Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life. Hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, with my co-host Mick Mulroy. Today we're going to be stepping into the uh second part of our um raising kids episode, um, talking about uh Musonius Rufus rules on raising kids. And uh Mick uh will start us off with the list. Um, but uh I think um for those of you joining us now, if you do want to see the whole uh listen to the whole list, then feel you know, remember to go back to our Musonius Rufus Raising Kids Part 1 episode, um, which uh will have aired before this one, hopefully, unless I messed up the math. So but uh Mick, why don't you kick us off for today?
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I should start with saying um happy Father's Day. This is uh yes, it is Father's Day US. Uh so very appropriate for a raising kids episode. I just when I was running this morning, I was listening to a special, I think it was on CNN. It was uh you know, about people talking about their fathers. And I and one very poignant um piece was by Senator Mark Kelly, who I know. Um he actually spent an hour listening to me about uh humanitarian issues around the world. That tells you a lot, I think, as a senator, that he would spend that much time talking to me about that. But he um talked about his dad. Uh and it's worth it's uh I think it was Jake Tapper, if people are interested in hearing it. I mean, here's a guy super accomplished, right? Um Senator, astronaut, just to tie into you know all things pub and ports, right? So and he was a fighter pilot uh in the Navy, uh decorated fighter pilot. Okay, um, twin brothers, right? So his him and his brother are really important in the space program. Don't need to tell you this because they're identical twin brothers and they're both they were astronauts, right? So they can actually test the effects of space on them because one would be on Earth, one would be in that's right. Um they did a comparative study between them. Yeah, yeah. So um maybe we should have one talk about stoics in space. But and he's been on eyes on, by the way, and he was he did a good job. Um but his his story, unfortunately, and I think I can say this with some authority, it's common in the Irish-American community, is yeah, his father was accomplice in the sense that he was, you know, in the 82nd Airborne, so he was a soldier, he was a police officer, uh, and he was a drunk, and he was a violent drunk. And he grew up watching it over and over and over again. Um, not just violence toward people in general, but his mother, which is the worst thing for any kid to potentially ever see. Um, and you know, he even talked about how his dad would put in front of his kids, put a gun in his mouth um and threaten to kill himself, right? So just a brutally horrible and you know, why are you telling a story on Father's Day? Um, because you know, not all fathers are perfect. I mean, I kind of viewed my dad as essentially perfect, so I had the opposite. Literally, my dad was like a saint. Um but not all people's dads are like that. Some of them are the opposite, and somehow they uh overcame that, both him and his brother. Um you know, maybe they used his example of everything not to do. And he said he did recover at the end and make amends, so it's important to put that in. But I'm using it more of as an example than a specific thing about Senator Kelly. Um you're either gonna be one or the other as a parent, really. You're gonna be the one your kids want to emulate, or you're gonna be the ones your kids want to do anything but emulate. Uh maybe there's a happy middle there, but I think parents should go into uh their role um thinking about that. Uh you're you're gonna either set the because you can tell them to do things, yeah, and then you can show them to do things. Right? And the showing matters more. Kids get really quick, they understand hypocrisy. They understand do as I say, not as they do, and they disregard it. So I just start with that. I mean, not to be a bummer on Saint I mean, on uh Father's Day, but it is truly, you know, parenthood can go both ways. You can have a great impact uh in a in a in a positive sense, or you can have a great impact in a negative sense. So um, and for fathers in particular, you know, there used to be kind of this concept that you know I I'm a provider, and you do need to be a provider. I think that's the core of what a father, a provider and a protector is, I think, you know, what I think of when I think of the job as a father. Um, but don't in there, don't rest on your laurels, don't say, well, I work all the time, so I'm doing my job. Uh that's not doing your job, it's doing a part of your job. In one of the things that kicked this, and we're gonna get into a lot of the current trends that are affecting this, but one of the current trends that they brought up in the show before they went, they had positive examples too, like uh Mitt Romney's father, for example, was you know he he had a staggeringly positive impact on Senator Romney. So I guess it was all senators for some reason. But um the fatherlessness problem is a growing big issue. The kids growing up without father figures is a really big issue, and it's having a profound effect. So uh I'll go to our list uh and I have to use my spectacles because I can't figure out how to make this bigger. Uh and this comes from Husanius Rufus Lectures and Fragments, translated by Cora E. Didn't some of these are the same, but let's talk about it in the sense that of modern education issue. Teach virtue before wealth. I'll read three at a time and then we can discuss. Teach virtue before wealth, lead by example, kind of what that was just saying, and raise sons and daughters