Welcome to Pub Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life. Hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, and I'm here with my co-host Mick Mulroy. Today we were going to talk about Musonius Rufus and his rules about raising kids, I think is sort of the general way that Mick and I have been describing it to each other. So Musonius Rufus, teacher of Epictetus, uh famous uh philosopher in the Roman era, um, you know, around at the time of Nero, banned from Rome, like thrown out of Rome a few times. We've spoken about him on the podcast before, and he has rules for life, and he has some lectures, and he is one of those, he is one of those core um stoic philosophers that is just parallel to the big three that we always talk about, right? Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus, and Seneca. Um, so but he uh he's always has these practical handbooks that we work with. And so Mick Mick raised the idea of doing an episode on Eutonius rules for raising kids. And uh I thought it was a great episode, especially uh, I mean, Father's Day is coming up, Mother's Day has already happened, so uh it's a good time to talk about this kind of topic. So, Mick, why don't you uh kick us off?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, Adam. So the the first, we're gonna have this broken down into two episodes. First episode will be kind of the tried and true um uh Rufus's rules for raising children, which I think are amazingly prescient today as well. And then the next episode will be uh what would Rufus uh say about you know a lot of the modern issues that kids and parents are going through, like you know, the advancement of artificial intelligence to social media, toxicity, you know, the uh the the mingled project issues, if you're tracking that, which is kind of a lot of kids becoming isolated and then they become isolated adults, of course. So uh we'll hit that in a second episode. But I think uh these this is uh a list that I compiled from uh the works of Rufus that I think are really important in teaching kids today as a stoic, as a stoic family, put it that way. Because they are stoic families.
SPEAKER_00Um totally. Is there a reference for the uh for the uh book you were using that we can give you?
SPEAKER_02It's a compilation of uh you know obviously his works as they were written down. So I don't have I do have some of the books, but it wasn't uh I don't have the well we can put it in the show notes for everybody.
SPEAKER_00That's okay. All right.
SPEAKER_02All right. The first one, as you would expect, as every stoic is supposed to, uh, is you teach virtue before everything else. So character is more important if this we're supposed to teach, then wealth, then status, then appearance or reputation. Right? Um it's easier said than done. Uh kids get a lot of pressure, I think, to have the I mean, we all remember there's versions of this probably going back to Rufus' time where kids felt like they had to have a certain type of clothes or shoes or um to to you know fit in uh they're very wealth conscious parents and what kind of cars they drive and all this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, do you remember when Air Jordans came out in the 90s? That was like that was a big deal.
SPEAKER_02Totally, man. Yeah. Um and my parents are somewhat hippies, so they would they would not get a lot of the brand name stuff. Because when I was a kid, you know, it seemed like everything was fake food back then. I don't know why it became a thing. If you remember, like artificial colors and flavors were in everything, and everything you it was before your time, but it was a time where like if you weren't buying that, you weren't cool, even though it was like super bad for you, and probably why we have an OPC in that day. You know what I mean? Well, my parents were already they were already um I hippies is is kind of a slang, I guess, but they were uh you know, they didn't have any artificial colors and flavors, everything was organic before people used the term organic, all that stuff, right? So it was it was odd. People come over the house and it's like, where's your lucky charms, right? If you remember that kind of cereal, or your fruit loops where everything was just like, yeah, um, but you know, I would say, and I I mean I think parents really do, regardless of their philosophical background or religious background, they want their kids to be good, right? I mean, even if they're not. I mean, you you know innately that your job as a parent is to raise good kids.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02I I think I I think every I don't think you have to have a lecture about that. But I think the way Stoicism would be more um systematic is you teach them courage, you teach them wisdom, you teach them justice for everybody, right? Not just yourself, and you teach them self-discipline. So we're gonna get to part of that, but I mean, that is so specific, and there's a way that stoics look at those and define those terms, that there is a way to raise Stoic kids, right? And that's the crux of it. It's just like for me and you, and anybody else listening that wants to be a stoic, it's the same thing, but you got to teach them as I think children learn the best, which is examples from you and from historical examples that really exemplify. So, what's your thoughts on the on the core principle being virtues over even reputation, which is a kind of uh an interesting ad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you know, it it's interesting, right? Growing up in the growing up in the 90s and 2000s, you know, I I graduated from high school in 2002. Um it was and even more so now, right? It was this big rise of like, you know, everything was a popularity contest. Everything was about, like you said, about clothes, who were you dating. And I'm sort of one of those exennials where I had an analog childhood, but my as I got older, it was like all of a sudden cell phones were a thing, and then it was um the internet, right? Which I remember I remember going to school and not having color computers, right? So it was kind of an interesting thing for me. I think I think it's an