Confidence Through Evidence: Sibu Khupe on Creative Risk, Strategy & Career Growth

Confidence isn’t a mindset — it’s evidence you belong in the room you want to be in.

In this episode of She’s Lost Control, we sit down with Sibusisiwe Thelma Khupe — director, creative strategist, and former founder of her own production company — to unpack how she built a fearless career in music, advertising, and brand storytelling.

By 25, Sibu had directed MTV-recognized music videos, worked with major labels and agencies, and collaborated with artists like Lewis Capaldi, Bree Runway, and Tom Jones, all while leading culture-defining campaigns and championing diversity and inclusion.

We chat:
 ⚡ How to build unshakeable confidence through evidence and audacity
⚡ The power of creating your own work before getting permission
⚡ Strategies to navigate rejection and position yourself as a top creative
⚡ Insights on storytelling, brand campaigns, and creative strategy
⚡ Practical advice on negotiation, client management, and self-advocacy

This episode is a blueprint for young creatives, freelancers, and aspiring agency leaders looking to turn ambition into action, prove their value, and step boldly into rooms they deserve to be in.

💌 Join #TheChaosClub for career tips & and unfiltered pep talks → www.instagram.com/sheslostcontrolpodcast/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

You're listening to She's Lost Control. Today on the podcast, we're joined by Super Sisue Thamakoupe, a visionary director, creative strategist and former founder of her own production company. From directing MTV recognized music videos to breaking into top agencies like Whedon and Kennedy without any traditional experience, Sibu's journey is a masterclass in backing yourself and creating opportunities before anyone gives you permission. Well that's it. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I want to go right back to the start before we get into kind of where you are now. Did you always know that you wanted to have a creative career? Were you destined to be like a vet, a freaking math teacher? Like, where did it all start?

SPEAKER_00 0:41

So my earliest career choice memories were in primary school and a little bit in high school. And I was so adamant that I wanted to be a lawyer. But now looking back, I know for sure that was not a decision that I made. I think that was like a societal decision. So I was like, okay, I'm firstborn of an immigrant African home. My choice is either to be a lawyer or a doctor. So I went with lawyer. Um I was meant to be a diplomat. Period.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Better doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Like, thank God you didn't end up there. I think as I got older and as my frontal frontal lobe started its early stages of development, I was like, this is not for me. I do actually want to pursue something creative. And I think it was when I was when I was 17 actually, I started doing a bunch of creative stuff. Like I started a YouTube channel that, you know, never saw the light of day. But I think I was doing little pockets of creative things that indicated that, okay, I know that whatever I do is not gonna be a STEM career or a very traditional career. And then it was when I was in my first year of uni where I just launched myself into a bunch of extracurricular activities, and it was really clear to me, okay, I'm gonna be in a creative career. And it's kind of weird because there was no one that I saw who was going in the direction that I was going, even though I didn't know what direction I was going in. I just knew that I wanted to do something that was creative. So I was writing, I had a blog, like I was talking to lots of artists, musicians, just trying to figure out what I could do that wasn't gonna be just me in a dead-end office job that I hated. So yeah, I think I would say from 18, which is quite early on, I was like, yeah, no, I know what I want and I know what I don't want.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

And what is it do you think that made you so like astute to listening to yourself? Because I think a lot of us were quite guilty of like, oh, like, for example, I wanted to study art, like that was what I wanted to do. I literally just wanted to draw like what you can see in my background. I live in a gallery, like every wall in my house is covered, but I talked myself out of it. What do you think it was in you that made you go, do you know what? Fuck it. Let me start to explore and see what kind of thing I could do that's a creative career.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Do you know what it is? I think I have always seen the world. I feel like my perspective of the universe and just the world and what's out there for me has always been a little bit different to most of the people around me anyway. I think for as early as I can remember, I've always seen the universe and the possibilities as big and as endless. So even though there were outside factors contributing to maybe what I thought I wanted to do, I always knew in my heart of hearts that I was different. And in order for me to find out why I was different or what that was going to lead to, I had to do the daring and uncomfortable thing, which is just trying a bunch of stuff. And that's how I knew, like in my heart of hearts, okay, because you know, like I think everyone that is destined to be great has that kind of gut feeling where they're like, okay, this is there's something on the horizon for me that could be really, really big. I just need to figure out what it is. Because at 18, I had no clue. I didn't, I didn't even know what a record label was to be completely honest. But I knew that I had to keep on trying at things in order to get to that. And I've always been that kind of person. I know that the universe is big, I know that my opportunities are endless. It's just to get there, to fulfill that, I need to just launch myself into things. And so just having that loyalty within myself and being like, okay, everything in this universe is big and you are bigger. I've always thought I was above the program, I can't lie. So it's just been a case of me making sure that I pursue things in order to find what that answer is. And I've just been really consistent in that.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

You remind me, one of my best friends, she's always had, and you have a very similar energy of you know, nothing is beyond my limits. But like she always you say to me, something great is destined in my future. What that something great is, I don't know. And obviously, she's done similar to you, like, you know, pivoting to figure out what is that you know, North Star will be. I guess, you know, how did you channel that into finding all of those little odd jobs and all those little like creative projects that you were involved in?

