Welcome to Pub and Porch, Applied Stoicism in Modern Life, hosted by Adam Pearcy and Mick Mulroy. Welcome back to Pub and Porch Applied Stoicism. I'm your host, Adam, with my co-host Mick Mulroy here. Today we are going to talk about something that's a mixture of traditional kind of stoic episodes, stoicism episodes about stuff from the past. And also something that I think Mick and I were both talking about is very prevalent today, especially today in the world of social media and things like that, which is um what to do, you know, if there's gossip spread around and how you handle it and whether or not you say something or not. Um and today that means that we're going to be talking about a th a topic called the three sieves of Socrates. That's one way you could call it. It's more sort of Socrates' rules about um our speech and preventing gossip and unneeded things like that. So um Mick, you brought up that this was something that you had added to our episode um topic list. So why don't you uh why don't you start us off with your first thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thanks, Adam. So I'm the three seeds of uh Socrates also uh sometimes called Socrates filters, right? That's right. That's right, that's right. I think it's something you should teach kids really early on. And one of the reasons is oftentimes people will share information without knowing it's true. Obviously, oftentimes it's negative because for whatever reason, negative rumors tend to go around faster than like, hey, did you hear Adam secretly volunteering at the soup kitchen? You know, it's it's not usually like the positive, right? Yeah, so um, and oftentimes people and maybe even honestly think, well, I I didn't know it was true, I just passed it on. I'm not saying it's true, right? And as if it uh take kind of takes away some of uh the guilt to it, right? Right. So the three to to start with the what they are, of course, for those that don't know. Um the first question, of course, is it true? And if you don't know it's true or not, that's where I think people get hooked up. If you don't know it's true, then don't repeat it. Right. Like if you don't actually have any independent knowledge that you can say confidently you believe it's true. You have to go through all the filters, of course, but to get the past the first one. Um, if you're like, I don't know, somebody told me a terrible thing about Fred. Do you have any idea if it's true? No, then why'd you tell Sally? Right? Right. Um that's where it stuck should stop. So if it's if you just don't know, then just stay out of it. Yeah. Just stay out of it. And I think you have a responsibility um to do that. And then the second one, of course, uh is it good? Is it you know, is it a positive thing? Generally speaking, I mean, if you're passing a rumor about that's positive about somebody that you believe is true, I mean, good for you. You should you should give friend or even non-friends uh accolades for doing true good stuff, right? But if it's negative, that's that's when you really gotta, that's when I think it the last one really has to matter a lot, which is is it helpful? So if you think it's true and you you know you're confident it's true, if it's not good, is it helpful? Like, yeah, um, I'm just coming up with an example, but you know that a person who I don't know does pet walking, uh has a history of stealing things out of uh the houses with the pets where she goes gets them, right? Right. Um you believe it's true, it is not good, but the question on the helpful is are you telling the person who's thinking about hiring that person as a pet walker? You see what I mean? So if you do those each time, I think you'll be not only way better off because ultimately it's not just the reputation of the person that you're potentially spreading a rumor about, it's your reputation. Yeah, it's your reputation. If you absolutely had misinformation or stuff you don't know, negative for no reason, right? Um, that's all on you. Yeah, and so it's not on the person, it's on you. And I think if people can learn that, I mean they should teach that early on in school and give real ironclad examples. Hopefully, mine or kind of uh made sense. Yeah, but I think kids need to learn that really early on. But think about all the issues that kids go through when they're growing up. Um it almost always revolves around this stuff, and now it's social media amplified, right? Yeah, so now a person puts something on social media that for some reason now has more authority because it's written and it's in some kind of um app, uh, it just gets worse, right? So I think that's that needs to be addressed early on, and it and and people need to understand that you're you're when you do those things, you pass false information that's bad, it makes you look bad because you're doing the wrong thing. And if you get that in your head early on, I think there'd be a lot less strife, to be frank, uh, for kids growing up and of course, you know, adults uh in um as well. So that's where I'd start with it. But do you have any examples or do you have any like life examples from this?