Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, with my co-host Mick Mulroy here. Today we wanted to start with a topic that has really kind of exploded in um in the in the media world right now recently. Um and that topic is toxic masculinity, or essentially how stoicism is anti-that. It's a big thing that comes up in today's world, especially right now, right? There's a Netflix documentary called Manosphere out with uh Louis Louis Thoreau. Um and it's really come to the fore because of some of the things that he's shown off. Um, but uh also, you know, I think as well for a lot of people, including, you know, Mick and myself, we're sometimes trying to figure out how the heck did we get here? Let's do a quick uh review for ourselves, though, of you know, this is a Google search definition, but I think it's something that kind of set us off here. So um if you look up the words toxic masculinity online, it says toxic masculinity refers to restrictive traditional cultural norms that pressure men to act tough, avoid showing emotion, and dominate others, which can result in harmful behaviors and negative mental health outcomes. It emphasizes aggression, extreme self-reliance, and the suppression of empathy, ultimately harming men, themselves, women, and society. So there are some key aspects that it highlights emotional suppression, aggression and dominance, anti-femininity, risky behavior, but it also talks about the impacts on society, things like the impact on mental health. There is uh an impact to individuals because this can lead to physical harm sometimes, where they say just tough it out and they don't go see the doctor for the broken leg. Um, but also social harm, because it's been noted that toxic masculinity contributes to some very negative behaviors and social exclusion. So I'll wrap up my opening to say I think if we were to think about this in the older types of words or definitions, people might bring up things like male chauvinism or sexism or even racism, which seems to uh be prevalent within the um toxic masculinity movement right now. So that's the stage that we're setting for ourselves as to what that means. And I think Mick, you and I today are going to talk about why that's not great and why stoicism is uh actually anti-that. It's quite the opposite. Though people sometimes misconstrue our philosophical practice to think that it's connected to it. So, do you have any opening thoughts for us? Uh how do you feel about uh you know where we start? Sure.
SPEAKER_04I think, well, it's kind of interesting here when you read the definition. I guess I'd start with this. I mean, we tend to give things new terms, but I guess when I was growing up, they would just call that person an asshole. Right? Yeah. I mean, now it's it's it's we're trying to be like scientific and create some kind of I don't know, class for college or something calling it toxic masculinity. But if you just read what you just said, it's a person who's boorish, a bully, um, and thinks whatever they are, uh, a male in this case, is better than everything else, right? Yeah, so it's pretty much just an asshole. Um, so I'd start with that. And and I'd also point out that there was a couple, not that you did it, but because you were written the definition, there was a couple inconsistencies in the definition. So it said it was vacant of emotion and then uncontrollable anger.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So last time I checked, uh, anger was in fact an emotion, right? Yeah, so you're not vacant of it, you have a lack of control of it. Yeah, okay, because uh emotion isn't just um, you know, all the good stuff. Emotion is both fear and anger and happiness and sadness, and it runs a gamut. I mean, that's how we evolved, right? Yes, uh, and there are times, and and we'll get to this, uh, there are times when anger is appropriate, right? Uh not to go on a tangent, but I was just reading a story about how these people torture beagles for the betterment of science, and all I was getting was angry, right? And and then in the story, it says the reason why they pick beagles is because they're so forgiving that even when you torture them, the next day they're wacking their tail, right? So that makes me really angry. I feel that is an appropriate response to the idea that you would torture a dog. Yeah, so I would start with that. It's they're not vacant of emotion, they have a heart. These people, whoever they are, which uh all deem um uh I guess if we're gonna call them toxic uh males. Uh, of course, there's females that exhibit this too, not as much, but okay. Um, they don't they're not void of emotion, they have an inability to control um envy and anger. Yeah. So that's the first one. There's another inconsistency that you said in the definition. My rambling has made it escape me.
SPEAKER_01It's okay. I mean, one I'll while I'm taking a look, I'll quickly say, yeah, I I think one thing for sure is there's a weird selectivity to this, which is like they're selecting like man emotions, like oh, self-reliance. That's what that's I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just no, no, but I I feel like it's very selective as well, which is very odd, right? Where it's like, you know, real men are angry and forceful and aggressive and assertive and nothing else, which is is super weird in my mind, but that's all I was gonna say in response to you. Yeah, it's very selective.
SPEAKER_04I don't know that that's ever been the case that even men that we would consider very manly, yeah, um, like I don't know, Teddy Roosevelt or something, would be comfortable with somebody who is abusive and a bully. Right. In fact, I think most men that we would Chuck Norris, right? He just passed away. But yeah, he did. Right. Uh I think Chuck Norris would be the complete opposite of what you everything you just described, right? So he's soft spoken, he beats up the bully. He isn't the bully. Yeah, right. Uh uh, and he's somebody that even there's to me, Chuck Norris jokes are hilarious, but it's all infinity twice, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So he so we consider him very manly, and he's the opposite of everything you just said. Right. At least his persona, and I think it's an accurate persona.
