Overcoming the Cancer Curveball with Joelle Kaufman

Episode 024 — Overcoming the Cancer Curveball with Joelle Kaufman

When cancer shows up, most people brace for the worst. In this episode of Overcoming Anything, host Anne Vryonides sits down with Joelle Kaufman, who reframes cancer as a curveball you can learn to recognize, adapt to—and ultimately crush. With equal parts candor and humor, Joelle shares how she navigated a multi-generational cancer legacy and transformed her own triple-negative breast cancer diagnosis into one of the happiest, most purposeful seasons of her life.

Joelle Kaufman is the author of Crushing the Cancer Curveball and the host of Kicking Cancer’s Ass, a podcast dedicated to helping people replace victim narratives with victory laps. Drawing on decades of lived experience and a 25-year career building technology companies in Silicon Valley, Joelle teaches a powerful “Curveball Approach” that helps people reclaim agency, build resilience, and create meaning—no matter what life throws.

Key Takeaways

· You never choose the pitch, but you always choose the swing: curveballs happen—your response is where your power lives.

· Waiting and uncertainty can be the hardest part—create practical “next steps” to reclaim control.

· “Happiness tripwires” aren’t fluff—they can change your physiology, your mindset, and your experience of treatment.

Timestamps
00:00 — Introduction: turning the cancer curveball into a catalyst

02:00 — Joelle’s mantra: “You never choose the pitch, but you always choose the swing”

05:30 — The hardest moment: telling her children the day before surgery

10:30 — Family legacy + a different relationship with cancer: “We talk about it to face it”

16:00 — The brutal reality of waiting—and how to stay out of “what if” spirals

19:30 — What felt impossible: traveling to see her son play college baseball during treatment

24:30 — The power of support systems + building “happiness tripwires”

30:00 — How to ask for help (without pity) and what not to send a cancer patient

36:00 — The turning point: PET scan clarity + treatment response

41:00 — The mindset shift: power over victimhood, rest as recharging

46:00 — Life after cancer: clarity, boundaries, purpose, and saying yes more

51:00 — Final advice: you don’t have to do this alone; strength doesn’t mean solo 

Connect with Joelle

· Website: https://joellekaufman.com
· Podcast: Kicking Cancer’s Ass (listen wherever you get your podcasts)

· Substack:  https://substack.com/@joellekaufman

Recommended Resources

· Crushing the Cancer Curveball, Joelle Kaufman https://a.co/d/iF4xoYx

· Don’t Sweat the Small Stuff, Richard Carlson   https://a.co/d/bWSOjxG 

Credits
Host: Anne Vryonides
Guest: Joelle Kaufman

Disclaimer
The content in this episode is for informational and inspirational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional legal, medical, or mental health advice.

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Transcript

Anne Vryonides 0:00

Welcome to Overcoming Anything, the podcast where we dive deep into stories of resilience, transformation, and growth. I'm your host, Ann Vryonides, and today we have an incredible guest who has overcome the cancer curve ball. Joining me today is Joelle Kaufman, who has an amazing story of perseverance. Welcome to the show. She has. Faced triple breast, negative breast cancer and turned what could have been the worst year of her life into her happiest. So before we dive in, I'd love to ask, what's one quote or mantra that keeps you going in tough times?

Joelle Kaufman 0:35

You never choose the pitch, but you always choose the swing.

Anne Vryonides 0:40

Wow, I love that.

Joelle Kaufman 0:42

Right? Because things are gonna come at you. Whether it's cancer, whether it is losing a job, whether it is a parent, a child whether it is just a friendship having trouble, curve balls happen. And the mistake we make is we think that they're not going to, or that somehow they're unfair and life doesn't care about. Fair, unfair, you're simply going to see curve balls and why not become someone who's extraordinarily good at recognizing, adapting, and crushing curve balls?

Anne Vryonides 1:20

I love it. I know so many people think that life is just supposed to be perfect. Everything's supposed to go well, and then when something happens, they're thrown off by it instead of realizing that life really is 50 50. And so by accepting and knowing that things will happen and preparing for it, they'll be ready.

Joelle Kaufman 1:39

I agree. And of course things will happen because how boring is life without the peaks and valleys. I mean like, duh, so awful. And when I say prepare, I don't think you should spend your time worrying about curve balls. I think you should spend your time making your life rich and building your own strength to be able to adapt to curveballs.

Anne Vryonides 2:02

So, have you always been a very resilient person or did you have to be initiated into your resilience?