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, um, you know, and if we if we sort of take them one at a time, right, and we talk about the truth one, do you know whether or not it's true, right? I mean, um, you know, especially nowadays, right? I mean, people there's a lot of stuff going out on the internet and whatnot for anybody nowadays, it feels like, or between friends, or that wild at wild, you know, stuff at wildfire that's uh that sort of spreads like wildfire. And that's the thing that kind of gets me right off the bat is where no one substantiated it, but now everybody knows about it, and no one's even taking a second to to fact check it, right? And um, you know, there was a period of my life about just over 10 years ago where um I had a significant life change, and um what ended up getting spread around was this idea that um it was all my fault, the change that had occurred. And this and it was uh it was a personal situation. And I was sitting there going, like, that that the only person who knows that that's true is is me or not, true or not. The only person who knows if that's true or not is me. And it was interesting to me that people who I had known for 10 or 15 years at that point, close friends who I'd been through difficult situations with in um terms of personal strife they'd gone through, support through, you know, happy times and sad times. And it was it was really interesting to me how quickly that traveled around. And none of them ever asked whether or not it was they never asked me whether or not it was true. They just basically said that was the case, right? Was that and then it kind of went, okay, so how does that even happen? And that so, you know, the thing is, is that um I would say in that circumstance, right? Not even like I if someone, if someone hears something about me and they want to talk to me about it and say, well, what's the deal? I stand up and say, Great, let's talk about it. Um, I'm trained both in my life and my work to look at things right in the face and call them out, right? And so when someone does that to me, I can say, okay, great, uh, let's talk about it, right? It's okay if someone says something and they're like, I'm not sure about this, right? That's that's that's different than saying, oh, well, Adam did this or Adam did that. And it's an interesting kind of thing because you know, I think everybody out there has to think about, you know, what are the effects of this if I don't know what's true? Will I lose this person who's been with me, like taking me to the hospital, help me move, right? Uh, plays with their kids. Like I'm a lot of people's Uncle Rocket, right? Because uh I don't have any kids of my own, as we were talking about in the series we just finished. And so that's that's a key thing for me, right? Just the fact that people just assume that it was true. And it's kind of like, how do you how does that happen when you've had this long relationship with someone? I think as well, though, right? Um, we were talking about this just before we started recording. I think you can even you can even flip these around about in some ways as to how what do you do if somebody is saying what do you like? So this is so I would never spread gossip because if if it's untrue. I mean, I don't like gossip anyways, but on the flip side, what if somebody's spreading something about you? And I I think stoics or Socrates would say something along the lines of, well, if it's untrue, then it will end up solving itself, anyways, right? If it's true, then everyone knows and it doesn't matter. If it's untrue, people will find out and it won't matter what was said before, anyways, right? And I think that that's kind of you know a way that someone could look at it in this circumstance. But yeah, that's the example I would use. I mean, I I'm being vague about the details because it's it's my own personal life, but ultimately, you know, that was something that happened, and it was very at the time disturbing, but also very much just it was a very destructive thing to not know what was true or not, right? I mean, um, and to have no one ask me, and you kind of go, that's odd. Why wouldn't somebody just say, like, what's the deal here? Especially when you've spent so much so so long in a deep friendship with somebody, but that's what happens, and that's life. So different different times.