Rethinking Intimacy

If chemistry has ever fooled you into thinking you’ve found closeness, this conversation offers a new map. We break down intimacy into a sequence that actually works—know, trust, rely, commit, then touch—and unpack why flipping that order can feel amazing at first and empty soon after. Along the way, we add the missing layers: emotional safety that makes honesty possible, and intellectual curiosity that keeps two minds playful, challenged, and aligned.

With Melissa’s therapist lens, we explore how attachment styles influence the way we seek or avoid closeness. Secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized patterns can make the same moment feel safe to one partner and threatening to another. The good news: these patterns aren’t destiny. Through self-awareness, therapy, and repeated positive experiences, couples can move toward secure connection. We offer practical language to lower defensiveness—asking “Do you want listening or feedback?”—and simple rituals that stabilize trust, like setting a clear time to reconnect when one person needs space.

We also tackle common friction points between men and women without caricatures or clichés. Many men are trained to prioritize the mission over emotion; many women need emotional responsiveness to feel bonded. Translation helps: a headline share without a forced deep dive, a hug while taking space, and clarity that “it’s not you.” We talk about depending on a partner without collapsing into dependency, repairing after missteps, and how small, consistent follow-through builds deep security over time. If you’re wondering how to feel seen, not just close, you’ll leave with steps you can try tonight.

If this sparked reflection, share it with someone you care about, subscribe for more candid conversations, and leave a review with one insight you’re planning to practice this week.

Chapters

• 0:00 Redefining Intimacy
• 3:21 The Relationship Attachment Model
• 6:31 Intensity Versus Intimacy
• 11:14 Melissa’s Three Intimacies
• 15:40 When Comfort Kills Connection
• 19:49 Attachment Styles And Wiring
• 26:50 Depend On Versus Dependency
• 30:45 Men, Emotions, And Misconceptions
• 36:20 Emotional Safety For Women
• 42:37 Communication Without Fixing
• 48:20 Space, Trust, And Reassurance

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 1:16

We're back for another episode of The Unmentionables. And this time we're going to be talking about intimacy. We use the word intimacy all the time in dating, marriage, even friendship. But most people don't actually know what it feels like to really be known. Melissa, as you've often said to me in conversations, intimacy isn't just about sex or closeness, it's a much deeper realm. So as a therapist, why do you think we confuse intimacy with closeness?

SPEAKER_01: 1:46

Sure, I think that our society has told us that intimacy is just physical connection. And we don't ever bother to explore that deeper. And then we have a physical connection with somebody, we wonder why we still feel like something is missing.

SPEAKER_00: 2:06

So what's your working definition of true intimacy?

SPEAKER_01: 2:09

So, you know, years and years and years ago, I read a book, and it was, I think it was called How to Not Date a Jerk. And the book used, there's a man by the name of Dr. John Van Epp, and he has the Ram model. It's the relationship attachment model. And the whole premise of this model was you had to step through a progression of getting to know somebody. And if you put the cart before the horse, it was going to mess up the ability to truly be intimate. So his whole theory said that first you need to get to know somebody. It's how well do I know you, your inner world, your values, your beliefs, your goals, your character. And it helps to build really the foundations of trust is do I truly know who this person is? And after you know them, then you can trust them. You can be confident in their reliability, their honesty, their safety. After you trust them, then you can rely on them. You can depend on them to help meet your emotional needs, your practical needs, relational needs. After they show a consistent pattern of being able to do those things, that you can really rely on them, then we can commit to somebody. We can dedicate our time, our resources, all of our energy into that special relationship. And then the fifth level to his relationship attachment model is that touch part, that physical intimacy or sexual contact that happens in the relationship. And when we sit back and look at this, we have to ask ourselves how many people today actually follow that progression?

SPEAKER_00: 4:23

Yeah. And so what do you see with that?

SPEAKER_01: 4:26

Well, what we see is that we rush into physical relationships with people without any level of commitment. And then add on top of that, you know, oh my goodness, are they cheating? Because we don't trust them. And if we don't trust them, it's because we don't really know their character. Because if we knew their character, then we would know if they are being faithful or unfaithful and you know who who they truly are deep down. And we're definitely not building a reliance on people because I don't want to depend on you. I don't want to become dependent. And so when we quickly jump into that physical realm, we confuse intensity with intimacy.

SPEAKER_00: 5:19

Is that sort of the idea of feeling close to someone but not really feeling seen?

