For Pastors
Vic Francis combines his background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world.
For Pastors aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives.
For Pastors
Not a Mega-Church
In this episode, Vic is joined by Pastors Odele Habets and Brent Davie, looking at the beauty and wonder of the small to medium-sized church, which let's face it is the size of church most of us are pastoring. For more information on Vic and Solace, check out our website at solace.org.nz, or search us on Facebook or Instagram. And if you would like to support this podcast, please become a member at https://www.patreon.com/c/forpastors
PS: A big thanks to Joel Francis, for his genius in guiding his father towards getting this podcast out. Couldn't have done it without you!
Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. This week's episode is entitled Not a Mega-Church, looking at the beauty and wonder of the small to medium-sized church, which let's face it is the size of church most of us are pastoring. Today I'm joined by Odele Habets from Auckland and Brent Davie from Gore, two pastors of small to medium-sized congregations, and we are gonna celebrate their churches and explore their joys and challenges of life and ministry. Odele, as we begin, we would love to meet your church, Albany Baptist. Please tell us a little bit about it.
Odele Habets:It's a beautiful little church in Albany. We meet at Kristin Chapel at Kristin School every Sunday. And it's been around for 30 years. We used to be at Albany Primary School. We'd set up and pack down every single Sunday. W e don't own our own building, a nd it has a strong missional heart. Yeah.
Vic Francis:Hmm. That's a beautiful sound. So, goes back 30 years. How long have you been there?
Odele Habets:I've been there four and a half years. I'm still counting half years.
Vic Francis:Is it your first church? What is your background in pastoring?
Odele Habets:It's my first church as in terms of being a pastor. I used to be a physio and had my own business. I specialised in hand injuries. But I first sensed a call to ministry when I was 17, and now it's many years later that has been possible.
Vic Francis:That is wonderful. Can you tell us a little bit about how you heard that call and how you arrived at Albany Baptist?
Odele Habets:Yeah, so I was 17 and it was distinctly during a service where I felt God calling me to be a pastor. And so I went forward, even though there wasn't an altar call, and talked to the elders and the pastors at the time. And they didn't feel that women should be pastors. Oh. And so they encouraged me into mission. And I got involved in mission and been involved in mission ever since with the Leprosy Mission in particular. But that call never left me. And when I was applying for the Leprosy Mission, I went to Bible college as part of that in my late twenties and discovered there were other interpretations of those particular texts. That led to me starting to be a lay preacher. And then in my late forties, there was that sense of call again, after being a guest preacher at a church camp. And so Myk and I, my husband and I, started to pray about it, and really sensed that God was calling me into that space. And there were many things that confirmed it. So I started a process with the Baptist Union of New Zealand, a discernment process with them. And then after they affirmed that, v ery quickly started a discernment process with the Baptist Union. Wow. And with Albany Baptist Church.
Vic Francis:With Albany Baptist. And, and here you are. Tell us a little more about Albany, the church. What does it look like? What does it feel like? Why would it be good to attend?
Odele Habets:We are a family church. So as far as the demographics of it go, we have a newborn baby to the age of somebody that's 90. We're multicultural with under 50% is European Pakeha. And then every other culture, really reflective of Albany itself. Albany has 46% Asian. Wow. And we would have that within our church as well. Right. And on Sundays, we're between 40 and 60 that gather to worship. So we are truly a family church of really mixed backgrounds. No one is there because of status or employment or work or wealth. We are there 'cause we're family. Of mixed backgrounds and ages.
Vic Francis:That's a beautiful picture. And we'll come back to some of the strengths and challenges that come of having a, a church of 40 to 60 on a Sunday. Brent we'll go over to you and you are in the deepish south, Gore. Tell us about Gore Baptist Church.
