Pastoring When Tragedy Strikes

In this second episode of a seven-part pilot, the new For Pastors podcast considers what happens when tragedy strikes, either personally or in our congregations, and we as pastors have to process deeply while still fronting up the next Sunday and the Sunday after that. And the Sunday after that.

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PS: A big thanks to Joel Francis, for his genius in guiding his father towards getting this podcast out. Couldn't have done it without you!

Transcript

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Vic Francis 0:01

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. In this episode, we meet two pastors who have experienced huge challenges death, suicide, mental health struggles and yet found a way of continuing in ministry. They share their stories and the lessons learned as we explore how to pastor when tragedy strikes. Kia ora, and welcome to the For Pastors podcast. This week, we're considering what happens when tragedy strikes, either personally or in our congregations, and we as pastors have to process deeply while still fronting up the next Sunday and the Sunday after that, and the Sunday after that. Today I'm joined by Sarah Park and Murray Smith, two pastors who have faced great hardship and anguish within their ministries and have fought hard, firstly to stay afloat and then come up with some keys to continuing in ministry even when the wheels fall off. Sarah and Murray, welcome to this For Pastors podcast.

Sarah Park 1:43

Kia ora, lovely to be here.

Murray Smith 1:45

Thank you, kia ora. Good to be here.

Vic Francis 1:47

It is lovely to have you here too. Sarah, I wonder if we could start with asking you just who are you and, uh, where are you from?

Sarah Park 1:55

I'm Sarah Park. I'm an Anglican priest, born and bred in Auckland, and currently the vicar of Clevedon Parish, which is a rural though very quickly developing parish on the edge of Auckland. Traditional worship, small congregation, mainly older people and loads of heritage buildings.

Vic Francis 2:12

Beautiful. Thank you for that. And Murray, uh, what about you? Where are you? And, uh, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Murray Smith 2:18

Well, I'm a refugee from Auckland l iving in Cambridge now, where we've resided for the last, uh, 20, coming up 24 years. For just over 20 of those years, I have led Bridges Church, um, which was back in the day an Assembly of God church and that affiliation was relinquished j ust before I began my tenure with the church. Prior to coming to Cambridge, I had led a church for 13 years. So pastoring's been a big part of my life. And, and our family's life.

Vic Francis 2:55

Yes, indeed. Well, it's lovely to meet you both and, um, thank you for coming on and on a topic really, which is, um, quite sensitive. And we're gonna start with you, Sarah. Your story is recent, goes back I think, or starts in 2023. And it began with a series of funerals in your church, including that of your father. I wonder if you would take us back there and share a little bit about what happened.

Sarah Park 3:21

Sure. So, um, over about a nine month period, um, there were a number of deaths that I encountered, and the first one was my dad, um, at 90 and grumpy about it. Death was a kindness to him. Yes. And I shed very few tears at the time. Worth noting that I'd been on anxiety medication for some years, and I was aware that the meds were holding me steady. And I was also aware that grief would come in its own time and in its own way as grief does.

Vic Francis 3:50

Mm.

Sarah Park 3:51

But in the five months that followed, five parishioners from our very small community died. Wow. These were all people that I knew. Some of them I knew very well, and I presided at each of their funerals. In addition to those five, there were about three or four other funerals of people who I didn't know, but were nevertheless part of my work. I found it easier to shed tears for my parishioners than I did for my dad. Right? But even still, those tears were few. So we fast forward into the following year, 2024. I was due three months sabbatical leave, and I was completely overcooked by the time, uh, that rolled around. I decided that if there was any good time to come off medication, a five week trip to UK and Europe was that time. And so I made that decision and even before I had actually come off the meds, almost as soon as I got on the plane, the weeping began. Yeah. Every time I saw something beautiful, I would find tears rolling down my face. And, you know, you can't go to Europe without stumbling over something beautiful every five minutes. Yes. Um, I knew instinctively that this was delayed grief for my dad, and it was also cumulative grief for the parishioners who died.

Vic Francis 5:10

Mm.

Sarah Park 5:11

So we had a lovely, five week trip and I returned home. It was winter time, and then my best friend's dad died and we had to put our beloved pet cat to sleep.

Vic Francis 5:22

Oh, wow.