SPEAKER_01I I get that. So you wanted to talk about extreme self-reliance, it sounded like.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because I I I don't view people who fit into the category that you've described as self-reliant at all.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Right? They they literally feel better about making people feel worse about themselves.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01That's not self-reliant. Um they're also yeah, but they're also reliant on like because so much of this is uh it comes from social media. They're also they're reliant on the like, they're reliant on the the retweet. Do you know what I mean? They're not self-reliant. That's not self-reliant, right? In fact, they're only reliant on others in many ways for their own happiness, right? Right.
SPEAKER_04Right. And I it's what I what I would be concerned about is that the people who are influencers, I think is what they're called, um, that try to promote this. And I want to get into some of the statistics that I've uh found on uh young men nowadays, because it's yeah, it's important, um, that they're looking for something. And if they find this as a release based on what they perceive internally as, you know, either they're not where they want to be in life, they're not happy with their situation, and then they turn it into, well, then I'm just gonna group with a bunch of other people, usually men that feel this way, and then I'm gonna turn against the world, and then I'm gonna exhibit all the characters. That's what we got to be worried about. But throughout history, I think people that fit that category were simply jerks, or I call them assholes, and that most of the men that were viewed as like a good example of masculinity would think the same way. I mean, it's just never, I mean, the Lone Ranger, right? I mean, just go down back in history. They're always the people the men who, yes, they they they they fight, but they fight for right. Yeah, use their skills, they use their masculine traits, if you will, to defeat the Nazis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? So, and I and the other part of this, and I think it's promoted a little too much in colleges. As soon as my kids start going to college and start hearing these terms, um, and it's just not if if you want to talk about an an individual characteristic, you should, but when you label it as like a whole group, right, uh, then you start getting into the same issues that we had with people labeling whole racial groups based on you know whatever perception they had that was incorrect, and then they just talked about the entire ethnic or racial group, um, as if one individual from the group then exemplifies you see what I mean? It's I think there's for the people that are somewhat in the center, they start seeing the same characteristics on the far left as they saw on the far right. Right. And it's like, okay, so now every male that exhibits male characteristics is toxic, really. Yeah. Um, because that's that's not fair either. And it's actually the base basis of prejudice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's tough because the uh the application of a label to this, right, it allows it to be studied or qualified in some way. But I also feel like it it's it starts a sort of them, us versus them attitude, anyways, right? Because it's it's simple for someone on the left to say, well, he's just toxic, he's just a toxic male or something like that when someone disagrees with them. And I don't think that's helpful either. I think having a label to describe the traits that we're talking about, I think are very good. But at the same time, I think we get to this point where where the labels aren't helping sometimes. We have to talk about the actual the detail, the the meat of it, really. Yeah, right. So I thought it was interesting to to think about this also from why is it called toxic, right? And it was interesting because toxic toxic is an adjective, right? I hate to be the guy with words all the time, but I do try to think about it this way, right? Um, you know, it's uh toxic can be acting or having the effect of a poison, for example. It can cause harmful or malicious actions, right? Toxic is is meant to be that. And I think you know, that's one thing that we're really talking about today, right? Is you know, I think you and I in general, when we were first discussing having this podcast topic, it was definitely around the idea of like this is this is harm, this is a harmful behavior, I think, right, is the first thing that that would probably come to our minds. So um, and that's something I think that that we're really talking about here. Harmful in many ways. Harmful because, for example, if they're selective about only having man emotions like anger and aggression and assertiveness, then they're missing out on the rest of the human experience, right? They're missing out on joy, they're missing out on empathy, they're missing out on compassion and and tenderness and sadness as well as happiness and joy.
SPEAKER_04So which are also, I mean, male emotions too. We're just we're just identifying the the ones that aren't helpful as male.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I mean, why why isn't empathy a male emotion? I'm not saying it's exclusive to males, but it's certainly not we're not devoid of it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_04At all.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I think that's that's a really important thing here. Um, because also like the idea of picking out some of these ones, right? If someone doesn't show that emotion, all of a sudden it's an us versus them again, where it's like, well, you know, I have empathy for somebody, and therefore I I'm not I'm not showing off my some extreme masculine trait, but all of a sudden now I'm just not like them. And you kind of go, like, well, that's not I don't think that's right at all. So men just like women, you know, have a wide variety of emotions. Excuse me. Sorry, but men, men as well as women have a wide variety of emotions. We all and for some people, certain ones are more prevalent than others, and for other people it's the other ones are more prevalent than others, and I think it's weird to to say that there's only one way to be something.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, totally true. I and you know, stoicism itself, there's a lot of reasons to get into stoicism, of course. Yeah, yeah, but one of them, I mean, Sedek actually wrote a book on it, is is anger. So at the core of what I think you know, college professors are calling toxic masculinity is an inability to control your anger.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right. And that that results in saying nasty things, being violent, or what have you. And I think that's always been a part of stoicism.