Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism. I'm Adam Pearcy here with my co-host Mick Mulroy. So uh Mick, we were gonna jump right into a topic today, which um I actually pushed this forward, which was the topic of it's essentially it's one of the core virtues, temperance. Um, and it's interesting because I think you and I, you and I both have seen there are different definitions of this. So so why don't you open up for us today with uh your interpretation of temperance as a virtue or how you would describe it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think to start with, I mean, temperance usually gets kind of short shrift, right? I mean, you know, we you always talk about courage and wisdom and justice, right, which are kind of more monumental. Uh although temperance for a lot of people is kind of the core of stoicism. Sometimes for the right reasons, maybe sometimes for wrong reasons, but it certainly does attract a lot of people to it. And I'll get to why I said the wrong wrong reasons in a second, but I mean ultimately it has evolved over time because if you look at Zeno being a cynic, you know, or he started at least in that philosophy, and then he left they were all about denying themselves pleasures, right? And I think, you know, obviously Zeno, I don't know exactly why Zeno left, but um my my speculation has always been that he realized that you still have to, you know, function in society and kind of take care of yourself, right? A lot of these cynics walked around getting handouts and then bragging about the fact that you know they didn't value money, but somebody was taking care of them, right? So um that's all another episode. But um, I think the original concept of temperance was really focused on like worldly pleasures, right? Like don't drink too much, don't become obsessed with you know sex and stuff. Um don't don't be uh gluttonous, you know. It's kind of hard to do with these things, right? Yeah, um there was a time in human evolution where uh people could pretty much eat a lot and drink a lot, and you know, obviously sex was there, uh probably pretty prevalent in um the ancient Mediterranean. Yeah. So I think part of it is that. And I'll and I'd come back to that because I think it is important and it's what a lot of people have to deal with today, and it's only getting worse in the sense that it's just easier.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like you don't have to be wealthy to drink four bottles of wine a day, right? You can buy bad, that's what I'm saying. Right. Especially, right? I mean, um, you could, you know, unfortunately, like porn is ubiquitous online, man. You can't buy a pair of shoes without getting an advertisement for you know something that leads you down a road, apparently, to not apparently, but you know, so it's even more special for young men. So I think we should come back to the these aspects of it. And then, you know, I mean the biggest issue we have with poor people, at least in the United States now, is obesity. I mean, think about that.
SPEAKER_00Obesity, right?
SPEAKER_01So, and it's mostly because of bad food, but it's also, you know, eat too much of bad food. So I think there's some there's definitely an element of that uh importance in modern society, even more so than potentially ancient uh Greece. Um and I think people should take umbrage of that, is you know, um everything in moderation, you know, that's what Aristotle said. But um, you can look at literally every stoic significant philosopher, and they all talk about, you know, basically take what you need and and uh and that's it. Um it's it's a core element of it. Uh ultimately it's it is uh it's what draws a lot of people to it. So that's the first thing we could get into it if you'd like, and then obviously your thoughts. The other two factors I wanted to bring in is what I would call anger management. Um one of the biggest benefits I was doing, by the way, I was doing research on temperance today, and it's interesting there are a lot of priests out there that uh Catholic priests especially that use Stoicism. Probably they always have Catholic Catholicism and Stoicism, you know, going back to St. Augustine and um St. Thomas Aquinas. It's very tied, right? But I think you know, I'll ask my priest when but I think they're using it because they know how young men are attracted to Stoicism now, you know what I mean? So there's a lot of research. Uh and of course they go from like Epictetus to Marcus Aurelius to then take St. Thomas Aquinas, and you know, they get you back to thousands. Yeah, yeah. Um, the other thing I was gonna uh bring up is you know the stoic pause, which I think is important today, especially with what you know, when somebody, you know, pisses you off, essentially, you know, take the time not to respond, take the time to, you know, walk away, take a walk, whatever. Um, don't be like your enemy, you know, or not your enemy, but your uh in this case, your