She Left L'Oréal to Go It Alone | Chloe Bate on PR, Brand & Creative Careers

Most people would kill for a job at L'Oréal. Chloe Bate had that — and Diageo, and Huel — and then walked away to build something entirely on her own terms.

A marketing and communications consultant who's worked across some of the most recognisable brands in the world, Chloe has spent her career at the intersection of PR, brand strategy and digital marketing. She knows what it takes to shape a brand narrative that cuts through, how to keep evolving as the industry changes around you, and what it actually feels like to go from a corporate salary to betting on yourself.

In this episode, we get into all of it — navigating big brand environments, knowing when it's time to move on, making the leap to freelancing, and building the kind of confidence that doesn't rely on a job title to back it up.

Whether you're starting out in PR and communications, thinking about going freelance, or trying to figure out your next move in marketing — this one's for you.

⚡ What we cover: 

→ Building a career across PR, brand and communications 

→ What it's really like working for major global brands 

→ Knowing when to move on and how to do it well 

→ Making the leap from corporate marketing to freelance consultant 

→ Pricing yourself, owning your value and ditching the guilt 

→ Confidence and career progression in creative industries.

💌 Join #TheChaosClub for career tips & and unfiltered pep talks → www.instagram.com/sheslostcontrolpodcast/ 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You're listening to She's Lost Control. Today I'm joined by the incredible Chloe Bate, currently fractional CMO at Beauty Brand Necessary Good and a marketing communications consultant whose career has spanned some of the biggest brands in the game. From Julio, Diagio, L'Oreal, working across PR, brand, digital, and communications. This episode is all about building a career that evolves with you. From shaping brand narratives and leading communication strategy to freelancing money, confidence, and the reality of figuring things out as you go. Let's get into it. Chloe, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited because I think your career is such an example of not only those squiggly careers that everyone talks about, but you know, how to really grow within those big corporate organizations and then go on to set up shop on your own. But I really want to go right back to the start. Did you always know that you wanted to have a creative career? Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

In fact, I thought I'd have a much more creative career than this even. I was determined, convinced I was going to be a fashion designer. That was the goal, the obsession. I can also see it. Thank you. Yeah, all I wanted to do was paint and draw and sew. So kind of creativity is completely in my bones. Um to the point that, you know, I in even through school, I binned off all my um academic A levels to do just purely creative A levels, much to the school's kind of dismay because they wanted, I was actually quite academic. I was good at all of the classic stuff, but I just wanted to follow that dream. And that's the path I took right up until the 11th hour when I just was about to step foot onto the fashion design degree at uni and suddenly panicked and went, I just know in my bones that I'm not good enough to be the top 1%. I love it, but it's not gonna be my career. And I'm so glad I listened to my gut because I kind of did a bit of a sidestep to fashion marketing, which was the perfect mix, it was absolute like jackpot, really. Um, still that really amazing creative mix, but with the rigour of business and strategic thinking. And so yeah, listen to your gut. That was kind of my saving grace right in the 11th hour. Um, but yeah, still still love everything creative, still paint, still really skew on on a creative side of marketing. But um, yeah, I think I took the right path.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

You did purely creative A levels. Were your family supportive of that? You know, I think sometimes, especially when you are good at the you know, the basic subjects, English, math, science and you're getting those good grades, I think sometimes it's even harder for your circle around you, whether that be teacher's brain, parents, for them to let go of the reins and say, Yeah, go on, go and paint away.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Yeah, no, completely. My um I was I think my mum came in and had to have a meeting with the headmistress because the headmistress was so adamant that I shouldn't limit myself, that it would be too limiting, that I had more potential. And yeah, my parents just completely backed me, which you know, they're they're absolute legends. They they knew that it's what I wanted to do, they knew it wouldn't necessarily be the most straightforward career for me, but they knew it would make me happy. And so, yeah, my mum came like trudging into the mistress's office with me to fight my corner. And I'm sure they were probably a little bit relieved when they kind of went actually you've probably gone for a little bit of a safer route. That's still something you really care about. But yeah, they but me and both my brothers have supported us whatever we wanted to do, and like have always said you can do whatever you put your mind to has always been their mantra. So um, yeah, they they completely kind of stood true to that and supported me, followed my kind of crazy dreams wherever they've taken me ever since.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

No, we love that. Who went to uni and discovered that hybrid creative passion with strategy, having had the experience that you've had now, that sort of degree or environment? Do you think it's still necessary or relevant, especially in a time when now we've moved to a skills-based market where you can, you know, learn so much online without having to go to university? Do you still think that has a value? And and what did you take from that?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

