Welcome to Pub Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam Pearcy, with my co-host Mick Mulroy here. So today we want to continue on the series where we talk about prominent Stoics of history. And we're going to spend today talking about a man who needs some introduction because he's prominent in the world of sort of stoic history, but he's not as well known as the big three. The big three being Epictetus, Seneca, and Marcus Aurelius. But it's an interesting, it's an interesting story about this man because he actually taught one of the big three. He taught Epictetus. And that man that we're going to talk about today is Musonius Rufus. So, Mick, uh you had wanted to talk to him a little bit as well. You and I have both been reading Chuck Tracker Panny's book series on Musonius. So, what's your first entry into the world of Musonius Rufus today?
SPEAKER_01So I think he's called the Roman Socrates, right? And it might be for the reasons you just laid out. Although Socrates is obviously hugely well known, but Socrates being the teacher of Plato, Plato being the teacher of Aristotle, Aristotle being the teacher of Alexander the Great. So there's like a direct lineage. And you know, Zeno pops in there for, you know, as he did go to Plato's academy. Um, but in this case, uh Masonius Rufus, as you already mentioned, was a teacher of Epictetus. Epictetus had several students, many of whom went on to teach Aurelius, if I'm remembering my history as it was thought to be. Right, which is, you know, with Stoicism being a component of it. Um, why do I like him so much? And I really do. Uh, you know, we had that one episode on Stoic as the street philosophy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think he really does, I mean, so did Zeno, of course, but really epitomizes that. He was all about making the philosophy a practical life um guidance, not just uh, you know, academics talking about um this from a kind of sanitized perspective, not actual practitioners, but viewing it just simply as a study in ancient thought, right? He he had many rules on all sorts of levels, right? He he talked about I cut your hair, eat clean and healthy, he talked about what a marriage should be in a very uh and very advanced, and by the way, I was just reading this because um, you know, my son is getting married here shortly. So I was, of course, looking for smart stoic uh wisdom on uh happy marriage. And if you haven't done it, um I suggest reading uh Rufus's description of what a marriage should be because it it would it would rival a modern, I think, interpretation of a marriage. In fact, maybe even more advanced. Um anyway, it was it's phenomenal. Uh he also, I think, is largely responsible for the movement inside Stoicism on physical fitness, mental endurance, um, challenging yourself to endure uh less than comfortable environs. Uh that's all in Busanius Rufus. I mean, literally, they could they might have taken parts of his philosophy on that subject and made what is the modern special operations view of military training. I mean, to be frank. Right. Um he was uh vegetarian, we believe, although it's not quite clear. But he was very specific on eating simply, eating healthily, eating as close to natural as now. There's a whole industry that says the same thing, right? Um so I mean, there's so much to them that I think uh really sets the standard for what a stoic should want to live like. And for if you're looking for be, you know, actual details, because a lot of people like that. They don't just like, uh, you know, be a good person. Okay, that's good. But this is not that you ever you have to follow everything, right? This isn't this isn't a religion, it's not a dog, it's not a dogmatic scenario. But he does lay out like in in it's kind of what you would want a stoic to be: humble, not flashy, dresses uh, you know, for purpose, not pizzazz, you know, um, is super healthy, physically fit, uh, you know, all these things that you would you kind of think of a stoic, and not that he was the only one that came up with this, but he came up, he it's very detailed. And how you treat other people, including your spouse and the cornerstone of the society is marriage and a family. And I mean, it was it's a lot of really but and then I'll I'll throw it back to you because I'm sure you have a lot to say on this, but he also walked the walk, right? Yeah, he challenged corruption at a time when the people who were being corrupt could crush him. Yeah, he accepted exile over complacency willfully. He was part of the Stoic opposition, he was exiled um several times. I really want to go to that island that he started the colony of philosophers on. Uh I really do, because I love that stuff. But you know, he walked the walk, is what I'm saying. It wasn't again, street philosophy actually had really sound everyday advice, and he showed that his uh his thoughts uh are willing to fight for. Um and in his case, you know, willing to really endure a lot of um ostracism, uh being ostracized and uh exile, you know, especially during the time of Nero.