For Pastors
Vic Francis combines his background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world.
For Pastors aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives.
For Pastors
In Search of Young Pastors
In this first episode of a seven-part pilot the new For Pastors podcast goes in search of young pastors, with older pastor Vic Francis talking to younger pastors Aaron Hardy and Alisha Wiseman about their experiences and how we can unlock a new wave of young leaders in our churches.
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PS: A big thanks to Joel Francis, for his genius in guiding his father towards getting this podcast out. Couldn't have done it without you!
Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. In this episode, we are going in search of young pastors.
Kia ora, and welcome to the For Pastors podcast, this week entitled In Search of Young Pastors. The church is facing a crisis, with many pastors in their fifties and sixties retiring or getting close to retirement, and only a trickle of new pastors are coming through to take their places. Today I am joined by Alisha Wiseman and Aaron Hardy, two youngish pastors who have bucked that trend, committing themselves to pastoral ministry where many of their generation are preferring not to. Aaron, Alisha, welcome to the For Pastors podcast.
Alisha Wiseman:Thanks, Vic.
Aaron Hardy:Kia ora.
Alisha Wiseman:Good to be here.
Vic Francis:Alisha, maybe we'll start with you. Tell us just a little bit about who you are, where you're from, what's your church?
Alisha Wiseman:Kia ora. Yeah, my name's Alisha. I originally come from Cambridge in the Waikato, but I have called Auckland my home now for over 20 years. Yeah. And here in Auckland, I have my husband Rob and my two young fierce amazingly beautiful two girls.
Vic Francis:Fierce girls. That's great. And what church do you pastor? Alisha?
Alisha Wiseman:We co-lead Central Vineyard in the centre of Auckland here.
Vic Francis:In the centre of Auckland. Wonderful. And Aaron, you, where are you from and what's your church? Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Aaron Hardy:Kia ora. Tena korua. So my name's Aaron. I grew up in Palmerston North, but I lead a church in Hamilton, Kirikiriroa. I am married to Te Ata. We've got three children, Tākirikoteata, Hawaiki and Te Āio. And yeah, I've been leading Te Rautini for 16 years.
Vic Francis:16 years. Wow. And are your children fierce, by the way? It seems, it seems like a good word.
Aaron Hardy:I mean, my oldest girl is more angelic than fierce, but my boys pick up the fierce dinosaur traits well and truly.
Vic Francis:Oh, how beautiful. Congratulations and, and it's a beautiful time of your life, I can say as, uh, somebody whose children are well grown up, but in the grandparent years, enjoy and love it, both of you. Before we get into the subject of the day, Alisha, it would be great to meet Central Vineyard. Tell me, what is Central Vineyard? Who are you, what are you passionate about? What makes it distinct?
Alisha Wiseman:It is a church based in Auckland from the Vineyard movement actually planted out of your church, Vic? It is indeed. Shore Vineyard. Planted by Dan and Gab Sheed and it is 10 years old now. Wow. And who knew that 10 years ago, a bunch of us would get together in the lounge and pray and worship together. Dream of what a church would be it's just a beautiful church that I dearly love. Our distinctive, I guess, is that we just love spiritual transformation. I think, you know the phrase of, as the leaders go, so does the church. And it's often based out of, you know, talking about integrity, but I think it's also the church goes where the leader is passionate about also. Our passion isn't just to come to church on a Sunday, but to be transformed and to become more like Jesus in a deep way throughout the week. And so we embody that in a different way. We do different things like gather in a circle and have charismatic things as well as the old traditional things. And another distinctive is that we are co-led, like I said, so two couples lead. Wow. The responsibility of the church.
Vic Francis:And so that's you and Rob and still Dan and Gab? That's right. Who kicked off the church. And you've been there from the very beginning, I think?
Alisha Wiseman:I have From the very beginning in that lounge.
Vic Francis:10 years since we prayed you guys out. What an amazing time it's been. If I came on a Sunday, what could I see? How would it be different, if at all, from, from what I might experience in going to any other church?
Alisha Wiseman:It is very similar in that we are just imperfect people trying to serve the Lord wholeheartedly. But I think as you walk in, you probably will see that, like I said, we gathered in a circle with the centre being the communion table and the cross. We don't use the stage. And in that, what we're trying to embody is that the centre is Jesus. So that's beautiful and also can be really awkward as you are looking across the worship and seeing other people eye to eye. But we're trying to create that beautiful, centred, connected body of Christ all together. And we also have liturgy. We also have ministry. So we are holding both the fruit and the gifts, the old tradition as well as the Spirit led, both together holy'cause we believe both are really important.