antagonist, like Marcus Rose. Paraphrase or Marcus Release. And then the last one I wanted in in uh I d I dose I dos idos is the um is an modesty in ancient Greece. And I think there's an element of temperance uh that includes modesty, which is also humility and not being braggadocious and not uh trying to highlight yourself above others and stuff. I think that's another part of temperance. And then the last one, which is why I say sometimes people take it the wrong way, is what I lecture six from Lusonias and Rufus, which talks specifically about putting yourself through hardship physically, mentally, to prepare. I totally believe in it. I mean, obviously um it's a military aspect, especially in combat arms, special operations and infantry. Uh but I think some people just focus on that. Like that's the entirety is I'm gonna, you know, run an ultra marathon and jump in an ice bath. I think it's part of it, actually, uh, at least from uh Rufus's perspective. And I think it's a good thing not to take it to extremes, but um I think it's part of it. But oftentimes, you know, you look at the influencers and they take stoicism and they just try to market, you know, that kind of aspect. So I think all of those are part of temperance. And if you want, we can go well, first hear your uh comments on all the above, and then we can go into detail.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think, you know, what's interesting that I see parallel today, excuse me, what I find parallel today with the ancient Rome, where temperance was really pushed, I think. It feels like that was very heavily pushed uh from a stoic perspective there in a way. You know, Marcus talks about it, right? Where he's trying to temper he's trying, and temperance is a is it it has a root word that I think is important in my mind, at least when you look at it, to temper something, right, is to to harden it through it if you do it with metal, you do it with heat, right? And glass, there's tempered glass and things like that. But also there's temperament, right, which it relates to this as well, which I think is, you know, what your demeanor is like, right? Who you are, what your actions, what you look like, right, in those circumstances. But going back to um your first part, I mean, I find a parallel today with what happened in ancient Rome, right? Like, and so I've been reading this book on Cato. I've had I've struggled reading for the last couple of months, so I'm still working through this book on Cato, the the the uh the the I think it's um Rome's Last Citizen is what it's called, right? And what's really interesting is that um, you know, Cato, in a way, is is facing off against people who have an inordinate amount of power in that world. Pompey, Crassus, Julius Caesar, right? Although Caesar Caesar's funny because you find out that he actually had a lot of debt. He just like moved it around. But in ultimately, Pompey and Crassus were essentially like an early version of the millionaire billionaire you see today, right? Where they have so much wealth and they own so much land and they own so many things, right? They have a private navy, they have a private army, they've got all that. And I think that opulence, right? I think there's a reason why that comes up a lot with this, because because what you were saying, where you you you lack self-control, so you just, you know, eat, meat, meat, or you whatever, right? I think it parallels with today, right? Like at some point you have to ask yourself, like, do what do I need versus what do I want, right? And I think that's a big part of it for me when I look at this. So I agree with you on the first part for sure. I not that I really disagree with you strongly on anything that you said, but ultimately I think the first part, there's this funny parallel today, right? And you're finding out about, you know, some, you know, some of the rich and famous, right, who are, you know, they're not. I won't go into any specifics, but like they're not, they may not show the best moral character, right? When you actually find out what's happening in the background. And um, you know, I think a stoic would look at that, for example, and say, well, you know, this overabundance, this opulence, right, um, is probably affecting them deeply, much more, much more deeply than they would probably realize. So that's the uh that's what I would say to be the first part. But the second part, the temperament part, you know, where you were talking about modesty, you know, humility. I think that's a really important part of a lot of this as well, right? Understanding that no matter what, no m no man is the center of the universe. I mean, Marcus is a rare person who exists within the sort of commentary of today through this book that he wrote, not for anybody else. And in in some ways, it's kind of luck, right? Because it almost didn't survive. I mean, we know that, and we know there are fragments, right? What'd he?
SPEAKER_01He said burn it, right?
