Failure Is Freedom
I'm exploring why Generation X failed to get free, and how the concept of "authenticity" was turned into a sort of un-freedom.
Failure Is Freedom
Hermeneutic Circles: Annihilation
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Here is another example of Hermeneutic circles in action. Annihilation, both the book and the movie, are like David Tracy's "Classics" to me because they provide an inexhaustible wealth of possible interpretations, especially because they both deal so strongly with the ambiguity of identity, including the ambiguity of the apparently determinate nature of our genetic inheritance. My partner Char and I have a horror podcast in which this episode first appeared that deals with ideas around the vertigo of irreducible ambiguity in the Horror genre. https://www.buzzsprout.com/2509184 My sister Andrea who works professionally as a scientist joins us for this episode's exploration of the slipperiness of the material reduction to "scientific facts."
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2565712 This is the link to my podcast "Deep Calls to Deep: Reading Together," which explores the possibilities for hermeneutic circles more thoroughly.
https://youtu.be/nqaZp3-AK4Q and this is the YouTube link to the episode if you'd like a visual of us hashing out Annihilation.
We get deep into the weird genetic refractions of Alex Garland's very loose take on Jeff Vandermeer's Annihilation. Area X seems to be a place of infinite possibilities, except for the possibility of remaining untouched by the mysterious, churning flows of organic codes that produce mixed bodies of unknowable intention. What is the intention of this alien presence in what seems to be a swamp somewhere on the Florida coast of the Gulf of Mexico? Maybe, it doesn't have one. Join us as we think about the human proclivity for self-destruction, the ambiguity of identity, and how the intentions of organic bodies arise from the non-intention of inorganic processes.
Baddass vibes mixed by James Reeves of Midnight Radio: jamesreeves.co for the intro and outro music of most episodes, I mix the mixtapes that I post here.
Hello.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I gotta I gotta cut it down because I guess it's a problem. I'll just get out. One, two, three.
SPEAKER_00Hello, and welcome to the Desire for Horror Podcast, the show where we review horror movies and discuss what these films say about the nature of human desire. I'm Charla, and with me always is Marty. How are you doing today, Marty?
SPEAKER_04I'm great.
SPEAKER_00I'm doing good. Doing great. And we have a special guest with us today, our returning visitor, our returning guest, uh Andrea, your sisters joining us.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for having me again, guys. Alright, let's get started. So, this evening we are going to talk about 2018's Annihilation.
SPEAKER_01Alright.
SPEAKER_00Um, so just want to go around, get your guys' just preliminary first thoughts on this film. Uh, Andrea, we'll start with you because this was your first time seeing this movie. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_02That is right. Yes, my first time. Um, you know, I actually even commented to um my husband about this that I at the end of the movie, I was like, I don't know if I like that or not. Okay, it's just because it took me a second like to really think about it. I was so I it wasn't like an immediate reaction of, you know, was that something I loved or not? And then I, you know, mold on it. Um and actually I liked it a lot more after I did some research um for the podcast um too. So then I started like teasing out some of the themes and that kind of thing. So I would say my first reaction was um like confused. Really? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I could see that, yeah, yeah. Okay, Marty, you're next. Because you you are an expert in this film because not only have you seen this movie before, but you've read the book, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's part of a uh well, it was originally a three trilogy, very long one. Uh, and Annihilation is just the first part. Um, and yeah, I've I've read all of them though. The only thing I haven't read is the um, there was another one that came out in 2017 uh that was kind of like a prequel, which is I don't know, sounds like kind of a typical move, but I I've heard that it's actually very good uh to to the thing. But anyways, I I I really love the book and uh the whole trilogy, and I really love uh the movie. So um I yeah, confusion is definitely appropriate since um you know there's all this fusion of gene and uh very you know confusing results, uh gene sequences and whatnot, the uh refractory patterns of uh coding or something like that.
SPEAKER_02Lots of muting mutating.
SPEAKER_04Lots of mutating, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yes, a lot of refracting, a lot of mutating. Yeah. How about you, this is the second time I've seen this movie. Uh the first time I actually watched it with Marty. Uh, but I've heard about this movie for years. Um, just never got an opportunity to watch it. And I didn't really think it, consider it like a horror film. Uh, I definitely think it falls in the realm of more of a sci-fi horror. But because we are talking about things in nature, I also think it fits in this category of nature horror as well. Uh, but no, I I absolutely love this movie. It's it's it's very high on my list. Um I yeah, it's it's a great, it's a great film. Really good.
SPEAKER_04There's uh some uh debate I I saw in well actually I don't I don't know how much of a debate, but I would say most people call it cosmic horror. Uh yeah, it's got it's got I can see that HP Lovecraft, uh the color of what was that? What's that HP Lovecraft?
SPEAKER_00It's called the color the color out of space, the color out of space, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right, where like it you know lands like kind of meteor right and like creates a zone of weirdness, uh whatever. So yeah, um, but uh I do think it totally fits with nature because it's it's all about yeah, uh nature. Like yeah, it is right inner workings of nature, so yeah, we're we're doing c we're doing nature horror, so yeah, I'm with that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think it would have fit good in sci-fi horror as well, or cosmic horror, like you said. So it's it's it's genre crossing, right? Yeah, all right, so we'll get started. Uh, release date of this film is February 23rd, 2018. It's directed by Alex Garland. I don't know if you guys are familiar with his work, but he directed uh Ex Machia from 2014 and 2024 Civil War, which was an excellent movie. I don't know, Andrea, have you seen that film? Have you seen Civil War? Um, I have not. I heard it was really good though. It is really good. If you get an opportunity, definitely watch it. X Machia was, in my opinion, it was okay, Marty. Have you seen uh you've seen that one too, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, I thought it was good too. Um pretty interesting AI sort of themes in that one. Yeah, uh for sure. And Civil War, yeah, I really enjoyed that, especially since uh the soundtrack was so badass for Civil War. Suicide was the band. They were and they had it totally cranked in the theater. I was like, wow, this sounds incredible! Like dudes on like horrible late 70s synthesizers and drum machines, because that's when Suicide was making their music, and it just sounded incredible. So anyway, yeah, I I I yeah, I re-reanimated my fanship. Um, but anyways, let's not talk about things that I'll do. Yeah, suicide.
SPEAKER_02Did Alex Garland uh did he also do like 28 Days, I think?
SPEAKER_00So he did, I think he was a writer on 28 Days, um, if I'm not mistaken, but yeah, yeah, he he's part of that. Uh that was primarily a Danny Boyle uh film, but Alex Garland did help uh write parts of that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04I also did one of my favorite movies of all time together. Danny Boyle and him have worked on other things. They they they did that Jim Carrey one, the Sunshine of the Spotless Mind together.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, they did. That's one of my favorite movies.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's a great movie. Super great.
SPEAKER_00Um, and and Alex Garland also uh did the screenplay. Uh he wrote the screenplay for this movie because this movie, like we said, is based on a novel by the same name by Jeff Vandermeer.
SPEAKER_04So uh Yeah, he said that uh he he didn't want to uh redo it exactly. He wanted he said he read it one time and then he told supposedly got permission from Jeff Vandermeer once they bought the thing from him. He just decided not to read it again, and he just wanted to go for the feeling of uh of of what he got when he was reading the book originally. And it is a very cool phone because I I did read the whole series before I even knew there was um gonna be a movie. It was popular when it first came out, and I think it's like probably this Def Vandermeer's most popular book for sure. Put him on the map, so to speak, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Did you get the same feeling?
SPEAKER_04Um, I guess how did he do from his I always I mean I always get better vibes, frankly, from um books, but uh yeah, I because uh I I just because of how I am, like I am kind of like Spectrum, uh especially with my ADHD. And so like movies just tend to like be too much for me. I so I just in general prefer books. But I, you know, still, yeah, I got I got a I got a cool feeling. I mean, uh I guess it was uh Jeff Vandermeer who said he didn't get anything from Stalker, which was this uh Tarkowski uh famous movie about a zone, uh and like a lot of lore around that. Uh, but I wondered if maybe uh it would be hard for me to believe that um Alex Garland didn't get anything from the zone because it was like, I mean, from yeah, the whole from um Stalker, I mean, because it's the same kind of thing, but like, you know, crossing over into like this like semi-magical place or whatever. But um, you know, that's I mean, that's the that's the genre bending thing there too. It's like in both Alex Garland and in the movie. I'm trying to remember where now in the movie, but in Alex Garland, there's a lot of occult stuff going on too. Probably way more than in uh no, sorry, not Alex Garland. I meant to say Jeff Vandermeer. There's a lot of occult stuff going on, and the speculation actually is that it was started by like this occult organization that it gets it's really the whole the whole the whole zone, which is not called the shimmer in in the book, it's called the brightness. And so um I think shimmer is actually a cooler name, and it makes a lot of sense when they get to the border uh in the movie. It's kind of used. Yeah, really, really cool. And I mean, I like the idea of like the shimmer getting like in you and recoding you, yeah, and mixing up your DNA and stuff is pretty interesting.
