Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life. Hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, with my co-host Mick Mulroy. Thanks for joining us again. This week, Mick and I will be finishing our conversation on selecting leaders and airing part two of that conversation. We didn't want to have too long of an episode for everybody last week, so we split this up into two parts, which is something we don't do a lot of, but uh we thought maybe it would be nicer for our audience if there was something a little more manageable in their podcast queue. So without further ado, Mick is going to take us away with the remainder of that conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think there's two parts too, right? So you do want your positions to be represented. That's why you vote for people. But it's both they align with your positions. And as you know, I'm up on the right side of the political spectrum on the left, obviously. Um, but then there's also the person, right? Like right now, people seem to be totally willing, as long as they agree with them politically, to pick people who you wouldn't trust babysit. Right. You know what I mean? Like at all, ever. I know. Um, and it's I think it's twofold. Like, I think you can have really good people who are both left, right, and center.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We need to get people who are actually good people to be in all whoever, whatever their political ideology is. And that's the problem. And if they can't just do it, which they obviously cannot, then I think you know what I would push for is a in my system, it would either be a law, an amendment to the constitution, uh, or some or some version of that. Because what I think is I would obviously promote using stoicism. So wisdom, justice, self-discipline, uh what's the last one? Justice, wisdom, uh, courage, courage, definitely courage. Um, right? But it has to like act, it can't just say that, right? Because they're like, oh yeah, everybody does that. No, but that means you got to turn over all your stocks, uh, not just keep harping on that, but that's a big issue, especially now. Uh, you know, most people that are in the stock market just have an index fund or something, right? So it's not like they have to have it. If they really have to have the ability to do day trading, then don't go into political office where you can hear insider stuff. So you can then go, you know, essentially use your uh unavailable knowledge to enrich yourself. If that's really important for you, then stay as a stay outside, right? I think we should have term limitations for everybody that holds elective office. Why? That's service, right? That means it's service. It's like military service in the sense that you, you know, in a lot of a lot of countries you have to go serve, but you don't have to do it for a career because you are doing something bigger than yourself, right? It's not like you could not want to be a career soldier, but you go, you do your time, you yeah, and it, you know, in our system, you could also do it as AmeriCorps or Peace Corps or something, right? If you're not in the military. So I think I think political leadership should be the same, but it should be a term limits. You come, it's good enough for the president, should be good enough for the congressman for the from the you know 73rd district of California, that you have a certain amount of time. And you either go and you you try to do, you know, what best you can for the country, and then you go back and get a real job. But now we have careerists that stay in and somehow become the wealthiest people in society taking a government paycheck, and it just doesn't jive. Right. Um, and then we find out that they're, you know, misogynists, sexualists, predators, all these other things. It seemed to be somehow now that these people in society have have kind of migrated to public service when it's supposed to be the opposite. So I think we got to have specific laws that say what you can and can't do. Uh and and because then they're they're obviously not just going to do it on their own accord. And not this is in the US, but it could be anywhere. And this is also, of course, at a time when we're not only seeing corruption go up around the world. If you look at the corruption index, because uh there's groups that keep track of this, right? Because when you're trying to do business overseas, uh that's a real problem.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I mean, you if you have to pay off every official to do business in a country, oftentimes it's not profitable to do business in the country. So in other countries, uh not the US, this affects their ability to actually build their own economy.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Because it's it's so corrupt that you know they can't do outside business because of the level of graft from their elected officials.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01People that aren't elected that are just in power. Um so this is something I think is universal. And the only thing that seems to work is both the law to prevent it and the enforcement of the law. And right now, at least in the US, it seems to be that you will be outraged about the other side's corruption, but accept yours. Until we get to the point, it's like we're not going to accept corruption, period. Then um and this, and that's just it's not just you know self-enrichment, it's also people that are just not the type of people that we want. I mean, yeah, you know, people who cheat on their spouse, people who cheat on their bus with their business partners, you know, leave people in the larch, uh, you know, they're they go into business and they leave and they screw people over. They um, I mean, just go down the list. Those are not, I mean, people make mistakes, right? I'm not I'm not uh the person to sit up here and act like you know everybody should be you know Marcus Aurillas. But I mean, we gotta have a standard. If you can't make it, then go find something else to do. Uh leaders need to be leading by example, and that means they need to be what they tell the people they should be on ethic and all that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, I'm I'm lucky to to live in a in a um a political situation where we are we are we are very multi-party, right? There