From YouTube to Acquisition: Creative Careers, Freelancing & Business Growth with Celia Hodgson

Celia Hodgson was making YouTube videos as a teenager. By the time she was done, she'd worked on The Crown, built her own production company Tiny Studios, and got acquired.

In this episode, Celia shares the full arc of that journey — from saying yes to opportunities before she felt ready, to managing a team, navigating cash flow, and eventually going through the emotional process of handing over something she'd built from scratch.

We talk about what it really takes to grow from freelancer to business owner, how to price yourself and negotiate with clients without underselling your work, and why showing initiative through personal passion projects is still one of the most powerful career moves you can make.

Warm, grounded and genuinely full of wisdom — this one's for any creative who's ever wondered what it would take to build something of their own.

⚡ What we cover: 

→ From YouTube teenager to production company founder and acquisition 

→ Saying yes to The Crown and what that opportunity taught her 

→ Transitioning from freelancer to business owner and managing a team 

→ Building Tiny Studios — values, brand and the road to acquisition 

→ Cash flow, funding and managing the financial health of a creative business 

→ The emotional journey of being acquired and trusting the process 

→ Pricing, contracts and negotiating with clients confidently 

→ Practical advice for freelancers ready to take on bigger responsibilities

🎙 She's Lost Control — the podcast for ambitious creatives who are done playing small. 💌 Join #TheChaosClub → www.instagram.com/sheslostcontrolpodcast/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

On today's episode of She's Lost Control, I'm joined by Celia Hodgson, founder of Tiny Studios and co-founder of Making Moves and Movies. She started making YouTube videos as a kid, but decided to skip university and go on to build and sell her own production company. We talk about client relationships, staying creative, learning to trust your gut, the financial realities of running a business, and what it really feels like to go for an acquisition. If you're a freelancer or a creative ready to back yourself, this one's for you. Let's get into it. Celia, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. Obviously, you're currently running your own business, but I really want to take us right back to the start. Did you always know that you wanted to have a creative career?

SPEAKER_02 0:42

I think in part, like I was definitely a kid who would always do arts and crafts. Obviously, you never then know that could be a career. But I think I just always loved creativity. I like doing. I also just like generally learn by doing. That point where I was trying to work out what I might want to do when you're kind of a teenager and you're a bit like, I don't know. I think I just always knew that the stuff I got passionate about was when I was actually like making something. But yeah, I do also remember I was big in the like YouTube generation. And as a 12-year-old, I made loads of YouTube videos. But I particularly remember that there was this one YouTuber, Ricky Dylan, for anyone who knows, super niche, but he basically like in one of his vlogs was like, I've just become a video editor. And I remember thinking, wild, like that is a job. That's sick. And I think that definitely then like made me think that what I was doing, I was making music videos, basically dancing with my friends, putting them on YouTube. My parents were horrified. But like I think I suddenly realized that actually that could turn into something potentially. And then I kind of stuck with that as I was at school, like studying and stuff like that. I would still be doing it on the side, but I think any time I felt like maybe adults weren't taking it seriously, I kind of had that to turn back to you to be like, there are people out there making money doing this. So hear me out.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Yeah, and that in itself, I think one, I think when we look at YouTubers now, it seems like such an obvious career path. And it's like, well, I always say to myself, I'm in the wrong industry, especially when I work with influencers, I'm definitely in the wrong industry. Like, coh, I should have pursued like trying to be an influencer. But I guess at that time, YouTube's very evergreen. You say your parents were horrified at the videos that you were putting out. Was there anyone in your space that kind of noticed that creative spark in you and noticed that passion and tried to encourage you? Or was it something that you just kind of were sort of rides in the way of yourself?

SPEAKER_02 2:30

To be fair, and also sounds like my parents were horrified because at age 12 I was like twerking or something. I really wasn't. It was like super wholesome content. But I think because it was so new, as you say, like now everyone's an influencer. Millions of young people now want to be a YouTuber when they grow up, but like that the idea of putting yourself, your face out online, especially to be fair beyond the 13, is quite bold. My parents were actually unbelievably supportive. Like I would say they were probably the people who were really championing it. They just like they just loved the creativity. I think they thought it was great. And actually, anytime I would do like play dates with my friends, the parents of my friends were always really excited when I would come over because apparently, like, compared to I don't know what kids as our age at the time were doing otherwise, but they would love it when I'd come over because we'd always make a video and they were kind of like, wow, that is so cool. So actually, I feel like quite I had quite a lot of yes people around me, but there was definitely like the cringe factor I think to get over. I remember I once saw, I'm gonna make my older brother feel really bad right now, but I once saw a text on his phone when he was like probably 13 and I was 11, and it basically said it was like to a friend, and one of his friends was like, Oh, I seen your younger sister's videos, and he went, Yeah, they're fucking weird.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

And I saw it and I was like, No, I thought I was cool. So it's like, isn't it? I've got an older brother as well, and you always wanted to seem really cool to them.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Also, knowing him and how proud he's been of me since I know that he probably was loving them, but he just couldn't say it to his friends because it was a crazy. But no, I think I was lucky that I was surrounded by people who thought it was cool. Also, like I would make these videos at school during school time, and all of the older years and stuff would want to get in them. Like it was quite like a collaborative thing, and then they got shown an assembly. I think it was just all so new that I almost had people around me being like, This is quite fun. And then when I went to my secondary school, when I went there, they I like said this is something I do, I make videos, and they were like, That's great, you can do that more. And I was the only person allowed to have a laptop at the school, which was like insane. I don't really know how I got away with that. Um, so yeah, there was a lot of like support, luckily, in that. But I think the harder point was probably when it actually came to then you're sort of 17, 18, are you actually gonna do like is this, you know, really hard to be what I'm gonna pick.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

And also you think to yourself, what do I even pick? Because I remember going back to that time. It was almost like, unless you were going to be no be a doctor where you knew you had to study certain topics, it was almost like, okay, I have this idea of a career that I want. I kind of think this could be a thing, but then what subjects do I even need to study? Because they don't actually exist in any way directly related to this career that I have in my head. What subjects did you choose? And then did you go on to uni, and then what did you study at uni?