SPEAKER_02I haven't seen all the episodes. I just you know kind of peeked into um Stranger Things with uh the kids, but that kind of had that that feeling as well. And I wondered how much Stranger Things borrowed from everywhere, didn't they? Yeah, they did. They definitely did. Yeah, even some of that, you know, at the very end of the movie, um, where just some of that artwork of the of the tunnel reminded me uh very much of Stranger Things. Um the upside, was it the upside down other whatever?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, the upside down. I think the inside out something. Upside down, inside out.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the um I'll I'll maybe I'll talk about it more later, but the the biggest thing that was cut out. Uh there there is a tunnel still, kind of like in that lower part of the lighthouse, I think, in the movie. But like there's it's a much bigger thing in in the book. It's it's like the centerpiece of the book almost, actually. It's like a reverse uh living uh tower, they call it. And it does like burrows down into the ground. Um, so it's it's and it's a really wild place with yeah, like writing that is like floral on the wall. It's like it sounds sort of like cryptic and like apocalyptic, and you know, it's like mostly nonsense, but it there's a whole big thing in that. That's the the centerpiece of the book. But uh maybe I'll maybe I'll say a little bit more about that later. But the it's really there's there's some basic concepts that are like taken from by the movie, but the book is almost to me it's like it, but plot-wise and things that happen. No, no, almost nothing like it. Yeah. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Cool. So yeah, like if you you know, we talked about that when we watched the movie together, you know. So just jump in uh at any point with differences from the movie to the book, because I'm interested to I'll try to limit it uh into the stuff that matters, but uh you know, because I know there's a lot of excessive sometimes, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02You are you're a little yes, yes, you are now all right, let's jump into it.
SPEAKER_00Uh, cellular biologist professor and former U.S. Army soldier Lena, played by Natalie Portman, sits under interrogation. She's the sole survivor of a doomed expedition into a mysterious zone known as the shimmer, which I think is appropriately named for what it looks like. It does look like a shimmer.
SPEAKER_02It's like an oil slick, slash. I mean, there's there's some definite like artistic techniques there to make it um, you know, I think unique. Um, definitely. It's like, I mean, I've no I've got the northern lights behind me, but it's a little northern light, right? A little, you know, um, you know, so you can kind of like oh, and like the like the like the sheen of a bubble, you know, like when a bubble is um expanding.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, Jeff Vandermeer uh when he did cite what his inspirations were, he's a Floridian, by the way, uh a golf Floridian. And one of the big influences for him was the Exxon Valdez oil spill.
SPEAKER_02Oh, very good oil. Yeah, there's also like a theme in here that you know we can talk about later too, but like of that not all like they kind of make the mutations not all bad or like evil, like there's beautiful. So like finding like finding that beauty in you know something that we would have you know see as a bad force. Yeah, definitely.
SPEAKER_04Oil really was bad, but um well he I mean he thought it yeah, he he thought of it quite differently where there was no intention, uh kind of in the movie, but uh Vandermeer thought of the zone as like um purifying he he he was imagining it as like uh cleaning the uh the after the oil spill, like ridding it of toxins or something like that, which is really weird and interesting because it's not at all like that in the movie, I don't think. But he was imagining like just Mother Nature almost like uh purifying itself, cleaning itself. And the and the biologist in the book is actually one of the things she studies is like uh bacteria that like metabolizes plastics because he was very interested in you know cleaning cleaning up the environment some some kind of way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and that is a real that's a real thing, you know, that we've uh been um actually this is one of my projects I've been looking into too is that they're like bacteria that can basically digest you know plastic. It's just a fascinating um science field, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so you know, for him the zone was digesting like just all the toxins of the Gulf. As we know, like yeah, the the Gulf has seen its fair share of toxins, that whole region down there. So yeah. And it's not named in the book or the movie that that's where they are, but it's like pretty clear that's where they are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're in Florida.
SPEAKER_04Uh three years, or or or or our skaters, you know, they're gonna be like Mississippi or something like that.
SPEAKER_00No, it they're they're no the like the legit next line is um it tells you where this takes place. So three years earlier, a meteor struck the St. Mark's lighthouse in Florida's state Saint Mark's National Wildlife Refugee. So it is in Florida where this happened. So that makes sense, right?
SPEAKER_04And that and that's actually where where uh Vandermeer uh got a lot of information from. Apparently, it's a real forest reserve, and he got a lot of inspiration from being there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. Uh since then, the shimmer has been steadily expanding, swallowing everything in its path. Numerous expeditions have entered its boundaries, but none have returned. Uh, except for Lena's husband, Kane, played by the very cute Oscar Isaac. I say that because I recently just watched there's a Netflix series called Beef. I don't know if you guys have seen it. I know you haven't, Marty, but he's in that and he is adorable. Like he starts out, I don't know, it just as the as the series goes on, he just gets a little a little bit more adorable each episode. So it's like I was like, oh, that's Oscar Isaac. I just watched him in Annihilation. But so that's why I say that. Marty's looking like I'm never gonna watch that show.
SPEAKER_02He was also in Star Wars, I think. One of the like, yeah. I don't remember which one. Yeah, yeah. Um, and then yeah, different one than Natalie Portman was in. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay, cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so definitely not the Phantom Menace, like the the the seven, eight and nine ones. Yeah, she was in one, two, and three. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, but yeah, he definitely not a lot of scenes and not a lot of lines in this movie, but you know, he plays Lena's husband. Um so after vanishing for a year, Kane suddenly reappears at home with no memor no memory of where he's been. Um his brief returns turn his brief return turns disturbing when he begins coughing up blood, prompting Lena to call for help.
unknownUh-huh.
SPEAKER_00Only for both of them to be intercepted by a shadowy government force and taken into a secret research facility. So I I remember the first time I saw this movie, and it's like this is where it kind of gets like, I mean, there's scary parts in this movie, but this was a little scary, like when he just comes home, and you already know, like when he just shows up, you're like, something's not right here. Like this is this is this is creepy. Um, and then when she's questioning him and he has no idea where he's been, and then you see him, they just focus in on that glass of water, man, and you're just like, okay, here it comes. And he does, he takes that a sip of water and immediately starts convulsing and throwing up blood. Blood in the water, and like yeah, like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So I was actually surprised that he availed like as much blood as he starts spitting up and he's convulsing in the in the ambulance. I'm like, well, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I bet you always like, oh, well, he's gone.
SPEAKER_02Right. It's not gonna be and she's lucky.
SPEAKER_00Like, I was also thinking the first time I saw this movie, like, he's got something. Like, I'm thinking, you know, viral.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking back to like the outbreak scene. Remember where we were like, so I was like, no, wait, he doesn't look right. Don't kiss him. Don't kiss him. Don't don't go there.
SPEAKER_00Right. So at this secret research facility, Kane is placed in intensive care while Lena is questioned by psychologist Dr. Ventress, played by Jennifer Jason Lee. Dr. Ventress reveals plans for a new scientific mission into the shimmer. And Lena volunteers to go, even though she knows, you know, that it's dangerous, I guess. You know, I mean, Dr. Ventress tells her that all of these people have disappeared, basically except for her husband, the only person that's come back. So what do you guys think about that? Like, what are your guys' thoughts about Lena volunteering to go into the shimmer?