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Yeah, so I will say it kind of links back to what I was saying before, and that because I've always seen the world as really big, I think I've always owed it to myself to try and also to be audacious. And I've always been audacious. If you ask anyone that's ever worked with me or even knows me, I will do the thing that people are scared to do. So in order for me to get these opportunities, I would genuinely, I remember, I think it was like my towards the end of first year uni, I was like, okay, I want to work in music. I need to find who the most successful people in music are, and I'm gonna send them a DM. And I would, and there were like these really big I remember I sent an email to Loyal, I can't remember his full name, this is embarrassing. Loyal something something. He's like the head guy of YouTube. I went and looked for his email like, and then I just cold emailed him. Obviously, I didn't get a reply back that I was that kind of person. I was like, okay, who's doing really, really well? I'm gonna message them and figure out how to do it. And that's also how I accumulated my mentors across the years. Like I would just see, especially women who were doing really great things in music at a time when I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I wasn't sure if it was PR or AR or creative or marketing, but I looked for who wasn't the best at it. And then I just followed their journeys. I reached out out to them, I offered them free work, and then I went through a lot of stalking. I think in order to be a master, you have to be a student. So I stalked their journeys. I went on intense rabbit holes trying to find out, okay, what did they do at uni? What did they do here? What did they do here? And there were quite a few roadblocks every now and then when I realized, okay, some things I just don't have access to. So I asked myself, what can I do in order to break that barrier down and create my own access? And I talk about this all the time. It's this framework of having audacity, but also having the evidence to back it up. So I was audacious enough to reach out for opportunities, but I was also at the same time trying to build my own ways around things. So, for example, I really, really wanted to be a music publicist. I messaged one of the most successful, in my opinion. Her name is Jennifer. She's a public PR person at Atlantic Records. And I was like, okay, Jennifer's doing this, this, and this. I probably wouldn't be able to get a senior music PR job right now because I'm 18 and I have no experience. But Jennifer does this and she sends the emails like this. Let me try and figure out how I can utilize that and make that into something I can do. So I just started, like, I had on my CV junior publicist because I went out, I looked for artists, and I was like, I'm gonna learn how to make a press kit, I'm gonna learn how to write an artist bio. So I was just accumulating all of this experience on my own across different facets, just by studying the people who I looked up to who were already successful, but also by making sure that I was bridging the gap between sort of access and experience and where I wanted to be. Everything that I've said, like I'm someone who I pride myself in the fact that anything I said I have wanted to do, there is evidence that I've done it or at least tried. So I I don't I wanted to start a production company, I tried it, I wanted to film these videos, I've tried it, I wanted to be a music publicist, I've tried everything that I've said I want to do. I will look for ways to get in and create that experience myself. So that's been the thing that sort of helped me get through the door, but also the audacity of just messaging people. I love mess cold messaging people. Oh my god. I don't care who you are, Beyonce. If if I had Beyonce's email, she would have had an email from me by now. She would have had an email. She would have had an email by now. Never, never been scared to DM someone.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Like I said, I think I'm bigger than the program because I know that there's big things destined for me. So I've never been scared to put myself out there.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

I love I love everything say also you have such like a beautiful like storytelling nature, which is obviously part of the reason why your career's been successful. But it's um, it's I think it's such a powerful tool. And I've probably said it a million times on this podcast, also probability, if I email a hundred people, one of those poor sods is bound to come back to me. And then it's like, right, okay, let's just assume one out of a hundred come back. All right, well, if I send 200, then two are bound to come back. Do you know what I mean? And it's like us even sitting together on this interview, shout out Adela, because obviously Adela has seen your career and she sent it to me. Um, this came off the back of a random cold DM on LinkedIn. And I just think, like, worst case scenario, I'll be back at square one. So either way, it's like no harm, no foul. Like if you blank me, like I can't say how many DMs emails I've sent and got completely blanked. And I'm still that wanker that's like, oh yeah. So just wondering, uh see, you may have missed this, even though I know that you've seen it because LinkedIn's fixed on you. But just in case you haven't, it's put myself to the top of your inbox again. You never know what might come in. You never know. Someone might have just opened it by accident and just instructed.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Honestly, I'm actually someone who until I see or physically receive a no, you're gonna keep hearing from me. You are losing unless, like, even if you see the message and ignore, I want to know if that's a yes or or no. Tell me no so that I know it's an absolute no. But until I hear that, I'm gonna be in your emails forever.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

I want to go into those early roles. Can you kind of paint the picture of some of those freelance projects and you know how those projects then materialize to freelance and then how you transitioned into agencies, brand, work?

