Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Peercy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. My name is Adam Pearcy, and I'm here with my co-host Mick Mulroy. Today we're going to jump definitely right into it because this is a topic that we're both excited to talk about, which is uh stoicism as a street philosophy. Um, I think it's something that's unique to this philosophy in many ways. It's uh something that's unique to why we started this podcast and really what we're trying to do as opposed to what we're trying to not do. So um I know Mick has opening thoughts on this one, and I'd love to hear an opening salvo from uh from Mick on this one. So, Mick, why don't you kick us off today?
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, Adam. So uh I mean you you said it, it's why we started the podcast, because this philosophy, I think, more so than uh many others, really is about practical application. It's about how to deal with things that come up in life uh in a manner um that's more productive for you and for those you interact with in society, right? And I will go through the uh why we think that's the case, but I think it's you know, for those that are familiar with stoicism, I also think it's like, yeah, no kidding, right? Um so as as you as some that might be listening, I grew up with a lot of academics. My dad was a scientist and a professor. Um, certainly uh love the academic aspect. It'd probably like to end um, you know, my career in some form or fashion in academia. But what I don't think is helpful is for a philosophy just to be tied up in you know the ivory tower, so to speak, uh, because it does uh the least amount for the least amount of people that way. Again, nothing against academics uh from them. But uh stoicism started, as we all know, from based primarily on the fact that uh a businessman had gone through uh such a uh tumultuous event that he was basically no longer a businessman because all of his stuff sunk to the bottom of the ocean right off the coast of Piraeus. Then he came to shore, found Socrates, our godfather, um, who exemplified, I think, in many ways, the practical application of his philosophy, his way of thinking. Yeah. Uh, and then um basically became a cynic. And a cynic at the time was demonstrably on the streets, right? I mean, that's where they literally lived on the streets. Um, so it wasn't just you know something that his version, which was to meet on the streets, right, at the Stoa, at the porch, uh, vice the the you know Plato's academy, these so the academy, vice um the Lyceum, you know, Aristotle, which was a place for academia, maybe the beginning of academia. Um stoicism started by meeting people in the place where they lived, in the agora on the porch. And um, as it was told to me, it was often then followed by walking around Athens and up in the mountains around Athens, which I used to do all the time when I lived there. It's great trail running, great trail running races around there. Uh, but there's a lot of key landmarks that because Greece is so full of just major historic events, which seem like a major historic landmark that people just don't even pay attention to about. But I used to think when I'd rerunning and I'd see uh like there was one place where the person who saw uh the battle down in Marathonos would um light a torch to say if if they weren't successful, they were coming toward Athens, right? Which, as you all know, is around 26 miles away. Um but you know, I would I would see that and say, well, I wonder if, and it was a path, and it probably was a path at the time, right, to get up to the watch post. I think maybe they walked up here, right? Why not? It's a path, it goes to the top of the mountain, it's within sure distance of Athens. So I bring that up because I've always viewed it uh as a philosophy for people who are very much engaged in the world, businessmen, obviously, businessmen that lose everything, have term, have you know, you know, a an issue that they have to deal with. Soldiers, right? We all know, of course, Marcus Aurelius, but you could go down to every one of his legionnaires, everything they had to deal with, whether they were going to be courageous enough in battle uh to meet the mark of a legionnaire. Um, almost all of them are Stoics, right? And that that that, of course, is carried throughout history with the connection between the military uh and stoicism. But I also think scientists, scientists, especially practical ones, engineers um like yourself, um, they very much have to make things happen. It's not just theoretical, right? It's taking, and you can correct me if I'm wrong if I'm kidding, but you know, the way I always viewed engineers is they take a lot of theory and make it into practical application, right? Um that I imagine is very difficult and very challenging. And you find out, and you either win, you either succeed or you don't. Um, and you could go down