For Pastors
Vic Francis combines his background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world.
For Pastors aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives.
For Pastors
Burning Questions
This week's podcast takes a different tack - a Q&A, where youngish pastors Amy Tait and Barry Dunn ask older, seasoned pastor Nigel Dixon their burning questions of ministry.
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PS: A big thanks to Joel Francis, for his genius in guiding his father towards getting this podcast out. Couldn't have done it without you!
Kia ora, I'm Vic Francis, and I'm combining my background as a journalist with decades of pastoring, national church leadership and practising as a supervisor and spiritual director to champion pastors and their holy calling in an uncertain world. This For Pastors podcast aims to inspire, encourage and help pastors and Christian leaders keep saying yes to the call of God on their lives. This week's podcast takes a different tack. Instead of the usual topics, we're having a Q&A, where youngish pastors ask an older, seasoned pastor their burning questions of ministry. Our wise pastor this week is Nigel Dixon, vicar of Holy Trinity Anglican, in Tauranga, and a man with a long history of pastoring, consulting and coaching churches and pastors in a variety of movements. Nigel, welcome today.
Nigel Dixon:Cheers.
Vic Francis:Lovely to have you here. Before we get to the questions, how about telling me a bit about yourself? How long have you been pastoring?
Nigel Dixon:It started in 1992. Prior to that, I'd done a degree in economics, been a teacher and ended up working for the church that I was part of, became an associate, then did a sabbatical, went to Regent College for a year and then came back and led the church until 2008. Long story short, had a burn out at the end of that time. Wow. Which was a significant, a deep dive facing me.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:And quite a dark time. I was in depression for a couple of years. At the end of that, kind of working through some stuff, I set up a business and just quietly started doing some coaching and tried to find solid ground again. I kinda lost a world, but ironically ended up consulting in about 15 different denominations.
Vic Francis:Yes, yes.
Nigel Dixon:I wrote a book called Villages Without Walls, and that opened a lot of doors. One of the things that amazes me is that, I felt a total church failure. Yeah. But other churches welcomed me in and it's way easier to be a consultant.
Vic Francis:Than to be a pastor?
Nigel Dixon:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You walk away, you give all this great advice and you walk away. But I did that for seven years and I slowly ended up doing a lot of work with Archbishop Justin. He had just become Bishop of Wellington in those days and I ended up setting up the training and doing reviews of parishes and I slowly became an Anglican. Mm. Even though I still don't think I am one. So, I'm kind of this weird Pentecostal, Anglican, confused guy, really.
Vic Francis:Well, I've, I've called you wise. And, so, so you're telling me it's easier to do something else than pastoring and you're this confused guy. I think though, uh, it makes you very useful in terms of talking to young pastors. What do you remember most about being a young pastor?
Nigel Dixon:A lot of your early days as a young pastor is being desperate to please your seniors. Ah, yes. I mean, I loved the chance to have full-time ability to do what I felt called to do. But it was mixed in a maze of all these guys who you look up to as well. And it was a male world back then too. Yes.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:It was very hierarchical. So I experienced going into a world where you, you really wanted to please people and it felt quite performative, really.
Vic Francis:I wonder if that contributed to your burnout as well.
Nigel Dixon:Ultimately some of that did. Yeah. I'm an INFP, so I'm kind of not wired for leadership.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:I think it's a deep irony, the journey God's taken me on. And I have no regrets, I've loved it. But yeah, I would've picked somebody else. If I was God. And in those days, everyone was an alpha male who was in leadership it seemed. You, you probably remember those days.
Vic Francis:I do.
Nigel Dixon:And it was like the strong personality, it was equated with leadership. But there was a big downside to that. And I think we live in the wake of that still But I loved teaching, loved being able to study the Bible, loved having time. And I love people. I love hanging out with people. I was definitely wired to be a teacher-pastor, some of the other parts of the job I found really challenging.