SPEAKER_02I I thought there was a really interesting, you know, thing that I read and found that that maybe, you know, looking at her motivation, like why did she go? Was it really that she was that desperate to help her husband? Was it because she was sad and loved her husband? But then as the movie continues on, we find out that she's actually probably more driven by guilt, um, you know, and this kind of desperate um, you know, sense of um, you know, she wronged him. Um feels bad about it. So um I I thought that was really interesting because then it kind of feeds into then the other uh crew members. Like I think they get you know, further as they get into the shimmer, they start revealing theirs, but you can already get some of their story um as their motivation because I think that they had to have some kind of um yeah, other things, because that is that it's also when they have um when they when they start talking about it as a suicide mission, right? And so they have that um interesting quote of like Dr. Ventress, right? So she says almost none of us commit suicide and almost all of us self-destruct. And so then you find out like what are what are all their self-destructive motivations and behaviors there.
SPEAKER_04So um yeah, that's a major theme in this in the in the um movie that's not quite so much in the book is death drive, period. Like, and that's actually I actually that's how I interpret the ending of the story, which we'll get to later. But yeah, you're gonna see it throughout. There isn't quite, I mean, there isn't quite the same emphasis on on self-destruction. And actually, the the um in some ways uh the the zone is and and the and its mutations are even more positive. There's some positive ones uh in the in the movie, but it's even it's even more positive. It's it's it's in the in the in the it's there's ambiguity for sure. There's like but like there but like there's even more um I don't know sort of like celebration of of of this change um that's happening to the world or whatever. Which which we like, I mean I should mention that that's that is one of the things that's a little hard to take, especially since I know that you know Vandermeer uh and and I guess um uh Alex Garland too are like really hardcore atheists. And so the the the di the it is important that this whatever this is that's happening is not intended or directed or anything like that. So like it's gotta be it's gotta be somehow like um yeah, like uh materialist would imagine evolutionary processes like as chance. And so like as we know that like almost everything winds up in cancer. Like so like most most most essentially what cancer is, right?
SPEAKER_02It's mutation without right.
SPEAKER_04There are there's very, very, very, very few like genetic screwball-y shit that like is going to result in anything good. And you know, even I think at around this time, and he didn't mention it as an influence, but I it seems like it was, but this is when CRISPR really started getting into the news as like this very hopeful thing. I know when the when the book was written. And in our family we have uh Huntington's Korea, not on our direct family, but in in our cousins. And it was it was one of these things that you know became very hopeful at the time. Oh it's one gene that just needs to be fixed. And a lot of that stuff just hasn't panned out at all. Genes are way more complicated than than than than than we than we ever could imagine. So imagining that something even functional could come out of mixing up DNA scratch is just is is just I mean it's just for me right yeah exactly it just it just points again to like how there's a there was this kind of at least misunderstanding that's really starting to be directed I mean addressed more and more on science that like there has to be something else some other something that allows things to you know sequence uh you know I I had hesitate to use the word design but just because we're talking about intention or whatever but that there has to this is where epigenetics comes in and all that kind of stuff but I don't want to get too far into that but like I'll just say that like if you had a zone which is like more like the stalker zone in the Tarkovski movie they really were like uh exposed to chemicals during the filming and a bunch of them died from from cancer.
SPEAKER_02So like real like a real zone where like there was this like loosening of uh of the you know replication of of the uh of RNA sequencing or whatever would just be death basically yeah if if if radiation was that strong right I mean like to say I think they kind of allude to that that it's there's radioactive you know something going on and there or um well they say it's refractory like somehow it's like within the zone like it it it's it's not just refract it's not just refractory zone for light so that you know like so a refractory zone in light is like you have these two I don't know lights and then in this in the middle is where the refractory zone's gonna be they're gonna form like all kinds of waves like going through a prism right so that you have right yeah that's so it's not actual like that that's that's where like he's you I think I hope that the actually the the um director was pretty careful I I think about using a lot of real scientific terms but then right then he got into more of like an analogy I think that the refracting back was sort of an analogy um yeah it sound it's kind of hard to tell in there because they they do say like refraction you know like maybe refraction causing the mutation but I think they're um kind of just I don't know using that sort of as a loose metaphor. Yeah I I that that's how I took it too yeah um so the team that Lena's gonna join is rounded out by Cassie a geomorph more a geomorphologist which what is that does anybody know I guess I probably should have looked that up before but a geomorphologist yeah she's forms forms of like earth you know shapes I mean in the in the book it's a surveyor uh so uh yeah that's what they so yeah I don't know it's the replacement surveyor surveyor with a fancier name I guess geomorphologist so that's Cassie played by Tuva uh Novia and Anna a paramedic played by Gina Rodriguez and Josie a um physicist played by Tessa Thompson so we got our five science ladies and a paramedic was it like Gina the uh yeah a paramedic there I thought it was a mix of like I know occupations because I could kind of seem like if you're like developing a an elite team or something like that. But um I mean in a way then as the movie goes on I'm like oh okay well actually they're you know skills.
SPEAKER_00I mean I would you would need a paramedic if you're going into a situation like this right emergency medical yeah you know yeah yeah we'll throw her we're she's a science lady we'll throw her in there too yeah and she's Jane the Virgin um too so like oh that's right that's right that's I think actually at the same time so we were like in like the last season or something like that when they okay um released this movie. So I knew she looked yeah I was like she does look familiar. I know I've seen her in something else too but yeah yeah and Tessa Thompson I she's been in a lot of stuff too um uh Cassie and she she didn't really look familiar to me but I'm sure she was in other stuff so um so yes we have our we have our five ladies going into the shimmer. Uh so once inside their equipment begins to fail of course almost immediately um cutting them off from all of the outside world uh the landscape reveals itself as a warped ecosystem of hybrid life plants and animals fuse together and reshape into uncanny forms uh among the strangest sights are deers with flowering anter antlers which I love I mean I will have to say that there are some beautiful images in this movie and one of them is definitely when we see the deer with the with the flower antlers I mean it's just it's gorgeous. And then another one not so not so nice is an albino alligator with rows of shark life teeth that nearly kill Josie so it's a very kind of tense harrowing scene. That played on my fears of the of shit coming out of water that oh yeah dark we've talked about that before is sort of the the cloudy water I'm like oh okay well yeah one of those um yeah and it takes a lot of bullets to kill um the main you know bad creatures and these are right um eaty creatures yeah yeah and like Marty pointed out because he always likes these kind of shots when we get like the inside view so we we get an inside mouth shot of that LV of that yeah the I mean I I want to know for real and it sounds like the first one is Spielberg did Spielberg invent the inside of the beast mouth shot I want to know maybe I don't know we'll have to look that up at any rate yeah some some listeners shouting at us right now as they're listening to yeah they're like they know the answer I'm like oh I know I always well what like when we're in the middle of recording I'm like I probably shouldn't look that up so yeah so pretty scary stuff but also some you know beautiful images as well um so at an abandoned military outpost the group discovers footage of Kane's expedition a chilling video shows Kane slicing open a soldier's abdomen exposing like kind of like and his intestines are kind of like writhing and slithering and stuff.
SPEAKER_04It's oh pretty gross I don't really get how genetic refractory or mixing of any kind would result in that but anyways slithering intestines.
SPEAKER_00I don't know your your intestines is merging with snakes or worms or something and then it's like I don't know yeah amazing yeah but yeah I don't know what it was cool for sure.
SPEAKER_02Yeah it's like the guy didn't bleed that much they're like peeling back his stomach and um yeah a little bleedy but I was like okay that just made it grosser. It's a little graphic yeah yeah um nearby they find the soldier's corpse uh now overtaken by a sprawling self-sustaining colony of lichen and so I did have to look up lichen it's like a combination of like algae and fungi I guess um which yeah you'll usually see it in like the rocks or like lichen can be really beautiful too and it was I think in this was like a you know fantasized um right kind of those awesome colors but um yeah yeah I think lichen is pretty much it's it's known for being able to grow anywhere and it's extremely hardy right um it's one of the like uh first um decomposers or or you know things that you'll see in certain environments um but yeah but they had like in a really that was another um sprinkling of of some was gruesome too because there was body coming out of it but um the design of the lighting itself was like um a really cool chalk painting or something yeah yeah it was really it was really cool but yeah it's it was cool except for the body part part that wasn't so cool the reverse tower in the book the uh writing that's being scrawled on the wall is like written in like something like lichen basically some fungal yeah anyway we do see more lichen like in the in the lighthouse at the end I think it's like all over like it's kind of all over the wall and it's like really awesome colors like there's like pink and like orange and yellow and stuff yeah yeah yeah uh so that night Lena and Dr.