the list, and obviously, and then athletes, athletes is uh, but you talk about some immediate feedback. If you're running a race, you either win or you don't. It's kind of hard to hard to talk your way into uh a win, right? So it's it's very um, and I've always thought that's that is really the essence of the philosophy. It's you know, um deal with what you can, accept what you can't, uh, you know, it's not up to you, and then live virtuously, right? And you can pontificate about the meaning of life, absolutely, like a lot of other philosophies do, and so does Stoicism, but it's also very much how to live your life on a day-to-day basis. And I think that's what we're trying to, not that we've me and you've figured it out. Um, we're just two dudes talking about it. But that's I think what stoicism is ultimately about. It's not to be locked up in an ivory tower, it's not to just talk about the same individuals, as important as they are. It isn't just to talk about you know, Zeno, Epictetus, Seneca, uh Aurelius, as if um it's not a living, breathing uh philosophy. You know, our last episode was about the next phase of stoicism. Uh that's what I think it is about. It is it is something for people in everyday life, and it's something for them to essentially own personally and drive it forward.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I totally agree. And when you look at it in a historical context, right? Like um, you have um you have um uh in like when during Roman times, the re reason why Stoicism rose in Roman times was because you know, Stoics had been prominent philosophers for um emperors and leaders and high businessmen and stuff like that for many years. But what what also happened was was there was this like cultural envoy from Greece that went to Rome. And one of the big things that they did with that envoy was that Greek philosophers, including Stoic philosophers, were lecturing to the people of Rome in the street, in like uh it was near the forum. I know that. I I don't know exactly where. Um, even though I was at the forum recently, I I don't know exactly where it was, but there was definitely this thing about talking to the people of Rome and discussing the philosophy in that context, right? And stoicism, I don't know that it's unique in that, but I know that it's definitely a key tenet for us is that we we want to talk about it. I mean, the name Stoa, Stoic comes from a stoa, which is a covered porch, which in the agora, the marketplace in Athens, was where they met. And frankly, I think anybody could show up, right? And that's the thing. Is you're talking about it, you know, from a perspective of people that aren't professional philosophers. They're not selling their sophistry or philosophical wares, as it were, to emperors and kings and whichever they are. They're meeting to discuss how to live and then living it. And that's a very that's something that is at least somewhat unique to the practice, I think, in its own way. I struggle, I always struggle with the more um, I don't want to say academic, but the ones where they're very austere and they, you know, like there are as far as I can tell, there aren't any stoic monks, like, you know, we're not lim, you know, stoics are married, they have kids, they have lives, they usually have a career that's running parallel to their practice. And that's that's what the street life is like, right? Like you try to be a good person, but you also have to hawk fish heads or shovel coal or work in a mine, or be an extra person or be a yeah, make a living, be a soldier like yourself, as you were before, right? So it's one of those things, I think. So but um I think as well, though, the what I see as well is that when you look at the history of stoicism, and and there's a great bit about this in um some of the books by Donald Robertson and uh Ryan Holiday, is that essentially the writings kind of point to the fact that like most prominent philosophies from the the Grecian period talk about three things. There's um uh there's logos, ethos, and then there's another one that I can't remember um right now because I'm talking about it and my I lost my train of thought. But the Stoics were kind of saying in their own writings and whatnot, like the one that really only matters is ethics, how you live your day, how you go about day to day, right? So it's it's not it's not that they didn't have oh, physics, that's the one. Logos, physics, and ethics, right? And it's not like they did said that logos and physics was not important, but the emphasis is clearly on the ethics side of it, i.e., what is your outward living going to be like, right? And um I think the discussion of things that are metaphysical, right? The physics and logos that you see in all philosophies usually is useful, but at the same time, I think it's a practical application of philosophy that is ethics, and that's where the stoics definitely, you know, put most of their focus.