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

Yeah. I mean, I think that it's really easy to be physically close to somebody and then rely on that in order to feel good about the relationship. And what we forget is that just because there's a lot of physical closeness in the beginning, it's not something that may always exist. It's that old statement that, you know, beauty fades, and then what's left underneath it. So when we look at really being seen in a relationship, this is it's interesting because this is really where I started to shift out of this model and look at kind of what's what's my own model? What do I believe are the important parts of actual deep intimacy? And where I landed was, okay, obviously there's this physical component. And Epp definitely touches, or Van Epp actually, touches on this emotional component, you know, this ability to be able to share our fears and our dreams and our insecurities without shame, the ability to not feel judged, looking at conflicts becoming opportunities to just understand each other, not have power struggles and drama for lack of a better term. And that emotional intimacy deepens trust and should help both people be more authentic in relationship. And when we can be authentic, then we really feel more seen. And looking at the physical and the emotional, I still felt like something was missing. And that's where I add in intellectual intimacy. Really seeing someone, seeing their mind, being able to engage in conversations that go deeper and push each other and explore, and just you know, have those deep, deep conversations about whatever it is, and how that can be really fulfilling and energizing, that you can have deep conversations and that playful banter, and there's a high level of respect there. And you can really work together to create some amazing goals and connected worldview.

SPEAKER_00: 8:26

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So when a couple comes to you and says, you know, we're just not connecting anymore, what they might be saying is we've really stopped feeling safe enough to sort of take it to the next level.

SPEAKER_01: 8:37

Yeah. They're pretty much saying, we got comfortable. We got comfortable, we stopped trying to connect because we just didn't feel like it one day. And one day turned into more days, and that became deeper frustrations that weren't able to be shared for fear of judgment or condemnation. And ultimately, that leads to disconnection, lack of safety, and people give up. They lose hope.

SPEAKER_00: 9:16

So let's let's talk about what's really going on under the hood because when you describe this to clients or you talk about this in in those kind of scenarios, it almost feels like attachment is like the operating system of how this works. And so I'm wondering if people are sort of predisposed based on their past to only be able to get to a certain level of intimacy, to maybe regress at times. Like, you know, is there sort of is there a piece of this that that goes back to you know, sort of how they've been wired from past relationships, including not just you know, past romantic relationships, but maybe even familial relationships.

SPEAKER_01: 10:07

Absolutely. We know it goes all the way back to the womb. And those first connections to mom and dad, and the messages that we receive through those attachments. And absolutely we look at the different attachment styles, you know, secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And how those different attachment styles impact our ability to connect. You know, you look at somebody who is disorganized and they have experiences of being rejected by their primary caretakers, mom and dad. And they have a desire maybe for intimacy, but that fear of rejection takes over. So they've got really high anxiety in relationships. It's where we see that push, pull, the defensiveness, the mistrust, the fight or flight that happens. It's a very panicked attachment of I desperately want this. And I am so terrified of it that I don't know what to do. And, you know, you've got your people who are more avoidant, and those are the ones that pull back. They're, you know, they they had more distant, unresponsive parents, and they're self-sufficient, they're independent, they don't need anybody. They're not able to rely on other people, they won't make themselves vulnerable enough to actually allow somebody in to help meet those needs. And you've got your anxious attachment, and that's where those parents didn't respond consistently to needs. These people seek approval from others, that external validation. They're never sure whether or not they're gonna get what they need. And these are your stage one clingers, because if they let go, you're gonna run. And then you've got your secure attachment, which was pretty reliable caregiving. Got a positive view of themselves and other people, they have no problem relying on other people, depending on people, allowing people to connect with them. And I think what's important to understand about these is there's a lot of crossover and it can be changed. So just because somebody had an awful childhood where their needs weren't consistently met doesn't mean they have to continue to follow that pattern. They can unlearn these things, they can grow. And I think that's what this comes back to is how self-aware is somebody? How open are they to being vulnerable and risking, you know, I might get hurt in this. And I also might heal through this. How closed off are they? Because, you know, we've talked about this before, where you can't force somebody to get help. You can't force somebody to change, but if they want to, gosh, like the whole world is open.