Vic Francis:We're about to give some advice to the burning questions of a couple of young pastors. What's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
Nigel Dixon:When I first became a pastor, I remember Jono Turner, who headed up Christian Fellowship in Palmerston North. He said to me, we work for a God who never sleeps, but you must.
Vic Francis:Beautiful.
Nigel Dixon:You know, he was touching that workaholic thing, because it's a very intangible job. You never feel like you've done it.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:And, uh, that, that was really helpful to me.
Vic Francis:That's very much a wise piece of advice, I think. I remember someone saying to me, we overestimate what we can achieve in one year and underestimate what we can achieve in five years. And I think there was an aspect of the same idea is that, we are driven to succeed, I guess, and maybe in our youth or in our desire to please or prove God or, or people. And the ability to sleep, slow down, take rest. If we're gonna be medium and long-term pastors, I'm sure is very important. Nigel, just tell us a little bit about Nigel the person.
Nigel Dixon:Married to Carolyn. We got 40 years next year. So, um, we got four kids. We've got four grandsons. Mm. Yeah, they're all spread around the country or in Australia. Carolyn and I have got a caravan. We love to get out when we can, which is hardly ever. And, um, we're recently arrived in Tauranga, so we're still, looking for a house I love music. Just started a jazz church, actually. Just 'cause I love music. I'm kind of a classic introvert. I've always had a love for basketball, but my body's given up on me. And I've gone back to playing chess.
Vic Francis:The chess playing introverted, jazz loving, not sure he is in the right job in the first place, wise pastor. Shall we take that as a basis to go to some burning questions of some of our emerging New Zealand pastors?
Nigel Dixon:I'll give it a good go.
Vic Francis:Fantastic. Let's do that. So after the break, we'll introduce our first young pastor and find out his burning question. Kia ora, and welcome to Barry Dunn from the Rhema Family Church in Whangarei. Barry, greetings and welcome to the Burning Questions episode of the For Pastors podcast with my wise guest, Nigel Dixon.
Barry Dunn:Thank you guys for having me.
Vic Francis:Lovely to have you here. Before we get into your questions, Barry, it would be great for us to meet your church. Could you tell us a little bit about the Rhema Family Church?
Barry Dunn:Yeah, so Rhema Family Church, we sit just south of Whangarei, on a 12 acre block. Wow. We've been here for 40 years, so we turn 40 this year, which we're really excited about. Mm-hmm. I've been pastoring since 2019 and it's been a real honour and a privilege and a bit of a journey. But the Lord's been good and I thank him for his grace.
Vic Francis:That is fantastic. What were you doing before you were pastoring and what led you into accepting the call to pastor?
Barry Dunn:I kind of knew at an early age, I'd been born again. The call of God was on my life, but before then I went into teaching. So I was a health and phys ed teacher, but I taught in other subject areas as well. And became an assistant principal for six of those years. And so leadership was the call of my life. So, I'd been blessed in that way. It was a good preparation time actually.
Vic Francis:Was it a difficult thing to leave teaching and embrace pastoring as a call?
Barry Dunn:I didn't see it that way. I really felt the ruffling of the feathers, if you understand that kind of a metaphor, towards the end of my teaching career and I was just gonna say, Lord, I'm ready to go.
Vic Francis:Oh, that's fantastic. Tell me, what would be a distinction of the Rhema Family Church? What would I expect to see if I came and visited?
Barry Dunn:Well, we're obviously focused on family, so we're multi-generational. Mm. And we have great worship, praise and worship team, and we really focus on our children's ministries. Yep. Which is really great. And yeah we've got, we've got good team, lots of servers in the in the house and so we've been really blessed.
Vic Francis:That's beautiful. Barry, tell us a little bit about yourself. More personally, family, maybe, or what do you enjoy doing outside of church?
Barry Dunn:Yeah, so, I'm been married for 21 years to my beautiful wife Naomi. We have four children. My eldest daughter is 12 and then I've got three boys under her, so 10, seven and a 17 month old. And so if I do look a little bit tired, it's because I haven't had any sleep since 2013.
