BONUS #1: Workplace Geeks x Workplace Leaders Top 50 2026

Recorded live at The Workplace Event | The Facilities Event 2026 at the NEC, this special episode is part of the Audiem podcast, Workplace Geeks x Workplace Leaders Top 50 2026 mini-series, sponsored by Rhino Interiors Group.

What do a Pontins Blue Coat, a post room assistant, a receptionist, and a business studies graduate have in common? They all went on to help shape the future of workplace.

In this live recording, Workplace Geeks brings together five conversations with members of the Workplace Leaders Top 50 2026, exploring how career journeys, leadership thinking, and workplace strategy are evolving in real time.

Across the episode, they discuss:

•  “Magnets not mandates” and what actually drives office attendance 
•  The shift from workplace management to workplace experience 
•  AI and the rise of proactive, predictive workplace design 
•  Culture, talent and the changing expectations of employees 
•  How early career roles shape senior workplace leaders 

Featuring:

•  Joe Harris, HubStar 
•  Sarah Tait, Lloyds Banking Group 
•  Chloe Baum, LinkedIn 
•  Sam Wharton, Pinterest 
•  Kathryn Horton, OCS 

Whether you work in workplace, facilities, people experience or leadership, this episode explores one core question:

How do we create workplaces where people can do their best work?

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

This episode is brought to you in partnership with Rhino Interiors Group. Rhino create workplaces that connect spaces with performance, helping organizations deliver environments where people can do their best work. To find out more, visit rhinooffice.co.uk. Hello and welcome to Workplace Geeks, the podcast from Audium exploring the people, ideas, and experiences shaping the world of work. I'm your host, Chris Moriarty, and today we've got a little bonus episode for you as we get ready for series five of the show. Now, for the last few years, we've partnered with the organizers of the Workplace and Facilities event at the NEC, where they unveil their annual Workplace Leaders Top 50, a celebration of the people helping to shape this industry and push it forward. And as part of that partnership, we get the chance to sit down with some of the names on the list to hear a bit more about their story, their career path, and what's actually happening out there in the workplace world right now. Now, normally we record these chats online, but every year we also head to the event itself, hang around the show floor, drag people into the booth kindly provided by Mako Commercial Interiors, stick a microphone in front of them, and see where the conversation goes. And this year we managed to catch up with five of those workplace leaders, and we've packaged them all together for you right here. So let's get straight into it with our first guest, the amazing friend of the show, Joe Harris from HubStar. Welcome to the event pod for the Workplace Geeks. Um before we get going, just tell us who you are and what you do. Yeah, thanks so much, Chris.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

I'm Joe Harris, the commercial director at Hubstar. And my role is really working with workplace leaders to understand how their space is being occupied and suggest strategies for them to optimize going forwards, whether that's improving employee experience or cutting the cost of the estate they have.

SPEAKER_03 2:01

And just to explain what HubStar does, if anyone's not heard of Hubstar and what the company does.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Yes, we're a UK-founded company, uh, but we've got presence in the US, Canada, and Australia, and we are solving three key problems. The first is around how do we uh place people amongst their colleagues so that their time in the office has uh intent and purpose and to improve that experience. The second part is how could we capture signals in the building, whether that's badge or wi-fi, possibly sensors, to understand how that building is being occupied. And thirdly, how could we position the space planning side so that we can optimize the square footage that we have, uh either reducing the square footage if there's an opportunity to, or perhaps suggest a better way of restacking and modelling that floor plan.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

And the key question is, Joe, how did you get here? Now I don't mean today, I don't mean I don't need to know what train you got up this morning, but how did you get into that role at Hubstar? What's the what's the big career journey been like?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

I was still at university in Bournemouth on a Friday, and I was offered a job to work for a very small boutique room booking system provider like 18 years ago. Wow. Company called Datacraft, and they were one of the first companies that replaced these big paper sheets that receptionists had. So my first day on the job was learning this paper sheet, what all the colours meant, what the TIPEX meant, you know, who was having what rooms, and that's what we were trying to replace with a computerized system. So I thought I'll do that for six months and I'll get a proper job. And I'm now here 18 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Still talking about talking about room booking. But how did it what was the context for that offer? What you know, so you're at the university, what were you studying?

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I was just doing business studies in German at the time. Um German. Do you speak German? A little bit.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

So you've got to say that bit in German, surely.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

So I was I was working in Germany at the time for IBM uh in sales and marketing. So I I kind of thought I would be working in Germany uh for a big software company, but that never happened. Uh so it was about 10 years learning German, a year studying it, writing a dissertation, 16,000 words, and I can barely order a beer now, so it's all time well spent.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

So um so they offered you that role. And have you have you sort of deviated from this world? It's just been sort of occupancy building software, building management software. Has that kind of been the the story?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I spent 12 years with Datacraft, which became Manhattan Software. So through that acquisition, that then expanded me out into IWMS. So that brought me up into space management, a bit of lease management, portfolio management, understanding total cost of ownership, and really kind of getting up to that strategic level of you know, how do we manage a multi-million pound estate? Uh then I joined Matrix Booking, which was a small startup just before COVID. Every time that the government would announce the relax of the lockdown, then you'd see a flood of inquiries and orders come through. Wow. Because what you'd have to do is to have the spacing, so the obviously the two-meter distancing, and you have to know who the bookings were for track and trace, so that if there was an infection, you could then go back in time. So it was a fascinating period. And and for the vendor I was working for at the time and all the other vendors in the industry, we were on the forefront of uh really opening up the offices, and then when the lockdowns went back again, then obviously everyone thing would close, and then it would repeat cycle upon cycle.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Yeah, because that that big sheet with tip ex and post-it notes wasn't good enough. No.

