Welcome to Pub Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life. Hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Okay, welcome back here to uh Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism with myself, Adam Pearcy, and my co-host Mick Mulroy. Jumping into it today, we were going to do more of sort of a classic episode today, and we were going to talk about someone who is uh important to all of us who follow Stoicism, which is the essentially the founder of Stoicism on its own, uh Zeno of Sitium, who uh founded the school in the fourth century BCE, I think it is. And uh Mick suggested this, so I I want to make sure I'd give up the floor pretty quickly. But um uh for those of you looking for a quick guide to learn about uh Zeno, I would recommend Ryan Holiday's Lives of the Stoics. Um Ryan's a friend of the podcast. I think it's important to give people modern citations for places they can pull from. So but Mick, why don't you open us today with uh some of your thoughts on Xeno as a founder, and we can maybe tell a little bit of the story of him.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And like you said, we just uh we we intend to have episodes that are um very traditional, obviously talking about the pillars of stoicism, Zeno being the first, but also attach stoicism where it's relevant to modern day events. So that's that's where we're headed. Uh I think it's important. I am not dressed up today because we're doing a traditional podcast, and I'm dressed up today because I have to go and debate um on TV, obviously, uh whether nuclear weapons testing is a good idea. I was surprised that they found somebody who thought it was a good idea, but we'll this will be an interesting debate. But that's why I'm all in my you know uh fancy duds here. But as far as Xeno, um one, if you do get a chance, um I was there because we helped with the humanitarian maritime corridor from Cyprus to Gaza um some time ago. And we hubbed out of a town called Larnaca. That was the main port, you know, where we put our food on our barges and sent it over uh to go into Gaza. And I was running down the beach uh as I do every morning, basically, not the beach, but run every morning. And I saw this old guy, they had like some kind of contraption on the beach anybody could use to do exercises. And I knew, I mean, I knew Zeno was from Cyprus, right? Um, but I didn't really know where. Cidium I couldn't find on the map. That's really where why I was asking. So I saw this old old fella uh doing some exercises. I said, Do you know where you know Xeno is from on uh Cyprus? And he pointed over my shoulder, which is kind of the way Xeno uh, you know, uh found stoicism. And I turned around and there was a big statue of Z of Zeno behind me. Um you'd think a spy would be a little more situationally aware. But yeah, there he was. And so I was like, oh, so he's not from Larnica, and he's and the guy said, you know, Larnica is the new name, Citium was the original name. So I was actually standing in Citium, and then I just kept running down the beach and um to where the guy pointed me, and there's still the historic uh ancient uh uh city. Uh it's always obviously in ruins of Sidium, where Xeno comes from.
SPEAKER_02And uh it was Xeno was born in Xenopolis, I saw yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. Telling you about Xeno listening to everything or saying on the podcast. Um, so but it it was a Phoenician Hellenized city, which means, you know, obviously Phoenician, I don't know if it's proper to say, but I think they're kind of like the modern, you know, Lebanese. Yeah, and the name I think means something like sea people, so they were traders, right? That's right, which makes sense why they'd colonize islands, right? Yeah, um, so there's always been a debate. I'm not here to solve it because you know I'm not a historian, but that you know uh Zeno was Phoenician, but he obviously knew Greek because he was in a Hellenized city in Cyprus.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think there the evidence to that is that they when they gave Zeno great awards in Athens and basically made him like you know, father of the city. I don't know if that was the exact uh terms, but they they talked about him, obviously in glowing terms, but they talked about him as if he wasn't Greek, um, and that they were basically giving him an honorary citizenship. So I think, you know, at least from the novice's perspective, uh he likely wasn't Greek. Uh so he was Phoenician, so he was from the Middle East. Uh and then, of course, everything that I in in the in the statue actually depicts it, um, from appearance, he was very fit, uh, very thin, not thin, but um like lean and mean. Yeah um he and everything we think about stoicism today, he kind of exemplified. So his dress was very moder, uh modest um and not um, you know, pompous or uh, you know, like he's trying to show off. Uh he never showed off wealth, even though he was wealthy, right? The whole story is he was taking like a fleet of ships uh past Piraeus, which is a port city of Athens, when it sunk, and that's how he ended up in Athens.