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04To help control it, obviously, not to promote it. Right. Uh and sometimes, and I think it's important to point out, just like you could go to a church where you say, Well, these aren't the best people I've ever met. Well, that's why sometimes that's why they're there. I'm not just merging commercial uh churches, you get my point, right? Yeah, like so you could have somebody, and I think you'll find this in stoic groups that has anger issues, but that's why they're that at the stoic group, yeah, right? Because you're trying to learn how to have a positive way to deal with it. Because especially in modern society where it could becomes less and less uh you know personal and more um I don't know, difficult to deal with sometimes with people who just focus on themselves at the exclusion of others. It's hard to keep you know your temper. But I think coming to groups like the stoic groups, and then you'll learn, of course, all the other things that come to stoicism, but that can be a good draw for especially young men. I know men, but women too have sometimes issues with uh control of their anger. And it's important because it it will destroy your relationships. You will almost never get your point across in a way that's effective if you can't do it, you know, in a controlled manner. Um you'll have very little influence on society, generally speaking, because people don't want to see a you know a silver back gorilla jumping up and down and yelling to try to get their point across. It just uh it's just not effective. And it just can destroy your relationship. So I I would say that for both men and women, I would agree that it's probably more of an issue for males, but uh we should treat people as individuals. If you have an issue with it, then you should look at stoicism because it does a lot to try to you know get people away from that, to start focus on yourself, to let focus less on what you perceive as an insult and realize it's really how you react to it that matters, uh that that that really matters, and so whether it exists or not, I guess we can all agree that in some people all those characteristics exist. It's better that it doesn't, and the more you can control it, the better it is, not only for you and me, yeah, but society, because that's ultimately we're in a society, and um you have certain obligations to be in a society, I think.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And the the the book that we're we're referencing is um Seneca's book, which in in Latin was titled De Era, which means on anger. But essentially that's the book where Seneca's he equates anger to essentially temporary madness. And there's an interesting, there's but there's an interesting kind of thread for all of this, right? Because um we've had some episodes already about misconceptions about stoicism and whatnot. And um what I find a lot of the time when I meet people who get introduced to the philosophy, they sort of go, Well, I'm looking for something that you know, like I'm not seeing anywhere. Like I'm looking for something that helps guide me with being empathetic towards other people, or you know, how to how to I don't want to suppress my emotions. I want to just be in control of them so that they don't they don't own me, that it isn't like this temporary madness. And you kind of go, well, that's stoicism. And they go, really? Because we we tend to get brought into this broic world or whatever, right? But ultimately, I think, you know, it's easy to explain how we don't believe that that's actually real, like a real connection in this world. I've met people who are like, you know, oh, I read the meditations every once a year and I apply it in my life, and then it's like, yeah, but then they're they exhibit these traits that really I think Marcus would be like, yeah, no, that's not really my thing. And you kind of go, Well, you didn't really read it. You looked at the words on the page, but you didn't really get it. But, you know, I think the big thing though for sure is the obligations we have. You were kind of talking about that, and that, you know, and I think Seneca touches on this, right? Like, we do have obligations as people. Like, one thing that is definitely prominent in the toxic masculinity world is as we already talked about, they label it as extreme self-reliance, but it's almost isolationist, right? It's like, you know, I'm my I am my own island, which of course goes against what what a very famous um person read or wrote, excuse me, many years ago about how no man is an island. But I think there is an obligation there that I think stoics really stoics really look at for themselves, which is, you know, we are a social people as human beings, right? And Stoics embrace that, right? Species. And they embrace and what that means. What say? I say a social species. Social species, yes, that's a great way to put that. We're a social species. We are we are meant to be together, right? And I think, you know, the big thing for me is is that um the obligations that we hear about, um, I think weirdly enough, for Stoics, they they sort of don't say it's obligations like it's a trap or a uh a binding thing or some kind of shackle that you have to wear. Uh they view it more as like it's the obligation of what it means to be a real human being, right? To have that benevolence for others, to use wisdom when we make decisions, to have the courage to stand up when others are being harmed, um, to temper yourself so that you are not overreaching in a situation. And you know, those four cardinal virtues that we always talk about um are really meant for that to take place, for those things to be able to take place. And those things are social in nature. No, I th I I I I would be interested in your take on this in terms of the isolationist's idea, but like ultimately the four stoic virtues of wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice, they they include a social element. They do they always include an element about other people. It's never like it's not courage to stand alone and be on an island by yourself, it's courage to stand up and protect others and do the right thing and you know, those kinds of things. What's your take on that though? Because ultimately that's just my view of how I see the the four stoic virtues.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think I think you're right. Uh I mean, I think it's I think it's how you act in society is what they're looking at, right? You already said courage. I mean, courage isn't just like going trying to pick a fight with a grizzly bear, that would be stupid. Um, but courage is thick enough for people who potentially can't stick up for themselves, you know, defeating the Nazis. Right? Uh I'm just using Nazis as an example here.