SPEAKER_00Ventress discussed humanity's tendency towards self-destruction so this is what we were talking about before Marty you said the the quote there what was the quote again about uh oh that um almost none of us commit suicide and almost all of us self-destruct yes that's what it was yeah sorry oh yeah yeah that was you andrew sorry I no no no no that's that quote but you're saying about death drives which is that's what that death drives yeah exactly yeah um their conversation is cut short when a gruesome mutant bear attacks dragging Cassie into the darkness and Lena later finds what she believes is her remains so pretty scary shit like that when that bear pops out of nowhere it's it's it's goes to the fence like it chomps through the fence right and then like but they don't know what it is yet right right yeah I there was a scene the scene where uh Lena uh goes to by herself to find Cassie's body and I'm like what are you doing like why are you going in this forest I have no idea by yourself like why is that have to be your solo mission um it's it felt like one of those horror scene movies where you're just like no girl why are you going yeah like you should be getting out of the haunted house instead of going into the haunted house even further right yeah very noble of you to try to go find her body but um at least take a buddy something yeah exactly um might be helpful too to think about some of their self-destructive behaviors like yeah that's true right what is I mean I don't know but like I because I can't remember them all but I remember that the paramedic uh was a heroin addict or something like that is that right she yeah she was an uh an addict and then yeah um well you know about Lena's like infidelity um yeah and then Ventress has uh a terminal cancer like yeah she's got cancer yeah um oh and then Josie does self-harm so she's got scars that's right right right yeah and Cassie lost a child Cassie lost a child right yeah right yeah so so like the one that's probably well they're all death drive but the one uh you know that's real close to like what Freud was thinking about was you know uh her blowing up her life with her husband or whatever um and it's like really clear that she doesn't even know why she does it like she's just like like so it's just like that's what death drive is it's like this you know like this like unconscious you know drive to like undermine ourselves um so I and and I also thought it was interesting that um the the snake tattoos was is that auraborus or whatever that thing is called they in from Egyptian mythology remember they all have that like well not I don't know if they all do I think they all do uh Lena does it on her arm right somebody somebody had the tattoo but then they all had a piece of it wasn't that what it was like I think there was somebody who is that what can't like the head of it because he had a huge tattoo in his shoulder this is a mutant creature tattoo yeah like somebody because it was like some mixed up animal thing looking yeah like somebody originally had the tattoo but then as time goes on they all got had a little bit of piece of that tattoo like the tattoo was in that atmosphere somewhere had got refracted and then was was mutated back onto this was mutating back onto them or something.
SPEAKER_04Well I I should say that this is like how uh I don't know death drive is related to the continuation of life uh this snake is eating its own tail I guess kind of famously so I mean uh that's what was happening in his intestines too right I mean it wasn't it never showed a head yeah uh yeah a tail rather right yeah yeah it's consuming itself continuous yeah yeah it's so it's yeah it's kind of self-destructing but I mean the way it was understood in ancient mytho ancient Egyptian mythology is like at least as far as I understand was like the cycle of life of like rebirth and like whatever so it was like it was seen as more positive but you can see the connection between self-destruction because I did is it the book or just or is it the movie too where they talk about how within the cells there's like this self-destruct kind of like drive or something right so there's like like all of our cells have telemerase so they were saying like you know that that's um inherently like the the destructive force that's within us you know too so we're um like everything you know gets detected except for cancer.
SPEAKER_02So like you know when a cell like that that mutation and then that um you know splitting of cells to create a new cell um is sort of the the eternal life um factor that they can see like they know that's it it never dies. Like they they were basically saying and I there might even be a quote in there about like the cell never dies. And you know it's true because like if if it you know continues to split into a new um you know cell um and then there was kind of an interesting point about that though too like so if we all have this like telemerase that's built into us right that that causes us to ultimately die or is a destructive force of stopping of this mutation then um is that you know how to connect that to that lack of of free will you know that we have like that that is one force within us that we don't have you know there's no control over that is programmed um within us and it's new it's like back to your point already about like it's sort of a religious aspect I guess that to that too it seems like it's a very impassive force in this like there is no feeling or it's just saying it's just doing what it does. That's all like this the sales take is that they do what they do. But I think that the the um author director of this you know movie kind of made that point um or again saying like you don't have a choice like all of this is not your choice.
SPEAKER_04Yeah I know yeah well and it was also who was it uh Shar was it Kane reading the I all of a sudden I can't remember the name of the book. So so we get yeah so we get many flashbacks uh while all of this is going on right we're getting flashbacks of Kane and Lena's life which Marty absolutely hated he said it's just so different from the book but yeah there's so it's it's good I guess and as I think about it it fits that they would have a decent relationship and then she would just blow it up and I think that's what the flashbacks are trying to show us right but it's not a decent relationship she's she's very like science uh like obsessed kind of weirdo science girl who like grew up like looking at like best pools and like title pools and like just weird things and was like really into her own thing or whatever. And that's why the relationship is not that great. But like um it has nothing to do with that that other thing.
SPEAKER_00But I'm sorry Sher the I still can't remember the name of the oh yeah so yeah so yeah I was just saying like during this during this film we get a lot of different flashbacks uh scenes with uh Lena and Kane and and one in particular stands out where Kane and Lena are sitting on the sofa and Kane is reading the book The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks and that is a story of an African American woman who true story right uh of an African American woman whose cancer cells the Gila cells uh were taken without consent in 1951 leading to major medical breakthroughs while her family remained in poverty and unaware so there is a oh I'm sorry Charlotte I was just gonna say they just won a lawsuit. Um I don't know yeah yeah yeah and there is a really good documentary um on um probably well it was back on when there was just HBO right so it's probably on HBO Max now but uh called the immortal life of Henrietta Lex and it's you know it but we you it's really in depth and they talk to members of her family and it's actually pretty uh like heart wrenching like I was crying for most of the documentary but it is a really good story.
SPEAKER_04Um so yeah I mean it's point about the the immortality of the cell that was that was that was what made me think about it.
SPEAKER_02So right right yeah yeah and that's that's the subject that was brought up a lot during those trials you know too is that um like um Henrietta's living still through like you know like the cells that are like that that is um a living vertebra that um I mean and and you're right Charlotte that those were I mean those cells are used in research like um just an incredible list of um you know discoveries and um you know life saving medicines and stuff like that but the family's point um and I think what they ultimately wanted is that you know she she didn't give consent for that and her family didn't get consent from it and they got no benefits from it you know exactly she died of her you know cancer right she yeah yeah right yeah so yeah it's interesting um and I don't know if that is something that's in the book Marty or did you think Alex Garland just put it in the movie what do you what it's is that in the book is there any mention of this of that novel no no no no no no yeah that was that was that was definitely put in by Alex Garland and uh I'll have to try to think of it but he put another book in there at the beginning that I saw and now I can't remember.
SPEAKER_04Oh they were they were both very pointed uh like that I mean the other thing I'll say is that like Freud had a kind of a funny theory about um about death drive related to this he he thought that like just like the energetic you know flow and vibration of like organic matter like you know there was like this like leftover longing to be inorganic again because it was just too life was just like too much or something like that. He kind of he ditched that theory but he was just he was just trying to figure out like where does this desire to like kill yourself not and and again it's just like the quote that Andrea said it's not like actual suicide but it's like all these things we do to make sure that we die one way or another or screw our lives up because that's what he was looking at. He was Freud was in particular looking at people coming back from World War I but um you know and just other people who were like blowing up their lives for reasons he could not understand and like why are people doing this you know so anyways yeah but it turns out it's all science y it's just some shit in your cells that forces you to do it.
SPEAKER_00Hormones it's always hormones right exactly yeah okay so as the team presses on Josie uh she's studying the plant life that has begun to take on humanoid shapes so this is another uh scene in this movie that I think is absolutely gorgeous where we have these like they start out as like tree roots coming out of the ground and turn into these beautiful human looking flower arrangement kind of things. So um it's really it's really it's really pretty.
SPEAKER_04Yeah I mean well I mean I forget what she says but it's just like I think they were using
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So this is where we get the the the the she theorizes. So this is where we get to talk about uh Josie theorizes that the shimmer behaves like a prism, uh reflect refracting not just light but DNA itself, blending and altering everything within it. So this is where we get the major talk about refraction and being like a prism.