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, for sure. So I would say like my first biggest break, I guess, was um when I got a job at Universal Music. But to get to that, I was I was the gutter. Like I went and I messaged every single like UK musician who I had some kind of access to. So I had friends that were making music, um, especially like in the sort of rap space and like the UK underground rap space. I was just DMing a bunch of rappers and I was like, you don't have a press kit, let me do it. You don't have marketing, let me do it. And I was doing it for free because I knew universal music is the big leagues. Like, I can't come in as some little girl. I need to, I need to, you know, put my money where my mouth is. So I would literally just be DMing these artists and one of them, um, his name's Pablo Mari. I we had a but we had a ball, but he had a single that was coming out, and he was like, Yeah, I want to work on some some really cool marketing ideas. I made my first deck, like I came up with a bunch of ideas, and the song was just like all great songs, it was about sex. And so we made these little condom care packages that um, yeah. So we we had like custom condoms and like and like custom lube because the song was all about like you know, making making a girl feel right, and like we like designed the box and everything, and I was like, this is terrible, this is the worst thing I've ever made, but it was evidence that I could actually do it, and I just kept on repeating that formula. I was like, like I can reach out to someone, I can offer to do work, I can make it, and then I just accumulated a bunch of things. Same with with writing too. I started writing, I started my own blog, um, which has disappeared. I couldn't even tell you what the domain is now, but I just started writing music articles, started writing stuff on LinkedIn. So then by the time I got to Universal, I was able to scan in myself and say, I am a music journalist because look at all these articles I've written. I am a music marketer because look at all these campaigns that I've done. So I just I put myself out there, I accumulated all this experience. Um, and then you know, it it's a tail is old as time where when you do stuff, when you increase your surface area for look and opportunity, people will reach out. And eventually this guy called Derek, who's the founder and creative director of New Wave magazine, reached out to me. He was like, I love your work, come come write for us. That was a huge breakthrough because within two weeks, I'd interviewed K-Trapp and I'd never interviewed like an artist at that stage and he was like, I see potential in you. And even that, I think having people who saw potential in me was a huge game changer. But the only way they were able to see that potential was because I did the work of putting myself out there. So yeah, by the time I got my first job at Universal, I'd already I had a huge, healthy CV that a lot of people my age at the time just didn't have. So yeah, yeah, that was the first big breakthrough, and that was where I got my first opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

I appreciate, you know, you said that it's it's naturally in you to be that go-getter to to push yourself and like you say, put yourself out there to optimize opportunity. But what advice could you give for anyone who is struggling with that or for anyone who, you know, maybe finds it a little bit challenging to hi, nice to meet you. My name's blah blah. This is what I'm trying to do. What can you do, or how can you help me? What advice could you give?

SPEAKER_00 12:52

I think it is actually making the work. So the only reason, so my confidence, it partially comes from the fact that I know who I am, I know what I want out of this world. But also, confidence is simply a stack of evidence that you are who you say you are. So if you're struggling with confidence and struggling to reach out to people, the best way, in my opinion, to ease that is by having the evidence that when you're coming to people, it's not just empty-handed dreams and aspirations. You're coming to people and saying, look, I've done this and I've tried, and this is evidence that I can do it. And that's what's helped me a lot. I will never, in as much as I love the audaciousness in messaging and reaching out to people, I'll never do it unless I have something to put to my name. So even if that work isn't the most polished or the best, I can at least say, hey, I've done this and it worked out this way. Or just having that evidence is what helps to build your confidence. Because a lot of people just have the dreams and aspirations, but they don't have the work to prove that they can get there. Even if it's your first project, even if it's not great, a lot of the worst work I've ever done in the earliest stages of my career got me really, really big opportunities because I had the confidence to be able to say, I can do it because look, I've done it before. I just need a bit of time to get better and to learn. But this is evidence that I'm not going to waste your time because I am, you know, I'm I'm on what I'm trying to be on. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, I think if your anxiety is coming from a lack of confidence, I think the best way to ease that confidence is by making stuff and having something to your name because that work no one can ever take away from you.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

True, very true. And so once you've had your home at Universal, if I'm not wrong, you then went on to home is where the art is full-time for a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

That was my production company that I launched, and it's like my little baby I'm the most proud of.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

That was And what was that experience like going out on your own?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Do you know what? It was absolute hell, but it was also the best thing that's ever happened to me. Both of those things are true. I think I went through a lot because I had really big dreams and ambitions as to what I wanted to build it into, but I didn't quite have enough experience yet. I think now, if I was to go back and do it, it would look completely different. But I took my lashings, I took my beatings, like I learned what I needed to learn in the hardest way, which I think has set me up for success now because I learned really hard lessons about creativity, about ownerships, about contracts, about production, about working with creatives. A lot of the core lessons that I have that I take into these big agencies and companies now came from that experience, even down to leadership. Like now I'm doing senior, senior co-create positions, um, associate creative director positions. And that's because I had established my own leadership experience by creating a team and overseeing the team and overseeing these projects. And it was hard work. It was really, really hard. Deciding to start something on your own is really, really hard. But it was It's not as flexy as everything. It's not, it's not sexy. Like I was crying myself to sleep many nights, but also the wins like I think people, it's just a classic tale. People saw the wins, but they didn't see the losses. Like I lost a lot, I fought a lot, it was really, really difficult. I was literally just a little girl just trying to build something big. But you know, I got really big things out of it. The first ever music video that I directed and produced was picked up by MTV, which is something I did not expect to happen so quickly, but it happened. But if I tell you the nightmare that even got to making that video, it was just it was hell.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