SPEAKER_01Great example.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um wisdom. Wisdom isn't just for you to get a lot of information in your head. You sit around and just read encyclopedias, which I did as a kid. But it's it's I think uh it's to add to the wisdom of the world, you know, curing cancer or you know, just a philosophical concept that you're exploring that helps other people. Hopefully we're doing that right now, right? Yeah, um, temperance, temperance is just part of being in a society, right? Anything that goes to the extreme, whether it's consumption or behavior in the extreme is not necessarily helpful to you or society, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We're talking about anger specifically. And part of that, I just to be to stick on uh temperance, uh which I I usually just call self-discipline because I think it does include an element of just flat out discipline. Like you just have to make yourself do the right thing sometimes. But I I always notice uh you know as a kid until today, there's this like this elderly um liberation. And what I mean when you see older people, they become less concerned about what other people think. They tend to speak very bluntly. And they tend to just blow off like superfluous criticism. I'm not saying all elderly people like that, but since we're doing generalizations, I mean we're talking about toxic males. Um, I will I use generalizations, especially when they're positive, or at least my view is they're positive. Yeah. But yeah, I've always noticed that. Like uh it's young people that get so slighted and you know, uh, and older people tend to just start realizing that it's not worth the effort, right? Somebody cuts you off, you just say, okay, man, you you obviously have a place to go. Uh you want to cut me off, cut me off, right? Whereas young people like, eh, beeping on the horn and being aggressive in traffic, it's just an example. Uh, or you ask a person uh that's you know, you know, a little long of the tooth their opinion on something, they just tell you. You know, they're not trying to figure out how you stand on topic and say it in a way that's not you know that could be not controversial, but it's it's not intended to be like pokey and eyes, just like straight at it, you know. Right. Uh I I think that people would be uh better served if they go ahead and ex and take some of that elderly liberation before they're elderly, is what I'm saying. Yeah, talk to your grandma, talk to your grandpa, and go, hey, you know, they're really a matter of fact, they tend to only focus on things that really matter. Maybe I should do that now rather than wait till you know I get this enlightenment as they get older. Like learn from other people is another way of saying. Sure. Uh and I think it's a great example of temperance. It's just people tend to get, at least what I've seen, more, you know, okay. Well, people, people are gonna be like that. I don't need to be around them, too. That's the other thing. Is yeah, uh part of being a society doesn't mean you have to be with everybody in society. If somebody is toxic, whether male, female, uh you don't have to hang out with them. No, no, you can just, I would say politely, just go the other direction. Just hey man, this uh that's just not my thing. Um, and and you know, you're talking about these groups that are being created online that are attracting other young men. The first thing they can do is just not join them, right? They're promoting you know misogynist attitudes toward women, or obviously that like your particular group, uh, and many of these are of course of white males, um is the best, and everybody else is subservient to you, and you know, I mean, you should automatically know that you're in the wrong spot, but the quickest way to get away from that way of thinking is to get away from that way of thinking, right? Just find other friends, man. Uh, it is not gonna, it's not right, which is the first thing, it's also not not right for you. It won't lead you down the right path, and it certainly isn't right for society.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you know, there's one there's one side of this, right, in terms of the the wisdom side of it for sure. Like we talk about, well, sitting around reading encyclopedias isn't helping. Well, no, but you know, interestingly. Yeah, if you try to use it, and that but there's another thing too about like you know, wisdom is not a one-way street, right? Like it doesn't just come in, it goes out, but also um wisdom is also not, especially in today's day and age, like it's it's I always laugh at this idea of like I have a device in my pocket that can tell me the sum of all human knowledge from history, all history, right? But it's also it's it's like a drinking from a fire hose, right? It's just throwing information at you. And you know, one of the things wisdom will do is essentially ask you to question things, right? I mean, Socrates said that, right? Progenitor to stoicism. And so, you know, when you hear some of these things that people say, right? Like, um I'll talk about something from the toxic masculinity world, which is people talk about this whole like alpha, beta, omega thing, right? Which is kind of a it's usually tied to wolves and it's usually tied to like, I don't know, lions and gorillas and things like that. In reality, what we what we do know from science is that, especially with wolves, the whole alpha, beta, omega thing is isn't actually really that real. It's sort of like it's an older concept, it doesn't really exist today. Um, and we know, for example, that especially with wolves, because I actually I saw a talk from a guy who uh who was one he was the key person to reinstitute or or sort of reintroduce wolves to Yellowstone, right? He was talking as well, like that's not it's not really a thing they do that's that's real anymore. Because, for example, if we were to go on this whole masculinity thing, right, then that would mean that there's there's one wolf who kind of runs everything and fights all the battles, and that's not really real. In fact, wolves, North American wolves, right, many times when the if they fight, the male is sort of standing up at the front of the pack, but his his prime like mate is gonna be right with him, sort of protecting his neck or something like that. I can't remember how that works. And it doesn't really matter that information specifically, but what I want people to take away from this is is like, you know, you know, if you're in these groups, if you're hearing this information, like the first thing you can do to better yourself is to, and this is something stoicism, I think, would talk about, as well as as um just Socratic method in general, is vet out the information, check it out, right? Like, is this really what you believe? Is this what you want to believe? Does this resonate with you? Is it real? Because, you know, in some of these spheres, and you know, you're seeing it in documentaries like Manosphere, where it's like it's they're using this terminology that sounds very scientific. This is nature, this is how we're supposed to be. And then when you actually question it, you go, wait a second, that's that's not really right. The wolf thing is special to me. I I have a connection to wolves in my private, like in my private life that I don't really talk about. But um, I love wolves, that I think they're incredibly interesting species. Uh, but at the same time, you know, it's weird because you hear them misuse as this like you know, reason for guys to act certain ways, like, well, I'm an alpha. Well, that's not really a thing, but okay. Um, you know, and that's the thing. So I would say for everybody, right? Like, the best way to check if these things resonate with you is to actually check. Check if they make sense, check if they're real. Because sometimes it's not real. Like we were talking, we had an anti-science episode, right? Where we talked a little bit about um, I think it was vaccines, was sort of when it came up, and like we're talking about misinformation from 60 years ago that's clearly being debunked, and you kind of go, well, you should just check. Anyways, that's a bit of a bit of a ranty type thing, but ultimately I think that's kind of where I think stoicism clearly fights against this kind of thing, is you don't you know you don't operate in a singular mindset, right? So there we go.