equally in virtue and education. And remember, this was thousands of years ago, right? It should there should be a news flash the third one today, but that was actually substantial back then. And guess what? Um, every country isn't like Canada and the United States, there's plenty of countries, plenty of countries, where the third one ain't happening. Right. Raise sons and daughters equally in virtue and education. Right. Uh so the first three, I'll throw it back to you, but let's let's also talk about what kids are facing, therefore their parents are in modern uh times as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, you know, for me the leading by example one always kicks up first, right? I think um out of the three, that's number two you were saying, but out of the three. Leading by example is one of those things that um uh you know, I remember I'm not a father, um, but I remember um you know, I have nephews, and I remember I was I was sort of telling them not to like it's okay, like we don't we don't really do that, right? And then I was doing whatever it was what we were saying. I can't remember what it was exactly. And I remember my one nephew, my older nephew, who's actually my godson as well, he said, but you're doing it too. And I was like, Oh, right, I guess I am. I think it was looking at my phone or something like that. And he and he he actually stood in front of me between me and the phone. He was about six or seven, and he went, Are you okay? And I was like, Yes, I am. And I realized that I was basically glued to this thing for whatever reason, and there was really no reason for it. So the example is really a key one. Um, you know, we were talking about it, right? Kids don't, they they see hypocrisy immediately because in many ways, right? Like, you know, as you if you look at the development of kids, right, at younger ages, it's very black and white. And then it's not until you get into the at least when they start hitting puberty and adolescence, that they become it's rational thinking, which includes sort of that gray area. So, like if you asked a kid who's like six, it'd be like, you know, should you should you steal bread to feed your family? And they would say, Don't steal. But if you ask, I've seen I've seen footage of these studies when I was in university and taking social sciences. The you know, you'd ask the same kid seven years later, right? And they're 13, 14, and they would go, well, but like, are there do they have kids? Are their kids starving, right? We shouldn't have starving kids. So there's more nuance to that, but young kids especially, for them it's black and white. So they see through all the baloney pretty quickly. And I think I and I'm not saying set an example so that you don't get called out. It's more like set an example because they will know. And, you know, it's uh it's it's one of those key things that I think always comes up for me. And then the last one I'll quickly talk about, which is the third one. Because I think the first one is I I struggle with the with the first one with saying anything extra to the first one because it's kind of just makes sense to me. Yeah, but the third one virtue over wealth. Yep. Virtue over wealth, yeah. I certainly don't have wealth, so uh I only get virtue.
SPEAKER_00You don't have that struggle, yeah.
SPEAKER_01But um the but the third one though is an interesting one for me, right? Because um I think there's an equality to this that uh you could always extrapolate out in the modern world, right? Like, you know, I I was someone who had to st I study design when I was in in college, uh mechanical design, but just product design as well. And I remember that it was like, you know, growing up as well in the 90s, as a kid in the 90s, there was always that thing where it was like you had like the super soaker, and then you had like the girl super soaker that was pink. And it was always like, what is that? What is the deal with that, right? And I know it seems like it doesn't equate to this, but it's like the thing is, is that anybody can do anything. I have met many people in my recent years, because I'm now a hiring manager and stuff like that. I've met many people in my recent years who are tradeswomen. There's tradesmen and tradeswomen now, right? Who are doing plumbing and construction and like these are hard jobs. And for some, you know, for some reason, we we still sometimes think that like, you know, it'll be like the boys' toys will be like, you know, I want to be a fighter pilot and I want to be an astronaut, and then the girls' toys will be like, I'm gonna be a nurse, I'm gonna be a baker. And you're like, well, what those can that can flip, right? And I think that equality, showing teaching equal equally and showing all that stuff equally, I think is very important to me. I work with the maker festival. I've worked in the past with the maker festivals here in Toronto where they teach like making skills. It started as like 3D printing and making stuff with your hands, and it felt very boy-centric at first, and I was the one who was like, no, we need to teach, we need to teach this very equally to everybody. So that always resonates with me because it shouldn't be, there should be no distinction as far as I'm concerned. And as you were saying, in the world today, even, right, it's still like, you know, um, it still doesn't feel equal everywhere. Now, every every culture and every family gets its shoes and stuff like that, but there is a point where you're like, it's it, you need it to be shown to be equal. Again, acting, it's about the action of make showing that it's equal. There's no boys and don't do this or girls don't do this. It's just we all learn together, right? That's my view.