Sarah Park 5:23

And I felt like the floodgates had just opened. Uh and I didn't know how to switch off the tap, which I found a little concerning.

Vic Francis 5:31

Yes.

Sarah Park 5:32

So two days before my sabbatical concluded, I received a phone call to say that a parishioner who I'll call Rosemary, had died by suicide. Her suicide note read. I want Sarah to take my funeral. She returns to work on Monday.

Vic Francis 5:49

My goodness.

Sarah Park 5:50

So it was a hell of a reentry.

Vic Francis 5:52

A hell of a reentry. So you've had all of this lead up to your sabbatical. The sabbatical has been emotional, but presumably helpful. Mm-hmm. And you come back to, on your first day or your first week, you're going to have to bury, and do the funeral of one of your parishioners? Her suicide?

Sarah Park 6:12

Yeah. Uh, traumatic death. And also someone I'd known before I was in the parish. So someone I had known for about 20 years. Literally the first task I had to do when returning to my desk was inform the parish of her death. Wow. And I went to meet with her family and at my initiative, I said, I think it's really important that we bless the house in which Rosemary died. Which is very much my tradition and not necessarily the family's. Yep. When it came to it, though, I found myself really distressed, like ugly, crying, distressed.

Vic Francis 6:44

Yeah.

Sarah Park 6:45

I wasn't centred, I didn't have any sense of God's presence or protection. I was very clear in my head what the task was. Yeah. I knew that I had to create safe space for the family and to, in both word and action, be a symbol of hope amid despair. But I also knew that I didn't have what it took. Yes. To be able to do that. So, that morning I sent out an SOS email to friends and colleagues in ministry, my supervisor, to members of my extended family who knew Rosemary as well, to say that I needed their prayers. And I also spoke with the funeral director who was caring for Rosemary, who I'd worked alongside for 20 odd years to ask if she would stand with me, both literally and figuratively. Wow. Uh, as we came to bless the space and if she would say the words, if I found that I couldn't.

Vic Francis 7:39

Yeah.

Sarah Park 7:40

By the time, uh, we got to the actual blessing of the house and we got to the room where Rosemary had died, I felt an upwelling of power. Um, power is the only word I can use to describe it. It was, very peculiar to me. My voice grew confident. And strong. And I was aware that it was the prayers that I had sought from others that were enveloping. Wow.

Vic Francis 8:06

Yeah.

Sarah Park 8:07

It was a very tangible experience. In Anglican speak, the blessing of a space includes water that has been blessed and traditionally a sprig of rosemary or something that you flick the water around and I flicked that water like a light sabre as we got to that space. It was a very different feeling within me and beyond me.

Vic Francis 8:30

Wow.

Sarah Park 8:31

Rosemary's private funeral was a week later and we had a public memorial a week or so after that. And the pastoral load in that time was, as you might imagine, quite significant. Yes. Both within our community of faith and beyond it, uh, strangers ringing me to process, yes, Rosemary's death. And then of course I was back into the rhythm of Sunday worship.

Vic Francis 8:54

Sunday after Sunday.

Sarah Park 8:55

After Sunday. And you know, one of the great gifts of Anglicanism is the lectionary. So I don't have to choose what I'm, you know what you're gonna do confronted by, yeah, and also the Prayer Book. So we have resources to start, but nevertheless, I was fronting up.

Vic Francis 9:10

Mm-hmm.

Sarah Park 9:11

And I thought I was managing quite well, thanks very much. I was, was doing many of the things I knew I needed to do. I was journalling, I was making sure I was getting in my exercise, et cetera. I was talking to friends and colleagues, but then I realized that several parishioners had said to me in one-to-one context that I seemed very sad. And I realized that in conversations where the direction of the energy was meant to be in service of them. Yes. They were seeking to support me. And I needed to do something, uh, to attend to my grief.

Vic Francis 9:49

So we may leave it there because later we'll come back to some of the things that have worked with you to attend to your grief. But thank you for that story and, and very conscious that this is, um, very tender. Murray, if we were to go over to you, Sarah's story is recent and maybe still playing out a little. Yours is longer ago, but involved the illness of your wife while you were pastoring. Could you tell us your story?