Vic Francis:That sounds like a wonderful combination of ancient, I guess, and modern. Thank you for that. It's nice just to get a feel of the church that you're pastoring. Aaron, how about, Te Rautini? Tell us a little bit about the history of that and, and what's its distinctives.
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, so we started Te Rautini 16 years ago, we moved to Hamilton with about seven of us from Palmerston North, with the idea that we were gonna start a church by young adults, that type of thing. I ended up moving into a pretty rough part of Hamilton and I pulled a family out of their home that were being abused in the first week that I was staying there. For whatever reason, my 21-year-old self just went, instead of calling the police, I'll just go knock on the door. Obviously no one answers. So I just walk into their house and say, Hey, do you guys wanna come with me? And so they did and left the father there. They stayed the night and then literally we started church the next day. So it kind of broke all of our plans. Um, Te Rautini means many feathers. It's a name that's built around the idea that we come to Christ as being the korowai, or the, how do I explain this for international listeners, um, korowai being sort of like the sacred cloak in indigenous tradition has lots of different meanings from practically keeping you warm to being significant for honouring and, other types of things like that. But the idea of that being that the korowai in our situation is the story of Jesus, but the feathers representing the many different cultures and the stories in which we attach ourselves to that story of Christ. So, our big idea is that we have always endeavoured to be a community that's a reflection of Aotearoa New Zealand. We didn't want to be an imitation of anywhere else or anything else. And so our longing is, it's not actually to be different, it's to be ordinary. And I was explaining to people the other day, you know, the word Māori means natural or normal. And so a big part of our task is actually taking that which feels like kind of special or unique or, or whatever it is, but actually going, actually there's a big part of our nation's story which has been sidelined and has left us in a massive identity crisis where we're more similar to Europe or America than we are to actually where we are. And so our longing has been like, let's dive into history and story and see what, what God's been doing. This idea that somehow if we engage with history and culture and all of those things, God's kingdom will come here in the way that it's uniquely supposed to.
Vic Francis:You as a church have been noted for your introduction of Te Reo Māori songs. Would that be a feature if I was to visit?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, we, we try pretty hard to have, um, a good proportion of all of our songs in Te Reo Māori And yeah, that's been a huge part of pushing the story forward actually. For whatever reason, music and the combination of that with the presence of Holy Spirit creates an ease in these conversations where at times there's been only angst and fear and all of the rest. So yeah, that's definitely a big part. You'll experience that and Te Reo Māori in many parts of the service in liturgy, in song, in speaking.
Vic Francis:Well, you may listen to some of the other podcasts on the series, Aaron, but I was interviewing the Archbishop, Justin Duckworth, the other day and he was talking about, movements that have made a difference. And he mentioned Te Rautini in that context in terms of introducing Te Reo into our worship. And so it's lovely to be speaking to you about that. Uh, one of the things that I know about you is that you're both pastors' kids, and I'm sure that brings certain, angst and background to it. But you've both become pastors yourself, so I'm fascinated to find out a little bit about how that journey has been. Alisha, maybe we can start with you. Were you always gonna be a pastor being a pastor's kid?
Alisha Wiseman:No. No, no, no. In fact, I vowed that I would not, as a teenager, become a church leader and especially a pastor. Goodness. My story I always say is that it shows that God is gentle and he also has a sense of humour because that was not on the plan whatsoever.
Vic Francis:It's not the sort of vow that you should be making by the sound of it.
Alisha Wiseman:I know. Isn't it interesting? Yeah.
Vic Francis:What happened? Why didn't you want to be, and why did you want to be?
Alisha Wiseman:I think I had witnessed a lot of the darker sides of ministry and I think that I had seen too much heartbreak, felt too much heartbreak myself, and I just didn't wanna participate in that ever again. Wow. I loved God. The church felt unsafe but over time, my stubbornness continued for me to attend church even though I didn't trust the people and I just over time with certain churches, God just healed me in these most beautiful ways, especially when I was overseas in the UK and I just fell in love with the people again. And when I returned back from the UK looking for a church I said yes to being a part of this church plant with the hope that we were gonna support Dan and Gabs. Yeah. With not the aim to be leaders at all. Yeah. And then gently, I just said yes to the thing in front of me and, lo and behold, I somehow came into church leadership and not until in the third year of Central Vineyard did I have to make the actual decision of, okay, are we gonna become co-leaders when we were asked? And that was the point of, goodness, this is the vow that I said I was gonna say no to. Yes. And I really need to consider this and discern and pray as to whether this yes is because it is a responsibility and weight.
