Hermeneutic Circles: Jesus is Tested

I post this crossover episode as an example of the possibilities for hermeneutic circles as a religious practice. And as a reminder that our only freedom is the open and even playful interpretation of being. And I always love pointing out to people that if they want to follow Jesus, they would do well to adopt the curiosity about the meaning of being that led him out into the wilderness to have a conversation with Satan, and which led him to reinterpret scriptures according to his hermeneutic of love. It is often pointed out that Jesus would have be considered a poor interpreter of the bible in the light of modern Biblical scholarship, and that much to the chagrin of modern "Biblical Literalists," neither he nor any of his interlocutors held to such a limiting and deluded principle, except for maybe Satan, but that his open relation to his tradition allowed for him to understand himself and religious community in a new way. True followers of Christ seek to "make all things new."

https://youtu.be/Fgjqb6bKJ_s

My Uncle Father Herb, my Dad Bob, and I discuss Jesus's testing in the desert. I chose the passage this time. It has always spoken to me about how we are left to interpret the Word of God for ourselves but as a community of interpreters. There will be no one "absolute" interpretation that excludes all the others. However, there will be interpretations that cannot withstand the practices of a hermeneutic circle of responsible interpreters. A hermeneutic circle tests possible interpretations against a set of criteria, which for our circle of Biblical interpreters includes: historical-critical techniques and scholarly information, the history of the theological interpretations of the Church, and our own experiences of trying to apply Biblical teachings and narratives to our lives. But the most important principle for the interpretive practices of those who seek the God of love is love, which is sometimes called the interpretive practice of "Christ the Key" in the Church's tradition of Biblical interpretation. Our faith is that the histories, mythologies and even the laws of the Bible must be interpreted, which means they are open, except for those interpretations that would close one off to hope or love. Unloving Biblical interpretation is without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and is what proliferates most rampantly today. This is the consequence of both our fallenness and our freedom to interpret without love's lure. 

Love is revealed anew throughout ours lives as it has historically been reveled through out the lives of those who have sought it, but it is always a lure to love and never compulsory because love according to its nature must be freely chosen. Even when things seem dark or evil, it is our faith that God is still speaking as the lure to love. Jesus's test in the desert reveals His ministry and is character to Himself and to those that would follow Him. Satan's job as God's "prosecuting attorney," is to test and reveal. In the desert Jesus reinterprets the figure of the "Messiah" from his Jewish tradition and scripture according to the law of love, so that it becomes a figure not of power but of weakness as love does not overpower or control. Jesus passes His test by refusing to test, which is to choose the revelation of love over whatever revelation is given by tests of strength.

If you want to check this episode out on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Fgjqb6bKJ_s

https://www.martinessig.com

Baddass vibes mixed by James Reeves of Midnight Radio: jamesreeves.co for the intro and outro music of most episodes, I mix the mixtapes that I post here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Yeah, I'll just uh I'll read it and talk about the stuff. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

Yeah, sure. You're looking at it.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

This meeting is being recorded. It serves. Hey guys, how's it going?

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Hey, Mark.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

How are you? Good to see you again. I'm back here with my Uncle Father Herb and my dad Bob. And we are gonna do a passage that I picked out today, often known as the temptation or the testing of Jesus, something along those lines. The general context is that this is the beginning in some ways of Jesus' public ministry, his preaching. And he is just finished up, I guess, uh with John the Baptist. A lot of modern scholarship thinks that Jesus uh was at least for a time perhaps either a follower of or influenced by John the Baptist and uh many of John the Baptist's teaching teachings, pardon me. Um and so um in you know, in the Bible, however, in uh the New Testament, uh it's his cousin, uh uh John. So, anyways, um here we go. I'm gonna do it from Matthew. Uh this is chapter four, one through eleven. Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. He fasted forty days and forty nights, and afterwards he was famished. The tempter came and said to him, If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread. But he answered, It is written, one does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God. Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the pinnacle of the temple, saying to him, If you are the son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, He will command his angels concerning you, and on their hands they will bear you up, so that you will not dash your foot against a stone. Jesus said to him, Again it is written, Do not put the Lord your God to the test. Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, All these I will give you if you fall down and worship me. Then Jesus said to him, Away with you, Satan, for it is written, Worship the Lord your God and serve him only. Then the devil left him, and suddenly the angels came and waited on him. There's a slight variant um in Luke that I'm uh gonna talk about when I talk about the last temptation there of the three. So um we'll leave that for now. But just in terms of like why I picked this passage, I always um think that this is like um an interesting kind of a test. So one of the things we learn biblically is that tests um are for revealing, uh revealing uh yourself to yourself sometimes. Um, and there are um ways of showing um Jesus' ministry here, what he's committing himself to, what he came for. Um, part of um some theologians' understanding of kenosis, which is the self-emptying of God into the form of a servant in Jesus, that is talked about in Paul's letter to the Philippians, um, is that he is emptied of his omniscience, he is emptied of his um his omnipotence and all the omnis uh in order to become a person. And so uh there is an idea that there may have been some confusion even for Jesus uh in his uh mission and who he was and what he was about and what he was here to do. And so this test um by Satan uh actually uh clarifies uh to Jesus uh himself, you know, who he is and what he is. Um and he passes uh I love this part of it too. He passes these tests by not testing. So uh refusing to test um certain things is the way in which he passes this test. So uh I've always uh found this uh passage totally fascinating. Um we'll just go uh through temptation by temptation, and then just if you guys uh have anything to say and throw in there, that'd be great. Yes, please. Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

