How Long, Lord?

In this episode, Vic is joined by Pastor Don Barry and Major Susan Goldsack, looking at the often-vexed question of length of tenure in our call to ministry and how long to stay and when to go. 

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Transcript

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Vic Francis 0:00

Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. This week's episode is entitled How Long, Lord? looking at the often-vexed question of length of tenure in our call to ministry and how long to stay and when to go. Today, I'm joined by Susan Goldsack from the Salvation Army in the South Island, and Don Barry from Gateway Church in Hamilton, two pastors whose lives and ministries have taken them in quite different ways in terms of their calls and how they've been outworked. Susan, Don, welcome to the For Pastors podcast. And Susan, as we begin, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Susan Goldsack 1:22

So born to British parents, born in Whanganui. And have spent most of my years thus far in New Zealand, currently with my husband appointed in Christchurch. We've got three adult children with two spouses between them and a teenager still at home at high school in his senior years. We are a family with no pets and I guess with the story that you'll hear soon about our frequent moving, pets aren't an easy thing to have. Once I was a registered, well, I still am a registered nurse and a midwife. Though no longer engaged in the, the nursing midwife profession, I consider myself a midwife of souls.

Vic Francis 2:13

Midwife of souls.

Susan Goldsack 2:15

My happy place for refreshment is out in the garden. Lovely. I'm out in creation.

Vic Francis 2:22

Susan, it's great to meet you. Don, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Don Barry 2:25

Thanks so much, Vic, for having me on. It's a delight. Interestingly, Susan, though we haven't met, I'm from the same area as you. I was born and raised in Marton.

Susan Goldsack 2:34

Oh, right.

Don Barry 2:35

Twenty minutes away from Whanganui. And Whanganui was my boyhood city where I played lots of sport. So know that area well. Um until 18 months ago, I was married to Karen. Karen passed away and so the last 18 months have been interesting for me as I've been negotiating being a widower. I have two adult children and four wonderful grandchildren. Um, absolute delight of our lives and my life. I've been in Hamilton now for, well, in the Waikato since the 1980s, in Cambridge for nearly 12 years, a Waikato man, a Chiefs man. Enjoying at this point in time, a kind of retirement. I gave up the pastorate a couple of years ago and am now part-time on the teaching team.

Vic Francis 3:22

Thank you, Don, and it's lovely to have you both here at fairly opposite ends of the country and very different experiences in ministry, the two of you. And so Susan, go back to you. What, what is your story in terms of this conversation about tenure and how has it outworked for you and your role in the Salvation Army?

Susan Goldsack 3:41

So, my family of origin, we were part of a local Salvation Army corps in my growing up years and then into my twenties had various places that I lived in. So, was involved in a number of different Salvation Army corps, within, uh, just local leadership. So, in my 30s, my husband and I trained for two years at our ministry college in Upper Hutt. And since then have had a number of corps leadership, pastoral roles. We've had a three year stint, a four year stint, another four year stint, a five year stint, and now we have moved, um, been appointed out of local pastoral ministry into some more oversight roles. So I now oversee and mission support 13 Salvation Army centres in the upper part of the South Island.

Vic Francis 4:41

Well, that's quite a progression, isn't it? And just to dig into the Salvation Army process, the changes, the three year, the four year, the four year, the five year, those are part of the Salvation Army p rocess of reassigning people into different, yes, churches or corps, I guess.

Susan Goldsack 4:59

Yeah. So once, uh, you are ordained and commissioned as army officers, you then submit yourself to an appointment system and there is a process by which you don't get to choose your place of ministry, but are appointed somewhere through, through a discernment process, I guess you could call it, through the, the senior leadership of the country in which you are serving. F or some that move into more senior roles, some of those become appointed from London rather than even within a New Zealand context. Mm-hmm. There is a regular review of that annually and you may stay or you may go.

Vic Francis 5:40

And you don't really know about whether you're staying or going until when, and how long would you be given to move in that time?

Susan Goldsack 5:49

The process for looking at that really starts in May when you have opportunity to make comment and have your input. When the decisions are made, the public announcement happens in September and you move at the beginning of January to be in your new appointment in that first week of January.

Vic Francis 6:08

Yeah. So quite a different experience I imagine to what you've had, Don. Tell us about your experience in ministry and, and how that's worked in terms of your sense of staying in the place that God's called you to.