Brent Davie:Yeah, we're here in Gore and G ore Baptist sounds quite similar to what Odele's just been talking about as well, in terms of, very much a family church, uh, as a church it's been here for over a hundred years. Yeah, family church, cradle to the grave as well. And one of the beautiful parts that we are finding at the moment is, as Odele talked about culture at Albany there, we're seeing more culture or different cultures come into our church. And so Southland's very much changing in terms of that kinda landscape. A lot of different cultures come in working on farms, and so we've seen that come into our church as well, which is just a really neat thing. So, yeah, Gore Baptist is a great place to be, very family orientated. We probably have around 120 to 150 on any given Sunday. But people will travel from quite far to be here. So, country roads and all that kind of thing, so I guess the diameter of our circle where people are coming from is probably about an hour's drive from one end to another. So people travel quite a long way to come and so it becomes almost like a focal point in many ways. And so this is where they come and h ang out and they're together and their family and it's community. So as we'll probably talk about more in the next little while, it's a beautiful part of the small to medium-sized churches is that aspect of it.
Vic Francis:What's your story, Brent, in terms of being in Gore and pastoring the church?
Brent Davie:Yeah, so I'm proudly born and bred South Auckland. And so lived in South Auckland for a fair, uh, part of my life and ended up down here about nine and a half years ago. So I was a youth pastor in South Auckland, similar to Odele again, actually. So just had a real sense of call of God when I was about 19 at a CTC convention in Wellington and just really sensed God say youth ministry. And so I was studying to be an accountant at the time, finished that and then a few years later got called into youth ministry, went and worked for a social service, uh, organisation in South Auckland as well. And after 10 years there just had a sense one day driving back from the Naki that God was calling us back into pastoral work and we ended up down here in Gore.
Vic Francis:What a great place to be. And you've been there nearly 10 years?
Brent Davie:Nearly 10 years, yes. We're in our 10th year now. Yeah.
Vic Francis:What are some of the changes that have happened in Gore, and particularly in your church over that time?
Brent Davie:Yeah, so from a positive note, I think that'd be the most positive thing that I've loved seeing the change on is the different cultures that come in. COVID was obviously something that hit us all. And so the change that we sensed after that and which still has a little bit of a hangover effect. We said that COVID empowered people to say no, and so that level of p eople committing long term to things has been a difficult road to navigate, so that's been a, been a bit of a change for us as well.
Vic Francis:And Odele, that's something that you've mentioned as well, the high Asian and probably other nationalities that are in your area. How's that been providing some sort of an integration that somehow represents every culture that might walk in the door.
Odele Habets:It offers just a depth of richness, as you sit around the table, as you have, especially in a, say, connect groups or small group setting where you start to talk about differences or the way you do things. We had a great conversation with a Nigerian couple that I had the pleasure of marrying and, um, they were taking their wedding, but they were going back to Nigeria and they were talking about the way in which their ceremonies take place. And then we had somebody from China that was talking about how they, um, had their marriage and somebody from Sri Lanka who actually had an arranged marriage and, and just that real richness of what comes with, um, those cultural differences in how things are worked out and what is cultural and what is Christian. A nd seeing the richness and the ways in which we celebrate can be different and, um, that they are still Christian as well, you know?, Yeah, it's Christ above culture, not culture informing Christianity, but the way in which we live it out and work it out can look different and that's okay.
Vic Francis:I love that Christ above culture and a representation, isn't it, of the way our country's changed. And a wonderful thing in terms of people coming to your church. Challenging though, of course, but wonderful to hear you're working through. I love that word, rich. It's, it's a rich thing. Yeah. Brent, so going, going back to Gore, maybe that is more noticeable even in Gore because in Auckland there is so much immigration. How has that played out within Gore Baptist?
Brent Davie:Yeah, so we've actually started up an international connect group, and so that's been running for maybe about five or six years now. Just someone in our church, she's from Singapore. So went through that whole immigration process and tried to integrate into family and then church and, just seeing the need in our community. And so we started up a group and there may be 40 to 50 different people that turn up to that now, uh, which is just fantastic. And so that's kind of a, a side to the congregation on a Sunday. But there's definitely been a move with, they're coming into the services and becoming part of small groups, which is obviously really cool to see. And, yeah, the other weekend we had a service and we looked around and after the service, my wife and I counted, we were like, there's about 10 different cultures in the room today. Wow. Whereas I think 10 years ago we would've said, maybe there's two cultures in the room today. So it's, it is a beautiful thing. And the food as well, of course. So many different varieties of food, which just adds to that richness and beauty.