It's such a good question. Because I think so. I went to uni, God, 20 something years ago, so lifetime ago. The thing that saved me in my degree, because I basically just had a blast, like I just partied really hard and didn't really do a lot of work. And then in my third year, I suddenly kind of went, Oh shit, I can't really go home and say to my parents, had a great time, nothing to show for it. Like, whoops. So the thing that really saved me was, and I've learned this in my kind of career ongoing, is I'm good at the practical stuff. I can show you I can do a really good job better than I can tell you I can like some people are like great at the cell of themselves. I'm not very good at that sell. I'm really good at the doing. And I was really lucky that there was this um this amazing university program or kind of project, I suppose, called Brandstorm that was run by L'Oreal and it was a global thing. Think the global marketing Olympics. It was kind of quite a comedy in some ways, but brilliant in others. You could kind of apply to be in this program, this competition, and you had to have a team of three people. And you basically acted as a marketing director for a live brand. So you were given real kind of market data. Myself and my best friend kind of created a group. We did all of the work, you had to kind of do lots of theoretical work, submit it. So it's really practical and really tangible. And it was the thing that really got me out of I just kind of don't really care about my degree, it's fine, it's just box-ticking exercise. Two, I really love marketing. And then we kind of we'd won the UK finals against all odds, really, because there were two of us in a team when there should have been three. But we put our housemates our my friend's housemate name down because we knew she was pregnant, we didn't want to work with anyone else. So we were like, we'll put her down because if we get miserable, she just to do. I know, and also not a good look to be like, yeah, she's just finishing her third year, giving birth. Um so you know, we kind of like had sort of broken, bent a few rules in the fact that we didn't think we'd get very far. Anyway, we did, and then we went through to the global finals, and it was amazing. You we worked with pubicists, so like a global ad agency. We had to day with them, with their designers, bringing our creative ideas and our marketing campaigns to life. We were then taken to Paris to go and present, or we presented in the Natural Portrait Gallery to the UK Finals, and then in the global finals, we went then went and presented in front of the CEO and some of the exact numbers. I mean, it was just off the charts. And I think that for me is when I kind of went, Oh my god, this is what I need to do. I love this world. But it it kind of saved me as well. I had I just needed to do a dissertation, I'd have probably just been all right. Yeah, exactly. I'd have suffered through it. This was a really practical way of me showing my skills. So, to your question about do you think degrees matter now? I I I'm on the fence because I think sometimes they bring the best out of people and sometimes they don't, and that's okay. Like it's okay to have a different approach, and I think there's too much focus and stock put on traditional education or traditional career progression and ladders, and that I think it's nonsense, but it's not necessary.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I think nowadays I think we're slowly starting to wake up. I've never been asked in any of my jobs, bearing in mind I went and did a master's, and I don't know what the fuck I went and like spent another 10 grand for. Like it would it, it's it's been so interesting to see the market shift, and it's like now I see younger generation coming up behind, they have skills that it's like, oh, I thought you had to go to uni. And they're like, No, no, there's an online course from Harvard that you can just download and you can do it, and then you get your accreditation. I think she say, because it's been interesting seeing the women that have come on the podcast and said, you know, it was through my uni uh course that I one of my lecturers she knew that I was interested in something, she then pointed me in the right direction, or you know, I was erming and ring about which avenue in marketing to go down. Yeah, someone in the course told me, Oh, this might interest you. There's an internship scheme. But I think, like I say, is that fine balance of you depending on who you are as a person and what you really want to take out of it. So once you come out of uni, how did you get into those early roles?

SPEAKER_01 8:06

So, because the kind of marketing competition was run by L'Oreal, they almost gave you a not guaranteed, but a pretty much guaranteed opportunity as an intern, which was amazing. But that was kind of my first proper career blooper because I was sent to this meeting being told you're going to meet your manager and she's going to tell you about the role. And my manager was told you're doing an interview with this person. So, like really awkward, awful meeting where she was like, Who is this girl? Who's just kind of rocked in and gone, so what will I do then? And you know, like absolutely clueless. So massive crossed wires. We're still the best of friends now. Her son's my godson. So, like, it works out well on a professional and personal level. But I think she she kind of A, she didn't think the internship was guaranteed. So she kind of sent me a challenge, the project. And I did my classic. Oh my god, I feel so mortified that I cocked this up and so desperate for this job. So I stayed up all night doing this kind of response to his project. And I think she says she looked at the first page of it and then went, This girl's amazing, I'm going to take her. So I could have probably had a bit more kick. But um, I just kind of worked out really well in that because it was an internship, so just a 12-month fixed um role, I was put in this new position that kind of was just hadn't existed before, which was a bit of a mix of classic CRM relationship marketing and then digital. And digital was like this weird nobody was really looking at it. It was super early days, it's like 2005 or something frightening like that. I think Facebook was just breaking into the UK. I mean, like, that's how old I am, how long ago this was. But it was uh it was just an amazing time because it was the perfect role for me and the creative, innovative kind of flair that I've got. So there were no eyes on it. You know, L'Oreal is a global business, it operates in a really slick way where things are kind of created globally and localized. And digital was this world that nobody was really, nobody really had a plan for at that point in time. It was a very light plan, it wasn't a big priority. So you just had this amazing creative freedom that everything could be done locally and and much more tailored. And it just meant that it really pulled on all of my strengths. And I had a manager who was up for me being that nag who would be like, I've got an idea, and I think we should do this and we should try this, and YouTube, like people seem to like watching how-to videos. So why don't I get our makeup artists and the new looks that the PR team have done? And why don't we just get a really kind of budget film crew together and just try and see if these things work? And so it just, I don't know, I I kind of say I I'm lucky and then I'm like, but I also worked damn hard. But there were there were some really well-aligned stars that kind of just worked for the right timing for me that helped me build my marketing capability in amazing businesses like L'Oreal and Diaggio, but in quite unique roles that really helped me lean into this kind of right, I hate the term out of the box thinking, but you know, it it was that sort of, you know what we're trying to do, but and you've got this channel that we we don't really fully know how to leverage it, but give it a go. And there's kind of like a bit of permission to fail, a bit of permission to try. Um, and some things were just amazing successes, and other things fell on their face, but that's life.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

That's the beauty of it. And do you think at the time you really understood how early you you were coming into this digital world?

SPEAKER_01 11:49

I think so. I think because there was nobody to really bounce off, that was the big missing. So a lot of it was self-taught and like being a bit of a nerd and kind of swatting up on various things or going to industry bodies and you know, trying to get as much information as I could. Um so I think from that perspective, yes, but not properly until you look back and kind of think, actually, we we did what we thought was the best thing to do, but we just had no idea where it would go. I mean, this this sounds crazy now, but I remember going to IAB conferences every year, and they'd be like, very soon we're all going to be doing everything on our mobile. And that just seemed absolutely like not ever going to happen, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was because we were all like flip phones. So it just, yeah, I think it didn't feel it felt early to an extent because there was no proof point, there was no rules set print or flueprint exactly. But there was no way of knowing how fragmented and how kind of reliant on that channel we would become, and how it would change so many things in marketing. So yeah, didn't know how much momentum we had yet to climb, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, and you mentioned you had a manager who clearly tried to create a space and an environment for you where you did feel like you could go through upon something or just try something new and see if it works. How important do you think it is for people in those senior positions who have juniors under them to create those spaces? How valuable do you think that can be to a young person's career?