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Yeah, so I chose, well, I haven't thought about my A levels in so long. I chose to study um art, Kelsi, history of art, geography, and Spanish, although I didn't do very well at my Spanish AS, so then I had to drop that. But you know, occasionally we get a little hola coming out these days.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Oh, good accent.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

But then, yeah, I didn't go to uni. So that was quite a big decision point in that, like, yeah, I was, I guess it's what, year 12. All my friends were looking at uni's, I was looking around them, like going, looking at art foundations. I was kind of just thinking, what could this be? I really enjoyed geography. I always thought that would be quite a fun thing to study, but I guess going back to what I was saying earlier about the doing, I was lucky at my school that they actually did educate us in quite a university-style way where they would almost like lecture, and it was kind of up to you to then like take from it and learn and go make you do the hard work. Very clever. But like I didn't love it. I in terms of just for me, I could tell that the art, for example, where it was just like really hands-on in a studio, I was getting really excited. And I had been doing already some video making at school, so I would like record if there were school productions, I would like go and record the behind the scenes or like do the sort of stuff. I don't know, I just got involved, and I think that almost I was giving myself sort of briefs, even at that stage. So I'd be like, I'm gonna make a film about this performance, and I'm gonna film in the run-up, and it's gonna do this and it's do that, or whatever it might be. I think I once made a film, we were all tasked with like raising money for charity, and I was like, I'm gonna make a video to raise money for charity. Actually, that is actually a really funny story that I have completely forgotten. But when I was 13 leaving my other school, we all were tasked with raising money for charity. And no, that's not even true. We were just tasked with like doing something with our time that was useful, and I decided to raise money for charity by making a film, and we like videoed the whole year because we were leaving, and then I sold it to all the parents. I put it on a DVD, I just remember like burning discs, like putting on a DVD, sold it to parents, but then I took half the promise because it wasn't we weren't tasked with making money for charity, so I was like, it's a bonus that I have made money for charity, but I was like, I've also spent a lot of time burning discs.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

So this is gonna take some money in the entrepreneurial spirit. No, it's the judgment free, though. You get your coin down.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

The economy was wrong. Um yeah, so basically, I was just already quite hands-on, and when I was looking around these universities, to be fair, again, kudos to my dad. Like he would come with me and he runs his own business, and he so he maybe has that slightly more like hands-on attitude. And he would be in these open days and he'd put up his hand in the QA and just say, like, my daughter already knows how to make films. Like, are you gonna further that for her? Or like, and they would sort of be a bit like, actually, it's a bit or like we'd be walking around the corridors with like a tour group, and he'd be like, quick, hold back, and then we'd like dart left and go into rooms that we weren't meant to see, and we'd go and ask people who were there, being like, What is it actually like to be on this course? And they'd be like, Oh, it's actually a bit shit, and then we're like, Thank you. That is what we needed to know. Um so yeah, they probably gave me the confidence to like, why don't you just take like you can go to uni at any point in your life. So why don't you just take a year or two, see if you can do it by like just getting straight into the working world? And if it all goes wrong, go and be a slightly older undergrad and like work that out. So that was a good step. My teachers definitely didn't understand it. I think they were like, sorry, you're what? Like, you're not gonna do a personal statement and you're not gonna apply anywhere. Like, why don't you just apply so you've got a backup? I was like, because I don't want to go.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

They were like, Don't you think it's so weird the thing the way in which like thinking back when I was applying to uni, I remember there was this like almost like air of if you don't go to uni, you're fucked. And it it was almost like the university, university degree is kind of like your safety net. Everything, and in my head, I'm like, I'm sorry, but I've done a degree and a master's. Not once have I ever been asked anything to do with my degree, none of my jobs. Maybe it's come up in conversation, but more so out of like, you're interested in history, are you? Oh, I like history too. Do you know what I mean? More so in like a passions of life way, not like what did you actually study? And uni lets me roll. I think it's more the life skills you learn than what it what it is like information-wise. But I think it it's so interesting the thought of just saying to someone now, like, yeah, just go to uni for a safety net. Whereas now I'm like, no, get as much experience as you can. That's your safety net, because then you have that, like you say, hands-on experience to know what in practicality things actually are.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

It's also insane to me that it's the that people basically just go, just go to uni sort out, like it's so expensive. You have so much debt off the back of it. Like, why are we encouraging people just to do it and just choose a degree? Like, it doesn't matter, it all works. Well, it's actually a waste of time. And I think that increasingly time is so important for young people. Like, it is impossible to get jobs these days. Like, why people just being pushed into wasting three years? As you say though, life experience key.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

I think it's actually really refreshing to hear, like, no, no, what more are you gonna give me? That's probably just a testament to why your career has taken it, how it has, because I don't think a lot of people usually tend to think like that, especially at 18 years old.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

It makes me sound incredibly big-headed, which I don't think I was at all. It was more that I was just like, I don't want to learn how to make Hollywood movies across three years and study and write essays on people who have done it before. Don't want to do that. I could go and study like, yeah, geography. And maybe make films on the side. And to be fair, anyone listening to this who is genuinely wanting to go to uni but also like wanting to get into film, you could just go and study anything and then just get really involved in filmmaking on the side, in hobbies, passion projects, short films, all the stuff like I don't think that'll hold you back. But yeah, I just wanted to do it. I was like, I just want to get, I want to make vids, get paid, get better, just sort of do, I don't know. I've all I think do just do basically, and also probably again that like I was coming from the YouTube love of creating videos as opposed to Hollywood. So in I can understand that if you love a Tarantino, you think, how would I make that? Well, I'm gonna need to learn a lot of different skills to get there. Whereas I I was looking at the kind of you know, this was the rise of also like it was like 2016 social media, uh Instagram video was just starting. Like I was just thinking, I can make that for brands. Like, I I know exactly how to do it. I've like, I can just do it. So I think that was probably what gave the confidence. Um, but I also will say I did go and live in a university city and I lived with students, and I would massively recommend it for anyone who's not thinking of going to uni because you've got to stay young.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

That's such a good point. Like, you don't have to miss out on the uni experience.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Choose your city wisely, like, go find or go also like you can go follow your friends. You don't have to be, you know, just go somewhere that is a new place to be or near your hometown, whatever works. But I just think, especially because I grew up sort of an hour out of London, that was always seen as this like centre of everything. So people, it's like, oh, you're gonna start working, you're gonna move to London. It's like, well, I'm 18, I have no friends in London, it's so expensive. Why would I go and live in London and be miserable? So yeah, that definitely helped, I think. Just and also now I've got like Unimates, which does a lot for yourself, no, just it's added to my life. Yeah, it's just added to me as a person, and that only came because I kind of made sure that I was both. What they always used to joke, they were like, because I was in Oxford, so obviously it's quite a prestigious place to be. So people are like, Are you at Oxford?