SPEAKER_04All right, so uh yeah, there's a level institute right now. Uh so uh we two uh have a fascination. Well wolves are there's a reason to be fascinated, they are incredible. Uh their society is such that I think that's how they became so connected to us. They're actually monogamous, uh, they take care of their elderly, they know who their parents are, um, they take care of their wounded, like they'll get food for them. Uh fascinating, fascinating. And one of my favorite movies, have you ever seen The Gray, by the way? The Gray. Yes, I have.
SPEAKER_01Very good movie.
SPEAKER_04I I I find that a very stoic movie. Uh but I the reason being is like you just never give up. You never give up.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_04That's another another episode, I think, for us. But yeah, yeah, I think it's a great example of yeah, perseverance.
SPEAKER_01But the things that you the things that you just highlighted about wolves, I mean, those those are almost the antithesis of this toxic movement that we've been talking about, right? You know, there's no extreme self-reliance. There's an empathy for for other for other wolves. It's an interesting kind of way to shoot that down. Not that we're trying to shoot somebody's thoughts down, it's just like, you know, clearly it's an incorrect.
SPEAKER_04Um it's actually countering itself, right? It's saying extreme self-reliance and I'm an island, uh, but I need a bunch of people around me to tell me I'm great and to say the same things on my island that I'm by myself, but that I'm self-reliant. But I need you to give me justification for my actions because I'm not really self-reliant. And apparently I don't want to be an island.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we and why don't we talk about that actually? Because, you know, it's come up in this, it's come up in the Misconceptions episode, and we've talked about it, but I think it's important that we talk about it here because there is this self-reliance side that that's what people are vis verbally saying out loud that, you know, you have to be yourself. And stoicism is one that I think is regularly looked at as an independence type thing, right? But um I think we should talk about that a little bit because the toxic masculinity side of it is like, you know, you're your own emperor and you don't count on anybody else and whatnot. But I don't really know that that's what stoicism is saying either. So I'd like your I'd love to hear your take on this idea of self-reliance, the way a Stoic would view it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's I mean, that's an interesting. Like if you think of self-reliance as I am, I serve society better for having more uh self-reliance. I get it. I get, I mean, you know, one of the things that you know, I'm the I'm a trans plant here in Montana. Um, my business partner references a statement I said once when we came back from traveling overseas. And I said, you know, your people, every one of them looks like they could change a tire. And I and I mean that as a compliment, uh, obviously. In other words, like there's a lot of places in society now, at least the US society, especially in urban areas, where people just don't do anything for themselves. They literally order their food that comes pre-prepared, and let's, you know, everything is done. Um and I don't know that's a good thing. I I think that being able to do things yourself, whether it's grow a tomato or you know, if you're a meat eater, um, you know, hunt a deer and clean a deer and dress a deer and cook the deer, right? Yeah, or whatever you're hunting. You get the point. Like, I think that is a positive. And I and I if that's what they're promoting, like self-reliance, like I don't have to rely on somebody else for everything I do, I think that makes a better society personally. Yeah. But if you take it to an extreme and and and you're basically just wanting to isolate yourself, which is a big problem for people that get over, especially males. Um, and I'm not saying I'm immune to that. Um, that's not helpful. That's not helpful. Uh, and and maybe if the only group you can be part of is a stoic group that talks about how you know self-reliance is a good thing, but anything in the extreme, generally speaking, yeah, even exercise can be bad for you. I and I'm all about pushing yourself in exercise, so don't get me wrong. But you get my point. Like being self-reliant is is a good thing, I think. And I have a lot, I have a lot of respect for uh folks that can just like, hey, you know, I need to change the hole in my car, I'm doing it myself. Yeah, I I think that's cool. Uh I I I I had uh, you know, something broke in my house and I fixed it myself. I mean that I think that's good. I think that's really good, and I think we should do more of it. I think I should do more of it. Um, but I think a lot of what they're saying on self-reliance is just not true. They're basically wanting to justify their belief that uh they're superior to everybody else.