Vic Francis:How does that journey feel to you now sitting here? Are you pleased that you went through it at least at some level to bring you to a, maybe a stronger position?
Alisha Wiseman:Oh, absolutely. It really is. I think you come to a point where you have to weigh up the risk of what you're saying yes to, right? And I would've never said it because the yes really was to keep me safe and to not get into that again. And now it's, you have to say yes because now you've tasted and seen you've witnessed a greater story. And because of healing and everything else, and you've seen a larger story rather than just the past story that I had witnessed myself that doesn't come with imperfections or doesn't stop heartbreak, but yeah, just God's so good.
Vic Francis:Aaron, your story will be different than that, I think, because you said at 21 you headed to Hamilton to start planting a church. So how was your experience of being a pastor's kid to being a pastor?
Aaron Hardy:I k new from a very young age that this is what I was gonna do actually. I had a great vision, experience of church life, but maybe even more particularly of home life. My parents lived everything that they spoke about. Our home was full of people, but we never felt we were last place. Dad travelled lots, but all my memories are of him just being super present.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Aaron Hardy:When I was, a young boy, 14 or so, I decided that I was gonna go and see what the world had to offer. Drunk a bunch of alcohol and smoked a bunch of everything that I could. I came back home in the morning and walked through the doors of my home and had this profound experience of the Holy Spirit where I knew that the peace that I felt in my house was because of the presence of Jesus at work in my family's life. So that being more, more pivotal than any Sunday experience in my life. But I just had a great experience of all of it. So it felt plausible and exciting and beautiful to be part of. And then I became a church leader and got super traumatized.
Vic Francis:Oh, I thought it was gonna be the perfect story. So Alisha had this terrible story and yours was perfect. So you got traumatized. I feel like we need to explore that a little.
Aaron Hardy:Yeah. I mean, a big part of it is, you know, we've gotta be careful with words, don't we? Because everyone's got trauma these days. But maybe I should reduce it and just say that I definitely experienced all the significant pain of my life in the context of leading a church, all the major rejection, all the major betrayal and, and just finding myself, you know, in, in the middle of that, 21 is, thank the Lord, we weren't recording podcasts at that point. Yeah. As I would've talked about things like suffering and had no idea what I was talking about. Yeah. But you know, like we were a team. It's not that I was like this sole pastor in the middle of all of this. We definitely were a team and we still are a team. But you know, just journeying through your own brokenness, your own character that hasn't been formed enough. Your own inability to handle criticism or rejection or pain, or to have any kind of rhythms that are worthwhile. Most of my reflections that are about just who I, who I wasn't in my, in my heart versus these people were so terrible to me. Yeah. Although I've definitely had a, a good chunk of some, some bad experiences with some humans who failed to be their best, that's for sure. Absolutely.
Alisha Wiseman:It's a nice way to say that.
Vic Francis:Yeah. You, Aaron, maybe didn't see that. I'm sure your parents experienced that because I think it's just part and parcel of being a pastor. But it wasn't until you really started pastoring that you saw some of that, more difficult side by the sound of it.
Aaron Hardy:I think what I didn't see growing up was the process of how they processed pain. Because, you know, I think what we experienced is just one foot in front of the other, but probably didn't see necessarily the, the weeping at the bedside, the sleepless nights and all of that. Which has pros and cons to it. Pros that we didn't end up carrying weight that wasn't ours to carry for our parents. But cons in that we potentially internalized a way of trucking on into the world without understanding actually, there was huge amounts of process that went into taking one step after the other. It wasn't just a sort of grit strength. You know, this, I'm really hurting and I'm bleeding, but I'm just gonna keep going. But from the outside in, potentially that's something that I, I thought, yeah. Only until I've got older that I've gone. Ah, okay. Yes.