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it is it is different when it's about you, right? Um for most people it's hard to ignore because your reputation is in many ways everything. I mean, if you look at it look at it from the Stoics' perspective, like your reputation, although I guess we would look at it slightly different, but it is based on your character, right? Right. Whether you adhere to the four cardinal virtues. So if somebody's degrading your reputation on any of those, you would think that it would be something you need to address, right? Um, I think there's plenty in stoicism literature that would say it's not something you can control, it's not in your power, you should just ignore it. But then you could flip it around and say, Well, yeah, it is. You can actually address it and say it's not true, right? So that would be in your power. So I guess you have to make your own decision there. Um, what I've seen in the past is, you know, and this is mostly as as a child or young person, you know, somebody said you said something about somebody else, kind of thing. Like trying to cause strife between you and a friend of yours by another friend of yours or what have you. Yeah. I have found the fastest way, and I would and it is just to simply get all parties on the phone, or in person. In person, obviously, better, and just address it. Like, don't, don't, I'll talk to this person about that, I'll talk to this person about that, I'll tell you, you know what I mean? It's just like because most most people that like to spread rumors, um, they got they got some issues, and when confronted, um they shirk pretty quick. Yeah. Right. So if it's like somebody said that you said something about your friend Stan, uh, the somebody being Bob, and you and Stan and Bob, you just said, okay, that's cool, let's get together and have lunch. So in front of you, I'm telling you, I didn't say this, and you know I didn't say this. Right. And then all of a sudden it's just you see what I mean? It's because if you if you're the person that was told that somebody else said something bad about you and he's willing to come and with the other person and and and prove it, you kind of it cuts the chase. You get my point. So I would say sometimes just being direct about it uh is helpful. And then and I I would say if somebody attacks your character um falsely, I wouldn't turn the other cheek. Maybe that's not the right answer. I would I would address it specifically. I wouldn't spend a lot of time on it, but I mean, I would address it um to the people that matter and say, no, actually, I didn't do that. And yeah, I'm not gonna let my character get um, you know, dragged through the mud just because somebody else feels like it's uh, you know, for whatever reason, something good to do. So although I'd be so I'm what I'm saying is use the three sieves for any information, and when it comes to you, one, have a little bit of a thick skin, two, do it an assessment, actually, because maybe it's true.
SPEAKER_00I think I think you have to have humility to that. You have to have that kind of humility, totally.
SPEAKER_01You do, you know. If if somebody says something negative about you, you you need to have the ability to go, oh damn, I was rude. I shouldn't have said that, and then apologize. Yeah, that's the fastest way to repair your reputation if you did, if it's true, is to show humility. Yeah. But and then I guess this is mixed thieves now, right? So um one, just to ask yourself, is it true? Make amends and don't do it again. If it isn't true, I'd say defend yourself. I mean, not not not with counteraccusations and BS and stuff, but just the truth. If it's about your character, if it's about something that's kind of dumb, you know, don't don't you don't have to have any another, I think another good stoic principle is you don't have to have an opinion about everything. Right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01You don't have to jump in on Facebook and and and explain why you think you know a vaccine works or not if you're not a medical professional, for example. Like if you have no basis to know, um zip it. Uh and and and and enjoy the fact that you don't have to have an opinion on everything everything. It doesn't make you a better person to chime in when you don't actually have anything to contribute. That's probably another episode. But um those still my my my three sieves or two thieves after that is is it true? So make an assessment. If it is true, make an amends, if it is uh not true and it's about your character, be direct. So I guess it's I'm adding three more.