Murray Smith 10:19

Sure. Vic, I was, married to Mair, my wife, in 1976 and we embarked on what was a beautiful marriage, a joyful marriage. But within six months, we were actually at the time, uh, the church we were part of had given us a trip. And Mair had severe abdominal pains and the upshot of that was she ended up in Brisbane Hospital and we were told that her bowel had perforated and we couldn't fly. We were stuck in Brisbane. We had no insurance. And so that was the beginning of, really right at the outset of our marriage of a, almost like a third party in the marriage with illness. That condition, uh, once, once we eventually got home continued, we were often in hospital contexts where Mair was going through treatments. And it also resulted in a long bout of infertility because we were told that you don't ever consider having children if it's even possible, which we don't think will be biologically possible. And so the heartache that was around that. And, but there were really good times and, you know, for someone like ourselves who we, we believed in a life of breakthrough. We believed in miracles. We had a theology which, not only accommodated, but longed for the supernatural, for, for healing. And we saw moments where God supernaturally broke in and healed and, and remarkable interventions of God. And yet at other times, same faith, same ardent prayers, but just the lack of, of seemingly a breakthrough intervention from the Lord. And, um, the confusion of that and the trying to pastor through that, trying to encourage others when inside you're, you're weeping and you're broken, and you're trying to be strong for others. And so we, we actually, uh, together, we planted a church, Mair and I, with some friends in Central Auckland in 1985. And, um the church grew and it became a very fruitful source of ministry to many, many different people. And there's lots of remaining fruit from that season. I led that church for, for 13 years. Amazing times, good times, but I often think of, you know, Psalm 66 where it talks about how the Lord allows us to go through fire and through flood, and sometimes it'd be nice to go around those things. Yeah. But for us, we certainly went through some very, very dark times, very hard times. The difficulty with Mair's physical illness, it brought a great deal of depression and discouragement for her. She ended up with uh, surgical interventions, which were, were really quite demeaning. The nature of her condition was, it was a bowel condition and, there was a lot of embarrassment and at times, just the indignity of, of all of that. Yes. The upshot of it was that, uh, it, it came to a point in 1998 where I, I'd had enough. I, I just wanted to resign and, and focus on life. So, um, we were in agreement with it. I resigned and t hroughout 1999, Mair's h ealth was not steady at all. And, at the end of 1999, she passed away and I was left with, um, we did have children, which was a wonderful blessing and just an incredible miracle really. We were told that it could never happen because, calling a spade a spade, her illness had created scar tissue, which blocked her fallopian tubes and they said it would never happen. But it did happen. And so that was such a highlight for us.

Vic Francis 14:20

So you've, you come to that and Mair passes away and you're not pastoring, and some of the rest of your story we'll get to.

Murray Smith 14:28

Sure.

Vic Francis 14:29

'Cause you did go back to pastoring.

Murray Smith 14:31

That's right.

Vic Francis 14:32

But thank you Murray for sharing your story and we feel the depth of it and the weight of it, even today, 25 plus years later. Before we go to the break, you both faced some very dark moments, but you've both continued or rediscovered yourselves in ministry. And so maybe Sarah, we'll start with you what, what is one thing that has helped you through your darkest moments?

Sarah Park 14:57

Firstly, acknowledging that I've come up against the limit of myself, and therefore looking for what I need to, um, address that amongst wisdom, friends, prayer.

Vic Francis 15:09

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And Murray, maybe one thing from you.

Murray Smith 15:15

I think the one thing has just been the sense of being, through fire and through flood, being held by grace, by the unfailing goodness of God. That's just sustained me. And, there were times confused with God, and bewildered, but an unshakeable sense of that he was still in control of my life. Mm. That continues to carry me

Vic Francis 15:41

Continues to carry me. And, and that's important too, I'm sure. Well, I think that's a good point for us to take a wee break. When we return, we'll look deeper at how to pastor when tragedy strikes. We'll be right back. Welcome back to the When Tragedy Strikes episode of the Four Pastors podcast. We've heard Murray and Sarah's stories and they're quite harrowing in parts, and I wanna thank you both for your honesty and vulnerability. I've been pastoring for over 30 years, and my equivalent story would be different to yours, but nevertheless, very powerful in my life. I've had a leader who was having multiple affairs, a leader convicted of sexual abuse, another leader misappropriating church funds. All of those happened within a few years and, and they dominate my memory of those years. And so while our stories differ, I tend to believe that if we're going to do this ministry thing over a medium or long term, every one of us is going to have to face weeks, months and yes, maybe even years, with huge challenges of one sort or another. I mean, life throws up its tragedies, doesn't it? And seemingly no less for us as pastors and vicars and leaders of churches. So I wanna start this segment with preparation. How can we prepare so that we are better able to withstand these hard times when they come? And I might start with you, Sarah, if that's okay.