In the in the gospels, like in the in you know, these two and stuff like that. Some of the stories are uh not witnessed, you know, and and they're told. So you know, like if you know the miracles and whatnot. Well, I could see somebody seeing one of those, or you know, a lot of the things uh, you know, in the summer. This one, how would how would they get this uh information?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Was this a fulfillment of uh scripture that they had they had that uh was it a story that because it totally depends which perspective you come at this from, how you look at biblical writing. So but you were gonna say something else I think I cut you off. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

No, I was just you know uh curious that uh two of the uh gospel writers had this story in there. How did it get in there there? And from this you know, from this tone. And I don't know if I'm making myself clear, but it just Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 5:41

Yeah, I got you. It's a basic historical or historiographic question about how does um you know something that happened in private get recorded. Um, so like, you know, in um historical fiction, um let's say Killer Angels, um, what's that guy's name who wrote Killer Angels, Dad? Uh Shira, Jeff Jeff Shira. Yeah, I uh you know, like a lot of people take it for straight history, but we have a lot of private moments, private thoughts of the characters in there. And so, like, how would that have ever been recorded? Well, it wasn't. Uh, he put that in there um to make a point uh about uh, you know, that he thought was bringing out in some way a truth or a characteristic about um the person who he was, you know, thinking about. So did General Lee really have those specific thoughts in that specific way when he was, you know, thinking by uh by himself before a great battle or whatever. Well, he took the kind of like uh authorship or liberty to you know think through who he thought historically Lee was and the kinds of things that he would be thinking. Now, if you're uh um so you might believe something like that about um, you know, the gospel writers. So there was a tradition. Um, these this is uh in two of the boy, um synoptic. Let me slow down and pronounce things correctly, gospels, but not in Mark, interestingly. And so, and there's a slight variation with Luke. And so probably they were going off the same source, and the belief is that they were going off a source that we've never found called Q, uh, which uh just means like um source in German basically. And so uh it's just hypothesized, and so you know, you can do all kinds of things with this. If you're a believing uh Christian and you believe a certain way about it, you would say that maybe Jesus told one of his apostles or disciples about it, and you know, they told somebody else because it's hard to think of his apostles as having been literate and been able to write it down themselves. So you would sort of think about, well, they they wrote this down um because they heard one of the apostles tell them who and it had been told to them by Jesus. Uh, it might have been, you know, a community that like, you know, felt like they knew something about, you know, Jesus and his ministry and were sort of like speculating about this. It very well could have been something that Jesus, you know, talked about in terms of like the temptations of anybody uh in ministry. And from his teachings, they kind of like put it in his, you know, in his thoughts or whatever. So uh again, you know, in terms of the historical witness, um, you know, there's this whole thing called the Jesus seminar where guys go through and they decide what Jesus actually said or did, didn't say. You know, for me, um, I uh am a person who believes this is the truth, but in a but in a very kind of like different way than you can get at through the historical critical method. I believe it's the truth and that it's like, well, it's the word of God and all that kind of stuff for me, but it's like God's word as he gave it to people. And people, you know, have to use their ways of expressing things and and thinking about things. And so for me, it's not like um a good contrast would be um with the Quran. Uh and a lot of Christians get confused about this sometimes. So Quran means recitation, and Muhammad claimed to be writing the exact words that God spoke in God's language, which was you know, seventh-century uh Arabic or whatever. Um, so like for us, that's never been a thing, because I mean it is for some biblical literalists or whatever, but Catholics in general are not biblical literalists, so that we understand that God's word has to be translated into the vernacular or whatever, and that, you know, and that there are four Gospels plus Paul, all who have, you know, variant views of who Jesus was. It's kind of like if you think historically about, you know, having all these different perspectives to look at the same event and doing their best to try to make sense out of that event. God's inspiration was there uh in order to um allow them to have this sort of like openness where they could interpret it from different angles. Um but there's a certain, there is a certain perspective, which is called Christ the Key in biblical interpretation. And in Christ the key, this means that we interpret things according to uh you know how we understand Christ's uh Christ's message as being a message of love. So we always have to find which interpretation uh forwards or I don't know, bears witness to to love. Uh, you know, the best we can. But again, God let us gave us these, you know, these things to to uh to try to work with, you know, in the best way we can.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, I mean the reason I asked is because in my research when I was going for this, you know, there's so many things in the gospels that are fulfillment of the Old Testament, you know, uh prophecies. You know, he's turning over the tables and the temple and you know on the three days and all that stuff. Was this one of those kinds of things when he talks about the bread of life?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Uh yeah, he's referring to yeah, he's referring to the mountain and the desert, absolutely. And basically the temptations are a direct reference to the Ten Commandments. So they it's it's basically uh upholding each one of them as he goes along. Um, you know, kind of grouped together a little bit, but for sure the the big number one and then the first you know big three, whatever for sure are being upheld here. So it is a direct reference. So this is a good question about interpretation because Jesus had to kind of, you know, in human form, had to it had to figure out his own uh interpretation of what he was doing because it wasn't like given to him in this like omniscient way, because that omniscience had kind of uh you know become, I don't know, clouded. To become a human, you have to take on a particular perspective in a particular time in a particular body. So you can't have um not only omniscience but omnipresence and all the rest of this kind of stuff. And so, you know, in order to redeem uh the humanity in human form, um, you know, you have to take this, you have to take on this limitation, all these limitations. And so part of what Jesus is doing here is he's trying to understand too. And and here's again an example in a way of Satan doing uh the work of the accuser and really doing the work of God uh in this very strange way. So uh he's referred to as Satan, which means the uh prosecuting attorney or something like that, who seems to be a member of uh God's uh retinue or court in the book of Job. Um and Satan's job is as a tester, as a tempter. And we think this is like some kind of perilous thing, which it is. I mean, he's in the wilderness, he's starving. But um the point of it is to reveal, to show, uh, to to to to cause to appear. So um, you know, what what is being revealed here uh about you know um Jesus and his message? What it what is the good news? Um and so, you know, this is uh a way to get at the truth is through trial. He is the prosecuting attorney. Uh, by the time of Jesus, um, three figures from the Bible have been put together to be called the devil. One was Satan Hasetan, that would be uh in the book of Job. He also appears in Numbers uh uh very briefly. Uh and then um the next figure that was put together uh is the Luciferic figure. Um, and there's a long history of how this all happened uh from uh, well, mostly from Isaiah, um, and that's that's the fallen angel figure. People wonder why he's called Lucifer Lightbringer. It's because uh it refers to the morning star Saturn, uh, who at the time of Isaiah was referred was in reference to a direct um an actual um Babylonian king. Uh but um, you know, again, it may have specific historical references, but the truth is something that comes out through this kind of biblical interpretation where we are allowed to speculate beyond just the historical facts or whatever, into like the the to extrapolate into the truth, uh the theological truth of what's what's being um what's being expressed here. So I don't know if that's helpful or too much.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, that is exactly what I was uh wondering, you know, about the the whole context. You mentioned I Isaiah too, for example, you know, he would he he you know to fulfill so many things that Isaiah, you know, so it was it was coming. And I figured with Jesus was a biblical scholar and and he knew exactly you know all these references and and whatnot. And uh so I don't know how how that particular thing fit.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I he often makes references that are that show that he knew scripture pretty well. What I love about this passage is that so does so does the devil, so does Satan. I mean, which is which makes me uh, you know, I love this so much because we see that like little scripture wars, anybody can quote scripture, uh including Satan. Um but the uh the the key to the correct interpretation of Satan is shown to us right here, what we call Christ the key. The correct biblical interpretation will always involve love, and it always involves understanding it in the light of love in order to build the capacity to love, in order to, you know, further God's kingdom of love. And so, um yeah, the the Satan can can can can interpret the Bible and and and it's just in and can quote it, but Jesus's interpretation for us is uh correct, and his is not. So and and we see him correcting Satan throughout.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