SPEAKER_00They just didn't see it. Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think, you know, that's an important thing. You know, we always have to remember that that we are we are one person of many. We are, you know, there's a humility or a modesty that I think the stoics always kind of talk about. Temperance is an interesting one though, too, because you're right. I find some people get kind of they get very defensive about it because they sort of say, Well, I should be able to do or say or or make a choice, whatever I want it to be, right? And I would say, I don't think you or I would ever say to someone, don't shoot, like, that's not true. The question is, is are you making that choice for a good reason, right? Is it like eating for sustenance, right? Versus eating because you have a deep craving for pork rinds and chocolate-covered pretzels. I mean, you know, it's a thing that you're a thing. No, that's not my thing, actually. I don't like chocolate-covered pretzels that much, but but I just meant like I could was the first thing I thought of for opulence. I don't like I've never had a pork rind. I don't even know how to get them in Canada, but anyways, but the thing for me is um I definitely had them in the salad. You've had yeah. But the thing is too, no one would say don't even have one, right? Like there's a there's a there's a there's a a self-control aspect going back to that where you have the ability to say no, right? You have the ability to have that, have that to temper yourself, right, and say no. And then the last thing about you know pushing yourself to experience a hardship, I mean, that's a big, that's a big part of this. Now, I I I actually I'm not a big fan of the idea of like that equates to do an Iron Man immediately or something like that, right? Because there's there's so many people who struggle with that. It's more, I think, in the day-to-day, right? So um, because of my sport, right? I'm a classical, I'm a classic cross-country skier, racer here in in Ontario, the province where I live. Um, I have to do ice baths sometimes. It's a therapeutic thing for my legs because I I seem to have really tight calves all the time and I get I get calf injuries. And um, so I do it for that purpose, but I also know that it's a tough thing, especially it's cold outside, especially on a long ski day. Like I've skied on minus 25 Celsius. It's really dangerous to do that, though, so I I don't suggest that for anybody. But you come inside, it's nice and warm, and then I got I've got to go back into an ice bath. Not a great, not a great feeling, not a great look. You're sort of shriveled up.
SPEAKER_01I mean ice baths are good for you.
SPEAKER_00They are good for you. But I what I'm saying is they have like a therapeutic effect, but I think as well, there's a hardship to that of like I I go through that, but I don't like I'm not the one who's sitting there swearing. I'm not the one who's like, you know, angry that I have to do that. I have there's a spa here in the G T the Ontario area that I live in that I that that has a you know it's a finished spa, so it has cold plunges and everything. And you see people jump in the cold plunge and they get like mad. They like look, they like get mad that they're in a cold plunge, and it's like, well, you jumped in. And I always think it's funny.
SPEAKER_01I saw that the other day. There's a lot of hot springs in Montana.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so they have to do the the uh comparison, they also have cold plunges, yeah. Right, which is good, it's therapeutic, right? It's natural hot spring, and then yeah, I mean you do see people getting angry.
SPEAKER_00I know it's weird.
SPEAKER_01Like itself up at like eight, you know, okay.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, there was this guy, he was like, he was like slapping himself all over his body, and I'm like, uh you know, I'm you go ahead, I'll I'll catch up. You know, like I didn't know this person, I just thought it was funny because at some point you're like, okay, that seems a little bit excessive. But also, if you can't endure any hardship, even not that that's really a hardship, but like if you can't endure anything that throws you like that, you know, you have to ask yourself that. So um, yeah, I want to kind of pause there because it there it would be easy to talk about one more well, maybe I could talk about one more thing. You talked about the stoic pause. There's an interesting concept in Zen Buddhism, which is or and which is called the three nen, which is where when something happens to you, you have three three events that occur in your mind. The first event is the is the split second reaction. So when you let's say something like you uh touch a hot iron iron, excuse me, you touch a hot iron, excuse me, you touch a hot iron, and then you your first instinct is pain and you recoil. That's the first nen. The second nen is usually the reaction your brain has with some sort of cognitive reasoning behind it. So that's where you'll like go, oh, you know, bleepity bleep, right? Or or or if someone cuts you off in traffic, right? You might swear at that person in your car. And then the third nen is when your rational, very rational brain takes back over and goes, Why did I lose my cool like that? And it is interesting to me these parallels you see across the different philosophies, because I I honestly think it it's a sort of those layers of truth that you have in sort of all humans, right? That our brains kind of work like that. You always have a split-second reaction, and then you have a choice, you have a cho your first chosen reaction, and then you have your your final reaction, which is your rational, like calm reaction when you finally realize what you really feel about that situation. And I if you if after you do something like that, you ask yourself, why did I swear like that? That's the third nen. That's the one where you're kind of balancing yourself out. But I think, you know, what I wanted to pass over to you is I think the thing is, though, is it is it it is more challenging than people think. I mean, we call it a virtue for us, but as much as uh as much as it is a virtue, I think it's one of the harder ones to do, right? Because courage and wisdom are things you can sort of seek out or act out. But justice and temperance, which I believed in my mind are connected, they're really hard for people, I think, a lot of the time. I keep trying to figure out why that is.