Don Barry 6:21

Yeah, sure. Karen and I both got saved in the Jesus movement way back in the early seventies. We were actually Catholics at the time. Mm-hmm. There wasn't really an expression of the Catholic charismatic renewal in that early season. And so we drifted our way into a Pentecostal church. I was school teaching at the time. It was a small church, grew quite rapidly during those years. And my pastor asked if I would come on staff. So I did and I stayed in that church for seven years. At the end of that time, it was a bit tumultuous to be fair, Vic, and I didn't feel the call to move. I was dismissed.

Vic Francis 7:00

Yeah.

Don Barry 7:01

By virtue of not agreeing with the senior pastor's activities and then I actually thought I'd probably go back school teaching, but just by virtue of a miracle really, I was invited up to Cambridge to pastor a very small Assemblies of God church there. We stayed there for 11 and a half, nearly 12 years. Absolutely loved Cambridge and had no desire or plans to move, when God really sort of upset the apple cart to be fair and let us know in no uncertain terms that we would be moving to a city. We weren't aware for a little while of what that city was, but Hamilton came to us and began inviting us to come. Initially my response was, no, I don't want to go there. I knew the church. They were obviously very close to us being in Cambridge, and I knew just the DNA was not a real fit, but they came back and said, Hey, if you won't take the church, will you look after the Bible college for a season? So we said yes. And that ended up, while it was supposed to be a two year stint, we're, we're still here, Vic. And that was in 1992.

Vic Francis 8:08

1992. That's a long time ago.

Don Barry 8:11

Two year stint. And we're still here

Vic Francis 8:13

So at some stage after your couple of years at the Bible college, you ended up pastoring the church?

Don Barry 8:19

I did. The church went through a very, very difficult time by virtue of revelations of an absolute senior member of the Assemblies of God who had been kind of the founding pastor. Mm. It was found out that he'd been a serial adulterer and the news just broke on the church and tore it apart. Wow. The guy who was pastoring it at the time j ust went through a breakdown, really. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And felt very, very sorry for him, for what he was carrying. And the eldership came to Karen and I and said, look, would you step in and lead it? At that stage, we had one more year of our two year stint to go, and so we said, look, we'll look after it while you find another victim. I mean, pastor. Yes. And um, as it turned out where we were supposed to be going all fell through and suddenly we had the reins of this church that was on this absolute wild merry-go-round ride.

Vic Francis 9:09

Wow. And I think you said maybe a couple of years ago you handed it over, but you pastored that church for the best part of 30 years or more. Is that right? That is incredible. So your stories are very different, and intriguing to me. Mm-hmm. In terms of this subject. So, Susan, if we, if we think about the Salvation Army approach, what are some of the benefits that you would see of the short term ministry style or ethos that the Salvation Army has?

Susan Goldsack 9:37

When you say short term, we think in terms of the 3, 4, 5 years, but in our early years as the Salvation Army and its development in the UK and then as it sort of just spread across the world, appointments might be for three months or six months. And so it was like go into a place really either g et the ministry up and going and get a church underway and then move on to do that in the next place. So our early roots were really rapid change as sort of that reinforcement, get it, get it going, hand it over to the people and move on to somewhere else.

Vic Francis 10:13

Very book of Acts, it sounds. Yes. Yeah.

Susan Goldsack 10:15

Yes, and so, over the years that time has lengthened, thankfully. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But you know, even in the, the 70s in New Zealand people were having those short term appointments. And so it gave opportunity, I guess, for people to come with particular skill and giftings to really spearhead a move of God in a place and then would go on and use those skills somewhere else. If you think of in terms of us now, where we've had 3, 4, 5 years, there is a shift to lengthening that. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not unknown within the New Zealand for officers to stay 10 or 11 years, that's still not the usual, but we certainly don't want to be seeing people move on, you know, before five years. O ne of the positives out of those short moves is that opportunity to develop differing skills. Each place you go to asks of different things from you. And so there's that possibility of becoming a generalist, a GP pastor who is able to have some knowledge and expertise in lots of different ways, different environments. God draws from you different gifts. And you come with fresh perspective, I guess. Not saying that that's easy, though. The short term stays have a cost on you.

Vic Francis 11:42

I'm sure it'll be challenging for you as the ministers and maybe for the congregations in some cases. We might get to explore that a little more. Don, it's a different scenario for you and having stayed over 30 years in the church that you have been involved and still are involved on staff there, what are the benefits do you see of long term ministry?