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, and I think you know, he has some parallels in his life with with other prominent philosophers of that period. I mean, it's funny when you think about it, because it's you know, in the period that that we generally study the real apex of stoicism in history, it's that thing where you're kind of like, these philosophers are facing off with emperors, essentially, right? And nowadays, I don't know if that I don't you know, I don't know if we would see that again. It's just not the same. At least they're not there's not a prominence of you know having that kind of debate right now. So the thing that I take away from Masonius when I read him, it's it's interesting because when when you look at the big three that everyone talks about, right, that I opened with. So we're talking Marcus, Seneca, and Epictetus, right? Usually people talk about them being on a spectrum where Epictetus is on the hard lines end of the spectrum, and then Seneca is on the sort of much looser end of the spectrum, and then Marcus is right in the middle. And Musonius is it's interesting to me because I think Musonius falls in between Marcus and Nero, or excuse me, Marcus and Seneca. And I find that interesting for two reasons. One, because uh there's just such a practical applicability of what he talks about, but two, because being the tutor of Epictetus, right, it's interesting how how how hard line Epictetus goes in his discourses, where he's he's quite strict, is all I'm saying. I don't I honestly I think it's a relative range, right? It's uh ultimately, you know, stoics are are quite understanding, I think, in their philosophy. So that's the first takeaway I take away from you, Sonia's is where does he fit within that spectrum, right? Like if you have a graph, right, and it's like strict versus, you know, um, I guess uh sticking to to you know strict versus real life or whatever I would say, you know, it's so interesting to find where they fall when you look at that 50-50 line all the way up. So that's my first takeaway from you, Sonius, right? And you were kind of talking about that. I mean, he has lectures on hairstyles, which it sounds odd, but in a world, in the world, in the Roman world, it was such a visual practice to kind of, you know, you were showing yourself off. It's it's it's when you know how personal appearance made people, like it sets your status, it sets how you're treated, right? Even the color you wear, whether you're wearing a veil or not, right? If you're a woman, for example, you know, once you once you understand the context of it, you start to go, oh, like this is really practical. This is like an everyday thing for them, right? Which is which is uh, you know, I think where it falls in there. Now, the thing that I really like about Musonius for sure, though, is that he's also incredibly progressive, right? Um, I mean, obviously he's teaching Epictetus, who's a former slave, so it shows that he he sort of teaches anybody, but he also agrees with he also agrees with um uh he's basically an early feminist, we would call them now. I'm sure there are other feminists in history, even going far back, you know. I would say even Socrates probably was a feminist to some degree. But Musonius absolutely is one. He's definitely got vote uh lectures dealing with uh women, right? He arguing that they are equal in a marriage, for example, and you were talking about that too. But I think calling him a feminist is really not wrong. It's just a modern word for kind of how he was. And there's a there's a real social progressivism to him that I really think is it's kind of interesting, right? Because if you change some of the language of his translations, it it wouldn't really feel that out of place today, depending on what kind of social activism discussions you were having, right? And um, you know, I think that's I think to me that's a big one where you kind of think, okay, so you know, because minimalism and whatnot, that that is that is a little bit wider around, right? Like Musonius was sort of taken from the cynics, and then there's also like Eastern, Eastern Asian traditions that are very minimalist as well. But um and I don't want to take away from that. I just mean like his feminism is something that is really not seen that much, and I think to me that's a big one that sticks out. And I'm I'm frankly, I'm very proud that that's part of you know the core roots of uh our philosophical traditions, at least. So um tenderized, you know, and then you know, I think as well, what's what what's interesting to me is just that it very much like Epictetus, he sort of has a handbook of like 12 quick lessons, right? But he also has these lectures that have survived. He's one of the ones whose lectures have survived, I think. Like him and him and Epictetus, the lectures have survived. Now Epictetus's lectures weren't written by Epictetus, they were, I think, notes from Arian, right? So Musonius is almost well, his students ones have recorded his too.
SPEAKER_01I think it was Lucius's. I think Musonius Rufus's student Lucius was the primary.
SPEAKER_00Oh, they're recorded by Lucius as well. Yeah, yeah. But it is one of the primary accounts, right? Like from lectures. Again, it makes him different from Marcus, where Marcus is not lecturing, Marcus is sort of conversing with himself, right? So, anyways, I those are my initial takeaways I take from Musonius Rufus. Um, you know, I'm sure, you know, it's always difficult to kind of uh equate someone from that period to today, but Musonius he does it pretty well, frankly. He does it pretty well, and you don't get the sense that um you kind of have to like with some things certain people say about slaves, right, when it comes to Roman philosophers of any kind or Greek philosophers, um, you do kind of have to uh look at that through the lens of history and know the context for that. Musonius doesn't really he seems to be a little bit easier on that kind of part of history.
SPEAKER_01So the uh issue of the woman's rights, I mean it is actually a pretty consistent part of stoic philosophy.
SPEAKER_00Yes, right.