Vic Francis:Well, it's certainly challenging being a pastor, and we all know it and probably our congregations know it as well. We're gonna come back after the break and look at what's happening with our young pastors and maybe what can we do to turn the tide in terms of inviting young pastors into our churches. So we'll be right back. Aaron. Alisha, welcome back to the In Search of Young Pastors episode of the For Pastors podcast. I was told recently by a minister of a mainline denomination that they were producing one new minister for every seven who are retiring. That's a pretty disturbing statistic, and my hunch is that this is a problem common to a lot of church movements. As we begin to explore that, do you agree that there's a problem with finding young pastors as a previous generation moves towards retirement. What has been your experience, Aaron?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, I mean, I'm tentative to give the answer, because I think it'll, there'll be a, a myriad of of reasons. However, one of the, the big things for me is there's been big generational gaps. So right now in New Zealand, it feels like we're experiencing a lot of significant leaders in their sixties and even seventies who are kind of stepping away. And yet it feels like the gap between them and who we might consider primary voices is maybe 15 to 20 years at times. There might be some in their fifties, but, there is like a really large gap. And so part of that to me is, there seems to have been a discipleship gap of sorts where some people that I looked up to who are either no longer in the faith or faded away. And so we end up, not having a direct older brother, older sister to look to and we've got fathers and mothers. However, sometimes we look at the way that they do things and we go, I dunno if I could do it like that. Yeah. And, but when there's like a closer generational link, what ends up happening is you go, I don't think I'll do it exactly like that, but that feels more plausible to me than the way that they've done it a long time ago as well. So I, I do think that that's a big part of it. Obviously no one gets into pastoring for money. And yet finances are a big part of people's reality. And some of it I think is as well is like pathways where, how does passion transform itself into vocation? Do kids that don't grow up in healthy pastoral homes, do they even have it in the front of their mind that's a potential end game?
Vic Francis:Mm-hmm.
Aaron Hardy:And, that's a big task for church leaders as well to go like, Hey, I see something in your life, not for the sake of replacing themselves, but for the sake of going that, that seems to me that this call of God on your life towards this, is this something that you'd be willing to talk further about?
Vic Francis:Alisha, how's it been for you, or how do you see it in terms of young pastors coming through?
Alisha Wiseman:Yeah, there is a lack of people stepping up towards becoming into church leadership. Like if you look at research, it's not just locally, it's globally. I was looking at the Barna research actually, in 2023 it said that like 78% of pastors are concerned about the quality of future Christian leaders and we just have to witness and observe it around us, in our denominations as well as friends that, like you said, Vic, they're just waiting for that vacancy to come about or just wondering when they could leave or who is gonna step up towards becoming part of this ability to lead churches or the desire to even want to step towards it. It's just a big generational gap that we are looking at.
Vic Francis:What's your take on even within your own church, Central Vineyard? You know, it's a, it's a biggish church and it has a lot of young people in it. Why would somebody in their twenties or thirties be discounting themselves from pastoral ministry going forward?
Alisha Wiseman:I think it is so multilayered, like if I can think of it through the eyes of the younger people looking at being in church ministry. I think, like Aaron was saying, the practical nature of getting into ministry and this climate where things are feel unstable, where the finances are down, the cost of living is high. Thinking of getting into pastoring solely for a practical level it doesn't conjure up the ability to become secure financially. And it's unstable in the way of you're relying on the generosity of your congregation as well, and especially in the likes of cities in Auckland it's hard to manage financially. I think the other thing is that like Gen Zs and other young people have witnessed in, in either their parents or other pastors, the main causes of heartbreak, of burnout, loneliness, relationship rifts and complaints, and they're kind like, no, thank you. Yeah. I would like to pass.
Vic Francis:Is it because people like me, haven't presented an adequate understanding of what it means to be called, what it means to pastor, what it means to lead?
Alisha Wiseman:Yeah. I think for sure, like when we think of senior leaders back in the day, it was that huge visionary in charge, confident person, and you can also see the backlash of how these people also uh, and experiences and to be fair, like appropriately have been held accountable. But also they look at themselves and think maybe I'm not as holy, I'm not as confident. I don't have the giftings to be able to do that. So they may discount themselves totally. Whereas like Aaron, you were saying, you actually have to name the things in people and say that is something that's gold, that's God given. Can you step a little bit towards that?
Vic Francis:I love that. Yeah, Aaron, is it just a case of maybe an older generation of pastor like me or you guys who are still youngish naming something over people's lives, recognizing the gifts that God has put on their life and encouraging them forward?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah. The way that I think about every generation is I, I get frustrated with the blame t hat gets placed on each generation before, because, the reality is, is that whoever comes after us, they're gonna go, I wish you'd done this better. But we've got some amazing foundations that each gen kind of present and bring. So I think it's important to acknowledge that. But yeah, there does need to be an intentionality. And the cool thing about this is that this can be across generations really as well, where there are people going, man, there's a calling on your life, young lady, young man, a nd I see it clearly. Would you consider praying about whether this is something inside of you? I think about my own journey of one of the more significant voices in, in my life and actually in New Zealand prophetically, took off his jacket and passed it to me and said. You're not a pastor leader, you're a prophet leader and you need to live this way. And the huge sense of calling that comes with that and relief of, oh, this is actually who I am. And it's been seen by someone else. And I just add, Henri Nouwen, and he talks about the Eucharist process of the priest gets the bread, chooses the bread, um, blesses the bread, breaks it and gives it, and he uses that as an example for life. And I feel like, you know, if that's us as ministers or as leaders looking at other people going, we need to choose, then we need to bless, and then we need to stand with them as they become broken, to remind them that even in their brokenness they can still be a gift into the world. In fact, primarily through their brokenness, they're gonna be a gift to the world. So you know, I think about that. How many of us have spent any time literally putting our hands on people's shoulders and going, there's something inside of you, and I just want you to know that I see it.