SPEAKER_01 12:39

I'd be like, No, but I was just seeing that from friends who went to Oxford Brooks, and then they'll be like, Where's where's your uni? They're like, Oxford, no way, you're in Oxford. Yeah, yeah, but Brooks. And then they'd be like, Oh, and then you just see that and I'm like, Oh god, I would hate that. Like I'd hate the head tilt of excitement to like, oh, if you didn't make it to the other one, did you like you know what that's not?

SPEAKER_02 12:59

But honestly, I feel like for all the people at Oxford, they didn't like all the hard work they had to do. So when I would say that, they'd be like, jealous? So you get to do all of this without all the work. I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

You know what? Someone actually mentioned a dis writing a dissertation to me today, and I swear to you, I got sweaty palms, and I was like, Oh god, that I could physically just chunder at the full of as history in politics, so I had to write 12,000 words, and that was just love.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Well, the idea of like kind of being actually judged or quizzed on anything, like I think if I I applied to a course the other day and it's quite competitive, and it's like only seven people get in, and I was like, I've not done something like this since my A levels, where like I have to actually like try and be approved. I'm not it's funny, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Even though you run your own business and different. So once you kind of to yourself, do you know what? Uni's not for me, I'm gonna go and pursue this and do it. What were those early roles like? And I guess, you know, because you've done the full ladder, you've done like runner, intern, freelancing, video. What were those early roles like? And what did they actually teach you about what would then go on to be the rest of your journey?

SPEAKER_02 14:05

Yeah, I think I did it all, I will say, in terms of like within the remote of like creative freelance jobs, I just kind of got straight involved and I didn't have any ego on like what job was worthy of me or not, or like I was worth, you know what I mean? I just was like, that's great, I'll do it. So I started working, I emailed loads of production companies when I at that moment that I was like, okay, I'm not gonna go to uni. And then I had this job offer basically. This helped my decision not to go to uni. I had a job offer that had come out of some work experience I'd done in um Abu Dhabi. It sounded all very grand. All my friends were like, this is just very wow, you've really landed on your feet. And classic, it was too good to be true. And they kind of ghosted me about two weeks before I was meant to start. And this is me, like September, after I'd left school in summer, and all my friends were like, I'm going off and doing this, and I'm going to my uni. And I suddenly thought, I've fucked it. So I just sent out so many emails to so many companies, and yeah, basically landed myself a kind of very part-timey job in a production company up in the countryside in Northamptonshire, which was miles from where I lived. So I had to go live with like a couple in their cottage. It was really actually just a very funny experience. But so that kind of kept me busy for I think two or three days a week. And then I I had also been at school like buying and selling clothes and selling it on Depop. So I had a bit of an income from that kind of second-hand clothes hustle. So I was doing a lot of that. And then I got into like event photography, and then also, you know, any kind of work experience that would come my way. Because I do think at that stage, you've just made this quite big decision, a decision that I found felt scary for other people than it did me. So they would be like, Oh, I must help you because you've just messed your life up. So they would kind of just be like trying to shove me these opportunities. So I kind of just took anything that people were selling my way. And I did at the time, I did a work week of work experience on The Crown season two, which was very cool. But also really affirming because that just made me realise I don't want to go into TV and film. I I didn't think I did, but I can now confirm I don't. But I think I was lucky that I had a couple of clients, clients, I mean they were clients, but you know, initially just contacts that gave me a chance and I just delivered videos for them and really built on that relationship. Like I just tried to do great work, be great to work with, really reactive, really responsive, coming up with ideas for them, just sort of really giving it everything. And some of them, well, yeah, my first ever client we still work with today at Tiny. So like that relationship has just been so nice the way it's grown, and obviously lots has changed on both sides in that time. But I think at the core of it is a really great, like honest, down-to-earth relationship between myself and the head of comms there. And I think like that was kind of probably what got me through that first couple of years was just word of mouth being passed around and just yeah, being hungry to try and get somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

No, there's a couple of things you said that I want to tap into. You say, you know, you dropped your ego and you were just trying to get as much experience as you could. And when crown experience confirms you something that you already thought, oh, I don't want to do TV and film, that's not my bag, but you went and did it anyway. What advice could you give to anyone who's perhaps starting out and they maybe already have in their head, I don't want to do film and TV, and they push away those potential opportunities. What did you get out of them and how did they serve you in good stead, even if it was something that you didn't want to do?

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I think, yeah, any opportunity is always a great one, provided you're not being surrounded by toxic people. Like if you can sniff that, get out, it's never worth it. They won't make it just get out. Um, but like other than that caveat, I would say you learn so much. Like from that experience, I was able to witness just like pros at their job in scenarios like at play and just sort of almost be this fly on the wall. Learn how to just like walk into a room, introduce myself, say something interesting about myself. You know, this is like the director of the crown would come over and be like, hello, I don't recognise you, because you know, it's season two, they've know everyone. So new face, they're like, Who are you? What are you doing? And I was like, Oh, hello, I'm and you know, that you've just like learning to do your elevator pitch. Who are you? Why are you there? What do you want to do? Because you never know in that one moment, they might go, Well, I know so and so, who knows so and so? Why don't I connect you? So it's like you kind of need to know what you're saying you want out of it if they are. So, like that kind of stuff was really interesting. But also, yeah, I did some work experience, I think, at one point where I was reading loads of scripts, which again, I know speaking to I've got friends who want to be like writers, script developers, all this stuff, that's something they would die for. My attention to CTEL is abysmal. So for me, the idea of sat reading scripts, like undeveloped scripts, basically, for days was hell. But again, like I was able to learn about just sitting down and just reading it, making good, useful notes, like witnessing off. I think that was one of the first times I was in like a larger London office, and I just like watched dynamics unfold. I just kind of, you know, you never know what you hear when someone's passing, someone's senior talking to someone else, and you like I just tried to be a bit of a sponge, even if the exact thing I was doing wasn't like what I wanted to be doing. Um, so I think you just gotta always have an open mind, and you'd literally never know who you might make like meet out of it. Um, and most, I don't think this goes for everything in life, but like for work scenarios, and again, cutting out the toxic, toxic side, like most quote unquote like bad things, whether it's rejection or whatever it might be, like, there's always normally something good out of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I think you just gotta find it, which does take time. Yeah, no, it does listen, like I feel like we're all still on that lifelong mission, but I really do think like even some of the most retorous moments of my career have given me the most invaluable lessons that I'm just like, oh, I'm actually really glad that happened, whether it was baptism of fire, whether it was like crisis comms. Like, don't get me wrong, I fucking hate crisis comms. Like, I literally headed up the after a cruise line at the start of COVID, bearing in mind we all know the cruise line that absolutely went left at the start of the pandemic. Like, all eyes were on the travel industry, all eyes were even more like on the cruise industry. And I was writing customer service like fucking letters and stuff. And I when I say I detested crisis comms, and even though I don't provide that as a PR service now to clients, like there have been odd moments where you know I've been working with a client, something for them has kicked off, and I've ended up making a bit of extra money just because I've been like, oh, do you know what I can write that press release for you? I can just do that for you. We're only working for the don't even stress about going to get someone else. Obviously, in my head, I'm going, well, because I happen to know how to do it, I've now got a little extra 500 pounds or whatever it might be, just because I have that experience, but it doesn't mean I need to sell it as a service. Like I don't advocate, you know, for clients to come to me for that. But in the moment that they've it's presented itself, I'm like, oh, don't need to go anywhere else. I'll do it for you. And I got you. Yeah. Yeah, literally, I'm like one stop shop over here. Meanwhile, in my head, I'm like, heal me now, like, uh, I'm regretting already saying yes to this. Those opportunities or those extra bits of money, especially cash flows king when you're running a business, like they will come in handy in ways that it's only until down the line that you realize the benefit.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