SPEAKER_00So, but what's your take, Mick? Yeah, well, uh well, one of the things that you brought up that I think is one of the bigger factors when it comes to raising kids today is these damn devices, right? Yeah. Um and yeah, as guilty as anybody else, I obviously I have to keep in touch with uh work on all sorts, especially you know, well, me too. Yeah. Um, but that's uh I think it's one of the biggest issues that they have raising kids right now. And quite frankly, like can you imagine if you created the ideal town? I wouldn't cut it off from technology, but I would I would have a happy I'm like your king for mayor for a day. So I'm kind of like making the stuff up, right? Mayor for a day, like kids shouldn't have devices. They should have access to like all the information that the internet provides, you know. Yeah, I just don't think they should have devices. You can go to school, you can have the computer, you can you can learn things, you can be in a controlled way, and we should get into all the the toxic stuff that's on the internet too. But just having devices, I think, honestly, just it just gets them away from reality. They just get buried in this thing. Yeah, and it's designed to entice you to continuously look at it. I mean, if it's almost like a like a psychological, you know, drug, uh right, or a virtual drug. Um it's almost always for the wrong reasons, right? They they lure you in for like making you mad at something, yeah, right, which is a powerful emotion. Um it and if you just I mean, I understand you want to know where your kids are, but you can do that with you know, like a watch that you could text them or something, and it could tell you where they are, right? I I'm not I'm not counter to modern technology, I'm fine with it. But that we should just balance it based on what's helpful, what's not, instead of just saying it's all we're all in, right? And if it can you imagine if kids went back to actually talking to each other or being able to order food at a restaurant, look at people in the eyes, walk up to an adult and talk to them. Um they didn't bully each other on these things all day long. Yeah, I mean, they didn't get exposed to like crazy levels of inappropriate stuff.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, you don't just mean older than you. Yeah, but I don't think we just mean in that way, like, you know, um content, like adult content. We're even talking about just like body image stuff that's really inappropriate. You gotta be skinny, you gotta be, you gotta be rocking some eight-pack, and otherwise you're not cool or whatever. And then, you know, there's a reason, like I remember the trend in the early 2000s where the where the circumstances of teenage anorexia and bulimia was like skyrocketing. And it's always been a problem in high school age kids, right? Because we're all, you know, everyone's trying to figure themselves out. But you're right about the um the fact that it's it's creating all this inappropriate stuff. I want to I want to say one thing and then get back to you, which is there's actually been studies on this one kids kids game, which I won't name because I it's not my place to name it, but it's like a kids' game where you build stuff, and um the study found that it had the same neural response to in your in kids' brains as if they were taking like a class A drug, like uh like a methamphetamine or like uh cocaine or something like that. So like these things are designed to be addictive, to actually be addictive, not not they're addictive by accident, they're designed to be addictive, and it's just like, oh god, that's that's uh that's a battle that we're all fighting right now. Anyway, sorry, just to add to what you were saying, because the level of the level of things these kids are seeing these days, I mean, I struggled with it and I was around for the birth of the modern internet in like you know the the late 90s, early 2000s as a kid, but even now I struggle with it as an adult. I'm like, God, I gotta put this phone down. This is ridiculous, right?
SPEAKER_00So yep, I do too. Um and maybe having kids will force you to be because set the example, right? You can't be yelling at your kid not to be on the phone or taking the phone away and then you're staring at the phone all the time. I mean, my dog even like um knocks a phone out of my hand. Like seriously. Like right kids are all grown in the mirror, but I might yeah, I don't know, she does. Like, if she's late if she's sitting next to me, she will pot with her giant paw just knock out the kids. It's funny, right? She wants attention, you know. Yeah, so but I mean, it's funny, but you know, there's something there, right? There's something there. Like to her, she's like, why is this guy so obsessed with this piece of plastic? But um, so but there's multiple parts to this issue with kids and in devices. And one, you already mentioned, like, we should talk about each one, I think, separately, uh, body image stealth, right? Especially for girls, but I imagine boys have some, this has an effect. It started where the only thing you'd see on social media was like the beautiful people from around the world, whatever that definition is, right? So you're not comparing yourself now to your little town in Idaho, you're comparing yourself to the globe, right? Um, so there was that stage. Then the second stage was like all these filters and stuff people could do with pictures to remove any perceived, you know, blemish, blemish or whatever, right? Um so then they were comparing themselves to that. So it's not even necessarily a real person, but it's the globe that's been doctored. Now, I mean, you don't even know if people person's real.
unknownI know.
