026: Passion Isn't the Problem: Building Sustainable Equine Careers

In this episode of The Veterinary Culture Lab, Andi and Josh explore what happens when a lifelong passion becomes a profession—and why loving horses alone is not enough to sustain a career in equine medicine.

Grounded in recent international research on employee engagement and work satisfaction in equine veterinary professionals, this conversation examines the workplace factors that help passionate people remain engaged, fulfilled, and committed to the profession. The study identifies four key drivers of engagement: pride and purpose, company culture and leadership, working conditions and compensation, and team culture and learning opportunities.

From stories about growing up as "horse kids" to conversations about identity, autonomy, mentorship, and meaningful work, Andi and Josh explore why equine medicine is both uniquely rewarding and uniquely vulnerable to sustainability challenges. Together, they unpack practical culture renovation strategies that help leaders create workplaces where passionate professionals can continue doing the work they love—without losing themselves in the process.

You will hear:

• Why equine veterinary professionals often identify as "horse kids" long before becoming veterinary professionals
• What new international research reveals about engagement and work satisfaction in equine medicine
• The four workplace factors that most strongly influence sustainable equine careers
• Why autonomy, mentorship, and learning opportunities matter more than many leaders realize
• How aligning personal values with organizational values can strengthen engagement
• Practical culture renovation ideas that support meaningful, sustainable careers for the entire veterinary team

This episode is an invitation to rethink sustainability—not as asking passionate people to care less, but as intentionally creating cultures that allow them to keep caring for the work, their patients, and their own horses for years to come.

Resource Links: 

Episode Article

Title: Engage and Enjoy: Investigating Predictors of Employee Engagement and Work Satisfaction in Equine Veterinary Professionals 

Authors: Yteke Elte, Kate Acton, Jessica Martin, Mirjam Nielen, René van Weeren, & Inga Wolframm 

DOI:10.3389/fvets.2023.1036388 

The Flourish Academy
Salt Creek VH - Daycare Solution AVMA article 
TVCL Episode 18 - Work ethic isn't dead

Florida Woman This Week - Horse DUI 

What Do You Think? Reach out to us and let us know at Info@flourish.vet

Your Hosts:
Andi Davison LVT, CAPP, APPC 

Josh Vaisman MAPPCP, CCFP

At Flourish Veterinary Consulting we renovate veterinary cultures. We diagnose what’s working, blueprint what’s next, and train every team member - blending positive psychology with real-world experience - so thriving becomes the norm, not the myth. 

Timestamps:

00:00 Welcome and weather

06:02 Horse People Identity

11:53 Passion And Exploitation

13:54 Study Overview And Scope

17:45 Four Engagement Drivers

23:17 Culture Keeps People

24:52 The Dark Side of Calling

27:38 Systems That Support Boundaries

30:30 Autonomy Versus Micromanagement

33:35 Career Stages and Balance

37:06 Culture Renovation Playbook

41:09 Values Alignment in Practice

44:58 Wrap Up and Florida Headline

 Headed to WVC Nashville this August? We'd LOVE to meet you! Andi will be speaking August 16 & 17, and Josh will be there too. Stop by a session and introduce yourself - we always love meeting members of the Veterinary Culture Lab community. Grab your boots, bring your curiosity, and come say hello! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Veterinary Culture Lab, where science meets real-world application. I'm Andy Davison.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

And I'm Josh Weisman. Together, we'll show you an evidence-based blueprint for renovating culture in your veterinary team. One episode at a time.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Most equine veterinary professionals were force kids long before they became veterinary professionals. Today we're exploring what happens when a lifelong passion becomes a career and what research says it takes to make that career sustainable. Hello, hello. Happy Thursday. It's Thursday, right?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

It is Thursday. Yeah, it is Thursday. Andy, I I want to ask you a qu a couple questions if you don't mind. Um, it is the end of May. Tell me, tell me what the end of May is like in uh north central Florida, like weather-wise.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Um, it is we have full on moved into the afternoon monsoon season.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

So for a minute it was not raining and we were not getting any rain. And we have actually been experiencing a drought for the better part of the year. Now, to be clear, we still are in a drought. We still have a huge deficit as far as like rain that we need to get back up to where we were supposed to be. And we've now moved into the part of the year where you're getting that predictable afternoon monsoon that blows through and lasts about, I don't know, it's usually like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe 45 minutes of this like storm, and then it's and then it's gone. And then the humidity comes after that.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

So as a horse girl, you're this is the time of year where you're like trying to shift to I need to ride early in the morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

