Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm Adam Pearcy here with my co-host Mick Mulroy. Today we are going to talk about relationships. And specifically, I think maybe there will be personal stories from the two of us today, but definitely we'll be talking about Stoicism's view on relationships. There's definitely some historic context here. But we'll see where we get to today. So Mick, do you have any opening thoughts before we start getting into it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I know we're going to talk about relationships probably to include, you know, romantic and those type of relationships. But to start with, I mean the way Stoicism is viewed sometimes as a very singular emotion-controlling philosophy where you're like the tower of individuality and self-reliance, which I don't think is a bad thing. Um but I think those that don't really understand stoicism think it's kind of isolationist. And I don't mean that in a political sense, I mean that in like a personal sense. And it's really far from the truth. Like it's really actually the opposite, uh in my view. It yes, it starts with yourself, kind of like Buddhism, I think. I'm not an expert in Buddhism, but um totally though. Uh, you know, it really you can't it's kind of like get yourself in order before you can really be a value to a friend group, a family group, or a society. So it kind of starts that way, but the purpose is so that we'll have a better friend group, family, society. Right? Because if everybody focuses on themselves to get themselves in order, to um, you know, obviously abide by the virtues, uh, to focus on things in life that you can control, not constantly complain about things you can't control, uh, to have uh a belief that um, you know, it's not how much you have, it's how good you are kind of concept. You're just gonna be better in one-on-one relationships, whether it's with your parents, siblings, friends, yeah, uh girlfriend, boyfriend, spouse, inside your own family, inside your neighborhood, town. I mean, you get my point, right? So uh it's actually the opposite. And you can see quotes from the famous uh you know pillows of stoicism from Xeno to you know the modern ones uh that emphasize that. And that's why it's so utilized inside the team scenario. That's why so many military units use it. That's why so many resiliency coaches, whether they're you know actual therapy or just coaches uh in athletics and sports, uh, you know, team sports, etc. So I'd start with that. Uh kind of diss dissing the the uh false implications that stoicism is about, you know, some guy who's super tough um sitting on top of a mountain by himself. Uh we can't do that, but um that's not you know, and I I'll start with one quote because I I always look for quotes during my week. Uh we are made for cooperation, like feet, like hands, like eyelids, like the rows of the upper and lower teeth. To act against one another is contrary to nature. Marcus Aurelius Meditations 2 dot one. So that's where I'd start with. And it's important, I think, for people to have that grounding sense of self, understand who they are before they can really be a value to other people. And I think that is actually our purpose in life, is to be a value to other people and the and you know, broadly the planet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, and I really agree with that because when you look back, right, if you think about it so stoicism starts, and um you know, there's excuse me, there's essentially um three types of uh philosophy, you know, branches to every philosophy that you have, right? You have logos, you have physics, and you have ethos, right? And in the in the stoicism world, like so many times over, it's like the really the only important one is ethics, which is essentially who you are and how you act, right? And that I feel like that inherently starts with a social aspect, which includes, you know, the interactions with others, right? And um, when you look at the four uh when you look at the four virtues of stoicism, right, which are paralleled in other places as well, right? Um, you know, justice is specifically the social virtue. It's the treatment of others with benevolence, with magnanimity. And so, you know, it's it's it's core to our values that we are a social philosophy, right? And interestingly, I was coming across, I was doing some research for this, and I was looking at, and I have books today to actually show to the well show to the video. Um William B. Irvin's uh A Guide to the Good Life, the Ancient Art of Stoic Joy is its subtitle. Um, in Irvine's book, um, it actually talks about essentially a comparison between um uh Epicureanism and Cynicism and Stoicism, right? And so I'll quote this, right? And this is from page 140 from this copy that I have where it says uh Epicurus may have been the philosophical rival of the Stoics, but he shared their misgivings about sex. Sexual intercourse has never done a man good, and he is lucky if it has not harmed him. But having said all this, I should add that despite their misgivings about sex, the Stoics were big advocates of marriage. A wise man, Musonius says, will marry, and having married, he and his wife will work hard to keep each other happy. Indeed, in a good marriage, two people will join in a loving union and will try to outdo each other in the care they show for each other. Such a marriage, one imagines, will be very happy. So I don't think Stoics would say you have to get married. I also think they don't say, don't get married, don't go near other people. I think they do advocate, though, for this social aspect, which uh many times over, you know, grows into these, you know, lifelong relationships that we have and see. And you see that, and I'll do I'll do I'll do one of my other books quickly. For example, there's a book by Armand Danger called Socrates in Love, which talks about Socrates and his life, but