Don Barry 12:04

Well, I think coming into Gateway and picking up a culture that was unbelievably broken and toxic, it really took us, I, I would say probably between five and seven years mm-hmm to begin to change the culture, Vic, and the reality is, if you're gonna change culture, that requires time. Mm-hmm. And intensity of effort in, in one direction I think the research basically says longevity points toward the possibility of church health and church growth. I don't think it guarantees it by any means, but I think it can establish the foundation for it, probably on a couple of levels.

Don Barry 12:45

Number one, people actually get to know you and hopefully the relational trust that's built up over many years of watching a life that, you would hope, is reasonably well lived with all its brokenness and clay feet. Nevertheless, people get to know you and trust you and when you've been spending that kind of length of time with people, you know, and births and deaths and weddings and, and baptisms, there's a r elational trust. You know, it's really interesting that in both the churches, Cambridge and Hamilton, I had an experience of where somebody came to me after about, in one instance, three years in another one, five years, and they came up to me and said, Hey Don, I just want you to know you're my pastor. And I said, yeah, I know that I've been your pastor for three years. And they said, no, Don, we're just telling you, you're our pastor. And what they were essentially saying is, you know in one way, you've been on trial, we've been watching, is there credibility? Can we trust you? And after that length of time, they were saying, and we do. Mm. And so it does take time, I think, to build that kind of t rust and trust is a massive issue in pastoral ministry. It sure is. I think one of the things for me personally is when you're in one place for a long time, it forces you to keep growing deeper. You can't just reproduce the sermons that you've had for the last three years or even four years. Mm-hmm. You, y ou have to keep growing and some pastors, I don't mean to be unkind, but, say I have 20 years experience, but what they really mean is I've got one year experience and I've repeated it 20 times. Yes.

Vic Francis 14:19

Yeah.

Don Barry 14:20

But if you're in one place for a length of time, it really does force you to grow deeper. Um, I think perhaps another issue is vision continuity. If you get constant sort of change a nd people come with new ideas, fresh ideas, I think sometimes the congregation can tire of that and just go, where are we going with this guy? Whereas if you are there a long time, they get to understand you, your dreams and your hopes for the church. Mm-hmm. I think also, um, Vic and Susan, another thing that it forced me to do was it forced me to confront issues and sometimes problem people that if I'd have known I was gonna be only there for two or maybe three years I would've been tempted to leave well alone and thought, you know, no, somebody else can deal with that, I'm not gonna, I'm not prepared to take the hornets' nest that I'll stir. But if you're gonna be there long term, you're gonna have to deal with those situations as unpleasant as they might be. And so you don't get the situation of just leaving it for some other poor character to come in and hear it. It forced me to deal with issues that I probably would've preferred not to, to be fair.

Vic Francis 15:31

Well, thank you Don. Those are compelling reasons indeed. And Susan, they would also be important factors in a Salvation Army context, wouldn't they?

Susan Goldsack 15:41

Yes, they are. And I think there is this slow move and we're a, a big animal, the Salvation Army, when we think of our international connectedness, that some of these changes are, are a bit slower happening. Yeah. But the things you raise, Don, are very much, as an officer who's done those shorter term changes, that we recognise a re some of the challenges, and both personally in our leadership and also challenges for the people who are part of those congregations. Mm. The way we establish our relationships, right from the get go at the start of those appointments are really important. Yeah. But there's an element within it, too, the day you start, you start to leave because we know we are not gonna be there 10, 20, 30 years. And so that changes a bit of the dynamic around relationships that we just can't avoid and isn't always helpful for some people.

Vic Francis 16:39

Yes, I'm sure it's challenging either way. And it's fascinating to hear the different perspectives and the different ways that these are approached. And we will get to, uh, have a longer look as we move into our next section We're gonna be looking at our call as pastors, how to live in that call, how to be with it and how to discern it as it evolves. So, we'll be right back. Don and Susan, welcome back to the How Long, Lord? episode of the For Pastors Podcast, talking about short, medium, long-term ministry. And as we've talked about this topic, I can't help thinking that our call is a critical part of this conversation. So, Susan, maybe to ask you first, what is this thing about the call? How important it is, and how do you live with it as a pastor?