Sarah Park 18:11

Sure. Well, I think one of the real gifts of ministry is some of the structures that are put around us to assist us to be healthy in ministry. Obviously, there are the spiritual disciplines, and certainly in my experience, I found a sense of paucity of that, that I had let some of those practices, prayer practices slip. Also, in my setting, we are required to have supervision on a monthly basis, and so being in the space where you have to be talking about the stuff of ministry with someone who's appropriately qualified to ask you the hard questions has been really important to me. Likewise, trying to avoid the isolation that often comes from ministry in our context. You know, very few Anglican parishes have multiple teams of clergy. Yes. And so making sure that I was building up a sense of people that I trust, to have honest and collegial, responsive, uh, relationships with, as well as friends who have nothing to do with the church. That's been really important to me.

Vic Francis 19:17

I think that is so important. I've always had this idea that if we do the prep in the good times, which, which human nature, it's kind of hard in a way. But we're so much better equipped when we hit the inevitable hard times. It's not a fatalism or a lack of faith, it's just a reality of life that we do face them at some stage during our pastoral ministry and life. Murray, how about you? What are, what are your thoughts on helping us in the good times I suppose prepare for those times that will not be so easy?

Murray Smith 19:51

Well, to be candid, I'm not really sure you, you can prepare for things which come along as unwanted and unexpected interventions. Even some of the things you described yourself. But I think the whole of life really is a preparation, endeavouring to walk before the Lord. All our springs are found in him. Meaningful relationship with others, of course. I have been very purposeful, I have four long-term friendships, which I've had for many, many years, who have always been there when there's been those dark times, and you know, pastoring is, um, it's, it's both the agony and the ecstasy. And I think sometimes, um, people forget, and the shepherds forget themselves, that they are sheep too. And it's really important, I think, just to remain grounded. Probably the best response I can give to your question there would be thinking of how Daniel's three friends, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, responded when they're facing, not they, they won't comply with the king's edict to bow to his big statue and they're facing being thrown into the furnace. And, and they're, they've purposed in their heart that they're gonna run to God. They're not gonna run from God. Yes. And so I think when things break out and often come u nexpected that it, it comes as a bombshell. The best thing you can do is purpose. Lord, you've got me through stuff in the past, you'll get me through this too. You are bigger than my circumstance. And, and it's not just spiritual gobbledy gook, but it's staying grounded in a loving God whose faithfulness e ndures forever. Like those three young friends of Daniel's, they said, our God is well able to deliver us in this situation, but even if he didn't there's nowhere else we can go. We're still trusting him. He'll get us, we we'll be okay. We, he'll get us through it.

Vic Francis 21:59

Yeah, there's a, there's a certain aspect of where else should we go? You have the words that's eternal life. Exactly. It's like, here we are in doing it. Yeah.

Murray Smith 22:06

I think of that scripture very often. You know, where, where else would we run to?

Vic Francis 22:10

Yes. Mm-hmm. Murray, you've started to answer my next question. Uh, so, So tragedy strikes and it is unexpected, and I, you are so right, you know, how could you prepare for the things that I'm saying or for a medical diagnosis or a suicide or something. But it does strike and along it comes, how do we face it and how do we see it through to the end remembering, of course, that we've gotta get up and preach next Sunday.

Murray Smith 22:35

Well, there are times when it's really, really hard grind. You, you, you feel an empty well. And when you're not at the top of your game, you're not hearing so well from the Lord, and, and, uh, you, you got a message to bring of, of hope. I think one of the things that I've been really blessed with is having congregations who have walked with me through things. And, rather than being some kind of a champion, taking everyone over the top, I've been amongst them as one who hurts and, and at times have needed their support. So, yeah, I think that, that, that's really important is just being very candid and real, being authentic before people. I've valued in both the congregations, Central Christian Family Church in Auckland where I was for, uh, 13 years and Bridges Church for, uh, 20 years here in Cambridge. I've been blessed to have congregations that have walked with me through difficult things and, and, um, there, there are treasures in darkness, though. The Bible refers to that in the midst of it all, t he Lord declares himself that the darkness and the light are all the same to him anyway. It's not that he trivializes our, our darkness, but there is a sense of being, carried and supported by those around us. That's, that's been very, very important.