And part of that is because of monsoon in the evening and then humidity, but also like heat in the middle of the day is starting to become an issue.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Yes, I'm vigorously nodding because those things are all factors that it gets really hot. If you wait until the afternoon, it will inevitably rain during the you know two-hour time slot that you have available to ride. And it's hot and humid in the afternoon. So riding in the morning is the way to go. Um, it's also really hard for me because I'm not a morning person. So really trying to get motivated to get out there in the morning is um sometimes a challenge for me. I would prefer to ride in the evening, but then I get thwarted by the monsoon.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

So I don't know. Okay, so so so to complete the picture here. So this is the time of year in North Central Florida where you live, where like really the ideal horse time is first thing in the morning. Not ideal for you personally, but ideal horse time is first first thing in the morning because the middle of the day is gonna be way too hot, the afternoon's gonna be a monsoon, and then the evening's gonna be humid and hot, and none of those things are are that fun. Listeners, I am I am painting this picture for a reason. I'm I can see Andy on screen. You can't, but I can see Andy on screen. And and what I'm seeing is not hearkening to where Andy currently lives, what I'm seeing is an image that looks like where Andy grew up in Michigan, all right? Okay, so so in the background is like this what looks to be like a log cabin, because her house is basically a log cabin, right? So you can picture this like you know, the the plank wooden walls and all the stuff in the background. And then Andy is dressed as if it is not late May in Florida, it is early February in Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Yep, yep. It's chilly in my house, it's chilly in my office.

SPEAKER_03 3:52

It's chilly in her office, and Andy loves to be cozy.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Plus, I'm drinking a smoothie, and any smoothie fans out there know that you get chilly. You get chilly when you drink a smoothie.

SPEAKER_03 4:02

You get chilly when you drink a smoothie. I'm there's no judgment here, it's just always entertaining when I like, you know, I'm I'm in shorts and a t-shirt because it's warm in Colorado. It's like 78 today, and you know, I get on a call. Yeah, it's really actually quite wonderful. We'll definitely take a dog walk later. Um, but then I get on a call with you, and I'm expecting you to be like, you know, full-on sweaty tank top kind of thing. And here you are looking like it's the middle of winter in the Midwest. And it's just it's always a little bit surprising. Um Andy, I'm not gonna try and be sneaky with today's dad joke. I'm just gonna ask it to you because it's it's in a question form and it's not I it's not directly related to horses, which is what today's episode is about, but you know, it's fairly close, right? Um, you could consider this a uh, I don't know, a non-companion animal type creature. Andy, okay. What do you call a bear who's lost all his teeth?

SPEAKER_01 5:01

What do you call a bear that has lost all of his teeth? All I'm doing is singing the bear necessities in my brain, and that's I got nothing.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Um that's that's good.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

What Josh, what do you call a bear that has lost all its teeth?

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Well, Andy, you you call it one of my favorite treats, a gummy bear.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Oh, a gummy bear. That's a good one. That's a good one. Gums, gummy bears.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Gummy bear. Yeah, it's thank you. Thank you for indulging me.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

That is a good one. I too love a gummy bear. One of my horses loves a gummy bear. Really? Dokaroo, his favorite treats are gummy bears. I know. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

I'll have to remember that the next time I come.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yes, bring him gummy bears, and he'll be your friend forever.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

I'll go, I'll go up to Canada and hit a bulk barn and get a couple of pounds to gummy bears.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

You'd be his favorite human.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

This is my goal in life now.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Good. Well, um, you kind of alluded to it, and I'm actually kind of excited because this episode is horse-related. It is focused on equine medicine. It is focused on equine veterinary professionals. And um, of course, I got super excited about all of that. And I can't wait to talk more about the research that I found uh surrounding that. And the reason that I get so excited about that is that, of course, I'm a horse girl and an equine professional. And throughout my journey and throughout all of the relationships and connections that I've had with other equine professionals, it's been made really clear to me that we do not accidentally end up in equine medicine. We were horse kids first. We love the smell of the barn, the sound of the grain buckets, and the magic that horses bring long before we ever understood things like 2 a.m. emergency colics or industry sustainability crises. And because I am one, I feel safe enough to say that most horse people are a very specific kind of crazy. And of course, in my opinion, the very best kind of crazy. Because we are willing to wake up at 4:30 in the morning, drive out into the middle of nowhere, only to get soaking wet from one of these famous Florida monsoons, spend all of our money on an animal that is actively trying to injure us, and somehow call it the best day ever. Horses, they're what we arrange our lives around. They're why we eat ramen noodles while they enjoy their very fancy German horse muffins. They are an unspoken beacon that connects us. Horse people, we have a way of finding one another, even in a crowded room that has absolutely nothing to do with horses. And I think a lot of that, at least for me, is that horses were never a hobby for me. It became a part of my DNA. Horses are my community, they're part of my identity, and they're my home. Because somehow we've all collectively agreed that yes, this type of crazy behavior is totally normal.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Okay, hold hold on a second here, Andy. I I am not a horse kid. I did not grow up with horses. I rode horses actually as a little kid for for like a year until I got knocked off of one. But but you horse people, especially like these past few years since you've joined Flourish, you absolutely fascinate me. I'm really curious, when did horses kind of not be a hobby for you and really become part of your identity?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

