Welcome to Pub Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, with my co-host Mick Mulroy here. Today we uh we're going to start uh the episode talking about um one of the quote unquote big three when it comes to uh the stoics, um, which is Epictetus. Um I think for us, right, we don't we traditionally try to do a lot of uh current events in our podcast, but it is important for us to speak to some of the the originals on this, the OGs, if uh I was speaking like a millennial, um, because they they do form the foundation of what all of us tend to read about. So so um, yeah, um I'm gonna quickly mention at the beginning that there are some really good resources that I was pulling from while prepping for this episode. There's Epictetus Discourses and Selected Writings from the Penguin Classics. I recommend this book because it has a great introduction to his life as well as his right writings, even though he never really wrote anything himself. And also Ryan Holliday's Lives of the Stoics, which I highly recommend because there's a whole section on Epictetus that he writes about. But Mick, why don't you uh kick us off today with your uh your first thoughts on Epictetus? Sure, Adam.
SPEAKER_01So to start with links, because I think I would like to do a lot of the links, how history is tied together. Um, you know, Musinius Rufus being the Roman Socrates. Um if you look at uh the reference, obviously Socrates being what we call the godfather of Stoicism, yeah. Right, then Plato. Plato, of course, one of the students of Plato's academy, was Zeno. But Plato's main student, as we all know, was Aristotle, and then Aristotle's main student student was Alexander the Great. So if you take the kind of link analogy forward, so you got Husanius Rufus being the Roman Socrates. Epictetus is, I think, in a way is like the Plato. Uh, and then there's um Lucidius, who was the uh main stoic teacher of uh that he taught that was the main stoic teacher of Marcus Aurelius. So there's kind of a similarity, right? With Oh, uh Junius Rusticus? Rusticus, Rusticus, yeah, sorry. Uh Quintus Junius Rusticus, right? All right. It's been a while since I've had uh I would I think we should do um lots of times when I'm thinking of names, I'm actually thinking from my youth.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so sometimes I don't, and sometimes I don't, I've only read it. So if I ever get uh pronunciations wrong, obviously you correct me. But if the audience uh uh sees something pronounced incorrectly, please let us know. Uh but anyway, so there's kind of a an interesting link, you know, with um the foundational person, Socrates, uh Rufus, and then as it progresses up to almost a version of the philosopher king, right? Whether it's Alexander the Great or obviously Marcus Aurelius. Right. Uh and then there's some other links in history, particularly when it comes to Epictetus, that I think, and we talked about this before we started, that we like to introduce. Um, but we'll get I'll get to that at the end of this. But to start with Epictetus, I mean, the first part of his life is a little foggy, uh, but he was born what, Anatolia, uh now modern day Turkey, middle of uh century.
SPEAKER_00At the time they would have called it Thrace more than anything. It was wet, it was uh southern, or I think it was eastern Thrace, actually, in the western part of Turkey. The Ryan's book highlights it as Hieropolis. Hieropolis. But even then, I think he was born in a suburb, uh something like that.
SPEAKER_01Probably to a slave woman. That's the consensus among historians, if I'm correct. Yeah. Um, he he was, and of course, his name is unknown. It simply means one who's been purchased or acquired one, Epictetus. Um, so he's a slave. He was born a slave, his mother was a slave, he was born a slave. Uh in pretty brutal times uh to be a slave, and then sold to one of Nero's senior uh advisors in Rome, of course. Uh so he moved he he was trafficked in the modern sense of the term to uh Rome. Um somewhere in there, his uh his new owner uh lay uh basically likely um tortured and broke his legs or his leg at least. It's damaged that lasted a long forever. He was lame. I don't know if that was common. It'd be interesting to hear talk to a historian. Like if a slave was used for non-labor purposes, did they uh maim them? Is that something they did just so they wrong away? I don't know. Um but there's a famous uh part of the story for uh Epictetus, in which he was literally torturing them. And Epictetus says, if you keep doing that, you're gonna break my legs. And then of course the guy keeps doing it and breaks his legs. But Epictetus doesn't call out, doesn't even really get upset. It's almost a standard that's almost impossible to replicate. But that's why so many people who have been in dire situations, and we'll get into that, like Stockdale, for example, or Mandela, have relied on uh Epictetus to get them through their captivity. But that story, I think, really says a lot about uh how much of a stoic, and he was a student of Musanius Rufus, like we already talked about at that time, he had not only become, but really epitomized. He epitomized what we consider to be the the core of a stoic. He had the ability to maintain his composure even in the worst of situations, including being tortured for life.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, um, you know, to add to that, right, like he's growing up at a time when when slavery is normalized. And I think, you know, on one side, when you look at it with a f with like a modern lens, you know, it's easy for us to see how terrible it is. And it was terrible at the time, too, right? I I am not gonna make excuses for slavery in the uh in the classical period. It was still the trafficking and use of people as labor without paying them and holding them against their will. Um, but it was a different time. I mean, Epictetus interesting, he grows up in a time where there's a rule where you can't become free until you're at least 30 years old. And so he gets he's he's literal like it doesn't matter if he works hard and gets paid and things like that. He can't buy his own freedom. But he's coming out of this time period where he spent his whole life up until 30 knowing nothing else but slavery.