Joelle Kaufman 2:10

I don't know how that anyone can answer that question honestly, Anne, like I had a very demanding father. So that probably increased my resilience. I was socially tone deaf as a. Child, teenager, what have you, which was very lonely and that built resilience. I was the daughter who sat at the dinner table when her parents told her that mom has cancer again, and there's gonna be chemotherapy and radiation. And yes, you're an honor student and a triple varsity athlete and a student leader, and when mom has chemo, we need you to make sure. There's dinner on the table, to which I said, of course, I'll do whatever it takes. So perhaps that's what made me resilient or maybe I just have a natural resiliency. I don't think so. I think that. If you use a metaphor for how you forge steel, or The metaphor I use when I speak to people is about the Japanese art of Kintsugi. Are you familiar with this?

Anne Vryonides 3:13

Yes.

Joelle Kaufman 3:14

Okay. For your listeners, kintsugi is the art of breaking or taking something that is broken like a clay or porcelain bowl, and reconstructing it as a bowl with veins of epoxy and gold. So that what you make is something that's stronger and beautiful, but there is no mistaking that it has been broken, and that is about the strength and beauty in brokenness and what you can create out of brokenness.

Anne Vryonides 3:43

I love that I have the utmost appreciation for broken things that are glued back together with gold, showing their innate value.

Joelle Kaufman 3:54

You take an ordinary bowl and you make it extraordinary by breaking and recreating.

Anne Vryonides 4:01

I love it. So let's start at the beginning. So what is the most difficult thing that you've ever had to overcome in your life?

Joelle Kaufman 4:08

Cancer runs in my family, and it would be easy to say, and I am very grateful that I achieved a full, pathologically complete response for my cancer, but it wasn't the most difficult thing. And. Dealing with loneliness as a teenager. You know what? Lots of people feel lonely as a teenager. Probably not the most difficult thing. I've been fired multiple times to say characteristic of the career I chose. I'm in. I chose a career where the average tenure of anyone is 18 months. So I thought it was great that I occasionally did three to five years, but I got fired. I got fired when I was seven months pregnant. That is a difficult thing to overcome. The most difficult thing was the day I got diagnosed was the day before I was supposed to have a bilateral prophylactic mastectomy and reconstruction. Lots of people knew, but most importantly, my children were home from college and they knew that I was going to have the surgery on Tuesday, and so Monday night. I get this news midday on Monday. I'm trying to figure out what's going on and I have to let a lot of people know because I don't want calls tomorrow. How's the surgery? So I had to sit, my one was in high school, my son, my two sons, and my daughters at the dining room table. And due to them knowing that I was going to make a fissure in their childhood. That they would overcome. But there's, before cancer and after cancer, there's, you don't go back to what you were like, to what you thought life was like before cancer, and I was about to cause this to my children. So telling my children about my cancer diagnosis and allowing them to see how I felt, but also still being their parent and not only their parent. I was them I was on the other side of the table exactly where they were at the same age my daughter was.

Anne Vryonides 6:01

Wow.

Joelle Kaufman 6:02

And so I also wanted to support them and, their individuals, they had three totally different responses all happening at the same time. And I consider myself an expert manager and communicator, but my own emotions, their emotions. The moment. That was definitely the most difficult thing I've had to do.

Anne Vryonides 6:23

So did they know that you had a cancer diagnosis or did they know you had the surgery

Joelle Kaufman 6:29

well, so they, we have a genetic, mutation. Increases the probability of cancer. And in my family we talk about things. So they knew that their grandmother had cancer twice before they were born. They knew when she faced it the third time.'cause she lived with us, with my father for six weeks with her 12 weeks with her surgery, initial chemotherapy, other surgery, so they saw her bladder cancer up close and personal. They knew my sister had breast cancer, before their cousins were born. When she was only 29 they knew their grandfather had died of cancer. They knew their great-grandmother, their great-grandfather, like we talked about it. So cancer wasn't a word we whispered in my house. It is also not something we cowered under, and this is a big difference. My mother is a 43 year survivor.

Anne Vryonides 7:20

Wow, that's amazing, right?

Joelle Kaufman 7:23

I say to people like, you know, she's slowing down a little, now she's 78, but God help you. You got on a tennis court or a golf course with her, she competes. She is there to fight and win. And this is a happy, wonderful, beautiful human and she's living and thriving. My sister, she was diagnosed when she was 29. After diagnosis and treatment had two kids, has a beautiful life. So our experience of cancer, and yes there are people who died and that's also awful. We are luckier that they were the older people as opposed to the younger people. And I wish nobody would die of cancer cause it's not, it's awful. But we know people die. And so in my family. We talk about these things, not to fear them, but to face them.