unknown 5:31

COVID management.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

So talk to me a little bit about how you see the the industry at the minute. And we're gonna look at that in two ways. We're gonna look at challenges, we're gonna look at opportunities. Before we get into that, and I think part of the reason you're on this list is you're kind of prolific on LinkedIn for sharing your views. Before we get into what you think the actual challenges are, just talk to me about that kind of LinkedIn activity without you know without revealing too much uh behind the curtain, because I'm sure there's you know there's lots of magic that happens behind the curtain. But what kind of got you into that? Because you are, I mean, it looks like you enjoy it. Like, I don't it's sometimes you see people kind of forcing this thing. Actually, I genuinely think you like kind of sharing your thoughts and seeing what people think. So just talk to me a little bit about how that's kind of happened and and what sort of engagement you see with it.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I I I've always been, I suppose, on LinkedIn for a number of years, but always been quite passive. So using it more as a learning tool, seeing what people are seeing and thinking and talking about. And it was when I joined Hubstart at the beginning of last year, I made a commitment to myself to try to post every single day. Uh, to really put myself in that uncomfortable position because I'm naturally quite a reserved person, and so for me to put myself out in front like that was really uncomfortable. So I thought, well, let's just push in and let's try to think of new ideas every day. I think it was Stephen Bartlett that that um said that he tried to do that with Twitter, he posted every day, and so you're constantly thinking about what I could publish, what could I share?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

So, with that, then let's let's imagine we're going to be talking about LinkedIn posts tomorrow. Um, what do you think the big challenges are facing workplace leaders at the minute?

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Yeah, so uh when I first started that journey, it was for me about shining a spotlight on something. Yeah. And so very early on, um, there was the big debate around mandates and how personally and professionally I felt like that was quite a jarring experience, I think, for a lot of organisations and employees that were at the tail end of that. So I kind of had this strapline of hashtag magnets not mandates as the first topic. I thought, well, this is something I passionately believe in, but I need to convince everyone that you know there is a better way as opposed to doing a three or four, even a five-day mandate. And so some of the posts that that did very well was like Jamie Diamond having his infamous rant around, you know, homeworking is um a waste of time. If you're not in the office, you don't exist. And he gave his very strong statements around for him in investment banking, he wants everyone aligned by the front office, he wants people to talk to at the speed of speech, he doesn't want Zoom calls. Um he felt that homeworking was a distraction. Whereas I felt that what you're missing there is the flexibility and the ability to attract talent, particularly for young families. And I've been very vocal about um you know my experience as a young father being more present for my children at the same time as being fully in in London when you're there, you're in the office, you're meeting people, and you're having that that real interaction, but then coming back, you've got the time, the peace and quiet to get on with your focused work. And so for me, activity-based working concepts are fully in line with flexible hybrid working, and it's a win-win for the employer, the employee, uh, everyone involved really.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

So, if that's the challenge, then what do you think the opportunity is then? You know, what you know, whether it's related to that or what could workplace leaders be going, do you know what let's grab grab this and let's really drive this? What do you think the big opportunity is in the next year, two years?

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Yeah, I think there's in the corporate space great opportunities to establish what the culture means for the organization and use the workplace as a real advertisement for who we are. So if that's being hybrid friendly, that's a very positive stance to put out there. That's going to allow you to attract the best talent from wherever wherever that is. Uh, I see huge opportunities, but also challenges in the higher education sector as well. I think a lot of the universities have been in this mantra of they'll just build new buildings. Um, and that time is now over, so they're now having to be more sustainable on a cost and environmental perspective. So they've got this abundance of assets that they know are underutilised, but they need the data to prove out where they can make the cuts in the savings. Likewise for NHS, huge cost pressures there. Uh they've really embraced flexible and hybrid working as a way of giving back to their back office admin teams. But under the cost pressures, they're really under pressure to reduce their total cost of ownership. So for them, there's a real drastic amount of cutting of this admin office space in an NHS.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Because it sounds like what you're talking about is like a kind of a the very the levers here is kind of like a space, a cost, an experience. And going, right, how do we how can we balance those out? So last last question, and actually maybe we'll use the mental image of you know a young Joe, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, like 18 years old, about to get this uh job offer for deskbooking. What advice would you give yourself? And what advice would you give people that you know might want to be on the list in the future that want to sort of demonstrate sort of leadership in the industry?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, I think it's first of all being confident in your own beliefs and convictions. Uh, if you real feel something in your gut, then you should listen to that. And also be brave about speaking up. I think that more often when you're in the corporate world, you feel like, well, people might challenge my opinion or they might say something that contradicts that, and that's absolutely fine. You should be brave about believing in what you believe in in that sense. Have those convictions and carry those forward. And particularly if you are perhaps shy or reserved as I was in when I was first started my career. I still remember the first time I tried to present to 12 people in a meeting room. I I choked and couldn't speak, and uh the meeting was over in 20 minutes. And so it took me a long time to learn how to even address people formally in a room and you know work on having that kind of confidence. So for sure, kind of focus on you know, you know your your your art, you know your skills. People want to hear what you have to say. You just have to open up in that way and be brave and have that confidence.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Love Joe. He's great on LinkedIn as well, by the way. So do uh look him up. Now, an extraordinary conversation next with the Workplace Livewire that is Sarah Tate. I've seen Sarah speak a couple of times now, and I've always thought she had stacks of energy, but in this chat, she reveals how the early part of her career might have had a role in that. Welcome to the Workplace Geeks booth. Um before we get into it, just tell us who you are and what work you do.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I am Sarah Tate, and I am a senior workplace experience lead at Lloyd's Banking Group.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

So, how did Sarah Tate became the uh workplace experience lead at uh Lloyd's Banking Group?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Oh, how far do you want to go back?

SPEAKER_03 12:21

I mean, were you always in the sector, or did you?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

No, no, let's go back to the beginning then. I didn't go to university, instead, I did something a little bit different. Yeah, and I worked at Pontins as a blue coat.

SPEAKER_06 12:32

You were a blue coat.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

I was a blue coat. That's amazing. It was amazing. It was incredible.

SPEAKER_03 12:38

I mean, we could do a whole episode just on stories from Pontins, we could. We definitely could. So how long were you is that out of out of school, out of college?

SPEAKER_00 12:44

So straight out of sixth form, straight into um being a blue coat, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Where was that? Which one?