That is such a great question, Josh. I think for me, it was pretty early on in my teenage years when I realized that I liked who I was when I was at the barn, when I was with my horse friends, with my horse. I could be happy, I could be confident, and I could actually breathe. And once I realized I really wanted horses to be a part of my everyday life. Now, I'm sure everybody's story is a little bit different and kind of the same all at the same time. And Josh, you've known me now long enough, right? To watch me full-on horse girl my way through life. And I'm curious, when it comes to me and some of our other horsey connections, what stands out to you about our very special kind of crazy?

SPEAKER_03 9:24

It it is a very special kind of crazy. I'm not gonna lie. Um, you know, when I learned from you, getting to know you, the um extent to which you must go to care for these creatures, uh, both with your time, your energy, your financial commitment, uh, and all of those things. Um, yeah, suddenly all of my strange hobbies and obsessions uh felt secondary. Um, I mean, I think there's a lot of things that stand out to me. But one of the things that really stands out to me is uh I to me it feels like an especially unique connection that you have with these animals. Um you know, I think of we recently lost a dog, Addie was her name. Uh it was sudden, it was unexpected, she was only five and a half. You know, we we were preparing for another 10 years with this animal. And I always knew it when we had her, but certainly losing her really made it acute that you know, I'm almost 50 now, and this was like the soul dog. Like this was the one animal that I felt most connected to and um most in love with. And I've been around animals my whole life. I feel like horse people experience that over and over and over again with every horse that they've ever had. I mean, I know that there's always like that that really truly special one that you feel especially connected to, but even the ones that like horse people say to me, like, yeah, he's a good horse, but that's not really the one. It still feels like a connection that is exceptional and unique.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Yeah. We all have a heart horse. And if we're lucky, we have more than one. But I I I mean, yeah, I think you're right. Regardless of whether or not it's our heart horse, there's definitely that connection that we have with them, that sort of unspoken understanding that comes from what I think has a lot to do with the trust that we have to put in one another, right? Like I have to trust this animal completely to literally get on it, sit on its back, and trust that it's going to take me from point A to point B. Just like the horses, right? They have to trust us that we're steering them in the right direction, that we're going to teach them kindly and softly, that we're going to care for them because they can't, you know, they can't take care of themselves. And there's a that's a balance there. I I love that.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

It's a very special relationship.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

Sure. So what do you think then happens when a profession is built on that level of passion, of trust, of connection?