SPEAKER_01 13:17

My God, it's so valuable. I mean, I think you've got to you've got to manage risk within a reasonable amount. So as long as that person isn't constantly saying, look, I just want to do all the other stuff, but not the stuff you pay me to do, that doesn't work for anybody. I think it's a real skill to be a really good manager and leader. And not everybody who is a manager and leader has that skill. I've been really lucky. The majority of people who have managed me have seen my strengths and my weaknesses, but they've worked towards my strengths more than they have my weaknesses, and that is a really powerful thing to do for anybody. But yeah, I think you've got to kind of let people throw themselves out there and make mistakes. And it's I've got a three-year-old daughter, and it's a bit the same, like you kind of want to do everything for everybody and fix all the problems, and actually stepping back and letting somebody fail, fall, dust themselves off, and grow is a much more valuable lesson you can give to somebody. And I think it's easier to give people that freedom and that confidence and like backing when the business is doing well. And I think naturally, when business isn't doing well and the pressure is on more people, that pressure just domino effects down through the infrastructure of the company often. So it's harder to for yourself as an individual or for yourself as a leader or as an employee to be able to do those other things that might not work or take the focus away. But it's the only way people grow is if somebody understands what drives them and it helps fan the flames that really kind of motivates them. And I love nothing more than and I was like this, somebody being like, I want to grow, I want to learn more, I want to put extra hours in, I am hungry. Like somebody comes to me doing that, you've got the job.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Because it's gonna be my next question. What what did those early years teach you about, you know, not only progression, but obviously you had to show something for those around you to see the talent and see the hunger? How much do you think that helped you grow throughout those early years of your career? And what do you think that anyone starting out or maybe venturing into a new industry, what do you think that they can do to set themselves apart to really show off, this is what I'm great at, this is why you should pay attention to me. Whether it is let me take more risk or just allow me to branch out within the organization, what do you think people can do?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Um, I think it's so I think the really important thing in those kind of say fairly early five years of my career was just being around multiple different functions. And I think that's hard now. I think a lot of people are working remotely or hybrid. And I think in those early parts of your career, that is hard because I learned a hell of a lot because relationship skills is one of my big strengths. Like I'm chatty, I chat to everybody, I made loads of friends, I was always in the pub on a Friday night with everybody. You know, like I I kind of created this network and contacts and relationships with all the other functions, which enabled me to do better work. So I would kind of mix with everybody, they would know that I was a decent person. Like it meant that you could call a few favors in if you needed legal and you know, sign off quicker. You could be like help, please, because you've kind of got a good rapport with them. But I think also just like the the value of understanding what other people do and what you do and how you show up just through office osmosis is really important. So I think that it's a different time now because you know, at the point in your career like I'm at, I love working remotely because I can be really, really efficient, focused, self-kind of I structure my time really well. I don't need that extra environment, buzz and kind of inspiration. I I like it and I still get it occasionally, but I don't need it every day. I think that would be my advice is if you don't get that through your current work setup, find other ways because there's some amazing networks and communities and groups where you can get that learning and help fuel that kind of inquisitive nature if you've got it, and just like feed that feed that muscle from somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Totally. And I think it it is that fine balance as you get further on in your career, you're like, I do want the flexibility to be able to plan my own time. But I really resonate like in those early years, it is like walking past someone's desk and being like, What are you doing? Like, what do you do? Oh, okay. And and you never know how their department function might actually benefit you. Like it's something so invaluable that, like she say, if you can't find it in your immediate workspace, it's important to try and find it elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Definitely. And I think that you can't grow unless you've got all the time in the world to go and work in all those other functions. If you want to be a proper business leader or brand leader, you need to understand the context of those other functions. And I didn't realise until I left L'Oreal that actually I had a really, really good commercial grounding without having ever worked in the commercial functions because I sat next to the commercial teams and the logistics teams. So that is so important because yeah, nobody ever builds a business by being an expert in one area. You've got to have good, healthy knowledge of all of the areas and the impact they have on each other.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, totally. And it's always like that story of, you know, when people say, like, I started in the mail room and then I worked all the way up as a president. It's like, oh, okay, well, that fucker really will know how the posting goes out. He really will know when the newsletters go out. Oh, yeah. And so in your time at L'Oreal, you were there for like just under six years. How was that growth process of moving up? And what advice could you give on anyone trying to sort of move work their way up the ladder?

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, I mean, that I kind of got promoted within role a few times. So I I effectively played in the same role, just became more senior and got more money for it. So it wasn't kind of it wasn't much of a because there were only two people in the entire building that did my job and we were both at the same level, or it was the commons directors. So because it was such an early time for digital, I kind of actually the reason I left was there was nowhere for me to go and I had the bug for kind of working in digital because I knew it just kept evolving and changing quicker than anyone could keep a grasp of. So I was like, actually, to really grow in my career, I need to go somewhere else and live in a bigger organization or an organization that's spending more money on it or doing it differently. So I sort of outgrew it because I stayed in that specific role. What I could have done, and what a lot of people who did the same kind of introduction to L'Oreal as I did, was do the internship in one role and then dot around in lots of different functions and different categories. But I just, like I said, I just had the bug for digital and I just kept proving that the value I was giving was worth a promotion. And I was backed by a manager who could see that I grafted and would put in, you know, 18 hours a day, often when it was needed, you know. And that that was kind of just the yeah, it wasn't any yeah, it wasn't any more complex than that, really. I actively decided this is what I really enjoy doing because it's out of the normal marketing lineage journey. And and so I wanted to stick with it and I had the support of the right people, and I delivered what what I said I would and more. So that's kind of where it where it came from. But it did get to a point where I think in those early years of your career, you tend to get promoted quite quickly, little steps quite quickly, in a traditional corporate business, and then those steps get fewer and further between. So I kind of thought, well, yeah, time for me to try something different and um look for the next thing at that point.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

She then went on to Diagio. How how did that come up and what was that experience like?