Susan Goldsack 18:26

The call into pastoral ministry, in my setting, to offering myself into full-time ministry has to be as a result of response to something God is asking and that we're sensing, that that specific thing is what God is challenging me into, or calling me into. I think it's sensed very differently by different people. We've all, you know, got different ways of perceiving God's voice to us and so there's no one set way at which that comes. But in order to respond, to train into ministry in this full time way, it, it requires a, a certainty that this is something that God is drawing you into. It's not sustainable three years or 30 years if there's not a sense that this giving over of myself into this is what God would ask of us. And so within my Salvation Army setting, we are quite proactive at challenging people to think about whether their response to God and their discipleship is to be in pastoral ministry or to be a dentist or to be someone who cares for people in their homes. All those aspects God can call us into, but I think for pastoral ministry that has to be sure and certain. Yeah. That it is from God.

Vic Francis 19:59

I know in my work as a spiritual director and a supervisor, I often ask my clients about their call, 'cause mainly I'm seeing pastors, and every pastor that I've talked to has that deep sense of call, which may be challenged or it may be, they may struggle with it at some stage, but going back to that sense, they're only doing it really because they have that sense of God, don't they? And that's a great strength. I think in my time as a pastor, possibly the call is the only thing that's actually kept my head above water at times when things are going very difficult. And so, Don, I'm wondering from your point of view, how important is that sense of call? Not at the beginning so much, but in an ongoing way in keeping our ministry vibrant or, or keeping our heart in the ministry that we are doing.

Don Barry 20:47

I'm with Susan in the sense of, I think the call of God is a response to what God is speaking to you about, and when that's become clear to you, for me, that's been like an anchor. In the times when the water is really, really stormy, it has been the thing that's helped me. I remember G. Campbell Morgan once saying to his ministerial students, if you can do anything else, other than ministry, do it. The only people that will survive in ministry are people who know that they can't do anything else. Not in the sense of competence. But in the sense of that grip of God on their life. You know, when Paul talked about being a debtor to the gospel and there's, he owed a debt that he had to repay with his life, and there's that sense that I think holds you in ministry. It's kinda like the ballast in the boat that stops it getting tipped over, when the waves look as if they're gonna tip the boat right over, it's the ballast in the boat that's kind of like the call of God and that grip of God on your life that pulls you back up into that upright position and stops what's potentially gonna be a capsize. Been absolutely vital for me.

Vic Francis 21:55

That grip of God is a great, description of the thing that you just can't let go. And I guess if you are in any other job that you would just walk out or you'd look for a different job. Uh, and I think, um, one of the things early in my pastoral life, perhaps something of a crisis that I hit, was that my peers, when they first seemed to be taking off in their career and they're earning good money and they're starting to be successful and travel or doing all the things that it felt like I wasn't able to do because of the call of God on my life. And having to again, uh, uncover within me, I guess it's that grip of God, that ballast, that for me this is the way that I feel like God is leading me and that God is wanting me to be. W ithin that call, Susan, are we called for life, do you think? And are we allowed to review our call along the way?

Susan Goldsack 22:49

God's call is, um, you know, within his divine plan, we are never promised tomorrow. God's ask of us is in the now to be responsive to him. And so, today, in the now, it is for the rest of my days. Mm. And within the Salvation Army setting, that is a sight that we have as we step into this, that this is where God is calling me. I certainly don't say that can't change, you know, God's move in our lives and, and the spaces that we're in, God can draw us to something else. But it is for today that I am called and that will lead on tomorrow and it will lead on to the next day and what he forms in me is for the ongoing. How that looks even within our different denominations at different stages, what has been asked of us, might be a bit different from pastoral ministry to area leadership to senior leadership within a stream are different ways that we can live out that call. So it doesn't all look the same and it's not, won't necessarily remain in one expression, but God calls all disciples to follow him. And I think it's that alertness to that, that presence of God, for the strength and the skill he brings for today.

Vic Francis 24:20

So within the Salvation Army, would there be a regular opportunity to somehow review the call that you've made?

Susan Goldsack 24:28

We do have a regular review of that call. We have an annual opportunity within our congregations to review our commitment to God, w herever that is expressed within the Salvation Army f or officers, because we are appointed to that next place of ministry. We're given opportunity to speak into that every year. And so that asks the question from us. Yes, actually, where is God in this present setting and what might I be hearing from him? So yeah, it is something we do regularly not just for those in ministry and full-time ministry, but for all disciples to annually review what's God saying.