40 days is also significant. 40 days is a uh biblical reference. Uh you know, they use 40 a lot.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

40 years wandering in the desert. It's a direct reference to the Exodus, just as the just as the mana is a direct reference to the uh the bread that was given to them in the desert. And it was a it's a reference to you know, the Israelites uh, you know, complaining to Moses, like, you know, we are out here in the middle of nowhere, God hasn't done anything for us, you know, we're starving.

SPEAKER_01 16:39

So it's not a good thing. Yeah, it can't be bread alone, it's very consistent with Moses, you know, that whole uh whole story.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yep, it is. It's it's absolutely supposed to refer to that. That's right. Yeah. And I mean, so the and the biggest thing that needs to be reinterpreted for Jesus is messiahship, because there was no prediction that the Messiah would suffer. The prediction uh of all of the references, and there weren't a lot, but uh some of the later references when we start to get into what's called Essene or Apocalyptic Judaism, which Jesus seems to partake in at certain times, although he's mostly a Pharisee, in other words, he's mostly an interpreter of scripture. But he um he's definitely not a Sadducee. Those are the temple guys. He was clearly against them. But like his um because they didn't believe the life after death. Yeah, but also because he wasn't into, you know, centering all legitimate practice in one in a location like the temple or whatever. Um and then he so he, you know, part of his part of his reinterpretation, not only of messiahship, but of of worshiping God, is to end the uh sacrifice at the altar by becoming the sacrifice at the altar. So that was another interpretation, but like, so you know, the expectation of the Messiah was uh this victorious person that you're gonna see referenced here really, uh directly referenced by these temptations. Uh the uh the thought was that he was gonna come in power, that he was going to come as a ruler, that he was gonna kick out the Romans, that he was gonna re-establish, you know, uh Israel, um, that he was gonna, you know, all these kinds of things. That's what the Messiah was. He was like the guy who would get revenge for all the ways in which they had been wronged. Um, and then Jesus is actually here, like being told, like, why don't you do that? Here, I'll give you the power to do that. Do what you're supposed to do as a messiah, and he rejects that idea of a messiah. So, what he's doing is he's taking this concept that's been passed down and he's he's reinterpreting it according to the the law of love, and he's saying, No, I came in weakness, I came in love. I did not come uh as you know, as a um, I don't know, conqueror, let's say. So uh so that's so that's the twist there. So should we get into it or were there any other things there?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Or no, I mean uh I I just I wanna wanted to kind of have that context. And the other piece of context that maybe you guys can know me was why was it placed the reason I was asking some of those questions right behind his baptism, why did he go off after um you know, and why did he even get baptized by John? You know, I mean controversial, Dad. And the other reference I wrote down was uh in uh Noah's Ark was supposed to be 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yep, there's another one, yeah. So uh why did so baptism uh so John's innovation, there was ritual purity uh in like these little like baths that you had to perform if you were a priest. So you would have to clean yourself in case you had been defiled by whatever touching mold, talking to a uh menstruating woman or whatever, yeah, leper, all that kind of stuff. Uh uh touched a dead body, whatever. You had to ritually purify yourself. And it was not about uh cleaning off bacteria, they had no concept of that at all. Um it was just it was just a matter of um rich with what's called ritual purification. Um and uh John's innovation was to democratize ritual purification and to open it up again, according to this radical concept uh of love. It his his sort of ministry is sometimes uh translated as like an introduction of like the way, uh, which is really similar to what people called Christianity before it was called Christianity. It was called the path or the way or something like that, uh, the way to love or whatever. Um, and so his innovation was to say you don't need to um you don't need to make yourself ritually pure uh before every you know time you interact with uh the sacred or the holy or whatever, or or with God or whatever. You just need one uh ritual purification, one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. Um and again, sins had like kind of like changed meanings at this point, which had been in the works for a long time uh via very very Pharisees, but like uh changing from uh what you could call like the Pentateuch to like the prophets, the prophets were much more concerned with moral things rather than with ritual impurity things. And so they were saying, like, God doesn't care. There were lots of versions of this, and all the prophets were scaring, like, God doesn't care about your sacrifices, he you're the the the smell of the burning at the altar makes him sick. Why? Because you don't treat the poor well. He you what that's what he wants you to do. Why? Because you were inhospitable, why be and and they reinterpret Sodom and Gomorrah. It wasn't anything about sexual impurity or anything, it was about they didn't welcome the stranger, they took advantage of people, da da da that kind of stuff. They wanted to change it from uh yeah, like a ritual sort of impurity to like moral concern or moral impurity. And and Jesus kind of like was in in line with that. And that's what John the Baptist was giving forgiveness for in the in the in the in the waters of the Jordan. He was not, you know, getting people, you know, because they had you know touched a dead body or mold or whatever. He was purifying them from their sins specifically. So it was it was a it was a big shift uh away from all the rest of that. It was a democratization of it, it was limiting it to one time, you only have to do this one time. And so like you could almost think of him going out in the wilderness as like I mean, this sounds crass, but like testing it uh to t to see if it took. And and it did, or whatever, yeah, perhaps. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

