So the 1800s is when it was really first talked about um as something different and very uh varying from the normal, and 1980 is when it was first put into the third edition of the DSM. Yeah. So the 1980, a year before I was born. So narcissists are older than I am.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

And and one of the one of the things one of the things, yeah, years later. But but one of the things that the American Psychiatric Association did, and and early training for me, I definitely learned this and I don't think it's accurate, is that People can't change who have personality disorders. And I've seen that proven wrong time and time and time again. I think that the approaches were wrong. And so psychology said, well, this just isn't working. So they must not be able to be changed. Yeah. And that's not accurate. You know, we we see that borderline personality disorder, which I'd love to dive into in another week. Yeah, yeah. You know, that that idea that uh somebody with borderline, you know, just couldn't be couldn't change. That's not true what they have found. Marsha Lenahan uh came up with Dr. Marsha Lenahan had it. And so she came up with this whole program, genius, came up with this whole program, DBT, and and found a way of like kind of merging a lot of this, you know, black and white thinking, things like that. And we'll talk about that. But that idea, I just want to say that people can't change is is just not accurate and not scriptural. Yeah, I agree. But it doesn't mean that it's easy. Yes, that's a good catalyst.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so let's talk about that, right? So BPD can be managed uh or or changed. Uh, how do you manage narcissism? Can you treat it? What what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Well, I think for narcissism, and I was talking to Tim about this, that idea that that people have to paint themselves into a corner with their behaviors and get to the point where they're so desperate that they're willing to do pretty much anything. And I think that I think that's a good picture of all of us. Yeah, you know, we don't we're not real willing and gung ho to change behaviors until you know it kind of hurts. Yeah. And so when that comes about, when there is some harm to the ego, people are more willing or amenable to change.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Yeah. I wonder though, if it in those moments, if they're met with compassion and kindness, if that really brings a a bigger healing, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Than if they're met with I don't know, content or just like Yeah, and I and I think that we've talked about this, Kirk, that idea of recovery for people who have addictions. You know, there's been a harshness within the community, and and that's the last thing that people with uh behaviors of addiction need.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

They need yeah, because think about it, if it's shame, that that's at the core, right? And they're receiving shame after they've come to this discovery. Is that the is that the antidote? You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Absolutely not. I think that people need kindness, they need gentleness. Uh I think that for the narcissist, they need to have very clear boundaries and limits. Yeah. Sense of security too, maybe? Absolutely. Yeah, all of the things. If you can replicate what they didn't have in childhood, there's a hope that there's gonna be some movement toward change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Right. So if we have these type of people in our lives, we have narcissists in our lives, what are some and and again, I think kind of boiling down what you were saying is people everyone needs to come to the place where they they're ready to change. Um, they're willing to do what it takes to change. Um, so if that person in your life isn't there yet, how do we interact with them? How do we manage, maybe we can't manage them, how do we manage ourselves? What are some some strategies that we can employ to protect ourselves?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

And well, I think I think that one of the things we have to do is we have to regulate ourselves emotionally because we'll go on a roller coaster otherwise. I think also that there's there's what I have seen is in families, there's usually a narcissist and then a co-narcissist. There is the husband who has a lot of shame, but then there's the wife who has a lot of shame. So she allows a lot of the things to go on and and doesn't feel good enough within herself to be like, no, no, no, I can't do this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah. Yeah. What's this? So I remember from therapy the idea of gray rock. Is it gray rocking? Or gray rock?

SPEAKER_01 26:04

What is I can't remember which is exactly no no no gray rocking, yeah. You're absolutely right. That whole idea of being able to stay neutral in in very explosive, emotionally explosive situations. Um, a lot of times narcissists count on people feeding off of their outrageous statements. Right. They make narcissists make outrageous statements. Yeah, sure. And they just wait for the reaction. If they're not getting the reaction, yeah, it dissipates after a while. Yeah. So that's great rocking.