SPEAKER_03 12:04

Yeah. I mean, you you said something earlier. You said actually, you said something several years ago. One of the very first things that you said to me was some version of this statement. Josh, you you need to understand that I have a I have a genetic mutation that makes me a horse girl. Um, you know, when I when I hear those things and when I hear how you opened up this episode, uh, there's it's a part of your identity. It's a part of who you are as a human being and how you think of yourself in this world and your path through this crazy life that we're all trying to navigate. Uh, when something is that heavily internalized and that much a part of identity, it it can create a deep sense of purpose and meaning and passion, but it could also put us at risk for um exploitation, for uh, you know, overwork, uh, for um uh just doing more than any one human being should probably be doing at any given time, maybe even more so than the general veterinary profession, professional. Um, so I think that like, I mean, my personal take, it's subjective. I don't have data to back this, but my personal take is that most, maybe even all veterinary professionals are generally at risk for these things because this kind of caregiving, heart-centered work uh, you know, does that uh to people. But I think that equine practitioners in particular are uniquely positioned in this way. And uh, I think that's a, you know, that that that can be both the magic and uh the danger of um, you know, a profession that's built from that that level of passion.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Sure. It kind of takes it to the next level on both ends of the scale.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah. Well, and that's why I was so pleased to come across this study. And when it kind of bleeped through my radar, I got really excited because it focuses specifically on equine medicine, the challenges that come from it, and more importantly, the opportunity that we have to support the incredibly important corner of VetMed that is equine medicine. Now, the paper is titled, Engage and Enjoy Investigating Predictors of Employee Engagement and Work Satisfaction in Equine Veterinary Professionals. The study was published in 2023 in the Frontiers in Veterinary Science Journal, and it was authored by researchers from the Royal Veterinary College and Utrecht University. And what immediately caught my attention about this paper is that it focuses specifically on equine veterinary medicine, right? A corner of the world that we've already determined is deeply important and deeply meaningful. It also is currently having some conversations about sustainability, retention, and the future of the profession itself. Now, as both a horse person and an equine veterinary professional, I found this paper super fascinating. And what I really appreciated about it is that it's not just another paper and a study talking about burnout. Yes, burnout matters. Retention matters, sustainability matters. And all of those things are very real in veterinary medicine right now, especially in equine vetmed. And this paper, it took a different approach. Instead of asking, why are equine veterinary professionals struggling? The researchers asked, what actually helps equine veterinary professionals stay engaged and satisfied in their work, which I think is a really important shift in this conversation. Because equine medicine, it asks a lot of people. It is physically demanding work, emotionally demanding work, time demanding work. I mean, come on, we're talking about overnight emergencies, long drives, weather extremes, high emotional investment, clients that are very invested, and an entire industry that is openly discussing sustainability concerns right now. That sustainability conversation is one of the reasons why this study caught my attention in the first place. Because this was not some random study done in isolation. The researchers here partnered with some of the biggest organizations in equine veterinary medicine, including AAEP, which is American Association of Equine Practitioners, the British version, which is BEVA, the British Equine Veterinary Association, and a similar group in the Netherlands, the KN Equine Group. So it was pretty intentional that they made an effort to gather meaningful international data from equine veterinary communities around the globe. And they ended up collecting responses from more than 500 equine veterinary professionals from across 29 different countries. Now, yes, the majority of the responses came from the United States, the United Kingdom, and the Netherlands. Now, one other thing about this that got me really excited, and I thought was really, really important to note is that not only did they look at DVMs, the participant pool included both veterinarian and non-veterinarian equine professionals, working in a variety of roles at a variety of stages throughout their career. It also reflects individuals working in different equine settings. So think boarding barns, track work, or maybe even backyardigans. Now, I especially appreciate that because the sustainability of equine medicine, it impacts the entire team, horse owners included. So essentially, the researchers here wanted to identify what workplace factors strongly influenced engagement and work satisfaction in equine medicine. And this is where things got really fascinating because the survey itself included a wide range of workplace-related statements. Things like, I am proud to tell people where I work. My manager recognizes good performance. The company I work for invests in learning and development. And then the researchers used statistical analysis to identify patterns and clusters in the responses. Essentially, they were looking for workplace themes that consistently showed up together when people reported higher engagement and satisfaction. And what they found was four major workplace factors that strongly influenced how engaged and satisfied people felt in their work. If I'm being honest, every single one of them felt incredibly relevant to veterinary medicine as a whole, not just in equine practice. And what I found hopeful about this paper is that these things that they found, these themes, they are not personality traits or random fixed characteristics. They are cultural factors, things that leaders, teams, organizations can intentionally influence. Now, the first factor they identified, they called pride and purpose. And wow, this one feels horse person coded to me. This factor focuses on feeling proud where you work, feeling emotionally connected to the mission and feeling aligned with the values of your organization. Personally, I find that equine professionals tend to care deeply about purpose. This is not casual work for most people. This is identity level work that harkens back to that makeup of our DNA. This study reiterated something that you and I already know to be true, Josh, that we want to feel like what we're doing matters. We want to feel connected to something meaningful and proud to do the work and make the contributions. And one of the findings that really stood out to me was that employers tended to report higher levels of satisfaction in this category than employees, which kind of makes sense because owners and employers often have more autonomy, more influence over the mission, more control over the culture and direction of the practice. Autonomy actually becomes a really important thread throughout this entire paper. Now, the second factor focuses on company culture and relationships with management. This section, of course, felt very flourishy because this factor focuses heavily on trust, communication, recognition, support, and that overall relationship between staff and leadership. And what I really appreciated here was that the paper repeatedly pointed back towards relationships and leadership as major drivers of engagement. Not perks, not surface level morale boosters, but real relationships. How supported people feel, how respected they feel, whether communication is healthy, and whether leadership creates trust. And increasingly, veterinarians actually tended to report lower satisfaction scores in several of these areas compared to non-veterinarian professionals, which I thought was fascinating. Because I think a lot of people assume that becoming a the veterinarian automatically means more satisfaction and fulfillment. But the paper suggests that responsibility, workload, pressure, and expectations can complicate that reality. Now the third factor focused on working conditions and compensation. I really appreciated the balance in this section because the authors did not pretend that passion fixes everything. Yes, equine professionals are deeply passionate people. And working conditions still matter. Compensation matters. Workload matters. Work life, benefits, continuing education and support matter. And honestly, one of the most interesting findings in this paper was that the need For these things seemed to shift across our career stages. It found that younger professionals tended to place more emphasis on growth opportunities, mentorship, and learning. More experienced professionals, on the other hand, they tended to place more value on compensation, flexibility, and sustainable working conditions. That makes sense because what we need from a profession can absolutely change over time or through any given situation. Now the paper really reinforced the idea that meaningful work matters and sustainable working conditions matter too. The fourth factor focuses on team culture and learning possibilities. I think this one was especially important, especially if we're being serious about the retention issues in equine medicine. This factor focuses on mentorship, support, teamwork, adaptability, and opportunities for professional growth. And it specifically highlights how important these factors were for younger professionals entering equine medicine, which I love because to me, it highlights how much these people want to do this kind of work and do it well. People need opportunities to grow, to ask questions, to develop confidence, to feel like a part of the team. These aren't just survival skills. I think there's a lot of us out there that can probably remember people in our own careers who have either helped us feel supported and capable or made us question whether we belonged there at all. And when you look at the sustainability concerns happening in equine medicine right now, that matters a lot. Now, what fascinated me most about this paper is that it reinforced something that I think many professionals probably are already feeling intuitively that people don't stay in equine medicine because they love horses. Because if love alone sustained a profession, equine medicine would not be facing a sustainability crisis. People stay when the culture surrounding the work helps them continue loving it in a balanced way. And it allows them to not only work with horses, but ride their own horse consistently. Because yes, loving horses got us into this profession. But culture, leadership, support, growth, flexibility, autonomy, those are all the things that determine whether or not we stay. Now, Josh, even though you haven't spent too much time in the equine world, I'm willing to bet that there is a lot that resonates with you about your own experience with identity and meaningful work. Would you be willing to share some of it?