You know, you were no uh you you can go and get get into it.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Yeah, go ahead. Great. Um, so yeah, so the the first uh test here yeah, temptation, uh, is the he's hungry, he's starving. Um and it's interesting because every mystic after this, a Christian mystic, I should say, uh, modeled their spiritual journey on going out into the wilderness um and fasting and different types of bodily mortification. Um and you can see here that there's a real um concern that had to be addressed kind of early on in Christian tradition. I mean, the reason why Saint Benedict had to write his rules is because he wanted to prevent misunderstanding about asceticism, whereas it was like something you did for your pride or to show people how disciplined you were or whatever. That's not why Jesus is fasting. He uh and I I love this too, is like a lot of mystics, a lot of the early desert fathers especially went out into the desert to encounter God. But look who Jesus encounters in the desert. He encounters, he encounters Satan. And so it's another part of the mystical journey called the Dark Night of the Soul, in which uh you know, the first step is like this, yeah, tremendous suffering, darkness, um, even to the point where many mystics I prayed for it, prayed for, prayed for this kind of suffering, um, uh in order that they might be tested, in order that they might. Um, and but very interestingly, when Jesus taught us to pray, uh the Greek says, uh, don't test, don't put me to the test. We say lead us not in temptation, it's fine translation. But it if you just look at a literal Greek word, it says, Don't, don't put me to the test. Um, and so we're not supposed to have this heroic asceticism where, like, you know, look what I can do. I can like starve myself, I can beat myself up, I can resist all temptations or whatever. The this is what I mean by each one of these sort of like contains within it this uh you win the test by not testing. And so this is another this is another example. Um, you know, he's so he's referring directly to the Israelites wandering in the desert, and you know, Satan says, You're you're you know, you're you're hungry, so you know, just change the bread. And then Jesus wants to say, you know, uh basically uh that you know you're not uh just a stomach. You are something beyond uh your um yeah, you're you're something beyond this this mere uh sustenance and food or whatever. So it's not it's not to like show how strong he is, it's to it's to me, it's to teach, it's to reveal something about God. Uh just to say that you know um you are not just you know your hunger, your your body, you are more than that. You looked like you were gonna say something.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

So who reveal that about the Eucharist? Yes, yes. So this is the direct reference to the Eucharist later on.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yep. Very good. Yeah. Is it um is it 40 days from Easter to Pentecost? That's right.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Herbert knows that better than me.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah, I it's 40 days in London. I think it's 40 days, yeah, you're right. I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Well, this is the beginning of Lent. They they usually have the temptation in the desert the first Sunday in Lent, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

And then isn't there 40 days after uh Christ raised from the dead? I I I you know, you uh raise it. I'm I'm stepping back because Marty, uh you made a real interesting thing about uh the uh manna, you know, in the desert and and whatnot, and uh man does not live by bread alone. Right. But if you look at what charity is, uh I guess one has gotten me puzzled though, is is when you're a missionary, you go out, yeah. One of the first things you do is you you take care of the bodily needs of people, that's right. And then they listen to you more, you know. So that priest came out here and he fed us and he got, you know, and uh oh, let's see what happened, you know, and that's that's the way they convert people.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, that's that's really uh been challenged lately and changed. And it is true that a lot of like uh missionary work at a time was um was done like that. Um but now there's a lot of I mean, a lot of the Catholic worker type organizations that I was involved in. If a person asked you for that witness, you would give it to them. You didn't like, it wasn't like come get the bread and then we you have to come to church or whatever. Uh that has been a part of, you know, a lot of the uh tradition, but the the tradition has really changed a lot on that on that regard for sure. Um, and it certainly isn't um, you know, just going out, um, which is there still are, you know, faiths that do do this, just go out and uh preach and and don't give anybody anything. Most ministries now, when they go somewhere to like uh a third world country or whatever, they build a well or help build a school or whatever. And and so and this and this is uh a witness to them rather than a direct preaching. So that if somebody is curious as to like what kind of person um does these things, or from where do you get the power or resources to do this? Like, why why is this love in your heart, or whatever, then and they are curious, then you would ask. But you wouldn't like hold it out as like a uh like a carrot and a stick, which it has been many times and it probably still is, but I'm just saying that it's it's not a tr it's not like that so much anymore for sure.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Yeah. Well, Jesus uh fed the five thousand with bread. Yes. And uh and he didn't he didn't want them to stop there, but he wanted to go deeper to follow him. Not only because uh he changed the bread, uh multiplied the bread, but to follow him uh for a deeper reason that he is the bread of life.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

