Out of Darkness: What Is Otherness?

What is Otherness? Out of Darkness 2022 directed by Andrew Cumming fits into a number of horror categories, but we've decided to do it on our nature horror series. When we were kids back in the 80s, there were two bizarro movies about early hominids, "Quest for Fire" and the "Clan of the Cave Bear." Both have proved to be quite incompatible with more recent paleo-anthropological findings. Many of those fallacies have been cleared up to great effect in Out of Darkness. The two most glaring of these mistakes were that Neanderthals weren't capable of the advanced symbolic behaviors of Homo Sapiens, and that there was no interbreeding between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals because they were too genetically different to reproduce. Since that time, archeological evidence has shown that Neanderthals did participate in symbolic activities such as art, language, and religious practices, and genetic markers have proved that they did interbreed with Homo Sapiens. Out of Darkness is a story about human immigration and confrontation with the Other, and in true horror fashion, it asks who is the monster when otherness is encountered? As different as Neanderthals were, they were human.

https://youtu.be/AXgrppWd5Vs

https://www.buzzsprout.com/2509184/episodes/19245677

https://www.martinessig.com

Baddass vibes mixed by James Reeves of Midnight Radio: jamesreeves.co for the intro and outro music of most episodes, I mix the mixtapes that I post here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:14

Hello and welcome to the Desire of Horror Podcast, the show where we review horror movies and discuss what these films say about the nature of human desire. I'm Charla, and with me always is Marty. How are you doing today, Marty?

SPEAKER_00 0:28

I'm good. Hey, how you doing, Cher? Sorry about my camera. It like does this all the time. I have no idea how to make it stuck.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

But is it zooming in? Is it zooming in?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

It just does it randomly at no control. It's done that, it's done that. It does that in so many different episodes. I don't know why. I can't figure it out. But, anyways, I just not techno-savvy.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

We can make it like so it's a dramatic effect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

I guess, but it just like goes back and forth, back and forth a whole bunch of times. It's really annoying.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

It's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Oh, sure. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

And we have Andrea with us again.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

All right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Welcome, Andrea. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

All right. Tonight we are going to be discussing Out of Darkness from 2024. Uh initial thoughts. Let's start with Andrea. You go first.

unknown 1:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Um, so I had kind of a funny initial thought um when I was like um watching this because I didn't have the close captioning on. And so um I was like, oh my god, what is happening here? Um I was trying to figure out what language they were signed up. It didn't come up automatically, too. So I thought that was gonna be like the whole movie. Strange, because I thought the movie is subtitled. So that's it, too. Yeah, like later I'm like, oh, okay, because then I I've been a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

It should have been it's a made-up language, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Right, it's a made-up language, so it should have been. But um, so then uh so my my very first impression was oh crap, I don't know how this is gonna roll. One of them is start speaking in the language that I can actually understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

But no, I like actually um yeah, I thought it was really interesting. Um, very like I kept thinking to myself, there's a lot of good themes in this. Um, you know, a lot of parallels. So um yeah, overall, um, I liked it. Good, good. Marty, what about you?

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, no, I uh as you know, sure, I I lobbied hard for this one. You weren't really sure if this was nature horror or not, and I was like It is, it actually is, yeah. I I made the case, I pushed it hard, but uh anyway, I yeah, I just um yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I grew up with a couple like super weirdo attempts uh in the 80s uh at trying to uh understand like early human uh humans, human hominids or whatever. And uh I was kind of fascinated by both of them. Quest for Fire was has got has got, you know, since like modern um I don't know, research into Neanderthal and human relations and whatnot is considered pretty outdated at this point. Um, like a lot of stuff they just think is plain wrong in that movie. Uh then the other one is Clan of the Cave Bear, which was also a book. Um and I guess the main interest in Clan of the Cave Bear was Daryl Hannah's boobs for me when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

So uh I've never seen that movie. I remember it.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

That didn't exist.

SPEAKER_04 3:32

That's really yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Blonde and uh and and that was one of the cool things about this movie is like even though they were in uh Europe and Northern Europe, they still had African uh and Middle Eastern features, which actually the um yeah, from what we found that the um European sort of switch over to light skin and blonde hair and blue eyes was very late. So um like uh just shockingly late. Um so just uh more recent genetic mutation than anything else. But uh a lot of things I liked about it. But yeah, uh I have kept up uh on like a lot of the anthropology around early homo homo sapiens and just early hominids in general, and so um it's interesting to see how some of that new research gets put into a movie and uh you know how people imagine things and you know, just uh I don't know, just interesting stuff to me.

SPEAKER_03 4:32

So yeah, yeah. Uh Marty, you and I we saw this at in the theaters when it came out, right?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, beautifully shot, lots of amazing panoramas, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:43

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that would play well on a big screen. Um it was gorgeous, right? Um, but I had never heard of this before. So, how did you remember how you heard about this movie? Because I just remember you being like, We're gonna go see this movie, and it's called Out of Darkness, and I was like, Okay, I had no idea.

SPEAKER_00 5:01

What was the one who initiated? I don't even remember me being the one who initiated it.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Oh so, yeah. I mean, it's been like two years ago since we've got a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I very, very rarely like initiate a going to a movie, so that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

I'm pretty sure you initiated it.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it's true. I just have no idea how I found out about it or anything. Must have been by listened to it in a review or something. Like I do listen to uh quite a few like movie review podcasts, so I must have maybe I heard it on one of those. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Oh, you know what? I think you did. I think, I think now, like it's all kind of coming back to me now. I think you did hear about it uh in one of the podcasts that you listened to. So yeah, no, I I love this movie. I mean, I remember us walking out of the theater and me being like, oh my gosh, this movie is so good. It's so good, and it's one of these ones where you don't hear anybody talking about it.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

So I don't know. I don't know. I had not heard of it, like honestly. And yeah, I when I was searching to see, you know, where to stream this from, um, there's like three or four movies um with like close out names. Yeah, and I like I I thought I was gonna get it for free on Tubi. And so it started it, and it was like this cop scene downtown, like whatever. I'm like, I don't think I got the right out of darkness.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

Right. Yeah. We have already had that same experience when we were we were searching it, and it was like three out of darkness came out, and I was like, Oh, I think it's this one. And Marty was like, Why is there so many name that? And I was like, it's just kind of like a generic title, and I was like, it reminds me of like a lifetime movie, like out of darkness, into light, or something like that. I was like, it's just very generic. But this is not a generic movie at all. It's it's it's it's a really good movie. So are you guys ready to discuss?