SPEAKER_00: 13:57

Yeah, does that ebb and flow over time? Is that something that people are, you know, willing to change, and then they kind of move out of that space and they get set back in their ways again, and then they're willing to change again, and sort of, I don't know. I I always think of the career pathway models that you see like on LinkedIn. A lot of times they'll show you like the career pathway for your job that everybody thinks you have, where it's sort of a straight line up or stepladder or something like that. And then it says the career pathway that you actually have, and it's just this five-year-old drawing of like just a you know, somebody took a crayon and made a bunch of snakes, and it's it all sort of starts at one place and it ends up where you wanted to go, but it took you all kinds of different directions to get there. D does that kind of thing happen here, or are you kind of just there's a plateau where people get to that they just can't go any further?

SPEAKER_01: 14:48

You know, I don't believe that there is a plateau. If somebody wants to go deeper, I think the plateau is what exists for people that are shut down, that just can't fathom being vulnerable. They write off connection, and and this would really be your avoidant people that whatever, I'd be fine without you. Doesn't matter. And they see relationships and attachment as disposable.

SPEAKER_00: 15:25

Yeah, so you you said something earlier, and I I kind of want to throw a curveball back to it. You talked about the more secure attachment individuals that are you know open to depending on other people. And I'm just wondering from a word perspective, do you see a difference between dependence and dependent?

SPEAKER_01: 15:43

So what I see the difference as being is can I what's the word delegate? Can I delegate out? Can I express my needs? Am I okay to look at this relationship and say, you know what? I'm okay saying that I do depend on this person for certain things that I'm willing to place my trust in them and their ability to do these things. Versus dependency being my life would end without this person. I don't know what to do. I can't be alone, I can't be financially stable by myself, I can't do anything by myself because this person is like the end all and be all of my world. That's dependency. But can I depend on this person to do something if I ask? Can I depend on them to circle back and ask for help if they're having a hard time? Can I depend on them to have the good character that I know, or at least I thought I knew that they had? That's being able to depend on somebody that their word is good and their ability to follow through is reliable.

SPEAKER_00: 17:16

Do people usually know where they fall in this, you know, attachment scale or this in each of these categories? And is it possible that someone could fall across all of these categories?

SPEAKER_01: 17:30

So people know if they want to know. That's one of those things where if you are able to self-reflect and look at a relationship and ask yourself, what are the issues happening here and why are they happening? The first question should always be, what's my role? How am I impacting this or impeding it from being better? So to that one, you know if you want to know. And if you're going to therapy, you've probably heard of the different attachment styles. You probably have some idea of what you are. And you're probably pretty accurate. I can't remember what the second part of your question was. Can they be all of them? So, no. No, you can't be. You can't be secure and disorganized. You can't be secure and anything else. You are either secure or you are one or a combination of the other three.

SPEAKER_00: 18:44

And what about those people who physiologically have decided that closeness equals danger?

SPEAKER_01: 18:50

Well, that's a problem. Those are not the people that you're gonna find in relationships, or definitely not healthy ones.

SPEAKER_00: 18:59

Well, okay. Thanks for the qualifier because I would suggest that there are a lot of people who are in relationships for the wrong reasons. And closeness equals danger to them.

SPEAKER_01: 19:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:10

I, you know, it's funny because you talk about this stuff, and I just I see a lot of men sort of in that category where they are willing to keep you at arm's length. Not that I've dated many men in my life, like zero, but I understand how men think, and a lot of us have a mother wound. Yeah, whatever you want to call it. A lot of us just feel like there's a certain, you know, level of emotional closeness that we'll, you know, put up with. And then there's there's just a a point where it's just that we've had enough of that.

SPEAKER_01: 19:45

Enough of what? What what goes through the male mind there?

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

I think it is it's a lot for us as individuals to process in the moment. I think you know, obviously, listen, disclaimer on this: not every guy is exactly the same. So you can either agree or disagree with me, ask your husband or your brother or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 20:10

Wife, whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 20:12

Hopefully, your wife is not a guy.

SPEAKER_01: 20:14

Oh, yeah. That that would be But I agree, yes.