Anne Vryonides 8:15

I love that. You have the right mindset that you're communicating to your kids that even though people can die from cancer, our family, we're survivors. We make it. We get through this.

Joelle Kaufman 8:27

And the reasons a phenomenal medical care. So always be where you have access to medical care if you can. And we are lucky we can. Number two, early detection. Know your body, insist on tests and scans. If you have a doctor who isn't aligned with aggressive screening for you, find a new doctor because those things are what saved lives. We are not in a place yet where we know how to prevent this disease, so we must live healthy. So that we are reducing the attractiveness of our body to it. We are strong enough to endure whatever treatment is required and it is detected as early as possible so that we have as many options on the table that's having an approach to the cancer curve ball. And I write about that. I wrote about that in my book, crushing the Cancer Curve Ball in the Parts on Prevention and Detection.

Anne Vryonides 9:29

So was, prevention and detection really part of your mom's journey and that you learned from her that she was detected early, that's why she was able to become a 43-year-old survivor?

Joelle Kaufman 9:41

Yeah, I mean, my mother was a child of the fifties and sixties, so before she got pregnant with me, she did smoke. But other than that, and she stopped when she got pregnant with me. Other than that, she had zero risk factors, no family history. She was in great shape. She was young and she found it herself in the shower and there was no one, I mean, still today, you wouldn't screen a 36-year-old with no family history. We didn't know about the gene, but again, she had no family history, no known history at all of breast cancer, so early detection. And then she was very aggressive. She said to her surgeons, I am not looking for a five-year survival. I am looking for a 55 year survival. I am looking to be here for my girls, for their graduations, for their weddings, for their children. That's what I'm looking for. Do your worst. I can handle it. That's the model.

Anne Vryonides 10:35

Wow. I got goosebumps when you said that. I love that. I love that strength, that courage and that determination, oh

Joelle Kaufman 10:43

yeah. And there's a lot of research, Anne, that mothers with young children actually do, have better outcomes. There is something about, look, some people don't have luck. Some people's cancers don't respond. That's not their fault. I wanna be very clear. There is no blaming the patient in this universe and those who have the ability to focus on what life they want, that is a source of strength.

Anne Vryonides 11:10

I agree a hundred percent. I'm an energy healer and a medical intuitive, and I believe that you can clear it out of your body and that your mind and neuroplasticity has such an impact on our body and how we live and how we process everything. So, going back to your story, was there a specific moment after. When you were telling your children, about your surgery the next day when you just felt like everything just, felt impossible and how did you make it through that challenging moment?

Joelle Kaufman 11:41

So let me discuss what's really challenging and then the moment that felt impossible. What's challenging and is when you hear cancer. Most of us wanna go very fast, get it out, make it go away. Make it stop. And there's actually a great deal of waiting and uncertainty where you're waiting for the results of the biopsy. Then you get the results of the biopsy, and you are waiting for an appointment with either a surgeon or an oncologist, and you're waiting. And in the waiting you can stew in. What if. What if I caught it earlier, my what if I'd had the prophylactic surgery a year earlier? This tumor, we know because I was scanned every six months. We know it didn't exist six months earlier. In the waiting, the what ifs can take control and that is where having an approach, having practicing the ability to talk to yourself and say. But I don't have a time machine and I don't know what if, and this is where I am now and I know what the next step is. Now. I think it's important for people to know, with the exception of the of Leukemia Lymphoma, the vast majority of solid tumors. Doctors will say, you have a few weeks that make no difference about when you start treatment and what they do in that time, the detailed pathology and history, they are actually starting to match the right drug protocol or the right radiation or the right surgery to your specific tumor. Let me see if I can blow your mind, Ann.

Anne Vryonides 13:21

Please do

Joelle Kaufman 13:21

So breast cancer. There are 120 varieties of breast cancer and they are all treated differently.

Anne Vryonides 13:30

Wow. I did not know that. 120 types of breast cancer.