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um so and apparently his father was a very, uh, very wealthy uh trader. And like you said, Adam, uh the Phoenicians were known for being uh trading sea people, um, but he did not highlight his wealth. I don't think he had a problem with wealth, um, although he started as a cynic, which really, really um uh doesn't like material wealth. Uh he also was very calm even uh when things were heated. He always stayed, you know, as we say, very stoic. Um so he really represented that faction and he set a standard that was really high. Like one of the things he said was when even when you're insulted, say nothing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00Try that, add that to your list of things that you should do to truly be a good stoic. You know, even even when you're insulted, even when the guy yells at you when you're driving down the street or you're at work and somebody calls you um, you know, bad name or whatever, say nothing. Right. So he he he he did set the standard there, obviously, um, and I'd like to hear what you think about his general demeanor before we go into a lot of the concepts that he put out there. But I I think many Stoics after him, including to today, would do well to look to him not only as the father of Stoicism, with Socrates being the godfather, um, but actually how to live your life and how to present yourself uh as a person. I think you'd be well off following the the uh the the uh kind of standard he set.
SPEAKER_01Right. And I think, you know, when we look at when we look to him as a source of of inspiration and whatnot, you know, what is interesting to me is that we he's another one of these period people from this period whose works don't really exist anymore. Like there's a long list of references to his works, and we have very little of that um available to us, which I think personally looking at the titles, right? Things like um on life according to nature, on impulse, on passions, on duty, um, you know, writings on other works like on nature or on the logos or having just discourses, right? He he has all of these writings that we don't get because he's coming from a time where those writings can be lost easily. And I I'm personally very disappointed. Like, I think if I had a time machine, right, not not to quote the comedian um Dennis Dennis Leary, but like, you know, yes, I would want to travel back somewhere where penicillin still existed, but also I would try to go to his to Xeno's time because there's so much there that we just don't have to us. But one that I think you know we should talk about and kind of lead into, because a big part of this, and we we did an episode on this, right, was um was Xeno's Republic. It's probably the one work we know the most about, likely because of how much it, I guess, um started kept the debate going at the time. So um maybe I know that the the Republic, Xeno's Republic is a big piece of work to you, right, Mick. So maybe we could talk about that a little bit and say, you know, why what it did and what it was acting as in that time period.
SPEAKER_00Yes, absolutely. So uh one more plug for people uh they have the uh privilege really of traveling, uh, and it's kind of where we got our name, right? But if you go to Athens, yeah, uh they found the Stoopolki. So once Zeno um you know had shipwrecked in Piraeus and and basically started following a uh student of Socrates, um, he went to Athens. So it's about uh I don't know, about 15, 15-mile uh uh walk, uh 20-mile walk, uh till you get to Athens, right? So you know everybody knows the Acropolis, right? Below it was the agora, which is kind of like the shopping area. Uh it's also very close to where uh Socrates was uh executed. Um, although I don't think they really know where that is, but you can see what they call Socrates' cave. I would say go there just because uh you're there. It's all very close. Um, and they didn't really know where the stoopolky, which is it just means a porch, just a painted porch. So it was like a big porch, bunch of columns, and then painted scenes and battles that uh uh were won in antiquity for them at the time. Um unlike uh say Plato, uh Plato's Academy, uh, which was a place, a literal place, stoicism, which is very humble, which makes sense, didn't have a place. They simply met on the porch uh and then they'd talk and then they'd walk around the city and the mountains that ring uh Athens and walk up in the mountains. But they found the porch, it was under a taverna, of course. Uh so they they removed the taverna and they dug it up. And I had been going to this pub, it's called the James Choice pub, uh, one of my favorites. It's certainly my favorite in Athens, and it turns out it was right next to the, it was literally like 15 feet. Uh, maybe that's why I liked it so much. I just didn't know. But I would put a plug that uh go have a pint, uh if you so uh abide, or coffee, and next it the James Joyce, sit outside, and you were literally looking right down at the stoa pokey, and you could you can see it being it probably is much more uncovered now since the last time I was there, but you can see it. I mean, literally, you know, it's almost like our Mecca.