SPEAKER_04Um and then she says something though, like she doesn't want to face it or fight it. Like I didn't I didn't know it's later.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's later when she says that.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay. And I I was just reminded uh of uh Ovid's metamorphosis here. Uh that famous scene of um what's the name of the plant, the narcissist? Or no, I'll I'll think of it later, but like somebody transforms into a tree um in in in in Ovid's metamorphosis. So, anyways, yeah, I can't remember now.
SPEAKER_00Think about it and come and come back to us.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't matter, actually. It's Group from Avengers. That's who it was.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there we go. It's Group from the Avengers, right? Um uh so when Anna um notices her her own body is beginning to change, there's a scene where she's looking at her like fingers and she can see her fingerprints start to change, which is really cool. Uh well, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Identity questions of this argument.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Uh she immediately becomes paranoid at that point. Like her paranoia takes uh over. Um, and then she restrains the others at gunpoint, accusing Lena of murder. So she thinks Lena killed Cassie. Um, and her breakdown is interrupted by the sound of Cassie's voice crying for help. So she gets drawn to that, right? She goes out, she's guess she's trying to look for Cassie. But in the meantime, the fucking bear comes back, right? And this shit, so Okay, I'm gonna see that in my nightmares. Like so this is actually, and this is how I heard about this movie, Annate uh, um, oh my god, I forgot the name of the movie. Um, Annihilation. Jesus. Before I even saw, before I saw the movie, this is how I heard about the movie because this scene, this scene that we're getting ready to talk about, is on the list of uh one of the scariest scenes in movies, right? The list of a hundred scariest scenes. I don't remember what number it is, but this is on that list, and I have to agree with that. This scene is so scary. So this mutant bear comes back, right? And it is like crying or like making this noise, but it's in Cassie's voice. And at one point, first off, the bear looks weird. Yeah, it looks like kind of like a humanish kind of skull face, yeah, it's like a skull face, but if you look very closely, you can actually there's one there's one point where the the bear turns his head and you can see kind of like Cassie's face within that skull, right? So Cassie, I guess, has like got somehow got into this bear's DNA after it attacked her, is is what I'm assuming, right?
SPEAKER_02Like her last, like her final moment of of terror and pain. And I think that kind of plays on, I mean, there's there's one of those fears, right, that we have too, that like is a human, like a universal human thing that like somehow our last out of our last moments, you know, will be like all that our legacy is. Yeah. Um for some reason that that scene too made me think of um, you know, sort of like that impression of Cassie in there or whatever, and like capturing that that moment of intense, you know, emotion. Um like I always I I think of that when I go to like places that you know something really bad has happened, or you know, um like I don't know, just like we live in those sense where you like somehow it captures like the essence of like that terrible thing happening. Um and uh you know, I I remember I did talk to um I think it was our our mom uh Marty about this, you know, to see like you know, can can something can be is that supposition of like your your emotion or you know your your consciousness screaming out or being so powerful um and those kind of like at the death moment, you know, too that does something linger, um, is something you know left behind or absorbed into the inorganic or the organic material you know around you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
SPEAKER_02Or a mutant bear, you know.
SPEAKER_00Or a mutant bear, right?
SPEAKER_04It's like a well again with the identity bit, the voice is associated so much with a person, but here it is disembodied in another body. It is definitely something though that it's one of those things you could try to, you know, a person's voice, I guess, in some ways is related to, you know, their genetic makeup, where they come from, whatever, but it's just so singular uh and identifies a person so um, I don't know, uh in some kind of essential way that it's it's it's kind of it's the I think the uncanny effect of it is is just to have that disconnected from from the person whose voice it is. And um also it's just like it's just it's your first indication. Obviously, that couldn't be you know gotten through genetics or whatever, like splicing or whatever, but like I however it imprinted on the thing, what it shows again is that in this movie at any rate, because it is in the book a bit, but this is kind of a central piece of the movie is like this mimicry. So like whatever it is doesn't know what it is, it's just like it just it just mimics or imitates or whatever. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, another really unemotional way, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, because that it was just mimicking without conscious thought or which makes it again more unsettling, you know. Because like because it's reflecting back, it's replaying this moment of anguish and terror.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, oh yes, it's pretty, yeah, it's really creepy.
SPEAKER_04Um in the book, I'll just say oh sorry, yeah, one more thing about it. In the in the in the book, they don't have that um that, but when they first get into the zone, um, or whatever you want to call it, I'm calling it the zone, I guess the shimmer or uh whatever it's called, uh Area X in the book, uh, they uh they they hear at night uh of human voice like screaming and speculate as to like what it could be and like try to find it and stuff like that. So I think maybe that's taken from there. I should also mention that the reason why they're all female uh is that um there was isn't a like tremendous reason, but like that basically the Southern Reach, which is the organization that's investigating, is like trying every possible combination of everything they can find. So it's like they're just sending in all kinds of different combinations. So but anyway.
SPEAKER_00And I think that they do say that in this movie uh at one point. Maybe, maybe not that they're trying different combinations, but I think when Dr. Ventress is talking to Lena in the beginning about the next expedition, I think there is uh a line where she says this is the first all female uh expedition that they've they've done. So that to me tells me that maybe they are just trying all kinds of different combinations to see, you know, what worked. And I mean, we don't get to see all of the people in Kane's video, but from what we could gather when the guy's intestines were slithering, was that that looked like it might have been all male.
SPEAKER_04It was, yeah. At least in the book, and at least in the book, there was like a number of all male ones. And then they, for whatever reason, decided to do the all-female thing to see how it goes. But and the in the but in the book, too, like the free will thing gets even more um pro problematic or problematized because hypnotipnotism plays a huge role in the book, and that's part of its occult esoteric sort of side or whatever. But the psychologist, this is old school psychologist, this is Freudian psychology when psychotherapists used to hypnotize people, I guess. But she has to hypnotize them to like, you know, not lose their mind throughout the book or whatever. All right, so she's got trigger words uh that she'll like she'll say to them to like calm their asses down or like make them forget something. And when they first come into the zone in in the book, they're they've been there already for three days and they have no memories of having been there. It's like they just look around and they're like, Yeah, whoa, like uh my this and that, you know, like and they've been eating, like so they've been doing stuff, right?
SPEAKER_02Like the they're yeah, well, in the book, it's because they were under hypnosis.