SPEAKER_03 24:41

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

Yes, of course. Um, yeah, this is uh this is really fascinating stuff. I'm I'm grateful that you brought this paper to discuss, and some of the findings really stand out to me. Um, for me personally, I think one of the things that was eye-opening for me a few years ago, I came across some research that talked about um, gosh, I wish I could remember the exact title of the paper, was something along the lines of the dark side of a calling. And it was work done on um uh focused on zookeepers. Uh as I'm sure you can imagine, Andy, people who are drawn to zookeeping are probably, you know, uh, if not close, if not equal, at least close to the levels of passion and commitment that's tons of yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And uh for many of them, it feels like a calling. As I would imagine that many equine professionals, uh equine medical professionals probably say similar things, it feels like a calling. And what they found in this research was that um historically we'd thought of this idea of doing purposeful and meaningful work, you know, working in a calling as a really great pathway to uh professional fulfillment and well-being. Uh, but actually what they found was that uh these zookeepers were highly susceptible to burnout uh and all sorts of other deleterious uh outcomes because of the fact that it felt like a calling. And so they they never really felt like whether whether their employer was doing it intentionally or not, they never really felt like they could take time away. They always had to be available, that no one else is gonna care for these animals, and uh, you know, just one more, just one more, just one more. And that was really eye-opening for me. It really made me start to go down the path of uh what I think this paper is talking about, that um the system in which we work can turn a calling into a strength that endures, or turn it into um something that causes us damage and harm. And uh I think that's really, really important in equine medicine. I think a lot of us, you know, I I'm picturing like, you know, the the the equine practitioner in central Wyoming, who like they're the only horse vet within 300 miles, right? And that person, what's to protect that person from their own sense of identity and the meaningfulness of their work, uh, but a system that that can help provide some healthy boundaries and structure for that person to succeed. Uh, so that that's one of the things that really stands out to me.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Yeah. The weight that can come with that passion and that purpose and that calling. I mean, it's a a calling. It's a great, it's a great way to say it.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

There, there's um, sorry, this is I'm I'm just said I'm just remembering this. Um, several years ago I attended a uh uh veterinary well-being event, a summit. And there was, I want to say it was a mixed animal practice somewhere in Texas, but I could be wrong. My memory is not that great. Uh that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 27:50

I bet you there's a few of those in Texas. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Yeah. So one of the things that they did to help with these kinds of things, right? Because they recognize that a lot of these practitioners, um, you know, they do feel very drawn and they do have a sense of attachment and commitment and responsibility for their patients and clients. And uh they will be pulled into, they will allow themselves to be pulled into doing more, more, more, more, more. So one of the things that they they did to help with this, recognizing this reality and the fact that almost all of their associates and uh support staff were women, they bought the building next door to the practice and like formally, like with licensing and everything, turned it into a daycare. So they ran their own daycare so that anybody who had children didn't ever have to worry about, oh shoot, I need to get home. You know, like they could bring their kids. The daycare was a benefit. It would they didn't pay for it, none of the team paid for it. It was just available to them. It was just like one. I mean, this is a very big and not everybody can do something this big. I get that, but but it's the thought process of what can we do to make this system more sustainable and enduring in which these people work. Um, that seems like a clear example. And I'll bet that uh the this this study, as you were reading it, probably spoke to like it would be in support of these kinds of initiatives.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Sure, sure. Well, the big thing there is that it's not necessarily asking people to change or change what what matters or how they feel about the work that they're doing, right? Like it's not asking you to be less passionate about horses, it's recognizing that that's in there. That is part of our foundational makeup. So let's support that in the team and let's find ways to allow the balance to be more even.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