Vic Francis:Aaron, in a previous conversation I think you were talking about the sort of gap that you see as people like me step out almost before the next generation is fully ready. Did I understand that right? And why would that be a concern to you?
Aaron Hardy:I think the concern is, is that, say, for me and Lish, our kind of generation, that we might be looked at now as fathers even, and mothers or grandfathers and grandmothers, before potentially we're ready to be that. And I think with each generation and particularly where we are, there's a certain amount of pioneering in creating that's really, really important, that every kind of space or every gen needs to be able to do in order to both stand on the shoulders of the people that have gone before them, but then also to pioneer another way for those that are coming after them. And I guess the concern for me at times is, are we being invited into certain fathering pastoral care of other leaders in other spaces in a significant way when actually the majority of our attention still needs to be in fleshing out and pioneering the kind of work that God's trying to establish in our context, in our space. Now, I don't know if it's a problem, but I just think that there is risk always in terms of feeling pressure to fill gaps, before our time. Now, you know, timing, who knows whether that's an us thing or that's the Lord. But you know, I think there's something to pay attention to anyway.
Vic Francis:I agree that it's an important message to older ministers. So for me, sort of stepping away after three decades or so, what is my role? And do I still have anything to contribute? And it's a really important thing for all of the retiring or beginning to move outta ministry pastors in their fifties, sixties, and seventies. And so I think to hear that from, the coming generation, it can be almost the thought of, well, I just need to get outta the way so you guys can do your thing. So it's an interesting message for us to be toing and froing on.
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, I I think that's crucial as well, that we actually desperately need you not to get out the way, but what we need is a transition. We need your generation not to be helping us interpret the day. We need your generation to be still fathering, mother, you know, grandfathering, grandmothering, that type of thing. Putting their arms around leaders and go, you know what? I went through that too. You're gonna be okay. You know what, this is how you have a strong marriage. You're gonna be okay. You know what, this is what happens when your child loses the plot and you're feeling all sorts of ways about it. It's a transition from helping people lead their congregations to helping people lead their lives. And that's crucial for me of what your generation must continue to do is help leaders lead their lives versus help them lead their congregations.
Vic Francis:Alisha, how do you see the possibility of it being a broader age group In one sense, even with some different roles thrown in.
Alisha Wiseman:Oh, it's needed. It's absolutely needed. I wonder, though, if what we also need is clarity to ensure that this works well. To know your assignment, to know your role in this, and that doesn't have to be put in a box, but it does need to be ensured that you are just as needed, but it doesn't have to look the same as before. So what does support look like? What does fathering look like in this new role, not in the same role and doing the two things. Otherwise you can kind of go over top of each other. I can imagine being able to bring sometimes freshness, to be able to bring a new perspective on this and honouring and respecting each other.
Vic Francis:Yeah. It needs to be permission giving of the emerging generation of leaders, I imagine, because I think Aaron, did you say don't interpret the day? Uh, was that your phrase?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah. I'll give you a real quick example. As I sat with a leader and he was talking about his problem with Black Lives Matter and all sorts of other things, and I just sat there going. There's too much nuance in here for you to just sit here and write all these things off that you potentially don't quite understand. But as soon as he started talking about his faithfulness, his rhythms, his marriage, his, parenting, it was like, oh, that's where your mana your, your authority, is for this moment, and we need you to encourage us in how we interpret the moment. That's how I would see it anyway.
Alisha Wiseman:I wonder as well is one of the issues is the older ones being able to transition towards another role to let other ones come in, is also a practical reason. Right? One of the main things is people are waiting financially to work out when and how to move on. And especially I guess in New Zealand, there aren't as many vocations that you can move towards that can still continue a career with all the amount of knowledge and wisdom that you have carried as a pastor. And I wonder if it's our governance, our creativity, that we need to be thinking about other spaces, not just to help in a support way, but financially assisting and honouring every person to be able to continue onwards to whatever role that is.