SPEAKER_00I think you have I think we have you have to look at it that way, though, because it it, you know, there's a people will talk about the stoic examples of like, you know, someone gets punched in the face and then they turn around and say, I don't remember what happened. It's fine, like move on. And that's a pretty extreme example. But in this example as well, I think it is important to talk about this because we especially in the world today, you know, it's very common for us to have have craw you know, cross paths with way more people than we ever did before, right? Like in the in the I was I was talking about this with a relative of mine recently about how the world is this huge place now. And but like so back in the let's say it's civ American Civil War period, right? Like your sons go off to war, there is no way that you know that where they are at any given time. You don't know whether they're alive or dead, as long as they're as soon as they're outside of your eyeshot, you don't know that you're there. So your world is very tiny, right? In the world today, you go on the internet and you are encountering literally, you could encounter all seven billion people or eight billion people on the globe, right? And so you just have to get used to the fact that like you're gonna encounter all these different people, and some of them won't check the truth, and some of them won't uh you know, ask the question about whether or not it's good or not. And so you kind of just have to, you know, I'm with you on the thick skin side, but addressing it as well, I think, is really important because also, you know, the way you address it, even is part of your brand, that's part of who you are, right? Um, and I think that's a really important thing to definitely maintain. You can't now remember Socrates or someone else would always say this like at some point you can't make somebody think a certain thing. So you could tell them the absolute truth that contradicts whatever's happened, and they could still disagree with you. But I mean, you know, that's just the way that it is. I think we should talk about the second one now, though, which is the the is goodness, the sieve of goodness. Is it good? Is it positive? Is it kind? And this I think is a tough one because a lot of people, a lot of people find out things are true, and then they're still stuck going, what do I do with this information? Right? So um, what's your initial thoughts on the goodness one? Because that's a that's there's a I feel like as stoics, you and I probably will have split opinions on this, maybe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I guess it you know, of course, it starts with how you define good. Um, but I think most people know what's a good rumor about somebody and a bad rumor. Um, and again, people generally don't spread rumors about good things.
SPEAKER_00I know it's so weird. It's so weird. Humans can be very out about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I mean, if it's true and it's good, yeah, I think it takes a whole different category, right? Because then you're promoting goodness by highlighting what somebody did. I suppose if they don't want to be known to be like some kind of hidden, um you know, benevolent person, it still could be considered bad to do, yeah, even though it's a good thing. So you have to think about it that way. But like good from that per I guess, so the good from that person's perspective. You see what I mean? Like say that they don't want to be known for the charitable work they're doing, they want it to be hidden, you know, like Jesus said, uh basically. Um just do it without the need for uh accolades. So then you might it it is good, you're doing better the person's doing good things, but they don't want to be known. So it's it's bad for you to spread it. You see what I mean? So it's it's from their perspective, not yours. Yes is the way it's and if it's bad, it really I mean, it really comes down to the third one. Like, yeah, is not passing the information more harmful? Right? And you know, sometimes it could be neutral, like you could you could like it isn't plus or negative, but it's bad. If it's if it's not a plus or negative and it's bad, just shut up. Just don't talk about it. It has to have a real purpose, like the one I use where you're concerned, like it was you, you're gonna hire a dog walker, and I know for a fact the person had stolen from somebody that they had done in the past. Like it would be harmful for me not to pass the information. You see what I mean? Yeah, so that's what I mean. You've got it really comes down to whether it's helpful. If it's not helpful, if it's just bad information or it's just bad stuff about a person, but it has no purpose. It's it's it's a lot of assessment that you have to do as a person.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and and I do think that you have to really look at it from that person's perspective, because that's it's you know, you're you're you're you and they're them, and they have their own view of the world. And if it's not a good thing from their perspective, then you don't get to decide it that it is.