SPEAKER_01Right. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's a weird superiority to this that I think is odd that I that has always kind of thrown me. But in terms of self-reliance as well, I I think as well, like what a stoic is looking for in terms of like Pierre Hadeau wrote a very famous book on um Marcus Aurelius and his meditations called The Inner Citadel. And I think that's how I view this self-reliance more myself, which is that you you have the ability to um make decisions and not really fall apart when things go awry because you have built, you know, a strong um citadel. I don't like as a word sometimes because it feels like you're it feels isolationist because you're walling yourself off from something. But I think the foundation that you build within yourself is what is what is meant to be really used here within that terminology. So the self-reliance is like, you know, um when I get the I get this is a very pedestrian example, but I I'm usually the guy who does these. It's like you get the nasty email at work, you're treated poorly by a company, you um, you you lose your jobs, you get rear-ended, right? In many ways for me, self-reliance is this idea that you you are at least in control, not suppression, but in control of yourself enough to know that you can handle these situations. Um, you can handle these situations well. I wouldn't say handle these situations on your own, because I don't think that's true, but it's like it's the self-reliance where it's like, okay, I've had a bad day, right? How am I gonna deal with that? How am I gonna deal with that? And taking responsibility for the actions that we take and taking responsibility for what we do next. That's the way that I see self-reliance in many ways, because like, you know, it's simple when you're a kid, it's not you, you know, something goes wrong and you get caught, and the teacher's like, why did you do that? And it's like, well, Mikey made me do it. Mick made me do this podcast, for example. No, I'm just kidding. But ultimately, that's that thing where you kind of go, but are you like, is that true? Are you taking responsibility, right? What for yourself for the things that you're doing? Um, and I think that's a really uh to me, that I think is a very stoic way to look at it. So that doesn't mean, you know, that like I have a therapist, right? I work through stuff all the time, right? And and those things are normal, but it's more, you know, you use those types of tools as a basis to kind of build up this foundation that you have within yourself. And I think, I think for me, that's the self-reliant part of it. Um, so you know, I think that gets misunderstood though, right? Because people see the innist the inner citadel. I mean, that's been used as a term for a long time, especially with stoicism. And I think people see that and they it goes back to the I am an I am a man on an island type of thing, and you kind of go, well, that's the that doesn't seem right to me. So, but anyways, that that's the way I see self-reliance. You and I both come from you and I both come from backgrounds where I think we always did stuff, just like you were saying. I fixed my sink a couple of weeks ago, you know. Um I like that's part of it too.
SPEAKER_04I mean, self-assessment, which I think is part of self-reliance, is I could do better at that, to be honest. I could, I mean, now you can YouTube everything, uh, instead of just you know getting somebody else to do it. But um, and I think part of self-reliance is just that, right? So if if somebody tells you you did something that wasn't up to par, you should have the ability to go, okay, maybe I did, uh, and look at it objectively. And then if you did, take whether it was intentional or just negligence, accept it and then just yourself. Uh, but uh the on the same token, if you are truly objective and you're just like, No, I didn't, um, then it's that person's issue, right? Right? Right, then this is the bullies, right? That just like to uh, you know, I don't know, accuse people of doing things because they want them to feel bad about themselves. Yeah, if that's the case, if you can, probably shouldn't be around that person. Yeah, that comes from self-reliance. Like you have to be able to do the real assessment. Um, is this person channeling me this uh because uh they want me to be successful in the future? Okay, that's important. Is it accurate? Oh, that's even more important. What am I gonna do to adjust it and am I gonna take responsibility for? And both of those answers, if the answer answers to the first two are true, should be yes, I'm gonna do something about it and I'm gonna acknowledge that I did it. But in the same token, you have to be honest with yourself. If it's just a you know trying to make you feel like uh bad by yourself and it's not accurate, then you should say that and move on. That's my recommendation uh to you. Totally especially, since most of the time we're we are talking to you, but you have to have that honest ability to assess your situation. Uh a quote, since I try to like find a good quote. I think this is a good one.
SPEAKER_01It's quote time with Mick, yeah. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_04How much more harmful are the consequences of the anger than the causes of it, Marcus Aurelius? Right? So you have to you have to be responsible for your own actions. You can't really be responsible for other people's actions. So even if it's a friend who's gone too far, it doesn't mean you gotta follow it. No, right? You can just let it roll off your back and move on. That not that we're keeping score, but my estimation makes you the bigger person. Right. Simply responding in kind isn't a uh positive way to do these.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and as Marcus said, right, the best revenge is not to be like that. But what a I don't like the word revenge in that term because it's scorekeeping, but I I I know what you mean.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there was so I had I also found some uh Yeah, you had some statistics we wanted to talk about.
SPEAKER_01That'd be that'd be interesting. Let's let's take a look.
SPEAKER_04So and this is important to point out if you if there's a a professor named Scott Galloway that really dives deep into this, and I think his his information is very helpful. It's not about I think where where some groups go wrong is they look at it as competition. So because of the liberation of women, which is obviously a great thing, that has been promoted in stoicism since its foundation, way before this was even talked about, right? Oh, yeah, in in the BC, in the BCE for your cool kids. Um the the uh that's great. And of course, as soon as women were allowed to compete on an equal footing, they do really well. Because we all know they're very smart, generally speaking. Again, generalization, but it's a positive one, so I'm using it. Um But the we do have to be concerned, therefore, that uh a lot of males are not going in the right direction. So we want to promote everybody, right? So uh the amount of the percentage of males in college now has gone down dramatically. Uh like I the one stat that he has is uh oh, that's the labor force, we'll get there. Um, but right now we're only at 42% of college students are males. And I'm not talking about you know creating some quota system at all. But we probably one, we should talk about well, maybe that's because they realize that going to college isn't the end all be all. Right. If that's the case, okay. Maybe we shouldn't worry about it so much. Maybe they're going to get a trade, you know, which uh I mean you can logically go, well, maybe it is better to get a trade than to go get you, you know, the to be the you know, another person with a liberal arts degree that can't find a job that goes and becomes a barista, right? So nothing against baristas. Um, but you get my point. So but if it is an issue where men are just opting out of education, I think we should address it. It's not to say that we're not super happy that females are now crushing it, uh, but it doesn't mean we want to leave uh the men behind. And then this is translating to, and this is another, this I think all comes from Galloway's statistics, the labor force participation in men 25 to 34 has fallen by over 700 work, this is in America, uh fewer men than working today than in 2004.