SPEAKER_01But in a unique situation, because he was with the wealthiest people on earth. Yeah. What an interesting to be a slave in the palace of Nero.
SPEAKER_00Think about that. I know, which is so odd in its own way. Because, but I think, you know, in some ways, and again, it doesn't rationalize slavery. What it does do is it explains sort of the oddity in the in the interesting parts of his life, is that he ends up learning philosophy. He ends up, I mean, it seems like he's sort of a clerk. I I don't get the sense that he's sort of manual labor. I get the sense that he's sort of clerking, or we might think of him as more like a valid or a butler at times, considering I don't know though. I that's really hard for us to tell. But he's getting this opportunity to learn at a time when, you know, it's very elite to be able to read and speak Greek and study this kind of topic. He must have been really lucky in a way, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, I mean, it I've never seen a description where he was selected because he was smart. Obviously, we know he was very smart.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01How does one go from Turkey to Rome? So that would be like that'd be like the backwater of the Roman Empire, right? Yeah, obviously far away, and then to be bought by an advisor to the emperor. I know, I know the story. It seems like there'd be more to it, like there had to be like exceptionally smart or something, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And the, you know, the challenge we have with that, right, is just the lack of information we have about him, um, in many ways, right? Um we we learn about his early life, and then there's this middle period that kind of isn't there. Um, likely where he's just a normal kind of slave in a household, right? And then he ends up he ends up becoming this thing. The interesting thing I think is really important to point out with with Epictetus, though, is he becomes free and he has a choice, right? As a freeman, he can do kind of do anything, right? In a way, or he not anything, but he can he has a lot of options to him. You know, he could go become a laborer, he could try his hand at something else, right? But he makes a choice in the time that to become a for a professional philosopher, essentially, which which is is, I think today I would consider the equivalent to be like to become an academic, right? In the sense of like to study and lecture and teach.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00And I find it so interesting because out of the big three that we always talk about, right? Marcus and Seneca and Epictetus, he's the only one who doesn't have another job, right? He's he's strictly an academic sort of philosopher. And Nero, you know, Nero being counseled by Seneca and Seneca being a stoic, that's not the only thing Seneca's counsel Seneca's counseling him on. He's counseling him on lots of things. Because Seneca has he has his own business, right? And Marcus being an emperor and uh military leader and whatnot, you know, he's doing stoicism alongside that sort of part of his life. So Epictetus, you know, when I always look at it as a spectrum of people, right? Mark Marcus is like the everyman in many ways, right? And Seneca is sort of in the middle because he Seneca, at least in the way that his writings are written, and then Epictetus is sort of the, he's the really. I remember somebody telling me once, they were like, he's the hard ass. He's the one, he's the one who's really strict about how to be, right? And uh, in some ways, and we were talking about links, there's an interesting tie to this because a big fan of of uh uh uh for us on the podcast is Masonius Rufus, and Masonius teaches Epictetus. In fact, calls him a fool at some times, is the story that we hear. Um, which is you'd think this incredibly you know intelligent academic philosopher being called a fool by at the time one of the most well-known stoics in the entire empire. Um that's a that's an it's such an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_01I mean fool in a sense, like it's a famous quote by Epictetus that you basically to learn anything, you have to be willing to be considered a fool, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. And he's probably pulling from his own experience to say, hey, you know what? I don't know, I don't know everything. I have to I have to open my eyes and ears and learn from others, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I always viewed like Xeno kind of setting the standard for what society should be, Epictetus in and and Mausanius Rufus kind of telling you how you should be as an individual, and then Aurelius basically saying how you should be as a leader.