SPEAKER_00Right. I'm with you on that one, and I and I think you know, there's definitely what I was saying about being a little split on this, right, is there's definitely this magnanimity part of um justice, the with the virtue of justice that we talk about and benevolence towards others. And I totally, I totally agree with that, frankly. I think I think in many cases, people I think, and we were just talking about this, right? Uh, humans always talk about the negative stuff, right? It's very rare for people to um start with the positives. Um, I something I do a lot of the time in terms of learning about groups that new groups that I encounter or new programs I'm on is to do something called a SWOT analysis, which stands for strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And the box that is the hardest for the team to fill in always is strengths, which I think is is a very human trait, right? And um, I remember there was a I think I can't remember who comes who said this, but it's like if you write it's it's a there's a parable about a school teacher who's writing the numbers one to a hundred on the board, and she intentionally messes up and goes and writes 98 twice, and then 99 100, right? And then and basically she was saying something to the class about see, you scored a 99 out of 100 on that, so that's like an A plus, right? You you it's a top mark, but the only thing people will remember is that weird one percent, you know what I mean? And sometimes the one percent of your actions is really bad, but at the same time, it's easy, it's easy to to to look. At this and say, you know, humans for some reason seem to pick on the negative stuff. I don't know why that is. And it's very and in the world of social media today, the negative, and sometimes rightly so, but sometimes wrongly so, the negative seems to be expanded in scope. It just increases by fact huge factors every time, right? You know, basically, you know, someone someone does something and it goes on social media and all of a sudden, you know, this person's being well the term that people use is cancelled. I'm not sure that I really like that term, but um it, you know, it's something that happens a lot today. So I do think that personally, I think we do need to be magnanimous when it comes to talking about these things that we that we talk about as human beings. But we have to be very careful to make sure that uh uh you know we're also not flipping it the other way and remembering only the one percent, I think it is. Um so then the the one that you were talking about, and I haven't really commented on too much yet, is the necessity part. And I think this is a really interesting one, right? Because the question about I I feel like there's a question about right and wrong about this that is kind of being asked by this sieve, which is um so so the the way that it's like the when I looked it up, the way that was framed is is it the sev of necessity, the sieve of assess necessity, excuse me, is is it essential or useful for me to know what you are so excited to tell me? Or for them to know what you're so excited to tell them. And for me, I mean, I this is one that I find um comes up a lot in some of the work that I do. Um I mentor a lot of people and I go and I do talks at um I work with groups um across, you know, engineering people across my professional organization and some other ones. And what's really interesting is is that people, people a lot of the time, right, they want your, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, they want your ref referral because they know that you're like a, you know, I'm a director on a, you know, in a company that works with the space program, right? So um there's some level of I think cloud is what people would think about it as. And so people will ask you, they'll be like, can I get a referral? But I don't know that person yet at all. I've met them one time for a five-minute conversation in a meeting. And I very commonly say to people like that, it's like, I don't think it's really useful for me to to talk about you to others right now. I don't know you. I it goes back to the first and second sieves. I don't know anything about you, so I have no truth about you, and I have no um, I I I want to be positive and kind, but at the same time, like I don't know how it's how useful it would be for me to help you right now because if anyone asks me how I know you, I'd say I've met you for five minutes at a networking event, right? Right. So, so you know, the you know, is it useful for people to hear from me on topics like this? I think so sometimes, depends, right? I provide I provide um re uh mentoring and references to lots of people. It's a very small, the the the engineering technology world in in on in uh in uh the Toronto area is very very small. But at the same time, you know, I have to ask, like, does someone need to know this from me or not? Am I the right person to give this information? Is it necessary that it comes from me? Sometimes the answer is no, right? And I think that's something that we kind of have to think about with the necessity part because it even though I had a great conversation with um uh I met a I met a I met a young woman at a at a at an event for women in um engineering recently, and I literally talked to her for five minutes and she asked me about giving her a referral um right off the bat. And I was like, I I I don't know that I know you enough to even do that. And I so I said to her in response, I said, I'd love to look at your resume. If you want to talk a little bit more, I'm happy to do that. But right, like I don't think a referral is right to come from me right now because I just don't I don't know enough of your history, I don't know anything, like we've never worked together, and so that's where I have to say, is it useful to come from