It's interesting what you say at one-stop shop, because I do think that was like one of the ways I kind of managed to go from being a freelancer to then like starting a production company, which I think people often find that bridge incredibly hard to even like work out how you do that. Basically, the way I kind of turned it from like freelance videographer slash photographer to then like tiny was basically these clients, these relationships that I'd already built, would just say, like, can I have, can I have like some aerial footage in that? Or can I have some emotion, like some animation in that? Me knowing full well I do not know how to do either of those things. I'd just be like, Yeah, yeah, no problem. And then I would just quickly go and find some great people who could do it and slowly build that team. And then I think it was doing that for like a year. I suddenly was like, I am a company. I'm just, you know, so almost like I think that's why it was easier to transition because it had never really been a plan of mine to start a business, was just that actually I wasn't going tomorrow. I'm going to start a company and I'm gonna like get some clients and I'm gonna do my strategy. And I'm gonna da da da da and I'm gonna all this stuff. It was more like I did, you know, they often say you're probably more likely to get a promotion almost like when you've been doing it for six months, and then you get the title comes with it. It was almost that of like, I had kind of done, I was actually running a company in very loose terms. And then the only thing that happened when I started Tiny, which is knit now five years ago, was actually that I incorporated it. Like I had actually been doing all of the things that kind of count as what running company. You know, I already had an employee as a sole trader. It was just like the only thing that happened was I rebranded and then actually incorporated it. And I think that's a much like safer way of going about it. You don't need to suddenly start talking in the third person and saying, we do this and we do that when it's just you sat at home. Like you can just build up the basic get get the money in, get the relationships there, and then that's an easier kind of transition. And you just formalize it, and that's much less scary. Like I started Tiny Studios, well, Tiny by Name Limited, actually. I started that when I already had, I literally was able to start it with money in the bank account because I just shifted all the money from my sole trader. So it was like you're starting a business in the best, healthiest position because you've got jobs already booked in, you've got cash in in bank, and like the relationships are there. So I think that probably made it much less stressful. Yeah, I don't know if I would well, I I'd like to think I would, but I have a lot of people now saying, like, would you recommend I start a company from scratch or whatever? And I'd be like, I don't know if I would have done that. Like that's very ballsy.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Like you say, oh, I'm actually already running a business. Like, yeah, I didn't need to do all that. What's the name gonna be? What are the brand I what's the brand identity? What are the colours? And it's just like just start.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Like, just start.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

And I did do that stuff, but I did that when, yeah, when we'd all when I'd sort of almost been doing it for two years already. Saying that, I do think the brand stuff is really key. Done right. The Riny actually got acquired in September. And I've had um very exciting. But I would often think, why tiny? You know, like it's actually quite rare for production companies to be bought, especially at the size that we are. And I put a lot of it down to like brand. Like, we always focused hard on how actually we are perceived. Not that is also like, yeah, in how you show up day to day and how everyone shows up. So we're meticulous about who we hire from like team to freelancers in terms of making sure that these are like great people. But also just even in how we're perceived, like from a brand perspective. I think when Tiny was started, production companies were all like black and white logos, like kit, production. And I was like, ah, it doesn't need to be that. I think you can allow, yeah, you don't need to spend thousands and thousands of pounds on making good brand, but you and your brand doesn't have to just be like a design logo, it's everything in terms of how you show up, how you speak, how your people talk about you, all that stuff. But I think I do think that was one of Tiny's strengths was actually that we were known for something. I don't really know what. I don't, you know, I will probably never really know how Tiny is described when I'm not in the room, but like clearly it was enough that then we were recommended to recommended to recommended to you know agencies who's looking, and that was something that really resonated with them. And like their brand, you know, I just don't know if that would have been the case if we were just another black and white logo. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, but you've got to have the substance as well. You've got to you've got to be good at what you do, otherwise you can't just be a pretty brand. 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

What was that moment where you realised shit, we're gonna get acquired? And what do you think it is that you did up until that point that enabled you to be in that position, apart from obviously building a brand that stood out to to the market?

SPEAKER_02 25:31

I think for me the biggest learning from that, like being more of a one woman band and doing it all yourself has been the joy of growing a team around me. We now are a team of seven and the learnings in terms of managing people. Luckily, that's something I've really enjoyed learning about. Like I've done some really specific courses about it and get I really love like getting really into people's personality types, like how best to convey information that certain type of people will receive well. And it's like sometimes just a little thing of like, I'm shit at detail. You can read this in my like personality test, but it just means you know, if you want a quick answer from me, you're much better just like condensing what you need to like, Celia, read this. What is your opinion on this? Can I have it by this time? But if you just like feed me with information without clear guideline on when you need or anything, you could be, I'll probably just put it at the bottom of my to-do list because I'll be like, that is overwhelming. But yeah, so I think learning's, yeah, I mean money, I just is always going to be a thing. Like cash flow. We had no, you know, I said I hired someone when I was freelance before, like I am led by gut, and I made, and I don't think it's a bad thing because I got here, but like I made every decision based on gut, not can I do this financially or can this does this make sense? Like we don't we didn't work in retainers. I had no sense of how much money we would have in the bank account in two months, and yet I was like, I think we need another editor, and I think we're gonna pay them this, and I would just do it, and miraculously it worked. But there was a moment, I think it was like February of like 2023, where it all got really touch and go, and I had like basically more money in my personal bank account than I did my professional one, and that was a moment where I just remember calling my accountant and being like, Have I fucked it? Like, is this this this doesn't feel good? And like we were really lucky again. Relationships, I was able to do that horrible cool to a couple of our clients because it wasn't that we weren't busy, but I was just like, that invoice that's outstanding, do you mind just paying it today? Little things like that, and then from there, we've built up the most like meticulous forecasts and cash flow and all that stuff. And I've also have never been afraid of bringing on people who are just much better than me, and I will be the first to like put my hands up at stuff I'm not good at because life, like it's just gonna be so much better to invest in people who are good, and that's probably also partly why the finance side didn't always take forefront because I would just like focus on bringing on really great people around me and work it out down the line, uh, which has again it's worked. And you learn, you know, I didn't go to uni, so I've had this amazing education over the last 10 years of actually learning from all the really talented people around me, which I love. So that's been good. What was that acquisition moment like?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