Vic Francis 24:05

Murray, I take it from what you're saying, you've been pretty open with your congregations as you've gone through difficult things. Do you think that's important?

Murray Smith 24:15

I've endeavoured to be, I think it is important j ust to be real and not set yourself above the people, because as I mentioned, the shepherd's a sheep too.

Vic Francis 24:26

Yeah. I, I just think that's such an important point 'cause there may be part of us that thinks somehow we've gotta hide our own crisis or fears or worries.

Murray Smith 24:36

Well, we're fallible too.

Vic Francis 24:37

We're fallible too. Yeah. Great answer, I think. Sarah, get back to you how do we cope when this thing comes upon us?

Sarah Park 24:45

Oh, well, I'm just, um, distracted by those beautiful metaphors of yours, Murray, that you and the shepherd as a sheep too. So good. Um, The sense of understanding myself as a whole within the whole, so for me, I guess breathing is the first thing, literally and figuratively. To actually pause, and to understand myself as a person who is spiritual, physical, relational, and, and do my work in each of those areas, um, absolutely the integrity of being honest about our own vulnerability and our own pain. Mm-hmm. But doing the depth of that work in a different space for me has been important. So, i'm very open about the fact that supervision is a requirement that I joyfully, uh, take up regularly. And I frequently say to the parishioners that supervision is what keeps me from taking out my stuff on the people with whom, for whom I have pastoral responsibility because I attend to it in that space. For me also, uh, I needed to exercise. I needed to really sweat, which doesn't come naturally to me. I am inherently lazy. So getting to the gym and working really hard was an important way of g iving voice, if you like, to the nuance of my own emotional response. And I realized too that I needed to go back on meds, right? Um, so I understood that actually if I was to, uh, be able to continue to, to minister in a way that was healthy for me and others, that that was something I needed to do.

Vic Francis 26:30

Yeah. Tell me about that, Sarah. Because, I think probably for Murray and me, perhaps in a more charismatic stream of, of Christianity and, and because we're a bit older and all of that, going back a bit, it's almost like, isn't prayer enough. I love the fact that you're honest about that.

Sarah Park 26:46

I, I have to be honest about it. You know, my family, depression and anxiety have been a feature of our lives. And for me, it has been over my ministry just watching and waiting to see how, how I was tracking. And I remember, when I did decide to go back on meds saying to, uh, a friend, you know, this might be me, for the rest of all eternity, and she said. So what? Take the damn pills. Right. And I feel very grateful to live in a time where we are beginning to shift our understanding of our mental and emotional wellbeing to be in line with the way that we understand our physical wellbeing. And as somebody said to me, look, if you were diabetic, you'd take insulin.

Vic Francis 27:26

Yeah, exactly yeah. Thank you for sharing it with us. Murray, any thoughts?

Murray Smith 27:31

I was just thinking while you're talking, Sarah, how it's imperative, I think, to survive well in ministry, in leadership, to find things that actually replenish you because the depletion is enormous and sometimes you don't realize it. And, and many, many contemporaries that I know haven't recognized that they're heading for a train wreck w ith that running on empty, they continue running on empty. And without making serious attempts to find compensation for the depletion you're experiencing, then, then your output is actually gonna be your downfall.

Vic Francis 28:11

Mm-hmm. Sarah.

Sarah Park 28:13

Absolutely. I agree. And that's why the image of the empty well was so important for me and that there are different things that will fill our wells back up. And some of them might be nature and some of them might, might be medicinal, and some of them might be relational and prayerful, but we need to find them.

Vic Francis 28:30

Beautiful. Uh, final question before we go to a break, and maybe we, we'll start with you again, Sarah, but where have you found God in some of these darkest times?