Vic Francis 25:11

And to be free to do that sounds very encouraging to me, a nd to trust God, I guess, in that process.

Susan Goldsack 25:18

Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Vic Francis 25:19

Don, did you ever have a crisis of call within your 30 plus years pastoring at Gateway?

Don Barry 25:25

No, I haven't, Vic. I've had plenty of crisis. There were times that I didn't know whether I would get through, but I honestly, hand on heart, can say I've never wanted to get out. Mm-hmm. I felt such a strong call in those early years, and for me, I felt like it was to be my life. I'm not suggesting that everybody else has to feel that, and I think you mentioned, Susan, it's such an individual thing. Yeah. But I remember hearing a pastor say to me, not that long ago, he was about my age, and he was saying, oh, I've done my shift, Don, I'm off to the beach. And I remember thinking, I didn't think I signed up for shift work. I thought I signed up for my life. I dunno what that looks like, and there may well be a time when the Lord says, you know, it's time for you to step out of the public kind of ministry. I can't imagine that that will ever sort of take from me that sense that I'm his, and at whatever stage I am, I'm called to be his. Mm-hmm. Yes. I dunno what that will look like, where it will look like, but that call was so strong, Vic, that I never ever considered stepping out of it. There were times I didn't know whether I'd last. That was simply 'cause of the circumstances I was in, rather than the deep internal conflict that I was going through that I wanted to get out. I've never wanted to get out.

Vic Francis 26:43

So if you're a pastor and you wake up one day and feel like something shifted, how would you recommend a pastor begin to process that? Don?

Don Barry 26:54

We'd been in Cambridge 11 and a half years, absolutely loved the church and the people in the church, the town itself and had no desire to leave. But I went through this stage in my life, probably three, four months, where I started to feel profoundly and deeply unsettled, and I didn't know why. I rang a friend who, that I really trusted, and I explained what I was going through and, he then said to me, Don, do you think God might be preparing you to move from Cambridge? And my first response was kind of get behind me, Satan, I didn't want even think about that. But he used an illustration that you'll know, well, Susan, as a gardener, and my wife was a gardener, and he said to me, you know, Don, when you wanna move a tree or a reasonable size bush, you never just dig it up and move it 'cause the shock will kill it. You dig it around and you unsettle it, you shake it loose, and then at another time you come back and he said, do you think God might be digging around you? That was a new thought to me, and I didn't know what to do with it, but as that sense of being unsettled continued, I prayed about it, Karen and I prayed about it. Suddenly, within a month, I'd got four invitations to pastor other churches. Now, that had never happened to me before. That wasn't happening on a weekly basis, you know? Yeah. And then on top of that, as we continued to pray, I was at a pastors' conference and two people completely unrelated and without each other knowing what had said, they came up and spoke the exact same words to me. They said, Don, you're supposed to leave your church. You're gonna go to a city. And that was within, oh, probably five minutes of each other. And a week later I was in another meeting with an American pastor and he looked at me and he said, are you thinking of moving your church, from your church? And I said, I'm trying not to. And he said, no, you are supposed to leave your church, gonna go to a city. Mm. So that completely u pturned our apple cart. If you're going through an uncertain season, I think you've gotta discern between, do I need to get a grip on this and battle through, or is God saying something to me? For me, that was prayer, that was counselling from other people that I trusted, that was asking the Lord, Lord, what are you saying here? If you're asking me to move, you'll need to confirm it. And he did so dramatically, quite supernatural.

Vic Francis 29:07

That is a, a beautiful summary of how to approach those uncertain feelings. How about for you, Susan? Um, you have moved, maybe half a dozen times or four or five times from what you're saying before. Has that come with it, a review or some sort of reassessment each time?

Susan Goldsack 29:26

I think there's something that does stay rooted, both for me and my husband, who we entered this together, we were commissioned together, that we did make a commitment that was between us and God, not necessarily with the Salvation Army, that when we were asked to go, we would go. And so in one of the settings where we didn't feel it was time, we had to really do the, the, the soul search, seek Godly counsel. And then in what we considered was obedience to what we, um, really trusted the leading was we then saw how God had gone before us. And so it's not always clear cut. And it's not always what might seem to be the best thing when you consider family. And um, you know, there's a whole lot of things that impact that. But sometimes it's that call. And for us personally, a, a covenanted response to God in that that holds us. And so God will continue to lead and grow us as long as we remain given over to his purposes within this human, designed system, which frustrates us enormously sometimes, and in other times is just the gift of that gives us security and a joy in the spaces where we are. Look, it's total reliance on the Spirit to lead us. Mm. And he does that in different ways sometimes after the decision, you see it pan out.