SPEAKER_01If you look at Zeno's Republic, which was, I mean, I think Lusanius Rufus was born around 30 AD, if I'm correct. And then uh Zeno's Republic would have been 300 BC, right? So 300 years plus before uh Musonius, you had Zeno saying essentially the same thing. It's it's in fact specifically saying women should be allowed to be completely educated just like men. And I know today it's like, well, no kidding, man. I mean, it's like, well, no, this was 2300 years ago. And there's plenty of places, I would imagine, majority of places in the world, women aren't equal now, right? So, um, and I it's it's important to highlight one because it's an important issue, of course, but it's also somewhat not contrary, but not exactly what you think of when you think of Stoics. Like you usually think of men for whatever reason, uh, and you think of like soldiers and businessmen and athletes and maybe scientists. But um, you know, there's not that many women. Uh, and we of course need to change that. We need to uh broaden it. Uh and there's and there's ample reason. Like we're the original, I think, philosophy that actually pushed for equality across the genders, um, well before, well before um other philosophies and religions, which still haven't come entirely embraced it everywhere. But I think that is an important point. But if you really want to have and people do look for this, and there's all sorts of modern movements. Um, when I was doing research for this, a lot of people use elements uh of Rufus's um lectures to promote certain parts of a lifestyle. There's nothing wrong with that, right? Eating healthy, for example. It's a lot easier way back then because they they didn't have industrial food, but um, but you know, and then we've always like we talk about a lot, you know, taking the uh extreme view of uh not extreme, but physical fitness. And by the way, um uh if you didn't see the Corcadona 250, I think that's how you pronounce it. A to to wrap this together, a woman won the 256-mile race across Arizona against everybody.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I heard about it.
SPEAKER_01Everybody. Um, and her name, I have seen it, I looked it up, it's actually Scottish. Uh what is her name?
SPEAKER_00We shouldn't I will hear the wrong Celtic name. That's who wins.
SPEAKER_01Uh 250 winner. Sorry, but I think for somebody who wins a 250 mile.
SPEAKER_00256 mile.
SPEAKER_01Her name was Rachel Antriken. Rachel Hentriken. Her name deserves to be mentioned on the stoic uh in the stoic world. Because and you know, he talks about he being Rufus talks about you know, pushing herself, endurance, you know, being tough, quite frankly. And she was everything, she was all that. I mean, she's run by a pretty pretty big margin. Uh, and it's you know, anyway, so that she's a good example of both the idea of equality and the idea of pushing oneself in an endurance sport that is. I mean, I just I've done I think six ultras, uh nothing that even close to that far. And it is a it is is psychological as much as it is anything. Yes, it's physical, right? Your body just starts falling apart, and I've only gone up to like 50 miles. Um I don't even know how one would do that times five, to be frank. But it's the it's the mental, it's the mental ability to push yourself so far beyond where your body's telling you you shouldn't be, that it's just completely uh inspiring to me. So I mean, good on totally. Yeah. So that so I think that is something that we're seeing a lot of modern stoics talk about and the people who want to follow the philosophy. If you really want, you know, some guiding principles in your life that are super healthy, I think everybody would agree. Uh, you know, the 21 lectures of uh Sanius Rufus can set you on your way for sure.
SPEAKER_00Totally. So I think one of the big things with um Musonius Rufus, and and this is something, you know, and Ryan Holidays talked about this a little bit, right? About how it's a core part of philosophy to be socially active, right? For social activism to be a key part of your life. And this so this is something that's not uncommon to Musonius Rufus, but he specifically talks about it, right? And um, you know, something I find for him is that he ends up going through two exiles, right? He gets exiled under um, I can't, I think it's uh oh, he gets he gets exiled under Nero twice, actually. That's what it is. He gets exiled under Nerus twice, and I Nero twice, excuse me. And you know, this is this is something that is it's common for philosophers throughout that era. They get expelled. I mean, Hadrian expels all the philosophers, right? For example, and um, and then they come back slowly and Marcus gets to encounter them again. But I think, you know, um Rufus, I think, has a really good way of doing the social activism side, where he's sort he's sort of like, you know, doing good is not disobedience, it's still obedience, even if you're countermanding something like that your parents tell you or that like, you know, leaders tell you, like if you're doing the right thing, if you know that, you have to stand up and do that. And again, you know, these are repeated topics within stoicism, but I think it's important for everyone to understand just how core something like that is to the philosophy. Like if you're uh if you're uh a cynic or something like that, you know, it just doesn't have within the philosophy this idea that you're gonna, you're gonna kind of be like that. Um it's, you know, cynics, in fact, in many ways sort of extricate themselves from that. Or if you have sophists, right, they they sort of believe in just doing what you can to win an argument rather than doing what you can to make social improvements for yourself and others. But it's so core to stoicism. And you know, Musonius has lectures that are titled things like um oh, I had it here and I lost it. Sorry. You have you have people, you know, um, well, even