SPEAKER_00 12:49

It was Pakefield in Lower Stoff.

unknown 12:51

Oh, I have no.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

So um Suffolk.

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Okay, cool. So roughly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

So I'm Essex, it was Suffolk. So first time I moved out, I moved away from home. It was my version of uni, but I didn't have the debt coming out of uni. Yeah, and I had the life experience and met some incredible people, and it's such good grounding. Yeah, bet.

SPEAKER_03 13:12

And also like dealing with the public, right? I mean, which is, I guess, for the kind of like the general pub population, it's quite a good experience for them having to deal with employees and lots of things.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

Definitely, and really great for networking and public speaking because you're on a stage, you're forced to go and sit with a family to make their holiday for them. So I guess experience was like always in me, but I just didn't realise.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

That's really so so right. So then now, right now, my mental image is like, how do we? It's like you know, these sort of um connections quizzes where you're like, How do you get from Pontin's blue coat to Lloyd Banking Group Workplace Experience?

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So I then decided to leave Pontins to follow love. Um and then I was like, right, I should probably get a real job now.

SPEAKER_06 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Um so started working for Ticketmaster, doing group sales in London, was having to commute for that, and then thought, don't really want to do much commuting, I want to just spend a bit more time closer to home for a while, having been away, and thought I would apply for the local bank that I worked that was in the town, uh, which was Lloyd's Bank. Oh wow. They only offered me an interview because I had Pontins on my CV. Is that right? Yeah. But they thought it was going to be a bit of a joke. So and then all-so the bank look at this.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Oh my god, let's get a blue coat in there.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I had no idea what to expect. So I turned up and was like, I can do this, I can do that. Um, and they put me into a branch that they said is one of those branches that you'll either sink or swim. So that was uh 15 years ago that I started working for Lloyd's Bank on the High Street, and then I moved from there into various different management roles within the branch network. Then I moved from branch network into a team called branch propositions within that branch. It was in Clapham, it was the first digital concept branch. So I then took that proposition and started rolling that out to other locations. So that was my first head office role out of the branch network. Um, and then from there I moved across into HR. So I was working in like a people propositions team where we were looking at things like performance management. Um, we looked at something called behavioral experiments, like how do you get people to really adopt change management? Oh wow, and then um various other roles within that. And then um I actually ended up having six months off of work where I was mentally unwell, so I had like a mental breakdown. And then when I came back, I was put on the well-being journey to support with that. So I've kind of always been one of those people that's used their experiences to help shape things throughout my career, and then they were setting up a brand new property team, and the director that was setting that up, I'd worked really closely with, and I went over and did a bit of an EA role for her, and I thought I won't stay in property, it's probably not for me. And then I was in it, and I was like, this is great. Yeah it was so tangible. Like, I loved the idea of being able to see the direct impact of what I'd done. So absolutely loved it. Done a number of different roles within property, so um, some project management, strategy, engagement, comms, and then my most recent role before this one was looking after workplace adoption. So taking all of that and how we build communities, started to really build out an events proposition to get people using the offices more, and that then there was a restructure, and I moved into the workplace experience team as part of that restructure, took all of that knowledge with me, and now what I look after in my remit of the senior workplace experience lead role is end-to-end event management across the whole group, community events, which is putting on events for our colleagues to bring them closer together, really foster that sense of belonging, communications and campaigns. So, how do we, from a workplace perspective, and then also end-to-end workplace colleague experience? So taking the journeys that we use across our estate and really mapping those out and understanding where are those touch points, and also how can we continuously improve it?

SPEAKER_03 17:07

So, uh, let's think about what you know, your peers. Uh, you know, you uh you're on panel discussions a lot of the time, you sort of mix with people that are doing similar roles as as you. What do you think the big challenges are for the workplace leaders at the moment? And there's lots of change, the landscape's completely different 10 years ago. But what are the big challenges? What's kind of front of mind for you at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Yeah, I mean, some of the things we were talking about on the panel earlier around how do we create those really connected journeys and how do we create that connected experience? It's like we've got all of these different things that you can do in the workplace. So you can book a desk, you can go and get a coffee, you can log a property fault. But it's like, how do we bring all of that together and create a more seamless experience? So that for me is probably the thing at the moment that feels still really fragmented, and it's like, how do we create that real consistency across all of the touch points that we've got within the workplace so that it makes it really easy for colleagues? We don't want to be making their roles harder by adding extra complexity into what they do. We want to be able to make their jobs as easy as possible within the workplace so they can concentrate on serving our customers.

SPEAKER_06 18:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

No, do you want we we've just done some audio data where we looked at desk booking, for instance, or what are the big challenges? And one of the sort of bits that came up, one of the topics that came up, was about why can't the desk booking just talk to the parking? If I'm booking a desk, the chances are that I need to book a parking space as well. And it kind of got me into this thing now, it's like the appification of everything. Oh, you want a locker? Here's an app for the lockers, here's an app. And you get to a point. I mean, it's it's a bit like our consumer life, right? Where you go, which car park am I in? Which one which operate is this? And it's friction points. And I guess so. I guess that's what you're talking about. Is that how do we just make it dead easy? So do you see that kind of change and do you see that getting better?

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Yeah, we're looking at that at the moment. So I think just going back to your point around that like car parking analogy, it's almost like we want to think about what it is that the colleagues need before they've even thought about it. And we want to be able to predict what it is that they want and then be able to give it to them without them even having to think about it.

SPEAKER_06 19:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

So, what we're looking at at the moment, and we're still a few years away from this because we're looking at building out the infrastructure underneath, but how can we bring that all together so that utopia would be, Sarah? I've seen that you've booked in your diary, you've got a meeting in your diary where you're traveling to Leeds. You normally travel to Leeds with Chris. I've booked you both this train, because this is the one you normally get. When you get to Leeds, I've booked you a desk. I know that this is the kind of place that you like sit in near a near a window, near the refreshment areas. And on top of that, I've pre-ordered your matcha so it'll be there when you arrive. Like, and then I don't have to think about any of that.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

It's possible, right? Of course it is. So if that's the challenge, then what's the opportunities for workplace folk at the minute? What you know, what could we be doing, should we be doing, and what opportunities exist out there?