Joelle Kaufman 13:34

I did the math because there are two protein marker to one protein marker and two hormone markers that can be positive or negative. And then there is. Ductal cancer, lobular cancer, inflammatory cancer. There, there's other, there's just types. It's complex. Now. There are probably many different varieties of every type of cancer because our bodies are complex. Then we add in that everyone's body is its own ecosystem, so we have your unique pathology and your unique ecosystem, and what we're trying to do. With the doctors and all the integrated oncology providers, natural healers, what all of these integrated care providers are trying to do is minimize the toxicity. So that you have the highest probability of both survival and no long-term side effects while maximizing the efficacy. And that waiting is where they're pulling together the data to start that journey. But you're the patient. They do some imaging, they take a blood draw, and then you wait. You can wait for weeks. You're just waiting. That is so challenging. I'm a person of action. It is so hard. To wait and to have nothing to do. So I actually created things to do. I made a treatment calendar. I started working with my best friend on the food train and the driving train. And when was my husband gonna be traveling? That I needed somebody else to stay in the house. So my daughter wasn't at the first line. And when was I gonna travel?'cause I traveled during my treatment. And how could I do that? And I just found things to do. In order to exert some control over cancer. Now, what felt impossible? If you haven't guessed, I don't really roll with the word impossible, like I'm like do or don't do very Yoda yoga, right? Like as Yoda would say, there is only do or not do. There is no try. So what felt impossible initially was. I was diagnosed in early January and my middle boy was starting his freshman season on his collegiate baseball team in New York. I live in California. Okay. And before I had conversations with my team, it felt like it was gonna be impossible for me to go and see him play anytime in the season. Wow.'cause I was having chemo and should I be on an airplane? And what if I had terrible side effects or you know, when would I have surgery and, you know, my first priority was kill the cancer, but I didn't want cancer to, to steal anything more from my life than my breasts. So that felt really impossible. But as I said, I don't really roll with impossible. I. I, when I met with my oncologist, I said, I know this sounds trivial and crazy. It's neither trivial or crazy. I know that now,

Anne Vryonides 16:35

right?

Joelle Kaufman 16:35

In the face of we're fighting triple negative, very aggressive breast cancer, is there a way I could go to Florida or New York? What do you think about March or April? And yeah, I'm like, this is sounds ridiculous. She looked at me and said, I see no reason why not. I said, really?

Anne Vryonides 16:52

Wow.

Joelle Kaufman 16:53

I said, what about my immune system? She said, wear a mask, but airplanes are pretty safe. And stay in an Airbnb and don't miss a treatment. You have treatment every week, so don't miss one, but go with God. You might not feel great on the plane, depending on what's going on, but I think that sounds great. You should go.

Anne Vryonides 17:13

What an empowering doctor.

Joelle Kaufman 17:14

Oh. So I love

Anne Vryonides 17:15

that mindset.

Joelle Kaufman 17:16

So great. So great. And I did go twice. I went to Florida for four days. I got to see his very first game.

Anne Vryonides 17:24

Oh, that's amazing.

Joelle Kaufman 17:25

Yeah. And then we did go to New York once and I saw him play on his home field. And I have to tell you, Anne, it was so important to me to have that mini milestone to look forward to. Through treatment, both of them. And it turned out it was so important to him because even though we were talking and we could do FaceTime and he knew how I was doing or telling him he needed to see me, and because he was in season, there was no way for him to visit. So us being in Florida together, he was able to see for himself to hold me himself and say, mom's got this. It's okay.

Anne Vryonides 18:04

Wow that's an amazing story. So your strength was what he needed. And so by being there for him, that made a huge difference for you.

Joelle Kaufman 18:14

Well, and being, I actually loved being there too. I mean, how much fun it is to watch your kid do something they love.

Anne Vryonides 18:20

Yes, absolutely. So who was there to support you during this time?

Joelle Kaufman 18:26

Oh my goodness. So we can start. If you think of this in concentric circles. The center circle, obviously my husband Neil was fantastic. My best friend Jessica, amazing. My sister who lives only 15 miles away. Unbelievable. My mother and father were great. My sister-in-law was here when I was diagnosed. Awesome. My other sister-in-law flew to be with me one of the times. Neil traveled, my best friend from college, flew across country to be with me, a friend from business school that I wasn't close with until I had cancer. Wow. Flew for 10 days to be with me.

Anne Vryonides 19:02

Wow.

Joelle Kaufman 19:03

And then you have the next circle, which are the friends who sent food or drove or just hung out with me or, sent cards or texts or emails that made me laugh. I have this concept I talk about in the book of trapping happiness, creating happiness, trip wires that are inevitable, moments that happen that make you smile. And it turns out I started lining my whole life with them. My infusion days were a parade of happiness tripwires. They were just short of a party. It was amazing, and the result was, I smiled like you just smiled, so you feel better. You actually get focused from the hormones. You know you have dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin. But the third thing you get is each one of those happiness moments is releasing a little burst of immune system booster. So it's basically every time you trip over happiness, it's booster. So here's my second mind blowing thing for you, and some of this may be luck. I did not change my diet other than I didn't eat raw stuff. So no sushi I didn't drink, but I'm not a big drinker. I continued exercising the same way I've exercised for 17 years. So wi lifting weights, doing the peloton, going for walks, but no change. I did my super greens or athletic greens, great. No change. But I lined my life with happiness tripwires. That was a change. My immune system by my 12th cycle of chemo was so good that my doctor, the same one who sent me on my travels, looked at me and said, I would never believe you're a chemo patient, let alone 12 cycles with your labs.