the even the women and men are equal lecture, or the women should receive the same education as men lectures. That's that's social activism. And he is outwardly standing up and talking about those things, right? And again, you know, it's one of those, it's one of those very prominent parts of the philosophy, but Musonius is one of the ones who does it. And he's doing this before, like he's teaching Epictetus this, right? And this is before Marcus Aurelius. And Mark, we know Marcus Aurelius has exposure to Musonius's writings and Epictetus' writings because um he talks about it. Like we know there's a he sort of references, he's making a quote in one of his journal entries about something from an Epictetus journal that now no longer we don't have any of those fragments, like it doesn't exist anymore. So the thing is, is like, you know, this is carrying forward. And I think this is if you were to contrast Musonius with Seneca, right? Who were then they're existing at the same time. Seneca takes a different approach. He's sort of some people call him a collaborator. I don't know if I would say that, but Seneca is in this interesting position where he's tutoring the emperor, but he's also the richest man in Rome, and he's, you know, I think there's this weird balance he's trying to strike. And I'm, you know, I think I'm with most people now where I'm like, I'm not sure he strikes that balance really well. But at the same time, like, you know, he is at least a stoic and he is trying to, you know, do the right thing to some degree. I uh, you know, you I think you and I have talked about this before. Like, if Seneca's with Nero and all that, and we know how good Seneca is, how bad would Nero have been had Seneca not been around at all, right? It's like, oh yeah, it probably would have been a lot worse. But the social activism is a big thing. I mean, to do to go through two exiles and a third return, you know, that's a that's a pretty significant thing. Like Seneca didn't make it through, like, you know, eventually he gets sentenced to death by his student, Nero, right? And I think, you know, Musonius somehow gets out of that one, and and that's what happens. So, so, but that's a key thing for me for sure. It's because it's one of the ones where he prominently says that. Like, Marcus, Marcus social activism is more like do the right thing, you know, if it's not right, don't do it. But but Musonius is sitting there going, no, no, no, step in, do these things, right? Make that happen.
SPEAKER_01Yep. Step in and speak up. I mean, I don't know another philosophy where that's really the core, a core element. Am I missing one? Where it's it's not just uh, you know, do the right thing, focus on yourself, on you know, being a good person, and you can find all your happiness within your own grasp. I mean, there's elements to that, but it's stoicism doesn't stop there at all. I mean, it's it's always been, I mean, the stoic opposition. I mean, think about it that way, right? I mean, it's it's to to not only are you supposed to do the right thing, but you're supposed to inspire others to do the right thing, and you're supposed to call out people that are essentially the opposite. You know, people that oppress other people, people that are corrupt, people that are Honest. Um it's it's it's a it's a clear part of how I view uh Stoicism, not not an obnoxious point of view or um you know using violence or what have you, but certainly like a sit-in, for example, uh uh you know, if you think about you know segregated uh restaurants in the South, and a sit-in was you sit in there and you make sure that um uh you know uh African Americans at the time could sit in a diner too and you're willing to sit next to them and you know and take the consequences. So that would be that would be an activist that I'm the kind of that I'm talking about, and a kind that I think uh stoicism really promotes. And then and one more point on that. I think obviously if you're advocating for things that directly impact you, right? So like you're you're a woman and you're advocating for women to be included in you know everything, that's great. That's great. But I I think what really sets the standard is when you're advocating for somebody else's rights, yeah. Right. So if um until that happens, I mean most people advocate for their own rights, then there's nothing wrong with that. But when you're not of the group and you're advocating for it, I think that's the highest form of social activism to be Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think you know, there's that saying which I can't remember if it's Greek or Japanese. I don't remember what it is, but it's like, you know, you can tell a lot by a civilization when they plant trees that they won't be able to enjoy, right? Or you know, by uh by uh an age or a group. And I think that's I think that's one of those things that that definitely is is so prevalent in stoicism. I think it's important here talking about social activism as well to discuss the context and um that relates with today, right? In the in the time period in which you have Socrates through until, well, essentially, Marcus, right, there is extreme levels of upheaval in the world in which they're living in, right? And it's it's I don't think it's a coincidence that the birth of democracy in Athens meets with Socrates and the birth of other philosophies. And then that time period leading around 300 when Zeno's coming up, right? You know, that's a follow-on from Plato. That's a, you know, like because Zeno's got that uh counter to the Plato's republic, right? But that's also another great time of upheaval. Rome is expanding. They're still a republic, right? They're expanding on their peninsula. And then when you get to like the start of the, when you get to the start of um the end of the republic, I should say, right? There's a there are prominent stoics coming forward again, right? You have your Cato's Brutus, was a Stoic, right? He was uh I think he was Cato's son-in-law, right? And then and then and then you have Cicero, who a lot of people would say he's more of a peripatetic. He's not a stoic, he's sort of a mixture, or he's at least a reflect.