it also discusses three of the big loves of his life. Myrto, his first wife, Xanthippa, who is his second wife, who he meets when he's like 50. Yeah, she was she was a firecracker. She would like they would like argue in the street. It was it sounds like a very uh colorful marriage. And then um he meets uh someone later in his life called Aspasia, who has been, I think unfairly called a cordizette, even though she was clearly in the aristocracy. So she was probably just that she was an educated single woman. But you know, we have our progenitor, we have the Stoics themselves talking about these relationships. And we're gonna talk about other stuff than just marriage, probably, but ultimately I think, you know, this is something where key Stoics are they're all married and they all have relationships and they talk about how to interact with people, but those relationships, you know, I think are are fundamentally within the core of the philosophy. We're not monks, we're not, we just aren't. Like I there's no stoic uh that I have seen who advocates to live in a hole or to live live on your own and ignore other people. I don't think that really happens.
SPEAKER_00I always viewed the the stoic version of not version um take on marriage um as a promotion of marriage, as the foundation of society, but the the sexual part being more of a counterpoint to the the theory at the time, like the Epicureans, the like if it feels good, do it, you know, kind of thing, like you know, have you know, or cheese or whatever. I'm not approved, uh and I'm not advocating for one or the other, but I I view it less as like Stoics think you should only have like uh sex to have babies, kind of thing. I I've never had you know, I was a kid when I was learning this early, so I didn't really care. But that that uh I I think it is kind of a counterpoint to the other side of the philosophy that existed at the time, which was eat as much as you want, drink as much as you want, have sex all the time because you know life's fleeting and it only matters pleasure is the only thing that matters. Right, right. Well, that that I mean we know what happens in society if that's the case. Like it goes nowhere. Like we're not shooting at you, we're not shooting uh four people around the moon if if all we're worried about is eating, drinking, and you know, uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, for sure. And you know, I think um you know the carpet.
SPEAKER_00I think they do pro promote the idea of marriage. I've always viewed the early Stoics as as like that is what underpins society, not from a religious point of view, but from like just human.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. No, for sure. And I I think there's a I think there's a side of that which is which is partly, I think, tied in with the virtues anyways, right? To have the courage to stand up and choose somebody, to have the the will to act in in support of someone, to have the wisdom to see someone seeing you for who you are and making that choice of you as well. You know, I think these are all things that if they're not directly in there, they they are paralleled or revolving around it in a way that is is deeply, you know, tied to the to the philosophy and deeply relative to the philosophy. So, and you know, I mean, look, Marcus, right? Marcus gets married. He's with his wife for 35 years um before his before her death. And at the same time, um their marriage wasn't perfect. In fact, like um, and it's interesting, actually, uh, I should say Donald Robertson, friend of the podcast, he has a graphic novel called Verissimus, which is actually one of the few that actually does uh have clear highlights of what he interprets their relationship to be like, which I thought was quite interesting. It's too big to get out, and also it's kind of graphic, so I'm not gonna put it on camera, but I highly recommend that graphic novel as well. But the interesting thing is like 35 years together, um, they went through essentially near the end of their marriage, but just before Faustina died, they went through a huge scandal where she was accused of having um an affair with Avidius Cassius, who had tried to take the emperorship from Marcus um uh while he was in the east, uh eastern regions of the empire. And um they still made it through that, and I think that's one of those things as well where um, you know, when sh after she died, Marcus deified her, and that would be normal anyways, but like deified her, and and it the the chronicles of that time period show that he did not deify her just because, like it was definitely true feelings between the two of them. And I think, you know, this is one of those things to take into account is I think a stoic when they look at this, right, and they talk carpe diem or they talk Mementum Worry or whatever. The thing is, is that they those things are not meant to be nihilistic. In fact, it's supposed to be the flip side, it's supposed to be where you cherish these moments with these people, you cherish these moments that you have. Um, and you know, I think it's it's it's one of those things that's commonly misunderstood that we're nihilistic and we're not nihilistic. In fact, we're sort of the opposite. It's like um Marcus lost more than half his children in his life, and he and those relationships could have scarred him in a way that made him nihilistic. And instead, he would say he would remind himself to remember like, you may not wake up tomorrow, so I will take into account that today is precious, right? And I think I think that's a key thing that Stoics take into their relationships. I know in my own most recent relationship, there was times where you know you have to, like when it ended, you have to remember all these things that have happened. And you remember that the the girls don't like thunderstorms, or um, this is you know, this make sure that you check on them if this happens or whatever. But the thing is, is doing that, you know, I took that from a stoicism perspective to remind myself every morning to be thankful for them to be in my life. And that was a I don't know anybody else who has ever really done that that I've ever talked to about something like this, but it was something that was very important to me, and it felt like it resonated with Marcus, because Marcus would say, He's like, You may be gone tomorrow, so I'll remember you today. And I think Stoics choose to do that. I think they choose to take their relationships seriously, even if they're not romantic, even if they're not familial, even if they're friendship-based.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and so to look at all relationships, um because sometimes we overly focus on the romantic ones, right?