But genuinely, I think it's a trilogy that you could write.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Literally, like it was god. I I took my beatings, but honestly, I think in order to be the best, you have you have to take your beatings at some point.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

And I and I have to go through the trenches, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

It was the trenches, it really was horrible. But I don't say that to sort of discourage anyone from doing it. I am able to talk about how terrible it was because I know what the lessons were that came from that hill. And I think had I not been through that, I would not be the creative that I am today. No way, no way, no way.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

Totally. And and I guess one of the things that I always see people send in as questions that are, how do you actually go about getting your own clients, especially, you know, having not done it before, what was that process like for you? And I guess how did you how did you figure it out?

SPEAKER_00 17:14

So I think I was a little bit at an advantage because obviously I just come from working at Universal Music, so I had that stamp of approval on my CV and on my name. So I was able to go to people and be like, hey, I used to work in Creative at Universal. But even though that is an advantage, remember it's an advantage that I accumulated myself. So everything compounds eventually. So because I put in the work to get universal music on my CV, I was then able to have a bit of a leg up when approaching people and be like, yeah, um, I worked really closely with the video commissioner at EMI Records, so I know a thing or two. And I did because I was on major, like very, very big budget music video sets all the time. So I really didn't know the ins and outs. So when I was approaching people and cold messaging people, I wasn't just, you know, someone who has no idea what they're doing and they're starting from scratch. I had that evidence that I'd accumulated. I had things on my CD and my portfolio that I could say, yeah, like I worked with this with this person. I was on set doing this, this, and this. I know what I'm doing. But it goes back to what I was saying about I was just extremely audacious with reaching out to people. So the very first artist that I worked with, I literally looked for her manager, I reached out to the manager, I was like, hey, I really want to shoot a video for this artist. This is who I am. And they were like, Do you know what? Yeah, yeah, we we trust you. To this day, I it still amazes me that he said yes so quickly and instantly and gave me the money, he gave me the budget, like nothing. He went, There, go make the video.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Like, I already had prepared like responses for if you said no, I didn't have anything prepared for if you said yes. So it's just like, okay, and then you also feel like a dickhead because you're like that this is not the attitude that I should have, like preparing myself for the no. But it's just like being a creative, I feel like you just have to prepare yourself for them to be like, fuck off, I'm not gonna do that with you now. Why would I just pick you? And then if it's a yes, you're like, Hey, it's a cherry or the cake, like bonus. Let me know what's and think about what I want to actually say to you now.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Exactly, exactly. I was so ready for him to be like, absolutely not, and so I I prepared a response. So when he said yeah, and when the following week he deposited the money, the budget into the account, I was like, Oh, this is serious, he trusts me. No, I didn't work, but yeah, that was a great experience.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

How did you transition from that into agencies? Because I think usually people will go the opposite way and they'll start in agency and then go off and then go into in-house. So, how was that experience for you?

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Um so transitioning into agency has been uh so important for my career in ways. I I think I am extremely fortunate in that I went to the agency of all agencies, Wyden Kennedy. They are the anyone that wants to work in advertising, anyone that's aspiring to work in advertising, Wyden Kennedy is the school of creative thought. So even being uh given the opportunity to work there was just amazing and has done so many things for my career. But the transition was uh it was quite non-traditional. So the agency at the time, they wanted to open a uh social first studio, so it was traditional advertising but through the lens of social. And they were the guy who founded it, his name is JP Joseph Pattson, he's based in New York, and his mantra, his uh philosophy around it was to look for people who did not come from a traditional advertising background because they're the people who were able to give a fresh perspective and make good work, but they still had to have something under their belt. So I wasn't just like someone coming on from nothing. Like I'd obviously built up a good season, but I I didn't know much about advertising or what these agencies were until maybe like a couple weeks before I applied. But I had a conversation with my friend, and one thing about me is if I if there's something that I want to pursue, it has to be the best of the best. So my my friend's like, oh, this is how how advertising works, and da-da-da. And I'm like, okay, now I have to find the best of the best. So I looked for the best of the best. It was Wyden Kennedy, a couple of other agencies, and I was like, okay, I don't have traditional ad agency experience, especially for an agency like Wyden Kennedy, where they do really, they genuinely pick the best of the best. And I was a bit like, oh my god, how am I gonna get there? But one thing about me, like I said, I'm very audacious and I will find a way to get there. And again, I built up my stack of evidence over time just through going out there pursuing things. So I sent them a crazy email. And I think the full stories on LinkedIn, it's hard to tell the full story without the visuals, but I sent them an email being like, Hey, you guys should hire me. And the subject was free Gary Barlow tickets. So I sent it to everyone in the agency. I sent an email. To everyone in the agency that was titled Free Gary Barlow Tickets. Obviously, they clicked it, and it was just a funny anecdote about me being like, Hey, so I come from music, I've done all these amazing things. Uh, now I want to work in appetizing, and this is why you guys need me. There wasn't an open job posting or anything. I literally just did it because I wanted to work there. And then within days, someone from HR, they emailed back and they were like, I need to talk to you. And I was like, chat, chat to me then, Rod. Um, you know, Rod sit down and he was like, Everyone's obsessed with your email. And I was like, as they should be. And then the following week, I then had an interview with two senior creatives, and then the following week, uh creative director slash header of social, and they were like, We want to hire you. And that all happened within the space of two weeks. Me who had zero advertising background, zero advertising experience, to go from that to working at the school of thought, where and I remember just even telling the other people, I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm starting at Wyden Kennedy. They'll be like, What? Like, how? And I was like, Yeah, yeah, like because I am I'm bigger than the program. What did I tell you guys? But genuinely, I think I've just consistently known again that I can do these big things and I can that there is a seat for me in these spaces. I just need to do the work of proving myself. And I think the arrival, the the moment of arrival where I was sending that email, everything that I had done before had had compounded. So all the times I reached out to people, all the work that I'd done, everything genuinely all the slaving away had finally because I think some sometimes we work really, really hard and we struggle to see the fruits of our labor. We struggle to see where this thing's gonna land us. But when it got to Rod calling me and inviting me in for an interview, I was like, oh, everything makes sense now. Everything makes sense, everything was leading up to this moment. Exactly, exactly. And now I look back, I'm like, oh, everything was kind of written in the stars. I did everything that I was supposed to, even the things that, you know, I failed at, which I failed many times, even the things that didn't work out, they all led me to here. And I managed to bypass a process that a lot of people they went to ad school, a lot of people they entered comp competitions. I I bypassed all of that because of the belief I had in myself, the audacity and also the work that I put in. So yeah, I think that's just a testament to self-belief and also making sure that you have the work and the evidence to match up to it.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