The worst thing that an employer or a manager or a leader can do to somebody who feels so compelled and so self-identifying with their work is just tell them things like, you need to care less, you need to have better boundaries without providing a system that makes it possible for them to actually live those boundaries. You can't you can't make people change to fit within your system. You have to change the system to fit the human beings that you're asking to support the system.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah, otherwise they're gonna walk away.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Or burn themselves out or worse. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yep, absolutely. Now, one of the other through lines that keeps coming up for me in this paper is the idea of autonomy, right? Like it shows up over and over again. Sometimes it's direct and sometimes it's indirect. But the employers in this study, like I said, they tended to have higher satisfaction. So to me, that says flexibility, it matters. Control over the schedule matters, influence over the culture, growth opportunities. That stuff matters. And I think that autonomy matters even more in veterinary medicine because horse people, we tend to be incredibly independent humans. We are very used to solving problems, managing chaos, being resourceful, making decisions quickly. And I know what happens when somebody tries to tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

Yeah. Y'all, y'all need to see Andy Davison's You're not the boss of me face.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Oh, yeah, there are many. But yeah, but that's it. And so, you know, I know for me, autonomy is huge. And a lot of that stems from my horse girlness. You know, I I'm gonna get it done and this is how I'm gonna do it, and I'm gonna do it myself if I have to. Like that's that is part of my makeup. And so the idea of autonomy and the need that I know I have for autonomy is huge. And I think a lot of that comes from the horse girl gene. So when you think about that, right, I I don't think I'm that unique in that sense. I'm sure this applies to many other horse people. And when we as a culture take these highly independent people and micromanage them and make them feel unsupported or maybe disconnected from decision making. Josh, what do you think happens in these situations?

SPEAKER_03 32:37

What I hear in that question is sort of like two things that can happen. Um, you have a highly independent person and you micromanage them. Now they're feeling like that need for autonomy is being unmet, uh, which by the way is a universal human need. Uh, it's probably slightly exacerbated uh as a need in equine practitioners. Um, but everybody needs to feel some sense of control over their own life story. Uh and so when we micromanage people, we put that need at risk. Once that need's at risk, that's really all the brain can focus on. Then the other side of it is we have these highly independent people and we leave them unsupported or disconnected. Oh, they've got it. This sort of like laissez-faire leadership. Well, that puts actually uh potentially another core human need at risk, which is that need for uh relatedness or connectedness to be a part of something, uh, to feel like we're doing this together, not all alone. Yes, even wholly independent people need to feel some social connection to a group that matters to them and feel that they matter to that group as well. Uh, and so when we leave them sort of hanging in the wind, uh, we're we're leaving them feeling utterly unsupported. Again, that's really all that their brain's going to be able to focus on, which means that they're gonna have diminished performance, diminished energy uh to do the things that that we're asking them to do. And over time, this is going to become incredibly damaging.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Now, another really interesting through line in this paper was how our workplace needs tend to shift across career stages. The paper states that younger professionals prioritize things like mentorship, leadership opportunities, and support, where more experienced professionals place more emphasis on flexibility, compensation, and sustainable working conditions. Now, honestly, Josh, this reminds me a lot of our work ethic and generations episode, because sometimes I think these conversations get framed as young professionals, they just don't want to work hard anymore. When really I wonder if many young professionals are simply prioritizing different values, regardless of what generation they come from, that they aren't asking for less commitment to the profession, but rather a different relationship with the profession. Josh, what do you think the younger professionals are teaching us about sustainability in our work?