SPEAKER_01 21:07

So that again was just totally right place, right time. Diaggio were hiring for I think it was three roles, two in GB and one in a global function for again digital relationship marketing, that sort of whole hybrid. And I was Emming and Ring, I've been offered a few jobs and I didn't know what to do, and I was kind of a bit naive to the job market. I actually went for drinks with my boss, my L'Oreal boss, who was on maternity leave at the time, and I was going, Oh, don't want to do, I've got these job offers, and they're they're both great, but and she was like, You're not interested in either of them, I can tell. You're trying to talk yourself into them. And she said, Go home and have a think about where you want to work and who you want to work for. And I just was like, I've always wanted to work on Guinness. That's like since a kid, I wanted to work on Guinness. My dad's Irish, it's like the cult brand, shouldn't have been on my radar as a kid because. But now like advertising laws are it's cultural heritage. Yeah, exactly. But I remember telling a babysitter, I think, that I wanted to work on Guinness, so I must have been young, but I think it was my dad's influence. But uh yeah, so I kind of went, okay, Guinness, therefore, Diaggio. Literally, you couldn't make it up, but I looked on the website that night and there were these three roles that all of them that I could have applied for and could have The stars aligned. Absolutely, yeah. So I kind of applied for the job, got it, uh, and then it all kind of it all pivoted really quickly then. So Diaggio, not long after I started, did a restructure. And it's a company that does, you know, kind of have restructures fairly often, um, keeps things really fresh, it opens up loads of opportunities, it kind of, you know, makes the business more efficient, it's great for many reasons. And it then meant that I moved into this kind of marketing innovation function, which was exactly where I needed to be, because there was just this whole function dedicated to everything that wasn't traditional advertising. So that was the easiest way of describing what we did. Take TV and press out, and we do everything else, whether it's PR, whether it's events, whether it's um social, whether it's content, like all the different verticals of that broader long-tail marketing mix was what this team was set up to do. And so it was amazing. It meant that I kind of hopped from role to role within that function for a good four or five years, I think, and had this like really, really deep dive focus on and say content strategy. And I would lead content strategy and planners for the European function, um, and like do lots of capability build for the brand teams, or you know, find kind of more streamlined way of doing things that consolidated our agency model, for instance, and make things more efficient. So it's really interesting, very creative on one hand, but also very um, you know, it's about kind of efficient business models and processes as well. So, um, and lots of coaching, capability building, but still with a massive dollop of like, we don't know what we're doing in this space, and we need to kind of figure out a plan and like what is the plan? And I'd create something and work with other like really smart people to kind of create what we think is the best plan and we'd roll it out and iterate on it. So other are the really great roles that kind of gave me real permission to um keep growing and keep kind of uh fueling that desire to innovate and be creative about how we do marketing differently, and then I did another five years there as a head of culture and entertainment for Europe, which was a bit more of a broad culture kind of comms um role. Um so yeah, really, really amazing time, brilliant business to work on.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

And in that period, what because I think, especially as creatives, you you're often tasked with like, give me an idea. Give me an idea now. Think of a new cool thing, and it's just like ah, I've been staring at a screen or a bank wall, I I I need something. How is it that Chloe kept kept her creative juices going? How did you continue to innovate and chuck out new ideas? Especially when, like you say, it was still things were still early doors, you didn't have as much to consume as what we do now. It's like oodles of endless inspiration, even though I think it's all probably same, same, different, different.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah, yeah, I think it is. Good question. I mean, I don't ever think there's one way that I would necessarily say I stay creative or inquisitive. I think it's just again a bit of osmosis on how you take information and spot trends. Ultimately, there's two questions to ask. What is the consumer caring about, feeling, seeing, doing, and how can we best best answer that? And that will always give you springboards for creative ideas if you look and listen properly. And secondly, what could the business do better, different, more efficient? And I think the second you start to question those sorts of things, if you're naturally a bit of a solution finder or an ideas person, ideas bounce off those because that's your inspiration. You're either finding a fault or a problem and turning it into an opportunity or a gap that you can fill. And so, like creative ideas aren't always a meet execution of like, you know, here's a campaign or here's a we're sort of quite often it's maybe a rehashing of a structure or a process or to make things really efficient and streamlined, which enables better stuff come coming out the other end, or it could just be a really tactical solution that's just an absolute winner. But I think you've got to start with kind of understanding what the problem is, whether it's consumer or business, and that will give you loads of I think you made a really way where you say you know you have to ask the questions and listen.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

I think one thing that I learnt later in my career is if you just close your mouth and just listen, your client will probably give you the answer that is not in the brief. It's it's when they're sort of chatting away and they just say one little thing where it's like, actually, that's your real brief. Your brief is not this like 10-page deck. That's actually what you're trying to get to. So true. And then when you finished up at Diageo and then you went on to Huel, that was a freelance role, if if I'm not wrong. Yeah, project, yeah. How did that sort of come about? I guess what advice could you give for anyone who's trying to get into that sort of freelance base?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