But I loved it. Oh my god, you need a freaking e-book. So I guess moving on to our next segment, Coin Confessions. I really want to understand landing those big early roles, landing those freelance projects. What has been your biggest financial learning?

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, so I think money's been, it will forever be and has been the biggest learning for me ever. I think when I first came into Widens, I remember I think that was the only experience of salary negotiation that I'd had because up until that point, I wanted lots of money, but I wasn't, I didn't really have the confidence. But I remember when they offered me the salary. At at the time, they offered me, I'm very transparent when it comes to money, so I can say because it was initially a junior position, they'd offered me 25k and I said bump bumped it up, bumped it up to 32, 33, I think. Go on, girl. I can't remember. And I was like, yeah, but even then, I know that there was a lot more money that I left on the table. And even after I had that conversation, I was shaking, I was quaking in my boots. I was like, oh no, that I can't be. I just asked for money. But over time, I learned, I think like the universe will keep on put putting you in the same positions until you learn. And there kept on being scenarios where I was like, Oh my god, this person's being paid more than me and do the same thing, or like I've just seen the budget for this. I'm just and I and it was just so many scenarios where I was like, now I can't blame anyone else besides myself, so I need to fix up. And I remember the last time where it really, really, really hit me hard was when I did some freelance work for an agency based in the States. And I remember they were like, Okay, so what's your day rate? And I gave them my day rate, and I was like, okay, yeah, sure, this should be fine. It's great. Also, for context, since I left the agency, I self-promoted myself. So I decided, yep, uh, if I'd stayed there, it would have taken like a good year to promote. So I promoted myself and I set myself a new new salary band. So I was navigating all these these freelance positions with this new salary band and this American company in my head, I was like, okay, I'm on this new salary band. The American base still have the budget. Why not put it forward? But before I sent the email, I went and I asked for advice from someone who I knew worked in the UK branch of that place. And I was like, Yeah, I just want to check because you know my insecurities are coming out. I don't know if I'm asking for too much. And this story is not gonna go the way you think it's gonna go. They said that I was asking for too much. So I went back, I went to the agency and I said, Yeah, this is my rate. And I low, I took, I chopped like 100 pounds off my day rate, and I thought that that was appropriate at the time. And it wasn't until after blood, sweat, and tears of the most intense brief I've ever done in my whole entire life, with an eight-hour time difference, by the way, because I was working on American Time. It was awful. And by the end of it, I was like, I can't believe I listened to that person and I didn't just go with my actual rate because now I'm exhausted, I'm tired, I'm burnt out, and I've been paid way less than what I should have. And I was just really annoyed at myself for not fighting because the work that I put in was insane, but the money I was being paid just wasn't worth it. And I think that was the final time where I was like, okay, from now on, whatever, whatever money I I want, I'm adding£100, and then we'll negotiate back from that. Like, I'm not, I cannot be doing that. It's stressful. I think another important lesson I've learned that I'm still learning is to, where possible, try and have more autonomy over the payment process because a lot of these big companies, they do not give a heck. They will pay you on 60-day terms, they'll tell you the invoice is coming and it won't come.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