Vic Francis:2013. I'm a father of four. I'm pleased to say that they're all grown up and some of them have their own children now. So they're doing the hard yards themselves. Total respect for you. Total respect. So Barry, um, uh, coming to your burning question, what question do you have for us today?
Barry Dunn:Yeah. So my question comes from Revelations 2, actually, is how do we keep our first love? And I think that's, uh, such an important question because, I'm a bit of a word man, I love reading the Bible and I love reading my word. And there are three instances where, um, the people put forth their resume, for instance, and say, we've done some great things, we've prophesied in your name, we've done some miracles and and in Revelations 2, the Lord says, Hey, look, I know your labours. But there is this one thing that is lacking. There is this one thing that you're missing out on. And I think the danger here for us as pastors is that we can have this measure of our spiritual success based on all this busy stuff that we do in church life and think, yeah, I'm okay with that. But heaven kind of sees things differently.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Barry Dunn:And I think it's important for all pastors to remember our why. Yeah.
Vic Francis:Oh, that first love is such an important question, which is a good opportunity to bring in Nigel Dixon. Nigel, it's a, it's a big deal, isn't it, for us as pastors, that first love thing in amongst the busyness of our ministry life. How would you, uh, advise Barry in this important area?
Nigel Dixon:I don't think there's any pat answers here. Mm-hmm. I mean this is a deeply personal question for all of us 'cause we're all wired really different. If I could start from just a basic level and then try and get more personal, I'll fire something out and we can talk about that. I think if we think of calling, most of all to be a, a leader and to have a sense of calling from God, a calling comes to us. It's really personal and Paul Stephens calls it, God summons us and he summons us to himself. A call comes to someone, not to something. So like you said, you were aware of this calling to lead and a call from God way before you left teaching. And I think there's this sense in which God summons us and everything we do from then on is a response to this grace that has been offered us. He's called us and most of our lives is figuring out what the hell this meant because it takes a lifetime to fulfill the call of God. So the first thing I'd say is you got summoned and that's the primary thing. But then we have all these other myriad of other callings. Like you're also called to be a husband and a dad. So any pushback on that or thoughts?
Barry Dunn:Yeah, so just coming back to the first love thing. When it's all said and done and we're standing before the judgment seat of Christ and we kind of unfold our resume to the Lord, it says this, these are the things that I've accomplished to my life. My question was, how do we prioritise what heaven prioritises? And I think, at the moment, it, it's so easy for us to kind of get caught up in the busyness of ministry and the busyness of what we're doing right now and think we're okay with that. And we've neglected the things that are most important. And I'm just, as a young pastor, you know, I'm six years in, in this. How do we navigate that?
Nigel Dixon:I think if we go back to when we fell in love with God for the first time. For me it was, it was going for walks and talking with God. And I got immersed in scripture in a way that shocked me that became this lens I started to see God through as well as obviously experiencing through the Spirit as well. And, um, one of the things I noticed when I got into ministry was how my spirituality shifted, and, um, so much of my spirituality was toward the sermon, praying for this that the church needed, praying in finance. My spirituality got more functional. And when I was in it and passionate and this was the revolution, I would've said, nah, nah, I haven't changed.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:But a slow change happened because at the end of that 17 years of working in that church, I burned out and I, I didn't have a spirituality to live by, because I didn't have a focus for it, because actually the church had become the focus and God had kind of disappeared somewhere into the ether and I would've looked you in the eyes said that was never the case. It was quite a shock to me, it took me a couple of years to really start to find an intimacy with God again. And one of the traps of ministry is forgetting that most of all, we get to kneel before God and we get to devote ourselves to God, but the performance of the machine means our passion drives us towards performance, you know, and a lot of us get into ministry through passion, and that gets transferred to the performance.
Vic Francis:Nigel, can I ask you how you rekindled that first love relationship that maybe had dribbled away under those pressures of ministry?