Sarah Park 28:41

One of the things that I've often thought about is in the Anglican version of the Lord's Prayer, which we say, uh, in every worship service, the phrasing is save us from the time of trial. And I find that theologically untenable, right? When I look at the work and life of Jesus and I always change a word, which, you know, I'm sure would get me in trouble with some Council of Nicea or someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I always say. Save us in the time of trial. Right. And thinking back to your piece Murray, about Daniel's friends, it is about being saved in trial, not from trial.

Murray Smith 29:19

That's right.

Sarah Park 29:19

Faith for me is not, an insurance policy against life. Mm-hmm. It is the thing that accompanies me through life, even when life is really, really tough. I have found God in the presence and prayerful support of others, and particularly in others for whom I have no pastoral responsibility. With whom I am able to be really grittily honest. Mm-hmm. As well as, um, integrated.

Vic Francis 29:48

And I love that story, Sarah, of being in the house, with the suicide and having that sense of God being there, but knowing it was 'cause you'd called in all of the prayer and support. Murray, how about you? How have you found God and where in, in the darkest times?

Murray Smith 30:06

I think primarily it's through key passages of scripture, I have really identified with King David, how there's this ebb and flow in his life where at one point he's saying that his feet were slipping and what is the point? And he's lost his way. Where are you, God, you seem remote, ambivalent and all of that. I, I guess many of us can really relate to that at times because, it's not a life of unsullied bliss. And, and, triumphalism would have us believe, you know, that, if you're not living in that way, that you're missing out an abundant life. But I, I do believe that abundant life is, that's what I referred to before it, it's through fire 'cause Psalm 66, it says that the Lord bought us, you, you laid affliction on us. You allowed us to come into the net and you, you caused people to ride over our heads. The, the pain of relationships which, um, go, go badly, or, or turn out with disappointment. We went through fire and through flood, but then it ends up in that particular passage. But you bought us into a rich place, a wide open place, and it's that sense of hope. I mean, hopelessness, I think is one of the terrible dilemmas of our culture, our generation, and yet we are a people of hope because we have a God who is faithful and a God who we can run to. And there's, there's never a situation that, that he's not adequate for, that he will bring us through those things.

Vic Francis 31:48

I think that's, a wonderful way for us to close this wee segment. Thank you Murray and Sarah for helping us look at this important issue and the way that you've worked through it. In the next session, we're gonna talk about grief a little more, and maybe about wanting to quit. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Sarah Park and Murray Smith and our conversation about how we do ministry under the cloud of tragedy. I'd like to get a little personal and ask, how have you grieved in the context of the very difficult things that have happened for you personally and yet in the context of still being faithful in ministry? So, Sarah, grief, how has that worked out for you?

Sarah Park 33:01

Well, I've been very intentional about seeking grief out actually. So when my tears were not coming, I was looking for them for a start, 'cause I knew that they were there and I needed to find them. I discovered them interestingly enough at Middlemore Hospital when I went to visit someone else, I thought, oh, that's where my tears were. They were in the room where my dad had been. Seeking out grief in times when I have the capacity to be able to attend to it well a nd so being able to, um, journal has been a really important thing for me to write and write and write because that's both a prayerful exercise, but also an exercise of vulnerability and honesty, about how it really is 'cause nobody else sees this, but God and me. Obviously, the relational side for me has been really important too. Connecting with friends with whom I feel I can be absolutely brutally honest. Yes. Say all the stuff, that's been very important so that it is articulated beyond just in my head and in my being, so that when I come to be in front of other people, I have capacity and space to encounter what they need from me as well.

Vic Francis 34:20

Gosh. Yeah, some great both broad ideas and very practical tips there, Sarah, thank you so much. How about for you Murray, how have you been able to grieve?

Murray Smith 34:32

Grief actually in my experience, has come from many different corners, really. Um. It's resulted in many different outcomes with, with at times feeling misunderstood, loss of expectation, disappointment that comes, you know, looked for much and, and seen little, inexplicable things that occur and, and, um isolation. And so, I have written copiously at times and just tried to get out through writing. I, I like writing, but, but also with key people, being able to be really honest, with the key people that have been significant in my life, some of them over decades. And to be able to, you know, there's, there's nothing off the table. Um, people, some of those have walked, um, longer in, in ministry than I have. To have the wisdom of their experience has been invaluable and you begin to realize that while it's your experience, you don't have the corner on pain. That pain is a reality of ministry or of Christian living. We carry the cross to wear the crown. And so, I think understanding that and, and accepting it, and it's mitigated I think by the sense that, the Lord's promises somehow, even though you see don't see good in things, that there's this unshakeable, Lord, your promise is that you'll turn this for good, even this Lord, you somehow you can bring good out of it and that the sense of expectation when you're in despair and you can't see it, the possibility of happening. But somehow, Lord, you're gonna turn this for good, that you're going to outwork this and bring me through this. And, um, even in, in the most devastating of situations, I've always sensed that flicker of hope, which I can only feel is the breath of God sustaining and keeping us alive in those moments.