important thing to teach kids that it's not so much about what other people how other what other people do or say or see about you. It's really about, you know, the actions that you take, right? And doing those things because they're right or decent. And um, you know, I think that I see it with my I don't have kids of my own, but I have nephews. I have two nephews who are uh six and eleven. And um, it's tough because they they sometimes they struggle. They're like, well, I want it to look a certain way or whichever, and you're like, sh great, that's totally okay. But also, like, you know, are you happy with your outfit? Are you happy with things that you're doing? I think it's a very important, uh, important part of it, right? And the virtues give us sort of a baseline to work with. So I think this is probably, I think there's a reason why this is one of the first big ones for sure, because it gives us a a sort of a line to work with, right? We got to follow this line that's straighter than anything. And doing those things because they're right versus doing them because other people say they're cool. You know, I think that's a really, really important lesson to teach kids today. It's tough though. It's tough. So much is done for so much is done for the likes on the gram. I don't I don't know any of the TikTok terminology. I don't use TikTok or anything like that, but you know, it's one of those things. So yeah. I mean, this is an easy one. For stoics, it's easy. That's the interesting thing.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, but it and and it's really the the model you set, right? If you're ostentatious, you're you're basically saying that your wealth matters, right? So if you have to have the fanciest car, if you have the biggest house, you know. I mean, look, there's nothing wrong with wealth. I mean, we're both from capitalist countries, which, you know, sure, uh, I think is the best system by far, but you don't have to be ostentatious about it. That's a choice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like you can you can you can have a lot of wealth that maybe do a lot of good with the wealth, but even if you keep a lot of it, you don't have to you're you're demonstrating that um you find that to be very important if you are like that and your kids see that. You can be like one of I won't say the name because the whole point is, but like we have a friend here who's in our company or one of them who's comes from uh you know a family that started a huge company, yeah. Right. So we're talking Uber generational type. Um you never can never tell. You're talking driving an old pickup truck wearing, you know, you know, regular clothes. You'd never ever ever guess. And I don't think it's not an act, right? Um, because and then it then I ask you know a friend who's known him a lot longer, and it's like, yeah, it's the same way his parents are. Like it's it's it's taught, right? You can and and and these people do a lot of good, right? So they have that's that's a separate discussion. But my point being is um it's no matter what status you happen to actually be in the social economic, you can still present the right face for your kids. Yeah, right. You know, we used to drive throughout Ireland as a kid, and one of the things my dad would point out is like the Irish obviously were uh pretty poor, you know, European standards, but they always kept like really clean houses and yards. Really, really like so to and he's he always like you know, because no matter what your what your you know socioeconomic place is, you can still present the best of you. You know what I mean? Yeah, so whether you're a wealthy person who doesn't run around in fancy cars and trying to show off, or whether you're not so wealthy, but you you know, you still you still have the respect to really like present yourself, like that's what I think an example that your kids will have. Yeah, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00I totally, I totally totally get that. And you know, I we there are some famous people today who have specifically done as you suggested for this person you know, where you sort of cut down on the you cut down on the ostentatiousness and you you teach them through example, and you know, they're they're like my kids, you know, they didn't just get an iPhone, right, when they turn nine. Like, you know, they they live a pretty quiet life and and they don't just get everything handed to them, right? And I think that's one of those things that you know it's just so much as an example, right? Kids, kids are sponges, they're sucking everything up, right? So you gotta sometimes you have to keep that mind.
SPEAKER_02The next one that I put that is very stoic, going back to Zeno and this, you know, his version of the republic, uh, is that men and women should be treated equally when it comes to um learning the virtues, which back then meant basically being educated, right? If a stoic saying it's saying that they should be equal, period. Right. Um I mean, there's there's I think a majority of the world women aren't equal now, like right now, today, as of this day. Um a majority of the world, not just you know, uh a substantial portion of it. So this was uh and and obviously in both Canada and United States that is the case, I think. But it's it's good to highlight that uh you gotta do more than just say that, you gotta actually promote it with your kids.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think it's really important, especially to in today's day and age, because thing like it seems like you're hearing a lot of terms, especially around stoicism, right, that are sort of bro terms, right? Or like, you know, this uber man term, or like you know, this sort of you know bro code or whatever and all this stuff. And I'm always and it's just it's a very weird thing to me, right? Stoicism unfortunately has this connotations um a lot of the time right now about broicism or you know, stoicism with a capital M on the end, meaning for men or something like that. And while the lot of the stoics that we speak about are men, unfortunately, we'll do a podcast on that. Um the people about everything, right?