90 days. I've got a 90-day one that I'm waiting on. I'm looking at the calendar, like, I've got 14 days left, I've got 13 days left. And I'm like, you mother, bearing in mind this project that it's a big, it's a big money project that I had to foot a lot of the bill for all of the team first. And I'm like, oh my god. Yo, you know, I had to shell out six bags before I even get ready, like just to get this done.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Like, boom, it's like it's it's January, it's February 17th now. There's freelance work that I still haven't been paid for from this December that I'm still chasing, but it was just, it's just like, okay, now you're taking the piss. So I think now I have a lot tighter rules and restrictions as to how I work with people. So for example, I'm putting watermarks until I see my final paycheck. I'm asking for money up front. Like I'm very, very tight. I will go with a contract, even if they have have one. And most of the times people now will be like, okay, yeah, sure, because I've come in with that energy and they respect that. And I'm also in a position where I can walk away if you're not going to do things on my terms, because I have bills to pay at the end of the day. And if you won't pay them, someone else will. So either go with what I'm saying or we'll find another way. But I think that is, it's still a it's still a thing I'm learning. I'm still growing and trying to be able to advocate for myself more. But yeah, like I said, I think it's I think it's a self-advocacy thing. When I left that agency, I've almost tripled my salary just by deciding. I literally left the agency and I was like, I'm not junior anymore. And every freelance project I've done has been for senior roles. Like I've been performing as a senior, and it's because I knew what my worth was. I knew in a big corporation, a company, it takes a long time to get promoted, no matter how hard you work. But I was learning, I was performing really well. So when I came out, I was like, I know I can perform as a senior because I put the work in. I think I'm extremely attentive, I'm meticulous. I've worked with the best of the best. Like, I'm not a little girl. I'm I'm going to force myself to the standard that I want to get to. And it's worked because now the salary conversations I have, the day rate that I have is nowhere near the money that I was making like six months ago. So, but that's all because I decided it. And because I decided it, other people agreed. It wasn't the other way around. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Totally, totally. And that leads us very nicely on to our next segment, two Lies in the Truth. It's funny when you said I shouldn't have listened to that person. I think, especially when you're earlier in your career, it's really easy to look at someone senior on paper and go, oh, whatever you say, it must be Bible. Like whatever advice you have, I've got to listen to it like it's gospel. When really you should just bank it, and then as and when a situation presents itself, you can like pick and choose and at the end of the day evaluate within the context of whatever your situation is. Has anyone ever given you two pieces of career advice that you turn around and like, oh, that's load of shit? Or you maybe believed at the time and then you went on to find out, like, shouldn't have listened to that.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah, do you know what? Funnily, I've received a lot of that, but it's come from people who I say this at the risk of sounding like an asshole, but it's come from people who are not in the position that I want to be in. So I've I have been subject to a lot of unsolicited career advice from people who I do not look up to, and that advice has always been a pack of piss every time. So it has been, it has been you're charging too much, or oh, maybe you need to do this first before you get there. And most of the time I'm like, one, I didn't ask for your opinion because I'm very particular about who I seek advice from. I seek advice from people who have proved that they are the people to ask advice from. But secondly, again, it goes back to just my perspective on life and the world. I see the world as very, very big. So yeah, it's just been really important to discern who to take advice from. And yeah, so I'd say the worst bit of advice was definitely from that person who taught me to charge less. I had someone telling me that it that it would take me at least four to five years to get to the kind of freelance work that I'm doing now. This person taught me this last year. They told me this last year, and now um to cut a long story short, I'm doing a lot better. Genuinely, it's like I think that's just another thing that you have to be good at. You have to have the discernment to be able to filter what advice is good advice and what advice you shouldn't take. Because again, I know what I'm capable of, and sometimes the advice that I get, it's just like, I think you're wrong. And what are your credentials?

SPEAKER_01 32:24

It's so true, and I think it's such an invaluable lesson to teach, like to explain to people. And it's funny when you say at the start, or I'm at the risk of sounding like an arsehole. To me, I actually see it as far more inspirational. It's like, no, put your big girl panties on and just be like, sorry, you work in construction. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's like if I want to work in PR, don't know why I'm listening to someone who works in construction, yeah, because you ain't gonna have a clue. And I'd be really interested to look at the career of whoever gave you that piece of advice, because I think a lot of the times people push their insecurities onto you. So if they might think that they need four to five years to get to wherever. But when I look, when I hear things like that, I go, I'd be really interested to see how that person's career's gone. Because maybe you're just a bit of a wet flannel, and it's like maybe that's why it's taken you four to five years. But if I'm not a wet flannel, within the context of me, myself, and my life and my personality and my character traits, that advice is just irrelevant. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Thousand percent. But genuinely, I think some of the worst advice, some of the less encouraging of people that I have interacted with in my life, it's not a coincidence. They tend to be people who are either not where they want to be yet or are not doing the things for themselves that they want to do, so it ends up being a projection thing. Whereas when I speak to people who these people might not even be where they want to be in life, but they're on their way there and they know it. And they're the people that I love to speak to because we see the world in the same way and they have big dreams and aspirations. But I think some sometimes just having that discernment of knowing, like, okay, this person's advice is not going to be the best because they have a very limited view of the world and where it can take them. So if you know that you're destined for greatness, you have to also be aligned with other people who see that for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Oof, yes. And so has anyone ever given you any good advice that you still hold true today?