SPEAKER_00And if you get that right, that's the most important, right? Because how you how you conduct yourself reflects on uh you, your family, your friends, your society.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So those that if if we all agree to, and you know, stoics are pretty specific about you know the virtues, right? Wisdom, justice. Yeah, uh I always say self-defence, but temperance, uh self-discipline rather, but temperance um and justice, right? If you have that down, uh you're gonna make for a good citizen and and the citizens will make for a good society. Uh but you're right. Uh we also talk about physics, which to me is like a keen interest in the natural world, uh I'll uh put simply, is that we're all amateur scientists, uh so to speak, um pursuing wisdom. And then and the stoics did talk about the metaphysical, that they did talk about uh the beginning at least, you know, yeah, their view of God, which I've always found fascinating, and I would say is probably more of a modern way to view uh for those who uh uh you know uh believe in a God. I mean the Stoics believed God was essentially everything, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, their dadheists believe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the way my dad put it is the Stoics believed that didn't believe that God was the watch maker, they believed he or she was the watch, right? So everything, like everything's composed, um, you know, like your body, right? You don't know what's going on in your left pinky uh right now, um, but it's really important to your left pinky, right? So it's like if you get if you get the example, right? So it's like everything is part of the whole, and the whole is what um I think they refer to as a God, right? Which became very different, you know, later with the Judeo-Christian uh and other religions. Uh but of course you can be, you can be, uh and I I know many, as you might guess, uh Catholics that are Stoics. Right. They've uh in Christianity, I think, incorporated a lot of the philosophy of Stoicism into especially its early version of Christianity. It was actually people who posed as famous uh stoics, like the false Zeno, if you're if you've read about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've only barely heard about this. It's a very interesting topic though.
SPEAKER_00We should probably do a whole episode on that. I have a friend that'd be interesting uh has focused on that as a Christian, and as someone I think he would call himself a stoic, but he's he's actually spent some time on that. But um so I'm not saying that it doesn't talk about the big lofty concepts of why are we here and is there something after uh life? Um but it's most philosophies do talk about that, but most philosophies don't talk about you need to journal every day so that you're keeping yourself honest, adhering to the principles you claim to you know, believe in.
SPEAKER_01Push yourself on something hard every day, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, how many other philosophies got directly incorporated into a uh psychotherapy system? Yes, if that's the correct term.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, because stoicism was used by the creator of REBT, Rational Motive Behavior Therapy, and then that ended up getting mer becoming sort of uh streamlined into the CBT, the cognitive behavioral therapy. And Donald Robertson has a great book about um CBT and the philosophy that it comes from, which uh that shows how practical it is. Exactly. And I think you know, you can take clear examples, right? Like, so we're talking about the pantheism of um stoics, you know, when you think about it as well, um, Hieracles and his circles of influence, right, as concentric circles, right, are intended to kind of give us the ability to understand where we fit in the great machinery of the universe, right? We're we're the inner circle, the innermost circle, and they go out and out and out. And and to Stoics, God is kind of throughout all of it, right? And and understand that if if there is a God and it's working throughout everything, there's stuff we have control over and stuff we don't. And it's it's in many ways, I feel like that's one of the key things that makes it a philosophy is it's giving us this perspective of finding out where we fit the g where which cog in the chain are we? And I think that you you don't see that through everything else. So much, so many, so many philosophies or or philosophies that have now become religions in a way, right? They they they struggle with telling people how to try and use it like right now, so or tomorrow, right? And I think humanity in general is looking for that in a way, right? We're always looking for that, you know. Victor Frankel, right, Man's Search for Meaning, right? I mean, that's a thing that we're trying to do every day.