SPEAKER_02Like you can say that about history, you could say that about I mean, it's not unique to Stoicism, it's just no, it's not unique to stoicism. Not saying it's a good thing, but stoicism was actually the philosophy that I mean, we should do a whole thing with uh with a professor on this subject. Sorry, Danny. Um like name another philosophy that promoted this from since its inception for as long as stoicism has.
SPEAKER_00Oh, totally, totally. And and that's that's a very that's actually in some ways is fairly unique for us, right? In the sense of like it's written down within the teachings. So, but right now, and you know, especially we see this where you know it's like um it's like uh bro, I don't know, it just I get there's this weird undercurrent that seems like sometimes we're going back to this whole like, you know, um, well, men do this and women do that. And it's kind of like, well, I don't know, I don't know that I agree with that. And so I think it's important to I think it's really important to to to to teach that kind of equality, equality of access to education, equality of access to information, equality of opportunity, right? I think that's uh that's really important. And you know, it starts, it needs to start really early because it's it's something that I find is very hard to detrain from people now, um, is what I would say. Because like there are some of the stuff I've worked with a lot of students, right, in the engineering field, and some of them they come off quite broy, and it's kind of like you're 22. Like, how did how did how did you get how did you get that way? Like, uh, and I have been very lucky to have worked in teens that are very diverse, for example, in the workforce, but I feel like you got to get it in early, otherwise it just starts to stick with this really old school mentality of like his and hers, she and him, like and people not having the same kind of access, which is very weird to see. So I think it's great. I think that's a really great point.
SPEAKER_02It is, and it seems like in society now that there's a lot of retrograde action happening. But I mean, like, yeah, when we grew up, I'm pretty sure I can't speak for you, but I'm pretty sure you grew up being told that you know society should be colorblind, that it's not the color of your skin, but the content of your character. Um and kids are naturally, I think, inclined to it. If you think back. Yeah. Like they don't you gotta learn to be a racist or a misogynist, or generally speaking, kids just don't just you don't you don't come with that. Uh I had a fairly unique experience when I we lived in Massachusetts and it was during busing time. Do you remember the busing issues? Very controversial because oh yeah, they were trying to they were trying to desegregate the schools, even in the north, and uh so they were busing kids from inner city like way out to and then people were having issues. My parents were part of this, it was called the MECO program, the Metropolitan Education. I didn't know what the term at a time I looked up later, cooperation something association. I could be wrong about that, but instead of the kids uh busing, they just stayed with the families that were already out there. So I had a MECO brother, if you see what I mean.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I had a very early uh and obviously kids were like, I didn't care, but you you'd see the adults get uh pretty irritated by it, you know. So you yeah, you'd actually and you know, and I remember as a kid you kind of didn't even understand why. It's like, well, you know, it's just a kid. Like, what do you know? But so I I can't pretend that I was that savvy about the political stuff that were going on around it, but I do think you learn a lot about how you're gonna be when it comes to equality from your parents. In fact, I think you learn almost everything, even if the good and the bad. So everything you do and say, you gotta keep that in mind um around your kids, and especially when it comes to how you view other people that aren't like you. This one, the next one, uh I mean, I'm a big believer in this, but this might be a little more controversial to some of the helicopter parents out there. Um teach children how to endure discomfort, delay gratification and avoid luxury and value simplicity.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I I mean I'm uh this is not what happened in several generations. Several generations were told by their parents that they did no wrong, that they deserve to be exalted for mediocrity. That um it's true, man. I mean, that you know, they're they get pissed off when their kids didn't get an A at every test, or because they were forced to do PT and they're not that good, you know. Yeah, it's like, or that every kid gets a trophy because they participated, you know, highlight you know the people that you know were victory, victorious. Yes, right? It's kind of like I know this is kind of an old school, obviously, thousand-year-old, but thousands of year old, but like this needs to come back, I think.