me? And I say, No, it's not, because I I have no basis of fact to work off of, and I think that's um kind of one of those one of those kind of circumstances. So but yeah, so I think there's one other thing I kind of wanted to talk about with this topic, which was so Socrates' rule was it either passes all three sieves or you don't say it. And what what I found interesting with what you were saying was that it's it felt like you were kind of going, like you gotta hit at least a couple of them, but sometimes sometimes it's like you might be thinking that maybe Socrates is too strict, or what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01Well, he's talking, at least the way I learned it, he's talking specifically about rumors about others. Yeah, so I would agree with his three sieves for others. My only caveat, because you brought up the fact if it was about you, yeah, right. So I I and I think it's debatable from my reading of you know stoic literature, yeah, whether you should just ignore bad things said about you or whether you should defend it. And what I'm saying, um, at least the way I view it is if it's about your character, I mean there's you know, I have a lot of remote thing called slander per se, right? So if somebody says bad things about you, um, if it's about your occupation, it's about your marriage, uh, you know, your relationships, um, it's presumed to be harmful. That's what the per se part is. You see what I mean? Yeah, like they might be saying, oh, Adam sucks at basketball, and I'm not saying you do, or Mick sucks at basketball. I do, it's okay. You get my point. Um sorry, a long day. I was I was hiking out on the glacier yesterday with my friends. It's all right, a little tired. Um, but if it doesn't if it doesn't like go to your core being, at least the way the law in the United States looks at it, then it's in a different category. But if it's if it's things that anybody would say, Adam's a terrible engineer, right? Oh, yeah, wait, that's like your livelihood, dude. Right? Um or you know, Mick's doing something that he wasn't supposed to do in his relationship. Uh, that's matters, right? So what I'm saying is Socrates is talking about rumors about other people. I'm talking about stuff about you. If it doesn't matter, don't waste your time. But if it goes to your core character, then I think you should defend yourself. You don't have to, you don't have to like go beat somebody up or anything. I'm just saying you should state the truth. It's just not true. And if and if it's uh if it's something you can actually confront, I don't mean being confrontational, but just address trade up instead of you know in the shadows kind of thing, I'd recommend doing it. Uh I and that's what I tell my kids, right? Yeah. So um you have to make that those those are mixed, these uh filters, right? Yeah, yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00Mixed.
SPEAKER_01Is it in the true thing, it still kind of goes the same route, right? If it's true, hey, hey, you probably should correct yourself and apologize and just publicly do so. If it's not true, you should address it with the person and state the facts. Because I don't know, I think your character matters, and it's uh it's really at the end of the day, and this is very stoic, all that matters. It isn't about the size of your house or the you know the expense of your uh car or what have you, it's about your character. So I think you deserve to uh you know argue back on that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure. I think though, and you know, we've talked a lot, we mentioned social media here already. Social media came up quite a bit when we were doing our raising kids episodes, right? I think it's really important though to also recognize that um, you know, I I don't want to say it's like take one shot and then if it doesn't land with whoever it is, they're just never gonna change their mind. But like at some point, I think you know, you have to look at the situation and figure out whether or not you need to respond. And if you need to respond, I think that's great. But you know, in the world that um you and I are starting to exist in a little bit more. I mean, you you've been far more exposed to media because you you work with ABC and things like that. But ultimately, like you're gonna end up where you're gonna get a troll on the internet, right? It's gonna say some really nasty things about you, right? And I think so. I think you have to find out what's the right balance for you, right? If that person is saying and making accusations that are totally to the core of your character and harmful sort of defamation, I'm I'm I think I'm uh I'm with you on that one. You have to push back and say, look, this isn't right. You know what I mean? Like this is not okay. And the truth is is X, Y, Z or whatever it is. But at the same time, you know, I think there's an interesting thing we see with humans now where the anonymity of the internet makes it so that they can just people can say whatever they want, and it feels like there's no consequences. And I'm not saying that they should have no consequences or not. It's just at some point, it's a faceless handle at username generic one, three, five, seven, right? Saying whatever about you, like what does it matter? Half the time it feels like it's bots nowadays, right? Like we're hearing so many statistics about the fact that most of the internet is bots, right? It's like okay, great.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so you want to-because then it becomes so irrelevant that yeah, it's not worth your time. You know, one of the reasons why that is the case is they, at least in the United States, they give immunity to these companies. Yeah, right, so that somebody can get on their platform and just say terrible things that are untrue about other people, and there's no oh you can still sue that person, but you can't sue the company that gave them the platform to spread it to everybody, right? And that needs to change, right? That not that wasn't the case, it was just for the social media companies.