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yes, 100%. This, okay, so I guess it's more generic advice, but I have um a very, very close friend. Her name is Cush. She um was my creative partner for the best part of the last two years. We've been through a lot of amazing work, a lot of trauma, we've trauma bonded, we've been through a lot together. But she is someone who every time, like I will go to, she's one of the first people that I'll go to when I have um like a career question or whether it's an opportunity that I'm not sure, sure of. She will always tell me whatever I'm thinking, I have to think bigger than that. So I remember I had I caught up with her a few days ago, and and I was like, oh, there's this client in the States, and they're really interested in working with me. And I think it could be really big, because moving to the States is is eventually the goal for me. And she was like, I mean, that's cool and all, yeah, it comes with the states, but I think you could do a lot bigger than that company. And in my head, I was like, this is already big to me, but I just think having someone else around you who also sees you as even bigger is so good. Because genuinely, I was like, I was maybe I was in a rut, I'm not sure, but I was like, okay, let me just take it because it's the first thing that's come, it's been a bit quiet. Yeah, why not? They're US based, it's a decent client. And she said, There's more for you. I think you're a lot bigger than this. And it it's a very big client, but she was like, I think there's even bigger. So just wait a second, because something there there will be bigger, and bigger came, and I'm so glad that I listened to her. But yeah, just I think being around people who again, she's someone who sees the world as big for herself, and she has really big genes and aspirations that she's working towards. So when I'm speaking to her, she's able to project that that positivity onto me because she's like, Well, I know that there's more for me, so there must be more for you. So think bigger. And I love that, I love that so much.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

When it comes to careers and your aspirations, I think it's so key to have a network around you that really understands your vision and sometimes like your mental ideas that to others might seem mental, but in your head, you're like, Yeah, why would I not be like CEO at 22? Uh obviously.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

So important, so so so important. I really do think that the people around you can make or break you. I've had friends who told me to my face, I think you're doing too much, or I remember there was something that I really wanted to pursue. I went and spoke to a friend about it, and they were like, That's gonna be really hard. And it did have an effect on me at the time, but now I'm a bit more like secure in what I want to do and who I want to be. But I think it's still important for me with with all the confidence that I have to be surrounded by people who see that for me and also for themselves, because otherwise they can derail you. And it's just have have good people around you guys, have good people around you.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

100%. So, in the spirit of hopefully giving good advice, because we don't project shitty behaviors over here. Um, our final segment was the 411. I've got three anonymous questions for you um from young women who are struggling with their career. So, our first one is from a 27-year-old from Bristol um who says, I am working in advertising and I feel like I have to water myself down to be taken seriously in my agency. I'm trying to keep my personality without risking my career and progression. Any advice?

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Oh, this is this has been the story of my life. I think I, everywhere that I've worked, if you speak to any company I've been to, uh, they will talk about how my personality just shines through in everything that I do. And I've never been too scared to show it. But I think if you are a woman, if you're in a minority group, if you're a person of color, definitely do not be shy to put your personality through. But unfortunately, you do also have to make sure that you are high performing in order for that to balance out. Because I think it becomes sticky territory where you don't want to, you know, limit your authenticity and you don't want to just, you know, dis disappear into a wall of corporate wankers. But I think in order for you to be that person who does, who doesn't compromise their personality, who does come in and show all their colours, you have to unfortunately also be really, really, really good at the job because the way that corporate treats us, it's like it's just it's life is really unfair. I I know it's kind of like a shit way to look at things, but genuinely, I think if you're not high performing, you can't prioritize your personality coming through. You have to also have the work to match it. I can confidently go into a meeting room with CEOs and CDs and you know put a mugshot of Justin Bieber on the screen and make them laugh because I know that the next slide is going to blow them away. So I can afford to be funny and have my personality come out because I know that I'm also doing the work. So I would say, I guess it goes back to what I've been saying throughout, but the confidence is a stack of evidence. So once you have the evidence that you can do what you're saying that you you can do, your personality can shine through and it can come through easily, and you won't have to worry about compromising who you are because if you're paying the client's bills, like if you're getting the work done, no one can actually chat to you. And that's always been my thing. Like, no, no one's gonna tell, tell me I can't wear these six-inch shields in the office. No one's gonna tell me I can't have my bright yellow eye shadow, no one's gonna tell me that I can't make people laugh because at the end of the day, the work is fucking good. So like you're taking the full me, the full package.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

I wish, I wish like 19-year-old Camilla listened to that answer when I was younger because I've got giant like red nails. I will wear a gold hoop earring no matter the fucking occasion. And I used to wear it in a really, really corporate, like corporate office where it was like women should wear pencil suits and heels vibes. I was like, I don't, that's not me. Like, that's not me. Also, people need to stop being so dramatic. As long as you're not doing fucking cartwheels in an office, because that's just illogical, like, of course, that's gonna be distracting. Yeah, outside of that, I don't understand why people the thing is like I feel like especially if you're a minority, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