SPEAKER_00So now it's they have dimensions that have never existed on one human female, right? Um, and and so it's just toxic, especially for young girls, to grow up thinking like I am somehow supposed to look like this person. And they don't because people look all sorts of different, and it's fine. But that is one in how do you explain that? Well, you can explain it, but you can also take that just toxic influence away. Just do it. You can't. Like you can't. We all know there's only so many things parents can say to a kid that's gonna break through to them. And saying that, you know, dad likes you, thinks you're beautiful the way you are, of course you're gonna say that, and you should say that. But if they're constantly seeing these people that look, you know, completely different, yeah. It's you're you're fighting a losing battle is what I'm saying. Devices should come away from kids until they're old enough to make those decisions. That's my opinion. You say, oh, that's Draconian. No. It's more important that we take care of kids than we worry about some billionaire selling more phones. Right. Don't care.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but right, yeah, and I think you know, having family iPads or having family technology that you can like, you know, you can essentially earn time on and things like that. I've seen that work very well. But you know, it's it also restricts what you're looking at, right? Yeah, yeah, like setting those controls in place and stuff like that too, for sure. But I wanted I wanted to quickly go back to this body image situation because in terms of equality with with you know, equal education for for boys and girls, I think what I find really interesting today, right, is that um, and I think this is actually moving in somewhat of a positive trend, um, is that there's been there's long been this idea, right, where guys are supposed to be like jacked like Arnold and girls are supposed to be skinny and small. And what I'm seeing now is like, you know, girls can be strong, girls can play sports. Like, you know, I I was so excited as a Canadian when the you know professional women's hockey league started up because like those girls come to play, they come to play, right? And you kind of sit there going like, wow, this is this is really high quality hockey, right? And I think what's very important here is that idea that like you know, something I was kind of saying before, it's like anybody can kind of be anything. Like, if you want to be super, super skinny and be a gymnast, then be a gymnast. Well, not that every gymnast is skinny, but if you want to be jacked and like do whatever that crossfit thing is, I'm sorry, I don't know what it is exactly possible.
SPEAKER_00But like, you know, you see, yeah.
SPEAKER_01It is just called CrossFit, I guess. Yeah. So, and but those, you know, some of those, some of those women are jacked and they're so strong and they're so fast, and you kind of go like, well, all right then, you're right. It's in some ways, it's just like this equality of image of just it's it matters about how you feel about yourself, right? And you know, it's an it's an interesting thing to me today. Um, and I think I actually do think that in some cases there's a positive trend here where it's like if you want to be, if you want to be be very fit and strong, then be strong. And it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman. Um, but at the same time, there's also there's there's a lot of like dysmorphic type stuff out there where you're just sitting there going, wow, I did I didn't know humans looked like that, and then you realize they don't. Or they do if they have like surgery, and you're just like, holy cow, that's a that's a very different world than I think we all imagined when we were kids, you know, playing in the world.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's just gonna go up. I know more people look at you know AI generated images. You like you said, women are supposed to be somehow small, skinny, but have giant dimensions, right? Well, they're not, they're supposed to look you what I would tell, and I did tell. Know my girls and I've got daughters and goddaughters and all that stuff. Um you exercise, you eat healthy, and there you go. Yeah, you that's where you're supposed to be. That's where you're supposed to be. Um, and I know that's like what every dad says, but like I do think you want your kids to be healthy, and to be healthy, you need to you know, eat eat healthy and and exercise, I think. But yeah, but so that's that's one thing. But can you imagine that if uh nowadays um girls could grow up without that really overwhelming uh I think uh feeling that they don't compare because it they're comparing themselves to not even real people. And nor nor does it shit even matter that you're you shouldn't even compare yourself even to real people uh when it comes to looks, right? Um the other thing that's I think a more of a problem for boys, I know that both sides of these things can can be a problem, but yeah, is uh like when I grew up a Playboy. You familiar with what a Playboy is? Of course. Don't know. Okay, so it was basically pictures and uh women that were nude, right? Uh I don't think it even exists anymore. But that was like a commodity for young boys, right? Like you'd pick pull the pictures out, and I mean it was like a big deal, but it essentially was just nude people, right? And you'd hide them and stuff, and your mom would find them and you'd blame them on your buddy, and then all of a sudden things fell apart, right? Uh yes, this is uh this I'm not just hypothetically saying this. But nowadays, and I'm not saying that's good, but let's face it, porn's been around since before stoicism, right?