I got into Huel from somebody who was an ex-colleague from Diaggio. So she'd gone to Hule, and actually that has been my biggest, my biggest kind of source of work since going freelance has been people that I've worked with before. So it goes back to one of my points earlier about relationships and showing up to show people what you can do and how you work so that they think of you then in the future. So yeah, she she was working there. They had a gap on PR. I was like, I haven't worked for a D2C business before, I haven't worked for a startup. It was a great role in that it it was a really good challenge for me to help them shape their PR and cons kind of offering, but also selfishly, it was a really good opportunity for me to throw myself into something like a really different type of business. And that was what I'd been really longing for. I love my corporate career and you know, experience working on some of the best brands in the world and cutting my teeth learning from the best marketeers in the world. That is amazing, and I am eternally grateful for that. But I knew that there was kind of a whole chunk of marketing that I just didn't have a clue about. I'd just been in this fortunate position of working for these global juggernaut brands that had deep pockets and really high consumer awareness. So it was an amazing freelance gig for my first gig. But it was as much about me kind of helping shape um the the kind of PR and comms kind of strategy and offering as me really wanting to learn about how D2C businesses operate. And and that was just kind of really where I yeah, where I kind of felt a real passion for that.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

I think, especially when you've kind of had such a like stellar career in in that corporate space, like you say, big brands, big names, it can be quite scary to step away from something that seems one guaranteed and two like I would be dumb to leave this like great thing that for many and myself was probably a North Star at a point. What was it that gave you that gumption to be like fuck it? What was it in Chloe that gave her that that strength?

SPEAKER_01 29:17

I in truth, so probably didn't really have much of a master plan at the time. So I left DiAgio. There was a restructure where the business had gone from a European model back to a local model. So the process was you could kind of put your hat in a ring for roles that took your fancy, and and I kind of got to a point where I was like, actually, I don't know that anything does take my fancy this time. And I'd just moved out of London just to the outskirts, and me and my husband were planning our wedding, and the life had changed, and it felt like I'd sort of expired a bit on the kind of roles that I wanted to go for. And so I I took redundancy. I then had a bit of like a curveball like six months because this was during COVID as well. So Joy. I know I had all this time off, like that I'd kind of elected to kind of have time off and not jump back into work and I couldn't leave the house. But I thought, right, I'm going to train to be an interior designer and I'll do that. And anyway, long story short, realised I actually really, really like marketing. So that wasn't the right thing for me to do, but it was fun. I have kind of a couple of months of doing nice creative things. And then I think it was a funny time looking for work, and I didn't really know what I exactly wanted to do. And people were really, really like the hiring kind of process at the time was yeah, it was just a really messy time to try and find work. And so that knocked my confidence quite a bit, if I'm honest. And then, yeah, then this call came through from my my friend and ex-colleague saying, Look, I think it'd be great. I just needed to kind of help us out on this for a bit, and then it kind of expanded to about nine months. And that was the boost I needed. And after that, I thought I've always thought going freelance is actually quite a big deal, but it's not, it's just doing this, and that kind of really made it really accessible. It's just doing a a job that's not necessarily got the guarantee that you have before. And actually, you find those jobs because you've built really strong relationships, you've got a good reputation, you keep front of mind with people, classic marketing, you know. Um, and do you say that's so PR of you? I know I'd always thought, should I go freelance? Should I work for myself? Never really had the courage to do it, and then realised that it didn't take quite that much courage. And it really suited me and my life stage at that point in time. And I like variety. I think the hard thing is managing the ambiguity, and that takes some time. And I don't think you can really prepare yourself for that. Am I gonna have a gap in work for a while? Or by tomorrow afternoon, am I going to have too much work and need to try and find other ways to manage that? And it's just impossible to manage. And so you've just got to ride that wave.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

I think it's such a refreshing tip because I think often, like to say, you hear about going freelance or going out on your own, and it's very doom and gloom, scary. You're this is terrifying, this is this is such a huge risk. Do you think that that's something that people need to shake off and just give it a go or maybe just switch their perspective and the way they're looking at it?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I think a few things. I think it's not for everybody. I struggle with the kind of like, ah, panic every so often. And if that's how you're wired, it takes some getting used to. And if you're really wired like that, stay in the security of the job. You know, like it's it is a bit kind of up and down. Um the other thing I think is it's become massive now, particularly with women. I think it's that it seems to skew more towards women that might be a bit of a live stage thing. I think that from what I can see, it's more skewed towards women. And then also I think that there's a lot of people doing it, which is amazing because I think that it is the future. It's it's better for some businesses to manage their risk and have people fractional employees or just project-led or whatever it might be. That's a really efficient way to manage your business. But I think there is an influx of people who are saying they can do it. And I think that there's a risk with that. And I see it when I try and hire, say, more junior people to kind of work with me or alongside me. And I feel like there's a risk that a lot of people can come across jack of all trades and master of none. So just own your lane. And that your lane can be multi-lanes, but just be really clear about what your proposition is because I think otherwise there's this risk that a lot of people are moving into this kind of fractional freelance way of working, which is great. And I love that it's dynamic and different. It's the most helpful, supportive place I've worked, despite not working in a place or with anybody ever. And I've worked in amazing places that are amazing for culture. But everybody wants to help each other. Nobody ever says no. There's no sort of bottling people away from jobs because I think the the most people have the opinion that there's enough work out there and it's for the right people in for the right brands and businesses. But I would say that it's becoming a little bit muddied that there's a lot of people doing the same thing without being really tangible about what they do.