SPEAKER_04In the in the movie, I think they're suggesting it's just because the the shimmer, the shimmer is weird, yeah, or whatever. Yeah, and again, back to the identity piece was it's just gonna be back so many times. Like one of the things that people consider like essential to identity is memory, and so like people's memories are getting all lost, confused. And in the book, and I can't remember in the movie, but there's memory mixing. So, anyways, it's like it's really, you know, like who's who, as it's gonna really take off in the movie, a big question of who's who.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So as this mutant bear comes in, he's like, you know, in Cassie's voice, he's like sniffing around. Uh um, Anya comes back and uh the bear kills her, right? And then Josie manages to break free and she shoots the bear. And once again, it takes like God's amounts of bullets to put this bear down. Um so with the group fractured, Dr. Vinterest decides that she's gonna continue alone toward the lighthouse to get next to the Shimmer's core. Uh, Josie becomes increasingly detached and suggests that the bear just didn't mimic Cassie. It refracted her consciousness, leaving only fear and pain behind. And so this is where Marty, you mentioned uh Josie decides that she's just gonna accept her fate. Uh and she wanders off and transforms into a plant-like figure and just she kind of just disappears. But I'm assuming she just turned into one of those. Oh, she was turning into a tree the whole way. Uh yeah, she was because we see the we see the leaves growing and stuff on her. At the more that she's like sitting and talking with Lena, she just starts getting these leaves and these vines coming out of her skin. And then she just becomes a plant person. Um so Lena with no choice, she just presses on alone and she reaches the lighthouse. And this is my favorite scene in this whole movie where she's walking towards the lighthouse on this beach, and there are these beautiful, like crystal trees just growing out of the sand. I like I have never seen anything so gorgeous in my life. Um, but yeah, it's it's absolutely beautiful. What were your guys' thoughts on that scene?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I thought it was amazing, you know, too. That was um once you get there too, because you're sort of building up, you know, too. And then um, but you can see it's definitely another example of okay, mutation or whatever happened to those trees. Cause I was also trying to figure out I was like, okay, if they're like crystalline, are they like salt trees or something? Or I couldn't tell like what it was that um they were, or just like something, you know, that the um that the aliens created. But um yeah, I almost thought, you know, too. I was like, okay, well, they've got that. But then it was a little bit um jarring then to because you they have like the arrangement of um like skeletons, you know, also on the I still don't know what that is. I have no idea who did that, you know, like why you know because that that kind of took away a little bit from that theory that I actually kind of I think is a good um theme, you know, too, of this indifference or this, you know, that it's not necessarily like a malevolent um, you know, force, it's it's just um it just is, but uh like a force that just is is I don't know what they why would they be lighting up skelet in a row or skulls or you know, something like that. Umless that was a crazy.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there is a lot of that. So like whatever in the in the book, whatever it gets mixed, and we'll get into more of this when we start to have some talk about doppelgangers, because doppelgangers are huge in the book. Uh they they gain so the the one gains the intention of the other. And so, like, whatever intentionality you see in the zone is a reflection of whoever was mixed. And and there was a big sea battle in one of the earlier missions in the book. So, like those guys lined up very well could have been from, I mean, maybe I don't, you know, again, I don't know how how much you know he was going off the book at this point, but like they they did have to fight like this huge like sea battle at some point during one of the missions, and they were all kind of like, you know, they would have like probably buried each other, whatever, because they would have still had that sort of you know, uh wherewithal, even though we they were mixing already, and and and all were mixed, both the doppelganger and them are mixed, and we'll talk more about that later too. But the other thing about the crystals that I was thinking about um is that there was a lot of time, there was a long time in science. I guess it was uh man, it was just it was I guess it was mostly in the early 20th century where there's just always been this question is like, well, how does inorganic matter become um organic? And crystals were thought of as this uh intermediary because they they they have they they're well the one thing they have is they have this thing called a mother liquor, which is the the liquor, uh it's the word liquor, like I don't I don't know a lot about crystals, but anyways, it's like it's got the it's got like a kind of d almost DNA like quality in the sense that it's like it's got a kind of sure you mean it's yeah, it's got a plan. Well, it's it's got a plan, you know what I mean? It's it's it's it's so like you have to have the mother liquor to get the crystal to form whatever. You can have all the chemicals, but if you don't have like the plan, which is the mother liquor or whatever, you're not gonna get uh the crystals uh or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Crystals won't form.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it doesn't yeah, they like so like in other words, the it's this question, you know, with the DNA and whatnot, like, yeah, DNA can like code and make proteins uh or whatever, but like what tells them to stop where you know how to form uh an organ and all that kind of stuff. So like you know, it seemed like crystals were like this intermediary, like, oh, the plan is here, you know, somehow in the mother liquor or whatever. Um it's telling how it's telling these, you know, these elements how to structure themselves, uh, or whatever. Um so but like so I thought, oh, these are this is like this sort of like idea about this crystals being this sort of like in-between of life, and it's mostly dispelled now, but like um there's not there's nothing living about crystals, and they've they still haven't figured out how inorganic matter becomes um you know organic or whatever, you know, it's like unbelievably complicated, like the even the simplest form of DNA reproducible behind a Markov blanket or whatever is like insanely uh complicated. But, anyways, uh so yeah.
SPEAKER_00So when Lena reaches the lighthouse, she goes inside, she finds a charred body and like a video recorder sitting on a tripod. Um, in the video, it's Kane calmly giving instructions for finding Lena before killing himself with a phosphorus grenade. Moments later, a duplicate of Kane emerges from behind the camera. And so I this is one of the scenes that I don't understand in this movie, and I wanted to get your guys' thoughts on it. So obviously, because we'll see this later, right? That the alien or whoever becomes the doppelganger of Kane, right? So number one, why is Kane giving the doppelganger instructions to find his wife? And then number two, why is he kill himself? Like those are the two things. I'm like, I don't understand what's happening. Did did did the alien make him have like these, like, was the was it like mind control or was it I don't know?
SPEAKER_02It's just like gone crazy, you know, at that point. Yeah, like I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04No idea.
SPEAKER_02Was he transferring his consciousness? That's the only thing, like, but I don't know like why he would do it, but um, that's why when the cane copy goes, you know, back and they have like I I don't remember if it's the very beginning or the flashback, but you know, when he's like trying to figure out stuff, but he he talks about her as a memory, you know, like um like as something that and he's just trying to figure out like what did that memory mean and who is she, yeah, it's like yeah, yeah. So I I almost felt like there was an implication that it copied him until it then took over his consciousness, and then like that was like sort of that that last stage, and maybe you know, he was just like, Okay, time for me to self-destruct and let the you know the uh copy um take over, do whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so in the book, and this may be helpful or not, but that reverse tower that's barreling into the ground with litting walls and living writing, and there's actually this like crawler thing that's like a slug and all kinds of different things. That's basically the book's version of this weird uh mimic creature or whatever. And so, like uh in the book, when the psychologist, there's a whole bunch of stuff with it, but when the psychologist gets like taken by it, it's like really painful it because it's like copying her memories. Um, and then like she thinks she's gonna die, she thinks she is dead, she's in and out of consciousness, and and she like she thinks that like basically I don't know, her identity is being stolen or whatever. Um, because in in in the book, the the slug thing or the crawler thing is actually uh a weird mutated version of who had been the lighthouse keeper. And so, like, uh once it gets all of her stuff, it like it like takes off and uh it doesn't bother with her, or well, she tries to take off and she realized it doesn't even care about her anymore. Like after after it's gotten it's got after it's gotten all of her all of her memories.
SPEAKER_00When you say she, you're talking about Dr. Ventress. Is that who you're talking about?
SPEAKER_04I'm sorry, did I say the psychologist? There would be a lot of people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, Dr. Ventris was a psychologist, but you just said the biologist.
SPEAKER_04I I meant to say the biologist.
SPEAKER_00So uh oh Josie.
SPEAKER_04So right, yeah. Sorry, the Natalie Porkman.
SPEAKER_00Lena's the one that Lena used. No, that's Lena. Sorry. That's why I was like, whoa. Josie's already a tree at this point. And there's like five women in this movie. That's why I'm trying to figure out who's the she.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, and I was thinking like you, because if you meant the psychologist, like in the movie, right? So she when they and I I guess I'm sorry. I didn't, I meant the biologist, but I mean she ex, you know, like bursts into color or like turns into yeah, so yeah, whirly so yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that's what we're that's yeah. So the next scene is Lena descends into the crater left by the meteor. She finds Dr. Ventress in a near-dissolved state. Dr. Ventress speaks of the shimmer's unstoppable expansion before disintegrating into a radiant, bright mass, uh, which is interesting. Um, so is that what you're talking about, Marty? Like in the book when when Dr. Ventress is disintegrating into this brightness. Yeah, it's like sucking her memories. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_04Um there is that. They call that the brightness, and she and like, but it's like something you can see on the other person once you're like fully integrated into the zone, and it like heightens your awareness and all this other kind of stuff. But like, uh yeah, but you do you do you you you have you glow like in multiple colors or whatever, but like it's not like a sign that you're blowing yourself up or anything exactly. But yeah, I I mean I you know, I don't know um how it relates exactly. That's a good question. But I I don't know. I yeah, that the I mean obviously all the controversy uh is around that last scene, and it's not really uh and it's not really it's different, but it's not like really cleared up necessarily in all three books of uh of Area X either. Um so like yeah, a lot a lot of different theories can can fly. So let them fly.
SPEAKER_00Um so the entity, um, so that big bright mass uh absorbs a drop of blood from Lena, and then from that little drop of blood forms a facelift. Humanoid creature that begins to mirror Lena's movements, right? Trapped in silence, Lena realizes that it isn't attacking her, it's becoming her. Which I do like this part of the movie. I like seeing, you know, Lena and this um entity, humanoid, whatever figure, whatever, alien, if you will, uh kind of mimic her and her trying, you know, figuring out that this thing is turning into her, right? Um thinking quickly, she hands it a grenade that was left over from Kane's um, you know, when he had his grenades there. Um, and this triggers a chain reaction that engulfs the entire lighthouse into flames. Lena is able to escape and the shimmer begins to collapse in on itself and vanishing as suddenly as suddenly as it appears. Um back in the present, Lena's interrogation concludes with the shimmer gone, Kane's condition stabilizes, but the man who returned is not quite the one who left. When Lena visits him, she questions whether it is truly Kane. He responds by asking if she is truly Lena. Neither answer. They embrace. And then the irises of their eyes begin to flicker as like a shimmer kind of thing, right? It kind of looks like the shimmer itself, uh, hinting that whatever came back with them may not be entirely human. And that is the ant.