Vic Francis:As we come to the end of this first segment, I wanna ask you each a question. And that is why and what do you love about your small or medium-sized church. Maybe Odele, shall we start with you?
Odele Habets:I love the people. I know that God loves Albany Baptist and so do I, um, for the people within, as you get to know them at deeper and deeper levels and not just me getting to know them, but I love the fact that across the church, they're getting to know each other and know each other really well and know what's going on in each other's lives. To be able to pray for them, to be able to support them, to be able to drop off meals, when they need it, to offer that practical help. And like you were saying with immigration, because we do have new people coming all the time that might just be on visitors' visas at the moment, but they're wanting to be able to see if they can stay, um, then we are happy to support them however we can. Teaming them up with other people that have been through similar processes. So what I love about Albany Baptist is just their willingness and their heart to help and serve others. We celebrate things that we are grateful for every week. And it is a church that is grateful no matter what we are going through or whatever is happening, we are grateful to God. And we are also grateful for one another. So what I love about our church is that it's got a big heart.
Vic Francis:Big heart. Beautiful. Thank you. Brent, what do you love about Gore Baptist?
Brent Davie:Yeah, it would definitely be a similar line just the community aspect. Genuine care for one another. You know, meal trains that go out when there's babies around. Caring at times of grief and through funerals and through loss. You know, we, we've been the recipients of it in our family. So just that genuine care I think is is quite a beautiful part of the church. And then it is in such practical ways as well. So it's not just a text or a how you going or hello. There's real practical, uh, ways of serving and loving people. And so it's just a beautiful part of the church here.
Vic Francis:How wonderful. Well, that's a good place I think for us to pause and when we return, we'll look at the benefits, and the drawbacks of course, of pastoring small to medium-sized churches. We'll be right back. Odele and Brent, welcome back to the Not a Mega-Church episode of the For Pastors podcast. We've introduced your two churches, Albany Baptist and Gore Baptist, and I've been looking up the Baptist statistics, which says there are 27,000 Baptists who attend church on any given Sunday. And there are about 250 Baptist churches. So an average attendance of just over 100. And given that there are three or four very big Baptist churches, it means most Baptist churches are gonna be under a hundred. And my hunch is that is probably pretty reflective of denominations across New Zealand. Most of our churches are small and medium-sized, regardless of how you define that number. So in this session, let's go a little deeper into the, the pluses, I guess, and the minuses. And so maybe Brent, we can start with you. Tell us some of the benefits of healthy small and medium-sized churches.
Brent Davie:I think two spring to mind. O ne would be that people genuinely connect with one another. And genuinely care for one another. So once that connection's made, the care follows. So, that would be a very obvious benefit for me in terms of how church plays out just that community aspect again, you know, if you've got 80 people in the room, a hundred people in the room, it's a lot harder to sneak out the back door as it were.
Vic Francis:Indeed.
Brent Davie:And so people, get to know each other really well, which is just a beautiful part of, um, church community. And then probably the other one for me is it seems probably in a smaller church, it's easier to get people involved, uh, to discover where they're good and where they're passionate and what they love doing and where they're gifted, and then finding a place for them to serve and be involved. And I've always thought that when people are serving, then that's a real key to k eeping people as part of the place and, and in community together.
Vic Francis:Odele, how have you seen it in terms of some of the benefits of healthy, small and medium-sized churches?