SPEAKER_00Phenomenal book everybody should read.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, absolutely. So I wanted to talk quickly as well, because you mentioned the cynics, and I thought there was an interesting story about this, right? So the cynics, in some ways, I feel like the cynics struggle at being of street philosophy because they're like, we live in jars and we go to the loo whatever we want, right? Which is not really, really I that's I don't buy that as a thing that that we shall be trying to do. But um, they do have one thing, for example, right? Which is like, how do you teach yourself humility? And they're like, walk around with like stinky cheese and in a public place and learn to be okay with the fact that people are gonna judge you because of it and just learn to be okay with that. And um, you know, this while the cynics and stoics, they're not rivals, but they're like parallel streams happening at the same time. Stoics actually did look at Diogenes the Cynic, for example, as an example of someone who they would like to be more like. Do they all want to live in jars? Probably not. But did they want to have the ability to um be able to say, look, I can't control what other people think about me, so I'm gonna focus on what I can control? Absolutely. And I think there's that's the kind of applied practice that we see where you know not everybody gets that. No, I'm not suggesting walking around with stinky cheese. Um I haven't tried it, I'm not sure I would. But um, I think it's one of those things of like, you can you can you I think the stoics in many ways look at some of these things like a muscle where they're thinking about it like you've got to practice it, you've got to do it, you've got to like Marcus clearly says, like, stop reading and just do it. Um I'm paraphrasing that.
SPEAKER_00But it gives you the ability to say good uh quote for what we're talking about.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely, right? It's like, you know, at some point you have to stop reading the book, right? You gotta go out and do it. And I think you know, that's the application of it that that many people struggle with. Um I will say one last thing, which is that I'm an atheist, right? And I'm very I'm if I would say people describe me as spiritual, and I would say that's probably true, but I find a home within stoicism for myself as much as for people who are Catholics, like you said, or Christians, or you know, um, people from any of the Judeo Christian religions and other religions as well, right? So you know it's if it's a street philosophy, would say it again.
SPEAKER_00It's not exclusive, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_01No, exactly. It's far more inclusive than I think people realize. People we we've we've done the talk about misconceptions, but it's this is not a old white guy kind of tradition, I don't find.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and to go back to uh which I think is a really good point, and I don't know for sure, but I always had the impression that Zeno, when he started as a cynic, and I think there's a lot of the it's not anti-materialism and stoicism, but certainly not emphasizing it as importance that I think probably came from that, right? Um, you know, the people that used to live on the streets and um on purpose, right? So not because they had to. I think I'm guessing, and maybe there's some evidence to this, but that he realized essentially the only way you could be a true cynic is if somebody else is willing to give you food and stuff, right? So it's it's it's it's I'm that guessing that's why he probably uh took some of the good parts of it and left the rest. Because the only way that at least my understanding of how the cynics lived back then to be real would be to mooch off of society. Yeah, to be frank, you know, and that's that only works if somebody's willing to, you know, basically take care of you. Uh because you can't, you can't, if you're not willing to work, farm, or labor for somebody else to get money to buy food for your family and all that stuff. You know, talk about society not working, right? That wouldn't if if everybody was doing that, right? Uh that ain't gonna work. Um, so I think there is some parts of stoicism that came from it, again, the anti-material, well, not anti, but not de-emphasis on materialism. I think they were actually anti-materialism. Um, but that's the practical application is okay, but you still gotta make your own way and take care of your own self and take care of your own family. Yeah, um, and that means you gotta work. And if you're gonna work, you're gonna engage in society. Uh so I I do think uh usually, unless you can figure out how to do that without engaging in society. But I I do think that stoicism ultimately is how to do that in a manner that's best for you and best for society. Um, and that's why it talks a lot about anger, right? Managing anger, which is a problem for a lot of people. We all have, you know, at our roots, um, you know, the fight or flight response is probably never gonna go away. Right? It's just evolutionarily embedded in us. That's not always a good thing in society where you have to deal with somebody that you normally in the old times would want to punch, right? Um, can't do that. Can't do that, it's not good, just like your mom said, uh, especially when you become an adult. Um, so it's it's a very practical way of dealing with your own ability to control anger. And um, that's why a lot of people get into stoicism, I think. When I talk to people, and I've mentioned this, I go, I do national security stuff, as you know, uh, and any of our listeners probably uh know. Uh so I go to all these conferences and summits, and it's almost every time I've had actually. Every time since probably the last two years, somebody's come up to me where I think they're going to ask me about what is what's going to happen in the war of blah. And they go, You're the stoic guy.