SPEAKER_01Like you go to some of the each nodes and you I was in Pompeii. Yeah, yeah, I was in Pompeii and Herculaneum. It's it's not it's out in the open, it's on the side of the building. You're like, okay. Yeah, it hasn't changed. It was another there's a brothel in Pompeii where it's like going to a McDonald's, like there's different activities on the wall, and you basically you got to pick one, pick them, and I was like, man, I don't I don't I I do not know what a super deluxe is, right? Because it was just like because you would pick it, it's very nuts. But I agree, I I I agree with you though, it's like it's always gonna be around, like it's always gonna be around.
SPEAKER_00But the problem is now, because of this device and technology, it's not just coming on device, but you know, unrestricted matches that yeah, they go from looking at breasts, let's just be blunt, to seeing just stuff that people shouldn't see. Like stuff that most normal people would see like that's a thing. And it's just like like like two clicks away, right? Yeah, and yeah, it's a very extreme. And let's face it, because it's on some official looking thing, yeah, especially from a kid's perspective, they might have the impression that it's normal. Right? And then they go down this rabbit hole, uh, and then of course they do what they do, what young boys do, and then they get separated from like what a real relationship that does have intimacy is to whatever the hell version of that is. Whether in the basement, you know, like it's it's antisocial, it's yeah, it's completely unfulfilling. You will eventually feel like a disconnected human loser. You're because you're not actually making any physical or emotional contact with anybody else, it's all human cyber crap, right? So, and I know everybody listening to this knows all this stuff, but my I'm bringing it up because that's one of the reasons why you got to just take. I mean, if if when they get to an adulthood and they want to go down this path, then that's for their friends to try to help. But as your parents and your kids, you I just think you gotta step up. You can't ignore it. And I think there's a lot of uh people my age and older aren't really that cognizant of it because they still like have flip phones and stuff. So they're like, Well, what are they looking at? You know, they just they don't even know what the kids are looking at on the internet, you know. And you you gotta, if if this is an eye-opening conversation that we're having, then you need to open the eyes and literally just put the restrictions on the phone, take the phone away. Like you said, have family iPads or computers. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff on the internet, right? It's just like everything else in the world. You can learn a lot, you can learn a ton. It's literally every uh you know, book in the world is now pretty much available, especially the historic ones. Uh right on your so it's not all negative, but that's another thing that I think is extremely uh disconcerting that needs to be addressed in modern paramount is yeah, both the images uh that you see that negatively affect young people, especially young girls, and the images that you see that make negatively affect young people, especially young boys. And that's it's it's not healthy. And we're seeing people not have relationships. I've talked to play of my friends where they're like, their kids are not like they're not having relationships, they're just not.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Um, the the number of people that have the other issue we should discuss, and I'll throw it back to you, and this is connected, is uh people aren't mingling. They're not and they don't have friends. The number of people that say, I have no close friends is skyrocketed in modern society. Yeah, skyrocketed.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, and that's an interesting one because there were some recent studies now saying that people between the age of I think it's 25 and 40, right? So these are people who are at least out of post-secondary education and are really on their career path. It's like 75, you know, it's like people between the age of 25 and 40, it's like 75% of their meals are are alone at home, right? Which, I mean, look, I'm I'm a I'm a director at a company in this base program, right? Like it's it's it's something where where sometimes that just happens because of timing. But there is a lack of social interaction, which we're seeing now. And post-COVID, just people will say it's COVID. It's not COVID. COVID made it skyrocket, but it was already going up. That's the thing. But ultimately, it's like people are