Vic Francis 31:08

I guess there's an aspect of that original call too, Susan. You are a, yeah, you are called to the Salvation Army in a sense. So that system will serve you and it will be flawed, of course, but yes, as you say, often it will be a gift and in Don's situation the system has been perhaps a little more free in terms of exploring the call yourself. But it sounds like you're both saying the same thing at the end of the day, so good counsel and going to God. And, you know, maybe if in doubt don't, sort of hanging tough for a while and seeing what God is leading and guiding rather than some sort of knee-jerk reaction.

Susan Goldsack 31:41

And I think over the years you develop, um, that discernment with God or that trusting in God. I mean, my call, I really felt strongly God's call for me as a 16-year-old. But we didn't enter our formal training till I was 36, but I had no doubt all those years that God was still in the preparing and so in those career choices and things that God was in that even though it wasn't at that time, and so there's those anchors that hold you to trust in God for it.

Don Barry 32:19

It's interesting, Vic, when you say, if in doubt stay. When we were going through that process of prayer, initially God was quite quiet and, um, Karen and I prayed through, a month we'd set aside. And at the end of it we talked about whether we had any sort of sense of what God was saying. Both of us had nothing and so I said, all right, I'll battle my way through this unsettled period. We won't go, we will stay here. Then that God really stepped in, in quite a supernatural way. But, but without that I wouldn't have gone. It was that sense of, I need to get through this. I'm not just moving 'cause I'm a little unsettled. If I'm gonna move, I want direction, you know, and God was so gracious in giving it. Yeah.

Vic Francis 32:59

Fantastic. Well, thank you both for helping explore aspects of calling and ministry and, and for how long we might stay in the one place. In the next session, we're gonna look further at things like gifting and resilience and transitions. So we will be right back.

Vic Francis 33:49

Welcome back to Don Barry and Susan Goldsack and our How Long, Lord? exploration of calling and tenure and discerning where God is leading. I've been wondering about the calling and about our individual gifts. The way I pastor would probably be different the way you do, Don, or the way you do, Susan. How do we, on top of our calling, explore the giftedness that we have and therefore how we outwork that calling. Don, have you got any thoughts about that?

Don Barry 34:20

In my secular employment, I was a school teacher, Vic, so there was always in me a sense of wanting to explain things well to people. And when I came into ministry, it, it kind of was a natural step over from teaching into teaching. Mm-hmm. And the, the gift I think that probably has largely marked my life and ministry has been that of a teacher of the word of God. Mm-hmm. I think when you step into a smaller church, obviously you're a general practitioner. Yeah. And you have to do lots more things other than simply immerse yourself in the scriptures and reading and, you know, doing theology or whatever it is. I, I found very quickly, I, I hated administration and was really bad at it, right? So in the early days, I talked with the leaders of the church, even though it was small and said, if you want the best from me, please, you need someone to do the finances and the administration. I also found out that I probably wasn't the greatest at pastoral visitation. Mm. I'm not sure that you wanted me at your bedside in the hospital. I, I did all that but it, it was those sorts of things, doing the sorts of things that I knew I wasn't good at that if you wanna burn yourself out, go down that track, so I talked with the leadership of our church and said, this is what I feel energises me and this is what I think is best. Can we staff the areas and volunteer the areas of my weakness, and then I can give you my best and you can give me yours. And the congregations that I served were absolutely delightful in humouring me, I suppose, in saying, yep, we'll do this. We'll do that. You do this. And so I kind of promised them and said, Hey, listen, if you'll do that, if you come on Sunday mornings, you won't go away thinking, where did he get that from? He must have done it at five to midnight last night. Right. Because it was empty and vacuous. I'll give you my very, very best. So I identified my gift fairly quickly and really tried to give myself to that.

Vic Francis 36:22

I think that's a really important thing, and it's a very helpful story of both you realising who you are or what you're gifted at, and the support of your congregation, which is a wonderful thing to hear. Susan, how about you? How have you observed this whole giftedness within a calling?