And I guess what advice, if at all, because appreciate there's loads of you know private things that go on behind the scenes around acquisitions, but I guess what advice could you give to someone who is perhaps at that point where they're like, Do you know what? I maybe want to walk down this path. What was that experience like for you? And what advice could you share on anyone who might be in that same position?

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, love that. I'm so keen to share because I think I really didn't see many at that time I didn't actually have many people to like relevant people who felt relatable, basically, to look up to to hear about it. But um, for me, I had not been thinking about selling tiny at all. So the idea when it kind of came across, when it like got, yeah, proposed, I was just in shock. And actually, this, you know, I think the agency, though Spin, we'd been acquired by Spin, they lovely guys, Alex and Max, and I'd be building a relationship with them for like two years. And I remember, I think Alex about two years ago, we had a call and he was like, We're thinking buying a production company. And I went, cool, enjoy, good luck. Bye. Obviously, I'm sure much nicer than that. But I just knew at the time, I was like, it's just not, we've got so much more we want to do. Whereas I think the difference was at this point, I still was like, We've got so much we want to do. So for me, this has not been about like I'm done with tiny, because if anyone knows me, they know I'm not done with tiny, like I am completely obsessed with what we do. But I didn't feel like I could do what we wanted to do alone. Like, I'm a solo founder, I've got an amazing team by my side, I've got a fantastic operations director called Ed who does basically run the company with me. But even so, we've got real aspirations of like literally shifting the production industry to make it a better place, like lots of things that it's like that's quite a big ask. And suddenly this agency were coming to me and saying, We really love what you're doing, and we kind of want to help build in that and like give energy towards it. And I think it was when I phrased framed it like that, I suddenly thought, actually, this could be amazing. And I did, for anyone who's, I don't know, at that moment, I think for me, I really nailed down and fortunate enough because I didn't, I was in that position where I didn't, I wasn't looking to sell. So maybe I had a little bit of bargaining power, but I really wrote down like every, every single non-negotiable to the point that like when I was going through the legal stage, my lawyer would be like, I can put in this clause. It is completely like this has no legal standing, but if it makes you sleep better at night, like I'll put it in. And I was like, Yes, please do, please put that in. We weren't being bought by I say luckily, we weren't, I don't think private equity would have looked at us, but you know, this was not a private equity purchase, like we were never really going to be ripped apart, but you do hear horror stories about it, and that's not what for us this was about. So I think that definitely helped the process was like being very, very clear on what that partnership would look like is important to Tiny as well. Like I put it out really clearly of like Tiny's a B Corp, we these values of are really important to us, you know, our community building, like all this stuff that we spend so much time on. I sort of put it out there almost to be like, I get it if you don't want it. Like this is not probably, you know, we're doing really well, but it's not like we are purely focused on the commercials. We do like, there are lots of things at play in our decision making, kind of take it or leave it. And luckily, Spin were like, Yeah, we love all that. That's why we got in touch. I was like, okay, great. But yeah, I think there was a lot of it was a wild, like nine months, many emotions up and down. I think you know, you do your own thing that there's that moment of letting go. I do probably attach far too much my personality to like running this business. So there was that slight, like, you just have to kind of detach.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

It's like an ego there of like this is my baby, I don't want to let it go.

SPEAKER_02 31:39

You just have to, you just have to trust. And also I'm always energized by like growth, change, creativity, all these things. And I was like, if I put down what like my personal aspirations are for the business and for myself, like, are these things going to be able to happen if I do this? And I was like, yeah. So now I think my expectations of what the partnership look like have actually been really, I don't mean to say I have low expectations, because it's not that I need low expectations, but I'm like, when anything happens, any conversation, I'm just like, am I learning? Yes. Like, is this an experience I wouldn't have had before? Yes. Like, am I still going to be creative? Yes. And then I'm like, fine. And I think that's helped me not be like, oh, why would they do that? Why would they say that? Or do they not care about this? Or do which also it actually hasn't those types of thoughts I haven't had to confront much because we are really aligned with SPIM. But yeah, I think that's probably helped me be more relaxed in the transition.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Can't imagine that moment of like, okay, I'm gonna give it away, I'm gonna do it, many mini tives. But I think that actually really takes us really nicely onto what our next segment, Coin Confessions. How has your perspective on money changed? And I guess what have been your biggest financial learnings from those freelance days to now, you know, you've got a payroll and you have seven people that need to be paid every month, you know. How has your experience changed the way you look at money?

SPEAKER_02 32:54

I think probably have had to grow up with it. Like, I was not someone who was good at maths at school, for example, and I know the two don't necessarily correlate because clearly I've shown signs that I was a hustler. Like I always understood I wanted to make money, I wanted to be dependent, I had all of that, but I think the actual like literal addition of it, and like how much will I have if I spend this on this and do that, like the cash flow side basically. I think I for a long time was led by like, I thought it was kind of cute to be a bit naive about it. I'd be a bit like, sorry, I'm not really sure, and it's not that cute. Or it's just gonna hold you back. And I think I've just learned to take a bit more ownership, you know, do it more carefully. I think that that moment of shit a few years ago where like I probably had just been way too flexible and optimistic about how money literally works. I think, yeah, I just had to be a bit more conscious. Saying that, like I always, always have had an understanding of what, like, what is your worth, do what you do, you know, make sure you're charging the right amount, which I think has been useful because I think that's often the biggest barrier for people is actually that they just don't feel like they can, you know, they just don't know what to charge and don't know how to like stick to it. And um, that definitely did take learning. And I think I would find myself initially, I would do quotes and I would look at the quote and I'd be like, that's quite a lot. I should reduce that. So then I would reduce it. And it's actually, I mean, I don't know if it's a gender thing, but like I did, I remember when I had one of my first guy employees and male employees, and they he looked at me and he was like, Why are you cutting it down before they've even seen it? Like, they might ask for it to be cheaper, but then you can cut it down. Why don't you just keep it, just do it? Like he was like, You're not making these costs up. Like, this is all based on time or based on resources and all this stuff. So, yeah, I think I had to stop doing that, like, I'll just put a discount on because that looks a bit scary for them. And also just the fact that, like, more often than not, the person you're sending a quote to, it's not their money. They're probably a marketing manager with the budget.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