SPEAKER_01So, yeah, good point. I mean, if you were to look at what the perfect, although I don't think so, not to pick out a perfect, but an ideal um stoic when it comes to temperance, it would be the person who would turn the other cheek, right? To use a Christian uh saying. Like Cato literally got punched in the back and the person came up to apologize and acted like it didn't happen. So beyond just a stoic pause and not responding, he just said, Yeah, I don't even remember, right? So these are lessons you can take and use in modern life, right? Yeah, um they but they would also not be shrinking violence. In fact, they'd be tough as workpecker lips, as uh my friend used to say, right? Because they could they're visit they they test themselves physically. Um, you know, whether it's endurance sports or combative sports, I mean that's very popular. Always has been, always has been, you know, the was it Chris? Was the boxer right after a zero? Uh one was a boxer, one was a runner, right? Um Marcus Aurelius was a boxer, a wrestler, right? I mean, combative sports um should be done in the ring, right? That's what I used to tell my boxers, right? Um don't run around picking fights at bars. But you would be the person that most ignores getting punched in the back while you're trying to give a speech. But if it got the guy in the ring, you'd win. You know what I mean? Like this, I've always viewed it as a grown up. Um and you're and you're capable of enduring things that other people aren't because you test yourself all the time. That's the that's an extra uh six by Masonius Rufus. And then that person would also be uh, I think somebody who is humble, um, who didn't seek the spotlight, who uh didn't buy Austin Tetch's thing to show off their wealth. Not that there's anything wrong with having wealth, but um there's no reason to flaunt it as some kind of peacock. Um that person would probably uh live in a modest house, drive a modest car if he drove one at all, or she, and um would deliberately not try to talk themselves up. Uh and so I mean if you're looking for somebody the the stoic view of this, I think those things would would fit it. And obviously didn't overeat, didn't drink too much, and on the last few, I would just like to add, since uh this is supposed to be practical life uh events. Yeah, what I've heard that I think have worked, and I'm older than you, I've had people tell me, look, you gotta cheat. And the and and what they meant by cheating is you gotta set things up to your advantage. So people who have a problem like drinking one beer and they can't stop drinking beer, I've had friends tell me so they go to bed early.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And people like, so what? What does that mean? Well, if you go to bed at nine, chances are you're not gonna drink a lot of beer, right? You're just cheating, you get up way early and you go to bed early, and and better things happen, or you overeat at night, or whatever it is that you do at night that's not good. I had another guy that swore by this, did it for as far as I know, still does it. Every beer, I'm just using beer as an example. Um, every beer he drank, he ran three miles. Wow. If he didn't add it up at the end of the week, then he would start running. So and you think about it. I mean, that's you have two beers and you gotta run six miles a day, right? So, uh, which is the average man, right?
SPEAKER_00Would you do that? So if you drink Guinness, is it like four and a half?
SPEAKER_01You know, Guinness is actually healthier than most beers that you I know.
SPEAKER_00Maybe it's two and a half instead.
SPEAKER_01Look it up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01It's like it's like a cancer patients, right? With minerals and vitamins. I know. Minerals and vitamins.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. I'm with you though. I'm with you though about this. I mean, taking the action is a really important thing, right? Like a lot of people think that stoicism exists in this vacuum where where like you take the punch and you just don't react. I mean, we did you did talk about the Cato story. It's not, but it's not that you don't you do nothing, right? There's still an action that you can take. I think it's very I think a key thing about temperance and self-control and all of that is an honest look at the root cause of sort of some of these things, right? Like if you're in an environment where um drinking is celebrated, for example, and you're struggling with controlling it, then extracting yourself from that environment, it that may be the right choice for you. Well, that's what I mean by cheating.