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00I always wondered why you know, if you look at movies, like 90% of them are about romantic relationships, and nothing wrong with romantic relationships, but there's so much more to human, you know, experience than just a rom-com, right? Yeah, um, like why not have more about friends just being friends, you know? Uh so full disclosure uh when it comes to romantic stuff, uh like I've been married 32 years and I couldn't tell you how to anybody how to date, right? I'm so outdated for that. Like I wouldn't even know. I've only had like three girlfriends in my life.
SPEAKER_01You're you're getting close to Marcus and Faustina, though, so way to go. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00Three more years, eh? So some thoughts on what I've seen or experienced, either you know, did right or wrong, that I think are helpful in life as somebody who's just older or not smarter. Uh first of all, I think every friend every relationship should start with a friendship. What I mean by that is like the core of all solid relationships that I've seen uh in my own life and with other people is friendship. And that means like mutual respect, like you've decided that you are each other's people. Uh and what I mean by that, like you've you've like, I'm gonna look out for this person. I know this person's gonna look out for me. I'm gonna I wanna help them. Um, it's a it's a mutual thing of respect, admiration, and like just and you can't give a crap about everybody, right? So like you've been on social media, you got you know a million friends or whatever. That's that's not friends. Like people that you actually care about and spend time with. And that should be it could be people your age, it could be people not your age, you could be people you're related to. And I know it's changed a lot since you know, in the old days, you are very most people very close to their biologically related families. It's just not the case anymore. They move, you know, they just they they it's just not it's it's somebody's fault. But then they've kind of created their own family groups. And and I'm not saying this that's wrong at all. I'm just saying that it should start with that. And if if a romantic relationship grows out of that, that's gonna be the most solid one in existence. If it's just based on attraction or you know, you hit the point in your life where you want to have children, so you just find somebody, like uh it's just not gonna, it's it might work, I don't know. But I think the ones I've seen that are most solid start with a foundation of friendship. And friendship is a two-way street. So I mean, I'm somewhat of an introvert. Um, it's harder for introverts to uh do it as you know as easily as extroverts, where you feel like you you gotta be a part of your friend's life. You gotta give a crap. You gotta be the guy that doesn't always have to be invited out. Sometimes you should invite them out, you should text them and say, What's up? Right. Um again, introverts are not more inclined to do it, but they can't you can't use it as an excuse. You can't use it as an excuse. And I'm one of them, so I'm saying it. Um, but it I think you have to take the time and effort to be a friend if you want to have friends. And if you don't want to have friends, your relationships, which are a key part of human existence, are gonna suffer. They just are. And so when you get to the romantic, and I have an odd quote here friendships always benefit, love sometimes injures. Seneca, letters 35. And I think what he's talking about there is you can fall in love, or what some people would call be infatuated, uh, which is not always uh lasting, but if you're not at the core of the relationship a friend of the person, it's you're gonna struggle. So what I'm advocating for, maybe it's old-fashioned, is have a time to learn and meet people before you venture down the road of romantic relationships. Because if you're not what you know people would call compatible, which is I'm just saying friends, yeah, you're gonna have you're gonna have problems, I think. And that's not it's not only good for your existence, it's also not good for the other person's existence. And if you should bring children into it, then it just compounds it. So it may be a simplistic way of uh advocating for people to develop their own relationships, but I don't think people are doing it. I think people, and now you look at the trends today, kids, and I've talked to friends uh who my age who have kids, and they're like, they're really worried because their kids, their kids don't have any romantic relationships. They just don't. They've just decided, yeah, I'm friends with them. I'm just gonna go do whatever, play Xbox. Um, they're not intermingling, they're not going to parties, they don't drink, which you know, you you could say, well, isn't that a good thing? Well, I mean, I don't think one should drink to excess. But the problem that a lot of experts are saying is they're not drinking because they're not going to parties, they're actually socially interacting. And that's a part of it.