Like, you could cough and they're gonna look at you like you just you began the bombings in where wherever, like they'll they will villainize you for anything. So you might as well just be your authentic self because they'll hate you if you do, they'll they'll hate you if if you don't. Just make sure that you're also the best at what you do because your work they can never say shit shit about. They can talk about your character, your humour, your personality, what whatever. But if your work is good, back to sender, back to sender every time.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

Yep, a hundred percent. Oh, I love that. That's one of my favorite answers. Our second question. This girl is 24 and she wants to move from music, uh music writing into more into more areas. I'd love to talk about fashion, beauty, and maybe even some of my passion projects, but I don't know how to make the jump. I currently work at an agency, but I'm not really sure how I can transition into making writing my full-time career.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

That's a really good question. I think it goes back to what I'm saying, I was saying earlier about how you have to do the thing you want to do before someone else gives you permission to do it. So she needs to the advice I'll give to her specifically if she wants to transition into another industry, build up that book of your own accord through passion projects and then apply the audacity of reaching out to people directly. I'm a a big believer in, oh, you want a job there? Who's the CEO? Have you spoken to them? No? Okay, go go speak to them. But before she gets to that point, I would say create the work yourself. So you've established what the transition is that you want to make, but until you have it written down, until you have that physical work that you can go to that person with and say, oh, look, I've done this, then it's just air and it's just words. But you have to, I don't think it's enough to say I want to transition. I think it's a better conversation when when you say, look at what I've done, now where can it take me? I think those are different conversations. So I would say prioritize actually physically making the transition yourself by accumulating those passion projects and creating that work for yourself. Then the conversation is I'm no longer in music, I'm now in this, but I want to climb up in this. I think those that change in persp in perspectives is important.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

Our final question is uh Oh god, classic, this is funny. But I actually think you will have touched on it, you've you is kind of in the running theme. Uh, I have big ideas and I'm early in my career, but I'm not scared to speak up for myself in meetings. What is the best way to translate my idea to senior staff and make sure that they buy into the vision? So I guess more than anything, it's about that like pitch prices and how do you really sell your story?

SPEAKER_00 43:07

The transition that this person needs to go through is being able to put together a very, very good deck. I think deck work is just as much storytelling and artwork as it is strategy and information. And I think if you have some something that is very well created, professionally put together, you have very strong insights, you've thought about the execution, you've thought about it in detail, and you've put it very nicely and professionally into a deck, that is how senior people will take you seriously. I went through that too. There was a transitionary phase I had to go through from, oh, I'm an emerging creative who has some ideas, and I think this would be really cool, and I like the idea of this, to oh, I have a deck with the concept and references and a strategy and research. It's all about how you package it because ultimately these industries are smoke and mirrors. And even if you have the best idea in the world, if it's not put together. Polish nicely in a professional deck, then you'll struggle to be taken seriously, unfortunately. But that's the thing that I've managed to master. I learned the art of communicating an idea, knowing how to sell an idea through words, through visuals, how to you essentially have to treat a deck as if it's kind of like a Bible or like a brand book. Like this is this is the thing, this is the glowing thing in the senior person's email that's going to make them go, oh, you're not a junior or emerging, like you are someone who should be a bit higher up, to have someone a bit more seeing, and like you have the potential to do that. So the the craft, I know I've speak, I've spoken quite figuratively throughout the interview, but to get down to craft and mastery, understanding the basics of how to communicate an idea in a deck, how to use language to storytell your idea, how to use visual references in a deck, put it together so that the craft is there and it looks very clean and professional. That's what will separate you from someone who's just an emerging creative who has a few ideas in their head to know a senior person will take this seriously. And I say this as someone who looks at decks and does book crits for junior creatives. I can always tell when it's someone who is serious and wants to be taken seriously by how well crafted their deck is. So don't overlook those really key mass mastery craft points. Like it's really, really important. Learn learn how to make a deck. There's so many amazing tools and resource and resources online. Have a look on YouTube. But yeah, it's something that I want to eventually go into, just teaching people how to make a really good deck. Because I think that people some sometimes think it's just like a few slides and then they put the idea on, but no, how you communicate it is what will make those senior people take you seriously.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

A hundred percent. Do you know what, Cebu? This is literally been one of my favorite interviews. More than anything, you like I also hate this word. Sorry if you hate this word as well, but you know ooze, but I want another word because everyone thinks ooze is gross, but do you know what I mean? Like you ooze like a confidence that is so sexy, but also so inspiring. And I'm just like, man, I needed you in my ear when I was like 19, like shitting myself to lift my hand up in a meeting. But I just think you you're such a great example of if you want to be a great creative, hone your craft, learn your craft, and be the best you can be. And I just I cannot thank you enough for such such an insightful interview.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Thank you so much for having me. Genuinely, I think I've I've got to a point where I'm like, I need to give the message back now because I'm like, oh my, because I I feel the same too. I'm like, even though I am me, I do wish I had me now when I was 18. Because she wasn't, she wasn't there. She was out of office then, but she's here now. So any opportunity to be able to let these insights is so important. So thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I've loved it. Thank you so much, my darling, for joining us.