Odele Habets:I think you're right. It provides that opportunity of really having authentic friendships and connections to support one another. And also, yeah, the opportunity of discovering people's spiritual gifts. You actually get to know, and as things come up that you can draw on those gifts. I think one another benefit is just 'cause you are small, you can be quite agile. Mm-hmm. So you can change things up. You can mix things up. Suddenly you can just decide, okay, after church we're all heading to the beach and everyone knows about it immediately. The chain goes out. The phone chain goes out, even if those are missing from the service that Sunday. So yeah, you can be flexible, agile and respond to needs quite quickly. So it can be ad hoc or it could be like, actually because we've got so many people in the church that love to play badminton, let's set up a badminton club. Let's do it next week. You don't have to go through an approval process of various levels. You can just do it and decide together, and move quite quickly to make things happen. It just gives you that flexibility and I think in a church service as well, being smaller, you can, like I said before, we celebrate being grateful, we have gratitude goodies every week, where people come up and share about what's happened during the week that they're grateful for. They also get a piece of paper that they can write down what they're grateful for and take it home and they fill their gratitude jar up, which they'll look at at the end of the year. So you can be creative as well.
Vic Francis:Yeah. Yeah. I love those ideas. And the fact that most of our churches end up the sort of size that we are probably says something about the way that God gathers people and the way that people can grow well. But I think we would all say that there are some drawbacks as well. Some things that maybe we would ache for a little or we wish we had. I mean, Odele, for example, you mentioned that you set up and break down your hall every week, which must be quite taxing. So what are some of the, uh, drawbacks or disadvantages from your point of view?
Odele Habets:Well we are fortunate now that we've actually had to move location 'cause they were demolishing the hall. Oh. So we had to move and so we found somewhere that is a chapel, that's already set up. And so that's actually been a real blessing not to do that because it's great to be able to use people's gifts and talents, not just chair stacking. So that's been a real blessing to us. But yeah, resources is probably the biggest drawback, I would say. Just with limited numbers. For instance, where we have the space to meet, we don't have a dedicated children's facility for our children's ministry. But we've got a wonderful couple, um, elders that bought a caravan and they bring it every single Sunday. So there are ways around it. So even though there's difficulties, I see them as opportunities of how we can be creative around things. But yeah, resources. Mm. Um, if you look at what people give every Sunday per person, we are a very generous church. Right? But the actual number at the end result is low because we are small.
Vic Francis:Of course in Auckland too, Odele, t here are a lot of other options. So there must be people who would come into a smaller church and say there's not enough here for my kids or for my youth. Is that something you see?
Odele Habets:Yeah, certainly. If you are a consumer driven Christian, that's sounds rather judgmental.
Vic Francis:Well that's, that's quite a lot of us.
Odele Habets:It was funny actually, on Sunday there was a new guy that came. He googled us and saw that we ran a badminton club. So he, he came for the first time and I was carrying big boxes up to the church of different things and he said, oh, I'm looking for the church. And I said, oh, come with me,? And he said, can I help you? I said, sure. I said, you are welcome to the church. Carry a box up.
Vic Francis:Oh, that's lovely.
Odele Habets:And I said, that's how we are, that's how we roll here. And he was really happy t o be helpful, part of it on his very first Sunday.
Vic Francis:Isn't that great? We are in our own building now, but we met in school halls for 25 years and I always say even to our new people, we are a roll your sleeves up sort of church somehow in our DNA, even though we've been in a building for 10 years, you probably won't be that happy here, just to sit in the back row because we are a can-do church. Brent, disadvantages from your point of view.
Brent Davie:As much as I said earlier, it's great that people have opportunity to serve, if people are away or unable to, then sometimes ministries could potentially fall over or n ot be as well resourced. So the music team, for example, if we have two people that can lead or play guitar and one's away and one's sick, what are we gonna do this week? And you don't want me leading worship. I think that would probably be one where, yeah, if people are away, sick or anything like that, then it's just hard to make things happen sometimes.
Vic Francis:What about the pressure to be bigger? I know just speaking for myself, pastoring 32 years, it's a long stint and, there's probably not a Sunday where I haven't thought, oh, I wish there were 10 more people or 50 more people in the church, or every time that our movement does a census of, you know, how many baptisms or whatever, uh, every time a pastor asks, So, how's your church going? And you just know that it's code for how many people are in your church. Have you felt that sort of pressure to be bigger? And if so, how do you handle it? Brent?