SPEAKER_01I heard it's not drinking. I heard a yeah. I heard a piece of data recently from someone on the Bill Maher podcast. I it's a really good time for me to say this because I I didn't think about it before. And it was a doctor on the Bill Maher show, Real Time, where he said, Right now, young people, like 70% of their meals are had by themselves. So there's no social interaction with that. And this ties into what you're saying. Sorry, I know I interrupted you, I apologize, but it was just like it's an interesting point. I didn't know this, and we talked about this a little bit. I can't remember how we got onto isolation. It was a few podcast episodes ago, but I think it is one of those things right now where people are people are just isolated. It's like 70%. That's not that's not even half. That's that's more than two-thirds, right? You kind of go, wow. And so um I think it's 70%. I might be wrong on that number, but I know that it's a huge number like that. My 70 is remember is my how my my mind is remembering it. But the la, you know, having 70% of your meals by yourself, I mean, that's a lot. The lack of social interaction is really important, right?
SPEAKER_00So on that point, and I see this with some old older generations. You know, I run every day. Um, it's just what I do, usually solo. So kind of not doing what I'm saying. But I you when I start running, when I go out of town and I I try to get the same route, right? So it's so I don't have to you know figure out where I am all the time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Inevitably, I start seeing groups of old people that meet at the same time and walk together. I see it here in my town. I when I go out of town for business, I see it there. But they're always older, usually. I'm not saying it's this is this is generalization. It's obviously you can, it's not the rule. I also see when we we do business lunches and stuff downtown, uh Cameron Whitefish. Um, so we're there for business. But I also, when we go at this regular time because it's easier to schedule, I see now that I I got it, they have more time on their hands. But I see the older crowd that meets there for lunch every Tuesday. I don't see that a lot with younger people. It's it's it's a shift. Like there used to be a time when people felt that engaging with their neighbors was or was just what you did. You had block parties, you went hiking together every Friday, you ate breakfast at the local diner. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like the younger people, I don't see it. I don't see it. I know they tend to be isolated and it's it's unhealthy. So if we're talking about one aspect of our relationship discussions for stoics, you know, and we would overuse the quote, but it's a good quote. I mean, what's good for the hive is good for the bee. And if you can't be part of a humans are part of a hive. We just are, even if you don't want to be. That's the way we have evolved. That's the way we will, you know, basically persevere and succeed. Even if you're an introvert like me, you don't have to have a gazillion friends. But it's better for you if you have some real ones that you care about. Not just, you know, what do they do for me kind of thing, but what do you do for them? And I think that's before you even move into a romantic relationship. If you don't have that down, I don't think you're ready.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I I I tend to get grouped myself into a newer term that people use, which is an ambivert, which I'm sort of 50-50. It depends on the day. What it really is, is is the easiest way to describe it is my social battery can get depleted pretty quickly, but I tend to come off like an extrovert because I get excited about stuff. But um, you know, I think I think you're right, like the interconnectedness of people is something that we may be missing nowadays. And in relationships, I think, you know, from the friendship perspective, I mean, stoics very clearly think that is also an important part of this. I think the way I generally think about it is like all emotions, right? The entire gamut of emotions is meant to be the