not socializing, right? And um, I wanted to touch base on something you were saying that relates to this, which was about like talking to your kids. Don't text them, don't talk to them while looking at your phone, talk to them. You know, growing up as a kid in the 90s and not getting, you know, growing up as a time in a time when we didn't have cell phones, right? You know, my dad would get home from work and we would have dinner and we would all be sitting at the table and we would talk, right? And my sister and I, we would talk to my dad about stuff, like just anything. And my dad was always keen to keep us up to date on what he did as a job. He worked in finance. Um, and uh my mother was a professional opera singer when I was a kid, and so she would talk, you know, she'd be talking about stuff like that too. But we also talked about our day and we talked about what was going on. And I would say I feel very lucky to grow up in these periods before cell phones because like Christmases, Thanksgivings, etc., like there were I remember there were no phones at the table, and it wasn't a rule, they didn't exist, right? We had no phones at the table and no devices, and the tell wasn't on. And the, you know, we I don't even remember that we played music, but we used to have these long dinners. And my grandmother, my father's mother, um, who passed away at 99, she would, she would just get us going and we would be laughing and talking. And there was this very social aspect to my family. Um, and we're a tiny family, like there's about a dozen of us total, including the extended ones, right? In the clan. And it was really interesting to think about reading this article about people having so many dinners alone. I mean, and also looking at it going, like, I think I might fall into that category too sometimes, but but there is a lack of social interaction that I think start it's actually starts in the home where you know, like, you know, sometimes I have I have friends who it's like, you know, they don't see their kid until dinner because their kid's in their room on their tablet or whichever, you know. Like, like I hate to be this guy. I feel like I'm gonna sound like old guy yelling at cloud, but it's like, whatever happened to bicycles, like I remember, but my bike was like, I remember when I got my bike, it had front suspension. It was I was so excited, and it was Royal Blue, and it was uh from Giant. And I remember thinking, like, this is my bike, I am I am ready. And I used to go off in like we used to go into the forest, and we'd be miles away from home. And I think, you know, the thing is, is that like, you know, nowadays, like, okay, I I scooters are a thing, great, at least they're outside, right? There's all this stuff that you can do outside now. But um, what was interesting was I was there's a there's a YouTube channel I watch called Retro Blasting, and they talk about stuff when we were kids. And retroblasting talks about the first Christmas when Nintendo came out. Because what used to happen is on Christmas morning, you'd get up at like God only knows what time, and you'd wake up your parents and open all their presents, they're like, oh my god. And then you would go out in the street and you'd be like talking about like what did you get? And if you got a new hockey stick, you'd be using it. If you got a new basketball, you'd like to play basketball, wherever you were. And I remember um Michael, the guy who hosts Retro Blasting, he said, he said, he talks about the very first Christmas where Nintendo came out because no one went to any, no one went outside. Everybody had a Nintendo, or they went to somebody's house that had a Nintendo. And I'm not trying to slam Nintendo, I'm not trying to slam anything like that, but it was an interesting situation where you realize there is this pivot from from going outside for social and being inside doing the activity, and um, you know, I think data technology today can be like that sometimes, right? So I urge all parents talk to your kids, make it social, create these social environments, you know, invite their friends over, and then you know, have them hang out with their friends at your house and talk. That's I think something that's very important.
SPEAKER_00Anyways, keep going. Right, yes. No, I'm listening. I just want to keep going down our list. Absolutely, absolutely. Let's keep moving. Uh, I'll do three at a time. I know it's a little confusing, but teach self-discipline early. Four. Yeah, encourage resilience through manageable hardship. That's a good one. Five. And then six, value truthfulness. So self-discipline, resilience through manageable hardship, yeah, and value truthfulness.