SPEAKER_00 20:06

I think one of the other things that we spoke about on the panel that I was on earlier is around how that you collaborate internally within the organization. The employer doesn't care whether you're in workplace, whether you're in culture, whether you're in HR. They don't care. They just want to be able to get what it is that they need done so that they can do their best work. So that collaboration, and we were it was interesting because I I hadn't realized that we were the only organization on the panel today that has people and places in the same department.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

So, and we that happened seven-ish years ago around that time. I was saying when we set out.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

I mean, I it's quite a progressive thing, but that's quite early, like kind of pumped on that model.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

And I think even it's taken us probably until the last few years for that to fully formalise so that we're like all moving in the same direction. So I think that that is such a huge opportunity, like bringing people and places together because a place is a sum of our people. In the last couple of years, our sense of enjoyment at work and our sense of belonging has increased by over 10%. And then our MPS of when colleagues say I would recommend working at Lloyd's Banking Group to a friend or family member has increased by 20 points. I mean, that's huge. And I don't know if you've seen, but we've just been placed on the um UK LinkedIn top companies. Oh, have you right? Yeah, we're eight and with a top bank.

SPEAKER_03 21:29

And that's lovely when you can then start to really demonstrate the workplace impact on stuff outside of the workplace measurement. Definitely. You're sitting there going, this is making a difference.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Definitely.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

So uh so if there's a blue coat right now sitting there going, one day I won't be singing songs to like at like poorly attentive six year olds or dressing up as a monkey. Yeah, like doing drawing the short straws like oh, it's me today. Uh and they're saying, I could have a career in workplace. What would your advice be to the next the next bad? The next generation of workplace leaders.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

I I think it would be to follow the doors that are open for you because they're open for a reason. Even if you just step in them to see what it's about and think maybe this isn't aligned to what it is that I want to be doing. But take every opportunity because you just don't know what skills that you're building to be able to take you to the place that ultimately you're meant to be.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

From blue coat to workplace leader, I think it's fair to say that this industry really does have so many entry points, which I think is a bit of a theme in this episode. Now, we were talking about LinkedIn earlier with Joe, so it feels like a nice segue to catch up with Chloe, a workplace leader at LinkedIn. Now, this one has a proper global feel to it. So let's dive straight in to hear from Chloe. Welcome to the Workplace Geek Booth.

SPEAKER_05 22:59

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

Let's start off. Give us your name, your role, your organisation. Tell us a bit about who you are.

SPEAKER_05 23:04

Okay, so I am Chloe Bohm. I'm the director of Workplace PMO at a very small startup called LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

I hear they're going to do very well.

SPEAKER_05 23:12

I hope so. Yeah, I've got a little bit of stock. Um so part of that role is helping the workplace team stay connected to each other, talking to each other, um, following some governance principles. Oh nice.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

So help us understand how you end up there. Because, like, you know, there's lots of organizations, there's lots of roles, but there's there's like a handful that you just say the name and everyone knows what it is, and LinkedIn's definitely one of those. So, what is it, you know, A sort of reflected on a little bit of like, you know, what it's like to be in an organisation like that. A lot of attention, a lot of, you know, sort of request to come and share your thinking. But how do you end up there? You know, what was that kind of journey like? I suspect, like most people do this interview, there wasn't a straight line.

SPEAKER_05 23:55

Definitely not, no. Um, so I started out as a receptionist working for my uncle's solicitor's firm.

SPEAKER_06 24:02

Wow, okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:03

Straight from school, uh, didn't go the traditional university route, um, just needed a bit of extra money, ended up there after doing some weekend filing work. Uh so then uh started off a temp job at Diagio, and from there I was in FM, so I was working on reception, did a brief stint covering um PA for the facilities director, went back to reception, ended up working on their innovation side, uh, managing the the site, got outsourced as you do. That's that's your life in FM, but there's always a risk or opportunity, and I saw it as an opportunity, went online to the Diasio website and found what I believed was my dream job at Diasio working in Singapore. Um yes, so I then applied for the job, didn't expect to get it. Six weeks later, there I was on a plane on my way to Singapore.

unknown 24:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 24:59

Uh, eventually joined a project there, so a couple of years later to roll out um Service Now and uh run a change management programme, knowing that at the end my facilities role wasn't going to exist. Um started networking like crazy, going to every corner if more event possible, uh talking to everyone I possibly could, and eventually LinkedIn reached out to me and said, We've got an opportunity for a site manager position for the Singapore office, love to chat. Oh turned out someone I'd interviewed with was the hiring manager and said, That's like we need that person.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

I think one of the charms of the profession is that it's got all these multiple entry points. Yes, there's no single entry point. You can come into any one of those kind of service nodes, and yours is perception, and actually, you know, you go, you can sort of see that line. It's not a straight line, like I say, but you end up in a role with a global brand. But what I love about that, I think I guess I'd sort of get the sense of your personality there, is that that kind of relentless networking, that seems like it was a really a conscious choice, but a really important one.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

Definitely, and and I think the the difficult point for me was I've been in Singapore two years, or just over two years, and if you don't have a job, you you have to leave the country.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

So I had sharpened focus.

SPEAKER_05 26:24

Um and it was right, I've got two options. I either go, thank you very much, it's been two years, what a great experience, yeah, or I give it absolutely everything I possibly have. Yeah, yeah. Have a plan to live off sofas uh for friends, because like back then no one had a spare room, we weren't at that life stage. Um and sofa surf for a couple of months whilst looking for a job. I gave myself an end date, um, and I was like, right, let's do you know what? I'm not done. My journey here has got a little bit longer, and it ended up being 10 years total.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

And so LinkedIn Singapore and then sort of ends up with you coming back to the UK and yeah, totally unexpected.