Vic Francis 36:36

Thank you, Murray. Yeah, I think that's so helpful. I've been thinking about the role of these tragedies that happen actually in helping us in ministry in some way. I remember John Wimber of the Vineyard movement used to say, never trust someone who doesn't walk with a limp. And I think he meant by that, it's easy to be a little glib in our immaturity sort of early in ministry. But also the sense that these things mark us and, uh, actually become our strengths. Mm-hmm. Um, turning, turning it around a little, my wife and I quite often used to look at each other and say, where do we go to quit? Sarah, have you ever, ever just wanted to quit? You know, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna take off the robes and I'm not coming back.

Sarah Park 37:19

Yeah, absolutely. Mm-hmm. But interestingly, my desire to quit has not been in relation to tragedy, right? And it hasn't been in relation to my own or others' grief. Mm-hmm. My desire to quit has tended to centre on conflict or feeling overwhelmed by stuff, stuff that doesn't feel vocational. That's when I wanted to quit. In the context of tragedy or trauma, I feel that is vocational for me and that's not a space that, that I wanna quit from.

Vic Francis 37:51

Yeah, absolutely. Murray, for you, I'm interested in a slightly different aspect because you'd finished pastoring, but you came back and you pastored for at least another couple of decades in Cambridge. It was like there was something in you, wasn't there, to, to continue pastoral ministry, I think.

Murray Smith 38:11

I never, ever intended actually I was, I was resolved, I will never pastor again. And some of that would've been through pain and hurt that I carried. But you know, when, when I came into Cambridge, there's a scripture that talks about how the Lord says the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance or they're irrevocable when something's grabbed your heart. And that was my experience, over a period of time. It was four years before I, began pastoring again, um, through a number of circumstances, ended up pastoring the church, which we were attending. Contrary to what my expectation was or what I'd thought might happen, I found the Lord completely recalibrated my heart. Yeah. And even at times in worship services, I could feel at times the Lord just washing over and healing me of grief and again, bringing that deep sense of reassurance. I haven't finished with you yet. I haven't finished yet. T hat sense of God's love, always leading us on. I mean, the fact is that, we're always a work in progress, aren't we? Yes. Jesus spent 30 years preparing for three years of ministry and I think we sometimes feel we can prepare for 30 years of ministry with three years of preparation. But I'm still acutely aware that I'm a work in progress and that he's still working in me like Jeremiah, the picture of the potter, h e's still moulding, he's still shaping us and it's a wonderful truth.

Vic Francis 39:44

I love that aspect of your story, Murray, and that it's long enough ago for us to be able to hear some of the longer term, rolling out of God's work in your life, and those fruitful years that you've had in Cambridge. I'm wondering, is there anything you'd do differently a s you look back on tragic times, those difficult times? Sarah?

Sarah Park 40:06

I think for me, uh, it was a recognition that my spiritual disciplines, my prayer life had a shallowness about it, right? That had just happened in a small and incremental way. An erosion, an erosion rather than a, a sudden thing, and that I needed to attend to that.

Vic Francis 40:26

Great. How about you Murray? Anything you'd do differently?

Murray Smith 40:29

I think I'd just go slower. Yeah. I like being busy. Some people say I'm a little bit driven and there's probably truth in that. So, I think with maturity, you come to a place where you can let go and let God more. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So rest, you know, uh, functioning and living out of a place of, of rest, I would seek to do that a whole lot more.

Vic Francis 40:53

I love those, uh, you know, go deeper and go slower. Great advice, for all of us as pastors. Mm-hmm. You know, on this podcast, I'm asking a common-to-all question, and I'd love to take you into that. And that's about hope. What gives you hope? So, Sarah, what gives you hope?