SPEAKER_01I would like to talk about the first one, actually, first.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so that's teach self-discipline early.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah. I I'm I'm not gonna reference everybody's day, but I I do love this really good kid psychology Instagram called Big Little Feelings. And it's a couple of child psychologists, and they just talk about ways that you can interact with your kid and how to do stuff. And one thing they talked about was by letting a kid feel like they have some ownership over the things they're doing, and it's simple things like picking your outfit for the day, right? So giving them the responsibility of brushing their teeth, giving them the responsibility of picking the outfit and getting dressed, giving them the responsibility of tying their own shoelaces, even, right? There's this there's this idea that I think you and I have talked about, but sometimes people really love having a bit of skin in the game, feeling like they own something, feeling like they own, have ownership that they can run with something. And I think this is one of those circumstances, right? So the self-discipline, I think, is one um that has done very well, where it's like, it's like, so you kind of say it like, so what are you gonna wear for school tomorrow, right? And then they start to go, oh, I guess I I guess I have to decide, right? And then it's like, oh, well, I can't wear that, that's dirty, right? Or whatever. And then they start to take that on. And um, it sounds small and tiny, but it's it's like there's an there's an old Navy SEAL commander video when he retires and he says, you know, make your bed every day, because then every day you get one thing done in the first five minutes of your being awake. And I feel like this is one of those things because every day you can be like, hey, great outfit, good job, right? Hey, you brush your teeth, good job. Now, it doesn't mean you have to be like that all the time, but it's like it starts to build this idea of like you gotta handle some stuff yourself. So, but you're an actual dad. I'd love to hear from you on this one because this is an this is an interesting thing.
SPEAKER_00Admiral McCraven is a great American, I have to say. I've remembered. Oh, that's right. Okay, I couldn't remember his name. A lot of mutual friends. Um, but I yeah, great, great American. And if you haven't, if you don't know the speech that Adam's referencing, you can just Google uh McCraven make your bed, and yeah, it's it's a good one. The whole speech is it's very stoic, actually, as as is common amongst uh US military folks. Um, so the one that I again I'll read it again, encourage resilience through manageable hardship. Obviously, I value truthfulness is good, but the manageable hardship, because you know, that might not be in every parent's list, right? Um, we we went from kind of the 70s, 80s version of parenthood, which was kind of, you know, generically speaking, was a little less detached or a little more detached, right? I think we overstate it. But you know, parents back then were like, at least that I remember, they didn't take their kids side every time. Like if an adult said, Hey, your kid was a rude, rude kid, they'd go. They'd immediately like you were guilty, right? At least my you're guilty. They'd go, I don't even call my kid rude or whatever they're accusing me of. Like they didn't immediately just defend me. They were like, Okay, tell me what he did. Okay, that sounds like him, and then I'm in trouble, right? So that was a different time. Now parents get all like, I dare you accuse my kid of this, that, and the other. I know. Um, it's like, well no, kids make mistakes, and this is how you fix it, right? Yeah, you you actually, as adults, you say, Hey, you don't talk to girls that way, or whatever the kid did, right? Um so but now parents seem to be just like, you know, I gotta they're they're like talk talking to people you're trying to get employed. You know, it's like, um, good lord, these kids, this guy's out of the house, he's got a college degree, and your mother's involved in your employment. So it's gone, it's kind of the pendulum, right? It never sits in the middle, it's always swinging. But on this side, I think, and this is uh something for parents to decide how to do, you gotta give them challenges, they gotta fail, kind of. And I don't mean fail like they have a chance to get hurt and all things like that, but like if they don't push things in a safe way to the point where they actually can fail and sometimes do, like they lose the game, they do, they don't, you know, land that ski jump or what have you, you're not setting them up for life because once they're out of your protective bubble, they're gonna fail. And somebody's gonna tell them they suck. Right? It's gonna happen in life. They're you know, and if you haven't like, and I don't mean that you tell them they suck, but you get my point. Maybe I shouldn't have used that. But I think somebody is gonna tell them they didn't meet the mark, and they need to have done it and you to tell them. And you know, one of the best things you could say is, hey son or daughter, I did it, I failed, and I got back up and I carried on, and you're gonna do things that you fail, and you're gonna get back up and you're gonna carry on. If you tell them that they never fail, or when somebody tells them they fail, that it's that person's issue, you are not doing them a favor in life. And I think that's what, and this is a again a guy that thousands of years ago is telling you manageable uh challenges that they're likely sometimes not gonna meet tomorrow.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And I think, you know, growing up as I did, playing sports, and I'm sure you played sports as a kid too. Like, you know, I was I was all the things you could think of as a Canadian, right? It was hockey, rugby, uh, volleyball, like we were usually big in those sports, and that's a thing that uh, you know, I I was always doing. I think um, you know, one big thing for certain though is this honesty around this stuff, right? Um, and there's a very important thing I think we have to say with this one. So be being honest with your kids, like, yeah, you lost. But the thing is, is that that A, don't be mean about it, obviously. But B, the other thing is is it's good to talk to kids about the idea that it you lost, but like you don't have to be ashamed about it. To quote Brene Brown, right? There's a chance, there's a turn, there's a time when things go wrong and you feel bad, where it's either gonna be like, okay, I feel bad, or it's gonna turn really south and you're gonna feel ashamed, like I screwed up, I'm a horrible person, I'm guilty of screwing whatever up, right? And I think it's really important to talk to kids about the fact that like it is just a game, it is just a whatever, right? And you're not a bad person because you failed. Say you that's why sports is so important. I think so. Yeah, like you're not a bad person because you lost or missed the kick or whatever or got a penalty, whatever. I mean, you know, unless the penalty is really egregious, but you know, at some point you go, you go, it's not you're not a bad person for that happening. You can do everything right and still lose. I'll quote Jean-Luc Bicard at that one. But ultimately, like I think that's something that you have to talk to kids about. Hardship will happen and you will make mistakes and you will get it really wrong. But you're not a bad human being for that. You're not a monster, you're not a you know, complete POS, right? Sometimes it just goes south. And you know, the real strong human beings are the ones who turn around and go, you know what? Yeah, kind of mess that up. I gotta take account for that, but I gotta do better next time. That's resilience, right?