SPEAKER_01Boy, that's not a that's not a small number.
SPEAKER_04Right, because we have more people since 2004, but we have 700,000 less men in the workforce that to think about that. Right. It's that's not good. Um 11% of prime age men are not in the workforce at all. That's double since 1960. Okay, and what else? So you got education, now you got jobs, uh death, deaths by despair, which I guess is another way of saying suicide. Um three out of four deaths by suicides are male. Males are four times more likely to kill themselves than women. Suicides by young men, and this is probably the statistic I I will stop on, have gone up 26% in 13 years.
SPEAKER_01And I think, you know, when you see numbers like that start to come out, you get to this point where you go, oh, this is this is I to me, this is actually a direct result of this. Of toxic movement that's been going forward, right? Because my other thing is that um it's preaching something that's kind of un not real, it's not really unattainable. And so, you know, a lot of people feel despair because of job stuff, right? Like I don't have a great job or something like that. I'm working, but I'm not I don't have a cool job, I'm not a leader. And um, you know, I hear that a lot from people, especially especially young men. I do mentor as much as I can in the in the engineering work that I do. And I think it's one of those things where, you know, I don't think it's uh I I I'm not sure I can describe a causal link here where it's definitely causal, but I think you can correlate that there's definitely a trend like toxicity going up, deaths by this bear going up. I wouldn't be surprised if they were connected. Um, because again, also it's that whole exclusionary sort of us versus them thing. You're either winning because you're a toxic male or you're not. That's right. I don't think that's a good place for us to be in.
SPEAKER_04Right. Um the other aspect of that is are these things happening because of these movements, or are these movements happening because of these things? And what I mean by that is men are brought up, and I'm that's it's not a negative, that they're supposed to be the provider and the protector. I think that's a positive trait for nails. Let's say they can be the only provider, but you should want to be a provider. I mean, or else you're just a consumer, right? Um, you should want to be a protector, not somebody that just has to be protected.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Because you can't have you can't have everybody that's a consumer and a protectee, right? Uh that's not gonna work. Um so that's not a bad thing. And I'm not saying it's exclusive to males, but it is something that males believe in their heart, I think, that they are supposed to be. Yeah, and if they can't do that anymore, because they can't get into college because they're not that interested in in a lot of the courses that go into college, and then they can't get a job or they don't feel like the job's you know taking them anywhere, and then they can't have a family, so then they're not a provider and a protector. So then what are they? And then they go to find other men like themselves to try to justify why they are where they are. It's more of a symptom than a cause.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And I think society's job is is not just to go, okay, you group of people suck. It's like, well, why are you doing that? And what what can we do to change your perspective and get you on the right track?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04It's easy just to chastise people for you know behavior that's counter uh productive. So I think we need to look at that, and again, not to change it so that females do less well. We should all promote the idea that females are doing really well. Um but we should say, okay, what are we gonna do so that males also are progressing? Uh, because these these stats, unless they're wrong, I don't believe they are wrong, I've never seen anybody debate these stats.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Oh, here's another, here's it gets worse. I mean, it doesn't get worse than suicide, but um, one in four men under 30 report having no close friends.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_04Like that used to be unheard of. Like even like introverts like myself had friends, close friends. Now there's a whole group, and some people might not even understand know this because they come from my generation or older, or your generation or older. Yeah, but they don't realize what's going on under us. Like, there's a lot of people that are just they their their relationships are um just online, they're not real. They don't really actually go have coffee with people or drink a beer with people, they don't go to parties, like people don't go to parties. I mean, I heard somebody promote it like we need to start drinking again, and if and it's a headline grammar because you're like, I'm sure that's a good thing. Well, the per their point wasn't actually alcohol consumption. We need to be totally alcohol consumption has drop dramatically gone down because people are socializing, right? Yeah, you see, it's so it's it's an issue. If and then you're gonna add AI as a substitute for a real relationship. That's coming and we all know it. Um it's it's really on people, I think, to to address this now. Absolutely. Wait till it's a complete crisis.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I think you know, the the one challenge you get with this, you know, toxic masculinity sphere that people are talking about all the time as well is they sell a lot of like fast, fast fixes to it, right? Like, you know, go to the gym. Not that I'm against going to the gym, but like go to the gym, you know, trade on the market, you know, invest in my Bitcoin thing or whatever, right? I'm not even gonna get into Bitcoin. I think it's ridiculous. But, you know, the one thing that, you know, I think stoicism counters with this is this idea of you've got to be asking yourself, like, am I living well or not? Am I trying to do a fast fix or a shortcut or you know, go around, go around the normal way to do something, right? Why am I doing that? Is it working? Is it helping? Is it doing something right? And you gotta ask yourself that question. Because I think one of the reasons why so many people aren't going to university is because they're sold on this idea of like, you know, I've got a Twitch account and I play video games online and I talk about you know