SPEAKER_00I think as well.
SPEAKER_02You gotta learn how to endure discomfort. In fact, I just read, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. I'll I'll end this part on this, but I just read it had nothing to do with stoicism, but it was a bunch of psychiatrists who because you know, I'm about to have grandkids and stuff, so now I'm like reading all this stuff about kids again. But yeah, um the get ready. The number one thing for successful adults in their childhood is not wealth, it's not education, it's not even IQ, it's their ability to deal with adversity, yeah, to have that emotional intelligence, yeah, right. And if they go through a whole childhood with zero adversity, because their parents remove it, they're eventually gonna be an adult and they're gonna fall apart. Yeah, you build up that capacity to lay like, sorry you didn't make the team. Yeah, maybe you try harder to come back and try next year, but you didn't. You know what I mean? It is totally you have to learn that and delayed gratification, like literally teaching a kid, you're gonna have to pick up the playroom with all your friends, or you're not getting the, you know, whatever the treat is, a cookie.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like that's more important than everything else. IQ, what fancy schools you went to, how rich your parents were, any of that. Uh, and this was something I read, and it was it was uh like I think it was Stanford, could be wrong about that. But it was a real done by a real academic institution. It was done thousands of people over a long period of time that had been observed by psychiatrists, right? And it wasn't about stoicism, although it this is a key component, I think, to raising kids under a stoic machine. Anyway, over to you, buddy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm I you know this is a really interesting one, right? Because um well, I don't think we should um be punishing kids for getting for for for not winning, but you you know what I mean, because that also I think is horrible. And I've and I saw parents doing that, right, when I was a kid. But the thing I would say is is like something I've said many times is it's important for kids to hear the word no. It's important for kids to fail sometimes, right? Like you have to give them that opportunity to learn from that experience and and grow. Um and I usually think of a quote from Marcus about this where he's like, he's like, so you're facing adverse. I can't remember the quote exactly, but it's like you're facing adversity now. Have you faced it before in the past? Good. That doesn't mean you're gonna succeed now, but it does mean that you know you can endure it and you can go forward, right? And I think I think that's why this one is so important. I do believe that you know, you're when the kids on the football team, uh, or uh uh I think I was thinking soccer, but you uh you were probably thinking American football. But like when the kid's on the team and the team comes last, right, but they still have a pizza party, like I think that's okay because they tried really hard all season. But, you know, um the whole thing around like, you know, well, we came last and it's you know, making it sound like, well, everybody's great and perfect. It's like, well, that's not really a thing. That's not the thing in real life. You have to teach kids that stuff's gonna be hard. And one of the only ways to teach them that is for stuff to be hard. And you have to give them that, right? And you and you know, you mentioned helicopter parenting, right? I I'm not sure that I like that term because sometimes people throw you didn't do this, but I think people throw that out a lot. But I do think there is a concept there that we have to talk about about where it's like. Well, my kid's supposed to get an A. Well, your kid didn't study and got a C, so that's not that's that you have to let that happen. I'll tell you, I'll tell you two personal stories about this. They're quick, but it uh two personal stories about this. Like one of the best things that ever happened happened to me was flunking out of university. So I was an aerospace engineering student and I passed every course but calculus. I couldn't do calculus. I took calculus three times and I flunked out with a 3.2 GPA. So that explains, right? Um and what'd say that's tough. Yeah, it is it was tough, right? And then I learned that I didn't really know how to learn yet because it had just been kind of easy. And what ended up happening was I had to work, and I worked lots of jobs. I worked in construction, I worked, I sold shoes, I was a telemarketer, like I looked, I worked so many jobs, right? But I finally realized that I needed to turn my own life around. And so I reapplied, I went to college, which in Canada is different than university, right? So I went to college. I'm an engineering technologist, right? So I went to college and it was hard, but I did better in college and learned better in college because of all the lessons I learned as a kid. Because, like, sorry, it wasn't like, well, this is a few years earlier, because I had sort of, you know, failed and I had to learn how to fail, right? And that was that was one of the biggest lessons that I ever learned was that like it's okay to fail. You just and then you know, the lesson being you have to take responsibility for the failure. You have to take responsibility and learn how to do better next time. And that sometimes you fail and you pick yourself up and everything's great. And sometimes you fail and you don't get what you want, but you learn. And I think that's so