SPEAKER_00 6:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah, all right. So Out of Darkness, the release date, the US release date, February 9th, uh, 2024, directed by Andrew Cumming, which there isn't a lot of information on this director. Andrew, I don't know if you did any side googling, uh, if you found anything.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Um I I think this was like the debut film. It was right. So yeah, like the first feature film.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

And um did you find anything that he did after this though?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

No, I just saw that like the critics said that they had like Robert Eggers like potential. That was like I was able to find. So I don't know if they've done anything since or yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah, I I tried to look to see if he's done anything because this movie is really great. So I was looking to see like, well, what else has he done? And I couldn't find anything, so kind of disappointing, but I mean, hopefully he'll you know make a comeback. Yeah. Uh the screenplay was written by Ruth Greenberg, and this movie is rated R for violence and grisly images, which there are a lot of those.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And this one that made me like I honestly gagged, like I couldn't, like, um, we'll get to that scene. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

I think I I think I might know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

Yeah, we we definitely know which one she's talking about, though. That was a brutal scene.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

It was life was brutal, nasty, brutus, and shortness.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Yeah, good. How anyone, yeah, survived. I mean, I guess you could see like I was like, I cry bogus on that old man. Right. He would have died before then, especially being such a tool.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Yeah, I know. Uh okay. In Upper Paleolithic Europe, 45,000 years ago, six humans arrived on the shores of an o no unknown land in search of a better life. Uh, we have group leader Adam, which is very close to Adam, which I don't think that that is a mistake. I thought that was pretty clever. So Adam played by Chokumodu, his pregnant mate Ava, Eva, how did they pronounce her name? Abby, Abby, that's what it was. That's Abby, Abby, Abby. Played by Evan, which is like Eve, yeah. Yeah, which is like Eve. Uh Abby played by Elola Evans. Uh Adam's younger brother, Greer, played by Kit Young, and Adam's 11-year-old son, Huron, played by Luna Moeese. And then we have a young woman, Bea, played by Sophia Oakley Green. We also have Odell, an older gentleman, is what I put, played by Arno Lou. Arno Lewin. Um, and so they're all together in this group, right? Uh, as they journey toward the mountains searching for a cave to settle, the group encounters a mysterious creature, and Haran is taken at night. But to go back a little bit, um, what do you guys think about our six humans and on their journey to find this quote unquote better life?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

I like it as kind of an immigrant story, frankly. Just uh just to show again how human beings have always, for any number of reasons, sometimes it's just wander list, I suppose, but so for so many reasons, you know, like borders are so artificial. Uh human beings have always, you know, sought out different places. They make it clear, um, you know, through the subtitles. I should say about the invented languages that uh and even the names, that it's uh it was it was invented by a actual paleol linguistic uh professor Daniel Anderson. Daniel Anderson? I don't remember. I don't remember the name of the guy. I just know that it was they actually hired a real linguist to to to make this language. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

So the the the the note that I have is uh this was part of my fun facts. Uh, but the note that I have is this film is an entirely an artificial language named Tola, invented by Daniel Anderson, and it's based on Arabic and Basque. Is that sound? Does that sound Bosque, just Bosque, okay, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

It's a people group that's they had a really difficult time figuring out the origins of in Spain. And they just recently found found out found out in this movie kind of reflects some of that understanding that the Bosque people were in Spain like way, way, way, way, way, way early. Because it's not it Bosque is an interesting language because it's Arabic, on the one hand, is a Indo-European language, uh, very loosely, but um Bosque was not. It was not any kind of language, has no other parallel groups, it's not Celtic, it's it's nothing. They could not figure out what it was. And so um that this is why it's it's extremely early.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

So way before it sounds like really natural, right? I mean it flows. I I honestly thought that I was like, we my um kids were trying to figure out like what language it would be, and some, you know, one of my kids was like, Oh, that's Russian, or I'm like, No, it sounds almost Italian, and they was like, No, and then I'm like, No, it's made up, it's completely made up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Yeah, yeah, but it sounded natural. It does. And let's I I want to give a round of applause to these actors because I I don't even know how you would even I don't know, incredible, you know, just to learn. So convincingly, yeah, just to you know, learn lines is is hard enough, but then now you have to learn lines that is in a language that isn't even real. So yeah, it's it's very convincing. They did a great job. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

Yeah, I think. Sorry, go ahead and oh no, I was just thinking, I I thought that that opening one of the opening scenes. So, like, you know, it obviously it starts with her on the beach and then they kind of smoke, but their first night um is sort of that first, like really to me, the distinguishing one. And so that's kind of how you get introduced to the characters, right? Yeah, like um actually I think they do open with like the tell me a story, you know, kind of yes, they do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I love that so much. Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

I thought that'd be so interesting because you start seeing already like you know, why are they the different characters there, um relationships, but then it also introduces the first, like one of those really big themes in this of the darkness, right? And the and the um some of those cool camera shots that you know, if they just used only the lighting from the fire or natural, you know, like you know, shaded sunlight or whatever. Um that was um that was really interesting to kind of you already see like that this there's that circle of light, um, and you can't see from the light into the darkness. Yes, yes. So um, yeah, I thought that was um really, really good introduction, you know, to the group.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Um it's I did too. I did too. It was it was really well done.

SPEAKER_00 14:06

It it was it really was there's so much information is given in that opening scene that uh I love the storytelling, but the other thing I was gonna say about languages, they are able to actually recreate like dead languages now, so like, but not that far back. So they can actually recreate Indo-European, but it's like um this is before Indo-European. So we're talking about a very, very old situation. I don't how how long ago did you say it was, Shar?

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Like or around 45, 45,000 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

All right. So around the time these are the a lot around the time of you know, some of the very first cave drawings and like indicators of human culture, you know, that we have uh in Europe. But the fact that they were storytellers is something that we know from cave drawings and from right, right, yeah. And just from the various artifacts that we have found that seem to indicate almost like characters from stories that were known to them. And I like uh Andrea pointing out that um, you know, so many of these early stories are well, they're very important to what I study, which is history of religion. So what you if you want to call it mythology or whatever, but they're ways of talking about dealing with um, yeah, this theme, this very basic theme between darkness and light. So thus the title out of darkness. But yeah, these, you know, and then it's and then you get this movie that's about like the monster versus the people and who's the monster, and where's the darkness and where's the light? You get this confusion of position that I think is so um, I don't know, redolent with uh any kind of conversation about encountering the other. And uh and and especially um, you know, this immigrant kind of a story that there are already people there. They're leaving because of some sort of uh distress that they were in for a better life, and somebody's already there. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

And sees them as the threat, you know, to yeah, yeah, totally would be they would be the threat.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

And which is, I guess, uh and I think it's in that same scene, right, at the fireplace. Uh and I might be mixing this up a little bit, but like when Adam Adam um Adam Adam, you know, because Odo's telling that story, you know, talking about like demons and that the the land is um a you know an old dark place that the landed on, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