SPEAKER_01I mean, it's not cheating.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. No, exactly. And that's what I'm that's why I'm agreeing with you on that. And I think that's really important. So the key thing is to ask yourself like, what is the root cause here? Right? Is it you have too much idle time on your hands? Right? Running, walking, reading, like doing something else. I mean, um, I think food's an interesting one for me. I was we were talking about this a little bit when we were texting earlier this week to get ready for the episode. Some of the studies coming out this week about some of these um pharmaceutical aids you can take for like uh weight loss and everything. It turns out that they have lots of side effects that people aren't really. Understanding until now. Um, things that can, you know, uh inhibit your appetite or or whatnot, they also affect things in your body like dopamine and stuff like that, which you do want because dopamine makes you feel good about stuff. So the thing is though, is like trying to do those things sometimes is a shortcut. And I'm not saying I'm I it sounds funny because it sounds like I'm contradicting your cheating thing, but it's more like there's a shortcut that just addresses the symptom, but there's the cheating that you're describing where you're addressing a root cause, right? Um, I had to, I had to 10 years ago, I had to cut some people out of my life that were um toxic in in a literal way because they just the drinking culture with them and the culture of like over partying and stuff like that, I guess it would say. It just didn't it no longer aligned with what was going well for me. And I was sitting there going, I don't think I can do this anymore, right? And so, you know, I would say that all the time, I would say all the time, it's just like, look, I don't do this anymore. They and they I remember somebody one time they said to me, like, you know, they came up to me and they said really loudly in my face, they were like, smile at them. What's wrong now? And I was like, There's nothing wrong. I'm just not drinking, so I don't, I don't know. I'm just myself, like I'm just kind of standing here, right? And I'll tell a quick, there's a quick, there's a Zen story that they talk about to explain this, where there's a town somewhere, and there's parked in the one of the streets of the town is this horse that everyone knows is really mean, and it like kicks everybody, and it's just horrible. It's just like a bronco ready to go anytime. And the townspeople are like, How are we gonna get by this? And they look, they look over and they see that the Zen master who lives down the road, he's just coming out of his house, and they say, Oh, he's gonna know what to do. We'll watch him. So they stand there watching, and he gets out of his house and he starts walking, starts walking, and he looks up and he sees the horse and he goes, Oh no. And then he turns and he goes through the alley and he walks down the other street. So he, you know what I mean? He like extricates himself from that circumstance. Yeah. Because everyone thinks there's this like fancy thing you can do. Sometimes it's just it's the simple thing of not going out to that thing, not buying the junk food at the grocery store, right? Just don't have it in the house or something like that. Is it easy? No, but sometimes it's a little bit it's a lot easier than people think, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and it's cheating, is uh I'm just kind of using that joking. Yeah, yeah. Going to bed early and getting up early isn't really cheating, it's just being healthy, right? So, and like you said, if you if you have a hard time controlling you know how much you drink when you go to bars, um go to breakfast with your friends instead. Yeah, right. I mean, if you have a hard time drinking much at breakfast, then maybe you maybe we gotta seek uh some other assistance. But um You see what I mean? It's it's not it's not cheating, it's just changing your lifestyle to the point where you don't have to constantly struggle with your own uh demon, so to speak. So that that I think is kind of the core of what it's it's multiple different facets, right? You have from the stoic pause to um the idos, the idea of humility, yeah, uh, which I think is incredibly important. Uh and that's another thing you you brought up, obviously meditations, and it very ironically, if you read that, um one of the things he really harps on is his fame is so fleeting. Yes. He says it often in in his writings that basically, like, even him, who he knew he was a Roman emperor, right? So like he knew he was going to be remembered. But even him is like there's a lot of Roman emperors and whatever. And he became the most famous, like the one everybody keeps talking about in perpetuity, but probably because that he was so um humble, right? Um for a for a you know, a Roman emperor who could have done all these things uh non-stop, right? He could have, you know, those giant barrels of wine, he could have had uh harems of uh lady folks, he could have had all that stuff, and he just didn't, you know, he's out there along with his men fighting on the front line, sleeping on a straw mat, enduring the same hardships, eating the same food. I mean, that's he's why he