important. Now, the second story I'll tell is very quick because I do a lot of mentoring activities in the engineering world, especially with young women, because I work with a group that specializes in women in aerospace called We actually. It's called Women in Aerospace, it's like a special group, and I'm a mentor for them. But, anyways, I was at a job fair one time, and I we, you know, a thing I love to ask a kid, it's like, so what's your dream here? Like, what would you love to do? And the kid said, I want to be the commander of the International Space Station. And I don't know what possessed me. I said, What happens if you're the vice commander? And his brain like exploded. And he had like, I had to sit him down. He was having like a bit of an emotional moment in that time because I think I think he may, I don't know what happened. You know what? I don't know what happened. And we were talking, and I ended up talking it through with him. I said, you know, just what you gotta remember, like sometimes we still have great things happen to us, even if it doesn't come out the way we think it's gonna go, right? So it was an interesting lesson for him. It was an interesting lesson for me because I was very I felt terrible at the time, but at the same time, it's like, you know, no, he had just never thought that he might come sh come up short in anything. And I was worried, I think, subconsciously, that it would be not a good thing for him. So I I really do urge people, it's like, let your kid fail, let them try, let them build the model kit and glue their fingers together, like let them screw up the you know, the the airplane or the Lego kit or whatever. Let them do that, let them do it and go, oh, well, it's okay. I can just take it apart and do it again. I can try again, I can keep going. And I think that's so important. In fact, I think this is one of the more important, most important rules for parents today is like you gotta let them screw up. So you and I probably both grew up where there was like a forest behind your house, or like you know, covered in dirt, right? It was like come home when the streetlights come on, right? Like I remember we had so much freedom, and you know, you'd screw up. I fell off my bike one time and scraped off like half my face, and and uh I learned that you don't try and ride over tennis balls. That is a dumb story, but true.
SPEAKER_02And the thing is though, it's irrelevant to what you're talking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it was hard. Like I like I was I was I remember I had I had to wear I had like I looked like um two-faced from uh Batman for a long time, right?
SPEAKER_02But I think that now if you go into schools, like nobody has a cast when we grow up, there was always some kid with a cast, right? Yeah, think about it. Like nobody ever has cast, like you know, if you if you take your generation and the people that go into the schools to get their kids, they notice it. They're like nobody's ever injured, you know. That's a good thing, right? It's like, yeah, is it you know? I mean, we don't want kids to break their leg or yeah, but it's like, are they doing anything? Are they actually going outside? And it's like a cliche, but it's true. Like our your generation obviously just said it, mine's for sure. Parents just told you to get the hell out of the house. And like they didn't want to see you till dinner, at least mine. And yeah, they didn't know where you were. Again, I'm not saying like the it's that was just what parents were like back then, but now we've gone to the other extreme where you the parents won't let their kids leave the house, therefore they don't do much, right?
SPEAKER_00Um, like I think it's especially oh well, totally. I think it's good that parents know where their kids are because I remember like I now that I know, I did this exercise for myself maybe 10-15 years ago where I I know where my house was in a place called Pickering, which is in Ontario, and I I'm not in there, I'm not there anymore, but it had this huge forest just north of where the house was. And I actually finally I found a place that my I used to go to when I was a kid, I was like 11, and I was like in American terms, I'm probab I was probably five, six miles from my house, maybe maybe more. And when I think about that now, like I for a kid on a bicycle, I was far away. For and I was a tiny kid, so it was like I was pretty far away. Um, so I do think it's good that parents know where their kids are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was I want to know where my grandkids when they I mean, I don't need to know where my kids are now, but right, but no, but you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Like having that, I think that's better because it because there's the opposite problem where it's like, you know, I remember you know, you'd get the police would come and do like safety lessons when you were in school and you'd learn about the kid who like you know didn't tell his parents where he was, and then he got injured, and then you know, he could have been saved.