And um I think there's you know, I think he also you know says that um, oh Adam, Adam says that he'll bring he is the light, he's gonna bring the light, you know, to this land and you know, he's you know, trust him because he's you know the alpha male. Right, right. And then Odal says um a danger in bringing light to a dark place is that you might find out what lives in the darkness. And um I that would give me like chills. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Like Yeah, yeah. And I I like the fact that we are listening to them tell a story in a in a movie where as a as a, you know, as a society, we still love hearing stories, right? Uh we read books, we watch movies, we wanna, we wanna hear other, you know, people's lives and and and have hope and have all of those things presented to us. Um, so I thought that was interesting as well. Um, okay, so yeah, 11-year-old Huron is taken in the middle of the night. Um, the group is forced to follow Adam uh when he insists on going after it in the woods. So we don't know what has taken um uh Heron, right? It's they think it's a creature, basically, right? Uh, because they hear like howling and and creature-like sounds uh coming um you know through the through the mountains and through the woods and at night. Um so Adam, yeah, Adam's like hellbent on going and finding out who stole his son. And the group is very hesitant because they're like, listen, dude, if you leave, we're all gonna die. Like we can't survive without you. And I don't know, like there's a part of me which I get, but there's also like his his younger brother Greer is kind of like over there, like, whoa, what about me? You know, like I'll I'll you know, take this, you know, group on. And they're like, nah, dude, like you're not, you're not up to it. Um, which I thought was very interesting. Um, especially what we see happens to Greer later, right? Um, he's he's got some tasks that he's faces and you know, um, doesn't really take on those tasks very well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Is this also Charlotte? I wanted to ask you all your expertise um too in like the horror movies. So that's a that's a technique that they they use here, right? For the monster where they're just you hear it, you're hearing like wrestling, yeah, it kind of builds as the movie goes along, right? Right, right. Um getting actual glimpses, right? Until they kind of put each of this. But at this point, I think sort of that fear factor. I mean, do you see that? That that's kind of like where that some of the horror, you know, is coming out of the or like the real big fear here is that yeah, sort of set you know, you know it's there. Right. Something something is there. Yeah. It's our imagination, right, at that point as what could be doing exactly.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah, 100%. And I think that's why this movie falls into the the horror category, right? Um, because you don't know what it is, right? I mean, we later find out what it is, but at first we have no idea. So we're just in the dark as the group is because we're like, oh, okay, that sounds like some kind of creature, but we can't, we it's not, it doesn't sound like any kind of creature we've ever heard before, right? So what is it? Immediately, I think as a society, we go to if we don't understand it, it's supernatural, right? It's a demon, devil, something that we're not familiar with, something of not not of this world because we can't understand it. Um, so that's why, like when Marty was pushing this movie, at first I was kind of like, uh, I don't think it's really nature horror. I don't think it's really a horror movie because of what we find out that happens later. But he reminded me, okay, but for like the first, you know, hour of this movie, we have no idea what is happening. And I'm like, oh, you're right. That is that is definitely horror. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Even the way the forest is portrayed when they have to go in it, it's so interesting. Yeah, it's just like they look at it and you you just don't, you know, you don't realize because we don't see a wild forest ever. I mean, maybe so maybe you guys have, I don't know, but like they it just make it look so ominous. Like, no, we're not going in there, we're going around. It's such an interesting call. Yeah, the branch is a very good thing. Because it becomes like the awful, right? Yeah, it becomes the truly haunted forest, the forest you heard about in Hansel and Gretel, you know, like where you where there is real danger lurking. It's so hard to imagine what a forest like that were like. I I love the place where you know some of my uh and Andrea's family comes from the Black Forest region of Germany, which is this well-known rural, almost magical forest that so many of the brothers Grimm's tales come from. Yeah, I was gonna say I've heard of it.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

So, like, talk about stories about darkness and body horror and everything else. I mean, you know, that's that is very much uh a part of forests. Um, so there's like just this tremendous contrast between them being in the wide open where I assume they went for safety because they could see anything approaching. Um, and then when they uh run into the forest after uh Heron or I uh or or whatever, the the the child. Um and then and then things just really fall apart from there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

Well, and I think there's that imagery um lay a little bit later because they go around the forest first, right? And then later they when they go into it, I mean the the um tree branches or the the uh trunks, it's it's shown as almost like a dead and very dense, you know, um setting. Yeah. Um from the top it's green, but like you know, down the level.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Because they're all yeah, they've all competed each other out of the right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And it which is a kind of a narrative in and of itself, right? This this competing, but I also saw um some of the lighting that they used and some of the um imagery of the of the tree, dead tree trunks almost look like a prison, you know, kind of like a it's trapping them in there, you know, and keeping them like prison bars of some kind or a cage. And um, you know, and they kind of talk about that as being like, you know, if they're if they're trying to escape and they don't, you know, they end up going in circles at one point, you know, when they're um after Adam leaves them. But right, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:24

Yeah, so they they become lost in the forest, and Adam attempts to track the creature alone as darkness falls. Um, but he is attacked and he's brought back uh to the group's camp by Greer, and he is severely wounded. I mean, like his uh jaw is basically this is the scene I assume, right, Andrea?

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yes. I l I was just gagging and I'm like, I can't, I can't like it. And then even the sounds that they were making exactly sounds because I was like, oh God, he can't breathe. I'm like, you know, I got so claustrophobic from that scene. Um and just grossed out, but they had like the and the tar um you know, kind of dripping out with the you just couldn't turn like his face was turned into a monstrous um basically, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:13

And that's that's I think that's what it is. It's the it's the vision of what he looks like and the gurgling sounds. Yes, that is just like it made me just it was just so gross and like super unfortunate. Like, you know, go Beya for Yes, yeah. So yeah, exactly. The group decides that Adam needs to be mercy killed, but Greer, who should be doing it, right? They're they're trying, you're like, they're like Greer, you've got to do this, and he is unable to do it. So here comes Bea, my girl Bea. Badass Bea. Badass Bea. She kills Adam and suggests that they eat him. And I was like, hell yeah, let the cannibalism be kidding.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, it's it was interesting that they're stop being such a little wuss, Greer.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

I'm like, you're dying. Like you're gonna tell.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

You know, also it's kind of interesting because there was um when like anthropology looking at the anthropological record, trying to figure out when cannibalism became like a thing, uh as a pro as a problem, I mean. So it there's evidence of it in every culture, in every place ever, you know, and so it's but it's just like when did it become uh a taboo? So like there's uh and and like when did it have this particular meaning that was different? Because there were uh you know discoveries um of cannibals, active cannibals in like Papua New Guinea kind of famously, I guess. And um, you know, like sometimes it was engaged in as like this way of disrespecting your enemy among some folks, like after you killed your enemy, you ate them and like took their power or whatever, and just it was a way of disgracing. Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it was a it was a whole big thing that you did with your you with your tribe or whatever. But then uh there were sometimes very interesting, there were some instances where they found not in the same groups, but that uh it was used as a way of honoring the dead. So like somebody who you loved uh passed on, like Adam, and you um you ate them as a as a way of making them a part of you in this kind of like proto-Ucharist or something like that, proto-communion. Uh and so like you but it's a very literalized form of it where you're you're it's like that kind of magic where you know the thing somehow represents, but it's it's like also like uh real or whatever at the same time. Um, I mean, and so like there's a so much interesting, you know, anthropological possibilities here, but the they they express reservations about it, and then um, so like there's obviously some some problems.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Right, she doesn't, uh, because they're they're literally starving. So I we didn't really stress that. I oh I should say I really didn't stress that in the beginning of my summary. Like they are dying, essentially, right? Uh I don't even know when the last time they ate because I do we ever see them eat anything the whole entire time and all the animal is yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