Brent Davie:Yeah, definitely felt it. I think it's very real. It does exist and those questions get asked in all sorts of places and, and definitely if, yeah, like I've got friends who have pastors in bigger churches and so you mix with them and you feel it and you hear it. I think for me, now that I've been here 9/10 years, I'm more comfortable in my own skin and more comfortable with what we are doing and more comfortable here. And so I don't feel it maybe as keenly as I once did, but then that can all depend on my own mental health at the time and my spiritual health at the time, and how I'm doing personally, whether I'm feeling it or not. But it, definitely exists. It's there. And I, I guess for me, I've got to the point where I firmly believe God has a part to play and I have a part to play, God's part is like 99.9%. And so for me, if I can faithfully do my 0.1%, then that is really what he's called me to do. And so if numbers come because of that, great. If numbers don't, but I'm being faithful to what he's called me to do, then that's also great. It's there. And it is a battle, I think for any pastor of a small, medium-sized church.
Vic Francis:Thanks, Brent. Odele, any comments on that?
Odele Habets:My first hui that I went to, someone wanted to know what I do. And I said I was sole pastor, this one particular person was a bit shocked 'cause I was a female and said, so how, how big's your church? And I said, oh, we get about 40 to 60 on Sunday. They were like, mm. I was shocked actually, like at the response. So it definitely happens, but I'm more amused by it now in people's reactions, because it is what it is, like you said, Brent, we are called to serve the Lord, and numbers is, that's his game, not ours, as long as we are doing what he's called us to do. Um, so yeah, strangely, I'm not impacted by it in a negative sense. I see it more reflective of others, I think, but I also see myself as part of a wider movement as well, so that we are part of it together so that although my numbers might be small, our churches might be small in number that we are part of something bigger. Like we'll do a midwinter Christmas dinner but we don't have the capacity to run an Alpha after it. But we advertise other churches' Alphas that do have the capacity to do it. So we are just part of the bigger kingdom. And so therefore, numbers don't matter.
Vic Francis:Oh, I love that you guys are so much more mature than me. Thank you for coaching me through that. Those are some lovely thoughts and really important. So we're coming towards the end of our second segment here. I wanna ask you, big or small, Odele, where does your security as a pastor just have to lie?
Odele Habets:Yeah, it has to lie in Christ, in Christ alone. It really does. I think for the first two years of my ministry I was doing a lot on my own strength, not knowing that I was. E ven though I kept saying I was dependent on God, I know I, I did a lot in my own strength and I ended up not in a great place as far as being a bit stressed out. And then I broke my ankle and that was a significant injury and it just forced me to be deeper and deeper dependent on God. And that level of depth of dependency just continues to grow. And with that growth of dependency, you just become freer and freer. Mm-hmm. In what you do, because you just, it's all about him. And um, I know that sounds super spiritual, but unless we have got that dependency on Christ, then how can we possibly lead others to be dependent on Christ as well.
Vic Francis:Yeah, Brent?
Brent Davie:It has to be that you're a child of God. You, you're loved by your Heavenly Father, who cares deeply for you. And that has to be where your security is or you, you will crash and there will be problems. So yeah, absolutely. It's an audience of one, I think. In terms of what you're doing and when you're preparing and, when you're getting things ready for Sundays or whatever it is. I'm doing this for Jesus, and it's for him. And yeah, he's it.
Vic Francis:Well, thank you both. It's the sort of question that we all know the right answer to. It's harder to do, and it is just so important for us to be reminded. Get it out of the head and into the heart at some point as well. S o thank you both for helping us to look at many aspects and challenges of small and medium-sized churches. In the next session, we're going to explore this important conversation just a little bit further, so we will be right back.
Vic Francis:Welcome back to Odele Habets and Brent Davie and our exploration of small and medium-sized churches. You know the books we read are often written by mega-church pastors. The speakers at the conferences that we go to are often the people with the big churches, maybe 'cause it seems like they're more successful. It often feels, I think, like bigger would be better when we have our church planning and vision meetings or the conversations we have with our movements or our other churches. Even in our own prayers and dreams, I think sometimes bigger seems like it would be better. So what would you say to a pastor who is discouraged about the size of his or her church? Odele?