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, there's a there's a happy medium, like you can I think so, you can let them explore, be close by, do things like track them on their you know, wristwatch or you know, the apple tags or whatever they call them, stuff like that. There's ways to do stuff that's yeah that still gives them and you know, one thing, you know, because I grew up all over the place, one thing when we moved from the Massachusetts to Georgia, right? Yeah, totally different society. But one of the things that kind of struck me pretty quick is at least at the time, um, like every adult could essentially discipline a kid, didn't have to be your kid, right? And and kids were expected to like, and I don't mean like go slap them around. I don't believe in that discipline anyway. But like if you were screwing around and a adult was just walking out of Piggly Wiggly, which is a grocery store down there, um, hey young man, stop doing that. You you were expected to say, Yes, sir, sorry, sir, I won't do that anymore. And it was different than Massachusetts, where kids were, you know, they were kind of like, hey, you know, my parents grew up. Like, I remember that. Like, I kind of, as a parent, I I like I told my friends and certainly our neighbors, like, if our kids are screwing up, just tell them. Tell us. Like, you don't, if if they and if they back talk you and you say, hey, stop throwing rocks, I need to know if they back talk you. You see what I mean? Like, yeah, I know you mean there is a there is a conservative, you know, not in a political sense, way of raising kids. And that includes like all adults you should listen to. And uh and you don't get to back talk just because it's not your parents. You back talk an adult, you better have a real good reason. And I think we've gotten away from that. Like most most people now, if it's not your kid, if it's not their you know direct parents, they just yeah, you're not the boss with me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like there's a difference between there's a difference between being annoyed that someone's baby is crying or their kids having a tantrum. Like that's the parents already very worried about what everybody else is thinking. So don't do that. We're not saying that. Right. But like I was in the I was I was seeing a movie a couple of weeks ago with some friends, and uh there were the there was a group of kids in there, it's about 12 of them, and they were down at the front and they were yelling at the screen, like one of the com I'm not gonna say it because it's such a stupid catchphrase, but they were yelling one of the current catchphrases at the screen when things would go really quiet. And I didn't do anything because I because it was that weird thing of like we can't do anything. And I what I what I would have done is gone and been like, you guys need to stop doing that right now. Is that right? But um, it w it was not really the right way. Also, it was a very packed theory. I couldn't get out to them easily, but at the same time, it was like eventually someone in the crowd was just like, shut up, and then it stopped, and it was like that's okay. You know what I mean? Like, like it doesn't, I don't want to be rude to the kids, but they're being rude, right? Yes, I like I don't think I would have said it that way to the kids, but it's like they're being rude, they will not learn, and frankly, not that I'm supposed to swear on this podcast, like they're gonna grow up to be assholes because they're not gonna think about anybody but themselves.
SPEAKER_02Yes. So let's not let that happen. It's like a conservative version of it takes a village, is what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, like uh in and so in modern times, if an a if a person, adult, even if they were completely polite, got up and said, Can you guys come outside for a second and start lecturing them on you know the politeness of yelling during movies? Yeah, nowadays parents would lose their mind. Oh, you're taking my kids outside, you're lecturing them. Yeah, because you weren't doing it. You know, so anyway, I don't want to get like too hung up on that, but that's a positive in my opinion. I think you should be telling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and uh, but I think this is a very important topic, right? Because we are struggling with kids nowadays where it's like um, you know, the bell curve, the use of bell curves, the use of standardized testing, and the kids just have to pass the test, like they're not failing, they're not they're not learning, they're not growing, right? Like I had I had crap test scores in school. I work, I'm not saying have having crap test scores, you can always still work with the space program, but I had to learn how to fail to be better at growing up so that I could hopefully, I would say, turn into the person I am now and work with the space program. That's so you know what I mean. It's like, and when you hear the stories of like the astronauts and mission controllers and flight directors from the 60s, those guys like they went to war. It was like we grew up on a farm and we didn't have running water or electricity because it was uh like the 30s, right? Right. That's hard, that's a hard life, and they learned. So we should. I'm not saying take, you know, I'm not saying take away running water from your kids, but making them have to face some tough times.
SPEAKER_02I actually would well, not permanently, but so that's I mean, that's part of where the broicism comes from because it's you know, it's about like doing CrossFit and doing challenging things and ice baths and stuff. But I and I think it is part, it actually is part of stoicism. It's not confined to men, right? You know, go watch the Katie Taylor Taylor fight in September, which is uh, I think the greatest uh female boxer in history. Uh and yes, she is Irish. But the I mean the the concept of like having your kids like endure stuff, I think is super important.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's why I'm like Cub Scouts, Boy, like Eagle Scouts, you know, being in the cadets. Camping, yes.