No, and I don't think like so right before that scene, too. Like, well, I mean, part of like what they thought that the creature had um been uh attracted to them, right? Was because Baya was having her first period, yes and Adam was going after her as a secondary possibility in case you know the because the old girl with the baby was not surviving, yeah. Right. So I think and she's basically had said like she's not gonna go, you know, with them, and you know, they have to stay together as a pack, and that was the only way of surviving. But I think that he became her enemy. So I do wonder like was she not also for because she and and had the courage to kill him um because she hated him.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

I think there was, yeah, I yeah, I think there was a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

And like yeah, yeah, and and and and yeah, calories. But the other thing I was gonna say anthropologically, again, there there was this big debate, and it was like really rancorous and hardcore. These two guys, and I can't remember their names right now, two famous anthropologists came out with a book that claimed that like women didn't have a lot of uh you know choice in the matter of who they you know were impregnated by. Uh, they even said, they even went so far as to claim that like rape was the norm rather than consent. And so um this comes from this really interesting revision that Darwin wound up making to uh the whole evolutionary picture, what he said like f female choice actually affected evolution a lot. So, in terms of like, you know, females you know choosing which um guys to go with. And so they were looking for the you know certain traits that that were getting selected for through the choice of the female. But then these guys came along and said, you know, from their understanding, their record or whatever, no, like females hadn't been choosing uh that you know they were they were that because nature would have selected for males who just like uh you know uh impregnated women without their consent, um, that um because that that that's that that would have been the more that would have been the norm. And so yeah, and then so then in this movie they have Adam saying to her, like not giving her a choice of any kind, just saying, yeah, so this isn't working out with this other uh lady, so uh you're next, basically.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Which they don't go into it, but of course, immediately my first thought, because we we realize that Adam's son, Heron, the one that was kidnapped, is not the biological child of Adam's new mate, the the lady that's pregnant, right? So I'm like, well, what happened to the first lady? Like, I like nobody ever talks about that. I'm like, that's kind of scary. I think maybe you guys shouldn't be. Yeah, I'm like, maybe you guys shouldn't be. Women probably died all the time for like, right? I know that's true. But yeah, no, I I and Marty, I know we've talked about this before, uh, about that study uh those two anthropologists uh did about women not having consent. And I'm not gonna disagree with that, but I just say like it could be a little bit of both, right? It could be a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. I think, I think there were non-consensual, obviously, but I also probably think there were some like badass women who were like, no, I don't want to be with you, you know, like I'm gonna go off on my own or I'm gonna find somebody else or whatever, right? I think there's probably some of those one-offs as well.

SPEAKER_01 31:17

I'm sure that like I think that there was also sort of a pack selection of who could mate and who couldn't, right? So like interesting, yeah. Um, you know, there I think he was also denying his, I don't know if that's his brother or whatever, however, Greer related to him, Greer. Yeah, yeah. Because Greer was the beta, you know, male there, or like um whoever, like down the chain. Right. And so I mean, I think even just through pack um, you know, order or whatever, um, that's kind of how it was chosen who was gonna sleep with the women, you know, in the pack. And um, so those traits of being able to be the strongest, you know, and toughest, right, um probably could also, you know, were were brought forward. Um as well. Because if you had any kind of um, you know, what would be considered like a weaker gene or something that would make you, you know, a little less able to hunt and defend, um you probably weren't getting any.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

Yeah. But you could tell that Bea was definitely into Greer. I mean, they were kind of like into each other. It's gonna be the couple that would survive. Right, right. So yeah, that's definitely interesting. So um, all of the group but Greer uh end up cannibalizing Adam's body to avoid starving. Um, so Greer, poor Greer, he unsuccessfully attempts to lead the group through the woods. Uh Oldal, is it Old Oldal? Oldell, Odal, believing that they are being stalked by a demon. He blames uh Bea's menstrual cycle and attempts to sacrifice her with help from Ave. And I was just like, Whew, this is there's a lot going on in this movie. I think me and Marty said that when we were watching it. We were like, there is a lot going on.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

Again, history of religions-wise, there's always been so there's always been evidence. Wherever there's human beings, there's evidence of sacrifice, human sacrifice.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Oh, I thought you were gonna say of drama.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

Well, yeah, that's for that for damn sure. But uh yeah, and so you just wonder how the thought like came into you know, early hominid, uh, you know, where where and when it came from that you would have to like either there was some uh defilement, and which is you know talked about in this one terms of remenstruation, because we certainly know a lot about purity laws about around menstruation in you know the history of religions, but there's there's also the idea of propitiating some demon or some god or or whatever by you know sacrificing a human life. And there's even these kind of transition moments in the history of religions again into animal sacrifice and sort of like the making satifry sacrifice more of a metaphor and all these kind of stuff. But like, you know, back at this time, just this is a very interesting way to portray, you know, how sacrifice would like pop into somebody's mind where you know it's this kind of like superstitious, I guess from our perspective, like thing you need to to to do to do or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Well, yeah, that's another thing, like where you know, is that inherent to humans, like that sort of you know, underlying violence, um, you know, as things get more de uh desperate, right? So is that when our because they they started as this close-knit pack, right? Or whatever. They they all have their roles and um as they go through this, those roles uh degrade and the whole idea of like their society um degrades as well. Right. So I just wondered like if you know one of these is just a theme of the earliest forms of of like war, like where does some of this come from? And and is that just like are they are the uh you know uh creators of this movie trying to say that that's inherent in us, you know, the sort of like that we humans and even our you know ancestors um will degrade down into violence towards each other if the circumstances are you know just right. So even like sacrificing maybe like it occurs to you because you're like, well, everything else, you know, nothing else has worked, so I'm just going to uh you know see if uh killing my you know fellow um human being is a possibility. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Yeah. I yeah, uh uh out of my experience of watching tons of zombie apocalypse horror movies, the the the breakdown of society is definitely happening the the more desperate you get. I mean, uh people will kill each other, they will throw each other in front of entity, you know, it's it's name like you know, I always tell Marty like the humans are the monsters or the real monsters, you know. Um for sure. Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We will definitely turn on each other in a heartbeat uh for survival. And I I I agree with you. I think it's just maybe as simple as like some kind of survival instinct that we have where we're like pushing people in in front of us, right? You know, you want to run faster than the slowest person in the group. So exactly, exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Yet there was this unity that Andrea talked about at the at least at the beginning. I mean, to convince people to take off in a shit boat, like to know to somewhere you don't know where it is. I mean, you gotta have some if it's not love, it's some kind of loyalty or hope or something. And I mean that could be the interesting uh, I don't know, religious imagery around I'm gonna bring the light here or whatever, that just like seeing that confidence like like like sucked them in. But then at the same time, you see this fall apart so quickly. And as we know, like you know, growing up in America, when we hear about the the good old pilgrims screwing up at uh I don't I don't know it's just I mean who it wasn't really the pilgrims, I guess. Whatever the first uh settlement was there on the Chesapeake, um, all of a sudden I'm forgetting the name of it. The Jamestown? Jamestown, yes, thank you. Jamestown. It was a total fucking nightmare disaster. It was so and people, yes, turned to cannibalism as well. Yeah. So like all kinds of shit went down. So yeah, I mean, it's it's a very familiar story in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