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Yeah. I was picturing the Rolling Stones, just dudes all in gray, gray hair, rocking hands, those guys are currently good rocking hands for sure. Okay. Just learn something new. It's not a rock term, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for coming to with all your minds. Glad we can help. So I was talking about if you live some with someone that has narcissism where you're around them, you're related to them. Um, but what about if it's the other way around? What if you find yourself exhibiting some of these characteristics of narcissism? Where do you go for help? How do you ask for help? What is it that you're asking for? Such a good question.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

That's a really loaded question. Because how do you know if I don't I don't know. I'm just sorry. I'm just pressed.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Let's let's say this. I think that for all of us, we've all had deprivation, we've all had abuse, we've all had harm. So, what happens if we put narcissism on a continuum and we say that we all have a tendency toward it? Yeah, some very some in very minor ways, some in very extreme ways. Yeah. So I I I think that you know, scripture gives, of course, the the antidote, you know, to love yourself, to love your neighbor and to love God. You know, and and and so there's a lot of people within Christianom that shy away from that idea of self-love because it's like, oh no, no, no, you'll be self-centered. It's gonna cause pride. Yeah, yeah, and and pride causes narcissism. So if somebody thinks they they have some issues with narcissism, why not, you know, talk to somebody about it? Ask them, you know, do you see those characteristics in me? Find somebody safe to talk to, yeah, and maybe even a counselor.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yeah. And this is something I've we've talked to the teens about um in uh youth group here, but um, is attention seeking strictly a negative thing? And we've we've had long discussions on this with them uh to kind of see where their heads at and maybe point out some things. But what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Oh Kirk Kirk Thompson, Dr. Kirk Thompson talks about the fact that an individual, when born, comes out of the womb looking for people to look for them. So I don't think there's anything wrong with attention. Again, we're talking about extremes. Right, right. You know, if somebody gets up in the morning and their number one goal is how much attention can I get for myself today? Yeah, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

Yeah, yeah, because I think attention is based on the design of connection. And if we're designed to be connected to one another and we're not connected or not receiving that, then I don't think seeking the attention is a negative. Right. Like Mark said, the level of it could be the challenge.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

The other thing we're talking about developmental phases, sure. You know, the the two-year-old is pretty self-absorbed and wants attention. Right. And I think it's developmentally correct. Right. And if they don't get that attention, then narcissism begins to grow. Right. For a teen, teens are much like two-year-olds. Yes, so it's it's okay for them to want to explore and to get attention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Well, and it's yeah, it's like part of the human experience of like meaning and like what is my purpose? What is my meaning like when you're not given necessarily be given that you're gonna seek that out in different ways and could be unhealthy, could be healthy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

I think it's Genesis that says that he's a God who sees. Sure. And who is he seeing? He's seeing us, and he knows that that's really important for us to be seen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

I was actually just gonna say that one of the one of my favorite things about language in newer generations is that a few years ago, quite probably a decade now, but that I that language started to shift to that. Like I feel seen, I want to be seen, and it really is apt-wording to describe what it is that you're looking for. You want somebody to acknowledge you, to to know that you exist, to value your worth. Um and not only so they can see it, but so that you feel that. Um, and so yeah, I think it's it's a a basic human need. I think so often we malign it.

SPEAKER_01 30:53

Yeah, and I and I think the difficulty in conversations like this is we want a formula. And, you know, like I said earlier, if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist. And so I think everybody, there's there's patterns and there's things to look at, but there needs to be an individualized plan for each marriage. If there, if there's a situation where somebody feels like their husband is, let's say, a narcissist, and then there needs to be, you know, an evaluation of that particular situation and not just one size fits all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah, I think I think the the result of the fall created insecurity and stability, right? So I think the human condition now exists with a desire for security, and that's even why we have like secure attachment and things like that at the developmental stage. So I think that is part of the longing that we have as humans is like, is this secure? Am I secure? Is this relationship secure? Is this, you know, will I be rejected? I think that's just this continuum that we think we, you know, I have it. I've I've you know, I I still have insecurities that I'm when I get to a situation, is this safe? Is this secure?