SPEAKER_02Yep, or just start your own club with your friends' kids and your kid and teach them how to you know light a flyer with sticks, the whole thing, catch a fish, skin a fish, cook a fish, yep, like I know, and and like climb up a mountain. If your kid doesn't isn't climbing up mountains, you're you're missing out. They need to know like this sucks. Am I gonna make it? I don't know if I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna keep pushing. Oh my goodness, I'm almost at the top. I've got to the top. Like that for a kid is a is a success. Yep, like totally. And nowadays you can't even get schools to do the presidential, and at least it's the United States, presidential fitness, physical fitness test. Oh, because you know, kids can't climb a rope. Well, let's teach them how to climb a rope then. Well, it's too hard for them. Well, that's the point. You know what I mean? Yeah, like yeah, I do. Now you got kids that are coming out of school that can't do a push-up, who've never been told to run a lap, right? Because it's somehow cruel. And you know, any physical diversity that hits them in their life, uh, your car breaks down and you got to walk from an isolated place in Canada. As you know, there's a lot of places in Canada where if your car breaks down, you better be a tough one. You could be hundreds of kilometers from anywhere right now. Yeah, oh yeah. Anyway, like you got to get them ready for the case. Look, I was a beep test kid.
SPEAKER_00Yep. I was a beep test kid, right? The beep the beep test was in some ways the most humiliating. Oh, you don't know what the beep test is? I do not. Oh, uh, because I grew up in England. Maybe it was an English thing, but the beep test was one where it was a series of beeps. So it was basically you were doing suicides in a gymnasium. So you were going off one full length of the gymnasium, and every time, and you had to make it to the wall before the beep. And the beeps were were really long beeps. It was like the so you would you would be touching one wall, right? Everybody was touching one end of the gymnasium wall, and then it would beep, and you had to run to the other wall before the beep happened. If you didn't touch the wall before the beep went, you were out. And I remember there was this Japanese kid the one time, the last time I ever did it, and he was going and it was like beep, beep, like he was sprinting, like it was, and so it'd just turn it like beep, and then it'd be like a minute, and then it'd be like beep, and then beep, yeah, beep, right? Beep, and then eventually it's beeping, and the beeps are like 10 seconds apart, or five, I think it was six seconds apart when he got his final. It was like, and there's somebody with a record of this in the UK, like somebody has a beep test record where they get to like, I don't know, it's one second between beeps, which I don't think is possible, but you know what I mean? It's like I was a beep test kid, and it was so humiliating because you'd get you'd get out and ever and then there, and then you you kind of wanted to make it to the halfway point so that there were that there were more people more people out than in the beep test, and then you could drop out, right? But it was so humiliating, and I didn't, I I struggled with that for so long.
SPEAKER_02Um, because of the tried to drop a lot of that stuff. I know, and then it's like, well, my kid isn't great at physical fitness. Well, all right, my kid isn't great at math, right? You know, it's it's humiliating to fail calculus too, buddy. You know what I'm saying, which I would have done uh done myself. So it's like, hey, that's just part of life. You might as well do it in a controlled environment where you can, you know, assist them, coach them, tutor them. Um, but the answer isn't it's too hard for them to do this, so let's just not have them do it. And of course, yeah, that also goes into the whole uh uh issue of uh physical fitness and health long term, right? So it's it's totally just uh all right. Let's do one more. Oh yeah, we have one more. I'll do. Oh, this is this is one that he that Rufus is really pushes. Um it's not unique to him, but it's certainly part of his, which is that a family is like the basis of society. Like it should be promoted. Um a healthy, you know, uh marriage, relationship, to raise kids, to raise is like the core uh structure of a society. Um we should spend more time. I personally think like in this I tell young parents is you know, the more adults that give a hoot about your kids, the better. Like you want more adults uh in in like parental roles, yeah, you know, in their life, mental roles. And I do think people should be more open to it because um every adult I think has an obligation personally, they might people might disagree with me to be like part of the next generation. I mean educate people in the next, I mean that's the humans are uh in a society we're social and we like Marcus want uh people to be better. And you can't just expect them to be better and ignore them. So uh I I do I would say this is what I get out of that specifically is that it does take more than one adult and parent. So you need coaches, you need mentors, you need teachers, and you should be open to your kids having as long as they're a positive influence, right? Um setting a good example, just like you should be, but you should want that. You should want them to like have a coach that they super look up to or their Cub Scout den leader or what have you. Like and you should seek to be that, even if you know you have your own kids, you can still help other kids. You know, it's not just about your kids, right? It's about the whole yeah, uh it's about everybody. That's why I'm linking it to this point by uh Lucenius Rufus is that society is an effort in it, but it is the core of uh human civilization.