Nigel Dixon:It took a while 'cause I stopped dead, 'cause I was in depression. But there was a few things that that helped. I had nothing external to focus on, a nd so I had to find God again and I had to start talking deeply, honestly to God. And, yeah, I got into liturgy then 'cause I couldn't find any words to express what I felt. And it was only the Psalms in Celtic liturgy that probably rescued me when I didn't know what to say anymore. So that was, that was pretty dark. But it's funny, you, you have to look at why you became so performative and why that drive to, to be all that God intended you to be got so backward. And I mean one of the things I kind of say to young leaders is you've actually got to like your life, otherwise you'll end up blaming God a t some point. And I did, I was really angry with God for those two years, 'cause I felt I'd served really well and I'd grown something really big and then it swallowed me up, and so you have to look at, okay, what is this doing to my family? What is this doing to my, that I actually have no life myself now, all my friends are gone. Because I have no time for them, you know? And you can't lie to yourself at some point.
Vic Francis:I think, Barry, so many things of what we do in ministry feel like they are the real thing in terms of this putting Jesus first, 'cause it's like we're preaching a sermon, we're leading people to Jesus. We're baptising people, we're praying for people and seeing ministry happen. Uh, my take on the first love thing is, it's Jesus who is our first love. So it's not even our study of the scriptures or our building the church, it's certainly not the law, it's not the programmes, and it feels like we've gotta continually come back to the place that Jesus is. We, we would hope that we won't have the breakdown aspect that Nigel had to go through, but keep coming back to Jesus. Another thing I've often thought about is building your foundations early in your ministry is really important, 'cause if you take shortcuts early, it finds you out later. So if you're not in the scriptures or you're not in good relationship with your wife or your family, or you're not in submission in some way, then those things are gonna find you out a little later. I mean, does that make sense? Is that helpful?
Barry Dunn:Yeah, it was excellent. Thank you for that. Thank you Nigel as well for your honesty. Really appreciate you opening up.
Nigel Dixon:When I touched on the callings thing at the start and said, you're called to be a dad, called to be a father. I've journeyed with so many people who've sacrificed their family. Their ministry has basically alienated their kids ultimately. One of the things I think I did right, was I decided early on that if everybody's kids followed Jesus and not mine through my ministry, it was a total failure and, and my kids went through church life and loved it. And even though my son joked that I was pathetically paid, and all his friends' parents earned more, but he, he actually loved the life we had. It was a real community. But what this particular day, Carolyn wasn't well, and she said, please don't go to church. And I'm so glad I rang up and said, you're gonna have to find another preacher, you're gonna have to do it without me 'cause Carolyn needs me. And for her, that was a crucial moment that she was more important than my ministry. She wasn't more important than Jesus, but actually Jesus needed me to be there. And I feel like ministry and first love for God get put together and it's not true. It's a lower relegated calling, which I would argue our family comes before that. It's a vocational calling, which will change in the, you know, like, you don't know where you are gonna be five years time from now. But yeah, I look back and that was one of the good choices I made.
Vic Francis:I think, it's important to remember who's gonna be there at the end. And that comes into the family thing. It's like you, you want, you want your wife and you want your kids and prioritising them is a really important thing. I'm sure that's what you're doing and, how important that is. Barry, there's a question that I ask everyone who is a guest on our podcast, and that is what gives you hope.
Barry Dunn:I love that question. I've actually asked a number of senior pastors, I, I'm just that way of mind and if I get around a room of some elder men, like you guys, for instance, and I kind of say, what are the highlights of ministry? And nine times out of 10, they would all say the same thing. They said, we love to see change in people. It's not like the travelling around the world or speaking in the stadiums and that kind of stuff, but it comes down to ground level where you see God change somebody. And for me, when I hear somebody get up and share a testimony of the goodness of God in their lives, that gives me hope. That's just like, oh man, that makes everything all worthwhile. That really blesses me and keeps me going.
Vic Francis:Well, Barry, it's been a pleasure to meet you today. We've never met and, you and Nigel have never met, so it's great to be connecting on this podcast. Thank you for your question, which is one that pastors everywhere will be challenged by. And we wish you well as you continue your work with your church and among your Whangarei community. And so we wanna bless you today. God bless.