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01That's the way I've always viewed it. Um yeah, and you know, the other part about like so if you were a if you were a sl, you obviously was a slave, he probably would have met Seneca, I suppose. And but to be amongst all this, you know, one of the other famous quotes, and I always like to give quotes because it really goes to who they were. Yeah. But he said, wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants. And that that's kind of reiterated throughout Stoicism. But I think he probably his position would have exemplified that the most, right? So he was born a slave, was a slave, and then goes to the richest place on the planet, potentially the richest place that will ever be on the planet, right? The Roman Empire. Um and can see how I think one of his other quotes is I can't remember it exactly, but how basically great opulence creates great anxiety, right? That that people with a lot of stuff aren't necessarily happy. And he was without any stuff, right? Uh, and found the happiness, right? You gotta make your own happiness, man. That's that's kind of the core of Epictetus. You gotta find it in yourself and not rely on other things, and other things would include material wealth, right? But that I think he saw it in a way, it's also super impressive that Aurelius would would see it even though it was available to him. But from Epictetus's position, he can see as an outsider, yeah, you know, how these people who have more money than 99% of people on the planet still seem to be very unhappy. You know, why he brings in their 14th class of wine or what have you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, and you know, I think I I I think the one thing that Ipictetus seems to do really well is pull from his own life. He doesn't, he doesn't do he's it's a very humble way to do it where he doesn't ever say, I learned this because I saw it somewhere. But, you know, when you know the history of his servitude, I'll call it or well, really slavery, but the servitude that he that he did as a slave, he is seeing this extreme of the world, right? And being someone who is not only not included in that, he's disbarred from that as a slave. And so this juxtaposition of two things that are so wildly opposite each other, I think you know, it shows up in his writings, talking about the opulence, talking about those things because he's seeing that in front of him. It always feels to me when I read him that there's a lesson there that he's kind of telling you about himself. I probably see that more because I know more about like I know a little bit more about him as a person. Having read books like Ryan's and the Penguin Classics book, but ultimately, you know, it does always feel like there's a little bit of you know a reality of this is this is this is what I saw, right? When I was when I was when I was well, up to 30, or I can't remember when he gets freed. It's hard to I I don't think we know when that happens, but uh you know that for the first 30 years of his life he's in servitude like that or slavery.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, and obviously it was his student, what Arian that wrote down his lectures, discourses, and Tyridian.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um there's another, I think, and this is what a lot of people bring up when they talk about uh Epictetus, but the lamp, right? He was really proud and you know of his lamp, and it goes to this whole idea of material wealth. And I the one thing I'd say is the one thing about stoicism that if you it's kind of it's a challenge. Like in many ways a challenge in the sense that if you really stick to the principles, uh, and a lot of them come from Epictetus, like you know, don't be petty. If somebody talks smack about you, just ignore it. Right? Never talk smack about other people, ever. I mean, think about this in I mean, I'm not talking to you specifically, but people in general. Like, yeah, it's a it's a hard thing to like hold yourself on a high, the highest pedestal, but not everybody else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, really take away the value of material possessions. I'm not saying you can't, I'm I'm fine with people who go out and you know, uh, you know, do really well in life. It's you know, you're responsibility to yourself, your family, and your society. But to not put value in it, like you to really convince yourself, like it doesn't matter that I buy all my clothes from Costco or I don't even know the designer brands, but you get my point. Like where you really can't even uh uh but you know what I mean. Like people really put a value in themselves, even though they might not say it by what they own, right? The kind of car they drive and all that stuff. If you really follow stoicism, it does two things. It's a challenge because there's a lot of things that people just have a hard time doing. Um but it's also liberating. Because if it becomes a real thing for you, where you really don't care what other people think as long as you know you're a good person, you really don't care, you know, yeah, the kind of car you drive or whatever. Um it is liberating. Like you get somewhere with stoicism, I think, as a person. You get on the other end, you get to a place where you're not only a better person, but if everybody around you was like that, then you'd be focusing on more important things. Yeah. You know what I mean? But epictetus, uh my point of going on that tangent is epictetus is kind of like the epitome. I don't know, is that what that word comes from? Yeah. The epitome of of uh what stoicism at its core is. Now, Roos Rufus has all the rules of Rufus, you know, but some of his are awesome, awesome, like literally telling you cut your hair, trim your beard, like PT every day. That's great. And I follow, I try to follow because you'll be a better person for doing that. But Epictetus is like the example of like, like you said, he's hardcore, man. He's he's like, yeah, he's like the uh warrior monk kind of when it comes to stoicism.