Odele Habets:Keep going, keep going. Yeah. Yeah, keep going. Try not and be discouraged. And I guess, bigger in terms of numbers isn't necessarily better. Once again, like we said before, you know, is our dependency on God and, and doing what he wants us to do. And w hen you're talking about success of a church, it's not just about numbers, right? So that's qualitative as well as quantitative. And so how are people journeying in their faith? And, and that comes about from relationships and being a smaller church, you have opportunities to disciple and walk alongside people a lot more. So yeah, I'd just encourage p astors to continue to be resilient, continue to walk alongside your people and doing what God has called you to do. And I think you've got the opportunity to use the giftings that God has given you in a really unique way. You've got flexibility, you don't have to be just the preaching pastor or just the pastoral care pastor, but you can be, you, you need to cover it all. Yeah. Um, but you can actually, with the support of your eldership, go greater into the areas of your giftings. It may not be preaching, it might be community development, it might be pastoral care, it might be whatever it is with your giftings that you have and, um, your eldership can support in other ways in the other giftings that you might not have. So it provides so many opportunities. And I'd just say, go for it. Yeah. Forget about the numbers and just go for what God has called you to do.
Vic Francis:I like the idea of having a different handle on what is success and what is not. Yes. You know, you talk about the relationships, you talk about the way individuals' lives are actually growing in faith. I think that's fantastic. Brent, what would you say to a discouraged pastor?
Brent Davie:I would say remember your, your calling. Remember the time that you really sensed God saying this is where you're meant to be and this is what you're meant to do. And to know that calling is still very real for you today, and that God's called you to this place and to this time, and to this generation, and to this people, and this community, and, as Odele said, just go for it. Hang in there. Keep doing what, what God's called you to do. Find places to continue to love people and to serve people. Help people become disciples of Jesus. What better thing could you do with your life? Just keep at it.
Vic Francis:What about, um, they say healthy things grow so that maybe if your church isn't growing, it's not that healthy. So what are your thoughts about that, Brent?
Brent Davie:Maybe it depends what growth looks like. Like we said, growth isn't just numbers, is it? And so your church might be growing and discipling and nurturing someone or someones who are gonna lead some amazing ministry, who are gonna do some groundbreaking work. It could be just one or two people that have something in the future for them. So, it doesn't have to be about numbers. It could be about hearts, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So we're growing hearts and we're growing our disciples, like John Mark Comer talks about apprentices to Jesus. And I really like that phrase. If we're growing apprentices to Jesus, then that's a beautiful thing.
Vic Francis:Yeah. Fantastic. Odele?
Odele Habets:Yeah, I was just thinking, actually as a Baptist movement, the past few years we've been talking about growing in authentic worship, growing in discipleship, a nd growing in effective mission and growing our resources. So those are other ways apart from church numbers, that we see what it means to be a healthy church.
Vic Francis:That is fantastic and quite a balance that you can bring, when maybe a little bit discouraged along the way. We have in New Zealand, mega-churches and larger churches that are attractive to a lot of people and are doing terrific work. As pastors of smaller and medium-sized churches, as you guys, what would you say to our, to our bigger churches, our mega-churches? Odele, any thoughts there?
Odele Habets:Yeah. We love you guys. We think what you do is awesome in serving the way in which God has called you to serve. And yeah, I do see the kingdom of God as like a, a big forest. Mm-hmm. Some are kauri, some are silver ferns, some are house churches, like moss. And we all, you know, have this r eally important role to play within this ecosystem of the Kingdom of God, of supporting one another. Um, I'm fortunate to be part of Auckland Church Leaders Network, and so just that beauty of other pastors coming alongside each other, to pray for one another and support one another. We are all on the same journey. We face similar things, maybe in different ways, but we all have a passion and a heart for God and that can only be wonderful. So yeah, it's great to be part of the wider "C", the wider church. God's church.