Vic Francis:Yeah, it's a fascinating point'cause I definitely know pastors who are staying on because they've got a mortgage to pay, and as we've talked about, you don't do it for the money so you can come to the end of your time and, um, be disadvantaged financially. And so those are considerations. You'd, you'd think we'd be more spiritual than that, but a lot of our life is lived on a very practical basis. Well, this is a fascinating conversation., And so I wanna thank you Aaron, uh, Alisha for helping us look at this important issue. In the next session we're going to explore what are some of the answers, what do we need to do and what would we say to potential young pastors? So we'll be right back. Welcome back to Aaron Hardy and Alisha Wiseman, and our search for young pastors, Aaron. Alisha, let's get really practical. What can we do to encourage and call forth our 20 somethings and our 30 somethings? Shall we start with you, Aaron?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, I mean, I want to be real careful about, I'm not nailing this, actually, this conversation is great for me, to be honest, to be thinking more carefully about it, because I think often we get locked into building our communities and building the things that we're doing. And, uh, the main thing that I think about is it just requires intentionality. And there's definitely people that I've had conversations with about, Hey, there's something in your life. Do we wanna explore this? I think realistically, this is not a altar call moment on the front of the stage. Well, it might be the beginning point, but it does require someone that people respect going, there's something here. Would you be at least willing to pray about whether this is part, could be part of your life? I would just say whatever it is, it's just gonna require greater intentionality about choosing, blessing, and calling people into something.
Vic Francis:Fantastic. Alisha, over to you.
Alisha Wiseman:I think, um, the Vineyard movement has this leadership progress where you go, you identify the person, so you name the things in the person, you recruit them, you train them, you deploy them and you monitor them. You invite them towards something and then you, through relationship guide and work with them. And I think if I look at my story, that's what I did. Dan humbly invited me towards something that I would never have said yes to, but it was an easier yes because it's something that I was just genuinely doing anyway, and it seemed like an easy thing. And then, um, just with relationship, it was just a blessing to be able to do that. It felt like a stretch. Always feels like a stretch. But that's the beauty of being able to depend on God and depend on others.
Vic Francis:Do you think it's a step by step thing or is it a proclaiming over someone that there's a call on their life?
Alisha Wiseman:I don't know. I don't know if there's like a one plus one equals two every single time. I do think with the people that I know anyway, it's usually gentle. It's usually like, Hey, have you noticed this about you? Let's discuss this. Let's put you into a situation if you're into it, if you're welcome to come towards something that's going to bring you life, that's gonna bring you passion and it's gonna be God led as well.
Vic Francis:It feels like that's a challenge regardless of how old you are as a pastor. It's a challenge for me in my sixties. It's a challenge for you guys in your thirties and forties, to be identifying those people along the way.
Alisha Wiseman:Yeah.
Vic Francis:I want to talk a little about whether there are different models that might be more conducive to encouraging young people into ministry and pastoring. Alisha, you have talked about the co-leadership of Central Vineyard. I think team leadership is a phrase that we've been aware of for a fair while. So Alisha, what's your journey a little bit and is there a clue in that for how we might, uh, move on in terms of church leadership?
Alisha Wiseman:Our story is that about three years into our journey as a church, it grew quite significantly. And while that's beautiful, there were also challenges amongst that. And we were pretty much 2ICs, my husband and I in CV and then the board and the Sheeds asked us if we would consider being co-leaders. So essentially that is sharing the responsibility, sharing the vision and the heart of the journey of the church. And what we do is us four completely different personalities and people and giftings helped to carry that. And that was a new thing that we are kind of giving a go really, and seeing if that worked. And it's turned out to be imperfect but it's really beautiful at the same time'cause we share the load, we share the responsibility, and we share the vision and discernment. And what I'm seeing now is that a few more people are considering that as an option instead of the one senior leader carrying so many different things. And often leading to things like burnout and loneliness. It doesn't feel like it's in isolation anymore. And yeah, it seems to be working.
Vic Francis:And maybe that's a more open way of inviting people into leadership roles, that they're not going from being in the congregation to all of a sudden you're gonna be the new leader of this, but they're part of something that's broader.
Alisha Wiseman:Yeah, absolutely.