are parties like federally in in Canada, there are parties that are across the spectrum, right? And there are parties that are very location specific, right? Like there's um uh the there's uh Quebec and stuff like that. They have they have they have a party that's very specific to them and whatnot. But you know, one thing I would say about being in a system like that is that it gives people the ability to choose within the spectrum, right, what better matches with them. I find what happens a lot in this discussion is that you know, people, people might not like the person, but they like the party, but it's then you sort of ask them why they like the party, and it's like, well, we're Republicans, and they kind of or we're Democrats, and you go, it what does that mean? As a Canadian, I struggled with that because I went to an American international school for high school, and they would so and people would say that. And I'd be like, oh, well, we don't I don't think we classify ourselves like that, right? And what I'm getting at is is like there's this weird us versus them thing where you're not picking your party, you're not picking your elected officials based on just like data sometimes. It feels like it's just because that's that's what your family does or that's what your community does. And you kind of go, yeah, and you kind of just go, well, that's not I don't think that's that's right at all. Like Socrates or Marcus or anybody like that within the stoic world would always want you to think rationally about this, looking at every topic, every topic, like like this is what we think, so this is what you think.
SPEAKER_01Like, talk about that not being wisdom. That's just like shut up and color, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, yeah. And you get people who are like, I you know, you I remember seeing some tweets about this or whatever, or some meme or something like that, where people are like, I never thought I would vote this way in my whole life, right? And I'm 65 and I'm now switching and voting that way. And you kind of go like, so what were you doing before? Like, did you were you okay with everything before? Like, were you okay with everything before? I think people have to ask themselves that. I think unfortunately, though, there is some fatigue within society where people are like, I just just I need you guys to fix it. I feel like they kind of like it's like but they don't they don't fix it. No, they don't fix it.
SPEAKER_01They campaign on it not being fixed. Like if you look at the immigration issue in the United States, it's almost like both sides want to keep it kind of screwed up because both sides use it to stay elected and to raise money.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01It's just one example, right? Whereas if you were hired to do a job and you haven't passed an immigration bill in 15 years, I just made that up. I don't know how long. Okay. You get the point. It's like you're not doing your job. So I don't care if you have an opinion about immigration if you can't bring it together to actually do something. You see what I mean? Yeah, it's it is a posture, not a political position. You posture so you can raise money based on the outrage of whatever thought side. You see what I mean? Like you could be far on the left and think everybody should be allowed to come to the United States for some reason. Yeah, but that's where the world does that. Or you could be far on the right and think that only people who look exactly like you should be able to come to the United States.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And and ignore the fact that most of our innovative most innovative people, unfortunately, or fortunately, are immigrants.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Right? Or first generation. Like if you look at all the like major innovations, yeah, yeah. But that that that's me getting into a political position. But the point being is you need good people, right? Whether you're left or right, being the people that come in that actually want to get the job done.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01If they don't, get out. Term limits, go find another job.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. No, the term limits thing is an interesting one, right? Because we have we have an appointed um uh member uh group in our legislative assembly here, the Senate. And there's been interesting talks about that. Now, the Senate is it the Senate doesn't operate in the same way here. The House of Commons is really our primary legislative body, but you know, term limits are an are an interesting one that I hear coming up all the time. And I'm kind of I mean, the thing is I'm kind of for that, right? Uh uh or sorry, I'm not kind of for that. I am for term limits, but not not because I'm angry about anything, but just because it makes sense, right? Like you you we have to remember that society a hundred years ago was changing generationally every 50 years, and now society seems to be changing every 10 years. Like you're you you will have someone be out of their element, right? And I think you know, you have to start looking at this where you go, oh, that's something where we should probably you know revisit that. But you know, what I would say to my fellow Canadians though is for sure, like you have to look at a wide array of issues. Like the National Broadcasting Corporation here in Canada, which is the CBC, they do, for example, for every major election cycle, they'll do a where do you fit on the spectrum thing? And it's very objective, but they will tell you, and I can tell you there have been times where I've been more on the way deep left side, and there have been times where I'm actually on the right side of the spectrum. It depends on the electorate electorate year, right? But I think people have to continually kind of look at that and say, is this really what I want to look at? You know, is this really the person I want ri you know, reflecting me? Is this what I want to see reflected in the people who are leading us forward? Because the interesting thing about, and these really aren't democracies, let's be honest. And because we don't all vote on every issue all the time, right? It's democratic, but it is, you know, it's either a republic or in my case it's a constitutional monarchy, right?