SPEAKER_02So we know for sure that Cain is like an alien, right? Okay, so because you see him die, but then she is, we think, I'm pretty sure that wait, so she killed the copy, but she's infected with whatever or like mutated enough. And when did that happen? That's my question. Well, I think they hinted at it, like when you know when that scene when she's like, Oh, I must have gotten a bruise from um the alligator, you know, and then she goes into and she as she was looking at it, there was something weird about the bruise. I remember there was like some some kind of weird thing about it, and then she was in um she had was carrying her microscope, or like maybe there was one there at the army base, and she she looked at a uh drop of blood of her eyes and it was shimmer, yeah. Shimmery, yeah, yeah. So I think she knew pretty quickly that they were all infected um as soon as they got in, or something or something, you know, got into them.
SPEAKER_00So do you think okay, that's an interesting point because that's what I wanted to ask you guys. So do you think because I think Kane clearly was uh a doppelganger, right? He was he Kane in the ICU is a double, is the double Kane, right? Not the original Kane because we saw him kill himself with the grenade, right? But my question is the le Lena escapes, we see her, what we think is her, right? Escape the lighthouse that is imploding, whatever, right? So what you're saying, Andrea, is that she instead of that being a double ganger of Lena, it's actually Lena, but she's infected with the shimmer.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay. That's what I think about that. That's a good point. That's a good point. Okay. I think, but then her acceptance of Kane, that was an interesting point, though, too. Like, okay, they got into for for me, that was an identity question then. Um, you know, too. So she knows he's a copy. Yes, yes, she knows she he's a copy, yeah. But she's kind of like, well, I guess this is pretty close. I'll just tell him I won't tell him about the cheating part. I'll just uh you know, like the memories. I'll tell him everything else. Right. And um so you know, I thought that was sort of the to me, that's kind of what explained it is like she her conclusion, Lena's conclusion, was this is basically Kane, because like he's ex he's pretty much exactly like it. He maybe like doesn't understand all his memories, but um you know, to her it was the same thing. But right. I don't know. Did you guys see that as well?
SPEAKER_00I mean, yeah, I I I I guess that's where I the the movie, the end of the movie kind of throws me off because I can see it. I like your point of view, right? Like yeah, I like that point of view. I I just always I I just was always trying to figure out like is it actually Lena at the end or is it the dollbook anger? Like we see Lena leave, but is that really Lena? You know, and I'm saying, or is it the copy of Lena that we see leave? We don't know. We we have no idea. And I think that's go ahead, Marty.
SPEAKER_04Finish me first. I'm sorry, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_00No, I was just gonna say, and I think that ending is supposed to be ambiguous, but it also drives me crazy at the same time, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because there's like even that part, like I think where it can get really questionable, right? Is when up until like a certain point, the alien is or the um copy is like a chimmery kind of weird skin. Right. But when she hands it and she holds, you know, the hands of it and handing the grenade grenade, you see the skins changing, her face is changing. Right. And I don't think there's a clean area. I mean, because she is a copy. Well, I guess she does kind of actually take that back. So she steps back, the real Lena steps back, and you actually do see her the grenade stays with the alien. And then the alien as it's as it's blowing up is turns back to its shimmery um skin. So that's why I think Lena really is Lena, just an infected Lena.
SPEAKER_00Just a just a shimmer infected Lena. Okay, yeah, yeah. That's a that I like that. I like that, I like that perspective.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I think the ambiguity needs to kind of stick so that if in the in the book, um the question is um they had the doppelgangers, and and the video that they see is not of somebody's crawling intestines in the book, the video that they have is of somebody being copied. And uh but but but very but very you know hazily or whatever, trying to figure out what's going on. And the and uh most of the folks come back uh from the missions, but it's oftentimes it's not them, it's their doppelgangers that come back. And actually, the doppelgangers are more like who they were, because the original people all stay within the zone and like dossiers are like trees and stuff like that. The the original, what it what you may call it, biologist, uh in the book is like this weird sea creature thing that seems to reflect to some degree her uh young life looking in title pools and stuff like that. And you know, she's not that's you know her, but like that's the question of identity that's so ambiguous. It's like in some sense, um, you know, the the doppelganger is more who she was than what she's become. Um, and then yeah, and then there is this sort of ecstasy of of reversing the positions, but like the the the people becoming the things or whatever, there's like another guy who becomes like some huge weird sea creature bohemoth, and there's another guy who becomes like some lopping wolf-like thing or whatever. Like they um they they seem I don't know about happy, but you know, this it seems to be it seems to somehow accord with their intentions. So sort of like thinking about free will in that way too is kind of weird. That's why there is this sort of ecstasy you get, I think, in the movie too, where people are like, wow, it's awesome or whatever, uh, into the transformation or whatever. But like I but notice also that when he the why uh you might wonder like why does that, and this is not in the book at all, but why does that that why does the copy uh of Lena take the you know to self-destruct? And you know, my my personal little pet theory is like because she's um imitated Lena to the point where she's taken on her self-destruction as well. So like she's she's got a death drive now, or something like that. But uh yeah, I and I definitely don't so like you know, it's like whether she's a copy or whether she's the original one, the one on the outside or whatever, though even though her eyes are glowing, you know, she's more like the original than you know, perhaps the original is uh uh at that point because that's the that that that's the one that imitates, at least to some degree or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Well, and she does say, like when she's asked, Are you Lena? Like she, I don't I can't remember if she doesn't answer or just says, I don't know. But there is so you know, I think going back to you, Charlotte. Like maybe there it is, you know, that intentional ambiguity even within their self-suit, like even through the process, so no matter if she's a copy or the real, you know, things she's sort of like, I don't know who I am. Like, I have no idea, right? Yeah, and what does that even mean? You know, like how would I identify myself? Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_04And what does that even mean, anyways, at this point? Exactly right. And and it also seems like there's a more ambiguity around, like, well, did they why would this thing blow up the whole zone or whatever the shimmer all together? It's like, or is it you know, like now it's everywhere? You know what I mean? Like, so like it's either right now now the zone is the whole earth or something, I don't know, but like and you know they did walk around as it's burning and it's like touch this, touch this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right. Exactly. Like stop, drop and roll, or get out of there. Like burn your whole house down. I know. Touch the curtains, touch the everything. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like again, it's yeah, the contaminant is way out the box. Like, I mean, it's a it's past even you know, consideration at this point. Like, yeah, it's out. And uh in the book, uh, you know, I mean, in the movie, they make it real clear. I mean, the the imagery of it, you know, reminded me of like uh Satan falling like lightning or something like that. That was my maybe esoteric thing in uh in the movie. That's probably the only esoteric thing. I don't think it was deliberately referring to that, it just was like meteor hitting the earth or something like that. So it was like clearly an alien origin or whatever. Um, and then this is you know where the cosmic horror comes in to the whole thing because HP Lovecraft would mix um esoteric religious uh themes with scientific themes all the time, which is very normal uh stuff as we know from vampires and Frankenstein, uh uh Dr. Faustus, Dr. Draco, Mr. Hyde. It was like half science, half alchemy, half, you know, like esotericism or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Like to get your brain there, I think, too. Like, you know, you'll be able to like actually um absorb, you know, some of the the really wild fantasy um part. Right, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Okay. So what are our final thoughts? Um, Andrea, do you want to go first? Did you love this movie? Did you hate it? Was it meh?
SPEAKER_02Uh no, I would say like I I liked it a lot. Um, I don't know if I like totally loved it, um, just for various reasons. But I I really it was the first movie in a long time that made me really think um and um you know get deeper. So for that, I really liked it um from that standpoint. I don't I don't know that it would be one that I would watch like uh repeatedly or um but looking back and I'll be like, okay, that was a really good movie.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, how about you? Uh yeah, no, I I really do enjoy this movie. I I agree with you. It's not one where I would be like, oh, I gotta go watch Annihilation right now. You know, like it's not one of those movies for me, but it is interesting. I'm glad that I finally got a chance to see it. Um, you know, and and the second viewing, now that you know what happens, I could really, you know, it kind of like get into that world a little bit more.