So is that like I guess like which fear because they they were facing right when they left that original wherever they were from, um, they said they were starving there, you know, too. So like they tried to follow the herds, but like the herds didn't didn't go, and so they ended up like not having any food. So like was a fear of starving there less um than the fear of the unknown of going to you know this this new world, because at least there was some possibility of um you know a hope or of uh surviving or thriving or you know um finding something. But uh but then like you said, like then another fear takes over, and that's where I wonder if like sometimes just like that you know from a depressing standpoint, uh is the fear stronger than you know any kind of um hope or positivity because the breaks down to saying, like, okay, not group anymore. Now it's every you know stone age person for themselves. Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Yeah, our our ancestors, and the reason why we're alive right now is either because we're related to the ones who had hope even when things got hard and stuck together, or is it because we're related to the ones who bashed each other's skulls in and you know, we're the one that survives. Maybe again it's just a combination sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:49

Yeah, a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. We had hope, but we would fight you two. Like we'd still kill each other. Right, exactly. Right. Um, so yeah, so they're trying to they're trying to sacrifice Bea. Uh, there's a scuffle. Greer is knocked unconscious, and Bea escapes. Uh Odal instead uses uh Avi as a replacement sacrifice and stabs her, uh, but she manages to break his ankle in the process. That was gross too. I'm sorry. That was gross. Is that what I think that is? Yeah. Yes. It was very gross.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah. And I was also thinking, like, man, you're in the stone age. You are so screwed. Can you break a bone, you know, any bone?

SPEAKER_03 39:36

I I just don't think. I mean, I don't, I mean, obviously, I'm a wuss today by by you know comparison, but sometimes when I watch these movies, I'm like, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have lasted two minutes. Like, I went to I wouldn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Like we started off okay, clean, but then you know, after that, yeah, I was like, any cut you get is so infected, and then you're dead, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

It's amazing that we are where we are because it's like yeah, because we're related to the people who made it somehow or another. Yeah, right, yeah, or at least broken bones age of reproduction or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

Much after that, that you know, yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

All right, yeah. So with the forest lit by the northern lights, which is a gorgeous scene. I mean, this cinematography in this movie, like Marty already mentioned, is absolutely beautiful. Umal watches the creature takes Avi's body. Uh the next morning, Bea finds Greer and they witness the creature killing uh Odal. Uh, they try to ambush it, pulling off what we find out is a mask. And so this is like the big twist of this movie, right? The big reveal. Uh, they discover that it is a female uh Neanderthal and not a creature, although like she's wearing like this really cool creature-looking mask. And I'm like, oh, how'd she make that? I mean, that a predator, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:11

It didn't look that's what it reminded me of. And like even the scenes before that, like how she was dragging people or like snatching them, you know, and very predator-like.

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Yes, yeah, yeah. Uh, so she runs off. Uh, they trail her to the mountains and find a cave where Bea believes the the Neanderthal lives. And I mean, there's is there cave drawings in this cave? Does anybody remember?

SPEAKER_01 41:35

Didn't they see dark that um because they didn't bring anything until the until they you know come across the fire of the cave? Right. Um it was so dark that I wouldn't, I don't know if we would have seen the uh any cave drawings.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

I couldn't remember for some reason. I thought like when they were first approaching the cave, they see them, but maybe I just probably inserted them. My brain probably inserted that.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Well, that was that one movie we saw, Shar, about where they had the cave drawings uh when they go underground and get lost in those underground caverns with the bell people.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

It was um the descent.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Those are those, but um, so I guess again, they're they don't usually attribute cave drawings to uh Neanderthal. But one of the big one of the big misunderstandings about Neanderthal was that, and this got portrayed in Quest for Fire as I remember it for as a kid. The big the big uh idea at that time was that Homo sapiens uh did not interbreed at all with Neanderthal, they just wiped them out. Um, and one of the major differences that they thought uh was there was between Neanderthal and Homo sapien was that uh Homo sapien uh was capable of symbolic um behavior, symbolic uh you know, representation.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, all that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

And that Neanderthal was just more of an animal or whatever, yeah. But that but the movie incorporated a lot of other type of art and culture that was a part of Neanderthal life. And part of what the little boy's speech is, which we'll talk about again, is just that no, these were human beings, like and so one of the things that he mentions is burial, and that's like one of the first things that like really shocked people that started to change people's minds, they found a Neanderthal burial site where you know their their dead were laid, you know, to rest in a in a in a kind and loving way and a thoughtful way that seemed to even include like pollen from ancient flowers and stuff like that. So there was symbolic evidence of symbolic behavior. But since then, even more evidence of yeah, beaded culture and like they were human beings, like uh and and so that was just this big thing that changed uh over time.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah. Well, and I think they found actually Neanderthal DNA in uh modern humans now, like or bits, yeah, would be uh well well.

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Yeah, in uh yeah, and mostly in not not in uh none in sub-Saharan Africa. So nobody mixed with Neanderthal down there. Like but like those uh that spread out north uh did. Uh and uh even in China, all the way to China, but like there's also another type of humanoid that was there that I can't remember the name of right now that they they intermixed with.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Uh but Homo normalis, maybe? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