Barry Dunn:Thank you guys. Appreciate it.
Nigel Dixon:Nice to meet you, Barry. Cheers.
Vic Francis:Well, Nigel, thank you for your thoughts on that, and as Barry mentioned, such an honest and open story of having hit the wall, I guess, in that time. How are you today, how has that all played out and where does it leave you today?
Nigel Dixon:It's taken me on a really different journey tha n I planned on. I mean part of the journey for me early on I, I call it getting differentiated, where the people who you, who's clapping mattered to you, you had to actually face that there was a bit of an idolatry. Whose clapping are you seeking? And uh, remember meeting with this army guy who I coached, who'd been through burnout and his dad had Alzheimer's. And he had gone into the army purely because of his father being army, to get his affirmation. And I said, how does it feel that he'll never clap? He'll never affirm you. And I, I think one of the challenges of first love is that we, we know the joy, but actually pleasing God is where it's at. But for me, a lot of the time it was looking around, are people happy, you know, and, um, God had to drive that outta my system over a period of time. So I'm, I'm grateful for the dark, but it's not fun.
Vic Francis:Pleasing God is where it's at. That's probably a good place for us to take a break now. When we return, we'll have more burning questions. We'll be right back. Welcome back to our second guest, Amy Tait from Korimako Vineyard Church in Palmerston North. Amy, greetings and welcome to the Burning Questions episode of the For Pastors podcast with my wise guest, Nigel Dixon.
Amy Tait:Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to pick both of your brains today.
Vic Francis:It's lovely to have you, Amy. Now as we start, let's get the full disclosure piece out of the way. Uh, New Zealand is a small country, and both Nigel and I know you already, Amy. I know you because we both pastor Vineyard churches and we'll hear about your church in a moment. But please tell us how you know Nigel.
Amy Tait:I've known Nigel since I was a teenager. I attended his church and I am wonderful friends with one of his daughters, and we were both bridesmaids at both of our weddings. So I have known Nigel for a long time and it's quite a treat to be able to do this with Nigel and yourself, Vic.
Vic Francis:It is a treat, isn't it? And it's lovely to be able to ask these questions. Before we get into the questions, though, it'd be lovely to meet your church. Tell us about Korimako Vineyard.
Amy Tait:My husband and I planted Korimako in 2019. Mm-hmm. So later this year we will be six. So it feels like it's gone really fast and we've had a lot of fun. And it feels quite significant now to be getting into kind of six years of leading Korimako. And, what else could I tell you?
Vic Francis:Korimako itself. What does that mean?
Amy Tait:Oh, yeah, so korimako is the native bellbird here in, Aotearoa, so that's got some significant deeper meaning for us as a church and how that came about.
Vic Francis:That's beautiful. And what would make it distinct? What would be some of the markers you think of Korimako Vineyard?
Amy Tait:I think probably for us something that's important to us and maybe a bit of a distinctive is trying to be quite intentional about being on a bicultural journey as a church. We absolutely haven't made it in any respects, but we are committed to continuing to grow in that sort of space. And yeah hopefully every year can look back and say that we've grown a little bit more.
Vic Francis:And what would that look like on a, a visiting basis?
Amy Tait:Well, we try and use a lot of Te Reo Māori in our greetings and we always wanna have Te Reo Māori in our worship. We've been starting with the Lord's Prayer in Māori. We often finish with the benediction in Māori at the end of our services if it leans in that way. Yeah, it's amazing how quickly as a church you can, like all our church can say the Benediction together off by heart. We don't even need to put it in the screen. We've been doing it for a couple of years and hopefully we might be able to do that with the Lord's Prayer at some stage soon as well.
Vic Francis:What a beautiful aspect of that church plant. But as you say, six years is quite a long time now, so, um, congratulations on getting through, even during COVID and all sorts of things through your six years into your birthday ahead. So Amy, what's your question today? And we'll then introduce Nigel to the conversation.