You almost think that you're like taking money away from their like mortgaging, like kids like food or something. And it's like, sorry, it's a big business. And something that I really want to ask you, how do you change your mind to go, right? I can't charge you as a freelancer now, I have to charge you as an agency.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, it was a good learning of almost it allowed me to probably finally charge what we should be charging in terms of as soon as I had a team on, I was like, well, I've got to pay them. So like I can't be charging out at this rate. That literally makes no sense when I know that they're getting, you know, it's just like it literally doesn't add up. So I would have to have some conversations with clients where, you know, I just call them off and I'd I'd try and explain it. But like, you know, as I said, loads of those partners have been with me now for loads of the journey, and they really were excited for my growth. So they were just like, yeah. And also, I was probably so cheap before that they were like, this seems valid that you're now charging more. I mean, it's not always the case. I do remember I invoiced uh like I did a quote for someone who I'd done work for as a freelancer, and then they got back in touch six months down the line. We were now tiny studios. I sent back a quote and they called me up and they were like, It's quite a lot more. And also you're charging, they were like, You're charging VAT. I was like, that's because we're VAT registered, and they were like, Yeah, we not. And I was like, No, like we're VAT registered now, you are gonna have to pay that. So I think, but that's almost where like again the relationships made that a lot easier because I could just call them up and be like, really exciting, this new moment, like I'm starting to something else, sort of, yes, there might be slight. I mean, for example, when we hired Ed, our producer, we didn't I had never charged pre-production time before he joined. And he would when he it was like one of the quickest, easiest marks in the first week that he could do of like make an impact because he just basically was like, Well, at the moment, there's nothing accounting for all the time that I'm here. And he was probably thinking, I want to keep my job, so I need to be paid. And it was just like an easy thing. But then again, it was a really easy one to explain to clients of like, okay, your quotes have probably just suddenly got X amount more expensive because now we are actually charging for the time that we're doing ahead of a shoot day, which as many creators would know is a lot. But again, like they couldn't really argue with it because it is time and the work was there to show for it.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Totally. And I think people don't realise like once you have a team around you, you they're not only paying for Celia's knowledge and experience and time, you're also paying for the knowledge and experience of everyone else who is in the team who can benefit your creative, can benefit your campaign. Our segment two lies and the truth. Has anyone ever given you any shitty advice that you've gone, do you know what? Bullshit, whether that was in the moment or five years down the line?

SPEAKER_02 37:22

Yeah, so one I had was funnily enough, I I got a great opportunity to basically come and have a coffee with someone who ran a production company, funnily enough, in the same building that we now have our own office, which is just like a nice little full circle moment. And I just remember he said, you know, he hit hurt me out and he was like, Great, like I was very much at that time early videographer, just scrambling for anything to do. And I was like, What what do I need to do to be able to, you know, get hired at a cool production London production company like this? And he was like, You really need to niche down because at that time I was doing it all. I could ideate, I could shoot, I could edit, I could do the logistics, I could do the thing, or whatever. And he was like, That sounds very talented, but like we wouldn't want to hire you, we want an editor, we want a filmmaker, we want a creator, but you know, we don't want someone who can do it all. And obviously, I was sat there like okay, brilliant. I'll just choose one. Like, I'll just choose one.

SPEAKER_01 38:19

We won't come back in and tell you I'm only an editor.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

I said, Great. And I'm just really glad I didn't listen because I don't believe in it. I think maybe it can be quite useful in a production company to have one key role. But realistically, if it's a small one, you're gonna want to wear many hats because companies these days are needing to be really agile. But more than that, maybe there's not a company who would want you as an all-rounder, but like brands will, they will love that, and then just do it yourself. So it's almost that thing of like there wasn't, I don't think he ever said, like, oh, go and be a freelancer. It was just this thing of like, you're gonna need to niche down. And I think I just, yeah, I just didn't really know at the time that that was.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

What did they know? Because look now, your neighbours in the building.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

I know. I actually do remember I dropped them a line when we moved in. I was like, hey, on the same thread as well. I'd first like organise the coffee.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

That's such a PR girl thing to do. Be like, PR will always like as per the attack. Which basically a passag way of saying, Did you fucking read the email that I sent you three days ago that's got the answer to the question that you're asking me now?

SPEAKER_02 39:20

To be fair, luckily, luckily he was very nice to me, and I was glad he even gave me the time. And he did say he would like to see see me again, but I think they I think he's too busy being in the office. Yeah, he only was an editor. Only if you're an editor, thank you. Any other bit of crap advice? I can't remember any like particular moment that this was said to me, but I think just the concept of like, which I you know you do hear a lot of like be talented and the rest will sort itself out. I just think it's such bullshit. Like the you do need to be talented, of course, but like that what is talent, probably more hard work. And then for me, more than that, I'm just like you have to be really nice to work with, you have to be on it, diligent, kind, trustworthy, efficient. Do you know like all these things that I think no one ever really like says? And they're actually much easier to get a hold of. I think when people maybe if they're earlier in their career or maybe yeah, maybe still in education, like you're probably thinking, like, I don't have what it takes to become the next da da da da da. And it's like, well, actually, do you say you're gonna do something and then you know, do you say you're gonna meet your friend at the shops and then turn up on time? Like, great. That's like one tick. Like that will probably make you great and like be help you in your career. I don't know, all these things that people don't put enough emphasis on, but for us in particular, just like the being nice and great to work with, I think goes so far. And I think for anyone who's starting to build a team, it goes exactly the same way down as it does up. Like, I remember when I first started hiring for people, I was terrified. I had a day of interviews and I felt like I was getting interviewed because I was so desperate that they would want to work for me. And that's obviously changed now that I know that Tiny is a great place to work and hopefully people do want to work there. But even so, I'm like, I work overtime to make sure that the team are happy here or that if we ever work with people that they get good impressions, all this stuff. Not because like I'm a people please, all these things, it's not that, it's more just that I'm like, everyone has free will. What is the point in like making people's lives shit to I just I just don't get I just don't buy into like think you're not in PR.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Most people do, but we don't say it. No, I always say that if you work in behalf, you have to have some weird, like sick, masochistic nature. But I honestly think it's so refreshing what you've said because I've always asked myself, why does it feel like some people's agenda is to just make work in environment just a bit shit or like just a bit neggy? And I'm just like, sorry, I've seen you lot way more than my family, than my friends. Literally that. Anyone giving you any good advice that you still carry true today in your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_02 41:56