Anne Vryonides 20:45

Wow. I got goosebumps when you said that.

Joelle Kaufman 20:48

Uhhuh, that's the power of happiness. Tripwires and Anne, you can give one to somebody anytime they're free. You just do a text that says, Anne, I so miss you. I just wanna tell you, I love you.

Anne Vryonides 21:01

Wow, it's so easy, so simple, so free and how we all could do that for our friends and family, regardless of whether they have a cancer curve ball.

Joelle Kaufman 21:10

Yeah, do it today. If you're listening, we need to do it. Pause. Pause the podcast. Send a happiness trip wire to somebody right now. You will feel better. They will feel better, and it's savor it. Let it wash over you. Really ingest it in, let those hormones release in your body and feel how good it feels.

Anne Vryonides 21:32

Ooh, I felt that. You are very lucky to have such an amazing support system. So if one of our listeners is going through this right now, and maybe they don't have the support system that you did, and they have to work a little bit harder to create those trip wires, do you have any advice for them on how they can find this community and this support?

Joelle Kaufman 21:53

So let me start with, the sorority you never wanna join is the sorority of cancer patients and survivors. But man, they're great gals and guys, they're great people. So I guarantee that there is support groups or support organizations through the cancer center that's treating you and in your community through your religious affiliation if you have one. The other thing, and I was very open. About my cancer. I told lots of people, I've written a book, I have a podcast about it, so I don't hide from cancer. Now, some people are very afraid that they'll lose their job, that people will treat them differently, and, that can happen. So we all have to make our own choice on how open we want to be. But when you share what's happening in your life, people will amaze you. I wanna tell you a story of a woman that's, it's in the book. She's a friend of mine and, she's a single mom and she was diagnosed with stage three lobular breast cancer. And that's a pretty serious diagnosis. Yeah. And her friend came over and they're working out how they're gonna do this, and she said, my parents are a little bit older. My brothers, they live far away. What's what happens to my kids if something happens to me? And they're like, we'll figure this out. Let's not think that way. But she told people what was going on and she told her kids school. And a couple in the community reached out to her and they said, we know your kids. And she knew how, for confidentiality reasons, I'm not gonna explain the relationship, but they weren't close, but they knew her kids well. They said, we've raised our children and if God forbid anything should happen to you, would you do us the honor? Of letting us keep your children in the community and raise yours.

Anne Vryonides 23:36

Wow. Wow.

Joelle Kaufman 23:38

Out of the woodwork, right? So that's,

Anne Vryonides 23:42

that's higher power. That is God right there.

Joelle Kaufman 23:44

That is God's hand. And for her, that was such a reliever of stress, that her children would be cared for. Her children had a future in the home. She had chosen for them. Wow. And she's still alive and her kids are growing up with her as their parents, which is great. Yes, it's wonderful, but when you share your vulnerability, when you share your need, people like to help. So you are not that alone. It's a question of are you willing to let people help you? And the story of, I don't wanna Be a Burden, you're not forcing people to help you. Letting them know what you need and they are choosing because they care about you and because it makes them feel good and that's okay. So I think that's what I wanna say about support. There are some great organizations here in the Bay Area. I spoke at the annual Fundraiser for Cancer Care Point. They are. They have support groups that bring people together. Some of them are virtual, so you don't even have to be in the Bay Area if that doesn't work for you. But there are, even the American Cancer Society helps set those up virtually so you are not alone.

Anne Vryonides 24:57

So if we have a listener who might be. What you wanna call on the proverbial cancer closet. And let's say they're keeping it to themselves and they're like, I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I don't want people to look at me differently or see me as weak. And they have that mindset. How, what advice would you have for them?