Susan Goldsack 36:41

I think, uh, early in the piece, I would've come with a sense of things that I had learned about myself out of my work prior to going into that full-time ministry. But over the period of time of different settings, as we moved, you start to recognise more and more those things that just never left you as being w hat other people saw and may have spoken to you as being seen as your strengths. As Don said, being able to commit time and particular energy into those things that fill your cup as long as you also have others who are partnering with you to ensure there's the broad sweep. I've discovered over the years, I guess, the deeper I go into God, the more I intentionally p ut myself before him, am discipled by Jesus, the more I come to understand who I am. Some of that's come out of near burnout. Mm-hmm. Where it was like burn out or actually discover how you are wired so that you can be well. And, and the confidence then helps you see where other arenas of giftedness are. W ithin a Salvation Army system where you are appointed, I think you have to identify those places clearly that you see are gifted and do some intentional learning and further development in those. J ust in recent times, something that's been reinforced to me when someone's challenged that thought of having work-life balance a nd they've described it as actually we are integrated beings. And I think, as God draws out of me things that are of strength, it's important for that to be integrated into the whole. And that's then seen in, I guess, the ministry you bring.

Vic Francis 38:39

My 2 cents worth. To add to what you guys have said would be, just the way that you can grow as a minister over some decades and we're all long enough in the tooth to have done decades. So the way that I do ministry in my early sixties versus in my early thirties is quite different. Palpably the same person, but with the experience of some of the things that I've learned along the way. So I guess it's worth thinking about the trajectory of growth that we do both as individuals and as ministers as you've been talking about. In talking to you guys and while mostly this will be heard on an audio podcast, we're doing this on Zoom, so I'm actually looking at your faces. We, between us have probably got the best part of a hundred years of ministry under our belts, which is quite a lot really. And one of the things that I admire, people who have been in ministry for some decades, is stickability or the sense of resilience, I suppose. And I want to ask you a question and there's part of me that I want to tell you the answer, but you can tell me your own answer, is do we just sometimes need to toughen up a little and respond to our calling and get our head down and just do the stuff. Or am I just getting old and cranky? Don, what do you think?'

Don Barry 39:56

Definitely old and cranky. No doubt.

Vic Francis 39:58

Thank you for that.

Don Barry 40:00

No, that's, you're welcome. You know when, when t he Lord said to Joshua, be strong and of good courage, we tend to imagine Joshua as being a young man. In fact, he was probably in his 80s, he'd spent 40 years in the wilderness. And he was an older gentleman. And I find that fascinating because I think as you grow in ministry, actually you need more courage, not less. And the reality is, as a young man, I was probably a bit gung-ho, and there'd be some situations I would dive into without thinking too much, get a jolly good hiding. And then as I've grown older, think I'm not gonna do that one again. And so sometimes it's more courage, not less. And I think also there's an element, s omebody once asked me how come I'd stayed so long at Gateway? And my answer was, sheer bloody mindedness. Mm. There's, there's a degree of stubbornness, you know, if you feel called, then you stay a nd you're just staying in that place through thick and thin, there's, there's something about that, that deepens and develops character. I know what it's like to go through really, really searching times in ministry. So I'm not saying this from an arm chair ride. But I do think there are times where real resilience develops as we dig our toes into the ground and refuse to be moved. I think of one of David's mighty men who won a great victory, it says he guarded a field of lentils and lentils, yeah, Philistines were coming at him and he just said, I'm not giving up my lentils. And he just stood there swinging his sword. And I'm not sure that I'll die over a field of lentils. Yes. But there are times when you dig your feet into the ground and say, I'm not moving.

Vic Francis 41:34

Mm. Susan, r esilience?

Susan Goldsack 41:38

My reference I guess is to knowing my why, knowing my call and that that is God's and his promises of his word. You know, my grace is sufficient. His power is known in my weakness. So, you know, that God has this abundance of sufficiency for us to keep on. And it is yes, digging in and digging into God, 'cause in myself, there would be times that it feels too hard. And, there's some hard call in digging in.

Vic Francis 42:19

Well, one of the things that we face, whether we are long term or short term, is transitioning. So 32 years, as I say, for me, and I'm in a time of transition. Don, you've done a transition after a long time, Susan, you've done a number of transitions and you oversee 13 churches and there are people transitioning in and out, I'm sure, of all of those churches all the time. So maybe a quick, because I'm conscious we'll do a podcast on transitions at some stage 'cause it's such a big topic, b ut any quick advice that you would give in transition. Susan, maybe we'll start with you.