I have to Yeah, it it wasn't you're right, it wasn't until they actually sequenced the human uh DNA, and then there's this incredibly harrowing story that's unbelievable science. Like it's one of these really cool science stories. It was on PBS, I can't remember the name of it right now, but it was about the dude who figured out how to get the mitochondrial DNA out of a Neanderthal sample, and then real and then they sequenced it and realized that there's some people in Europe who have up to like five, five to six percent, you know, and the average is like three to four percent, but like all of it Neanderthal DNA, and there's all this like speculation as to what is actually Neanderthal DNA. For example, red hair, super uh active uh immune systems, hyperactive immune systems, and uh other kinds of things that people think came from uh possibly from Neanderthal, but they also realized that the Neanderthal samples that they had, some of the early ones were of a crippled Neanderthal person. So they thought they were shorter and more bolt-legged than they were. They were more stout and they did have the pronounced brow and stuff like that. That's true, but like they were going, they didn't have enough good samples to realize that they were not super crouched over and bolt-legged, and like they thought they were almost apes at one point, but they weren't. They were, you know, shorter, stouter, you know, human beings. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Yeah, okay. So when Bea enters the cave, she is attacked by a male uh Neanderthal who pins her to the ground, attempting to strangle her. And this is a very tense scene uh when she's getting strangled, strangled. Uh Bea stabs him, he rolls off of her. Uh, then Bea retrieves a wooden spear that she stole from Adam, the really cool kind of like white spear with all the of the markings um on it. Um, and she stabs the Neanderthal, seriously wounding him. Um, she continues through the cave where she discovers Heron unharmed. Uh Bea is confronted by the uh female Neanderthal. Greer, hearing Bea screams, finishes off the dying male Neanderthal and continues through the cave to find Bea. The female attacks Greer with a stone axe and kills him. And that's kind of sad because it's just like happened so fast. And then he just is like out for the cow. And it's kind of like, oh, I thought they were gonna, like you said, Adrian thought they were gonna be together. But no. Um, so the female threatens Bea, but Bea manages to set this fur bed on fire and creates this big fire within the cave, which looks really cool. Like, I don't know like if it was real fire or CGI fire or not, I don't know. But I the that fire in that cave looks looks really cool. Um so she escapes, Bea escapes with Heron uh through a very small vertical opening uh in the cave, and the female tries to escape also, but she gets stuck at the top. Uh Haron comes and tries to save her, but Bea kills her with a rock. And it's crazy because I thought, like when I first saw this movie, and you see uh Heron struggling to get the female Neanderthal out of the cave, and then you see Bea come up. I'm like, oh, she's gonna help. No, she's not happening. Any parts of it. She's like, uh, hell no. Um, she tells Heron that Neanderthals are monsters who kill the members of their group. Uh Heron disagrees. He says they are like us, implying that they fed him and protected him. So, Marty, I think this was a little bit of what you were just saying. Um, how uh the little 11-year-old is saying, you know, no, they're they're more like us than what you realize. Um, and the film ends with Bea detelling their story. So now she is telling a story. And I like how the the movie is book-ended by these stories, right? So she's telling their story. She seems to regret killing the Neanderthal, stating they were just people as terrified of the unknown as her group. Uh Huron shows Bea Avi's body laid out in the cave, uh, which has been prepared for a funeral by the Neanderthals. And Marty, I know you were just mentioning that too. Uh, the two of them bury the rest of the dead. Bea continues her story and states she and the boy learn to survive, the first of a new people. Haron asks, What do we do now? And Bea simply says, We try again.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

All right, so now they're the couple that starts the whole thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Yeah, I guess so.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Gotta wait a little bit on the dude, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 49:13

But yeah, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I don't know. He's 11, couple years at least, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Yeah, and yet another, you know, society that's begun by, you know, mass violence. So another kind of interesting, you know. And I should just say anthropologically as well, they there was this idea for a while that you know, Neanderthal were wiped out by Homo sapiens because they were less violent than Homo sapien. Um, and and that thesis came from the looking at Homo sapien skulls and like counting like the percentage of human skulls that were bashed in by other human beings. Oh wow. Yeah. But they found out, like, I don't know, like uh how how good this research is, but that the more examples that they have of Neanderthal skulls, the more they find that they were bashing each other's skulls in just as much as everybody else. So like there was violence uh you know among humanoids, period, kind of a thing. So yeah, I don't know. It's just uh kind of interesting to see the the total difference. Like in um Quest for Fire, uh this 80s crazy movie, like the it that's about a Neanderthal or maybe a Cro Magnon tribe in Europe. Um, they uh they are they're like portrayed like so as as like more peaceful. Um so like there's this famous split again in uh like whatever you call the study of primates, primatology between our closest relatives, uh but bonabos and chimpanzees, and supposedly bonabos are very peaceful. And so it was like thought of like Neanderthell thought of like these bonabos, like these hippies that would like, you know, supposedly just mate with whoever everybody can mate with everybody else, like you know, just open season, whatever equality and like no alpha male. They kind of have found that that's not exactly true, that it was like kind of like hippies looking at the bonabos thought that that's how they were living or whatever. But like, but they were like they they've found that they're in many ways as violent as chimpanzees, but chimpanzees are notoriously violent. Uh, you know, and and also, you know, one of the things that Jane Goodall discovered when she was like uh you know, looking at chimpanzees, because it was thought that animals wouldn't kill or become violent without need or whatever. And she found that no, that's not true, that there is there that chimpanzees were more than willing to like just kill to kill totally unnecessarily, maybe not for competition. You know, right? But like there, there she was seeing that she Jane Goodall was seeing that. I mean, maybe maybe not, but Jane Goodall was saying like there were just troops of like teenage male chimps that would just go around and and find like you know, people I don't know, people chimpanzees that like you know had nothing to do with them, weren't weren't weren't encroaching on their and just kill them, just to kill them, kind of a thing.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Did you did you guys hear about the so a couple weeks ago, maybe a month ago, I was listening to uh one of my favorite podcasts, and they were talking about that there was a champ uh chimpanzee war, civil war going on. God, I can't remember what country it was. I'll have to look it up. But basically, there's like these chimpanzees, they were like one big group at one point, and for some reason they can't figure out because you know Jane Goodall passed away. We need her help more than ever now. They they fractioned off into like two different groups, and they've been like battling each other, and they cannot figure out why, because it's not usually they like you said, really, like it's usually like for land or resources, but they're like they've got plenty of that wherever they like, but for some reason they just broke into two groups and now they're just fighting each other and they're trying to figure out why. And I'm like, that's crazy. It's like Planet of the Apes, but with chips.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

Well, um you mentioned that the the original title of this movie, the working title or whatever was actually the origin. Yeah, I like it. I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, yeah. I thought that was cool. I think there was a lot to be said for like sort of that what we've been talking about here, too. Like, so okay, they're starting over, right? But so it's part of this that um sort of gaining that awareness, like so. She, you know, kills the Neanderthal and then um then feels bad about it. So that's sort of that evolution, right? Of like, okay, yeah, we're violent, but at least I'm sort of figuring out that um there is this thing called, you know, like that is like us or um whatever. There's a category that's like us, and um maybe I should, you know, not just immediately kill first. Um chill out a little bit. Yeah. Chill out a little bit. Um, but like I think you're right, like like in terms of the starting from, you know, like that all these like societies or whatever, they have this inherent need to just beat the shit out of each other and right exactly.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Well, I wonder if it's only the two of them, too. I mean, you would assume that they would have to mix with the Neanderthals that are already there because they they only killed two. There's I mean, and they were clearly had a society, so you know, maybe that was they didn't have a child himself or something, like yeah, right, exactly. Got the 11-year-old Yeah, which was a weird yeah, explanation to me. If I understood it correctly, the 11-year-old was saying, like, she took me because she saw that you guys couldn't take care of me, basically, or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 54:43

That's what he said. Yeah, that's what he said, but you got to remember he's an 11-year-old. So I I don't know why they took him. I that isn't because they didn't, he's unharmed, so they didn't hurt him in any type of way. Um I almost think maybe it was to like maybe to like maybe preserve their bloodline, maybe at at some point. I I have no idea. Uh that's the only thing I could think of. I don't know why they would take him otherwise because that's just an another mouth they have to feed, right? So that doesn't really, I don't know. It is not their genes, right? I guess I didn't understand that.