SPEAKER_02Um I missed a lot that you pointed out, like the things like the detail of Cassie's face and the bear and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00So I think the second showing would probably Yeah, go back and watch it again because it yeah, when you watch it, when you like, because you know, when you're first watching a movie, you're just trying to like figure out like what's happening, right? But when you go back and watch it now, you know what's gonna happen. You can really hone in on those those details. And so at on a second viewing, I was able to do that. Um, I think the acting is phenomenal in this movie. I mean, Natalie Portman, I mean, Marty, Marty, are you a Natalie Portman fan? She's okay.
SPEAKER_04I mean, uh, whatever. She's fine.
SPEAKER_00I I yeah, I the only reason why I say that is because like she's been in a lot of movies, but she really doesn't stick out in a lot of movies for whatever reason, even when she's the leading act. So but this and Black Swan, I would have to say they are my two favorite Natalie Portman movies. So she does an excellent job. I thought Tessa Thompson, I thought all the ladies did it excellent. Jennifer Jason Lee, like as Dr. Venturist, she was, you know, just great acting all the way around. This the the the scenes in this movie are absolutely gorgeous. I mean, I think that's where this movie really has its strong point is the the cinematography, the scenes, the the visual effects, all of that. It's a beautiful film. So I I enjoy it. I, you know, it's not one of my faves, but I do enjoy this movie. Uh Marty, what about you?
SPEAKER_03You know, I do like this one. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So well, what did you say?
SPEAKER_00You kind of cut out in the beginning, so just repeat what you said. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Oh, okay. Yeah. I I yeah, I mean, I I movies are hard for me to watch mostly. Um, but I, you know, I there was enough ideas for me to think think throughout it. And like it wasn't just like tons and tons. I hate movies mostly for action scenes, and there were some of those, but like it wasn't it wasn't uh like a lot of boring chasing and crap like that. There was some, but like they weren't super long. Like, I hate all the things. They happened and then they went on to like yeah, and then yeah, and then there's there's a lot of like what I like, people sitting around theorizing about stuff and just stuff out. So, like that's that's interesting. I I will say too that uh the title Annihilation uh in the book uh refers to so I said the psychologist is able to hypnotize people well uh with the and she had I guess in hypnosis they're called command words or something like that. But one of the are trigger words maybe, I don't know, but uh the trigger word for kill yourself uh that they were all like trained to do is was annihilation. So like if she said that then Wow then her crew would kill themselves. And she's a bit she becomes more sympathetic in the book, but she's also just sneaky too. But uh, you know, and as there's a there's a it's a very complex thing. She actually um in the book is from that area, and she was uh and she was there at the beginning um with the lighthouse keeper in that lighthouse. Um and and so she feels a special obligation to go in, not just because she has cancer, which she does, but probably she has cancer because she was from there, and like and like interesting.
SPEAKER_02I was wondering, yeah, like even what kind she had, or you know, whatever, because they were like she's just given up generic cancer, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah, and that's the right the fact that the mutation I actually wondered, I know this is total supposition, but I was like, is she going back to cure her cancer? Like, was that maybe like her bonus? Like, you know, she thought, well, the mutation could happen such that I you know would fight.
SPEAKER_04Well, you notice uh that people in the zone don't really die, they just change. So, like, you know, right, right. Cancer obviously is not exactly like that, it's just malignant, and you know, it just it doesn't differentiate into organs or anything new, it just it just eats whatever there is, but like, you know, um, I don't know, like it's not it's only cancer on the outside for whatever reason. Somehow on the inside, there's enough I don't know, organization that keeps it. You move into something else, but you don't, you know. I mean, I the the scene that really got me was that dude's like on the pool on the wall of the empty pool or whatever, and uh he's he's like all spread out and like he's turned into barnacles and crustacean and stuff like that. And you can yeah, he was he was the he was the guy with the snake guts or whatever. Transformed. I mean, it looked awful and like amazing at the same time as Versos is like as with all of them, like all those all those creatures, like you know, were yeah, awful and amazing at the same time. And the flowers to me were like a little over the top for sure, but like they almost were like audacious. I'm not um just like gauche or something, but like you know, at the same time, like each different bud on the on the vine or whatever was or on the stem was like a different breed of flower mixed together, like all this like mixing and stuff like that. So yeah, everything like that, just fungus everywhere, colorful fungus, and yeah, yeah, you know, just yeah. So and I mean in uh history religions wise, which is always my interest, like going like the shaman going into you know across some liminal space into some magical world where new things are made. I mean, it was it was um the shaman's job, as far as we understand, you know, in early animistic religion to enter that space, go into that zone, and and they would often come back with like new ways to do the ritual dance, new, new, new ways to, I mean, they they innovated uh and and and changed their way of life and culture and and and uh art and whatever because of their experiences in those kind of spaces where things are all mixed up and in transition and like their hybrid. So you see a lot of hybrid animal mixing on like very early, like especially like go back Le Tepe or whatever, you see like this and half that and all kinds of weird stuff going on because the shaman, those are things that they saw when you know when they went to you know, this weird space that's you know in transition, mutating, whatever. So uh I had I had a I had a great you know interest and love in that kind of an idea altogether.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, I think that's like it the concept of mutation for evolution, like an actual like it can be I guess it could be ambiguous, right? It could be either for something really good for survival, like move towards that, or um, you know, uh more of a destructive thing, but it's it's random, right? It seems like some of it this is um is is random. Um but without it, without that mutation, um nothing would ever live, grow, you know, change, um, evolve.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean when when uh you know asked like what I think they asked Natalie Portman's care, like what did it want or what does it want? And he just she just says, you know, I don't nothing, maybe like that. Yeah, that that that's that's evolution, pure and simple. If it if it is by natural selection, there's no actual selection going on. It's a principle that just you know, like it's not there's not a choice, it just like does what's going to increase the odds of, you know, but it needs it needs uh something to select in the sense that it needs this random variation, and that's like what you know what it is. But like the thing is, is you there there's has to be something with some intention, like choosing, um, you know, uh whether whether I mean whether it's a principle, uh it's so it's not really a choice or whatever, but it's it's a blind, like what they call it in evolution, blind uh choice, design or whatever. It's so it's not like sitting there thinking about it beforehand, but like in order to get anything functional, it seems to me like there has to be some intention at least for life or something. So yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's why there's a lot of um, I don't know, you would even come like spiritual scientists, you know, too. It's a kingdom, you know. They feel like, okay, we've gotten down to whatever, there's got to be still something like a force of some kind.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some things that wants to do.
SPEAKER_02Or we'll all go crazy thinking, okay, if there's not anyone, then what's the point?
SPEAKER_00All right. Well, before we announce what we're covering next week, please be sure to join the podcast so you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. Also, leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. Also, we have an Instagram account. Please follow us at the Desire of Horror Podcast. So next time on the Desire of Horror Podcast, we will be discussing out of Darkness.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I loved it. It was really weird.
SPEAKER_00It was it's a really good movie.
SPEAKER_04Again, I did not like a lot of movies, and I like this one. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04We're getting some bangers here. Annihilation. This one and then what's the last one? I mean uh out of darkness and then what's the last one?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're so we're we're coming up to the end of our uh nature nature horror series. So we have Out of Darkness, we have uh Grizzly Man. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04And we're just really gonna think something out of that one. Yeah. That's a that's a gnarly movie. Whoa. All right, and little word number zone.
SPEAKER_02I've never even heard of it.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So Grizzly Man is actually a documentary.
SPEAKER_02So the one where the guy actually got like mauled and they oh yeah. Alright, yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04They actually have the videotape of it, but they don't play it. They play the audio, which is just as awful. So yeah. Yeah. Get ready for that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's pretty bad.
SPEAKER_04Any any any any like and the the moron Timothy Treadwell or whatever the stupid name is is like it like basically has lured some woman along with him who also gets money.
SPEAKER_02It's his girlfriend.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02But like Yeah, we can talk about some of those things. Because there's that that thing I read about where people like guys are taking their girlfriends on hikes and like dangerous hairs and then ditching them like as a breakup thing. That's like a real thing. What?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02I will uh some bearing facts. But that was uh that was a recent um news story. So yeah, we'll talk about that.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_04So we got some good episodes coming up, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, definitely. So, Andrea, thank you for joining us. Absolutely. Thanks for having me again, you guys. Yeah, absolutely. All right, so please join us for our next episode, Out of Darkness. Thank you for listening. Until we meet again, have a good week and take care of each other.
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