Susan Goldsack 42:57

I think, one, um, early piece is to acknowledge that there will be grief within a transition, both for yourself and for those around you, be that family or the church family. So acknowledging some of those realities. I t's helpful to have good lead in times a nd know that for some transition on the other side it's also a long journey, it's, it's not an instantaneous it's sweet. G ood communication and take time to watch and listen, both what's around you, but also that watching, listening for God's Spirit.

Vic Francis 43:37

Very helpful. Thank you, Don?

Don Barry 43:39

Oh man, that was excellent, Susan, and I pretty much said everything that I would want to say. Um, especially that grief thing. I hadn't thought of that until you mentioned it, but I, I know leaving Cambridge, Karen really worked her way through some of that. Yeah. I probably would say make sure you've got plenty of lead in time. That would be what I'd emphasise. The transition that we've been through in Gateway, we've really been on, on this journey for a decade. We started talking about it as we were approaching our 60s and the transition took place when it fully, when we were probably about 68, so we took a long time just developing it. Just taking the time as much as it's possible to, to give good lead in and making it as seamless as possible.

Vic Francis 44:26

Thank you both for those pearls of wisdom and there will be people who will listen to this, who are in transition, or approaching transition, that would be incredibly helpful. Well, as we come towards the close of this podcast, one of the things I ask all of my guests is what gives you hope? And so, Susan, what gives you hope?

Susan Goldsack 44:47

That we have a living God. There is still more, there is still that full revelation of the kingdom to come and he's invited us into it. That gives me great hope that actually God's sovereign and he's invited us in. And so yeah, why not be in, in on the journey with him?

Vic Francis 45:09

Indeed, that gives me hope too. Thank you for sharing that. Don, what gives you hope?

Don Barry 45:13

Again, wonderful answer, Susan. And probably the only thing I would add to that is just the sense of God's amazing faithfulness. In times when I kind of wondered if we would get through, I can look back and say he has been unbelievably faithful to those crisis moments in the past, and the sense that whatever comes in the future, he will be there in that and for that as well.

Vic Francis 45:38

Thank you. Thank you. The other thing I ask our guests is to pray for our pastors. And I'm a pastor so it would be lovely if you pray for me, but all throughout New Zealand and maybe people would be listening in other parts of the world, but t o pray for the pastors who probably do it tough sometimes, who give out a lot themselves as you well know. So Don, maybe we could ask you to kick that off and Susan, you could wind up for us.

Don Barry 46:03

Be delighted to. Father, we thank you for your incredible faithfulness and grace to us. We thank you for the unbelievable privilege of allowing us to shepherd your people to be involved in your enterprise in terms of the body of Christ, we regard it as an incredible privilege and I pray for people, Lord, who are carrying both that privilege and the deep sense of responsibility that goes with it. I really pray, Lord, for some of the shepherds who may be struggling right now as they're listening to this podcast with that overwhelming sense of responsibility and whether things are working out in a way that they hope they might, Lord, I just pray that you'd put a deep sense of hope to rise up in their hearts and in their lives, and to dig their feet into that lentil field and say, I'm not moving. Lord, I pray for any sense of despondency and ask that by your kindness and grace, you would undergird those leaders and lift them up. Bless them, bless their families, Lord, who so carry the burden with them. We thank you again for the privilege, and I just ask that your grace and kindness would be on those who are listening and ask it in Jesus name and for his sake. Amen.

Vic Francis 47:21

Amen. And Susan was going to be finishing with a prayer, but she has just disappeared off our recording, which seems very unfortunate. So, I think with that we will leave it, but Don and Susan, because she will get to hear this. For your work, for your work in the Salvation Army for Susan and Gateway for Don and other churches and movements that you've influenced, for your love for your church communities and the movements that you serve and for the communities that surround you both in your geographical area and in New Zealand, and for facing the challenges and being faithful to your calls. Well, I salute you too, I champion you and your holy callings in this uncertain world. It's been a great pleasure to be able to share this podcast with you, and God bless you.

Don Barry 48:10

Thank you, such an honour.

Vic Francis 48:37

Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes, and I'm back next Tuesday with another episode, in which we're taking a different tack, a Q&A where two youngish pastors ask an older, seasoned pastor their big questions of ministry. I hope you'll join me. God bless you.