So so yeah, so like I like that too because uh Jesus' miracles have been understood di differently too, and it goes back to your question, Dad, about historical witness and stuff like that. So that you know, the the the idea was like, well, was it to establish his authority uh with people? Um, but it's kind of changed away from that a little bit, so that each like each one of the miracles is is more about teaching the people. So, like in Herb's very good example there, it's about teaching people. So, yes, you are feeding people for sure. And so there's practical things being met, but there's also a teaching in it uh uh about you know um abundance, about um uh yeah, about you know the idea of the bread of life and and care beyond uh you know merely uh hunger and that kind of a thing, like like care also for the deeper hunger, uh which is for which is for God or the God of love. Um and so you you see this part of the witness is this loving act. You know, and I I always love the you know very simple miracles where like the leper comes to Jesus and says, you know, if you if you choose to, you can make me well, or if you desire it, you can make me well. Uh and and then Jesus says, I do desire it. So like for me, it's and then you know, you can get into all kinds of problems after that about like, well, then how come you don't make everybody well and that kind of stuff? And and and that's and that's that's true. You could go down that path, but before you do that, there you it it's uh to me at any rate a benefit to stop and just say, um that is God's desire for us to be well. Um so like again, you see that the miracle reveals something uh about God's intentions, uh especially uh the God of love's intentions for us. Um but anyway, so yeah, so miracles, yeah, they they they establish some kind of authority uh as they did for many teachers at the uh of the time, but this isn't like to establish his power or to show him as powerful. This is to show him as a servant, um, and and this to reveal his desire to serve. Um so the second one um is oh yeah, and so then he winds up referring to the to the first command commandment in his rejection of turning the bread, he he just says, you know, um you know, God before anything. That's that's why it's the first commandment sort of thing. Um, and then you know, and the second one, um he he's uh this is where uh Luke has a variant, but he he takes him up there and and he says, Oh, actually, you know, the third one. I got a little ahead of myself. The second one is where he um again refuses to test. I I like this a lot. Like, um, don't put God, don't test God. So that you know, he says, throw yourself down. This is kind of like, if you uh love me, prove you love me by uh saving me, you know, from this terrible situation I've gotten myself into. Uh this kind of thing is like uh for Jesus, not necessary. Like, uh and not only not necessary, but it's a kind of way of um I uh yeah, testing God in an inappropriate way. Uh you test out God by yeah, by uh uh by love, uh really, and and seeing what what comes of of loving acts and and that kind of a thing. And and and and by by showing uh your love and how will they know us, they will know us by our love for each other. That kind of a thing is what reveals God and God's intention, not by, you know, show me you love me, I'm gonna throw myself off this thing or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

Well, the um question I had on this one too is uh, you know, uh there's a lot of people who don't believe in angels, you know, and they don't believe in Satan. You know, those kinds of things they don't believe in that angels uh were real and that they were uh you know through. And I was just very curious uh on the whole the whole you know, you know, you got all these guys uh you know that wouldn't gladly save you, you know, and you know, in in heaven and whatnot. Because uh Satan's a fallen angel and and and whatnot. So I don't what the Protestants yeah, I mean, there is Protestant religions who do poo-poo the whole concept, you know, of you know angels. We used to uh believe it or not, in uh grade school, in the Catholic grade school, we used to have to sit over on the side a little bit and leave room for your guardian angel.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

That's nice. Well that's that's popular within Protestantism as well. Yeah is the is the is the idea of uh of angels and guardian angels. You might be thinking of more of a kind of older version of um, I don't know, mainline Protestantism, but like most Protestants uh have a not only a the the uh well-developed angelology as it's called, but also a demonology. Um it's it's kind of interesting nowadays, it's so changed because the Catholic Church used to be the only church that would perform an exorcism, but now there are a number of Protestants who are doing it um via their own via their own thing, right? Yeah, and teaching about demons and demonology. And that used to be, like you're saying, Dad, that used to be, I guess, more when you guys were coming up, used to be like, oh, Catholic superstition, Catholic backwardsness, whatever. But like, yeah, it's not it's not like quite like that anymore. Although you might find that still in some very, I don't know, mainline conservative Protestantism, like you know, Methodism, certain forms, Lutheranism, uh maybe you know, Presbyterianism, stuff like that. They're not you know gonna be doing anything with angels or here's another question there, number two.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

You know, here he's he's saying that throw yourself over and somebody catch you, you know, that that whole thing. Yeah, Catholic Church is very against suicide, you know. For years, you know, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I didn't think about it. You couldn't even get uh you know uh buried in the church, could you, you know, if you committed suicide and it I don't know if it's that way anymore, but no, you can, Herb said last time. Yeah, you can. You know, and uh you know, just just don't worry about it, and those kind of things. And I th I thought that when I when I was reading this is what a contrast. Yeah you know, in the in the whole thing. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:51

Oh yeah, I yeah, I I I I didn't read that into it at first, but you're right. Yeah, this would be uh a kind of uh suicidal move uh on his part or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

So we he doesn't want to Jesus uh doesn't want you to presume something, use your common sense.