SPEAKER_02Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so anyway, that's how we get the name of the the podcast, too. The pub at the porch. But to your point, Adam. I grew up, I mean, everybody read uh Plato's um republic, of course, about politica. Um it it's the central, like you know, what did uh Bertrand Russell say? It's uh everything else is a footnote to Plato's Republic and philosophy. Um totally agree. Uh I grew up reading that. Uh my dad taught a lot of the stories of the allegories that uh Plato used, but I also read uh Xeno's very early on. Not not the uh like you said, Adam, that doesn't exist, but there's a lot of um writers, Diogenes, uh several other uh of the followers of Stoicism and Zeno wrote, so we know a lot about what it said. Yes, right? We do uh it was in many ways a counter to Plato's republic. Plato, you know, I would say he didn't really um promote any specific type of governance, but he talked about all of them, including, I mean, even the philosopher king is an is an autocracy, right? It's just uh an educated autocrat. Yes. Um it's important to point that out. It's like, yeah, I'd like to have a philosopher. Uh if I was gonna have a dictator, I'd like to have one that's actually smart, but um it's still a dictator, right? Um so if you really look at Zeno's, I think depiction of what a model society is, and I get the people who say, like, that's never gonna happen. They're never gonna have no laws and no property and all that stuff. But the same, there was a the same amount of um kind of exaggerated thinking is also in Plato's Republic. Yeah. Right. So like there's never gonna be a society that matches either one. So that's I'm just gonna you know, caveat it with that. Yeah, but I do think that Zeno's republic really is a not necessarily a precursor, but certainly a roadmap for modern day democracies. Sure. And I I think that's an easy case to make, right? Uh, looking at the overall ideas that Zeno depicted in his republic, starting with equality, right? At the time, and everybody thinks ancient Ashtons was, you know, I was obviously awesome, and it was a birthplace of democracy, and guess what? That was democracy for uh Greek men, right? Right. So uh women at the time, by the way, were much more um uh liberated in Sparta than Athens. Uh essentially in Athens they were like Taliban level, from my understanding. Yeah, uh meaning they were essentially uh meant to stay inside under wraps, not heard, yep, and not taking part in the can't go outside without a veil, right?
SPEAKER_01In ancient Greece. In ancient Athens, I mean.
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's a good point. Um, that didn't just start in other places of the world, it was actually started, or not started, but it was in the present in uh Western civilization as well. Right, and what which we all view, I think rightly as birth-based democracy and individual. But I think if you look at it that way, and and uh he founded the school in 331 BCE, but I think if you look at it that way, um he really promoted the ideas that you know philosophers that have promoted democracy throughout history have emulated, really started with him. So the equality for sure, uh I think he pushed um very hard at a time when people didn't even consider it an issue. Yeah, uh, I would also say meritocracy, right? And what I mean by that is inside of his equality, so whether you're a slave, a female, uh you know, from another place other than Greece, which he obviously was, right? So that's just a little self-interest, but I think he was across the board, uh, believe that. Um, it was your ability to reason that would sway the debate uh and uh be the model for how to govern. Yeah, so that's them, that's meritocracy, right? It's not because your father uh was rich or because you know you were you have some um divine claim to leadership, as you know, Plato talked about the noble eye. It was essentially everybody has a shot, and it's based on your uh ability to reason, which he thought everybody can, and that the reason was which should lead the development of governance for a place. Yeah, and I I have a list, so in my head. Um so if you have any comments on that before I go on, let me know.