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you learn a lot from writing Cicero.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And then you have, but then so then as the republic sort of falls apart and you end up with the first emperor, right? And you get the first of the empire, then you know, you also have these prominent Stoics stepping forward because, and I think it's just that thing of it's this whole upheaval uh circumstance happening right now, and people are looking for something for guidance, right? And people like Musonius come about because you know, you're you when you're when you are surrounded by the roiling waters of politics, well, you know, you're in a you're in a place where it's the first real constitution, right? It's the first real um, you know, uh elected uh like sort of executive and legislative body system being put forward in a in a place uh for the first time. I think it's very important to keep in mind that they could that, you know, it didn't have to be that stoics came up at that time. I think people were looking for something. And then if you relate to that today, this is why I think you know you and I are both recommending Musonius to people for sure. I mean, he's an original, is that today with the political upheaval we've seen, especially in the 20th century, in the latter heart of the part of the 20th, and then now the 21st century, you know, I think people are looking for that guidance, right? And it comes from things like philosophy, a bit of a rule book, as it were, a handbook, if you were to use, you know, the Encaridian example from Epictetus. And so I think Musonius comes out at a time that's very, that's very much filled with upheaval politically and socially, right? Rome's going through a huge social upheaval, right? Christianity is around, so it's not just politics. There's this whole, you know, spiritual heart of Rome kind of being pulled in multiple directions type of thing, and Stoics are there. And I think, you know, that's in my in my opinion, that's why people like Musonius resonate so heavily today because of this upheaval that we're seeing again in politics across the globe. I'm not talking about anywhere specifically. Everybody seems to have something to debate today.
SPEAKER_01Yes, right. Uh, and always remember the stoic notion that you don't have to have an opinion on everything. Uh, I tell my thoughts that um uh another thing that I would bring up for Rufus is that he inspired so many uh people in the future on his ability to accept uh his trial with humility and and really just focusing on what he could do with the situation. You know, whether it's Victor Frankel who um you know created a whole psychology, uh logos uh, you know, in large part says he endured the concentration camps of the Nazis um by his understanding of Epictetus and his teacher Lusanius Rufus. Right. So it's it is that in that, you know, I think it was Frankel who and I'll paraphrase because I don't have it in front of me, but if you have uh the why you can withstand uh the how um meaning, and I think I sc I screwed that uh quote up, but it ultimately is talking about you know, if you have a purpose in life, you can endure a lot of shit. Right? Um and that's and that's and Frankl's a great example of that. But also if you look at um uh Nelson Mandela when he would read Epictetus in the Robins Prison in South Africa, I mean this is this is these two, you know, and one was a student of the other has inspired people uh through history uh that's endured horrible things. Uh Stockdale, you know, was a POW. I mean, he said, you know, I'm entering the world of Epictetus. I mean, if you go down the list, um it's not just the lofty uh uh social activism, which I think is incredibly important, but it's also the ability to realize that at the end of the day you have uh control of your own dignity and how you react to things are yours. How how things react to you, things that happen to you, in many cases are not up to you. And that's uh I think he's one of the main figures, along with Epictetus, of course, that really inspired people throughout history, even till today.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think uh, you know, the reason why these things resonate so much is because in of their universality, right, in so many of these cases. So I think it's best for us to wrap up there. Um, but we should uh close the primary part of our talk by mentioning that um we're a lot of what Mick and I are citing today is from a book called Stoic Lessons, Musonius Rufus Complete Works. This is part of uh the series called Stoicism in Plain English by Dr. Chuck Chakrapani, friend of the podcast, know Chuck well. So uh uh he actually lives uh here in Ontario where I live. So um, so yeah, so uh uh you know definitely check that out. It's easy to find. And um, you know, I think we would both recommend that. But for today, I think we're gonna wrap up there. But we would love to hear uh from the audience as to, you know, if maybe you're experiencing Musonius for the first time or he's been a longtime friend of yours as you've read him over the years. We'd love to hear from you and your opinions. So info at pubampporch.com or give us a comment on the video uh on YouTube when this comes out, and uh, we'd love to hear from you because he's uh he's an interesting one. I I sort of think of him as the fourth, right? Uh he's not the big three, he's the other one. He's the other beetle, as it were. So all right, Mike. Well, thanks thanks for today's chat. We will talk to you on the next one. Cheers. Slotcha.
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