SPEAKER_05 26:59

So even that, yeah. So I was Singapore site manager, yeah, and then had some attrition in the team, ended up dabbling with China and then came back out again. Yeah, uh, took over Hong Kong, took over Japan. Wow. Um, smaller, much smaller offices, but they sound very glamorous. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And then had a succumbent back to the UK for a year, yeah, just before COVID, to manage the AMIA operations because of a maternity leave position came up. So I was here for a year, uh leading a team, chose to go back to Singapore because although I had a phenomenal experience, great leadership opportunity, just decided like I'm I'm I'm not for here. Really? Like Singapore, Singapore was it. So after that, I then became APAC director.

SPEAKER_03 27:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:46

Managed through COVID, and of course, back then I was on the phone.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Right, you're quite close to the epicenter as well.

SPEAKER_05 27:53

And it's like, hey everyone, there's this pandemic coming. Like, I'm managing China, and like we need to listen. Oh, of course, globally, everyone's like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_03 28:04

God, what an experience that must have been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:06

And I remember my dad saying, I think you're like being a bit dramatic. I'm like, okay, dad.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Well, actually, I'm I'm sitting there all shocked, but actually, I'm I was in the same place. I'm sitting there going, Oh, what is this? Come on, like, you know, little dick of the go.

SPEAKER_05 28:19

So, yes, so managed the team through that and was part of the broader COVID management team for the company.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

And yeah, that was No, you're in the NEC Birmingham.

SPEAKER_05 28:31

Who'd have thought it? Living the dream. And even then, I'd say, like, having been through that, and Singapore was super strict for understandable reasons, yeah. Um, still didn't think I'd leave, but just like personal circumstances changed. I I came back to the UK after COVID, met somebody um unexpectedly, and decided actually the time's the time's right. And so I was fortunate enough that there was a position available to move into, but left like, yeah, I was planning my my end of tenure in Singapore to be like the end of tenure at LinkedIn. So very fortunately, I think through the experiences I've had and the network I've built within LinkedIn, there were they were able to make a position available.

SPEAKER_03 29:16

So um let's get into the industry a little bit then and and look at two sort of two sides of it. So landscapes kind of moving, shaping, forming, storming, all that sort of stuff. But what do you think are the big challenges for for yourself, for people like you and your position? What are the challenges we're facing at the moment?

SPEAKER_05 29:33

So uh I feel like COVID is still a challenge. Right. I think hybrid's here to stay. Yeah, yeah. And we keep talking about this return to office and return to work, and we're still hearing mandates. I just think it's done. Yeah. Like companies have taken a stance. You're either in or you're not. And if if you're not, the we can still do as much as we can do to influence, and it's not gonna be having a coffee machine because everyone's got a fancy coffee machine at home or a nice coffee shop. There's definitely the experience side, which I was talking about earlier. You know, it need you need to have a great office experience, yeah, and people may come.

SPEAKER_06 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:12

But I think we need to stop focusing on what's happened and keep implementing mandates or new guidance on how we want people to show up and focus on the people that are showing up already.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

See what you mean? Because if we're saying return to the office, return from what? Yeah. And it's almost like we're still using the context of do you remember that time everyone went home and now they're sort of gently we're bringing them back? It's like, no, no, no, this is it now. We're just here now. Yeah, like let's stop thinking about the context that's got us to this point. Let's now think about how we go on from this point. So, what do you think the real opportunity is for workplace uh professionals, workplace industry? What do you think the opportunities we should be grasping at?

SPEAKER_05 30:55

Um, AI. Right, but not in the sense of what AI tools are available to us in the workplace sector. I've been to a few conferences recently, and that's all we're talking about. Right. Is how can we adopt AI? We shouldn't be focusing and talking about that. What we should be focused and talking about is how the users of our buildings are using AI. Right. And how do we change the infrastructure to support that? So we're doing a lot of work at LinkedIn on uh we're researching how our engineers in particular are leveraging AI, how they're how they're adapting the platform with, you know, using AI technology, but also to make to to build an AI platform. And so when we talk to them about what their needs are, it's very different, you know, they they're coding and they're working together very differently from how they used to work together. And so we're trying to focus on that side of things. So, how do we support them? How do we support their new pod ways of working and the tools that they need to be successful? How can we bring that to life in the workplace?

SPEAKER_03 32:03

But I suppose we're used to, I say this having never run a building, right? But you know, I imagine there's conversations about where's the business going to be in the next two, three, four, five years. Yeah. What's your workforce plan look like, and therefore we can start planning the space plan for you.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

That's like we can't do that now.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

And and the thing is, I guess, in a way, the people you're the subjects of that, they don't even know because they're like, we're still finding our way with it as well. So it must long-term planning must be quite challenging.

SPEAKER_05 32:30

But we can still have the right conversations to be ready for it.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:33

And that again, that's something that we are focusing on at the moment. It's trying to understand where and how the business wants to grow and scale and what we need to do to be ready for it. So it's it's less about getting ready with the physical spaces if there are expansions.

SPEAKER_06 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

But but how can we be prepared to move faster? So how can we make sure that our, you know, the research in market is there, ready to go, so that when a leader says, hey, we're we're growing, or finance confirm that, you know, you've got X headcount starting, we're there going, Cool, we've got we've got everything we need in place, we just need to update the numbers. Right. So we're looking at it, you know, we it's the same approach, but it's it's just more responsive and agile, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

So let's say, for instance, um you could go back in time to that Chloe working in your uncle's reception. Yeah. Uh, what advice would you be giving someone who wants to be the next workplace leader? What would you be telling them to do?