SPEAKER_01No, I think I think let's let's continue with that thread. So go ahead.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh the the next thing, the rule of law, right? So the rule of law is a bedrock in democracies, it's not whoever rules uh is the law. Yeah, um, the opposite of that is uh we decide collectively through democracy, either representative democracy or direct democracy, like I think like Athens was, for at least for a time. Um what the rules are. And guess what? Everybody has to abide by them, whether you're on you know, top of the socioeconomic ladder or the bottom. Um again, it goes with equality, it goes with um the idea of logic and reason, but the basic rule of law is a tenet in every demography around the world today. Um and you know, in the US, we and I was uh I uh was an attorney uh a long time ago. Uh but you can see how that played out even in the US Constitution. Yeah, you know, the the concepts that we're talking about now are very easily identified in the US Constitution. And I don't think it's an accident, and I don't think they just had similar ideas. I think it's because the history of Western civilization has always included these stuff, these very core stoic um constructs, yeah, and that it simply impermeated our thought, whether it was you know the Magna Carta, you know, US uh revolution, the French Revolution, um I imagine it had a big impact on Canadian jurisprudence and governance. Yeah. So I think you can see it, it's very clear.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think I think that's a key thing to kind of highlight right now in the conversation because Zeno is writing this at a time where the Peloponnese, the area of Greece that makes up, you know, um Athens, Sparta, all that area, right, is is constantly under threat of autocracy in some way, right? Yeah, it's a threat from the East, from Persians, from the Macedonians, then there's threats from within the Peloponnese with the city-states warring with each other. And so, you know, I think his discussions about the rule of law being paramount, I think, are very important because, you know, there's a chance you're gonna get a dictator or an autocrat who's gonna take over. And to it, I think it I think it's important to note just how radical this concept is of like you might be the strongest, but that shouldn't mean that it doesn't apply to you, right? And um, you know, it's important to put that into context here because he's not saying this as an armchair philosopher or a philosophy teacher or, you know, sitting in a room somewhere. He's saying this out loud, as a as essentially a rebuttal or at least a a dialogue with the the republic coming out from Plato and saying, I don't think that the way it's going is gonna be okay. I think we have to have law to make it make it an even sort of ground for everybody else, so that there's no one person who's above it and everybody else isn't below it. Everybody, everybody has to meet this one level of sort of standard. So in some ways, it's I I almost feel like it's a protest in some ways, where he's saying, like, I I disagree with your autocracy, but he doesn't say that outright, but I think it is something that's there. And it is an important thing to highlight, right? He's saying this, you know, at a time where that's the case. And for you and I, not to go into a 2D, but for you and I on this podcast, we have talked about some of the challenges to democracy today. And I think, you know, um law above all is a is an absolute important concept to get around. I think stoics really rallied around that um as they were going out about their business. So at a at a time and a place where like we are in relative security and safety, hugely where we are. You in the you in the United States, me in Canada, and many of our listeners come from you know the English-speaking world and Western countries that are relatively stable compared to that. But you know, we should not forego the fact that that's a that you know the context of that was huge for them. They it you could you could be free one day and a slave the next, right?