SPEAKER_00: 20:16

You can also ask your wife.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

If you're a dude, you can ask your wife how she sees it. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:22

But I think a lot of guys, it's it the emotional side of it is we we have a duty, a job, a predisposition to get the job done. And there's no time for feelings. And I I will I will classify this as a former Marine. And again, I'm sure there are plenty of woke former Marines out there who are crying in their wives, you know, skirt pants all the time. But as a former Marine, I'm not wired to live in my feelings. Do I show my feelings? Absolutely, definitely do. Do I have emotions? Yes. Do I necessarily let myself live in those emotions or in those feelings? I do not. And I know there's a lot of guys out there. I know personally, just from seeing interactions and sort of the way that people are that you know that we personally know that are very much the same. We just we have a mission and we're out to get it done. And that mission might be take the trash out. That mission might be get through the day without killing someone. It tongue in cheek, I'm not violent, unless I have to be. There's there's a lot of you know ways to classify this, but it's basically we gotta get the job done. We gotta make it from the time we wake up to the time we go to sleep, and then do it all over again the next day. And there's enough energy expended in that that it makes time spent in emotional situations less comfortable. And I I confess not to know the woman's mind, but I also can see with my own eyes and feel with my own feelings the difference between how generally, and again, I'm being very general here, and you can take me to task over it in the comment section or whatever you want to do. But I I have seen and I know that it is more difficult for me and for most men to go down that road than it is a woman. And I'm not saying that women don't have their own get-through-the-day jobs and you know how they handle it, but men are wired to expect an issue. We are wired to expect a problem. And I feel like the emotional side of, you know, all of this is one of those areas where we we are less prepared to deal with issues that may come up.

SPEAKER_01: 22:50

So I think this is so interesting because I think you touched on a common misconception about emotional intimacy. And for men, I do think that looks different. I don't, I don't think as women, we're expecting you to pour your hearts out like our best friends do. We don't want a cry session with you. It's I think more that emotional connection definitely is aimed toward. Can you embrace how I'm made as a woman with my femininity? Can I be vulnerable? And can you as a man hold that and let me explore it? Can we have honest communication about things and not feel like somebody is hiding things or keeping things out or avoiding talking about things? And another piece of that is really just consistency in responsiveness. You know, can you as a man stay regulated? Or, you know, as a man, are you yelling at somebody about something one day and then another day you're dismissive of it? And, you know, this is that heart connection where we're feeling you asked about being seen earlier, where I'm seen and I'm safe. My my feelings are safe, and and I'm accepted for who I am and and how God created me as a female and designed me differently than you as a man. And I think that this is exactly where women end up being unfaithful, is because they feel lonely, they feel insecure. And even if there is physical affection that's happening, if there is an emotional intimacy, this is where women tend to find it elsewhere.

SPEAKER_00: 25:19

Why is that so important for women?

SPEAKER_01: 25:22

Because we're social connected creatures. Because to us seeing our heart is what bonds us. And it it has to do with loneliness. If I'm dismissed, if I'm, you know, yelled at or disregarded or told that, you know, how I'm feeling or or what I'm thinking isn't important or it's stupid, or you know, somebody just doesn't have time for it, it says to a woman that how I was created isn't accepted. I'm not accepted. I mean, at that rate, it's like, why don't dudes just get with other dudes? And chicks can get with other chicks if if we want somebody that's the same as us. But I think the the whole concept of being in relationship is self-sacrifice. It's recognizing where my weaknesses are and where I need to open myself up a little bit more. And it's sacrificing oftentimes some of our own needs to meet the needs of our partner and help them to feel secure and seen and heard.

SPEAKER_00: 26:44

Is there a point where this gets to be too much? I guess oversharing?

SPEAKER_01: 26:51

Yeah. I mean, I think that I think that we have to assess, you know, are there areas that are triggering for my partner that, you know, maybe this is a topic, the the drama of this topic is a topic that I talk more to my best friend about. And I think what we're talking about here is truly that heart connection between a husband and a wife, or you know, a boyfriend and a girlfriend, partners, right? And we're talking about does my heart feel safe? Do I feel like I can exist and not be judged or condemned or criticized? Is my partner gonna come alongside and help me? And sometimes that means helping me grow, but we're not saying, listen to me spill out all my problems of the day. I think that's a very superficial interpretation of emotional intimacy. We're not talking gossip like he's your best friend. We're saying, can I share my hopes and my dreams and my fears that are are deep down in my soul? And will you take the time to listen to me and maybe curb your need to try to fix it all?

SPEAKER_00: 28:31

Yeah, I think it's a tough ask for most guys to curb that very basic instinct to find problem, fix problem, solve problem, move on to next problem.

SPEAKER_01: 28:42

And it's difficult to ask a woman to curb the need to be emotionally open because if there is not emotional intimacy, you will never get beyond basic sexual gratification. And then it may as well be an object.