SPEAKER_05 33:30

Network. No, like that's what I've always told my team, talk to people and don't limit it to external. So even within the organization, you know, I've I pride myself on the relationships that I've built within LinkedIn across the entire workplace org, when I've worked on projects with other leaders as well, tried to, you know, keep in touch in some way with them and and build a brand around, you know, what what do you want to be known for? And for me, it's the the reliability, um being able to talk to me, you know, just the the really basic thing is if you don't know where to go, come to me. You know, I've I've worked with LinkedIn for 11 years. Chances are I know if I don't know, I can like I can connect you to people and that's pointing in roughly the right direction, they'll probably know.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

Exactly. And and I think that cannot be underestimated. And that as well, that's the that's the value of the workplace is the relationships that you build. You know, you you only want to come to work if there's people that you you enjoy hanging out with.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Can you imagine being that close to the pandemic epicentre in a global company and having to try and get the world to take it seriously? I mean, just talking about it, it feels so strange how quickly the early 20s already feels like history. And at the time, it felt like the whole world had tilted sideways. Anyway, let's go from one tech giant to another. In this next chat, we caught up with Sam Wharton at Pinterest. Now, before we hear from Sam, a quick word from our sponsor.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

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SPEAKER_03 36:06

Welcome to the Workplace Geeks booth. Thank you. Congratulations on making the top 50. Following a colleague onto the top 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_07 36:13

Oh, yeah, yeah, Paul last year, me this year, yeah. Do you know we've got we'll we'll run out of people, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:19

Yeah, exactly. Who's gonna be joining us next year? So look, Sam, just tell us a little bit about yourself, the role you're in, the the organisation you're in, and we'll we'll get into some of your thoughts. Great, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:28

So yeah, I work uh for Pinterest, uh senior workplace manager. Um I manage sites in uh Europe, so UK, London office, and then Paris and Madrid. Um variants of different sites. Um are directly big spaces, some are some are smaller, like we work, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:47

Um yeah, just manage the day-to-day facilities of those spaces. Yeah, um, yeah, it's and that's in because it's not a facility's title, right? Well, yeah, that's the thing. It doesn't, it's not a facility's title, but there's a lot of stuff like globally the role is like it's different everywhere because of the markets, like the role is slightly different. So, like the the general term is workplace manager, yeah. But yeah, there's on in definitely we find in Europe there's a lot more of the facility side of it, just because like like leases are different on offices, like I think typically in in our UK and like Europe sites where like more facilities focused because we manage a lot more of the assets that we have in the space, you know, like rather than the landlord managing the stuff. So like so yeah, so like yeah, we're I I think I my background have come from a facilities-heavy background, so like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Well, let's get into that. So, you like what was the journey to this point, you know, like coming into the industry, into the sector, coming into Pinterest? Give us a kind of a a kind of uh a condensed version of the uh Sam career story, sure.

SPEAKER_07 37:46

Yeah, so uh I d everyone says you fall into facilities, you know, like everyone does, because you don't get taught at school or college that this is like a a career. Um but I look I I moved to London after uni, I just moved down. I just got a job at um company called Lions Festivals, which was like a marketing and media advertising festival company. I I got a job for a cousin, and then there was a bit of like an interview process, and I wasn't quite good enough for like the actual like media roles, you know. So I was like to that, oh well just fling them in the post room. So went in the post room and it was it was collecting all the entries that came in. And then I got a job at another media agency as a facilities assistant, again in the post room, but a bit more on the sort of operations side, like dealing with vendors and and and all that stuff, and then I got a role at HelloFresh as a facilities manager, really. Look, I was super it was a st it back then it was it was a start-up, like sort of startup vibe, you know, like everyone was doing everything. Um and uh I was just phoning at the deep end, really managing this like big office with like a had like a test kitchen in there, had like an event space and all that, and I was I was pretty young at the time. I must have been about like 27, 26 or something. I was it was a challenge, it was great to be phoning at the deep end is the best thing, you know. And and especially in facilities or workplace, you like you're in these situations where some of you have no help and you have to act fast, you know, and and that was it was a great but I was like I need to go and learn a craft, you know. Like I was getting I I was I was like this is a this is the industry that I want to be in. So planning for jobs and I got a great role at um Somerset House on the Strand in London, um grade one listed building, like uh working as part of the trust, the Somerset House Trust. Essentially we were acting as landlord. So like there's there's like there's like 280 creative industries that worked in there. I joined a really good small team and they did everything. It was great to be there. I learned a lot there. I had great great two great managers um who taught me a lot there, and uh that was really when I started to understand facilities more. I got some experience, and then I went to Pinterest and um uh sort of moulded like my experience more there as well. So like it's a bit more um there's a lot more responsibility there, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

It's um lovely story there and about how you sort of go from from that kind of post-room to this. You know, sort of mixing with other folk on this top leaders, uh top uh top 50 list and all that. What do you think you know when you're talking to people in similar roles and you know peers and stuff, what what do you feel like is the big challenges that people in your role are kind of facing at the moment?

SPEAKER_07 40:25

Well, I still think the working uh pattern is still in flux. It's sort of like yes, we've got all this hybrid working and all that, but it's it's not quite set yet. Like some some companies come in a certain amount of time, some companies come in another, and and and within businesses it's always changing as well. So like when you're trying to define these spaces, like that people work in, um five years' time it might be totally different. So you have to be really agile.

SPEAKER_06 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Um and and do you think like expectations because you know, even within your organisation, but if you're employing someone from another business that's a top talent, and they're well hold on, we did it like this here, whereas before everyone was just sort of broadly on a nine to five Monday to Friday, right?

SPEAKER_07 41:12

Yeah, and that and that within itself is is a is a challenge to like because no answer is the right answer, really, like in the way of working, because everyone it's totally different for every industry and every every office, really, and like even by teams within working within the offices. Like, so it's a challenge when you get new new people and when you work with new people is to is to tell the story of what we're actually doing and and how and how that works for us. Um and I think and on that as well, like linking to that is like there's more and more pressure for workplace teams to provide value for people to come into offices. You have to balance creating these amazing spaces and managing these amazing spaces and the additional pressure of us being business leaders and and trying we're sort of seen as like um having a good workspace is like a talent retainer for the business, essentially, you know, like especially working within the tech industry now. Like you can go into these offices and you don't have to leave all day.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

You you just well and I kind of feel that's where um where sort of competitive workplaces actually was born out of that sector, right? Particularly like kind of Silicon Valley and all this, it was almost a brand statement to say come work for us, we've got the best workplaces, and now I sort of sometimes think with organisations like yours is you've also got to maintain that.