SPEAKER_00So absolutely. Yeah. Um as you know, we my group does a lot of stuff in conflict areas around the world and humanitarian. And um not only should we realize how good we have it in the West, but we should realize how others don't. So and and understand that collectively, it's not just the US, but collectively, a lot of the very developed world uh has cut their support uh to these crises around the world. And I'm not talking I'm talking basic core support, like people like children getting fed. And uh it's it's it's uh had a huge impact, but not to not to go get on my soapbox um, which I guess I'm right now. But get to back on my stoic soapbox, which I consider the same, one of the same. The other uh things that I think were core to the republic of Xeno uh was universal education, right? It goes with meritocracy and it goes with um the idea that we want the best, and the best will come out through education, right? If only the rich get educated and all the you know the serfs uh essentially go from um you know being an infant to working in the fields, uh we're not gonna get the best, right? So the whole idea of a philosopher king, we refer to a philosopher king, uh kind of the uh meritocracy of you know the Roman leaders, uh that actually had to do with the fact that they could choose one rather than just have that person be the genetic heir, right? And that's why there's so much focus on you know who many consider to be the philosopher king, Marcus Aurelius, making what many would say the wrong choice with picking Commodus Vice, uh going with meritocracy of uh which is how he was chosen, the tax romana, the five, right, good uh good emperors. But this this concept really started there with the idea that and he was revolutionary when he said, Hey, you know, women can go to school too, or should go to school too. Yeah, you know, I was like, what? Um that's that's uh a core or principle. Another core principle of today um is human rights. Yes, like it's hard to believe at one time people are like, What? They don't they it's it was like either you fought and got it or you didn't, and either you ended up in the the have class or the have nots, right? But human rights really is for the people who can't necessarily stand up for themselves, right? You don't need a king to have human rights, right? Yes, he's the king or she's the queen, right? So it's it is it is the protection of the minority, is another way to say it. So it's it is and which is a core principle of all democracies. It's not just um uh democracy in uh mob rules, right? Is another way to look at it. If you can easily keep down uh the minority, either philosophical minority or you know, racial or ethnic groups or religious minority, yeah, um, if you don't have this universal concept of human rights, which means anybody and everybody should have a core set of rights that can't be taken away.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think that there's a there's a thread that runs between other other people in this, like Musonius Rufus and whatnot, about this equality of education, equality of access to education, we should call, I should say it more like that. Because I don't know, it just like, well, there's a common concept that runs through stoicism, which is uh like of the beehive, right? What's good for the hive is good for the bee. And I I feel like this is a concept that really resonates with that, the education concept, right? Like, like, you know, in some ways I think Zeno's taking a stand on this in a place where, as you've already highlighted, we've already highlighted is was very patriarchal and like I would say chauvinistic, right? And then on the flip side, you know, so I think he's doing that because he's trying to protest against that, but on the flip side, I think as well, he has a basic belief, at least I felt like this, and many Stoics have this, where it's sort of like if we all get more educated, then we all kind of move up together, right? I I do think I uh in some ways, like as much it's interesting because we were talking about this concept in an earlier episode about stoicism and its connection to the military, right? Or and some people think it's connection to war, but I think it's more the connection to the military, which is not the same thing. But I think stoicism has a deep connection to education. Like you should have access to these things, you should talk about these things, you should look for wisdom. I mean, wisdom is a core concept of the four basic tenets of Stoicism, right? And you know, I think it starts with people like Xeno from the beginning when they say everybody should be able to be educated, right? And I'm probably extra I'm probably stretching that out a little bit from what was said back in the original text, but at the same time, for someone in that period to say women should be able to be taught is like that's like I said, it's almost a form of protest towards the common, the common everyday life that was, you know, ancient Greece. So um I just that's something that I think is really important to bring up, right? Um, in a day and age today where people are where where it almost feels like there's a war on education, or people talk about the educated elite, and I'm always like, I was brought up in a time and place where education was meant to be um a path towards higher higher levels of existence for everybody. And I and you know, I've always believed that, and I feel like that does align well with Stoicism, but you know, in the time where this is happening, like to talk about slaves being educated. I mean, that slavery is not exactly slavery in this time period is a lot different than slavery in later periods of human history, but um, you know, I do think it's it's again some kind of protest. So did Zeno have slaves? That's an interesting thing that people ask, and you kind of go, I don't I don't think we would know. Maybe he did. I don't think he would have, but maybe he did. I don't think he would have.