Amy Tait:So I wanted to ask you guys what has helped you create a strong, sustainable volunteer culture, especially in seasons where people are more time poor and hesitant to commit. And how do you navigate the tension of needing volunteers and not wanting to overburden your core group?
Vic Francis:Wow, that's a great question, one that we all wrestle with, I'm sure. Nigel, we'll go over to you, I think.
Nigel Dixon:Cheers, it's a really big question 'cause there's a big question of sustainability. And actually loving our people. And there's a high pressure to be performative and to fill every gap, and I'm, I'm in an Anglican church and I call it death by roster, y ou know how many people it takes to make something happen. Could I peel it back a little bit, 'cause I, I really resist the term volunteer. Because it's an organisational word. And it leads into the church as an organisation. And how do we do the things that we need to do to function as a meeting and as an event sometimes, and I, I wonder if we think of us as a community, how do we get people's hearts in doing what they're called to do? I think a lot of people are driven to please us for a period of time, and at some point that wears out because they really didn't want to do it. They just wanted to be seen to be helping, to be that person and that drivenness to externalise is quite big. There's a really interesting guy I was listening to called Han, who wrote a book called Non-things, and in it he's talking about how the younger generation don't get to externalise anymore. Everything is an information bite. So you put stuff on social media and there's no story, and you record an album and then you put it on Spotify and there's no tangibility. And we have a deep need to externalise, but how we nurture that so people don't externalise in the wrong way, so it's unsustainable for them. So I guess my comment would be, I think it's dangerous to get people involved until we know their hearts. And if we get their hearts then I think we get people for life. Is that making sense?
Amy Tait:Yeah.
Vic Francis:Getting, uh, getting people involved for life seems like a, a wonderful possibility, w hen so often perhaps somebody's been involved for six months and sends the email and says, I can't do it anymore, and leaves you in the lurch, which probably you have experienced from time to time, Amy.
Amy Tait:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Vic Francis:So what are the things, Nigel, that do lead us towards that longer sense of, I don't know, commitment to the cause? I guess it's the cause, isn't it?
Nigel Dixon:Thomas Merton says this really interesting thing, he said it in the sixties, so it's profoundly futuristic. He called the life of sin the life where we wrap like cloths around ourselves our experiences and the things we achieve and we do. And he called that the life of sin, that we basically have something to present to the world is us. And I think, you know, some of the megachurches have really exploited that sinful desire to be seen and to be someone. And it all fell over in COVID where the performance couldn't happen and the machine kind of ran down and it revealed that many churches were organisations, not communities. And I think we're inching our way out of that crisis. But I think more and more there's a desire to be local and to be embedded in a community, but it does take time to build a disciple who actually serves and we don't have a servant culture anymore.
Vic Francis:So, Nigel, if we we need this time, but we also need to set up the chairs on Sunday, i s there some sort of halfway process
Nigel Dixon:It's really tricky, especially for the high maintenance church, which is we use a building that's not ours and you end up with this little core doing everything. I was talking to a young leader who's in this situation in a quite a crisis. They've got quite a large church, but just a campus, so they don't get a lot of decision making power. And the question I asked her was, do the church know how you feel? And she said, no, we've never talked to people to tell how it's affecting us. So I said to her, are you a community or you a pretend church? And that was really hard for her because actually she's never felt free to actually talk. Really gifted leader, but trapped in this culture of appearance that we've got it together.
Amy Tait:Right.
Nigel Dixon:And I, I think heart to hearts are really important. And heart to hearts on Sunday are really important, because we're either a family or we're not. And if you say, look, this is our biggest challenge right now. Don't like talking about it here, but we're wearing out, people lean in and I think one of the strengths of New Zealand is we're a vulnerability culture. We lean into vulnerability, we lean away from invincibility. We don't easily do that as leaders. We feel like we've gotta have a product that's working.
Vic Francis:Just coming back to you, Amy, how does it work itself out at Korimako and how have some of these longer term plans been able to be enacted?