SPEAKER_00 36:09

All right, nice, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

And not presume uh something like this, you know. The angels will come and rescue, you know. That's pr presumption, you know.

unknown 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Well, I just like the very simple thing from the Our Father, you know, don't test. What I mean, and they're but you know, the thing about it is is that tests are going to come in your life. In other words, these kind of like trials and tribulations are gonna be in your life, and they're they're gonna reveal, you know, both the good and the bad about you and about the world and everything else. Um, but your faith, uh, our faith is that, you know, love is greater than any of those things. And so, you know, in any test, in any suffering, you what's also revealed beyond, you know, just evil uh is also uh this love. I always think it's very trite, but I just love this Fred Rogers saying where he talks about um love and he says, um, anytime there's a disaster, and I think Fred Rogers said this right after uh 9-11. He said, anytime there's a disaster, you know, there's the disaster, there's the evil. But don't forget to focus on the helpers. Watch people run in to help. And so something so evil is certainly revealed in horrible tragedies like that. But what else is revealed uh is is this love also can be revealed. Um, and you know, we think about this in all kinds of terrible, dark, awful, evil places that are truly evil. You know, nobody is denying the evil, but look, but look at also what uh comes to light at the same time. Um anyway. Um and then the last one, which is you know, for me the big one, um for for a lot of reasons, but he you know, he shows them all the kingdoms, um, and he and he said, and you know, biblically now scholars can tell you which ones they are and everything, and uh certainly one of them is Jerusalem. But anyways, and he just like says, you know, you know, take your power. Like this is what the Messiah is supposed to do, basically. This is what I mean about the this test is a reinterpretation of what Messiahship is, of what Jesus has come to do. Uh, and he basically, you know, there's a lot of people that look at this and say, like, my God, he could have done this, he could have um, you know, just put things right, and then we wouldn't have all this buffering or whatever, you know, like you know, we wouldn't have all this evil. Um, why didn't he do that? Uh, and so like we're gonna have to like siphon that out here because it's it's a there's a little trick that's that's a little bit more evident, I think, in Luke. So I'll just say that the variant in Luke says um that Satan uh or the devil claims to uh to you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has it has been given over to me. I give it to anyone I please. Um so uh it's a little bit clearer there. Um in this other one, um he just says, I'll give it to you if you fall down and worship me. Um and I think for me, and this is my interpretation, I would love to hear your guys' interpretation, but anytime you come empowered and like just make things right, you know the answer, um, and and whatever, you're kind of in some ways, I think, making a deal with the devil. There's always going to be these unforeseen consequences with all with all the with all the um and also you're not worshiping God at that point, you are worshiping your own ideas, your own thoughts about what should be. Um, which is not to say like never have ideas and like try to see them out, not at all. It's just to say that whenever you have a temptation towards like a totalitarian approach, where you, you know, a totalizing answer to everything kind of a thing, um, there you're making a pact in some sense, metaphorically, whatever, maybe literally, I don't know, uh, with the devil. And we just can see that every person who's ever been granted a great amount of authority was, you know, corrupted by it, however good they were. So, you know, we get this idea of like Jesus would obviously use it for good. He's a he's the son of God, he's a good person, he's his intentions are loving and good, but like the very means of absolute power would would somehow you know take that and warp it uh is the kind of idea that I get here. So what he rejects here is that um there's some totalizing solution uh to oppression, suffering, or or whatever. Not that you don't try to address those things in your life in a loving way, but that like the absolute authority from the throne uh is going to you know corrupt whatever you try to do if you if if that's what you do, no matter how good your intentions are at one point or whatever. So that's my interpretation of the last one.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

So what do you guys think? Well, you know, you um got the point you made uh you know, because maybe because we're just fresh from Easter season, but you uh like the whole you know temptation or testing. And I was thinking when I read this uh stuff, but just think about all the tests uh that are around the Easter season. Peter, the test of Peter. Which he fails. Yeah, which I yeah, right, which he passes in a way in a weird way. Yeah, yeah. Thomas, yeah. And uh, you know, and how this testing thing is uh you know very common uh during because of Easter season and and and whatnot. Because you when you made that talk, Marty, at the very beginning, and all the way through the temptations of Christ, the testing of Christ, how many tests there are and uh in the stories. Maybe he's setting the table for the for the apostles.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Yeah, for sure. Uh it's uh for the apostles and for us. You see, to to totally renegotiate this idea. I I I really like the idea. So so I'm my my thing, my my faith is in interpretation and and like and like conversations like this where you test your interpretations against other people and with other people. I think uh I had this very famous uh Hebrew uh Bible scholar uh at the University of Chicago, Michael Fishbane, and he used to say, you know, what makes a Jew a Jew is the people who will sit around and argue about Jewish things or Jewish scripture or whatever. And I really love that. I I mean this that's what makes me, you know, in whatever sense I'm a Catholic, in whatever sense I'm a Christian, it's because I argue about these things with Catholics. And and and that's and that's and I and it's so it's like this this testing of interpretations um uh to see, you know, like if we're getting closer or not. But the the the temptation, you know, according to this third test, is that one of us gets the final answer that's absolute or whatever, and then we just stick on that. And that that that to me is what what uh is sometimes called the sin of certainty, which is like very much what and we just see for although I don't know what we see, but I see so many problems that have come from just absolutes, total certainty and that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

So there were also Judas was tested, but he failed. The the disciples uh were tested uh to stay with me while I go over there and pray in the Garden of Gethsemane. They fell asleep. They failed. Right, right, that's right, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So uh yeah, I you look at a lot of these figures they They all failed.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

But uh Jesus promise was was uh was kept anyways. Yeah or through the failure.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

You're uh you know you're doing things. When you said that I was thinking of David. You know, here yeah he rose to the top. Here's one of Christ relatives. And he uh you know he thought at times it wasn't him that he was pulling all this all these great things off and that he was, you know, uh being the the difference maker. And yet, you know, it it wasn't until near the end of his life that he realized it wasn't him, you know. Uh that so many guys who are leaders uh uh get into that that role thinking they're divine or they're you know they're the difference maker. I I was just gonna finish reading the whole book on the popes and the during the Renaissance period. And they just ain't not gonna thought that they were gonna be the guy who uh you know really saved the church and set it on infection, you know. And it wound up, yeah, wound up kind of creating the Protestant Reformation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