SPEAKER_01 32:03

You know, yeah, you know, that that idea that you text someone and they don't text you back, and then you say, is everything all right? And you don't hear from them, and you know where your mind goes. It goes to 14,000, at least mine does. Yep to like, what did I do wrong? Yeah, you know, so you're absolutely right. That that idea of insecurity is born in us from the fall.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Yeah. And I want to go through um, we've got a list here of some of these characteristics, so that just feeling confident or um even occasionally being a little selfish and being like, hey, I need to focus on me this week or this, you know, today because I'm having a rough day or whatever, doesn't equal narcissism. Right. So I'm gonna read through some of these characteristics. And if if there are many of these seen in the person, or if the stuff that like this is repeated constantly, then there's a much higher chance that that might be it.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

That's really good. You know, that idea of the prevalence, yeah, you know, uh uh how often you see it and how extreme it is, is how you look at a particular issue to see if it is a real problem or not.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Right, right. So I've got a grandiose sense of self-importance, like I'm the exception to the rule, um, a deep need for admiration and validation, a lack of empathy, difficulty truly seeing or valuing others' feelings, a tendency to exploit relationships for personal gain, fragile self-esteem underneath it all. So criticism hits hard even if it doesn't seem like it does on the surface, entitlement, expecting special treatment without necessarily reciprocating, and uh one of the biggest tensions on the outside, all of this can look like confidence, but underneath it's actually insecurity that's driving the behavior. So even if it seems like this person is moving through the world full of confidence and not needing all of this stuff, um, that's really what's driving it. The driver's the opposite.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

It makes me think of the Wizard of Oz, you know, where he is sitting there and you see the wizard, yeah, and you see this you and then you hear, you know, him say to them, you know, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Yeah. I think that looks a lot like narcissism. There's this big grandiose show put on, but then behind the scenes is this insecure person that's like, pay no attention to me.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

That's not me.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Yep. This show when you peel back the layers of the onion, you see that.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Yeah, yeah. This is actually really good. I think what you were saying, Kirk, uh, the idea of being able to understand and recognize and be aware of um these things, I think that's really the goal with us going into this series. Um, because I think everybody's got questions. I think um, what do they call it? Uh mental health TikTok um is uh a lot of people are saying a lot of things. Most of it is inaccurate. There's a lot of people throwing the word narcissist and narcissism around, like you mentioned, Mark, who have no idea what it means. Um, and there are probably people out there that are afraid that they might be something because somebody once called them a narcissist, so they might be freaking out and trying to read about it. And um, you know, if you are worried about it, please see somebody. You know, if this is something, if if what I was reading, that list of things keeps coming up and and you're hearing from other people that this might be, then there is help, there's hope, it's not like the end of the world for you. Um, and on the other hand, if you're if that reminds you of somebody that you are of that list of things, somebody that you're struggling with, somebody that you're having a hard time with, um, maybe dig into it a little more um and try to look at ways that you can try to manage the situation, manage your own um feelings around that person.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Like we said, talk about boundaries and yeah, and sometimes people need support and they need some insight and how to deal with that. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

Yeah, and one of the things that's really important to keep in mind here is a lot of times we fall into, and this is a common trap with all kinds of um uh mental disorders when you're around somebody that's that's got a personality disorder and it's tough. People say, if I just adjust enough, if I try harder, maybe I can make this relationship work, if I just if I can do better, if I I would were more for this person. And that is a really dangerous place to be. Um, because so it it sometimes isn't about you. It doesn't matter what you do, there's something going on outside of yourself and you can only control so much of that.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah, and often they talk about it being a chasm, you know, there's just this deep chasm. Yeah, and then no matter what you do, there's not enough to fill that chasm.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, that's where codependency challenges come in.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

And we're gonna be diving deeper and deeper into this stuff in the the coming week. So just thanks so much. Thank you for joining us. Um, we've got a whole bunch of other things that are difficult to talk and start and deal with. So if you're into it, if you want to dig into some of these things that aren't really explored or explained as much, um, please just keep tuning in. We'd love to have you if you have if you have questions or any ideas for episodes too. We'd love to hear it. Kirk and Mark, as always, thank you so much for your friendship, for your love, for being here. Um, thanks to everybody that's listening. We appreciate you. So thank you for joining us. We love you, God loves you, God bless you, and we will catch you next time.