SPEAKER_00: 29:06

And on that that topic, you know, the the sexual gratification piece, that's essentially fake intimacy, right?

SPEAKER_01: 29:13

Yeah, it absolutely is. And, you know, there's a lot of people that you know we can have great sex, and that's where it ends. And ultimately, that's where eventually you realize I'm really lonely, and there's so much missing here, and then people move on to the next person they can have great sex with. And they never actually find a deep joy and connection in life, and that's where we talk about people that, you know, do you cap out at a certain point? Do you recognize that you're just not willing to open yourself up to that level of intimacy? Because believe me when I say it is a choice. There's no I can't. It is an actual conscious choice to say, I'm safer being alone. And in that case, it's like, well, maybe you should just go be alone because otherwise, you're giving false hope to people. You're you're out there telling them, I want to be in a relationship. I I want to connect to you, I want to build a future with you. But really, you don't. You want to build something false and hold back the most intimate, vulnerable parts of yourself. And that it's a lie.

SPEAKER_00: 30:42

Yeah, I think a lot of guys hear that though, and they they don't know what that means. The most intimate, vulnerable parts of yourself. We just you just mentioned that this isn't about pouring your heart out and having a cry section session, but it sounds like that to a guy when they hear that. How how can you explain that differently?

SPEAKER_01: 31:00

That's a good question. Because I'm a chick. So I explain it like a chick would. You know, I'm just I'm thinking through this. And I think what it is is can you share? The hopes that you have for the future? Can you share that joint mission where you'd like to be heading together? You know, can you share when you are struggling with something without just the moodiness and the reactivity and, you know, somewhat expecting somebody to be able to just kind of read that there's a problem? But are you willing to share the problem and have the safety of knowing, you know, I can tell this person that I'm having a hard time with this and they're not going to need to fix it. They're not going to make me dive down the emotional hole of it, but I can say, hey, look, I'm struggling with this right now.

SPEAKER_00: 31:59

That would be an ideal world to live in, but I think unfortunately, that is not the world that most people live in. I think a lot of guys fear or believe that as soon as they start sharing, I'm struggling with X, it's going to be, you know, tissues and chick flicks. I think a lot of guys don't feel comfortable saying, this is something I'm struggling with. Here's the basic information around it. I don't want to go much deeper than that and have it understood. They feel like a lot of the time the woman will dive further and further and further. Tell me this, tell me why, tell me this, tell me why. And it just builds tension between the two. There is no ability to say, this is what I'm struggling with. I'm working through it. Give me space. And then space is given. It almost never happens that way.

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

And I think that that's where as women, and I again, I know we're stereotyping here, men versus women, and it doesn't always work out this way. But as women, we have to curb that desire to know the details and, you know, be the nurturer essentially. And I think a lot of that has to do with a lack of safety, lack of trust. Because it's like, well, what do I do in the meantime? Like if there's space, what does space mean? And how long is that space given? And can we function as normal humans and partners while we're not talking about this issue? I think all those things are in there. And it comes down to communication. I tell people all the time when you're communicating with a partner or your partner's communicating with you, sometimes we have to ask, hey, what's your expectation of me here? Do you want me to just listen? Do you want my feedback? What's the goal here? Instead of jumping to a conclusion. So as a man, if you can say to your partner, hey, you know, I just want to fill you in. I'm struggling with something. This is what it is. And we're not talking about I'm struggling to find a hammer or screws, right? We're we're talking about like an actual emotional problem or struggle with something. Yes, we we need to improve relationship communication and give opportunities to share that and see if it's respected.

SPEAKER_00: 34:36

And and what about when the guy just doesn't know, doesn't have a firm grasp on exactly what it is? Because inevitably, I think I speak for most husbands out there, boyfriends, husbands, fiancés on the male side, we might we might not have all the answers. But as soon as we say we're struggling with something, I I again I go back to the analogy. She's running to get the popcorn and the ice cream and the tissues and putting on the Hallmark channel in the background because you know it's time to go through this deep, you know, conversation. And the guy still is trying to figure it out. Most men wear their emotions on their sleeve. Even though they try to hide it, you can tell how most men are feeling. You can tell when they're guarded, you can tell when they're open, you can tell when they're happy, when they're sad. There are very few men who are very stoic to the point where you can't tell how they're feeling. Most of them are former military and probably, you know, special forces people who are, you know, trained on how to do that. But most guys, you can tell that there's some kind of thing there, and maybe I just don't poke that bear.