SPEAKER_01People always ask me about aliens. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, they know you're the space guy. Um, but I'm I'm expecting them to ask something that has to do with the agency or whatever. Yeah. Um national security. And and and it just happened last month. I told you. We're we're training a bunch of um SEALs. Uh we do tactile training for all the special operations unit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And when we had our barbecue at the end, had five different people come up to me and ask about our podcast, which I thought was really cool. Um, but it shows me these are young, young uh they're obviously warriors, but you know, certainly from our perspective, young people, right? They're early 20s, right? Which the older you get, it's like, wow. Um I remember that age. But to be like in, you know, think about all the stuff they have going on there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Young uh special operators doing their doing their part, trying to and they still took taking the time to listen uh to a podcast. It could be any podcast, it could and they all listen to Ryan's podcast, for example. I mean, he's sure leading the way. But my point of bringing it up is people want this philosophy for their own benefit. They they must have value in it. And I think that is incredibly uh important for a philosophy to have, where people feel it has direct application to their daily life, and not just some theoretical thing they're gonna talk about in one of their you know graduate level classes that they can talk about at a party one day that they took, you know, uh they took this course in, you know, uh advanced philosophy. This is something that everybody, whether you're a ditch digger or uh uh you know, a general or a CEO or a uh space scientist, can take in their own life and say this matters to me because it has a direct application of what I do and how I live.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure. And I think you know, when you juxtapose stoicism with something of its own time like like cynicism, right? I think cynicism has many aspects to it that I think are useful, but are also very antisocial, right? And stoicism, I I think in many ways was literally trying to flip that on its head. You know, we like stoicism clearly says, and Ryan talks has talked about this in this couple of his podcasts recently, where it's like stoicism is very clearly like you should be doing something. Like it is your duty to go out and vote. If we're talking about how what can I do that's to better my society, go out and vote, be active in your community, right? Yes. Um, what can I do to better, you know, my my um interactions with other right, others, right? It's like you know, be you know, show justice and benevolence towards them, work on your anger, things like that, right? So, you know, there's that sometimes like um I do have a Zen part of practice to my practice personally, um, and that's because I I in some ways I was looking for something that could let me think about bigger issues, right? But at the same time, sometimes you struggle because you can't really like some of these questions are very open-ended and they're meant to open your mind, right? But then it's like, well, how do I apply that day to day? And I'm not faulting Zen, I'm just saying it's a different approach to life, right? And and Zen does have practical stuff to it, which is why I think it actually runs very parallel to Stoicism, but there are times where it's it's definitely pushing your your brain into a very high space. But stoicism has always felt to me to be the one where it's like, well, how do we how do I do this now or tomorrow or later today? And I think you know that comes up. I think in the world that it was developing in as well, right? Not to go too much in history, right? It's you know, you've got you've got stoics, you've got cynics, there's something in the middle which is like a peripatetic, I think I uh is the one of the other ones. And then you've also got just straight up sophists who basically believe in the spoken word, right?
SPEAKER_00And you know, I think manipulate people with it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, how to manipulate people with it, right? And Stoics are sitting there being like, if it's not true, don't say it. Like if that's literally that's in meditations, right? And so the the practical application of it is key. I mean, it's kind of you know, for for us someone who works in the applied sciences, right? Engineering, and uh and someone who who has lived lived uh in many ways a very applied lifestyle work, you know, in the stuff that you've done in your own life, Mick. Um, it's in many ways, I think it's like it's very common sense that we would have come to this, right? Because it makes sense to us. But you know, but I guess a question I'd love to ask you is like, what sort of practical things do you think that someone from the outside of stoicism world um would see first for it? Do you think, or value they might find from it? Because I'd loved it an episode where we get a couple of newbies in. Because I have some friends who started listening to the podcast because of me, and then they're like, wow, I didn't know this was what it was about. And I'm and I've keep I keep holding back this question, which is like, what did you find out first, right? What do you think? Like, what do you think someone from the outside would see first from a practice?