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I think you know, we should also think about it being represented as that it that society is a collaborative effort, right? Like if you if you think about what a family is, right? A good, strong family that communicates and and you know, they're very tight-knit, right? Like, you know, if you have siblings, right, you're gonna do stuff for your siblings, right? You might find them incredibly annoying. I my sister and I didn't always like each other growing up. But you know, I think it's the basis of how we get into this circumstance of people who want to serve in a society in some way as well. Even voting is serve is a service act in a way for me, because you're not always voting for yourself. You're voting for others, you're voting for things that may not affect you but are better for society as a whole, right? And I think that the family starts there when you learn to when you learn to kind of build that family, when you learn to grow that family, to support your siblings, help your mom do the dishes, you know, mow the lawn because your dad has to plant the rose bushes, right? Like, I think those are things that that teach people this value of like building something together and thinking about the group a little bit more. To me, nowadays feels very, very I hate to say selfish, but I'll say individualistic. Today it's very individual-oriented. It's like, well, I don't like this, so I don't, you know, I'm not doing whatever and yada yada. And it's like, that's fine. Everyone should be taking their own individual responsibility for stuff. But sometimes in society, right, we do stuff that maybe goes against our self-interest because it's better for the whole, better for all of us. And when you have a family, I think that's a microcosm of that, right? It's like you make the decision to help paint the garage instead of go out with your friends or whatever, right? Like that means the house isn't good neck. That means that you guys aren't running out of money because you have to spend $10,000 on a new garage door, whatever that is. And I that's how I see it. It's probably a weird view to some people, but I think it starts in the home, this idea of thinking about others. You think about your siblings, you think about your parents, and then if you have a big family, and I don't come from a big family, um, you think about your cousins, you think about your grandparents, your aunts and uncles, these people that you're close with. And even the idea of forming a social family around like close neighbors, close friends, I think teaches kids this idea of like, we are not islands. We we we we operate in this social sphere where we interact with other humans and we might not interact with them directly, but we have impacts on others in the world. So I think this is a very important one from that perspective because you know, a family in a way is a beehive, right? You've got you've got someone who's leading the hive, you've got people who are doing work to bring money in for the hive, you've got people within it who you have to take care of it, right? You have to take care of each other, and it's a very social thing to be in a family. So I would agree with Rufus that this is a very big deal.
SPEAKER_02So we have more, but we will hit that in the next we will.
SPEAKER_00We will. So um I would like to say thank you to everybody today for uh for listening to us on this podcast episode. Oh yes, Mick, go ahead. You uh wanted to mention something.
SPEAKER_02Uh so my friends, uh John Sellers, uh who's a professor, and Justin Steed, who runs the Aurelius Foundation, uh have a new book, uh Stoic Leader. Haven't had a chance to read it, but I am going to tomorrow because I'm gonna be on a plane, so I will bring a copy with me. But um super influential um stoics, been around for a while, and uh I am sure this book is excellent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I'll put a link for yeah, I'll put info on that book in the show notes for everybody. Um, but uh we would definitely love to hear from the say again, Mick. Sorry, friends of the podcast as we like to say friends of the podcast, great way to put it. Um, we'd love to hear from friends of the podcast out in the public, too. I mean, this is a great topic that I think deserves conversation. This is the pub and porch style of applying this stoicism of having the conversations, learning from each other. So we'd love to hear from you. Info at pubandporch.com. Leave us a comment on the video uh version of the podcast or or Twitter. Uh, we seem to be getting some tweets now. Um, that would be great. So we'd love to hear from you guys uh in the industry, parents, uncles, grandparents alike. It's you know, aunts, uh, grandmothers, you know, uh stepparents, all of that. Everybody in the spectrum of raising um our kids in this next generation, I think we'd love to hear from you. So do you have any closing thoughts for us today, then, Mick?
SPEAKER_02No, I look forward to the next one. Where we're not only complete Rufus' original list, but we'll talk about the modern challenges of raising children and being children, um, and how Rufus might look at that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally. Well, we'll look forward to that. So uh we'll see everyone on the next one. Cheers, Mick. Slotcha.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for stoicism, send it to us, and then we can be reached at info at puppin'porch.com. Today's music was provided by Ben Sound.com. Until next time, Pump Porch out