SPEAKER_00 34:12

And really honing that craft on on what what their area and expertise is.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yeah, and this is the thing, and and I I try and make a real point of I managed this last year, and I think it's probably the only New Year's resolution I ever kept. I don't know quite how, I think I didn't realise that I was doing it, and then all of a sudden it happened. So it was great. But I met with one new person every week last year, and that was either through just randomly connecting to people on LinkedIn and kind of saying that, you know, we've got so-and-so in common. Looks like you do similar sort of thing to me, like, do you want to have a catch-up coffee? Or just people, you know, reconnecting with people that I'd worked with years ago, you know, just having meetings with agencies for a purpose, for a brief, and then saying, actually, let's have a coffee. So I was kind of constantly, because I hate the word network, I feel like it always suggests that you're there to get something out of it. Comes across very wanky. Yeah, I hate it. Yeah, yeah. Um, and like the idea of a networking event where you've got to stand there and kind of schmooze, like, oh hi, nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

I guess it's like, oh, we all know what we're here for. We all just want business and money. That let's be honest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:14

Whereas whereas this approach was actually a really nice way of doing it because it ended up just genuinely making new connections, no agenda, like no kind of I want to speak to you for this, that and the other. And every time, pretty much without fail, there'd be kind of, oh, I need to introduce you to that person, that'd be really good, or you should listen to this podcast, or you should do and that has helped no end in the freelance world, I think, because like I say, it's a really friendly, collaborative, supportive world. But I think it really helps for loneliness. You've got to find ways because to your point, you're doing all the other stuff, and a lot of that stuff is really thankless, and often you're doing one day a week that isn't billable in the stuff, you know, whether that's account stuff, writing links in content. So people kind of go, it's that normal. And it's nice to bounce things off people and say, Yeah, that's normal or that's not normal, you need to kind of find a better way of doing that. Or, you know, I've even been really transparent with people and said, look, you do the same job as me. I don't know whether I'm benchmarking my price right. Like, I'll tell you my day weight if you tell me yours. And like we'll just keep it confidential. But otherwise, we're all fumbling around in the dark and it is no good to anybody. So I actually, the second you start having that really supportive, genuine conversation where there's nothing in it for me, nothing in it for you, but actually we might be helpful for each other in the future, like it it's really powerful.

SPEAKER_00 36:36

I want to go on to our um second segment coin confessions. What did you learn from, you know, going up in promotions? What is it that someone should be showing to be able to get a little bit of extra money when they move up? And then also going freelance when you're securing those new clients, how do you price yourself depending on the type of project? And especially if you say, you know, you are working with other people, you have to make sure that you have money for them and for yourself. What have been your biggest financial learnings?

SPEAKER_01 37:01

So I think when it comes to the corporate world, both being managed and being a manager in that space, I'll be honest, I think it's really hard to break out of the brackets that they put in place. You know, you're a brand manager or you're this role or you're this role, and that's your salary. It's really rigid, I think, unless you come in from external and you've got like absolutely, you know, like you're kind of doing 120% of what the job description kind of quotes. Probably never really going to get near that top mark until you're ready for a promotion. And it's it's just there's a process. So I think that is harder, but I think pick yourself and kind of put value on what you deliver, whether that's cash value and like, or I've saved the business X, or I've, you know, everything talks in numbers. So, you know, demonstrate what you've done that has delivered greater value than you're currently being paid for. And sometimes the computer might say no, because there are budgets that are held in brackets, and that's very common of corporate structures. So I yeah, I don't have a magic answer that will help anybody kind of unlock loads of extra cash from those conversations. But I think on the flip side, the the value point when you're working for yourself, I find is a real mix between what you're paying me, but also how it enables me to work. So I I think I'm probably pricing myself quite low at the moment, but that's because, and I know that because I've benchmarked myself against a lot of people that I've spoken to with similar experience. But I'm also at the moment based in Cornwall, I live by the sea, I am a long way from London, so I'm not able to go into town on a whim or at the dock of the hat. And that is as important to me as the financial side of things. So I kind of weigh up the package in the same way as you'd weigh up a package for you know a corporate career where you're like, okay, well, the salary is this, and then there's the healthcare, then there's the pension, then there's the car allowance. I'm like, okay, well, maybe my day rate isn't the highest, but A, this is a brand and a business I really want to work on. So I know I'm going to get up every morning itching to do work, not dreading it. B, they know that I need to be flexible. Um, we've got young family, so you know, that is an important factor to me right now. And the whole kind of package is the right package for me and for them. And if that package starts to, you know, if I am needed in London once a week and I have to start leaving the house at 5 a.m. and back at midnight to do London and back in a day, then my day rate would probably reflect that a lot more. So it's kind of, I think, like look at everything as the whole. And my other bit of advice is where you can, especially if you're freelanced, speak to other people. And I think when you're quite junior in freelancing experience, that's quite hard to do. But when you pitch for work, ask the person you're pitching, like, how do I compare? How does my day rate compare? You say you're a copywriter, don't be afraid to say how does my day rate compare to other copywriters you're speaking to. Because that's a really good source of truth. And like, otherwise we're all blind. My tip that always works really well, if you're feeling a bit imposter syndrome, or if you're feeling if it's not your like, unlike you, I'll kind of just say stuff and be like, that's that that's a fair question, so I'm going to ask it. But sometimes you kind of sometimes you do feel like you couldn't or shouldn't say something is pretend you're asking about your friend. So pretend it's your friend who's a freelancer or a fractional, and they've done that work. Ask on behalf of them, or like ask for the salary they deserve, as if, or just take, you know, as if you're asking for somebody else. Because the second it becomes personal, especially with money, people kind of go, day rate and every yeah. Whereas actually it's like, no, my day mate is this because I've got 20 years experience, and I do that, I do this for you, and but say it as if you're pitching for your friend's business, not yours, because suddenly you're back yourself, and yeah, yeah, yeah. So you think are fucking brilliant. So you you really champion them, but it's hard to do that. So just pretend you're saying it about your best mate and not yourself. It is the absolute hardest thing to do, I think. It totally is, whoever you are, and I think it's harder when you're working on your own or a lot more in z or the in ones right in your corner.

SPEAKER_00 41:08

There is no one there to shout about you and big yourself up other than you. And if you don't do it, you're you're literally gonna have one foot glued on the floor and you just museum circles over and over until you sh like she say, you shout about yourself as if you were shouting about your friend. So, in the spirit of that, and you know, hopefully sharing some good good experience and lessons, our next segment, Two Lies and the Truth. I think we're all guilty sometimes of asking everyone around us for advice, thinking they've got the key, the answer to you know, some shit that we obviously don't know, we missed the memo. Have you ever been given any bad advice that you just went, oh what a load of shit?