SPEAKER_01But you know, representative democracy because we can represent, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And you're in that circumstance where you have to ask yourself, like, what do I want to see, as opposed to this is how I want this is how I want it to look.
SPEAKER_01Specifically about policy issues, and I guess I was too, but my point is um we need anybody who's doing policy to have a firm ethical foundation. Absolutely, whether you're Bernie Sanders or um John McCain, just to use I think Bernie Sanders, I mean I don't agree with him, but I think he's ethical, um for example. And I think John McCain, although he's passed, is obviously uh on the right. I'm just using that, but but the point being is it's not about their positions, it's about their character. Like we need people of character, regardless of what political position they hold, to be in office. And that means you gotta start somewhere because they're not gonna they're not gonna teach them a course before they go to you know to Congress or in their parliament. You gotta school.
SPEAKER_00But I think there's a connection there though, right? Like there's a connection, like, like if you're if you're picking people that are that are reflecting a good ethical base, then some of these things that we're all kind of angry about right now are not gonna happen, right? So it's still and and the policies that they're doing are going to reflect that, right? Like you can be, I actually I don't call myself a socialist all the time. I actually more align as a social capitalist. I believe in business. I'm I'm a Keynesian, if you would think about it, where I like a mix of government and private sector. But the thing is, when I elect when I vote for somebody, I want to see I I want their ethics to be good, but I want that also to be reflected with good policies that come out of those ethics. So I'll I think my thing is I think they're connected. Like you're not gonna have someone who's morally corrupt, you know, writing policies that give tax breaks to the bottom 30% and initiate a brand new, you know, um amnesty program on set post-secondary education loans, right? Like, like it's just those things are almost anathema to each other. So I think it's kind of both. You have you need to you, you know, selecting someone based on their character, on their ethics is absolutely important. And that should show in what their policy decisions are, is all I that's what I would say. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01So what I'm so what I'm advocating for is whether you're on the left or the right or center or whatever, yeah, that you hold whoever you're gonna vote for that aligns with your policies to a high standard for ethical character. So you can be conservative or liberal and still be an ethical person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But what we're doing now, and I could go through examples here that are really make it obvious, is we're picking people who have serious ethical issues just because they agree with your policy positions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And we're overlooking the character flaws that exist on people that are both on the far. We've got people who were literally impeached for uh unethical stuff that are now running for Senate and were nominated. We have people who had a Schwa sticker basically on their chest and said, Oh, yeah, well, okay, whatever. Uh, or said things like, um, you know, ladies are responsible for their own sexual assault. Uh, and and they go, Oh, well, he agrees with me, so I'll overlook that, even though they'd be completely outraged if he if that person was on the other side of the political spectrum. You see what I mean? Like if you're cool with it because, or you overlook it because he agrees with you politically, you're accepting very flawed people running the government. That's what I'm saying. So it doesn't have to do with the policy, it has to do with the character. You could you, of course, are going to vote for people who agree with your policy, so am I. But you should start with the standard that the person is ethical, because we're not. We have dramatically unethical people just being voted into office simply because people believe with their political positions. And that's the failing. They're all using it to gain their money for their own benefit. Right. All not everybody in Congress, right? I don't want to sound like I'm raging against the machine here, but it's it is an issue that I think is become has hit a point where we don't have to agree on issues necessarily. I mean it's a democracy, so right. So we don't have to, literally. But we should all agree that the people making those decisions and representing us represent ethical people. And that's not what the case is. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't like you can be an ethical person and believe in lower taxes and smaller government, or an ethical person and believe in larger government and more taxes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And I think that what will what will happen, what I think the future of that will start to shape the fact where the policies will reflect that, but there'll be ethical policies that do that, right? And I think that's that's what I would like to see more coming up. But you're right, initially selecting someone based on whether or not they align with what you want is not the same thing as picking the right person. I would agree with that.