Sarah Park 41:10

What gives me hope is that beauty is also true. I think of myself as a person who believes that even in the face of all evidence to the contrary, the last word has not yet been spoken. Yeah. And so I need to put myself in the way of beauty so that I can be surprised by it and it can give me hope. And hope sometimes has arms and legs. It appears in the form of people who are part of our support network. It appears in the form of tiny moments of delight when you see people connect and go deeper and be formed. It appears in poetry. I fall in love with new poets all the time. And I guess in all of that, there is the belief that God not only calls us, but actually resources us.

Vic Francis 41:54

Fantastic. Thank you. Murray, what gives you hope?

Murray Smith 41:57

Yeah, I think what you just said at the end there, Sarah, is in a nutshell, what I also believe, that my hope is in, in this that faithful is he who calls you, who will also do it, that God really is the author, that this whole thing was his idea anyway and that faithful is he who called you, who also will do it. He'll, perfect that, which concerns me. I rest in that, that, he's more concerned with getting me there than I am g etting there myself. And, and it's not me tenaciously holding onto him, but oh man, there's such a rest in that, uh, of just being, being held by God. And, and that's my fallback continually. That that is my hope, that God, this is, you are the centre of all of this, and you will perfect that which concerns my life, my family's life, ministry. It's all about you, and you're at the centre of it.

Vic Francis 42:53

Thank you both, for those aspects of hope. I'm also asking, I guess, on the podcast to pray for our pastors. My theory is we pray for and give out quite a lot to other people and, for us to be prayed for by our peers, would be an important thing. And so, Murray, I wonder if you could pray for our pastors in New Zealand and maybe Sarah you could pick up when Murray finishes.

Murray Smith 43:16

Yeah. That'd be a privilege to do that. Yeah, Father, I just pray for every, leader, every pastor, every vicar, everyone aspiring to ministry who might be listening to these words that, Lord, you would keep them and protect them, that you would hold them, Father, that you would Lord resource them to be everything that you've called them to be, that you'd, you'd hedge them about, Lord. You would enable them and empower them, Lord, that your grace would be upon them, Lord, that your empowering presence would equip them, sustain them. I pray for those who might be listening to this, who are going through deep waters. We pray that, Lord, that even in those situations that you would carry them, that you would, Lord, take them through situations and circumstances and bring them out into a wide open place. Pray that you'd bring resolution to things which are, are deeply challenging. Lord, where there's pain and disappointment that you would bind it up, Lord, that you'd surround them with, with good counsel, Lord, surround them with people who love and care and Lord will help them in coming through the difficulties in a redemptive way, in Jesus' name. Lord, I just pray for each one who will listen to these words. Somehow you'll apply them and make them real, and give hope and encouragement and strength in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.

Sarah Park 44:48

God, we greet you and we give you thanks for Vic and his ministry in this space, upholding and supporting those of us in pastoral ministry. We pray for the people whose names are not known to us, and particularly those who are living in the maelstrom of tragedy. Those who are seeking to attend not only to the sheep within their flock, but also to attend to themselves. We ask that you would envelop them and those who watch over them with your healing presence and love, may they be aware of you in unexpected places and encounter you in unexpected people and in it all, may your kingdom come. Yes, Lord. We ask this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Yeah.

Vic Francis 45:38

Thank you. Thank you both. I wanna thank you, Murray and Sarah. Thank you for your work in Auckland and Cambridge and in other places, for your resilience, for your strength, for your faithfulness in the good times, and in the context of this podcast in the hard times as well, for learning the hard way, maybe, and for being willing to pass it on. For being scarred, a little for walking with a limp, but for continuing to inspire and lead your congregations. And in that process, we, your fellow pastors are inspired as well, and so on behalf of the pastors of New Zealand, we champion you too and your holy callings in this uncertain world. God bless you. It's been a privilege.

Murray Smith 46:29

Thanks, Vic. Lord bless you too.

Sarah Park 46:31

Has been an absolute privilege.

Vic Francis 46:52

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'll be back next Tuesday with another episode. This time interviewing Archbishop Justin Duckworth and exploring his challenge to, and hopes for, the church in Aotearoa New Zealand. I do hope you'll join me. God bless you.