SPEAKER_00 55:24

Yeah, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Yeah, that's the thing too. That's sort of like, yeah, that would be very much against biological anthropology, uh, that you would take something that was, you know, not you know, going to pass on your genes and care for it. And that's actually one of the things that they noticed first, uh, that kind of like defined humans as humans is like uh you mentioned the old guy who you know you can't, you couldn't believe he was alive. But uh he as you know, the thing is what they found in like a lot of human settlements, uh, is that there were older uh remains of people who had reached an old age and were basically so crippled that they couldn't have been helpful in any way to their society. So they were being cared for and kept alive past the age of reproduction, past the any usefulness, and even to the point where if you're in a hunter-gatherer society, there's some burden that's placed on you to keep this, you know, this calorie-consuming dead weight around, so that you know, you gotta haul their ass wherever you're going, and they're you know vulnerable because you they're not as mobile and all kinds of stuff. So there's a real cat, there's a real trade-off being made that we're you know, it's just we're not just these pure biological, you know, prediction machines that just want to reduce uncertainty and you know, and and and produce advan, and you know, and like all of our decisions are about evolutionary advantage or just advantage in general, you know, for survival reproduction. So we we make you know decisions that are not real, you know, that seem to be outside of that. And so certainly the idea that a Neanderthal would come and kidnap a kid so that they could, you know, take care of it because it was sick, um, which is what's presented, um, you know, would be outside of any kind of you know pure biological need, unless, Andrea, are you saying that passing on the genes or like, or no, that was you, Charlotte said passing on the genes.

SPEAKER_03 57:24

Yeah, that's a I was gonna say, I don't know. I that was just a stab in the dark because I don't understand why they would take him in. Um, but to go back, I kind of wanted to go back to what you were saying about the older people in the I think there is a line in this movie where Adem does say to Odell, like, you will be the first, basically, like to get kicked out or whatever. Um, and uh Odell says, Well, I'm a good tracker. Like he had to almost present sell himself because I think he does know, like, I am the you know, weakest link here, uh, me and the pregnant lady over here. So yeah, like I I feel like, you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Well he he calls himself something, like, isn't there like a um to your point, Charlotte? There's like a there's a scene where he's he's actually talking to Bea and saying, like, okay, well here, you know, we got Adam's the Yes, whatever. Yes, that's what about and you know, what's her face is carrying life. Right. Um, you know, and um he's back up. And then he's I think he says something about he's the wit, he is wisdom, you know, and he's wisdom, yeah. He's like, you know, and I and I I thought that was sort of an interesting thing, like an evolution of like when, you know, and maybe that's something that's so early in you know our evolution of valuing elders for wisdom, that that's actually something that's not a um, you know, it's not something tangible necessarily, but like kind of goes back to that, like um how early were we telling stories, how early, you know, you know, the st the storytellers had to be the ones that had the wisdom because they would have exactly you know all that stuff to know like you know what was happening. So maybe there was some value placed on being older because uh you survived, right? So you were smart enough. And I think that you know, Odell's character was sort of um not just the wisdom or the the you know elder, he was also sort of the wily um, you know, character, like sort of that mischievous, you know, whatever. Yeah, you know, I think there was some evaluation of saying, yep, you made it to old age, hurrah. You know, that's an amazing feat for somebody of our missing you you have something of value, you know, there too. And then wanting to pass it along. So not even not in like a um procreation way, but like, you know, just yeah, okay, you hold this wisdom. Um we'll keep you around, tell your stories.

SPEAKER_03 59:45

Whereas the stray, you know, like had um supposedly no value, even though she was the total badass and uh I disagreed with yeah, and I I think there's I think that I love that point in this movie is is the one that they were so quickly to uh discount at the beginning was the one who ended up surviving, right? And and and and just defeating everybody um in this in this in this movie. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

So who is the monster, I guess, in this, you know, whole thing. Like who's the monster?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

Right. Exactly. Is it her? I think she's I don't know. I mean, I feel like a little bit, I think she's a little bit of a monster because she was just and she's our er mother. Right, right. She is, yeah. But yeah, it's like she was the monster, but she also was the the savior, you know. So I don't know. It's it's I guess you can be I guess you can be both of those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:49

Yeah, I was thinking like there's more than one monster, it just depends on who the uh you know who your perspective is. True, that is true. Looking in from the uh the darkness or the or the light on the outside, and right, yeah, yeah. All of us can be monsters.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

Yeah, I yeah, yeah, exactly. I guess I yeah, I would say that that that's that's what this movie is probably telling us, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:12

She may have changed her reproduction strategy though, just by the little speech she gives about how the next time I see a Neanderthal, I won't kill him. So, like you there has to be other Neanderthals around there. So I'm guessing you know, maybe she either reproduces with the boy when he gets older or with a Neanderthal, you know, and so like it's one of these uh things we talked about mixed mixed strategies. Uh certainly there were plenty of Homo sapiens who had the strategy of just murder uh, you know, anybody who's in our spot or in our way or whatever. And then there were others who apparently, you know, took ne took Neanderthal wives. I mean, I I think too, you know, we we know about uh our history uh in Ireland and even in Germany of the success uh of these like constant raids from the north, who people who became, you know, well, Scandinavian or the Vikings or whatever, and the idea of like genetic um, I don't know, like um the genetic effect that had of sometimes you know, 90% of the men in villages that were raided were murdered, and then the women were not. Uh so that you know they either reproduced with them and left or stayed, many of them stayed or whatever. Uh, but like, you know, all of us uh from Ireland, uh, and and again, even Germany, even though it's considered like kind of a part of that whole uh racial group, Germany was constantly being invaded from the north too, uh, you know, northern Gothic tribes and stuff like that. So like, and then the Goths were like constantly invading South into the, you know, so that's why you get like all these like light-haired, light-skinned people, you know, in uh, you know, southern Europe and stuff like that, uh, who would have been looking more like the people of uh of the movie rather than uh like us.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:11

Yeah. All right. So I already talked about the mixed the made-up language, right? So that was that was something we already talked about. Uh just a couple more fun facts. Uh, printable photography took place during the COVID-19 lockdown in November of 2020 in Scotland. I thought that was very interesting. Uh, this film received multiple nominations at the British Independent Film Award. This is a British movie, um, including Best Debut Director for Andrew Cumming, Best Music, which I agree. This score is awesome. It is so good.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:48

It was.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

Um, best, yeah, best hair and makeup, and best breakthrough actor for uh Safia Oakley Green, the actor who played Bea, and she did win that. And I I think that was very well deserved. Yeah. Yeah. So um, all right. Well, uh, I will just go around and kind of give our like final thoughts on this movie. So uh we'll start with you, Andrea.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:16

Um, yeah, final thoughts. I liked the I really enjoyed the themes of this. I thought it, you know, um maybe think, which I always appreciate um with this too. And uh I'm just so impressed with the the visuals, the um made-up language um too, you know, and how the actors set up and a lot of like what um the actors portrayed even in their facial expressions through like yeah, shirt and everything else. Like I was amazed like the the talent of the uh of the actors, and this especially is that they weren't like big named, you know, um A-listers or things. Right, you know, right? Yeah. So yeah, overall I thought that uh it was uh a really thoughtful movie and um I enjoyed it. Yeah, great.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:59