Joelle Kaufman 25:17

Okay. I am pathologically allergic to pity. I would tell people I have cancer and I'm the least traumatized person you've ever met to say those words, right? I've had 40 plus years to prepare myself for that. So I have cancer. I'm not going to make you feel better about my cancer. However, I'm not gonna die. I'm sure of that. And here's what I need. If you'd like to help, great. If you don't, great, I'm okay. Like help can be sending me a text that's like my needs are not big. So one you can guide people. Like when I told I had to send an email because all these people knew I was having surgery, so I sent this email, I put the email in the book so people can copy it. Oh, that's great. Email was, yeah, the BA email was basically, the universe flipped me the bird. The day before my surgery, I was diagnosed with stage two triple negative breast cancer. Yes, I know it's aggressive. Yes I know. No, I'm not having surgery. No, I don't know what comes next. And the thing I need most are referrals to an oncologist. And the thing I never want are links from the internet or stories about other people I have. A built in support group. cause I have my mother and my sister, and if I have a need to talk to somebody, I assure you I will ask. And people not only respected that they thanked me for it. Wow. Because I told them, we don't know what to do when someone says we have cancer. You're like, oh no. Okay, that's fair. Oh no, that's terrible. But after that. What do I do here? I don't wanna say the wrong thing. I, how bad is it? I don't wanna ask that. Are you in pain? I don't wanna know. I don't wanna ask. I don't wanna be uncomfortable. So tell them what's going on and tell them what you need. And people thank you for the clarity.

Anne Vryonides 27:05

That's amazing. I've never heard of anyone doing that, so that's great advice.

Joelle Kaufman 27:10

Well, you're welcome. I told my kids, tell everybody because you don't know where support's going to come from. We don't all walk around with badges. I'm the child of a cancer patient. I'm the sister of a cancer patient. I'm a ca Like, we don't broadcast those things. But when you say, I'm going through this, people pop up and say, Hey, I've been there. What do you need? Yeah.'cause when you're in the know. You either say, what do you need? Or, I know you're gonna need meals, rides, care for your dog, care for your kids, whatever it is. If there is no signup sheet, can I be the person who sets that up for you? What a gift.

Anne Vryonides 27:48

Oh yes. If every cancer patient could just have that one person step up in their life to say, I'll be the point person. I'll coordinate your care to help you and support you.

Joelle Kaufman 27:59

And it doesn't have to be one person, Anne. It can actually be multiple people, so they're not carrying a heavy load.

Anne Vryonides 28:05

I love that. Great advice. So what was the turning point when you realized that you were definitely getting through this cancer? That you were surviving, you were living through this?

Joelle Kaufman 28:16

Well, I, I looked at my mother and it was like, okay, the actual turning point was in the oncology appointment. They had me do a PET scan beforehand. Where they're looking for, is there any metastas. And there are people one of the women who a phenomenal podcast episode and she's in the book, Cindy, they found a lump, they were gonna do a mastectomy and then they did the PET scan and said, whoa. cause it was everywhere. Wow. So I'm sitting there and my doctors have a scan of the PET scan and I'm. Waiting because if it's everywhere, that's not my mother and sister's journey. And if it's localized, I'm gonna live. It's binary. And by the way, I've since learned, if it's everywhere, that also can mean you're gonna live.'cause we have so many ways to treat metastatic breast cancer now that people's lives are extended with quality and it's really incredible. But I didn't wanna be in that particular part of the sorority. So that was the moment when they looked at it and they said, pet scan's clear. It's localized.

Anne Vryonides 29:19

Wow.

Joelle Kaufman 29:20

Okay. Hit me with your best shot. Let's go. Can we start tomorrow? From my type of tumor, and again, this is a 120 varieties of breast cancer, so this is not medical advice for anybody. Unless your name is Joel Kaufman and you had my tumor. So, for me, the highest probability of a great response at the lowest toxicity was to do neoadjuvant chemotherapy, which meant I got chemotherapy before surgery, and as they're administering chemotherapy. They are examining or using an MRI to scan the tumor to see how it is responding. And what that tells the doctors is this course of treatment working? Do we need to make a change? Can we avoid more toxic treatment? So for me, the tumor had fully responded and melted away by my 11th chemotherapy of the least toxic combination. What a blessing.

Anne Vryonides 30:20

Wow. So amazing.

Joelle Kaufman 30:21

So amazing. And then I did have the 12th because I have this gene. We don't mess around. With this, they did an MRI, they did a fine needle aspiration. They said, there is no sign of cancer. We will forego the more toxic chemotherapy. And again, I had this immune system that was rocking and rolling. Three weeks later I was in surgery. So I was diagnosed on January 9th, I was cancer free and with new boobs. By May 4th, so that was fast.

Anne Vryonides 30:51

That's amazing.