human experience. And so romance is great. And look, I love a good love story. I think you know I would say that. But at the same time, I think a lot of people, um, they think that that's kind of the the be-all and end all. I'm not gonna fault someone for having kids, I'm not gonna fault someone for getting married and stuff like that. That's not what I'm saying. It's just that there is there is definitely people within my generation, like I have friends where it's like they had a kid and then basically they disappear, you never see them again. Then you realize they don't they don't go outside, and you're kind of like, wow, I have you guys done anything recently? And they're like, not really. You know, we're watching, I don't know, some show on whatever. And um, and I'm like, I don't know that you're I feel like you're I feel like you're not getting the whole range, right? So um I will I'll I'll quickly use a funny example, which is um I have a lot of friends that I've never met before in person, one of whom is Mick. I would consider Mek a close friend, but what's funny is is we've never even been in the same um like province or state. Uh we've never we've only ever been in the same time zone. And and that's sort of an odd thing to say, but it's true. I'm not really bothered by that. It's just that that it's one of those things where, you know, um I have prioritized the friendship with Mick because well, what happened with the true story is is we did a podcast together because we were introduced through Donald Robertson, and we did a podcast episode on my old podcast for modern stoicism. And the the comments were like, these guys are great together. They should do an episode every week. Like it was really funny. There were all these epic comments, and then we started chatting more and it kind of went from there. But we are friends, and my life is more the way I see it is my life is more faceted and deeper because I have friends like Mick, but I have had relationships with people romantically, but I have family connections as well, as I have colleague connections, and having that variety, I think, is part of the human experience, right? Is those different depths they and those different things that let you let you talk about stuff. Like a in many ways, a friend might tell you something that your partner might not want to, or vice versa, right? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and your friend, you know, is there when other people aren't. That's part of being a friend.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because in some ways, friends, what I think is great about friends, and I think you know, there are historic friendships that we can talk about, right? Like um uh Marcus had a friend, I can't remember if it was Musonius or Galen, but his friend died, and Marcus was apparently like depressed and in bed for like three days. And I think it was Galen. It might have been Musonius, but let's say it was Galen, and then Musonius or this other person writes, like, just let him be, because everybody falters and everybody has these rough periods, and you know, and the thing is, is like, so I think historically, like Stoics are known for their friendships in many ways, right? Um but uh yeah, I think it also it's just those different layers and depth, right? Like a romantic relationship has different parts to it as a friend, like a I can't remember what the right word is, not filial, but like a platonic, that's the word. A platonic relationship has something different as a familial relationship, as you know, colleagues or um professional relationships. And I think that's really important. I recently had someone who used to work for me, she was a student, and she's asked me to be her mentor. Not that I think I can help anybody with anything, but she's asked me to be her mentor. And I basically was uh I was very taken aback by that, but um, it's just one of those things where it's like we just always were able to talk about her career stuff in a way that she couldn't get from other people, and the best way to round out your own facets is to have different points of view. So yeah, that's my long time.