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's always a is it um which one is freedom of speech? Is it first amendment? No, yes, yeah, first amendment. First amendment, yeah. Yeah, freedom of speech, it's first amendment, right? For us, if it's if it if it limits us in Canada for that, we would call that uh we were talking about this recently, we would call that a charter charter rights issue, right? Um uh which is our our our four our sort of bill of rights um document. You know, and it's important to know that that's a thing that we probably do, you know, as a society have to address. I mean, at some point, in the same way that we're asking people, like if you hear a rumor, you need to assess yourself. I feel like there's a flip to that too, towards the greater society about like when certain things like this happen, right? When people, when people can get defamed and slandered and there can be libelous everything all over the internet or whatever, and it just doesn't matter, right? It's like people are like, well, anybody can say whatever they want, and maybe that is true. Uh, you know, I think you have to ask yourselves as a society like, are we championing the right course of action here? Because it's not good, like, because there's there's good discourse when two people disagree. As much as you and I keep saying it, we as much as you and I do agree, we do disagree on certain things, I'm sure. But at the same time, we can talk about it. And we've talked about this on the uh on the podcast before, right? Like, rumor is not discourse, rumor is not conversation, it's not talking it out, it's not finding the right solution with uh your peers, your colleagues, your coworkers, your family, your friends, whatever. Rumor is just that, right? And it carries such a negative connotation. So I would hope that maybe one day we, as a people, right, can figure it. Because uh Canada and the US are so closely tied together in many ways, right? It's like, you know, what happens in the you know, something I keep I get news about places all over the US, and uh, and uh so it's pretty, you know, it's a pretty normal thing that I see all the time. But at some point, like I was saying, you need to figure out as a society like, are you gonna champion the rumors or are you gonna champion like ethical, moral treatment of others and you know, factual discourse and actual discourse, right?
SPEAKER_01And I don't know, it's sometimes it feels like we're not championing that right now, but you and I you and I are trying to change that a little bit because so much of what we're talking about is also tied to to pull politics, it is which seems to be imperviating every aspect of life now, uh and so much of politics is not about the promotion of ideas uh over other ideas, it's actually attacking other people and making it a character issue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I said this on an early episode we had where at some point I think I just got a little frustrated with when we were not with you, but with we were talking about political candidates, and it's like I'm tired of everyone saying, Well, he doesn't do that, and or she doesn't do that, or they don't do that, or whatever. And I'm always like, tell me what you're gonna do. What's your platform? Right, which is you know, because otherwise it's just hearsay and happenstance, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so that's what we're getting very used to. That um not not that we should, right? But um there's no real easy answer to that because it seems to be going all in the wrong direction. You know, my answer is uh, which doesn't solve the problem necessarily, but you know, you you can do what you can do is to try to have a whole new generation of people who are raised on virtue ethics, yeah. Right? Um kind of that core educational foundation is to my understanding, is not present. It used to be very, very common where kids would learn virtue ethics through philosophy, of course, because that's where it comes from. Um but now you know there's so many competing things that they that adults think kids should know that they've kind of lost that. You know, that's one you know, I'm I'm uh you know, come from an Irish Catholic family, at least historically, right? So the uh the Irish were really good about teaching uh philosophy, Irish American. I'm sure the Irish do. Um because it was such a classical foundational education for uh a Catholic school, for example. Uh so hopefully it stays that way and it hopefully it expands beyond um you know just that type of school system. It goes back into the public school system. Yeah, you know, it's not really you're not teaching religion, right? It's a philosophy. So you can be whatever religion or no religion and still learn the different types of you know, Aristotelian virtue ethics, stoicism, uh other philosophies, right? It's not all about Western philosophy, but yeah, kids need to have that foundation of ethics, morality, and integrity. Yeah, because just because you're a smart person doesn't make you a good person, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And the natural extension of those, I think, whether it's stoic virtues or cardinal virtues from in some other form, so many of them overlap with each other. You know, I think I think that it it it overlaps heavily with what we're talking about today, right? I mean, there's a very clear passage from Meditations with Marcus where he says, if it is not right, do not do it. If it is not true, do not say it. I might have flipped it, but he literally says that, period.