SPEAKER_00I mean, not just because I want to defend him, which I do, but I've never seen any indication that he did. Yeah, nor do I think his economic status would have allowed it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00There's an interesting let's hear from our our history listeners. Yeah, history listeners.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00From our seen anything that even questioned that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I think in some ways it's probably irrelevant because because there were so many types of slavery back in the day than the sort of the type of slavery that we hear most about today. Not saying slavery is good. We're not saying that. We are saying instead that at that time period it was a much different thing. You could sell yourself into economic slavery for a set period of time back in the day, for example, in order to pay off debts. So it's one of those things where it's not, it's not, that's still not great, but it's certainly a thing. So but yeah, I think this threat of education is important to highlight from him because he he talks about it, then Musonius talks about it, Epictetus himself, when he comes about as a is an educated slave at first, right? And I think you know that's a key key thread.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Um, another part that we've talked about, because it has to do with first the first amendment too, is this idea of public discourse and deliberation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. So he promoted that, I think, pretty strongly in his uh republic. And we're seeing certainly in autocracies, you see uh the absence of free speech, right? It's you become a terrorist if you say something against uh the powers that be, and you're um basically silenced. We saw it during the you know, we talked about the stoic opposition during uh many of the bad emperors, if you will, yeah, of the Roman Empire. Um and one of the things that they some of them were executed for simply speaking out against what they uh disagreed with. Uh and the last thing that I will highlight for on the Zeno's Republic that I think is very, very relevant today is this idea of a global citizen, right? Cosmopolis, uh, which is a big tenet of stoicism. The way I viewed it, and the way I see it is very relevant today, and maybe it's just the way I view the world, but it is not that we're gonna have one giant government that's not gonna work. That would I mean we can barely do the governments that we have now um uh efficiently or any in any manner that would indicate we could do a worldwide government. But to me, it is that we should promote the ideas that we've been talking about uh and that are democratic principles because it's good for, like you said, it's not just good for the individual to be educated, it makes society better, right? Right? It makes society better that people are it's a meritocracy where the most capable are selected, not just in political leadership, but all leadership. Um and that's that's good, and I think we should promote that around the world, and I think we should base our alliances on that. So when I like think of global citizenship, that's what I do. And we've talked about this as well. The the rise of autocratic autocratic systems is intense. It is it's going up, civil liberties is going down around the world. People who live in a place where they can speak freely are becoming less and less. So I equate the two uh that the idea of uh global citizenship is that it's to promote the idea internationally of individual civil rights, a democracy based on uh the power of the people, not the power of you know, the sword, so to speak. And that was something that he pushed, certainly at a time when people wouldn't have most people wouldn't even had a clue what he was talking about. But I think even if you disagree with it, today you'd say, Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's globalism. You're a globalist, right? That's like a bad word for your isolationist, right? Uh that's not necessarily what I'm saying. I'm a globalist, by their definition, is different than what I'm saying. But the idea of kind of like the shining city on the hill, democracies should support one another and set the course for other countries to follow, that I think is very much uh in keeping with this concept.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And you know, there's even a basic part of Zeno's story, which I think relates to globalism, which is the fact that as a mock he as a Phoenician coming to Athens, he's an outside, he's technically an outsider, right? He's a Hellenized Phoenician, you're totally right, but he's coming from the outside. And I think, you know, you've got like in terms of globalism, he he comes from trade, and he comes from, you know, essentially someone who moves around for a living, right? And he he he enters into Athens at a time where um not every not every outside group is really looked upon favorably, right? There's definitely some xenophobia at the time, right? Greece definitely.