SPEAKER_00For sure, yeah. And you know, I mean, it's funny though, because he he clearly talks about like so many times a lot, like in his right, in and and we should remember that it's they're not actually his writings, they're somebody else's writing his lectures down, right? But he does there's a there's a recurring theme of like, you know, if you it you sort of get this theme of like if you falter, you know, do this, and it's okay, right? Like he he's obviously struggled with it in his own life to try and live up to this really strong, like epitomized view, right? And and you do get that feeling coming back sometimes where he talks about it like, you know, if you make a mistake, like make it right, is kind of the way that I I read that sometimes. I may be reading a lot into it, but I mean that's the way it feels. So, but I think you know, that I think is just such an interesting part of it. Because then you have like you have you have Seneca, who's sort of like, well, you know, try your best, but um, you know, and then you have Peter.
SPEAKER_01This is a great exemplary of of stoicism, like epic.
SPEAKER_00Who's Seneca?
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I struggle, I struggle with Seneca. Like like his letters are great, but then when you you know the the challenge with Seneca is knowing more about him, which is so odd to say, but it's you know, it's not it's it's kind of one of those never meet your heroes, like he's definitely saying stuff that he's not doing, right? Where you're kind of like, hmm, really, that's what you went with, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01So he is definitely yeah, yeah, practice what I preach, not what I practice. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And that's a that can be a challenge sometimes, right? Epictetus is the one where it's like it's like try try to be him as much as you can. It's a it's a but it is a challenge, as you've said. I think that's a great way to put him because he's he's so good, but he's also like, you know, I don't think it's unattainable. It's just that thing of like, you know, it's gonna take some actual effort. Reading him as and doing what he says is uh not always easy. Yes. I want to directly finish the lamp thing, though. Yeah, go talk to the lamp thing.
SPEAKER_01So the the whole the story about the lamp is he had this, it was one of the possessions he really liked. Yeah. The guy who doesn't really have possessions, and then it was stolen. And instead of you know being all bummed up about it, he said, Well, this time I'm gonna buy like a cheapo lamp. So the robber comes back, he'll be disappointed because he's gonna get you know the cheap lamp. And you know, it's a very commonly used story from his, but it really does show you that's what you should have in your mind about possessions. Yeah, it's not you're not based on what you own, you're based on what you do. Right. Um, and it's a perfect example of Epictetus' view of it. Now he was and at the end of his life, I mean, you already referenced it, right? So he uh gets freed, he goes to uh Nicopolis, which uh I'm going to spend some time with next time I go to the Stoic Conference, by the way.
SPEAKER_00I think it's true.
SPEAKER_01uh this summer. Um he's famous. Like he might be making a buttload of money by then. I don't know. I mean he even has you know Roman Adrian coming to visit him.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We know he's lecturing. We know he's lecturing, but but I also don't know if that's I don't know how that works. Is like he taking donations? Is it like he's doing it on like is he doing it Speaker's Corner in Hyde Park type of thing where it's like you put a hat down and you start talking or is it more of a formal thing? I think it's more formal than that, but yeah you're right I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I only know from the story that Emperor Hadrian went to see him. So that indicates to me that he was super well known. And if he wasn't he probably was after that you know what I mean like that that probably in uh I would imagine he didn't have any wants after that. His his personality probably lived humbly anyway but I don't think I think he went from a slave to you know at least his fame was pretty high.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Although I'm sure you definitely care that well we know from the fame like we know exposure to Hadrian right Antoninus Pius obviously living at the same time period as Hadrian and and Marcus there's this crossover event that kind of starts. And then we know although we we don't have them today we know that copies of Epictetus writings that we don't we no longer have are referenced in Marcus's own writings right so he's got this like there's a whole line of of emperors Hadrian Antoninus Pius and then Marcus Aurelius who who are pulling from this this guy who ultimately like is sort of this this big success story in this in a s in a sense um I you know I hate calling it that because it feels like I'm calling it like a Cinderella story you know coming from nothing but at the same time you know he's he's earning his he's earning his way through his lectures it seems like right and that's something that I think is very is very important to point out that people are coming to him. He's not he he's interestingly he seems very uninterested in politics like he leaves Rome he goes somewhere else but he's still being referenced by all these people who are trying their best to do the right things right so do we think Justicus went to Nicopolis that's an interesting question. I would I would be unsurprised if he did but the question is is how did Marcus get Epictetus writings the writings that we no longer have I would imagine those came from Rusticus. In fact I think there's a letter between them where it's either a letter between Rusticus and and Marcus or it's a letter between Gala and Marcus where they're lending copies of Epictetus to each other. So that's very vague I have to I have to I'll have to search that out but uh but and and confirm that but I I have heard that story more in more than one place. I think Donald and I talked about that one time a few years ago.