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Um I I think that I think there's a lot of lessons, and we could probably spend an entire hour talking about that. But one thing that really stands out to me based on this particular conversation is I think that younger professionals these days, the incoming generation in the workforce, is teaching us that work life is not a whole life. That uh the wholeness of a human being includes multiple identities, and that if the only identity is tied to work life, that's pretty tenuous. And that leaves us feeling unfulfilled as human beings. And so I really applaud their efforts to find more um balance and variety in their life. And I think it's a lesson that all of us can learn to embrace.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Well, I love that. And in listening to you kind of lay that out, for me, it comes down to not only is it important and purposeful and meaningful to work with horses, right? As a veterinary professional, it is equally important to ride my own and to care for my own and to, you know, learn and grow and go to lessons and go cross-country schooling with my own horses. And that those two things can be equally valuable, and that it can be part of our identity to be an equine professional, but it can also be an equal part of our identity to be a horse kid.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Yes, and to be someone who routinely rides roller coasters, and to be someone who dreams of living in Europe, and to be someone who, you know, visits family and never talks about horses. Like all of those things are part of who you are as a human being. And I think that's that's what the the the sort of incoming generations have learned the hard way, especially these folks that you know lived some very formative years through COVID and you know started to have this acute awareness that there's there's just more, there's more to life. There's yeah, that it's not just about work. There's work is important and other things are important too. And they're just refusing to um they're refusing to live in a world in which work is the only thing that uh defines who you are and defines why you matter and what value you add.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

And thank goodness for it.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

Thank goodness for it. Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Yeah, we could absolutely talk about this for three more hours. But let's shift into the culture renovation side of the conversation. Because one of the things I really liked about this paper is that it didn't just point out the problems, it also pointed out opportunities. In identifying those four clear themes, it really reminded us that there are possibilities out there. And to me, every single one of these themes points towards an opportunity for intentional culture renovation. The two that stood out to me were pride and purpose and team culture and learning opportunities. Because both of these themes speak directly to stuff that we talk about a lot at Flourish, that people want to feel connected to meaningful work. And we want to feel supported while we do it. So when it comes to the pride and purpose theme, this paper repeatedly reinforced that people want to feel connected to meaningful work. One of the things that the researchers specifically pointed towards was the importance of aligning personal values with organizational values. And I think the really interesting follow-up question then becomes well, how do people actually uncover what their values are in the first place? Because a lot of us have maybe never stopped to ask, what matters most to me? What kind of environment helps me thrive? What kind of teammate or leader do I want to be? Our values, they are both deeply personal and can sometimes change over time. So deliberately reflecting on questions like which moments at work feel most meaningful to me? Or what am I consistently prioritizing or maybe avoiding in practice can be really, really helpful because values become much more useful when they move beyond words on paper and into everyday professional decisions. And when people understand what matters most to them, they can make more intentional decisions about how they sustainably engage with their team, their practice, and the profession as a whole. The cool part is that veterinary leaders can support this discovery in some really simple and powerful ways as well. Inviting people in to a values conversation. Maybe it's during onboarding, maybe it's during one of your monthly or weekly one-to-ones, but just intentionally starting that conversation and getting curious. There it is, getting curious with people about what meaningful work looks like to them. Ask them, what are you doing here when you find yourself really energized? When you when you feel like you're making a difference. Tell me more about what you're doing when that happens. Because when people feel connected to purpose intentionally, not accidentally, engagement tends to deepen. Now, the second theme that stood out to me was the team culture and learning opportunities, especially because this paper highlighted how important support, mentorship, learning environments are. And I am gonna step on my little tiny soapbox for one short second, because learning opportunities should not only belong to the veterinarian, the entire veterinary team deserves opportunities to grow, to learn, to contribute, and to develop professionally. Because healthy cultures are built when the whole team feels invested in, not just one role inside the system. Now, I happen to know of a certain academy that offers a variety of opportunities to learn, grow, and develop for everyone in veterinary medicine. Yes, I am talking about the Flourish Academy. And yes, I will link it in our show notes because there's a bunch of different resources for all roles, all goals, and all interests. Now, Josh, I've been talking an awful lot here. So please shove me off my soapbox because I want to hear some of your ideas. How can our listeners take some of this valuable research and put it into action out in their world?