SPEAKER_01That's yeah, you flipped it, but you get you're right. That's and that's yeah, you you probably could sum up our entire episode by just doing that something up, right? Um yeah, Marcus was very uh laconic in his speech there, but that's uh that's very true. I mean, if yeah, you gotta you gotta hold yourself to the standard. The other issue is it's tough to be that person in a world that's not. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's it's not an easy path. I mean, plenty of people like to spread rumors, they just do for whatever reason. You gotta be bigger than that, and you gotta teach your kids to be bigger than that, and eventually, and eventually, people, even the people that like spreading rumors, I think not that you should care that much, but I think they would respect you for it. It's like, hey, um, that person never says anything bad about anybody else, right? Right? You want to be that person and never talk about a person that's not in a room.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's a little yeah, it doesn't really make sense. So it's unless you're saying good things. Unless you're saying good things and then it's uh say as much as you like, yeah. And I forgot, you know, I was gonna tell a quick story and I forgot about saying it earlier, but we were talking about um you know being a good person and saying this, and and you know, it it can actually show stuff. So my my grandfather, who he passed away um a couple of years ago now, Newfoundlander, um, was born in Newfoundland before it was a Canadian province, so he had to immigrate to Canada. Right. Um he used to he used to um watch the news and read the newspaper, and uh he was a very chatty man. And he used to he used to say, he who lives in a glasshouse can't hide. He used to say that all the time. He would watch, watch. I don't know if you've ever heard that phrase before, but he used to say that all the time. And um, like at the point, like we'd watch the he loved he loved uh there's a channel in Toronto called CP24, which is a 24-hour news channel. It's got like rolling, rolling stuff and weather and all this stuff. It's a very busy screen when you're watching it, and it's it's uh it was always on with him uh, you know, throughout parts of the day. And he'd hear, like, you know, a so-and-so, you know, city counselor said blah blah blah. And then he would just go, he who lives in a glass house can't hide. And then he'd like just walk out of the room. All right, all right. And I remember thinking, it's not a bad, it's not a bad takeaway from him. So, but uh yeah, my grandfather used that one. I'll use that's a good one. Yeah. Well, we should wrap up here. Um, but uh, you know, one thing I think that would be this is definitely a topic that you know we'd love to hear from every everybody about. I know I always say that, but I mean these practicum episodes are the ones that make and I um, you know, that's the applied part of uh of uh the podcast, really, and we definitely like that. So, you know, we'd love to hear from you by commenting on the video and uh you know, write us info at pubandporch.com. Also, um, we're uh we have some new initiatives starting up. I'm just gonna kind of hint at that. We have some new initiatives as pub and porch starting up on uh on the interwebs. So uh keep an eye out for those things as they start to come out. But uh yeah, I think uh that's it for us today, and we will see you on the next one. Cheers, Meg.
SPEAKER_01Slaunch at you for listening to the Pupin Porch Podcast. If you'd like to find out more about the podcast or its host, head over to puppinporch.com and you can listen to all our episodes on Spotify, Apple, or whichever platform you prefer. And if you'd like to help out with the podcast, you can find us on Patreon. Drop us an email if you have a comment on any past episode, you have a suggestion for future episodes, or you have an essay on an important topic for stoicism, send it to us, and then we can be reached at info at puppinporch.com. Until next time, puppin' porch out.
SPEAKER_00Today's music is provided by Heath Cantu from epidemicsound.com.