SPEAKER_07 42:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

And and you know what, you're not a little startup anymore, yeah. Actually a proper grown-up corporate that comes with slight slightly different pressures. And you're like, how do we keep pushing that envelope? Because expectations change quicker than workplaces, right? Of course.

SPEAKER_07 42:49

Like it's like it's it's and and to to try and measure the success of an office is is difficult too. Like look, we have a lot of data. We see like data, but it's not very like uh qualitative, you know, like it's not like it's it's um it's like oh how how is the office being utilised like we still we still can't lose sight of the fact that it's a it's a it's a people business. Like, you know, like we want want to have we want people within the space and and use the space for what it's for and in those spaces are changing uh not just uh like like I said before, it's not just nine to five people sitting down, it the social spaces, the the meeting spaces, it's it's client focused spaces. Um so there's a challenge balance and all that, like there's and there's so many people within these within these offices using it for different different uses on on the day. Like you know, like it's not straightforward anyway. It's not it's not but but that's it's good that that's a challenge, and it's good that we can create these spaces to try and bring these people into the office and and make sure they have make sure they're able to do their best work like you know So if that's the challenge then what's the opportunity?

SPEAKER_03 43:58

What you know like Like you I mean, maybe it's a different side of the same coin, but what could we be doing more and like what impact could we be making? And and maybe we're not, or maybe we we're starting to, but like what is the opportunity for the sector?

SPEAKER_07 44:13

AI is obviously a big thing, especially here today. There's lots of talk about AI. Um it's it's about removing we want to remove road box for people within the office and and using AI to streamline our sort of workplace operations um routine tasks, yeah, so we can focus more on the actual personal like people coming into the office and making sure AI can't do it. Exactly, yeah. And I don't think I don't I I think like AI is obviously great, it's great for us, but we like like you said, we can't lose the sight of like being people first and and what we're actually here to do, like you know, like we're here to maintain these spaces for people to come in and do amazing work, you know, like so um what would your advice be then?

SPEAKER_03 44:55

So let's say the the next person from Pinterest is sending her, oh I better apply for this as well. What would be your advice to workplace leaders? What you know, if if they said, Oh, one day I want to be a workplace manager for a like a global tech firm, what what would you be saying to them?

SPEAKER_07 45:09

There's so much technology out there at the moment, and there's loads of things that happen, but don't lose sight of the basics and of of are things running properly? Is it uh people able to come into the office? Yeah, are you uh personable enough to get people on board? And so either when I say get people on board, it's like anyone within the office, either it's a vendor, even if it's like C-suite level, even if it's like managers, anyone, get them on board with with your work day to day and um and that'll help you in the long run of make getting decisions made, you know, and and er bringing people along with a journey when you want to do a bit of change management, I suppose. Like and um Yeah, and and be don't be afraid to ask questions. Like I had a my one of my bosses at uh some set house, he said you'll get to a point within your career where you're not asking the questions anymore, and people are asking you the questions, and it's quite like a strange feeling that like still there's so much to learn, but like when you're when you're talking to people about facilities and you actually start to realise like you actually do know quite a lot. So like learn, learn, come to events like here today to learn and meet people and um create those connections.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

As we said there, that's two years running that someone from Pinterest has made the list and joined us on the pod. So I wonder who it'll be next year. I look forward to meeting them. Anyway, now on to our fifth and final guest. We caught up with Catherine Horton, Workplace Lead at OCS. Catherine, welcome to the booth, the Workplace Geeks booth. Uh well done on getting on the list. Thank you. Top 50 list. Um, just tell us what you do, who you do it for, and then we'll find out a little bit more about you.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

So I'm Catherine Horton. I'm business director for workplace at OCS. So I sit within the private FM sector.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

And so you're dealing with a lot of private sector clients, talking to them about workplace and facilities management. How on earth did you get there? You know, where did that start? How long have you been in the industry? Did you come straight into the industry, or like most people, did you sort of accidentally fall into it? Just tell us a little bit of that backstory.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Like most people in FM, I fell into it. I um moved around a little bit, um, sort of between 18 to 21, um, then moved back to my hometown, really needed to find some something to do. Um, and from that, I then I joined a temp agency and I joined uh a um National Building Services um contractors and I worked on the help desk. So I joined then, and way back then we used to fax the engineers all of their job sheets and organise their diaries. Everyone's looking at what a fax machine is now. Yeah, so I did that and generally looked after kind of retail clients, and that's kind of really what got me into FM as an industry. Um, from that I kind of really worked my way up within that organisation. They were a sort of small to medium-sized company, family-owned and led. Worked there for just shy of 10 years. In the last two years there, they put me through a CMI qualification, and from that I then decided to do my MBA, which they supported me with, which was brilliant. And after I'd completed it, I had all of this knowledge and all these things I wanted to do, and I wasn't really in a position where I could put them into practice. Uh, so that made me kind of look out in the job market, and I found a role as a facilities manager, and that's when I joined MACE. So that was MACE Operate, who part of the FM division of what was then MACE. And around two years ago, um, the board there there was a management buyout, and they formed Macro as a global FM standalone business, and there I headed up um workplace and retail. So and what I found from the retail element was actually a lot of that was starting to transition in into the workplace. So with retail, it's all around sort of presence and brand, and actually, that's now the way that workplace is going around identifying the brand of the organization that you work for, and building yeah, building a workplace that people want to come to in the same way that retail sometimes have a presence on the high street as more of a brand awareness than actually as a revenue and profit generator, and that's really kind of the way that workplace is going, is making sure you know you've you've got that presence and maybe scaling that down to to cater for the diverse workforce that we've got.