SPEAKER_00See, if you know, if I was to you know do the dad thing and kind of give bullets, at least that's how my view of dads do things. Um in addition to like start every relationship looking at it as a friend, like build that foundation that's gonna be the one that indoors. Um make sure that you're actually the a friend and not just looking for people to be your friend. In other words, it's a two-way street.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'd also say that you're gonna, I mean, it's I think it's safe to say it's fair to make friends than it is to find romantic relationships, right? Um, those are a little more rare. Um, but what I would say is two things on romantic relationships. Obviously, I already said the friend part, but if it's not working, don't force it because generally it's not gonna work. And it's better for you and the other person to figure out that early. And then look at because there's other people out there. I mean, I do kind of romantically believe in like everybody has a person, but if that isn't the person, then you're then you're actually missing the opportunity to find a per that person, you know what I mean? Because that's not the person. You get what I'm saying. Um, and then the other part is it's not either or, man. The healthiest people that I know are like they have great relationships with their wives. Uh, I'm talking from the male point of view, you know, they do stuff together, just them, they have hobbies together, but that guy also goes fishing with his buddies. This is my world, so you can put it in your own world, but yeah, yeah. Or goes up hunting, hunting with his buddies and just be the buddy for a while. And and and your spouse, and the other way around, like girls do what girls do. And they should be able to do it by themselves. You know, it's not like, oh, you gotta spend all 100% of my your time with me now that we're, you know, married or what have you. I think there's a balance, man. And I think the older people know it. They just did it. And now it's like you said, you all have kids now never seen them again. Like they disappeared, they never do anything. They like that's not how to that's not how to live your life. Um, not that I'm the guy that should tell everybody how to live their life. I'm just looking at what I've seen observed other people that I think are are better at their relationships, is there's a balance. It's based on friendships, there's a balance, and they don't the other thing is, man, you got to get over it. When especially in uh boy-girl relationships, um, you know, things happen, you get mad, they say something, you say something in life, man. It's like you can't control the past. So if you want to tie it to stoicism, you cannot control what already happened. You can apologize for it, make sure it doesn't happen again. But you if it keeps coming back to the same thing, that's about as anti-stoic as you can get. You can't control what already happened, you can't control going ahead. And relationships often recycle arguments, recycle events, recycle, and that's just unhealthy. And I everybody knows it, but they still do it. It's one of those things. So you got to be self-aware enough to say, Am I doing what I say I don't do as a stoic? Do I just keep harping on something that's never going to change because it happened in the past? And am I looking for an opportunity just to one-up my partner in some kind of perpetual argument that some marriage couple has go through their whole existence, which is actually funny in some cases, unless you're a part of it. Um, I don't do that. But I think part of it is just you got to be the one you can control, which is I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna bring up uh something that made me mad five years ago.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're totally right. I mean, the one thing for sure is the cultivation of yourself. This is always something that we keep going back to. And this is where people think it's a man on an island thing, which it isn't. But you should be cultivating yourself better. And the, you know, my personal belief is that it should include stuff that you do that that maybe isn't with your partner. Because honestly, like you can't spend I I don't think you can do everything together with somebody like that without them, without something happening on the flip side.
SPEAKER_00And I think as cut yourself off for everybody else.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly. But as well, like I think it's important, and something that I'm I'm known for within my friends group is just being very introspective and saying, like, what did I do? Like, I can't not everything is my fault, but what can I do to be better for myself or my future partner for someone else in my life, for my friends, right? Like I'm a I'm able to ask that of myself. I think everybody should be doing that. I mean, and I think that's part of the relationship thing. Good relationships, family, friend, romantic, um, colleague. It's built on people not screwing up. It's built on people doing the hard work, having the courage to step up and say, look, I screwed that up and I gotta do better next time, and doing that, right? And and and doing that step up and doing that that that uh that work. And it's not about it's not about right or wrong. It's just about accepting what is and isn't happening or happened and then making a choice. And I think you know, we see that in so much of so much of ourselves with this, right? Like, as much as anger is a madness and we don't want to get and and we don't want it to happen, like Seneca would say, unfortunately, it's one of the emotions, it's one of the things we're going to experience. You just don't let it control yourself, right? And that's that's really the key thing there. Well, this is this is a topic we could go on for for a long time.
SPEAKER_00We'll revisit. I'm sure we'll revisit.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. So, but uh appreciate everyone's uh uh listening today and patience. Uh, do you have any closing thoughts for us today, Mick?
SPEAKER_00You know, because you brought a friend of the podcast with Donald Roberts, Robertson. Um Ryan Holiday is also writing a new book. I should really ask him if we if he wants us to say what it's about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but you and I both had some uh texts with Ryan Holiday recently.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we talked to my son, uh who is a former recon marine and uh airborne ranger infantry officer. So that might give you an idea about what he's writing on, but let's let's text him and see if he wouldn't mind us telling our uh audience what it's about because it's exciting. It's exciting.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. For sure. Well, I will close with something that um Stephen Fry used to say on uh QI whenever he finished his episodes, which was please uh go out there and be utterly wonderful to each other. But uh Mick, have a good one today. Thanks for the talk, and we will see everybody on the next episode. Cheers, Mick. Salacha.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for Stoicism, send it to us, and then we can be reached at info at puppin'porch.com. Today's music was provided by Ben Sound.com. Until next time, Popin Porch out of the U.S.