SPEAKER_00That's where the word came from, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, exactly, right? Not not xeno, but uh not xeno, no, but zit yeah, zen, yeah, because there's there's the Greek concept of xenia, which is this idea of like the open door, you welcome in outsiders. Then there's xenophobia, which is is actually a fear of the outsiders, which is it's an interesting dichotomy of Greece. I'm sure we could do a whole podcast on that. But um, you know, I think you know, when we talk about globalism today, right, there's a lot of discussions today, and I won't go into them, but there's a lot of discussions today about immigration and free trade and all of that stuff. And then you can see that these are these are, and I know I've said this before on the podcast, these are concepts that we were wrestling with 2,500 years ago, right? And we're still trying to sort that out. But ultimately, you know, Zeno, I think, as a symbol of who he is as a man, he's coming from Phoenicia. Like there's a there's a whole thing about ancient Greece being, you know, a bunch of old white guys. Well, Zeno's not, he's not from Greece, he's from another place. And he's bringing in a he's bringing in a philosophy and a concept that you know the Greeks. Um, I was reading a thing about how the Greeks thought that he was like Cadmus. Cadmus was a famous uh hero who brought the alphabet to the Greeks, is what they used to say. And so it's like, you know, so this globalist idea is actually something that resonates deeply within the Xeno story because he's not from Greece, right? He brings them, they say when he was buried with high honors, right? And so it's I think that's important for people to realize, you know. But I mean, this is the same with everything. I mean, throughout Stoicism, you have these people that don't come from the place where it's always thought to originate from, right? Um, you know, um uh I'm trying I'm trying to think what his name is. Uh Nero's so that's Marcus and Epictetus and Seneca. Seneca, excuse me, Seneca. Seneca's from Spain, which is a Roman province, but he's not from Rome, right? And all of that. And I think there is a globalist link to a lot of that stuff, and we have to take that into account with his story. So now there's something interesting you were talking about. I would I'd like to interject a little bit and bring this up because it was an interesting thing, and Ryan's book Lives of the Stoics brings this up. He says, he says that it's actually not known when Zeno's when the shipwreck occurred in that story about how Zeno got started in philosophy. It's not known whether or not the shipwreck made him destitute or whether it was just such a bad shipwreck that it shook him emotionally. He obviously comes from a family of traitors. The Phoenicians were all traitors, really, in many cases. Um they people, of course, in Phoenicia would do other things, but it's like for someone in Zeno's position, he would have been a traitor. And it was interesting hearing, like reading, I was rereading Ryan's chapter in Lives of the Stoics on this, where he talks about how we don't know whether he was maybe after this, he wasn't really monetarily affected, but it did make him rethink his life to see this, you know, great fortune wash up on the shores of Piraeus. And that was it, I thought that was an interesting thing to kind of talk about quickly as well, which was, you know, Zeno, Zeno has, we don't really know what his background is, but I think that in many ways he really wouldn't want us to care. Like he doesn't talk about wealth in any way, shape, or form, like it's a good thing or a bad thing. He sort of has um he's sort of indifferent to it, right? But at the same time, you know, I think it's important to note that that if he was a really rich trader and this this would have only taken away one percent of his wealth and he would have still been fine forever, he's still someone who, with all of this money, who didn't have to care about anything and could maybe maybe he would never need it to worry about anything and work another day in his life, anyways, he still takes the time to form this philosophy where the greater good is a key concept there, right? And I think that's a really important thing going on today. There's a lot of talk today about where the wealth sits and what people are doing with their wealth. And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna say anything specific on that one, but I think, you know, I would look to someone like Zeno. When people say they read Stoicism, and we've talked about Stoicism being something misconstrued as a money philosophy, Zeno himself is like it's he never he almost never talks about it. He completely talks about teaching everyone and law for everyone, and it's a very social philosophy, right? And I think that's a key thing to take away from his life is that, you know, if he did lose everything, then it's it's if he did lose everything, then it's it's still a great story because he lost everything and then built a philosophy up that allowed him to overcome that. But if he didn't lose everything, and this merely changed his life around, then you know it's almost uh it's almost a a Dickensian story of like he all he he learned that he needed to be better for everybody else and learned that and created a philosophy of caring about the greater good more than anything. And that's an interesting that's to me is an interesting story. I'd it would be great to know, but I we'll never know. It's too long ago now. But it's an interesting thing to think about.
SPEAKER_00That is a that's an interesting debate and one that will never be settled, but just thinking about it logically, and the two scenarios you say laid out, Adam. So if he did come from, and everybody does think he came from a wealthy trader family, yeah, even so he either didn't lose everything, but he still decided to focus on philosophy and developing this. But even if he did lose everything, if he if he was more interested in wealth, he would simply go back to his family and start over, right? I mean, they didn't they didn't all, I mean, at least that we know of, they didn't all perish in the in the shipwreck. So if that was truly the case and he was not the person we think he is, he could have just got another ship back to I mean Cypress ain't that far. Um and and gone back to trading, which he obviously knew how to do. So I think either way, what happened was he was inspired to do something other, and there's nothing wrong with business. I mean, we I speak at a lot of stoic events uh that have business persons. I mean, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm look, I work in a I I work in a normal company, so I get it. I I understand it.