SPEAKER_01That'd be interesting to know if Russ I mean it makes sense right so if Rusticus was a student of Epictetus then his school was I guess it could happen in Rome too but it'd be interesting to know interesting to know other famous uh folks and we put them on our list to talk about uh links like we started the podcast with yeah so Epictetus has obviously uh been read by many people throughout history but one of the persons that I bumped into that we're gonna do a podcast on is Thomas Wentworth Higginson.
SPEAKER_00So Thomas Wentworth Higginson you might not know I didn't um he was an abolitionist in the United States uh pre-Civil War who went on he was actually in the Secret Six uh we'll get to into all this we're just we're just kind of like given an intro so we can build a suspense the secret six fascinating group uh it's John Brown Harper's Ferry tried to um basically start an insurrection to end slavery oh he's the only one that stayed in the United States the others fled to Canada by the way or we killed um he then becomes an infantry officer in the Massachusetts 51st then becomes a regimental colonel for the uh 1st South Carolina they call it the Colored Regiment so black African American regiment uh writes a whole book on what it was like to be uh so you if there's if you've ever seen the movie Glory with Denzel Washington and Matthew Broadway yeah uh right um but he is a full on stoic like he reads stoicism he's one of his uh translations of Epictetus's and Ciridian um was the most bright read yeah and uh uh the other link and we'll have a podcast on him when a young naval uh fighter pilot was walking through the halls of Stanford's philosophy department he was literally handed a copy of uh Higginson's translated Etcheridia and that Pider pilot was a stockdale so there's a l there's links uh many links uh to uh Abictetus Theodore Roosevelt carried a copy of his uh discourses carried a copy when he went down um the Amazon if you ever read the story about uh that is an incredible story this was after he was president him and his son took a trip down uh uh the Amazon um Nelson Mandela another person we're gonna do uh read copies of Epictetus's works yeah in uh Robin's Island that was a prison he was in so there's a lot of links to Epictetus that we're gonna cover in the future Bob yeah there are a teaser if you will yeah definite now one thing I think we should close on with that you're referencing some really good um elements from Epictetus writings um you know I'm sure you've gotten this I mean when I go or meet people um about the podcast or in podcasts from the past I get asked a lot of times like who to start with and where to start. And you've already referenced one that I I do want to make sure we highlight to people right which is the end Caridian the handbook um for people new like if this is your first episode or if this is your if you're coming to stoicism first because of this these episodes right um there are great gateways into the philosophy right especially modern writers that are great at at helping people understand this really old thing like Donald Robertson and Massimo Piliucci and Ryan Holiday who are all you know friends of the podcast but um sometimes it's also well you have to go back to the originals because that's where it really grows from and for Epictitas I do recommend to people the handbook The In Caridian it's pretty short it's broken into little chapters and each chapter is pretty self-contained and I do I do recommend that to people because I get that question a lot because they're like well where do I start because if you look at if you if you look at like the penguin classics book right it's it's it's 250 pages right which is I'm not saying don't read that but what I'm saying is if you figure out somewhere to start the Encoridian's a good place. It's a bit like like it seems like a lot of them had kind of have handbook type stuff right Rufus has his rules Epictetus has his NCRIDIan and I think you know just as a general pointer for a lot of people a great way to get into Epictetus is with the En Caridian. Again it's it's it's somebody writing down his rules but um it is still definitely applicable today. And yeah so we'd you know it's probably a good spot for us to prepare to to wrap up for today unless you have any closing thoughts for us Mick.
SPEAKER_01No I think you nailed it that's a good way to end it.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Well we're going to uh close here then but make sure to tell everybody if this is your first time coming to Epictetus we'd love to hear from you and your first thoughts from him info at pubandporch.com or leave us a comment on the video or you know uh reach out to us some other way through social media or or email we'd love to hear from you because Epictetus is one of those he's the big one of the big three so we'd love to hear from you on that but uh we'll close today and uh say we'll see you on the next one. Cheers Mick.
SPEAKER_01Slot chat thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify Apple or whichever platform you prefer and if you'd like to help out with the podcast you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode you have a suggestion for future episodes or you have an essay on an important topic for Stoicism send it to us and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Today's music was provided by Ben Sound dot com. Until next time Pump Porch out