why I'm a really strong man, and then um, you know, I get a lot of likes and I get the occasional bit of money that comes in. But ultimately that's that's a that's a short-term fix for a thing that's a lot bigger than that. Your life, your goals, your vocation, your career, your um, you know, what you do with your time on this earth, you know, if that doesn't get solved by having a really great Twitch account, right? Not to not to slam Twitch, but you know what I mean? It's like what is Twitch? I don't even know who it's Twitch is uh Twitch is a platform, it's kind of like um it's a live streaming platform for video gamers. Wow. So it's so you get people who get paid to play video games and people watch them play. It's kind of like um if you were if you were to watch somebody make something in a woodworking shop live, but just imagine it's a video game instead. It's easier with video games because it's just you stream it from your computer. It's a streaming platform, so it's kind of like YouTube, but it's far more it's done in the live sense more. But the thing is, is I think so much of this is sold as like a quick fix, like, you know, be aggressive, be assertive, go to the gym, invest in Bitcoin, your life will be better. And you kind of go like, is it better? And I think that's something that we have to think about here, right? Like um, people are being sold this short-term gain thing, which is not really helping. Like the number of like, you know, there are lots of other websites out there for doing stuff, right? Like, you know, ones with the initials OF or ones with the you know, YouTube or Twitch or whatever. Those sites are great, and we use those sites ourselves. You know, you and I use YouTube to promote the podcast and get ourselves out there, but ultimately it's meant to be like an added thing with our conversations. It's not meant to be the solution that kind of you know solves all of your problems. In reality, the the problems are still there, right? Like the, you know, um ultimately stoicism comes down where you're looking for eudaimonia, right? You're looking to for living with arete, with virtue. Like that's the key thing. Are you doing that with your clickbait video on TikTok? I don't I don't know that that's really working. And unfortunately, I think we're underserving this population of young people. Men are a huge part of that. I think women as well, young women as well, but ultimately you're in a spot where people are being underserved and over oversold on this idea that you can do these quick fixes and you know upgrade your life. And it's like, well, life human life isn't really as that different when you look at it at the basics. It's not really as differ that different since it was when we started walking upright 400,000 years ago or whatever it was, right? So I think uh we have to be very careful with some of these things when they come forward. And I think you're right, we have to take some actions on this. I don't know what that is, right? But we have to take some actions on this because I I feel I feel I I really feel for some of the young men out there that I mentor where it's like, you know, I I would struggle too. You're being told that you're not good enough because you're not aggressive. Well, that's a very weird place to be in.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. And uh let's let's remember that, you know, from whatever the ills of the past are not the responsibility of the kid that just got here. Yeah, exactly. So let's let's not pent up all of our um I don't know.
unknownI don't know what they're doing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we're not blaming we're definitely not blaming young people. If I think you're gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_04Well, it's just that you know, I've I've heard white males tell me, well, you know, when I say anything about any anything that I feel it's negative, they they basically I basically college it all like it is well, you're a white male, so you're just super privileged and uh you've always had everything and we've had nothing, so shut up. Um right, you know, all that does is make people one, just stop engaging because yeah, sure. You've shut them down. They can't it's again, it's it's it's the it's it's doing the same thing that they claim that they were against, right? It's I'm looking at your skin color and your gender, and I'm saying that I've decided that you're this because of the intangible attributes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, that's exactly what the other side did that you were against. So if you're gonna be the same as them, then you're just fucked up, to be honest. So yeah, what I'm what I'm saying is we should identify this as an issue in in these these toxic groups as symptoms.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Not something to just to be criticized and ostracized, but to be understood so that we can help turn these young, in this case, males, around.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, understood so they can be addressed. Yeah, so we can debunk it. Well, I think that's a good place for us to stop today on this episode. We've just had a week off as well. So uh, you know, welcome back after a week's hiatus, uh, Mick. But um, yeah, I think this is another one where we'd love to hear from the community. So uh, you know, feel free to write us info at pubandporch.com. Um, leave a comment on the video. Um, we really would like to hear from the community of men and women out there who practice this philosophy or are just coming to it, because this is uh I think this topic we talked about today is one that's going to resonate for a long time going into the future. And uh I'd love to see us be able to turn it around, both for those of us who are like Mick and I in a certain age category, but also for those young people who are coming up into the world today. Any closing thoughts from yourself today, Mick?
SPEAKER_04Uh no, this is one of the main things that I think helps connect stoicism from the past to stoicism in the future, and why we call this supplied stoicism. So I guess I did have a closing thought.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I totally agree with that. All right, Mick, we'll see you on the next one. Cheers.
SPEAKER_04Salacha. Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for Stoicism, send it to us and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Today's music was provided by BenSound.com. Until next time, puppin' Porch Outhee.