I guess it's back to the the point you were making, and uh, you know, it's how you get into these uh well, so this is uh for many people a biblical uh uh for Jesus it may have been, uh, although he doesn't refer to it directly, a scriptural reference as well. So very famously in the beginning of um well, it's um yeah, so it's in um not Kings, uh it's not sort of like the beginning of Samuel, but it's also in Judges, uh towards the end of Judges. And and but anyways, there's a couple of uh passages in which uh people bemoan like um going with a king rather than having this sort of like confederation of judges or whatever. There's even like this sort of like speaking in um God's voice saying, like, you know, like if they want a king, I'll give them a king, but they're not gonna like it because he's gonna enslave their children and make them fight wars, he's gonna, you know, take taxes and all this kind of stuff. And so like it's like this this is the exact trade-off in this test number three that I'm talking about. So that so that it's like God acquiesces or whatever, um, but like it's a total mess from the beginning. So um, you know, uh Samuel anoints Saul or whatever, and it's unclear really about whatever what what Saul really did to like screw it up so bad. Uh there are things people can point to, but it's still like kind of contested. And then David, you know, comes in and yeah, he's super corrupt. All kind, I mean, some of the most wicked things you can imagine, he does. And and then I so like sort of the question was is like, is Israel trying to show the problems of kings? So is Jesus really just like referring to the problem of kings, the problem of rulership, uh, when he rejects this third, this third thing, you know? And then I mean, Solomon is no better, he's they're all worshiping idols and like, you know, horrible things. And um, and so it's just like um, yeah, the uh the trade-off, I guess you could say, all the unintended consequences you get by having somebody in absolute authority or power.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Exactly. Yeah, I I I never thought of it that way, but that's really a good uh good perspective, you know, on the the last one. Because uh, you know, you kind of say, well, uh I you know, I think I think it's really cool, and you pointed this out a little bit earlier, you know, about you say, Well, why are you tempting me? Yeah, why are you testing me? Yeah, you know, it's kinda like he didn't want to play the game and uh that whole thing, and yet many, many you know, rulers from the evil ones to the good ones, or the thought they were good, um all went through that test, you know, about and failed. Yeah, well, is it me? You know, uh yeah, yeah. How many times do you play the game, you know, of uh well if I was running the country, this is what I do exactly that exactly. This is what I would do, and yeah, you know, you play that uh game.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

But also there's a kind of like freedom that's allowed to to God's creation to like I don't know, like if God doesn't just come in and like just make it right and just wipe away all everything, you know, that that's that that would take away all the freedom of of human beings, including the freedom to screw up and do evil things. But also the the the basis of love is freedom. You cannot compel that or you know, that then it's not love, whatever it is. Um, and so and so you have to like hand over the the authority uh to your people. Um and so and so this is why you know the messiahship was not God coming in and just making everything right. Yeah, you were gonna say something though.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

And that's what Judas wanted them to do, you know, is to get him in there and kick everybody's ass, you know, and get them out of there. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

That kind of thing. That's right. Yep. Well, uh it's so so much in all of our hearts when we imagine, like you like you said, uh, if we only, you know, could get this, and then we would have whatever justice or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 49:35

Yeah, but you really see free will, you know, the the that uh we always used to talk about you have free will to do right and free will to do wrong.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Yeah, because God didn't come in and fix things for us. Yeah, yeah, he's kind of in it, he's in it with us uh as the lure to love, but he's not going to he can't compel us to love. So it's got to be a lure to love rather than uh a compulsion.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

So yeah, I mean, I was reading a book on World War II, and uh there were a bunch of soldiers said, Why don't God take care of Hitler? You know, why don't we have to do this? You know, and it was it was called the Good War, and uh it was uh you know all the reflections that people had. And uh they didn't want to go up and you know, yeah to fight the Nazis and stuff like that. And even right now we got evil guys, you know, just and you you have a tendency to say, where's God? You know, and that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

Well, and if and in so our faith is that in any situation, and this is this sounds really awful uh given a certain type of formulation, it can sound very awful, but uh you know, Herb brought up last time. Um who is the Saint Herb the Holocaust from the Holocaust? I forgot his name. I know there's Maximilian Colby, but there was another one that Herb brought up too.

SPEAKER_03 50:50

I forgot Francis Jackson? Yeah, so he was the he was the farmer that from that said no to joining the Nazi army. Right in the right, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

So here uh so here are two uh pretty pretty extreme examples of of people who were faced with the dark night, absolute evil. And even in that what appeared to be total darkness, there they could still hear or see God as a lure to love. So that love had not entirely been blotted out, and they were still had that option. They still had that choice, even though that choice had been severely, severely, severely reduced, they could still, uh, even in the darkest place, choose it. Um, and that's you know, that's our faith. I you know, like and like all the biblical figures, you know, that we just talked about, yeah, they had that choice, but many of them were not able to do it. Uh, and and thankfully God gave Peter a lot of second chances. So so like, so like as as foyable, as many foibles as he had, um, you know, he eventually um you know you know made the right decisions. Like even think about uh how Paul had to upbraid uh uh Peter about you know trying to keep you know kosher stuff after and and tables, people eating at separate tables and stuff like that. Peter still needed to be corrected all the time and and and and told you know what the more loving thing to do is. Um so you know what I mean? Like, so that's us. We're always we're all we we our faith is that somebody through some mechanism or mean is going to show us, you know, that we have that God is still there somewhere, usually as the option to to love in some kind of a way.