Marty, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Yeah, I mean, as is evidenced by all my comments, I I really enjoy it and it's certainly made me think, and I like to I like to see how you know recent research gets put in gets put into movies and stuff like that and dramatized and stuff like that, and just a lot of great religious studies themes, which I what I'm interested in, especially the storytelling and the sacrifice. I would just say something too. I wish I was a musicologist, I would know more about it, but um just the way that that the um you know soundtrack sounded modern, but it used um these like what you would imagine really traditional elements. Would you say, sweet, what'd you say? I didn't hear you.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

I was just thinking it was uh primal, like you know, kind of that heartbeat, like like almost like biological um sounds, you know, too that would have been that I could imagine were would be made by people of the Stone Age, you know, as sort of that combination of um what they were hearing. Yeah. And the and the hand clap. Mia Murdy called out the hidden clapping.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

So interesting, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what yeah, way to go with all that. Like the clapping, the rattles, the deep drums and stuff like that. Um, I mean, again, like you can imagine that well, they do. And the one little thing I know about musicology is like flutes and drums were real early on, that's or some version of a founder.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

You know, because you can you can you can make it with your breath, but you could also, you know, we would have heard of it then um whistling across reeds, you know, like so it would have been something that they could recreate. Um, and drums obviously are are a pretty easy one to um imagine.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

For sure. Well, yeah, and there are also remains found of all those things. And I I just I just uh not only are we um I I don't know, not not only are we um storytellers, but we're also we also make music, and that's uh such an important part of who we are. And so it is um you know and there is there's even some speculation about early language, uh especially that of the Neanderthal. There's there was like uh this one theory that they that they would have sung almost when they spoke. And that actually the first language wasn't really for you know communicating uh like uh about basic logistics and stuff like that. It was actually more for this communal sort of like celebration of like um, you know, what is I mean, who knows? These are all all theories. I kind of like that one because it involves uh, you know, and then you can you can even hear some in some languages today more of a that they're like most more spoken song, like Asian languages and stuff like that than than those very you know, Germanic, you know, like you know, um kind of way that we speak.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:52

So a little bit like bird song, you know, too. So you're oh totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:55

Oh, absolutely. I mean that's there's even speculation that that's sort of like what people were doing. They were sort of imitating bird song, you know, like and that's kind of where language comes. I like the idea that language comes from music rather than practicality, but whatever. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I yeah, I I I just I love this. I absolutely love this uh movie. So I I just jot it down like four things that I really like about this movie. Number one, I love the score. We just talked about it. We talked about it throughout the this podcast about throughout this episode. Uh I just want to do, I want to give a shout out because the music is by uh Adam uh Jainata Borowski. So just want to give him his props for making an awesome score. Uh cinematography is absolutely gorgeous. This film is beautiful. Um, shout out to cinematographer uh Ben Fordsman. Um, I also like this movie because, as we talked about, like the darkness and the forest and the the creepiness of it all. I would liken this movie to a prehistoric Blair Witch project. Like that's the kind of vibes I was getting where you can along with the make out.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:13

When they come back on Adam's body because they had been trying to get out and they come back on his body again. I mean, that was straight Blair Witch, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:20

Straight Blair Witch. Not being able to really see what's going on in the woods, in the forest, is is full on Blair Witch. So I love that. And um, another the my last point is I listened to a podcast where anytime a woman does something like phenomenal, like solves a crime, or does something like really badass, the host always says, like, let the women do the work. And that's exactly what this movie uh sung to me. Let the women do the work. Vega is doing everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:51

She's let Bay do the work.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:53

Let Vega do the work. Bea's doing everything. She's I I put she's mercy killing Adam and serving him for dinner. And I was just like, not gonna feed all you. Just do it all of it. Just let Vega do it all. She's doing it all. So yeah, I really I I enjoyed this movie so much. And I'm now that I I I love watching movies a second time because the first time you're watching it and you're just trying to figure out what's going on. But once you know what's going on, the second viewing, you can kind of sit back and relax and and and see some things that you missed the first time. And I definitely got to do that, the second viewing. So yeah, it made me love the movie even more. So great.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:35

Any any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:40

I just uh one other little tiny point uh that I had read, like that struck me as could you also see this movie as post um apocalyptical, like in terms of you know, like you know, same thing could have been like after society, you know, because I think since it came out originally, I think in Europe, right in the in 2022, so right in the middle of like the shit was going down, you know, like still with um the pandemic.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:06

Yeah, you know, I just kind of saw like that this easily could have also because you were you were saying, you know, like as a Blair Witch project, um, you know, pre in the prehistoric times, but I think also like you know, maybe after society has collapsed and they're trying again, you know, to say, okay, you know, we've gone backwards. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:24

Yeah, that's a really good point, especially like you said, in the time period that it's taking place, like right after COVID when we all thought the world could possibly end, you know. So yeah, that's really interesting. I like that point. Um, okay, well, I cannot believe that we are almost done with our nature horror season. Like uh it has been, it's been a great ride. We have just one more regular episode, uh, and then we'll have a kind of like a wrap-up episode where we'll discuss all the movies that we've watched in this season and discuss what they say about the human desire. Uh, but before we announce what we're covering next time, please be sure to follow the podcast so you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. Also, leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcast or on Spotify. We also have an Instagram account. Please follow us at the Desire of Horror Podcast. So next time we meet, we will be discussing the documentary Grizzly Man. So, Marty, this was an another one of your suggestions. Um I will have to say, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

I was just gonna say Werner Hosog is just too weird, and he has had a whole career of of like seeing nature as both wonderful and fascinating, but totally vicious and chaotic at the same time. And so it's just it just for me just fit, I mean, so much into this. I mean, his speech that he gives in the uh the whatever the the uh the the weight of dreams or something like that in the middle of the Amazon rainforest about like he's like nature isn't your friend, and it's not an equilibrium, it's not like a balance, it's not a harmony, he's like it's a cacophony of collective murder and copulation and fornication or something. That's just like so wonderful. And then to watch him just like you know, see this guy, Timothy Treadwell, who takes like the nature, the you know, the nature, whatever, as like the ultimate kind of like ethos of like, oh, these bears love me, and I'm in balance with them, and they're in balance with each other, and like you know, we're all together out here in this more natural way to be. And you know, that this that's just like the antithesis of what Herzog has represented said his whole life or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, I I mean, even though this isn't technically a horror movie, it is very much a horror documentary, if there is such a thing. Oh god, yeah. Pretty pretty disturbing. So all right. Well, Andrea, thank you once again for joining us. Thanks for having me again, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:13

I had a blast. I appreciate it. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:16

I will see you if you if you still like it after this next movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:19

So it's a it's a it's a hard watch. I already think nature's out to get me, I swear. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

But just remember, Herzog says in that speech, and I don't think he says here because he says, he says, but I but I love it against my better judgment.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

So there's this ambiguity. There's this ambiguity about it. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:41

All right, so please join us. Thank you for listening. And until we meet again, have a good week and take care of each other.