SPEAKER_00That's what people remember, right? So yeah, if you uh a relatively modern day stoic, Theodore Roosevelt, one of his famous speeches is it's not the critic that counts, it's the man in the arena, right? And the whole point is like you have the guts to compete, you're gonna lose some. It's just gonna happen. Um, but it's it's it's much more noble, if you will, than those that never even try. And part of that means you gotta have teach kids that it's okay to fail. Right? Actually, if you look at at history, most of the people that have made the biggest significant impacts on positive have failed in their life. I mean, it's just it's just such a case. It's just if you're not if you're not getting to the point of failure, you're probably not pushing it in a good way. Fine line. Let me hit the yep, uh next one. Get a lot of Father's Day salutations from my kids and kids here. Gotta respond to all that. Gotta respond to all that. Um cultivate gratitude. That's an industrial one. Uh cultivate gratitude. Eight, develop good habits through daily practice. And nine, praise character and effort more than achievement.
SPEAKER_01I think cultivating gratitude is a big one today. Especially in the world that you and I live in. We're in we're in G7 nations, right? And our quality of life and the things that we have are extremely high. And I think it's easy for people to think that this is the norm. But out of the seven plus billion of us on the planet, or eight, whatever it is now, very few in relative speaking, relative terms, there's way more people who don't have stuff like we have, right? And I think gratitude is a really important thing. Gratitude from other people, gratitude for the situation around us, right? Um, you know, and I think that's really important. I think gratitude also breeds a positivity in many ways when you realize that it's not really as bad as we all think it is. But, anyways, that's my short one because we're coming up on time here.
SPEAKER_00But yes, that's a good point. I mean, you got the World Cup going on, and all these people are here in the US and they're just blown away in Canada, blown away by like the size of our grocery stores. You know what I mean? I know. Like, man, this is like the size of an airport. And the size of our highways, right? And it's I mean, that's it's funny, but it's like take stock, guys, because um that's not the case in many places of the world, they don't know where their next yeah is gonna come from. Uh yeah, I know we're running out of time, so let me make sure.
SPEAKER_01Well, look, why don't we um what why don't we do this? Because I think this is a very good conversation. And instead of rushing through, why don't we wrap up for today and we'll push into a third episode for this to make sure that we give everything its due. But I think um I really enjoyed today's conversation. I think it's great to frame these with the with the current the current things going on in kids' lives, but also to remember that, you know, so many of these points from 2000 plus years ago are relevant today. So, do you have any closing thoughts for us today, Mick?
SPEAKER_00No, I'm glad we're gonna do another topic, I mean another episode on this topic, because it is it is probably not only the biggest issue in society today, potentially it always has been, yeah, but the challenges are more significant. Uh, and it is probably the best way that we could instill the concepts at least of stoicism in the future. Yeah, right. You have an opportunity right there. This is a stoic list written by one of the uh more significant stoic philosophers in history that's relevant today just like it was back then.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Well, happy Father's Day, Mick. I hope you have a good day today. Cheers.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Puppin' Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for Stoicism, send it to us and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Today's music was provided by BenSound.com. Until next time, puppin' Porch out