Joelle Kaufman 30:52

Because mine was triple negative, I don't have to take hormone suppressing drugs following surgery. Now, the other thing I did have. In my treatment protocol was I had an immunotherapy that I took. I was, it was infused every three weeks for a year. Um, and that is actually to help my body should another breast cancer, like mine show up for my immune system to detect and destroy.

Anne Vryonides 31:16

Almost like a preventative maintenance?

Joelle Kaufman 31:18

Yes.

Anne Vryonides 31:18

Is that normal protocol that doctors recommend and is that covered care for most people?

Joelle Kaufman 31:24

So if you have my pathology and my stage, it is covered, approved care. If you don't have my pathology or it's not at my stage, it may not be. So these are decisions best made in consultation with your doctors.

Anne Vryonides 31:37

So looking back, was there a single decision or action that made the biggest difference in your care?

Joelle Kaufman 31:44

Sure, and this brings me back to, I didn't fully answer the question of, with the person afraid that they'll be treated differently or seen as weak. So the single biggest difference was I chose to embrace power. Over victimization. I exert control over this. I have choice. And frankly, even if you're feeling lousy and some days, like, I remember when I realized that running a half mile was actually making me feel winded. Now, Jessica, not my best friend, a woman who's in the book and on the podcast. She ran a half marathon during chemo. So everybody's different. I lifted heavy weights, but I found it was harder to breathe and in that moment you can feel weak. But instead I said, look at what my body is doing. My body is withstanding a full assault of poison, of cutting. I didn't have to do radiology radiation, but of burning. It is going to survive and thrive. I am proud of what my body is doing. I'm going to support my body in doing it as well as it can, and when my body needs to rest, that's not weakness. That's recharging.

Anne Vryonides 32:58

That's a powerful mindset shift. So do you think that part of the reason that you were so successful in fighting off this cancer was because you were healthy, you had this routine where you were exercising, you did your best to eat, right? You didn't have a lot of alcohol and your body had a strong immune system going in. So it was, it had this, the right environment to fight it.

Joelle Kaufman 33:22

Absolutely. Since we can't prevent cancer. We wanna detect it early and be as strong as we possibly can in the event that it shows up because your treatment goes better, exercising, getting your heart rate, really going for 30 minutes, five days a week, gives you an 18% better outcome from treatment. Wow. That's scientifically proven. They've done the studies in Canada and Australia. Who doesn't want an 18% better? Possibility of a successful treatment. That's, and exercising. You can do it with another person, so it can be social, right? You usually feel good when you move your body, this is, and it, it releases endorphins, which make you a little happier.

Anne Vryonides 33:57

a trip wire.

Joelle Kaufman 33:57

So I do think, and I've, this is part of why my family talks about cancer frequently, is the choices you make about how you care for your body will directly impact how your body cares for you.

Anne Vryonides 34:07

That's a good quote. Very good quote. Okay. From, maybe from your book. So if someone has a cancer diagnosis right now and is going through care, what advice would, could you share with them because you have this powerful mindset. So what would be like the three or four tips that you would share with them on how to retrain your brain? To take control of your care to decide that you were gonna live and that you were gonna survive this.

Joelle Kaufman 34:35

So first off, recognize that you can rewrite the story so you can partner with your care team. You can mold cancer often to fit your life rather than making your life fit the cancer and God willing, this is just a season, not your whole story. So don't make it your whole story. Don't make it your whole identity. You can do this because you have no choice. You must. So you will, and you'll do it one day at a time. And some days will be good and some days won't be good. And on the days that aren't good, just have a plan for how you can be kind to yourself, maybe trip over a little bit of happiness.

Anne Vryonides 35:08

what life lessons did this experience teach you?

Joelle Kaufman 35:12

Cancer's a filter. When you face cancer, life becomes much clearer. Who matters, who doesn't, what you wanna spend your time on what you don't because you become. Acutely aware for a moment of mortality. And look, we're all mortal, but usually it doesn't like smack you in the face. But with cancer it, it basically, punches you in the nose and says, Hey, wake up.

Anne Vryonides 35:31

Right?

Joelle Kaufman 35:31

What matters? And you want to live a life of things that matter to you, right? So for me. I knew I loved developing executives. It's, I've got lots of people who work for me that have risen to executives. I love it. So I said, that's really what I wanna spend my professional time on. I also have 40 plus years of facing cancer, and my whole medical team said my approach was novel, refreshing, and valuable. So I wanted to share. With as many people as possible, because everyone knows, literally everyone I talk to who's gone through cancer on the other side says, I would never choose cancer, but it made my life better. Like, whoa. Wow. And I was amazed by what my body could do and endure. Yes, there can be pain and discomfort and unpleasantry. It's the same thing with childbirth, but we still do it.