Amy Tait:Yeah. I quite like what you're saying, Nigel, about resisting even the term volunteer. I suppose when we talk about, you know, when we are needing to boost teams and stuff, we generally language it saying, you know, like whānau jobs basically is how we term it, that, that we are a whānau and things need to happen, like in all households. We'll pull together to make things happen. So, yeah, I really like using that terminology and that way of looking at getting things done together, and I suppose it kind of feels like it goes on in cycles in church life for us, that you have an appeal for everyone to muck in that teams are a bit low and often people respond. But then there's often a small space of time, everything's fabulous, but quickly people drop off with the way life is. And I understand it. My husband and I have four kids as well, and they're all teenagers and busy and everything. But it still doesn't change the reality that you need a team on a Sunday and through the week to make things happen and to be sustainable. So I suppose I generally find it a challenge that's often sitting there.
Vic Francis:I've been thinking, Amy, about the way that you pay, in inverted commas, your volunteers. Somebody said to me early in my pastoral life about the non-financial ways of paying. So there's things like giving your time, including volunteers in your stories and, small gestures, sort of the movie ticket type thing, but bringing them right into community and the story of the church and celebrating and opportunities to develop who and what they are, I think, are really important. I know at our church, we're 35 years old as a church, and we've been in our own building for 10 years, but for 25 years we set up in school halls and pubs and other churches and sometimes three different places every Sunday. And it's so much a part of our story, it's like when we do new people, I say, you know, we're a church with a building now, but we're a church that's based on our roll up your sleeves, our can do, our Kiwi sort of thing. And, I think if you're gonna enjoy our church, you're gonna be that sort of a person. You're gonna want to be involved because somehow in our DNA we've been shaped like this. And it's great story to tell. And I wonder for you at the beginning of that journey, or early in that journey, t o be almost making a hero of the fact that we are a community, not only in terms that we like each other and that we worship together, but we are a real family and muck in. Yeah. And so making it a virtue of the way that we do church.
Amy Tait:Yeah. That's really good. I love that.
Vic Francis:Nigel, any other thoughts there on volunteers?
Nigel Dixon:I do think we are dealing with a generational shift.
Vic Francis:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:It's been very curious being in an Anglican setting where people have done jobs for 50 years and nobody has to pat their heads, and say well done. There's this formation around faithfulness that is deep in the DNA, um, it's really curious for me as an ex-Pentecostal, whereas you, you didn't praise somebody after three weeks they'd give up because their ministry wasn't being recognised or something, and I think it's a cultural shift where there's an immediacy about everything now and I think we have to build a culture that's so different to what's forming people. So for me there's no swift solution to this. I agree with Vic. I think we should celebrate how things happen and who makes them happen really well, but it is really hard to shift a culture overnight.
Vic Francis:I wonder too, whether we make the volunteer part of the story as opposed to we're creating these great teams so that we can do the work of the ministry, but maybe the working with our volunteers is actually the ministry that we are called to do. As frustrating as it can be, we tend to think, well, I've got a gap, that's a nuisance, I have to fill it, or that person's let me down, or whatever. But maybe it's in that story that is the ministry that we are doing. And so I wonder whether that could be helpful as well. Almost a different way of looking at it, as opposed to, I need to get this sorted so I can do the thing that God's called me to do.
Nigel Dixon:The other thing also is we feel obliged for there not to be a gap. Like it's a, a leadership disaster. Yeah. Whereas the thing I'd argue is I think at the church experiencing a gap is a really good thing. Because people actually, a lot of calling comes out of need, but people don't see need 'cause we're too busy fixing everything. So people arriving and the chairs not being set up, I think that's okay.
Vic Francis:I do too. Nobody died because of the chairs not being set up. So it's that different approach. I mean, you hope that they will be set up, not that they'll die, but you realise all the things that you stressed about that probably didn't matter and maybe that's part of an answer to a different question, but it's still an important thing, I think, to pass on.