So I yes, and I kind of got on to earlier with the money section, so I don't want to be like too much repeating myself. But basically, when I was first quoting for my first ever freelance job, I was very lucky at my school. We had a careers advisor, which is like a wild thing to have. I was very, very lucky, but um, he basically saw the amount that I was charging. I think it was him actually. I think he was doing a he was like, You can edit this for me. And I was like, Okay, I'll charge X amount. And he I can't remember the rates, otherwise I would definitely say, but he he basically was like, no, you are worth double that and explained it to me as like because I was like, Yeah, but it won't take me very long. He was like, Yeah, but I can't do it, and I want you to do it. So to me, that is worth a lot because I need you to make this video for me and I can't do it. Like, this is how you should be charging. And I think at the time we settled on 150 quid a day, which you know, now I would say is actually with inflation stuff, I don't recommend people are charging 150 quid a day. But as an 18-year-old who has just got out doing the thing they love, 150 quid a day, I then charged a project for for I think it was like I don't know how many days, but basically I I secured my first job of 1.5k for one film. And I just remember being like, that is insane. Like, I can't believe people pay for it. But as soon as someone has, you then know that that is exactly what you're worth. And then when people would come to me and say, No, I'm thinking, I think it was 300 a day actually, because I was thinking, yeah, anyway, not regular mass, as I said earlier. Uh but it basically just like helped me price properly, and then you know you're worth, and also then it allows you the chance to say no to things, which so I run a community of female and a barney filmmakers on side making moves and movies, and it's a massive thing. We now like push back into the nearly a thousand wonderful members we have in. It's like really know what you're worth, and then like you that will allow you to be confident around saying no to jobs that you have that gut feeling probably isn't it. But even just like at the moment, obviously, it's a really hard time, I think, for freelancers. There's a lot of uncertainty and things like that. But actually, just knowing that you're not overcharging, that is what you should be. Saying your worth and people will pay it, I think can sort of help you have the conviction to just like hold your guns and be like, gotta be paid that. It's that classic one of I think someone else said of like if if in every like five quotes you don't do three times you're not having people saying you're not you're too expensive, you're not charging enough. So it's kind of like, yeah, I definitely had that where people be like, Yeah, great. You're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, ah, it's never a good sign. Because people always want to negotiate and like get it down. So if they can't even be bothered, they're like, oh god, you're definitely too cheap. We're always we'll often be flexible on the price, but I've now just got better at explaining what has changed between the two prices. So it's like, yeah, I've met your budget, but you've also lost three videos. We're now not doing it in two weeks, we're doing it in two months, like all these changes. But it's like, yeah, I can I want to make this work. But if you just drop and meet their budget just by blinking, then it's like, oh, so are your quotes all bullshit? Like, what is the reason? Do you know what I mean? But we have had some really lovely moments actually where you know a project hasn't gone ahead because of money. It's just like we can't make what they are asking work for the budget because it just from our the way we do things, the way we value people, the way we value time, all these things like sustainability, all these stuff, we can't make it work. But what's been nice is actually clients have loved tiny. So they'll say, like, completely get it. We would love to work with you one day, like when we're here. Like we're we're here now, but we want to be here. And then at times they've come back, you know, a year or two later, kind of being like, We're now, we're now at that stage. And I think that's the win-win on both sides, because it's like both is respected. Like, I will completely understand. I've I've started my own business. I know when you don't have budgets or whatever it might be, or you're going through cuts in a bigger organization, and they understand from our side that we're also trying to run a business that like isn't just a race to the bottom and has, and as you said, is a premium service where you're getting not just great quality output, but also like great quality communication along the way, or like relationships, all this stuff that like every touch point, hopefully, of people working with Tiny will be like a great service.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

For our final segment, what's the 411? We have three anonymous questions where we will be given some good advice. So we've got our first question, 24 from Manchester. She says, I'm working on small shoots and assisting on bigger ones, but I don't know how to get people to trust me with bigger creative responsibility. How do you make that jump from being helpful to being hired for your vision?

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Yeah, it's a good one because I completely understand that point of not you never want to overstep the mark. Because, like, you know, especially if you're assisting on shoots, it's quite easy to well, hopefully it would be easy on a good set environment to be able to like offer up your opinion and then maybe be rated as someone who's got opinions. But I also know that sometimes on a high stress shoot, the last thing you need is like the runner coming in with opinions, even if they're amazing, people often don't want it, which is again, I don't love working on those kind of environments, but I know the industry and I don't want to like ignore that fact. I think the main thing is like passion projects, basically don't wait for permission on the like when you're actually on the job. What can you do in your free time to show your own creative voice, your take like your own approach to things? Doesn't have to be like all single dancing, it could just be like a very shoddily executed thing of an idea you've had that whatever it might be, obviously it depends kind of what kind of creative you are. But I think use the yeah, almost think of it again as a hobby to try and what can you show from your own creativity in your free time, and then that next opportunity you can show it with the right people and sort of say, look, actually, I'd thought, what about this? Or like, what about this? And here's some examples of actually work that I've done on my own, not just assisting, because I think that can be really hard. You know, I've definitely looked at portfolios of people and I'm thinking, What have you done? Because these are some really glossy campaigns, but you could have just been like moving the kit or like filling up people's waters. I don't know. I would almost much prefer to see something that's a bit scrappy, but it's like, oh, there's a really strong idea behind that, or you've actually gone out and made it.

SPEAKER_01 47:56

Yeah. So our second question, 29 from London. I freelance in video and design and the work is steady, but it still feels unpredictable month to month. Preach. How do you create more consistency and long-term relationships without saying yes to everything?