SPEAKER_00That's a good question because I've always been you've always been in it. I've always been in it. So I know that most most people I talk to are coming to it. They have some familiarity, potentially in school, or just some reference. I mean, everybody's watched Gladiator, right? So sure. Um yeah. I mean, it's true, right? It's uh because you know, they go, Who is this kid guy? And then they Google uh Aurelius, and then they that's a lot of people well obviously, but a lot of people that's their first, you know, oh, stoicism. That guy was a stoic. Um, you know, so I would like to know more. I I do hear they usually bring up um people that come up to me are a certain type, usually, and it's usually military people. Uh so they've always been familiar with it the day they join the military because it is it's it is part of the resilience of every branch of the service in the United States, like officially um stoicism. One, because it's I guess you can make everything controversial, but stoicism generally isn't controversial. Like, what's to be controversial about it, right? I mean, you have to really dig deep. You're like, oh, you don't like wisdom, you don't like you know, I mean, what is it that you don't like about it? So, and it's not a religion, right? So it's not like you're trying to hoist a belief system on somebody. Um not that there's anything wrong with religion, but yeah, yeah, just a different approach, right? Secular society, they can't promote, they're not supposed to, I mean, current uh, you know, uh not supposed to push one secretary uh uh excluded from that. But people generally don't have an issue whether you're religious or non-religious, learning about stoicism because it is a it's just it's a philosophy, it's a private philosophy. I'd like to hear, I think, I think people usually start, and I don't mean this in a conceded way, but themselves. The aspect of stoicism that's about fixing your stuff. But and that's kind of the way it should start, because if you can't get your own stuff in order, um then how much are you going to really contribute to society in a way that's positive? Yeah, right. So, and I'm you know, Mia Copa, I'm I'm a stoic that benefits from stoicism, but I don't know that I uh exemplify every aspect. So you know, I do a lot of uh TV uh appearances on national security, right? Uh generally speaking, it's and I've been doing it for eight years. And I uh, you know, I obviously belong to a network, a US network, but I do a lot of foreign ones this is going somewhere, just give me a second. Do a lot of foreign ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The foreign ones are more challenging, right? Because I am on with Russians, with Iranians, with Chinese as the counter. And I've been doing for many years, and I can disagree with people generally speaking without making it personal or getting angry. Um but recently I was on with, and we're at war with them, but I was on with an Iranian uh who right in the middle of me answering the 15th question about something that the president of my country tweeted, um, which obviously I was opposed to talking about destroying civilizations, um, the person interrupted me and then started going after the U.S. military as a bunch of coward warmongers, blah, blah, blah. You know, this is a country that just approved 12-year-olds fighting for them, by the way.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00I saw red, I turned back into the Irish-American Marine, and I got pissed. And I think if if you'd ever seen the video, you'd go, whoa. Um so and I say that um, I will I will not bring that link. The opposite of bragging. Uh, it was uh, you know, I got off the thing, I was like, God dang it, you know, here I am. Yeah, I am a stoic, not a perfect one. Right, but that's a terrible example. And yeah, I was telling him that he was I I went back at him, put it that way. This is a guy who uh, you know, he could have been in a uniform fighting back, but he was, you know, sending 12-year-olds out to fight for him and uh talking about how the U.S. military is coward. So not to not to get into the substance of the disagreement, but the point of me bringing it up was uh I lost my temper. Yeah. And uh so it's it's a it's a forever philosophy, is my point. The point isn't to say I lost my temper. I guess I'm not really a stoic, so I'm just moving on. The point is I lost my temper. That's not what I say I'm about. I can't actually you know be successful in a debate if I'm you know running around like a silverback gorilla. I need to take what I did, adjust it, not do it again. Yeah, that's my point of bringing up that.