Vic Francis:Thank you, Odele. Brent, any thoughts on what to say to our big churches?
Brent Davie:I wanna start off by saying we love you as well and we think you're amazing and end of day like we do with everyone, we would just hope and pray that they are all that God has called them to be, and that they serve and love people that God has given them to serve and to love. And we're thankful for 'em too because in so many ways, you know, we, we are supported by different churches and different big churches and that's a great thing for us. So, yeah, we love them and just hope and pray the very best and God's richest blessings upon all that they do and put their hands to.
Vic Francis:Mm, thank you both of you. As we come towards the end of, of this podcast, there's a question that I ask all of the guests on the For Pastors podcast, which is what gives you hope? So, Odele, would you kick us off? What gives you hope?
Odele Habets:Ultimately our hope is found in Christ, right? Mm-hmm. And we can see like the glimmers often just small glimmers and sometimes big moments of God, active and present in our world. And as I have the privilege of walking alongside people and seeing God, working in people's lives, seeing the Holy Spirit leading and guiding people, um, in everyday things is what gives me hope, that the church is alive and well. And because God is alive and well in our world. And so that hope that, yeah, o f things not yet seen, but all that will come. And we are just in this already, not yet, tension at the moment of seeing his kingdom come and it's just, just awesome to just be a part of it.
Vic Francis:Brent. What gives you hope?
Brent Davie:Clearly Jesus gives me hope, being a follower of his is where my hope is based. I think in terms of this podcast and hope for others who might be listening, is just that realisation that, that the local church is God's plan A and what we're part of is God's plan A, to share his message of hope and his message of love, and his message of forgiveness and mercy to a broken world. And the message we have of Jesus and his life and teachings and death and resurrection is just, it's the hope for the world, right? And so we get to play a part in his mission to the world. And so that, that's, that's just hope-giving.
Vic Francis:One of the other things that I'm asking the guests on the For Pastors podcast is to pray for our pastors. It strikes me that pastors are selfless, mostly. They give out a lot. They pray for other people a lot. And maybe, just maybe sometimes they don't get prayed for as much as they could or should. And so I would love to ask both of you if you would pray for me, 'cause I'm a pastor, but pray for others who would be listening to this, that God would really meet them where they are. So Brent, would you lead us?
Brent Davie:Father God, we thank you for your church. We thank you for this wonderful thing that you have put together to make your name known. And God, we thank you for the pastors of your church who are listening in today. We pray that you'd encourage them and their calling, encourage them in their ministry and encourage them in all that they do. God, I thank you for them. I thank you that they've said yes to loving you and said yes to loving people and serving people and so, God, we pray that you would bless them in Jesus' name. Father, there'd be some today feeling discouraged, u nsure, uncertain. So I pray that you would nurture them, that you'd encourage them, that they'd know a significant touch of the Spirit of God on their lives, even today. Father God, I pray that we would use the gifts you've given us for the sake of your kingdom, in Jesus' name. Mm. Yeah.
Odele Habets:Lord, we thank you for this opportunity to give you praise for all that you are doing, through pastors in Aotearoa. We pray that you will continue to lead and guide your people, your pastors here in New Zealand. By your Spirit, p rompt them for when they need to do certain things in certain ways. But Lord, we ask that you fill them afresh by your Spirit, to equip them, enable them and to empower them to do the work that you have called them to do. We ask this in your precious name. Amen. Amen.
Vic Francis:Well, I wanna thank you both for being on the podcast to talk about being a smaller or a medium-sized church and some of the, the wonders and even the challenges that you face on a day to day and week to week basis. I want to thank you for your work in Albany and for your work in Gore. I wanna thank you for your love for your churches, for your communities, and for the people that God has called you to. I wanna thank you for facing the challenges and being faithful to your calls, and so I wanna champion you too, in your holy calling in this uncertain world. God bless you, Brent and Odele. Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'll be back next Tuesday with another episode, looking at the often vexed question of length of tenure in our call to ministry. How long to stay and when to go. I hope you'll join me. God bless you.