SPEAKER_01 52:47

So you know well that's why uh man for all seasons, I just think it's brilliantly written. Because Thomas Moore is sitting there with, you know, he could quite easily be, you know, say, okay, well, I don't give a you know go and do what you want. You know, and uh anytime these great temptations are uh put in front of us, and I don't know, I'd be pretty weak in some of these things too. If I had an easy bread, sure, I'm hungry, you know. Or uh, you know, oh you can make me the guy the uh you know the ruler of all, the decider of all. Yeah, right. I know what to do, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

I'm gonna make sure that guy doesn't get any you know, exactly, yeah, yeah. Punish all my enemies and blah blah blah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

Well, Paul had to be knocked off his horse. That's right. He thought he was doing right by putting the Christians into prison. That's what he thought was right. But uh so he he but he but he was knocked off his horse and showing that he was doing the wrong thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Yeah, and that's I mean that's part of our prayer. I mean, we don't we don't want to be corrected, uh, and usually when we are we like hate it, but you know, that's our faith that you know we as painful as it is, we'll be corrected, which is you know, brings me to like uh two kind of things. Uh you know, one is you know, Paul's little thing in Romans where he talks about, you know, if you find yourself, you know, in in a in a trial, uh, you know, suffering some kind of uh test or whatever, undergoing some kind of test, you know, be um grateful because it's going to bring discipline. So sometimes one of the things we get from our trials is is a kind of discipline. And I think it's the discipline of love, of looking for love even when it's hard to do that, being kind even when it's hard to be kind and all that kind of stuff, and failing for sure, but like picking ourselves back up if we, you know, if we have the next chance, then we take it and we try to, you know, do better or whatever. But like, um, and then he says, you know, and um, and then discipline um, you know, gives us hope. It changes the disposition of our character so that we're we're hopeful more often in more situations, including very difficult and dark ones. And then, of course, his last very famous saying is uh, or a part of that pericope is to say that um, you know, and hope doesn't disappoint. And I think that's right, because what what's being said there is it's not going to disappoint because you're right to hope. There is always hope. Uh, even and and you have to like build a certain character that's oriented towards hope uh so that so that you are whatever the situation is, as you face it, um, you know, you can see that there is something loving that can be done here. And that's what we put our hope in. But the other thing was the thing that you said about um Thomas More. Um, and this brings me back to Paul again, because Thomas, you know, died bearing witness uh to uh uh the law, uh to uh, you know, um uh and and the authority of the Pope and that kind of thing. And what's really uh interesting is that there are examples of both, uh breaking uh with things uh because of the law of love and keeping certain things because of the law of love. And I like Paul's two interesting examples. So the thing he upbraided Peter for, which I already said, you know, where they were ex, they were like, uh it's a little bit difficult to get a total handle on what the heck was going on, but it sounds like poor people weren't being allowed to eat uh at the table with richer uh Christians, and so that they weren't getting as much food or something like that. And and so Paul uh was like writing to say, no, you don't do that. You you you allow everybody the same amount of food, if you know, and and the rich, you know, are supposed to be, you know, the the rich need to like you know offer it to everybody, even if the even if there are those who show up without anything or whatever. So it's this like uh inclusivity. And and so what kind of like is what that's breaking with is a law that's sort of like you earn it, you get it, kind of a thing that's uh in a number of Jesus' parables, like about when Jesus goes out and you know, uh, or when Jesus talks about you know the business or the vineyard owner who goes out and hires people throughout the day, but then um each one gets the same wage, even though they haven't been working the same amount. So, you know, kind of what's being you know expressed here is this like um break with an economic law, I guess you could say, that you know, it's just a part built into us uh as human beings. And then, you know, there another great example in Paul is when he says to um, you know, he says, yeah, you're free from all this, uh, all these old laws, and uh, you know, there's only one law now, and that's and that's love, and you know, and and you know, forget all these like little dumb things. But then there was this uh argument that was going on about um should we um eat meat that's been sacrificed to idols or whatever at the table? And and Paul says, like, no, it's so really interesting that he says no, because like you would think like, well, law of love frees us from everything, so yeah, go ahead. And he says, no, because there are still people that would not be able to sit at that table with you, that they would be excluded from that table because you're you're doing this thing that scandalizes them. So in order to make them feel welcome, don't do that. And so it's got it's another really interesting way of like uh we're always like trying to figure out where the where the love is and and what what the loving thing to do is. And then and then again, um there's this problem that Paul had to address called anti-nominalism, which is uh or no mean the the word for is nomos, uh I can't remember how to say it in English. It's law. It means it's so it means like anti-law. Like so Paul's teachings were taken as like anti-the-law or against the law. And then there but there was a community, and right now I can't remember which one were like the mother, it was like a stepmom though, and the and the and like a son were like uh with each other, even though they had uh um, you know, because the husband had passed or something like that, and it was like scandalizing people in the community. And he was like, Yeah, we don't have to keep the law, but you need to like, you know, make sure they cut that out or kick them out or whatever. Uh, because you know, like we still have like this sort of like, first of all, concern about morality that and and our concern about morality has to do with with love. And so, like, if this so when I when I say like the law, Torah law is over, I don't mean that. I mean like there's a deepening sense of of law, which is the law of love. And so like that's not that that kind of behavior is not in line with that. And so like we still have to have rules. Um, so like loving doesn't mean like, oh, there's no rules, and loving doesn't also only mean only following the rules. It's it's it's it it's it's a it's a it's a kind of like uh tricky tricky thing that you have to discern uh in any given situation, like what's the more loving thing to do. So I know you're you're out of time, I think you gotta get going, but uh yeah, I can I can finish up.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:32

Herb was gonna say something, and then we no, I was gonna say the same thing Bob did. I think you're out of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Gotcha. Yep. I'm pretty good. Um, yeah, so I am out of time. Um did uh number four in this series. And also remember, uh, if you can, uh you know, you were you were talking about um getting a