SPEAKER_02 48:10

I think it is the relationship point. I definitely don't need to say yes to every project because actually a lot of like ad hoc projects with different people is gonna be much less valuable than like honing in on nurturing relationships with people who maybe treat you well, who pay you right. And can you then maybe if you're gonna, you know, slightly overperform at whatever time in a month, maybe you do it for those people. You like you when you know that they're actually gonna then like build on that, what can you do to show them that you're the person they should come to for everything? I think that is a good way to create consistency because it yeah, it is really it is hard to it's tricky. It depends, I guess, like slightly what role you're in. But it's interesting. We've been trying to get retainers for, well, yeah, eight years since I've been freelance and well, ten years actually, Jesus. But only this year have we really succeeded in getting retainers, which is quite interesting. I think that's not to say that it's not long-term relationships with our clients, and for most of them, they'll say they'll come to us for everything, but actually getting people to sign up to pay you X amount a month and get that what you're gonna do in return. I don't know, people just don't love committing. So I completely sympathize with that need and like want for people to just kind of stability and lockdown. I think I will say creating consistency as a freelancer can also come from maybe partner like can you be freelancer for an agency or for a production company for a design studio? Two days a week, sure, is not necessarily maybe building your own personal business or brand that maybe you really want all your focus on, but does it give you the like mental headspace financially so that then the days that you do have focused on your own thing, you're a bit more energized? Because I think I sometimes found like having only a few days that you've got to put to something, you'll probably use your time way better. I think if you have if you staring down the barrel of like five days every week and then you're like, oh, maybe I just won't do anything today because I haven't really got anything in and then you kind of lose momentum and then you might feel sad, and then you know, it all spirals. Whereas actually, don't be proud, like just go and attach yourself to a creative studio and also work around people. I think that you never know what inspirational connections might come from that. Whereas if you are a freelancer who's working at home and wondering why maybe you're not the happiest or the business isn't booming, it's like there are probably many reasons for that, and working from home can be very powerful, but I think it can also be very destructive. So if there are ways you can like just get in around other creative people, that can really help. And yeah, it can just be a contract, you know, just hey, lots of companies I think would kill for someone like two or three days a week for three months and just sign up to that. You give them a discounted rate, you know, you give them a discounted rate because they're s securing you in, and it just creates a bit of structure to your week, and then you can go and really hustle on your own thing on the other days.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Um, our final question is a 27-year-old from Glasgow who says, I love the creative side of my work, but I feel completely out of my depth when it comes to contracts, pricing, and negotiation. What advice would you give to make sure I'm not underselling myself and actually growing the opportunities I have with clients?

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Bro, same.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

I do think this is a creatives classic tale of like the story of our movie of creatives is literally under the umbrella.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

And also like creatives want to do the work. So the things that feel like they might get in between just doing the job, like the contract, the pricing, the negotiating, that is then terrifying because you're like, what if I just want to audit it for free? Like, I just want to make that. So I think here. Yeah, I just want, yeah, just keep me, just do not leave me out. Um, so I think it is a really hard thing to kind of take ownership of. But I think kind of what we were saying earlier, like, it's often not their money on the negotiating and pricing side. So, like, really try and detach that from it and like don't be ashamed to just say this is what it is. You don't need to caveat, you don't need to say up to you, apologize, it's not within your budget, all these things, like you know, you just say what it is, and it's up to them, you then react to how they react rather than trying to guess what they might do, which yeah, as I said earlier, did take me a bit of time. I also think these days, on the contract side, like AI is your best friend. I mean, for I when I started contracts, I used a template online and then I just changed it. And then actually, it was the first time I did a job with a bigger company. They were like, we're gonna have to run this through our legal team, and then the legal team came back with loads of amends. And then I used that from going forward because I was like, this has been checked by a lawyer, so this is genius. But now I think, you know, obviously always be careful of sensitive information that you put into AI, but all those things like quoting, contracts, stuff like that, AI is actually really, really, really good for just in terms of like making it make a bit more sense, explaining it in simple language. Yeah, and the other thing is contracts are your friend, they are the thing that protect you, and they protect the other person on the other side of the contract. But like my biggest fuck-ups were definitely jobs that I did without a clear contract, or where I wasn't really explicit on the quote, even what you were gonna get. So, like, you know, I would always do a proper line of like, in the most plain speak, you know, I'm going to create you a video that showcases this captured on this date for this long, to look like nothing that was too fancy, but just like really clear, so that then when they agreed to that quote, even if you don't have a contract, although please always do, if something down the line changes, you can go back to that being like, but that is what we agreed, because I once had one where I realized like because it went wrong, I then looked back and it was like Facebook messages with a friend of a friend, and it sort of said, So can you pay me 50% up front and then 50% when you're happy? When you're happy, yeah. The lawyers, the lawyers are crying there because obviously when you're happy is just like complete bullshit. What does that mean? So they were like, Yeah, well, I'm not happy, so I'm not paying. They literally said that they were like, I'm not happy, so I'm not paying. And fair enough. Luckily, it was a hundred quid project. It was very cheeky. It was so no, no, no. The whole thing was like a walking red flag. And luckily it was like very much passion project for a friend of a friend, but also I never did it again. It was never worth it. And I think just having it all really clearly laid out pay per trail, like the classic, put everything on emails, like all that stuff. I think it's the stuff that creatives like to avoid, but is the stuff that saves you. And actually, on the negotiating front, like I definitely, you know, understandable people have a short amount of time. Like, we have a lot of calls with clients where they'll say, like, what would that cost? And I'm always just like, I'll come back. I can't pluck numbers off the top of my head. Also, I can't, but like basically you should never feel the pressure to negotiate or agree to something over the phone. I think it's a really good way to like have honest conversations with people, understand what they need, all these things, but actually, if they're looking for a decision, you should always feel like you can just say, I'll just come back, even if it's I'll come back to an email in the next 10 minutes, like just buy yourself that time. I think when people feel like they have to just get to a decision on a call, and if anyone is ever, ever pressing you for an answer, even more of a reason, do not agree, like do not give them one. Um, and I think that really helps because it's just like you're you can be in control of this, and then you'd have time to go and ask a friend, go and ask AI, just think about it, write it down, whatever. Like, and you'll probably get to a better decision.

SPEAKER_01 55:23

I think that is the best piece of advice to end on. I think you're just such a breath of fresh air, you just give off such a lovely energy, and I just think it's fucking great that you know you're building tiny studios. I hope I hope it continues to grow even bigger than what it is already. And I just honestly thank you so much for being that example in the industry because I think creative production is something that young people must be ahead in. And I just think, wow, like keep fucking doing what you're doing, Mambo. Celia, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Oh, thanks for having me. Also, I just want to say thank you for creating a podcast that gives that platform for people to be listening to and look up to because I think that is epic and wasn't something that was around when I was, you know, starting out on the long old journey of a career.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

So kudos to you. Because I'm so PMS and I really will cry. Like I'm such a prayer. Thank you so, so much, and we'll really keep an eye on everything Tiny Studios has got coming in. Yay. Thanks so much.