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, for sure. And I and you know, you and I have had this uh discussion a little bit before, and we talked actually, we have an episode called Struggling to be a stoic. It was one of our first ones because actually at the time I think I was struggling with that, with something at that time. I did have that, yeah. Yeah, I think you know, I was one of those as well that came to it. I'd actually already I was like you, we in a weird way, you and I have a funny parallel here because um my parent, my my mother was an academic in like anthropology and whatnot, and the classics were always in my house. I just never picked one to kind of follow, you know. And then, you know, the the simple story for me was 10 years ago I got divorced and I was in a very dark place and I was trying to figure out how to get out of that hole, right? And you're you know, I knew I knew of some of these things, and I was like, well, wait a second, this is how I want to be. This is that's what I want to be like, and then I was like, oh, well, this is my thing. So I agree with you. I think a lot of people get it started from the personal side where they go, oh, well, this is kind of telling me something that I want to be like, so maybe it'll help me be more like that, right? And I think that's where it really is a street thing, right? Because it's like uh classic example. We've talked about this before, but you know, Marcus starts his day writing in his journal saying, Today you will meet sycophants, narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, right? Like, you know, this long list. I'm being very extreme in that, but he's listing off all these people, right? Busybodies, back talkers, whatever. You just kind of have to be ready that that's gonna happen, right? I think the one thing about stoicism that I enjoy, which sounds weird, but I'll explain it. I think uh one thing about stoicism that I enjoy is that it's not a glossed over thing. We don't talk about the hopeful, we don't like well, Marcus clearly says, like, no, you know, we're not don't expect Plato's republic, right? We're not in we're not live, and actually they all say it in some form, we're not living in a perfect society. It would be weird to expect that it would be like that. We are striving to be better. We'd love to be in a perfect society one day, but ultimately we're human beings, and this is what happens. And so that's why when you or I have faltered, I faltered in a couple of weeks ago where I lost it on somebody and I shouldn't have. Um, you know, we we can also take from the philosophy that like we are human, emotions are normal, something that happens. You can't change the past, but you can be better for the future from it, right? Yeah, and totally I think so. I think that just resonates with so many people. Um, again, I don't think you and I are elevating stoicism as being above others. I think it's just pointing out that it's this aspect of the philosophy that I think resonates with us and with others, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and I don't think there's any benefit to trying to like make it a competition, right? Um if if another philosophy helps you, you know, good on you. That's great. Uh, but if this philosophy I think helps a lot of people, and I think it's gonna help a lot more. So part of the and part of it is expanding it. And although we're never gonna live in an ideal society, the founder of Stoicism laid out what he thought was an ideal society, which even today would be pretty, I mean, pretty ambitious. Yes. All right. So uh, and if we're all wanting to be part of something like that, I think that would be better for everybody. Um, so I yeah, I I find it to be something that keeps me honest too. There's another and you know, you know, the thing aspect about stoicism, yeah, and people bring it up a lot. You could be the CEO of a uh Fortune 100 company and be a stoic. And there's a lot of them, actually. So when you go to these conferences, there's a lot of really successful business persons. Uh why? I think, and I've asked them, is you know, they've done really well at that, but they want more. And they want more, it doesn't mean material stuff, it means more out of life. That's like the universal response. Not that I am one of them or can speak for them.
SPEAKER_01Oh but that's not.