SPEAKER_03 49:53

I think there's also another parallel that I find really interesting is that in retail they really understand experience and experience in the pursuit of an end result. You know, we all know that your spending habits will change if we do this experience. You know, that's supposed to sort of a bit of a cliche with the classic one of supermarkets and popping some.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Yeah, the psychology behind.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

And you know, I do think it's kind of a missed thing in in workplace, is actually you know, it that kind of experiential focus that goes actually, we know certain experiences lead to certain amount of outcomes, and if we if we know the outcome that we're aiming for, how do we work back? And I think probably the closest we've got to that is the took a lot of talk about the hotelification of the workplace. Yeah, I actually think that like the retail learnings are actually just as exciting on that.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

Yeah, and that's something we're doing a lot um at OCS now, so so we've got a great sort of what we brand as kind of guest surfaces, but it's the same, same as you're saying around the hotelification, but it is all that experience, which is for me is feeling, and it's how do you feel when you go into the workplace, and that's really subjective as to what you had for breakfast this morning, or how you were greeted. Was your parking space used by somebody? All of those things all add up to that overall experience, and retail it's the same sort of thing, you know. You don't you might not go back into that store if you had a bad experience with the customer service representative, or you know, I'm the worst for it, the queue's too long, I'll just put it on the shelf and buy it on online. Like you, and it's hard to then come back from that.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

So with that with that landscape, and of course, the what the workplace landscape's probably gone under more scrutiny and flux in the last few years than it has done for a long time. But what do you think the the big challenges, maybe like you know, when you're talking to your clients and stuff, you know, what is there any sort of common themes that they're saying that our big workplace challenges X, or do you think is a a challenge that the industry's got at the minute?

SPEAKER_04 51:49

I think there's just a whole challenge around people value in place and where and trying to cater for everybody's differences, which is inevitably impossible. You that you've got to create a space that works for people, and with that, you know, you've then got all of your sort of cost implications, people are trying to really kind of drive not only efficiency of space, but you know, efficiency of people, um, and all of that combined is causing, I guess, a bit of a stir in terms of how you know where real estate professionals are actually looking to have a place. So, you know, location, driving and attracting and retaining talent is a real key. So there's there's there's so many bits of the landscape changing that actually you really need to be working with an FM partner that's going to help you and support you with that. And it's being able to work with a partner who will actually support, yes, we're downsizing and we're gonna reduce our scope, or actually, you know, can we shut this floor down, or all sorts of things of actually just looking at things not, you know, as a as a standstill, flexible throughout the the contract term and periods.

SPEAKER_03 53:07

Do you think that um you your point there about um trying to create a space for everybody? Do you think that kind of personal experience is intensified? Because my my sort of take was I suppose people have always wanted a more personal experience, a very sort of them-focused experience in a space. But I I sort of think about myself and the workforce, I know sadly, uh just at the turn of the millennium. Um, you know, I sort of entered the workforce in 2003 at college, and it never really crossed my mind that it's like I want it a bit more me focused. I guess what I'm asking is do you think employees have become more demanding, and therefore that's put more pressure on organisations to try and meet that demand as opposed in the past where they probably were like, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 53:49

Yeah, I think so, but I think that's down to there's more, there's more choice. People are moving for some of those softer things.

SPEAKER_06 53:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

So you've got to, you've got to sort of make a conscious decision as an employer as to what your brand and your company sort of stand for and make sure your workplace then reflects that. And I think people buy from people, right? It has to be a people-led uh approach to however you develop the the workplace. There is more freedom of choice because the the office environment has come on leaps and bounds in in decades. So you you've got to create a space that people want to work and be in. Because for me, the whole sort of directive around return to the office, it doesn't work. If if the space works, people will go there and they, you know, making it worth the commute is actually around how how easy have we made this for people to want to be here and have they got you know the collaboration space and all of those things for them.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Um so let's let's pivot, and maybe it's the same side of the uh the opposite side of the same coin, but what's the opportunities for workplace leaders and workplace teams and and workplace providers?

SPEAKER_04 55:06

I think the opportunities are moving more into that experiential-led FM delivery.

SPEAKER_06 55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

And that that can't be replaced by AI. That is a people-led initiative that people are generating those experiences through lots of technology and and everything else. So it's actually that transition to the people-centric led approach ahead of it being just services.

SPEAKER_06 55:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

We've gone from what I would call a very sort of structural service-led approach to actually people-led and the services, they're a given, right? Like everybody in the FM industry, in the the big players, can deliver, you know, hard and soft services, etc., but it's how you wrap it all together and wrap that experiential layer around every element of FM.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Let's go back in time. You've just finished your MBA and you're coming out and thinking, what can I do with this qualification? What can I do with all this stuff? And you come back in time and you can give yourself some advice. What would you be advising future workplace leaders?

SPEAKER_04 56:14

Don't compare yourself to others. So if you're looking at other people thinking they're, you know, they're all over this, they're totally involved with that, I need to do that. That isn't what you need to do. No, you need to be you, and you need to bring whatever your value is to the workplace. And you need to kind of really pick that apart and understand what that is and what your personal brand is. Um, and if you get offered opportunities or you think, should I give it a go? Just go with your gut. And if you think you should, then you definitely should.

SPEAKER_03 56:50

And there you have it five leaders, five completely different career paths. Blue coats, post rooms, business studies, global tech firms, MBAs. One of the things I love most about this industry is that it really is no single route into it. People arrive from everywhere and bring different perspectives with them. And it's worth saying we've got plenty more conversations like this coming over the next few months with guests from MasterCard, Deloitte, Sage, and more already lined up. And we'll also be back at the awards for the workplace leaders in July, where, knowing this crowd, I'll probably end up sticking a microphone in front of a few more people before the night's over. And don't forget the main series of the Workplace Geeks returns in early June. And we're kicking off with Dave Coplin. Long before remote work became mainstream, Dave was already challenging how we think about work, technology, and productivity, including an our infamous talk for the RSA that made its way onto YouTube back in 2013 and now feels strangely ahead of its time. So it's well worth paying attention to what he's talking about now. Before we finish, just a reminder that the Workplace Geeks is brought to you by Audium, the workplace analytics platform helping organisations make sense of written feedback and uncovering the stories behind the scores. You can find out more at audium.io. Stay tuned and we'll speak soon.