Anne Vryonides 36:20

So true. So true.

Joelle Kaufman 36:22

So like we don't choose cancer, but cancer happens and we get through it and unfortunately, even if we don't get through it, and there are too many, even though it's a small percentage, but there are too many that don't. Cancer gives us a window of time to say what we wanna say, to do what we want to do, provided our health can do it. And that is also a gift to have a moment to say everything and to hear everything. I just say, say everything all the time, because why not?

Anne Vryonides 36:49

Wow. That's definitely great advice that it does. It gives you that window where you, you have those emotions. You have that love that you wanna share.

Joelle Kaufman 36:59

Mm-hmm.

Anne Vryonides 37:00

I love that.

Joelle Kaufman 37:00

Absolutely. Love shared multiplies.

Anne Vryonides 37:02

So how has your life changed for the better because you were diagnosed with cancer?

Joelle Kaufman 37:07

I have new friends that I didn't have before who are, ride or die. They're great. I say yes more, you know, to whether it's travel or experiences to being with people that I didn't always choose to be with, just because I just didn't go. I say yes. So I'm more fully engaged in my life. I, wrote a book. I always wanted to write a book. I wrote a book. I published a book, my goodness, and I hope everybody buys the book, crushing the Cancer Curve Ball. And then I wanted to do a podcast. So I did a podcast kicking Cancer's ass. And I know from people who have read the book, who've heard me speak, who have done the podcast or have been clients, my support, my perspective. Is giving them strength, lifting them up and changing lives. And that is the definition to me of a life well lived.

Anne Vryonides 37:56

I can see that. You seem so happy, you're so radiant. It's almost like you have this new lease on life.

Joelle Kaufman 38:02

I do. I do. And new boob.

Anne Vryonides 38:03

You know, hey, as long as the husband loves him, you're good. Right?

Joelle Kaufman 38:05

Never sag. They literally will never sag their gravity defying boobs.

Anne Vryonides 38:09

So funny. If anyone is going through, a cancer challenge right now any final advice that you would give them?

Joelle Kaufman 38:17

Um, I would go to joelle kaufman.com or cancer curveball slugger dot. substack.com. We'll put those hopefully in your show notes.

Anne Vryonides 38:25

Definitely.

Joelle Kaufman 38:26

There's plenty of free resources available through me and through lots of other organizations. Cancer's not uncommon, even if you have an uncommon cancer, there are communities out there. Maybe the best thing about. Social media is, it's created a way for communities that are sharing common health challenges to support each other. And you do not have to be alone. And being strong doesn't mean being solo.

Anne Vryonides 38:50

Yes. Yes. I love that. And so what is one thing you learned about yourself going through this whole experience of starting a podcast and overcoming and empowering other people?

Joelle Kaufman 39:03

Yeah. I learned that I could transform fear into determination. I, I, you know, I, I have a lot of successes, but I've was fearful of people being critical, of people of failing. You know what? If I do a podcast and no one listens to it. I'm not Mel Robbins. You know, even Mel Robbins started small. Like we all, everything starts small. We all start somewhere, right? You know, determination, appreciating small victories. These are things I learned and they were part of my cancer journey. Many milestones that we could celebrate along the way. Happiness, tripwires fierce determination. That which worked for cancer works for my life.

Anne Vryonides 39:39

That's, yeah, that you bring up a good point. I love milestones and celebrating those.'cause sometimes we have this end goal and we just wanna, oh, well, when I reach that big goal, or I make a million dollars, I'll celebrate. But sometimes you need to celebrate along the way so you stay inspired and it's those little steps that get you to the big goal. Absolutely. Excellent. Absolutely awesome. So is there a book that helped you other than yours, um, on your journey that you could recommend to our listeners?

Joelle Kaufman 40:06

I mean there's, don't sweat the small stuff. There is there's a number of books about being happier. It's all based in cognitive behavioral therapy. But the main point was your. The way you talk to yourself and the how much weight you give, the things you, the thoughts that happen to pass through your head is a source of either anguish or power, and you actually choose which one. Yeah.

Anne Vryonides 40:32

Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. You've been a very inspiring guest. I will put your bio, your links and everything down below, and thank you so much for being on the podcast, overcoming Anything.

Joelle Kaufman 40:43

Thank you for having me.

Anne Vryonides 40:44

Thank you.