SPEAKER_01 41:42

I think the two bits of that bad advice, and they're nothing like that revolutionary. In fact, we've spoken a bit about one. One is, and in fact, I think we've probably spoken about both of them. One is you're not professional enough, which I say that's fine. I'm not here to be professional because well, I am a professional. I'm not a dick, and I'm not, you know, running around the office kind of throwing paper everywhere, you know. I'm just kind of I'm doing my job and I'm doing the best possible job I possibly can. But maybe I don't dress exactly how you expect me to, or maybe I don't write my CV in the language that you want me to, but I do a really good job, and that is that's a professional attitude. So that kind of like whole classic, this is professional and this isn't, I think, you know, like be more professional, I don't think is helpful advice because personally I buy into people based on their attitude and their, you know, what makes them different and interesting and their passions, and you can't really always see that if somebody puts a gray suit over it and kind of dulls themselves down. So that's I don't think a very helpful bit of advice. And then the other bit of advice is when people are told or believe that they've got to stay in a set a role for a certain amount of time to either get to the next level or not to look like they've given up or they've jumped. And I'm like, but you hate it, you hate that job, and you're better than that. And that job, yes, you could stay there for two years so your CB looks okay, but it's gonna erode you, it's gonna shave all the corners off what makes you amazing because you're not happy in it, you know. Like, and and actually, again, I always put myself in an employer's shoes. I'm like, if somebody came to me saying, Look, do you know what I stayed in that job for three months? I hated it because they didn't give me any support, or they didn't, you know, like actually the role was supposed to be this, but I spent all my time doing that. And what I want to do is this, and I'm like, I want that energy, I want that kind of aptitude. There was a CEO at Diaggio who used to say I'd hire for attitude over aptitude any day, and it is such a bang on statement. It just says it all, doesn't it? I don't care if you've been somewhere for five minutes, follow your guts. Like that's just the right thing for you. So move if you don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

But my friend asked me, she's like, can you? Meet me for advice or whatever about her job. And she said, Oh, I'm trying to stick it out until I get to two years. And I lit and I've never heard the two year thing. Obviously, I've heard the don't jump about too much because it makes you look like whatever. Yeah. But when she said the two year thing, I said, Well, what happens at two years? She went, Oh, well, I will have been there for two years. I was like, Yeah, yeah, but what happened? And it was out of genuine land, what's fairly not. Yeah, I was like, I don't understand what happens at the two years. And she was like, Well, well, my CV will say two years. I said, I'm not gonna lie to you, darling. I've bullshitted on every CV I've had a little bit. You can just put that you were there for two years. That's I I don't understand what you're gonna get at the end of that two years. Because even where you've got three months not even period, she's gonna have to work another three months after that.

SPEAKER_01 44:38

Don't know where I don't know where it's gonna come from, but I think it's a it's a really unfortunate thing for people to be guided by because actually happiness and like doing the right thing for you is way better.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

I just think it's such a it's such an old thing that I just don't think applies in today's workforce.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah, yeah. And now everybody's talking about portfolio careers anyway. So like it's a positive thing. But it's just it's just kind of taking those those kind of topics out that don't let people think that they have to follow any rules. And what and what was your good advice that you got given? So the one I keep coming back to is the most basic, but it stood me in really good stud is follow your gut. It's always right. If something is just kind of feeling not quite right, whether that's a potential client you're working with or speaking to, I'm just gonna say, yeah. So, you know, it's not the most kind of like wow statement piece, but I think you'll always really know whether you need to Today.

SPEAKER_00 45:38

I think there is there is something on my desk where I'm like, and you know, like you say, you keep coming back to I know the answer. I'm probably just going about it because I'm looking at the fee and I'm like, oh I could probably take that. Then at the same time, I'm like, I'm not gonna lie, I think you will be the bane of my life for this eight-week project. And I really don't know if I have the mental capacity to deal with you. And it's always very prior to I always say to people whenever I do interviews, I'm like, it it always happens that the person I speak to is like there's a specific reason why they aligned in that moment of time to sit down for an interview. So thank you, because I needed that just follow you that, and I think I know the email that I'm gonna send after this. Thanks, but no thanks, bluff. On the next one, you give me a shout, and maybe we'll find each other in in a in a good space. And I think just just in terms of in terms of advice and slightly going back a little bit to where where you mentioned, you know, having that network around you. What do you think? Because what do you think that perhaps those people in in senior roles with junior people under them, what do you think that they can do to really encourage that environment of learning by osmosis, sharing experience? And what can that junior person then how should they look at that advice that they're giving?

SPEAKER_01 46:42

I think start with really knowing somebody. So know what makes somebody tick. Learn learn about that person because if you don't know them very, very well, you're not going to be able to coach them or develop them or lead them very well. So you've got to kind of know what language appeals to them. Some people are really driven by kind of, you know, really, really structured kind of goals, and others are kind of driven by, I've got a challenge, go away and help me fix it. But you've got to understand what language and what what kind of way of engaging that person resonates best with them. And you can't do that unless you know what type of person they are. So you've got to kind of give yourself the breathing, breathing room on a relationship level to understand this person's really good at this, but it takes them a while to have confidence to kind of speak up, or this person's full of ideas, but they don't quite know how to connect it with business objectives. So they need a bit more coaching about kind of like the broader business numerical goals or whatever it might be. But I think you've just got to really understand them and understand what makes them tick. But I think that's the case of managing up, managing sideways, anything. You'd like you are better at engaging with people and motivating them if you understand them and understand where they want to get to. So, you know, cheesy question, but like, where do you want to be in five years' time? Because if actually you want to be the CEO of a company, then you may need to have a different route from this one. This one might not get you there. Or if you want to do X, then you need to start building the fact the foundations over here. Or so I think get to know them, and then it's a really difficult one to deliver on all the time, and brilliant managers do it brilliantly, and bad ones don't.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

It's such an artful.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

Commit the time. And it is, it always feels like a lot of time, and it is, but it's that it's like that phrase that employ people who are better than you because it makes your job easier. But you've got them to grow those people underneath you to enable your job to be easier, and it does take time, it doesn't happen overnight.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

So, in the spirit of hopefully giving some good advice, our final segment is what's the 411? So we've got three anonymous questions from young women. Hopefully, we'll be able to give them some tangible, candid career advice. Our first one is from a 22-year-old girl from Bristol who says, I keep changing my mind about what kind of role I want in marketing. Not sure if I should focus on brands, content, strategy, or social. How do I know which direction to choose without worrying I'm gonna cut myself off from options way too early?