Vic Francis:How about you, Aaron? What are some of the models that you've seen, maybe that you practise yourself that may, be something that we look at differently in the future?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, like, I think there's nothing new under the sun. So I just start with there. Because there's things like staff that becomes actually a large factor as to how realistic some of our models actually are. We are a team b ut I am fully employed and no one else in our right, in our, um, our kaitiaki or our elders are employed other than my wife who's employed for a day. And so instantly you've got like a dynamic there where you're not able to make the same contributions. We try and make our big decisions, our big plans together. But I'll just give you a little example of what I've seen being pretty cool. Our young adults leaders, t hey are the clear leaders of that space. They are remarkable delegators. And so they're really good at giving heaps of people, heaps of roles and responsibilities. They themselves haven't seen it being like primarily necessary that they're always up the front, always doing all of the things. And so that's been really interesting to watch as well. The reason why I get cautious about models is because they need to fit personalities, gifts, all of those types of things as well. And so I think what CV's got, it works for their personalities, their gift mix and all of those things. What we've got, it's our reality. I don't know if it's perfect, but it's fine at the moment. It's like, it works well. It doesn't feel like it's something we wanna change currently. But I think probably what I would suggest is that part of helping young leaders figure their own way out is actually probably presenting a big whole picture of go, oh, it could be like this, it could be like that. But also for your personality type, you're gonna really need this, or you're gonna be really tentative to step up and lead some things. So potentially it's a really important that there's a level of authority that you are stepping into that is gonna be important to name. Or whatever it might be. So we need to approach all the methods with a sense of, like, okay, Lord, what's best gonna suit our purpose? And also, this might not be the way we do it forever. We might do five years of what we're currently doing and then we might stop and go, is this the best way for us to do this? Is there another way? Does this work? Is it still working? What do we feel like the Lord might be inviting us into according to our mix of people and all the rest?
Vic Francis:This is a podcast for pastors. But there may be some people who listen to this who are younger leaders or aspiring pastors or even people who uh, you know, have a sense of calling but are tentative or r eluctant because of some of the reasons we've talked about on the podcast. So, Aaron, what would you say to a young person who has a sense of call, just wonders whether God might be saying something to them involving leadership, pastoring, whatever it might be called or look like?
Aaron Hardy:Yeah, I would just say that the Lord, looks after us. He doesn't lead us into anything that is going to ruin our lives, although we know that the way of the kingdom is, steps down, not steps up. I would just say that, you know, a teacher that doesn't feel called but sees it as a career is gonna be a rubbish teacher. A doctor that sees it as a career but doesn't feel called to that it's gonna be unkind to their patients. And so, same thing, you know, if you feel called to this, you have to know that this is the place that God is gonna fulfill you the most, who's gonna excite your heart, give you dreams, and then go and visit people that are inspiring. Go and visit CV with Lish and Dan and all of that crew who are doing epic things and there's legends all over the country. Just find people that you can be inspired by if your current context is kind of like, oh, I don't know if I could do it like this. Just go and have a little exploration around the nation and go, but I could see it like that. And so that's what I would say is, if you feel called, it's really a conversation about are you willing to be obedient to that call or not?
Vic Francis:Beautiful. I think that's terrific advice. Alisha, how about you?
Alisha Wiseman:Yeah, I totally agree. I think the word calling can sometimes be quite hard for people to hear, and while I totally agree of that my story has actually been, I haven't actually had that big moment of calling where people think that's what you're looking for, until last year for myself, and it had just solely been, I felt obedient to what God was saying yes to me in that next step. I don't know where that was leading me, but I just felt obedient. And so if you're someone that's like, could I possibly do this? I feel excited about something in church ministry and maybe it's not leadership at the moment, or maybe it is, my invitation to you is don't let your brokenness, your weakness, your confusion, your inadequacies be the barrier. Those are the people that God uses the most. Get connected in with someone that you can trust, that you can work through your shadow side, that you can be fully honest with, pray and dream about it. Let God into this thing because it's the biggest adventure. It has got some things, yes, but it is so beautiful at the same time to be a part of.
Aaron Hardy:Beautiful Lish.
Vic Francis:Yeah, it is beautiful. I was 31 years old when I had a sense of God calling me to pastoring. I gave God three to five years. I, I thought that was pretty generous. That's a long time when you're 31. So here I am 32 years later, so I've done 10 times what I promised God. And I would say as well, all of the things we've talked about, and it's been very honest today, about some of the drawbacks and some of the things that are hard, and there is no doubt that it's hard, but now being able to look back and reflect on that, I wouldn't have wanted to do anything else. It's the call of God was real on my life and why wouldn't I have done what I've done? And so it's been a great pleasure, along with all of the difficulties along the way. So I'd back what you're saying. I think you guys are saying it much better than I would've all that time ago. Probably saying much better than I would today. So bless you on that. On our podcast, I'm asking each guest about hope. So Alisha, what gives you hope?