SPEAKER_00Well, all right, but I mean that's but they tell me, and I'm like, wow, okay. So I and I've talked and they often bring in stoics, um, yeah, people call themselves stoics, uh, to talk. So that's how I met them. Uh and then obviously we already talked about the military, but there's another guy named Andy Smalls who spoke at a uh conference that I was at. He is uh one of the head um, I don't know what their uh title is, but like administrators of the UK prison system. And he has brought Stoicism into prison and uh used it as one of the means to stop the recurrence of criminals, right? So that they don't just get out and end up right back where they uh were. Uh it's been very successful. They've expanded it, and actually, if you go through the course now, I'm told that it gives you get essentially credit um you know when it comes to time served. And it has a very low recidivism rate for people who went through the course. And now one of the and I apologize for not remembering the other, I didn't haven't met him, but he's he was a student of Andy's who's now the biggest proponent of it. So he was in prison.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now uh so it's not just for the CEOs at generals, it's for the privates, it's for the laborers, it's for even folks, it's for the alcoholics. I mean, read the the the prayer for the alcoholics. You can't get much more stoic than that. I think it's a stoic poem.
SPEAKER_01Um, the guy who wrote it had been the right guy who wrote it, I think, is connected to REBT and is also connected to the philosophy as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00100%. So it is it is a philosophy also for everyone. You're not gonna see you know a criminal struggling with substance abuse necessarily um finding another philosophy. They might find a religion, that happens a lot, but another philosophy? Really? Uh like I haven't heard it. Uh, but they do find stoicism, and it's stoicism has a direct application. I think that's probably the best example that I would use that that yeah, Andy Small.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I've met I've actually met Andy. I was thinking about this as you were describing him. I met him doing the old podcast for modern stoicism. So yeah, um, yeah, great guy. Uh maybe that episode can come back, but uh yeah, that's uh it's a really good point. You're and but that's the thing, right? Like the the fact that it all levels of society can use something, I think makes it a street philosophy where it can literally be anything, anybody, anywhere. And I think that's that's kind of what well for me, that's kind of the big thing that resonated for me was it was like, well, if this works for anybody, it can work for me. And I don't know. That was that was what happened.
SPEAKER_00And it can work for those that are listening. It can work for you, it will work for you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I believe. I believe that as well. So well, we should wrap up for today because uh it's a busy week weekend, I think, for both of us on some stuff. But um uh I do want to make one quick thing today is uh International Day for Human Space Flight. Uh I would I I'm gonna be a nerd and throw that out there. So happy international human space flight day. Um uh Mick. And um also it's we're coming up on springtime, so I'd love for everybody out there listening to this and listening to our street philosophy podcast that uh uh Rebirth is coming. We're we're we're things are growing again. It's starting to get green, even up here in Canada. So Mick, do you have any closing thoughts for us today?
SPEAKER_00Well, on your uh space flight day, um, in honor of Art Artemis 2, uh me and my business partner were on the road and we watched um shows you our old guys now, right? So at night we watched uh Apollo 13 and Martian. And Martian I hadn't watched since he came out. That is an excellent. I don't know. You you're the expert, but for me, I just thought it was phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01It's pretty good. It's pretty good. I mean, you know. Um, I also recommend Project Hail Mary. It's it's more sci-fi, it has more sci-fi to it, but Andy Weir, excellent. But he used to work, he used to be he was an astrophysicist. That's what he did. He worked in orbital mechanics, so that was his thing. But The Martian is a great book for stoics, actually, I will say, where it's like, well, I'm out of luck on a planet by myself. So all right.
SPEAKER_00Good point. I need to get the book. I read I read Project Hail Mary, so I'm really excited about the movie. Yeah, we should also do some movie podcasts.
SPEAKER_01All good movie discussion. Well, thank you, Mick, for today. Oh, sorry, say again.
SPEAKER_00We should do some stoic movies.
SPEAKER_01Movies, yeah, stoic movie podcast. That sounds like fun. We should totally look at that. Yeah, gladiator number one. Of course. All right, mate. Well, listen, we should wrap up for today. But uh, for everybody out there, would love to hear your thoughts on this being a street philosophy. How did it affect your life? Um, how did you come into it? Love to hear from you. Write in the comments. Info at puppinporch.com. We'd love to hear from you all. So until next time, cheers, Mick.
SPEAKER_00Slaughcia. Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for stoicism, send it to us, and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Today's music was provided by ben sound.com. Until next time, Pupin Porch out