SPEAKER_01What you're calling ethical policies are what you believe in. Yeah. But I'm saying what I'm saying is we can disagree on policy and they both can be acting ethical. But we don't have if we don't have the underlying ethical people doing it, yeah. Right. I mean, there was a time when you know the famous, you know, Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill, right? So it was uh leader of the Republican Party and the leader of the he was a speaker of the house, and they would go out and get a beer together. I don't do that anymore. Like if if people did that on at least in our system, they'd be run out of office as if they were like cavorting with the enemy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's it's and then both of them under our system have the opportunity to be really corrupt.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and that's what I'm saying. We have to if we can't agree on policy, and that's fine. That's that's that's just what uh democracies are. Uh and then you just uh you know have it out, uh philosophically at least, and you vote, and then it happens. But if we don't have that basic core line character, which you gotta you gotta teach. You gotta teach. Um you know, and if we're gonna teach I mean, we're obviously failing on the core like reading, writing, and arithmetic. Uh we need to get back to that uh and innovation, but we need to also teach that character, and that needs to be like it needs to be like an uh a school um that advances every year where kids actually um it it resets what they think, you know. We we both live in a capitalist society. Uh obviously success in business is viewed as you know a positive, which is fine. That's great. I don't have any problem at all. Um but you also need the ethics there too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, how you do that is the key thing there, I think, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Like I don't, you know, I I I want to see people succeed in that way by also elevating others around them. Making uh making a lot of money by squashing people down. That's that to me is unethical and it's not right. And I, you know, that doesn't fall within my value system. And I don't and I think people have to ask themselves again that like, does this person ref reflect the ethics and values of me and what I think should be in a leader like this? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So leaders again are across the board, it's not just politics. Politics is yeah, yeah, exactly. But I do I do have a quote. Well, actually, let me tell you a story because when I was talking about how you know to be great, you gotta be good. So I was reading this story the other day. Um, this married couple that just got married. Um, it was in Virginia, I think. Uh, and they were taking a road to try to get to where they were gonna go to their honeymoon, right? It's a long time ago. Yeah, and uh the the new wife was like, Why don't we just take the road we know and go down the ones that paved? And the husband's like, Oh, take too long, and you can see where this is going. Went down a dirt road and it was ran in and slid off the road. And now couples are already arguing, first marital argument, just got married, probably dragging the can, you know, that says just married behind them. Yeah, uh, and this farmer came up and said, You know, hey, I see you guys got some problems. He's wearing overalls, and um, you know, and so they caught kind of quieted down because you know, obviously they're embarrassed our argument in front of this man. Yeah, and the man goes gets his tractor, he pulls the car out, and so and he's looking at the they could just drive off and he's like telling them, like, you need you need to go get the car check, you managed it up pretty good. So you you get out of here, you take a left, take a right, and there's a garage, and the guy's name is Fred. Tell Fred uh, you know, you need to talk to him about checking out your car. And they're still kind of arguing. So he says, actually, why don't you guys just come up to the house and have dinner with me and the missus? Or had lunch with me and the missus.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01So they do. And here's a couple who's been married 40 years, right? 