Nigel Dixon:I've got this great kids worker. She's basically rescued our church from old age oblivion. So they moved up with us to help rejuvenate the church really and so she took on all the family whānau stuff, whānau ministry, but she and Vaughn are walking through a really hard thing. Vaughn's got lymph node cancer. So he is doing chemo at the moment. And when I sat down with her, I said, Marg, I'm starting to feel like you can't do this anymore. And she just broke down, and, and she's an amazing woman. Like she's gonna let her own church one day. But I, I had to let her do life.
Amy Tait:Yeah.
Nigel Dixon:But God's opened something else up, which I didn't predict happening. B ut I'm very grateful as the leader I didn't hang onto her 'cause she knows we've got her back. We haven't kicked her off staff, but she's just not having to do what was killing her while she's journeying with her husband, Vaughn. And I think, you know, God's good at this, but it's the grind which is the hardest to survive. But let the gaps happen. Amy, I really encourage you, just be really open. We haven't got this today because and if people don't feel a little bit of pain they'll stay in their pleasure.
Vic Francis:That sounds like a good one-liner to bring this conversation to a little bit of a conclusion. Amy, thank you and we do hope that this has been helpful in terms of thinking through some of those things with volunteerism. Um, Amy, there's a question that I ask every guest on this podcast, and that is what gives you hope?
Amy Tait:I was just talking about this with someone earlier in the week, that you do travel with a lot of tough stuff with people and I think sometimes when you're in a bit of season where there's multiple things like that happening, I'm always surprised by God's goodness in surprising spaces, really. And I think in all my journey as a Christian and leading a church, God surprising me with his goodness has always really kept me encouraged with hope, filled me with hope, and what's to come. So that would be, I think, the thing that comes to mind straight away is just the goodness of God continuing to pop up in my world and the worlds around me, just observing God being amazing.
Vic Francis:Look, thank you so much for joining us today, for your burning question, which I'm sure is a burning question to many who are in ministry and, um, from a couple of old guys, we wish you well as you continue your work with your church and among your Palmerston North community. So bless you today.
Amy Tait:Yeah, thank you so much for having me. That was really fabulous. I've taken a lot outta that.
Vic Francis:Isn't it great Nigel to be chatting to another generation coming through and to celebrate something of what Amy and the team at Korimako are doing?
Nigel Dixon:It is gutsy starting a community, you know, their age and stage in life.
Vic Francis:Yes, it really is.
Nigel Dixon:I mean, it's gotta come outta such call 'cause there's such a sacrifice involved.
Vic Francis:Absolutely. I do hope you've enjoyed these burning questions today, and the answers, during this podcast. And so if you have questions, please email me on vic@solace.org.nz, that's VIC at solace, SOLACE.org.nz and we may be able to feature you on a future podcast. Nigel, as we come to a close, I wonder if I could ask you to pray for Amy and for Barry, who we've talked to today, and indeed the pastors of New Zealand.
Nigel Dixon:Lord, we do give you Amy and Barry and the weight that they carry. And many leaders out there who are carrying some of the challenges that are painful sometimes. And it's a weight, sometimes that doesn't go away, but Lord may we know, Isaiah 46 talks about you are the one who carried Israel through the wilderness. And may they know that they're carried by you. That you are the carrier, God. Lord, unless you lead us, we are so stuffed. So I really pray that for Barry and Amy that you will give them the phenomenal insight they need to not just imitate everybody else, but to know the path that they're called to walk. So just really give them courage to follow what you say and to learn from everyone else and, uh, to feel no pressure to perform. But may every leader, Lord, know that they are, they're a loved one and that you are utterly committed to them. In Jesus name, amen.
Vic Francis:Amen. I want to thank you, Amy and Barry and Nigel, together championing pastors and their holy callings in an uncertain world. God bless you all. Thank you for listening to this episode of the For Pastors podcast. You can find more information about us in the podcast notes and I'm back next Tuesday with another episode, the last in this pilot series, which we're calling Doing Well, how do we as pastors maintain and thrive in our spiritual, mental and natural health while dealing with the rigours of ministry? I hope you'll join me. God bless you.