Alisha Wiseman:My hope is that while we can look around and look at the lack of people coming into ministry, my hope isn't in the denial of the circumstances, I guess looking around me. My hope is that God writes a bigger story and it's more creative. And it's more redemptive than we can think of. Like looking back at history, it's often the times where it seems the most dead that God uses the biggest renewal and revival and creativeness that he could possibly do. Like, it's not in the way that God isn't moving. It's kind of the challenge is are we gonna be a part of it and grow in it and think differently and let God in and my hope is that it can look different than it has been. Leadership in church can be fulfilling and you can come in all your vulnerableness and be a great leader, inspiring others and God led.
Vic Francis:Thank you, Alisha. Aaron, what gives you hope?
Aaron Hardy:When the COVID period of time happened, the great veil was lifted, where the church revealed how undiscipled and how much she lacked formation, and all sorts of things like that. And the process since then has been people diving into their shadows, into character formation, into the disciplines, all of these things. And actually one of my great hopes is that where we will end up, it's gonna take time for another generation of leaders to come through, but I think what we're gonna receive on the other end is a bunch of leaders who have done the work, who've done counselling, who have faced themselves, who are looking at themselves and going, man, I can be used by God, but actually also I'm a ticking time bomb if I don't become restored from these things, or at least if I'm not aware of them. And so, my hope is that God is healing us from the inside and out. So it might not look like quantity, but I believe there's a quality work that's happening at the moment, which is priceless.
Vic Francis:Fantastic. I'm also asking our guests to pray for our pastors. I figure pastors pray for a lot of their congregations and maybe sometimes don't receive the ministry back. So, Alisha, would you be happy to pray for our pastors in Aotearoa and maybe around the world who might listen and, um, then I'll ask you Aaron to follow that up.
Alisha Wiseman:Mm-hmm. Love to. Awesome. Father God, we are aware that you know the landscape of our churches here in Aotearoa. You know the challenges that we face, the shortage of leaders, the weariness that is in us, but also the deep desire for renewal. And we ask Holy Spirit, that you fill us, Lord, renew our vision, revive us, revive our passion. And remind us that it is not by our own strength and our own work. It's dependent on your Spirit. So awesome God, fill us with your presence. Give us eyes to see again, help us to remember that it is your work and that you continually build your church. Give us eyes to see the next generation. Open our hands up if we need to, to be able to let go of the control and be able to see what you are doing in your plans and bring creativity, bring freshness, bring your awesome plans that we may not see. You are faithful, uh, you'll never let us go. So bless us and give us boldness. In your awesome name we pray.
Aaron Hardy:Amen. Amen. E to matou Matua, we wanna thank you that you don't require church leaders to be superstars, t o be moral elites, to be perfect. We are ordinary people w ho are ordinarily broken, who are ordinarily dependent on community, on Christ, on your presence to sustain us. We're dependent, Lord Jesus, on being able to be vulnerable, to be honest, we're dependent on confession, we're dependent on the Eucharist, the need to be reminded that each death that we face will ultimately become life in you. Lord, we want to be reminded again and again and again that we are ordinary, and that is a profound gift, Lord Jesus, that we are ordinary not because we, uh, have nothing unique or special about us, but just because we are your children, we have that ordinary place in your family, and we wanna pray Holy Spirit, that today you would encourage and give grace to those who are struggling with being supermen or superwomen, who are wearing too many hats, filling too many spaces, who are living beyond themselves. We just ask for grace. But I been thinking so much about that scripture in 1 Peter 5 that says after you've suffered the God of grace will encourage you, will strengthen you and will reestablish you. And, uh, I just wanna pray, Lord Jesus, for all those who have suffered or are suffering, Lord they would feel profoundly seen, strengthened, encouraged and established by you today in Jesus' name. Amen.
Vic Francis:Thank you. Thank you both. I receive it and on behalf of others who we trust would be strengthened. And so thank you Aaron and Alisha, thank you for your work in Hamilton and Auckland, for your love for your church community and the community that surrounds you, for being young leaders who are saying yes and for being a voice to the church of the present and to the church of the future. We champion you too and your holy callings in this uncertain world. God bless you.
Alisha Wiseman:Thank you so much, Vic.
Aaron Hardy:Kia ora, thanks Vic.
Vic Francis:Thank you for listening to the first episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'm back next Tuesday with another episode entitled When Tragedy Strikes, talking about pastoring through a crisis. I do hope you'll join me. God bless.