50 years, and there's a couple just got married, you know, five hours ago, right? And so they have this long conversation about like life, right? Um, ups and downs, like any life, not just marriages, but you have your high points, your low points, and it's part of it is just like choosing each other every time, right? So it's just it's this is a story about marriage in a way, right? Which we're gonna do a whole episode on. But anyway, so they they they learn what they learn. They have their little sandwiches, and then they go back to the car and they give them sandwiches and cookies to go, and then they go get to Fred. And Fred goes, Oh, where did you get an accident? He said, Yeah, well, we got an accident there's a nice old couple had us for lunch. He said, Well, where exactly? And he said, Well, right at this road. And he goes, We know who that nice old couple was, you know.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Think about that. Do you think that would happen today? Do you think they would somebody in that? And he was a former, right? So he'd already retired and went to a former. Yeah, yeah. I probably wouldn't because everybody'd recognize him, right? But sure. At least this couple was younger and he'd been out of office for plenty of time. But yeah. The point being is like you gotta be to be remembered as a great leader. Those stories like that will be what people really clump on to. Yes, they'll remember he won D-Day. And if you haven't seen the movie Pressure, it came out yesterday. Excellent.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It would start a little shaky for me because it was not portraying in the way I thought he should be, but it ends strong, dude. Like it's good. Um but like, yes, Eisenhower, he'll be remembered for winning D-Day and liberating Nazi Europe, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_01But he'll also be remembered from the guy who took time out of his day to help a young couple in life, right? Not asking for anything. Certainly wouldn't think this story would be repeated in a podcast, you know, 40 years later or whatever it is. Um that's the kind of people we need, you know what I mean? Yeah. And one more point on him that I think really exemplifies what a stoic leader is. If you're not familiar with it, they they depict it in the movie. Eisenhower wrote two letters the eve before D-Day. Yes. One was for victory, and he gave 100% of the uh the reason for that victory to the soldiers and sailors and airmen marines that fought from multiple countries, including yours, obviously Great Britain, to liberate Europe. 100% of the credit goes to them. Failure. 100% of the failure, he accepted.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01He accepted. He wrote the letter already before it even happened. And he already gave it away. And if I said we win, or this is successful, this is what you use, this is not successful, this is what he did, and he tendered his resignation. Right. That's a leader. We don't see that anymore. We don't see that at all. We 100% would see that leader blame it on somebody else if it failed.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm our leader of the day is uh Dwight D. Eisenhower.
SPEAKER_00I totally agree. Yes, and I have I have heard the story of the DD Letters. Also, I'll be very Canadian and say Brendan Fraser's Canadian who played Eisenhower in that movie, right? It's very Canadian to go, oh, that guy's Canadian.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't like you, I don't blame you.
SPEAKER_00I know. It's rare, right? It's rare. But I appreciate that. I I you know I recently met my new team, right? I'm a new director, and I recently met my new team, and I told them at some point, I said, look, here's how this is gonna go. When everything's going well, it's you guys. When everything is if if anything ever doesn't go well, it's on me, right? And that's how you have to take it.
SPEAKER_01That's one of the main principles of stoic leadership, right there.
SPEAKER_00Yes, it is. Right there. Well, let's close with that thought. Thank you for that uh story, Mick. That's a that's a great story about um you know that sort of quiet, quiet leadership and you know, the quiet personality that Ike had. But let's leave it there and move on. But uh thank you everybody for listening. We'd love to hear from you. Info at pub and porch.com. Leave a comment, you know, like, subscribe, whatever you uh would like to do for us. But uh until next time, cheers, Mick. Slotcha.
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