became kind of the the model of what a military leader should be, you know. Um I think it's an incredible important part of Stoicism. Um I see I think people give it short drift because it's it's not as lofty and an idealistic, I think, as you know, being that soldier that uh saves his colleagues on the battlefield, or that person who marches for civil rights. Um be, you know, like um, you know, down in uh Selma where the police attacked them, right, for justice uh or wisdom, you know. Um those are all very lofty and very important parts. Temperance is more of a how do you live day-to-day, at least how I view it. Um it is just as important because you know, you're not gonna have that many chances to storm the storm the beach, uh, or maybe you uh march across the bridge um with Martin Luther King, but you're gonna have every day, you're gonna have a challenge potentially for how you live your life, especially with the anger part, right? Yeah, because nowadays, and I think there's a bigger issue, you know, in the uh uh the more worlds of Mike Tyson, people would be a lot nicer if you could punch him in the mouth. I mean, you can't really punch people in the mouth anymore. So people are really bold and quite frankly, jerks, yeah. You know, because they they they they they go with the idea, like, eh, I can say whatever I want to this person because he's not gonna he's not gonna you know jack me up because he's gonna go to jail, which is true. And you shouldn't. I'm not asking.
SPEAKER_00No, no, but but on the other side, I think there's a situation there where you kind of go, like, there's a lot of people who are like offended in a very loud way. Where it's kind of like, okay, well, like, you know, especially if people like I've I've seen people be offended by objective fact, right? And because I work in engineering, right? And you just kind of sit there and you go, look, like you have to calm down, right? Because it's not helping anybody. We're not getting anywhere, right? And you know, talking about there's only so many times to storm the beach. I mean, I would say temperance is you're right, that everyday thing that I it builds that foundation that when you do storm the beach, when the things are when the when the bombs are going off, when when you know when the people are looking to you for guidance or leadership, right? The temperance, the temperance activities you do leading up to that, I think, set you up for a much better success chance of success, right? And I think that's a really important part of this. So I would I would agree with you. Like Socrates would say that all of the all of the virtues are wisdom are are actually just parts of wisdom, right? Temperance is a wisdom of your own self and your own self-control. Like courage is a wisdom about you know what you should be, should or shouldn't be taking action for, and justice is wisdom of how to treat other people. But I think you're right. Temperance seems small, but it's actually it's that it's that it's like the atomic habits guide, James, James Clear says, right? Where it's like it's one percent every day, but if you do that for a hundred days, you're a hundred percent better, right? Oh yeah, yeah. And I think that's kind of where it falls out for me and all of that. But anyways, it's uh it we're gonna have a shorter episode today, but uh Mick, thank you so much for today. Honestly, this was an interesting topic. I think um this is one just like with all the virtues topics when we cover, it's always gonna be great to hear from the community. So we'd love to hear from the community. Info at pubandporch.com. Um, comment on the video, you know, like, subscribe, or uh uh, you know, send us a message some way. Temperance in the community, I think, is one of those things that people I I would imagine it resonates more with people as they're when they think about their day-to-day. So do you have any closing thoughts for us today, Mick?
SPEAKER_01So the last thing I would say was something that was brought up to me this week is and maybe it's another sheet, but to find time to walk every day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? It gets you away from the modern world and obviously not wrapping around looking at your phone. Um, and as Nietzsche said, some of the best ideas, if not all the best ideas, come during a walk. So um I would just add that to your list of things that you might want to do in addition to coal plunges and um, you know, crossfitting or and all that, which is all great. Um, it's just a walk, man. That's how this going did it. They didn't just stay in the porch, by the way, according to the professor I used to hang out with at uh, hence the pub and porch name. Um, he said actually they would meet there and then they would walk. All if you go to Athens, you there's mountain, it's rung, it's rang by mountains. They would just go through uh I think uh I can't remember the name of Mountain, but I used to run there all the time, and they would just walk around the mountains talking. So uh take time to walk. That would be my closing comments.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Kinetic meditation is I sometimes call it. All right. Well, we'll see everybody on the next one. Cheers, Mick. Slotcha.
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