SPEAKER_01: 35:41

And I would encourage those men to be able to say, I'm struggling with something. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I just want you to know I'm having a hard time and it's not you. I think as women, most of us question, what did I do?

SPEAKER_00: 36:00

Yeah. And I think that only escalates the situation, right? Because the next piece of that is if all the answers aren't presented at the time, then it becomes you're sitting across the dinner table, and and you know, the person across from you who you've given as much of the information as you have, but maybe not all the details that they need, is going through all of the worst possible scenarios in their mind and going down this rabbit hole of negativity, and it just builds that tension between two people. So, how do you solve for that?

SPEAKER_01: 36:32

It's super interesting because you know, that probably was how I used to be. And, you know, these days, having done so much of my own self-re-reflection and exploration, I know when it has nothing to do with me. And so it's hard for me to kind of put myself back in that situation. And my encouragement to women would be this is where trust comes in and why it is so important to know the character of the person that you're sitting there with. Because then if you know their character, then you should trust them enough to see okay, you know what, they're having a hard time with something. It doesn't have anything to do with me, so let's carry on. And I think the hardest part of that is always like not knowing what what to do in the meantime. You know, if if a dude wants space, you know, where is their ability to still recognize, you know, that as a female, whether I need space or not, she is feeling lonely. She is maybe feeling like she doesn't matter, or you know, that she's unwanted. So can I have my emotional issue? And maybe you can answer this question, you know, as a dude, can you have your emotional issue and still give her a hug so that she knows she still matters?

SPEAKER_00: 38:13

I mean, of course, I think there's an element to that, you know, that just it may not be the first thing that's on their mind as they're working through stuff is to put your needs ahead of their own. Probably is the right thing to do.

SPEAKER_01: 38:25

That's growth right there.

SPEAKER_00: 38:27

So for people that's never felt the kind of you know safety that you're talking about in the in the perfect world scenario of someone who's got it all figured out and and is in that secure you know level, I guess, of attachment.

SPEAKER_01: 38:41

Not many, just for the record.

SPEAKER_00: 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:43

If any.

SPEAKER_00: 38:44

I would imagine.

SPEAKER_01: 38:45

Right. We're all a little broken.

SPEAKER_00: 38:46

Who haven't felt that kind of safety. What what's the first step that they can take to try to heal and and really get to a place where they can practice true, true intimacy?

SPEAKER_01: 38:57

Sure. Well, I mean, of course, I think therapy is kind of important.

SPEAKER_00: 39:02

Yeah, Heart for Change Counseling for anybody who's listening to this in the PA area.

SPEAKER_01: 39:09

I definitely think that understanding some of those inner wounds that impacted you as a child and your foundational way of attaching and recognizing what your issues are. Come to terms with the fact that, you know, you can be a real ass and you shut people out and you isolate and recognize that that leaves other people feeling unwanted and alone. And I would hope that in a relationship where people are trying to have an intimate connection, that when you recognize you're hurting this person, not intentionally, but when you're able to recognize that intentional or not, your actions are harming the person that you claim to love, and are impacting then their ability to connect or interact with you. I would I would hope that real love says I don't want to cause harm, and that one might apologize for causing unintentional harm and then seek to reconnect and help that person to feel more loved and wanted and important honestly and valued, and that right there helps to build trust because when we have negative experiences, we're gonna stick with what we know. And it takes repeated positive experiences to override the negative ones. But if we're unwilling to give someone the opportunity to show something different, then we may as well just check out.

SPEAKER_00: 41:23

How do we how do we create relationships that that don't punish honesty? Because sometimes it is you. Yeah. Sometimes it is you. And sometimes the fact that it's you doesn't necessarily mean it's something that you can control or even should control or that you've even done. It's just something that the other person has to work through. And, you know, being able to say that is something I think a lot of people, both men and women, don't have. It's not, it's not there. You don't have the freedom, at least in your minds, to say, you're you're bothering me.

SPEAKER_01: 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

We were at the Sebastian Manascalco show a few weeks ago, I bought a pair of gloves. And on those gloves, I don't know if you noticed, but on the middle finger, it says you bother me.