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I think, I mean, if you're 22, I don't think you're going to cut yourself from anything off too early. So to the same point as you don't need to be in a role for a certain amount of time, or I think as long as you're focused and you've got this inquisitive nature, that's a really good thing to lean into. So if you want to learn all those different parts of marketing, then don't feel like you're cutting yourself off at this point in your career. I I was about 38 before I decided to go into fractional self-employed working. You you can kind of move around a lot for as long as you want. I think the main thing is just being clear about how you position yourself. As long as you can package that up and talk about how you have spent some time working on strategy because that's really important. And then you've gone into more execution on, I don't know, social and then content, and then that's fine. Just make sure your story's got a purpose and you've got you know why you're doing it. Don't do it for the sake of filling time, I suppose, is the thing. So don't be afraid of a portfolio career. I mean, like everybody's banging on about how that's that's what we're all doing now anyway. Portfolio careers, it's like the latest buzzword. So it's kind of not a problem, and you're only 22, so you've got loads of years to learn on the job, all of those different areas. And I actually think it's a really smart thing to do. You should go from quite executional roles to quite strategic roles, because it will build your whole toolkit.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Our second question, she is 26 and is currently working in-house at a brand. She says, I am usually the youngest person in the room and find it hard to speak up without feeling like I sound stupid, so can relate. How can I build credibility and get taken seriously, even though I don't have years of experience behind me yet?

SPEAKER_01 50:46

It's weird, isn't it? Age is always kind of the metric for am I allowed to do this or am I successful enough? And like we all kind of fall to it, it's really easily done. I would say a few things, like she's just talked about kind of how can I build credibility. So again, like that is music to my ears. Like if somebody's saying that they they want to learn and they've probably got loads of great ideas, to make sure that's happening in the background, whether you can get that within the current brand that you're working on, or through these other networks, communities, you know, listening to podcasts, reading books, whatever it might be, so that you've got reference points of other brands. So you might not be able to talk credibly to what you did 15 years ago because you were in school, but you could talk about how this brand went from this to this because they did X. So, like that's really credible. And people love external examples. So that automatically puts you on a really good pedestal because it shows you care enough to go and find that information, you've got that learning mentality, you kind of want to grow. So that would always impress people. But if like if it sounds kind of just actually in the room, it's hard to get a word in because that can sometimes happen as well. We all like to talk in this roll, yeah. Um, you know, see if if there's a peer or a line manager that you can speak to that can help give you a bit of a segue. Because sometimes all you need in that room when there's lots of strong voices, if your line manager knows that you're really damn good and you're full of ideas and that they can kind of be like, you know, what do you think about this? Or and and sometimes that's all it takes because you've got a segue by somebody supportive opening the room up for you to listen, and you're backed by somebody that everybody in the room respects, so it's just a bit of a kind of diversion to you, and that might just be enough to build your confidence. But back yourself again, if you've got that attitude where you've got good ideas, it's the OJO cliché, there's no bad idea. There is no bad idea, and actually what you're what idea you're sat on might be the best idea in the room. So don't worry about you know saying something stupid because we all do it.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

I think that's such a that's such a useful, tangible piece of advice. Our last question, which I think we've all probably had a moment like this. I don't hate my job, but I don't love it either. And I can't tell if that means I should stick it out or if it's a sign I should move on. How do you know when it's time to leave versus just pushing through a rough patch?

SPEAKER_01 53:03

So I my immediate reaction is gut feel. I think you know, if you've written this message to be asked on a podcast, you might know that you want to move. But it's hard, isn't it? Because actually, if you're kind of if you're not hating it and you're not loving it, you're in this like annoying no man's land because you haven't got enough impetus to kind of go, but you also don't really want to stay. So I would say just treat that as a benefit of you're happy enough, and then you can look for something that's great rather than you're so desperate to go, you're going to leave and maybe walk into the wrong thing. So it kind of affords you a bit of time to look, explore some conversations, talk to loads of people, get a feel for other better things out there for you, but you don't have that urgency of I hate it so much, I've got to go. So just sort of on the side, explore it. But I think generally speaking, in marketing careers, I certainly think like you should really love it. And that isn't the case for all jobs. And sometimes the role is the wrong role, or the client might be the wrong client, the manager might be the wrong manager, and you go through challenges. If they're blitz, that's fine. But if if your gut's telling you that it's not going to change anytime soon, there's a lot of amazing stuff out there. So just explore it and you don't need to make any commitments, or you don't even need to hand your notice in until you found something else. You know, you find you find the right thing, then you hand your notice in and you've got that confidence that that are the roles there. But if you're not desperate to go, then you can always just have loads of exploratory conversations, chat to loads of different people, explore lots of things that might float your boat and they might not. But there's nothing lost in that.

SPEAKER_00 54:40

Definitely. Chloe, honestly, thank you so much for giving such tangible advice. It's honestly it's so inspiring speaking to people who have become so senior in their careers so successful, yet still have like big sister vibes. Thank you so much for joining us and and sharing your experience.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Oh, it's been a pleasure. I've loved it. Thank you.