SPEAKER_03 41:30

Yeah. I was thinking about the um the values alignment uh piece that you were talking about. Uh and I was thinking about ways that um we can really bring that to the surface. Because oftentimes those things are we don't really recognize them until they become pain points. So, an example of what I mean by this is that, you know, we don't really like you suggested, we most of us don't have a deep level of awareness about what we truly value and how those values are ranked. Um, because a lot of it is contextual and situational. So an example of this might be uh Andy, imagine a situation in which you're at Flourish, um, Kelly or Tess is having a really difficult personal issue uh and they reach out to you. At the same time, you're working on a really big project that you're coming up against the deadline for for one of our biggest clients. And you literally have to choose do I help support my teammate or do I accomplish this task that is expected of me in my job? Right. That is exactly the kind of time when like having an awareness of what we value as an organization and what you value as a human being and making sure those things are aligned is essential, but we don't really think about that in advance. So why not ask about it in advance? Why not talk through it in advance during hiring? Why not paint that picture? Like think about what do I, as a hospital owner, want uh Andy Davison to do in that situation? Like what do I actually, what's most important to me? And whichever one is most important to you, that's up to you. That's totally fine. There's no judgment for me. If if it's I you know above all else, I want Andy to drop her work and and support her teammate, then great. That's the thing that's important to you. Be aware of that. If, no, no, no, no, I put off the teammate, refer them to somebody else. What I really need you to do is to meet this deadline for this client, that's the most important thing, great. But at least be aware of that. So that way when you're interviewing people, you can lay that out, that scenario out, and honestly ask them to walk you through exactly what they would do. And then you'll have an idea of what does this person value? And does it match what I value and what I need in this organization? Furthermore, talk about it in team meetings. Like, hey guys, I really want to talk about how we value things here and how we respond to situations. So let's talk through some situations that might put values at odds where we have to choose between one. And then let's talk about how I would like this to go as a team and how how you want this to go as a team and how we can work through this together. Right. So I I that's the the one thing that I would add to this culture renovation section.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

That it's a two way street. I love that. Like I'm getting all excited. So for me to understand more about what my values are is great and to be able to share what that is, but then for you on the other side of that. Relationship to be able to go, okay, well, these are mine, and this is how I would react in that situation. Like it it's a two-way street. Nobody's necessarily right or wrong, but to understand more about what that looks like for everybody can like go next level. I that's yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Totally. For for me as an employer, that's gonna give me a really good sense on do I have the right people in the right seats, right? For you as an employee, that's gonna give you a really good sense on is this the kind of place I am likely to thrive, or is this place going to inhibit my ability to thrive? Those are those are both really important data points for alignment.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Well, and it's also gonna show both of us that it matters because it's an intentional conversation. It's not well, we'll figure it out or we'll deal with it when it happens. It's an intentional conversation that is happening. And when those things happen, it proves that it matters.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

Precisely.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Yeah. Yep. Okay. I I I guess we'll have to reluctantly wrap up this conversation because I am loving every bit of it. This paper was fascinating. I was so excited to read it. Um, I was excited to bring it to the lab because I think it leaves us with a really important reminder that people do not stay connected to meaningful work through passion and love alone. They stay when the culture surrounding that work helps them continue to engage with it in a balanced and sustainable way through purpose, through support, growth opportunities, healthy relationships, leadership, and through environments where people feel trusted, valued, and invested in. And honestly, I think that matters deeply for the future of equine medicine because this profession deserves to keep the passionate, talented, horse-crazy humans who love it enough to make it a part of who they are. Now, speaking of horse crazy humans, it turns out that there's actually a lot of us in Florida because this week's headline is a Florida woman headline. And it was actually not hard to find a horse-related Florida woman headline. This week's headline, Florida woman gets arrested for a DUI while riding her horse. Shocker. You're shocked, I know. This particular Florida woman was intoxicated. She was riding her horse, which was named Beau Duke after the Dukes of Hazard, because what else would a Florida woman name her horse, right? Down a very, very busy street in Tampa. Now, apparently people saw this and out of concern for the horse, yay, they called the law. The law came, they arrested this woman for a DUI and for neglect against her horse. Now, there's a video that I will link in the show notes, and I'm telling you that because it shows the horse, who of course was the goodest boy. He didn't spook at any of the cars and trucks, but it shows the horse in the video happily grazing with the sheriffs. So everything with the horse turned out just fine. Now, I'm sure you're not gonna be surprised that horse-related DUIs are actually kind of common in Florida for both Florida man and for Florida woman. I know. Gotta love the great state. Horse capital of the world.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

Horse capital of the world, horse crazy capital of the world.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yes, horse. Oh, I like that better. I think we should, I think we should push to change that. Horse crazy capital of the world. Yep. I don't think many people will argue. Oh, good, good. Well, listen, Josh, thank you for jumping in on this important conversation. It's clearly one that means a lot to me, and I loved being able to share it with you and chat with you. Listeners, I appreciate you as well. Taking the time out of your busy day to hang out with us. It means a lot to us. Be sure to check out the links in the show notes for everything that we referenced today. And if you're enjoying your time with us, we would be wildly grateful if you could rate and follow the Veterinary Culture Lab. Until next time, my friends. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Bye, guys.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Thanks for hanging out with us in the Veterinary Culture Lab, powered by the science of workplace well-being, and brought to you by Flourish Veterinary Consulting. If today's episode sparked an idea, made you smile, or got you thinking, hey, I should totally try that. Let us know. What do you think? Be sure to subscribe, share, and remember a thriving veterinary culture is possible, and you don't have to build it alone.