SPEAKER_01: 42:04

Yeah. Well, and I think the reality is, right, if you're in a relationship where someone bothers you more, and we talk, we talked about the scales here, right? The scales are always moving. And if they bother you more than they build you up and bring you joy, that's a problem.

SPEAKER_00: 42:27

Yeah, I don't know that I was suggesting that if you because that's a bad relationship, right? That's terrible. But we all get on each other's nerves sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:36

We all we all do. Anyone that says that their partner doesn't get on their nerves is they're lying. They're lying. Absolute falsehood. You're a liar. You need to go to church and hope you don't catch fire. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

SPEAKER_01: 42:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 42:51

You're 100% wrong. Well, does it be a good thing? That person on the other side of the table bothers you sometimes.

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

Does it does it always need to be said though?

SPEAKER_00: 42:58

No, but that's that is where I guess I'm coming from with guys is that sometimes you bother us.

SPEAKER_01: 43:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 43:06

Sometimes your emotions are a problem for us. And we don't want to add to that. So we just go, okay, we're just gonna go over here and sure out tinker or build something or play a game or something, coach soccer and stay away from me.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

Right. And you know, as women, we feel the same way. Sometimes y'all just are insensitive and inconsiderate, and y'all could just sometimes be assholes. And we want space. And I think what you said about safety is again, gosh, it all goes back to trust. Do I trust that I can share with this person that I'm just annoyed today? I'm annoyed. I want to be left alone. So I'm gonna go over here and deal with my shit. And that at the end of the day, I can then walk up to my partner and give them a hug and squeeze them tight and hold them or kiss them like you actually mean it, and that everything is okay because now we've come back together. I've dealt with my stuff, you've left me alone. Maybe it's saying thank you every now and again. And it balances things out because if all somebody hears is you're a problem and they don't get the positive reinforcement, and this ties into the whole world of love languages. But if they're always getting you suck, it creates distance. And I know, especially for women, once we start disconnecting, we are gone long before we're gone. Because we we check out and disconnect and lose hope.

SPEAKER_00: 45:09

Yeah, I think a lot of guys are waiting for that to happen.

SPEAKER_01: 45:11

I'm sure they are because I'm sure they're not communicating, and they don't feel safe because they're not sure what the response is gonna be, so they don't even try. And there's a lot of women that that can say it over and over and over again a million times. See me, touch me, hold me, notice me, want me, connect with me. And then when they're finally done, the dudes sit there like, what just happened? Where did that come from? Because they didn't pay attention the whole time.

SPEAKER_00: 45:47

Well, maybe intimacy isn't something that you find, it's something that you sort learn to survive, or create.

SPEAKER_01: 45:55

This is interesting because I I work with uh quite a few men in our age range, men that are are younger and in the next generation, and I've worked with men that are older. And I really think this is a generational component here because I see men in our generation who are a lot like you, and like this doesn't compute, and then I see men who have really done a lot of oh, they've messed up a lot, and recognized, okay, yes, man, woman, very different. How can I learn to respect those differences and give a little so that I can get a lot? And there's a masculine-feminine balance to that of a woman feeling safe and secure within that masculinity, and the man being able to receive love and nurture from the feminine part. And that's where I go back to a lot of these mother wounds that prevent men from receiving love and nurture from a woman because they've been so hurt by their own mothers.

SPEAKER_00: 47:28

So I want to encourage listeners to reflect when was the last time you let someone really see you? Maybe you can leave a comment or share a story, social media, send us an email. As always, we're looking for content for future episodes. So if anything here has stirred anything up, please let us know.

SPEAKER_01: 47:45

And I would say, you know, if you're gonna self-reflect and realize that you're either losing intimacy, that one of these pieces is missing, or you never had it, because the vast majority of people have never actually experienced a truly intimate connection with someone. I would challenge you to talk to someone that knows more about this. And as a first step, have a conversation about it with your partner. Check in, ask how you're doing. Yeah, it's a vulnerable step. I admit it. At the same time, you're either gonna stay stagnant and relationship will fail, or you're gonna decide it's something that you want and you're gonna be willing to learn and grow and take that first step. And any good woman, any good man doesn't expect for perfection. Perfection isn't isn't realistic, but open communication, honest communication, looking at each other's needs and putting the other person's needs first, truly hearing what their needs are, you know, those are all parts of of intimacy. And I hope that a lot of people listening are reflecting on that and maybe looking at at how they can know better and do better.