SPEAKER_00Somebody's got to pay the taxes, right? Yeah, somebody's gonna pay the business. Right. So uh yeah, no, I I'm I'm I'm not a business person necessarily, but I I certainly yeah I don't know how you could be anti-business, but um, I guess some people are. But that that is it's not about like it's bad to have. And I think that's one of the reasons why I left cynicism. Cynicism would, you know, I mean, at least at the time, not the way we view the word, um, was just completely against material wealth. Yeah. But then you'd ask, well, how do they get fed? You know, well, because the people who make money feed them, right? And that's that's not well, that's like, okay, well, that's uh, you know, that's not, I think, I don't know, but it's another speculation on my part. Yeah, if you're free to disagree with me, is that's one of the reasons why he left cynicism, start stoicism, is he realized that this idea that you could just you know exist and and not um work to to gain any kind of material wealth was also a fallacy. Yeah. I mean, what if everybody did that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Right. Um, that's yeah. But I think he would hold, he would say there's an accountability probably for the wider for the wider society that we live in, right? And especially if you do well. Yes, especially if you do well. But I I read an interesting passage that maybe we should close maybe we should try to close with, which is like I read an interesting passage where someone said, nobody ever gave me everything, and then it was like, oh, so you the roads that you drove on to work, the computer system that you used, all of those things, like you did all of that, right? It's like you have to remember that we are this greater sort of connected society. And and Zeno, I think would always that would always have resonated with him that we were we we are sort of a we are an interconnected web of people, even people you don't know, you are somehow touched in your life by them and they by you. So, which I think is really important. So, but it's probably a good point for us to close here. But um, it's I I think you know, I would I would urge everyone, right? Because a lot of people ask Mick and I when we go to events or when we talk about this, a lot of people ask us, like, where do I start and whatnot? And I would say, totally start with the three big ones, right? You know, Marcus, Seneca, and Epictetus. Excuse me for forgetting Seneca earlier. But um the thing is, is that you know, there we do know a lot about our our original, the original creator of this, right? And what's very important to know, I forgot we were we want to make sure we say this that when the Stoics had an opportunity to pick a name for their philosophy, they were they were given basically two options, right? Which was pick a different name or go with Xeno and call themselves Xenoans or Xenos or something like that. And they intentionally chose not to choose Xeno's name because they didn't want a cult of personality, they didn't want it to be, you know, an acolyte of Xeno. It's more like we're Stoics, that's what we are. And um, you know, I think that's a really important thing here because it's it's sort of there's a selflessness to that. I don't think Zeno wanted everyone, I don't I really don't think Zeno would have wanted everyone to think about him in some, you know, so sort of king of philosophy type of way. But um I think it's I think you know it's important for everybody out there. I think Mick and I would both recommend learning a little bit more about him. He's a really interesting person. I wish we had all his writings. He has so much out there that's lost. Um, but yeah. So do you have any closing thoughts for us today, Mick, before we sign off?
SPEAKER_00Well, only that, you know, Zeno's closing thoughts when he at least legend has it, when he died, he accepted it without, you know, drama, without anything. He just said, I guess it's my time, essentially, right? Um, and I think so. My closing remarks are that Zeno kind of set the standard, not just you know, for the birth of the philosophy, but how to live, how to be how to be, and what to value.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think that's a good place to end. Okay, everyone. Well, thank you, Mick, for today's conversation. That was great. And everyone else, we'd love to hear from you, especially your first thoughts on Zeno, or if you're just encountering him now, or differently. So feel free to reach out to us. But for now, we'll sign off. So thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com. And you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for Stoicism, send it to us, and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Today's music was provided by BenSound.com. Until next time, Popin Porch Out.